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Headshotterer
01-11-2009, 05:22 PM
My kick serve can bounce really high, but always goes short and only reaches about no-mans land and begins to drop and I know people can take advantage of that

I use eastern Bh and try to put a lot of pronation and body into it, but then it goes out

And if i swing as hard as i can, it still goes short

oneguy21
01-11-2009, 06:21 PM
My kick serve can bounce really high, but always goes short and only reaches about no-mans land and begins to drop and I know people can take advantage of that

I use eastern Bh and try to put a lot of pronation and body into it, but then it goes out

And if i swing as hard as i can, it still goes short

Maybe you're not swinging up enough. Try practicing swinging up by hitting kick serves while sitting down at the same spot you would for a serve. This will really force you to brush up on the ball.

Mada
01-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Maybe it's just me...But I imagine using an eastern BH grip for a kick serve would give it the tendency to land shallow in the service box, AKA not going very far overall. Try making your grip a little more continental and try again.

Ballinbob
01-11-2009, 06:32 PM
aim higher, wait for the ball to drop down more. sitting down idea is good too. This serve is a pain in the as$ to learn,be patient with it

obnoxious2
01-11-2009, 10:45 PM
I have this problem too. The highest point is right on the baseline for me about 5-6 feet high average. I just can't seem to rip the ball with kick and also with pace.

LeeD
01-12-2009, 09:04 AM
First of all, a kick serve up high to an opponent should clear the net easily by 6' to achieve it's objective, a really high bounce.
You don't RIP the ball, you caress the backside with an upward stroke, the swing speed that you can control consistently. It's SLOWER than a topslice serve, much slower than any normal serve.
You make it land near the service line with whatever you have to do. In this case, I'd moderate the easternforehand a few degrees towards continental, as the ball would go higher and deeper. You don't have to swing as fast as a second serve swing.
Key key key is the deeply placed ball, which hops upwards of 6' high from an average height server to any sized target. You MIGHT win the point with this serve, but it's mainly used to take the opponent out of his comfort return game.

Bungalo Bill
01-12-2009, 11:42 AM
^^^^^^ NONSENSE.

First off there are two types of "kick serves." Awhile back there was a distinction between a twist serve and a topspin serve. Nowadays, many folks have merged these two types of serves into what most players refer to as a "kick serve."

The "kick" part of the serve refers to the high bounce that usually accompanies this serve. However, sometimes the word "kick" can be used to refer to the way the ball shoots towards you real quick.

Whatever the case, the kick serve allows a player to hit higher over the net and swing faster while still being able to get the ball deep into the service box because of how the "topspin" part of the ball works.

To increase the height and depth of your serve, just meet the ball slightly farther back.

If you continue to have issues getting the ball to go high over the net, take a bunch of balls outside the court, stand roughly 20 feet from the fence, and try to hit twist serves over the fence.

Or you can stand back at the fence, and serve to the service box causing the ball to travel far and high to get it over the net and into the service box.

You are trying to work on your depth and "kick" results from your motion.

You do not want to slow down your swing. You in fact want the same swing speed if not faster as your first serve.

Read more here:
http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/serve/serve.aspx?id=529

Fredrik
01-12-2009, 12:04 PM
^^^^^^ NONSENSE.



Hallelujah, Bill!

I especially like how Lee thinks the OP is referring to an eastern forehand grip....

LeeD
01-12-2009, 12:08 PM
I won't reply with "nonsense"....
For most tennis players, excluding professional players, the chopping upwards motion of the classic twist/kick is harder to swing fast CONSISTENTLY than a normal topspin with or without slice.
Of course, you swing as fast as you can, under control, with consistency.
Now try swing the kick motion a few times, and you know you can't swing it as fast as your normal second top/sliced serve.
Reality is sometimes sad and lonely, but it's still the real thing.
Some top level local (in the SFBayArea) A players used a rather slowly swing, slow moving twist serve to great advantage.....followed and backed up by a superlative low volley, of course.
You don't NEED to knock the fuzz off the ball. But it's always good to if you can....

LeeD
01-12-2009, 12:10 PM
Sorry Fredirik,....
NO reference to eastern forehand...the serve grip is continental, with a hair favor towards backhand.
But jump onto the bandwagon, it can be fun......

LeeD
01-12-2009, 12:12 PM
Sorry, Fredirik...
I see your reference to my forehand... my mistake. If you read any of my other posts, you'd know I advocate Continental on all serves.....with a slight twist towards eastern backhand.

NamRanger
01-12-2009, 12:20 PM
^^^^^^ NONSENSE.

First off there are two types of "kick serves." Awhile back there was a distinction between a twist serve and a topspin serve. Nowadays, many folks have merged these two types of serves into what most players refer to as a "kick serve."

The "kick" part of the serve refers to the high bounce that usually accompanies this serve. However, sometimes the word "kick" can be used to refer to the way the ball shoots towards you real quick.

Whatever the case, the kick serve allows a player to hit higher over the net and swing faster while still being able to get the ball deep into the service box because of how the "topspin" part of the ball works.

To increase the height and depth of your serve, just meet the ball slightly farther back.

If you continue to have issues getting the ball to go high over the net, take a bunch of balls outside the court, stand roughly 20 feet from the fence, and try to hit twist serves over the fence.

Or you can stand back at the fence, and serve to the service box causing the ball to travel far and high to get it over the net and into the service box.

You are trying to work on your depth and "kick" results from your motion.

You do not want to slow down your swing. You in fact want the same swing speed if not faster as your first serve.

Read more here:
http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/serve/serve.aspx?id=529



I personally swing so fast at times that I have on the occasion whiffed a second serve before. Great way to double fault isn't it?

Fredrik
01-12-2009, 12:44 PM
[QUOTE=LeeD;2999462]
You make it land near the service line with whatever you have to do. In this case, I'd moderate the easternforehand a few degrees towards continental, as the ball would go higher and deeper. You don't have to swing as fast as a second serve swing.
QUOTE]

Bandwagon aside; you are implying that the OP is using a forehand grip. My understanding is that he is using an eastern backhand grip. The proper grip for a kick is at least continental, and many players tend towards the eastern BH grip (see Edberg). The further towards eastern BH you bring the grip, the more spin you'll impart (all things equal) at the expense of pace. If his serves are landing short, that could be the reason.

Another thing; all the coaching material I've read, internet and elsewhere, stresses the need to swing fast for an effective kick serve. You can impart spin with a slower swing, but it will not make for an effective kick serve.

I'm not joining a flame squad here, but I think your advice is unsound and you stand the risk of misleading someone trying to improve their game.

Fredrik
01-12-2009, 12:45 PM
Lee,

Disregard my comment regarding forehand then.

My part about swing speed, I stand by.

Bungalo Bill
01-12-2009, 01:23 PM
I won't reply with "nonsense"....
For most tennis players, excluding professional players, the chopping upwards motion of the classic twist/kick is harder to swing fast CONSISTENTLY than a normal topspin with or without slice.

Can you provide the source on this please?

Of course, you swing as fast as you can, under control, with consistency.

But you said we shouldn't. Can you please point to the sources for this? Here is your exact quote:

"You don't RIP the ball, you caress the backside with an upward stroke, the swing speed that you can control consistently. It's SLOWER than a topslice serve, much slower than any normal serve.

Now try swing the kick motion a few times, and you know you can't swing it as fast as your normal second top/sliced serve.
Reality is sometimes sad and lonely, but it's still the real thing.

Reality is sometimes sad and lonely. I am surprised you havent realized your reality yet.

Some top level local (in the SFBayArea) A players used a rather slowly swing, slow moving twist serve to great advantage.....followed and backed up by a superlative low volley, of course.
You don't NEED to knock the fuzz off the ball. But it's always good to if you can....

No you certainly dont. We arent trying to knock the fuzz off the ball, we are simply trying to spin the ball as fast as possible.

LeeD
01-12-2009, 03:07 PM
Yes, reality can be sad and lonely...
About that A player with a slow swing....
RollieZalameda, #1 for MissionHigh, won AAA's against PeanutLouie 0 and 1, then #2 for Canada one season, then #1 for two seasons there.
He swung slow, but with excellent depth and accuracy. His ball was not hit oval, his first serve maybe 90 mph.
You might say he was not good. OK, I'll give you that. But with the aforementioned credentials, followed by 3 AsianAmerican wins, he's still an A or Open player, and that's pretty good by anyone's book.
And he hit the ball slower than most 6'2" guys, including his best buddy, one PeterPearson, who also hit slow with sidespin almost all shots.
Both qualified for local Pro level tournaments, but never got past second round in the main draw. Still, both good players with SLOW swings.

Bungalo Bill
01-12-2009, 03:30 PM
Yes, reality can be sad and lonely...
About that A player with a slow swing....
RollieZalameda, #1 for MissionHigh, won AAA's against PeanutLouie 0 and 1, then #2 for Canada one season, then #1 for two seasons there.
He swung slow, but with excellent depth and accuracy. His ball was not hit oval, his first serve maybe 90 mph.

We all know there is more to a serve than just pace. We have already said that. However, you said to swing slower for the kick serve than your "normal" serve. This is not true. To develop a kick serve, a person needs to swing as fast as his "normal" serve. Whether in reality the swing speed is actually faster is a whole different story. The player learning this serve needs to understand that the swing speed of the arm is not to slow down.

Please do not make match time variables to win a point the same as fundamental instruction.

obnoxious2
01-15-2009, 04:08 PM
First of all, a kick serve up high to an opponent should clear the net easily by 6' to achieve it's objective, a really high bounce.
You don't RIP the ball, you caress the backside with an upward stroke, the swing speed that you can control consistently. It's SLOWER than a topslice serve, much slower than any normal serve.
You make it land near the service line with whatever you have to do. In this case, I'd moderate the easternforehand a few degrees towards continental, as the ball would go higher and deeper. You don't have to swing as fast as a second serve swing.
Key key key is the deeply placed ball, which hops upwards of 6' high from an average height server to any sized target. You MIGHT win the point with this serve, but it's mainly used to take the opponent out of his comfort return game.

LOL dude you need the same amount of racquet head speed on a kick serve as you do on a flat first serve. Other wise you are just pushing the ball into the service box for your opponent to hit a big fat down the line winner.

LeeD
01-15-2009, 04:43 PM
I said your kicker swing is slower than your SECOND serve topspin swing.
And what is slow and what is fast....rackethead speed.
I mentioned Rollie because he had the slowest swing speed I've ever seen in a A or Open player, but his depth and placement made it work...backed up by a superior low volley.
But anytime you guys actually get to play tennis, TRY to swing a kicker motion as fast as you can. It will be slower than any other motion because the swing is unusual, it's aimed at the sky, and the motion doesn't allow for a long stroke compared to flat or topspin serves.
Just TRY to swing a kicker motion and you will see. The motion starts heading upwards, fighting gravity from the beginning, and AFTER you hit the ball, your stroke levels off and finishes downwards.
Try this motion and then tell me I'm wrong.

ZPTennis
01-15-2009, 06:41 PM
Here is my kick serve. Granted, I could probably use more leg bend but it works well for me. I think it shows a better angle than most videos so you
can analyze everything thats happening. Of course I'm a little bias though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYMiHfflH0o

wihamilton
01-15-2009, 06:43 PM
Nice! 10 char

LeeD
01-15-2009, 06:52 PM
Nice high bounce to the backhand.
Are you sure it's a kicker, and not just a topspin serve?
Are you over 6'2" tall?
When I hit a kicker, the ball starts out arcing upwards, with lots of forward spin with some side component, goes slower than yours, and bounces about that high to my opponent....but I'm 5'11" tall.
Are you in high altitude?

Headshotterer
01-15-2009, 06:57 PM
i hear people say its like you want to hit the ball out of the courts

but the spin brings it in?

ZPTennis
01-15-2009, 07:00 PM
Nice high bounce to the backhand.
Are you sure it's a kicker, and not just a topspin serve?
Are you over 6'2" tall?
When I hit a kicker, the ball starts out arcing upwards, with lots of forward spin with some side component, goes slower than yours, and bounces about that high to my opponent....but I'm 5'11" tall.
Are you in high altitude?

I'm exactly 6' 2" In florida on the coast so maybe 15 feet above sea level. :)
Its bouncing quite a bit to the side. Might be a little difficult to see in the video, but you can see it jump to the side of the receivers racquet.

You say your serve is slower and bounces the same height and your 5'11". My best guess is that you should be trying to hit a little more through the ball than you are now and not quite as much spin.

Do you have a video?

Ballinbob
01-15-2009, 08:37 PM
Here is my kick serve. Granted, I could probably use more leg bend but it works well for me. I think it shows a better angle than most videos so you
can analyze everything thats happening. Of course I'm a little bias though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYMiHfflH0o

I've seen that video before, but I never knew it was you. That's really impressive, you should be proud of that. That seriously one of the best kick serves Ive ever seen (excluding pros of course). My kick serve is slow but bounces pretty high, and when I try and hit through it kicks like 4ft which is a joke. So I've been stuck with a pretty slow 2nd serve kick...I have a 100mph flat serve, but because my 2nd serve is getting attacked I've started hitting heavy topspin slice serves for a better first serve percentage. It's slower than my flat serve, but its actually getting me more service winners because the spin is pretty good on it. Your kick serve is fast and still bounces high as hell, I don't know how people do that. Ugh, I have soo much practice to do its not even funny...

ZPTennis
01-16-2009, 06:06 AM
I've seen that video before, but I never knew it was you. That's really impressive, you should be proud of that. That seriously one of the best kick serves Ive ever seen (excluding pros of course). My kick serve is slow but bounces pretty high, and when I try and hit through it kicks like 4ft which is a joke. So I've been stuck with a pretty slow 2nd serve kick...I have a 100mph flat serve, but because my 2nd serve is getting attacked I've started hitting heavy topspin slice serves for a better first serve percentage. It's slower than my flat serve, but its actually getting me more service winners because the spin is pretty good on it. Your kick serve is fast and still bounces high as hell, I don't know how people do that. Ugh, I have soo much practice to do its not even funny...

Thanks. Keep working at it. It takes a lot of time and practice to get to the point where you can consistently hit it the same way each time. I have a pretty good topspin slice as well. I try to use the same motion up to the point of contact and it throws off opponents expecting a kick for the 2nd serve. The more variety you have in your serves, the more easy points that will come your way.