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View Full Version : Is S&V the new wave


bjk
01-11-2009, 01:21 PM
The number of successful serve and volley players on tour is pretty small: Cilic, Stepanek, Karlovic, that's about all that comes to mind. But Cilic and Stepanek just won tournaments, and Karlovic is at his highest ranking ever. With nearly every player on tour a baseliner, is serve and volley the future of the game? Nearly every player talks about "coming in," even though for some that means hitting a toothless approach shot before getting passed.

bjk
01-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Mardy Fish too, he's at his highest ranking. And for what it's worth, everybody's favorite low-ranker, Robert Kendrick, is now in the top 100.

Blade0324
01-11-2009, 01:28 PM
God I hope not. S&V is painful to watch and even more painful to play against.

Alexio92
01-11-2009, 01:29 PM
God I hope not. S&V is painful to watch and even more painful to play against.


hence why people do it

Mdubb23
01-11-2009, 01:32 PM
God I hope not. S&V is painful to watch and even more painful to play against.

I disagree--serving and volleying, in my opinion, makes for a very entertaining match.

The Pure One
01-11-2009, 01:36 PM
Those players are not like the ones that played the game a decade ago, since they come to the net ocasionally.

BTW, God forbid the the comeback of the tennis popularity killer. Boring to say the least. I rather view a painted wall dry. The S&V game always needed a baseliner to make the game watchable. S&V is like having time out or an official in a basketball game stopping the game every two seconds! That is one of the primary reasons the ATP went after slow-medium pace courts. Nobody is claiming the return of ultra fast courts, except Pete Sampras in his exo games. And do not get me wrong, slow pace game in clay (like the one two or three decades ago) is also equally boring.

oneguy21
01-11-2009, 01:41 PM
Cilic is not a serve and volleyer and I don't see it coming back. With polyester strings it's way too hard to put away balls continuously at the net.

S H O W S T O P P E R !
01-11-2009, 01:43 PM
I disagree--serving and volleying, in my opinion, makes for a very entertaining match.

Agreed, it's especially entertaining when you see both players at the net at once. Seeing an intense back-and-forth point in which the only passing shot is a lob is very fun to watch.

bjk
01-11-2009, 01:43 PM
It's true that they don't play serve and volley, it's more "look for a short ball and come in and hope for a floater." Except for Karlovic. But everybody from Nadal to Djokovic to Roddick is looking to "come in" and end points at the net.

Mdubb23
01-11-2009, 01:46 PM
Cilic is not a serve and volleyer and I don't see it coming back.

So true.

With polyester strings it's way too hard to put away balls continuously at the net.

So false. I hate to have to say this, but volleys are 99.9% technique, .01% equipment. Sure multis and gut give better feel at the net than polys, but you can't blame equipment for dumping an open-court volley, much less the disappearance of a style of play, and many people have been brainwashed to believe otherwise.

swedechris
01-11-2009, 02:11 PM
think players are increasingly looking for plays that will allow them to move in toward the net to set up fairly easy volleys. and a reason for that could be that the grinding out form the base line just takes too much out of you .. injuries and fatigue even if you win means your chances in your next match dwindle if your opponent spared his wheels in his. and also the fact that nadal and some other spaniards like ferrer and robredo came along may have forced some players to say, look i aint gonna win from the backcourt so.. i will go for it by coming in a bit more to the net.

Nadal_Freak
01-11-2009, 02:18 PM
Hopefully it never comes back. God I hated that style.

bjk
01-11-2009, 02:21 PM
I don't think it's coming back. But many of the young players are have all-court games, Sam Querrey is a good example of the prototype new player: tall, big serve, all-court game. Likewise Ancic and Cilic.

oneguy21
01-11-2009, 02:22 PM
So true.



So false. I hate to have to say this, but volleys are 99.9% technique, .01% equipment. Sure multis and gut give better feel at the net than polys, but you can't blame equipment for dumping an open-court volley, much less the disappearance of a style of play, and many people have been brainwashed to believe otherwise.

What I meant was polyester strings allow the passer to take a huge cut at the ball which would then cause it to really dip after it passes the net. It's not easy for players to volley those kind of balls even with the best feeling string.

bluetrain4
01-11-2009, 02:25 PM
I like variety of play.

I like attacking play.

I like variety of surfaces - and would like to see some (not all) courts sped up or and/orlower-bouncing so players can at least play some all-court tennis.

I agree that a lot of the old S&V was sublime, but that was usually when a S&V was paired against a baseliner. S&V contests (which were by and large just serve contests) were utterly painful to watch. Pete v. Goran was horrible to most people.

And, that's important to remember. We're not most people. Most TWers are tennis junkies and could watch any match. I could watch Goran v. Pete because it was Wimbledon, there was so much at stake. It didn't matter if every point was an unforced error. But, the actual tennis left much to be desired.

Mansewerz
01-11-2009, 02:26 PM
I'm hoping it does come back. Variety is what is needed.

Coaches aren't teaching serve and volley enough anymore. We need a great serve and volleyer to come to the top 10 to inspire the youth. It would help if they didn't slow down all the courts (getting rid of Carpet was incredibly stupid!), and then the coaches need to take action!

egn
01-11-2009, 02:58 PM
I would love to see it come back, but I would not like to see everyone doing it. Martina Navratilova vs. Chris Evert and Mcenroe vs. Borg and Sampras vs. Agassi was only so amazing because one volleyed amazingly and the other was a true baseliner, the two styles are great. S&V is gone now, but i would like to see at least more volleying. The top tier of players have come to use less and less volley, Federer even has slowed down on it since 2007 or so because all the courts are slowing down. They need to bring back fast grass, bring back carpet, make the indoor season rocket fast again. Make grass like it was in at least 2003. Make it so you have slow and fast hard courts, and fast grass courts and slow clay courts and carpet courts. Carpet courts always were quite entertaining it was like indoor grass. The game should not be suited towards one style, that is where success of the sport was in the 70s and 80s. There was a huge difference between slow and fast courts, now its all relatively the same.

miniRafa386
01-11-2009, 03:01 PM
four words for why serve and volley is not as much fun to watch and/or play as the modern baseline game- Men's Wimbledon Final 2008

J-man
01-11-2009, 03:02 PM
The number of successful serve and volley players on tour is pretty small: Cilic, Stepanek, Karlovic, that's about all that comes to mind. But Cilic and Stepanek just won tournaments, and Karlovic is at his highest ranking ever. With nearly every player on tour a baseliner, is serve and volley the future of the game? Nearly every player talks about "coming in," even though for some that means hitting a toothless approach shot before getting passed.Well you're not going to see an explosion of pure sever and volley players. But I think you might start seeing more and more players with big games start to use it more often.

JankovicFan
01-11-2009, 03:02 PM
There was a good example in Sunday's match, first set, when Stepanek easily popped a lob over Verdasco's head in textbook fashion. So I'm thinking, don't do that. The problem was they were both near the net.

Mdubb23
01-11-2009, 03:03 PM
What I meant was polyester strings allow the passer to take a huge cut at the ball which would then cause it to really dip after it passes the net. It's not easy for players to volley those kind of balls even with the best feeling string.

Fair enough--I agree with that.

oranges
01-11-2009, 11:18 PM
What is with you guys citing Marin as S/V player? He'll throw in an odd S/V, but he's not even a true all-courter. He's very Gulbis-like to me, huge baseline game and relatively competent at the net, using it every now and then.

hoosierbr
01-11-2009, 11:32 PM
S&V will come back b/c players, the younger generation coming up, will be watching what has made Federer, Nadal, Novak, etc. so good - it's having a variety of shots. Nadal wouldn't have won Wimbledon if he hadn't attacked more. Fed can serve and volley and win points at the net which has always given him a leg up on the field. Djokovic continues to spend time on his net game.

Players are always looking to get an edge and charging the net is one way to get it.

Sentinel
01-12-2009, 12:48 AM
Hopefully it never comes back. God I hated that style.
Totally agree.

Players should stand way back, next to the ballkid/linesman, and lob balls back and forth, no ?

Gorecki
01-12-2009, 06:20 AM
rofl... no?

coloskier
01-12-2009, 08:05 AM
God I hope not. S&V is painful to watch and even more painful to play against.

Now the truth comes out. People who don't like S&V usually get beat by it.

NamRanger
01-12-2009, 09:13 AM
Those players are not like the ones that played the game a decade ago, since they come to the net ocasionally.

BTW, God forbid the the comeback of the tennis popularity killer. Boring to say the least. I rather view a painted wall dry. The S&V game always needed a baseliner to make the game watchable. S&V is like having time out or an official in a basketball game stopping the game every two seconds! That is one of the primary reasons the ATP went after slow-medium pace courts. Nobody is claiming the return of ultra fast courts, except Pete Sampras in his exo games. And do not get me wrong, slow pace game in clay (like the one two or three decades ago) is also equally boring.



After going to slow-medium pace courts, professional tennis TV ratings dropped like a rock. Coincidence? I think not.


Tennis TV ratings and popularity was at an all time high during the 70s-80s, which was an golden era of S&V tennis. I don't see how anyone thinks S&V is boring, especially when S&V introduces more variety of shots and forces opponents to think rather than mindlessly bash away from the baseline.

Jonny S&V
01-12-2009, 09:22 AM
So true.



So false. I hate to have to say this, but volleys are 99.9% technique, .01% equipment. Sure multis and gut give better feel at the net than polys, but you can't blame equipment for dumping an open-court volley, much less the disappearance of a style of play, and many people have been brainwashed to believe otherwise.

Quoted for truth. Seriously, I see guys at my level (I'm 17, so upper-juniors) with chop volleys, and even on the pro tour. It annoys me to no end. They may hit them perfectly in practice, but they don't hit them OFTEN in practice... I split my time 60/40 between volleys and groundstrokes (in lessons, I do 40/35/25 serves/volleys/groundstrokes in practices) and I'm a pretty consistent volleyer, but my friends spend maybe 20% of there time at the net.

NamRanger
01-12-2009, 09:25 AM
Quoted for truth. Seriously, I see guys at my level (I'm 17, so upper-juniors) with chop volleys, and even on the pro tour. It annoys me to no end. They may hit them perfectly in practice, but they don't hit them OFTEN in practice... I split my time 60/40 between volleys and groundstrokes (in lessons, I do 40/35/25 serves/volleys/groundstrokes in practices) and I'm a pretty consistent volleyer, but my friends spend maybe 20% of there time at the net.


Oh so true. Junior tennis players today in the States don't even know what a volley is half the time. If you asked them to half volley they would probably go "huh?"

sureshs
01-12-2009, 09:26 AM
The number of successful serve and volley players on tour is pretty small: Cilic, Stepanek, Karlovic, that's about all that comes to mind. But Cilic and Stepanek just won tournaments, and Karlovic is at his highest ranking ever. With nearly every player on tour a baseliner, is serve and volley the future of the game? Nearly every player talks about "coming in," even though for some that means hitting a toothless approach shot before getting passed.

Cilic and Karlovic have height on their side. It is almost a waste of talent if they play on the baseline. Sort of like an Olympic weight lifter trying to focus on chess.

Jonny S&V
01-12-2009, 09:27 AM
Oh so true. Junior tennis players today in the States don't even know what a volley is half the time. If you asked them to half volley they would probably go "huh?"

A lot of juniors get guys closer to their age coming up and congratulating them after matches, I usually get the old guys saying "That's how tennis is supposed to be played." :)

NamRanger
01-12-2009, 09:27 AM
Cilic and Karlovic have height on their side. It is almost a waste of talent if they play on the baseline. Sort of like an Olympic weight lifter trying to focus on chess.



Safin and Berdych are tall; I don't see them S&V 24/7 :)

sureshs
01-12-2009, 09:28 AM
Safin and Berdych are tall; I don't see them S&V 24/7 :)

They are not as tall as Karlovic.

tintin
01-12-2009, 10:23 AM
I don't think it's coming back. But many of the young players are have all-court games, Sam Querrey is a good example of the prototype new player: tall, big serve, all-court game

please don't ever mention Querrey and all-court game in the same sentence!NEVER!
Querrey is sup-par at the net to say the least.Querrey is a baseliner who finishes up at net if he has to but he avoids approaching the net like the plague.So does Cilic

Ancic is more all-court player than these 2(Querrey-Cilic) combined.

Querrey,all-court player wtf:rolleyes: :lol:

In D Zone
01-12-2009, 10:26 AM
why not!

I think it's good for the game - add more variety to the different type and style of play.

Taller players know to take advantage of their height to finish the game at the net.

If Safin and Berdych were to be more proactive moving to the net - they'll be even more tougher to beat.

Reality:
In order to win or go deeper into a tournament - coaches are starting to advocate their players to add a little of the net game to their war chest. I don't think there will be a more pure S&V players like Karlovic and Stephanik but rather a big push for more all court players.

bjk
01-12-2009, 12:21 PM
I heard John Evert (of the Evert Academy) say this on TC, that there's more emphasis now on an all-court game. You're not going to beat the Argentines and the Spaniards from the baseline, so you might as well develop other parts of the game.

yemenmocha
01-12-2009, 12:33 PM
After going to slow-medium pace courts, professional tennis TV ratings dropped like a rock. Coincidence? I think not.


Tennis TV ratings and popularity was at an all time high during the 70s-80s, which was an golden era of S&V tennis. I don't see how anyone thinks S&V is boring, especially when S&V introduces more variety of shots and forces opponents to think rather than mindlessly bash away from the baseline.

Yes you're right, or at least for the sake of variety I think there would be a lot more people enjoying tennis on TV. It's not like the sentiment here is that everyone should be a S&V'er. Of course it's subjective, but I thought Wimbledon 08 was one of the most boring to watch. Give me the Becker/Edberg finals from late 80's to early 90's, or even one of the many Sampras finals.

yemenmocha
01-12-2009, 12:35 PM
Quoted for truth. Seriously, I see guys at my level (I'm 17, so upper-juniors) with chop volleys, and even on the pro tour. It annoys me to no end. They may hit them perfectly in practice, but they don't hit them OFTEN in practice... I split my time 60/40 between volleys and groundstrokes (in lessons, I do 40/35/25 serves/volleys/groundstrokes in practices) and I'm a pretty consistent volleyer, but my friends spend maybe 20% of there time at the net.


I've noticed this too, that even among top juniors they have no ability to volley except for a basic put-away shot. It's rather sad that the game has become one dimensional.

In D Zone
01-12-2009, 12:43 PM
Don't you think that's what's missing in American Tennis?

WHAT?
- Classic S&V players
- All Court player

Every one like to duke it out on the baseline. What happens if you play on a different surface?

Murray, Nadal, Djokovic, Simon, Federer are not pure S&V players but are strong all court players. Roddick? - he's trying that's is why he is still in the top ten.


I prefer watching great all court player matches than pure S&V or straight baseline brawl.

oranges
01-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Seriously, I can't believe some of the categories assigned here. First Cilic play S/V, now Nadal and Simon have become all-courters. Who's a baseliner than? Even Murray and Djokovic don''t really belong to the category. Djoker tries it occasionally and fails more often than not, Murray's better at it, but if he wins more than 8-10 percent of his points in all his matches by using the part of the court between the net and the service line, I'll send you some homemade cookies as a reward.

Mdubb23
01-12-2009, 02:20 PM
Seriously, I can't believe some of the categories assigned here. First Cilic play S/V, now Nadal and Simon have become all-courters. Who's a baseliner than? Even Murray and Djokovic don''t really belong to the category. Djoker tries it occasionally and fails more often than not, Murray's better at it, but if he wins more than 8-10 percent of his points in all his matches by using the part of the court between the net and the service line, I'll send you some homemade cookies as a reward.

Very, very, VERY well put. Name three male singles players on tour who's volleys would have been considered above-average fifteen (or even ten) years ago. I can think of one--Radek Stepanek.

Mansewerz
01-12-2009, 02:27 PM
Very, very, VERY well put. Name three male singles players on tour who's volleys would have been considered above-average fifteen (or even ten) years ago. I can think of one--Radek Stepanek.

What about Feliciano?

Mdubb23
01-12-2009, 02:32 PM
What about Feliciano?

Not even close. He is an above-average volleyer by today's standards, but he just simply does not pack that punch, and employ that consistency, or, for that matter, have that sense of comfort and security and the net that pros just a few years ago did.

marc45
01-12-2009, 02:38 PM
The number of successful serve and volley players on tour is pretty small: Cilic, Stepanek, Karlovic, that's about all that comes to mind. But Cilic and Stepanek just won tournaments, and Karlovic is at his highest ranking ever. With nearly every player on tour a baseliner, is serve and volley the future of the game? Nearly every player talks about "coming in," even though for some that means hitting a toothless approach shot before getting passed.i caught some of cilic's final in chennai, wasn't coming in at all...said to myself, my word the game has changed....a 6'6" guy with big shots hanging behind the baseline...i am impressed by the guy though

markwillplay
01-12-2009, 04:20 PM
I think I saw a match in which "Lopez" (at least I think that is who he was...lefty) served a volleyed a bunch. Hit some good shots too. Maybe it was a one time thing but he was coming in a ton and much offof his serve.

In D Zone
01-12-2009, 07:17 PM
What best describe an ALL COURT player?

"There is the all-court player. There is nothing that the all-court player won't do to win a point. If they are playing on a fast surface, like the grass at Wimbledon, they can serve-and-volley. On the slow red clay of Rolland Garros at the French Open, they can slug it out from the baseline. On hard courts, they can mix it up and do both, sometimes choosing one style over the other based on the style of their opponent.

Strategies of the all-court player are varied:

- They can adapt their style of play dependent upon surface, opponent, etc.

- Can surprise opponents by serving-and-volleying on one point, and then sticking to the baseline on the next.

- Have the ability to attack short balls and turn a baseline point into an approach to the net.

- Have the ability to play offensively and defensively with roughly equal skill."

In D Zone
01-12-2009, 07:20 PM
so tell me if this is not all court play from Simon and Nadal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f00Q9jto-n4


Simon decided to go pure baseliner this time against Djokovic... Simon got burned too many times when Djoker change his tactic all of the sudden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKxIXN62h8

oranges
01-13-2009, 10:19 AM
All-court play means using all parts of the court equally well and using the part closer to the net quite a lot. By that I mean more than finishing off an odd sitter at the net or even throwing in 1-2 s/v in a match. Nadal and Simon are not all courters by any stretch of the imagination.