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kimbahpnam
01-19-2009, 09:29 PM
Kinda like Michelle Wie in golf. She hasn't done well, but she's made a men's tournament. Can someone do that in tennis? Will it be allowed?

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 09:31 PM
Kinda like Michelle Wie in golf. She hasn't done well, but she's made a men's tournament. Can someone do that in tennis? Will it be allowed?


A. It would not happen
B. It cannot happen
C. If it did happen, the score would be 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 even if the man was hitting his slowest second serve all day while just pushing the ball back.

World Beater
01-19-2009, 10:01 PM
i would say that perhaps boys singles might improve to such a level that they could beat women pros.

j/k

COPEY
01-19-2009, 10:06 PM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world. Now, his opinion didn't go over very well with the ladies, but I think he was (and still is) absolutely right.

Having said that, I don't quite agree with Ranger's triple bagel claim. It would be true today because JJ can barely hang with some the big hitting girls on tour today, but back when Graf or Martina was in top form I think they would've taken a few games off of some of the guys.

As for the question of will it ever happen, I seriously doubt it.

Mansewerz
01-19-2009, 10:07 PM
i would say that perhaps boys singles might improve to such a level that they could beat women pros.

j/k

Improve? I'm pretty sure the higher level boys singles players would beat many top 100 women.

Okazaki Fragment
01-19-2009, 10:08 PM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world. Now, his opinion didn't go over very well with the ladies, but I think he was (and still is) absolutely right.

Having said that, I don't quite agree with Ranger's triple bagel claim. It would be true today because JJ can barely hang with some the big hitting girls on tour today, but back when Graf or Martina was in top form I think they would've taken a few games off of some of the guys.

As for the question of will it ever happen, I seriously doubt it.

Didn't the #1 ranked woman lose to some 55 year old hacker back in the 70's?

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 10:18 PM
Improve? I'm pretty sure the higher level boys singles players would beat many top 100 women.


Actually, I'm pretty sure Sharapova lost to some juniors player boy when she was #1 in the world.

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 10:20 PM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world. Now, his opinion didn't go over very well with the ladies, but I think he was (and still is) absolutely right.

Having said that, I don't quite agree with Ranger's triple bagel claim. It would be true today because JJ can barely hang with some the big hitting girls on tour today, but back when Graf or Martina was in top form I think they would've taken a few games off of some of the guys.

As for the question of will it ever happen, I seriously doubt it.



Bjorn Borg would 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 either of these ladies in possibly the fastest time, ever. Actually, I'm pretty sure McEnroe could have done it faster, since he is a S&Ver.



I don't think you quite understand the gap between a men and women, especially in an anaerobic sport like tennis (which heavily favors males). If you had Justine Henin play against Andy Roddick on clay, which is by far Justine's best and Roddick's worst, Justine Henin would probably be struggling to win points let alone games.



Also, Connors played Navratilova under heavily modified rules that gave her significant advantages. Connors only had one serve, and Martina was allowed to hit into the doubles courts. Connors won this match, half assing it 7-5, 6-2. And he wasn't even trying. Martina was clearly trying in this match, near 100% match capacity, while Connors was lollygagging half the time.

COPEY
01-19-2009, 10:21 PM
Well, technically yes, but I saw that match from start to finish, and Riggs was doing wacky things like sitting in a chair to return serve and hitting balls with frying pans lol.

It's funny how people still write/talk about that match being "groundbreaking" and "historic" with respect to the woman's game. I saw it as pure entertainment--nothing more. Actually, I thought Riggs was pretty darn impressive for an old guy. ;)

COPEY
01-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Hehe I understand the gap completely, Ranger. :) I've been playing/following this game for more than 37 years.

If anything I may have I failed to clarify the portion of my statement you placed in bold text. Specifically, I believe Graf or Martina could have taken a few games off the 100 male player in their day. Course, it's all speculation here since it'll never be proven. I certainly never meant to suggest that Borg or Mac or Connors or anyone of the top guys couldn't blank any of the women if they wanted to. That would be naive.

Again, I don't think we'll ever see men playing with women, but then again I'm not one for for being too quick to say "it'll never happen". When I was in the 4th grade (which was quite a few years ago) my teacher was 100% sure we'd never have a black president. At the time I believed her - had no reason not to. It seemed sufficiently logical at the time, but low and behold...

kairosntx
01-19-2009, 10:43 PM
And Riggs played the alleys while BJK did not (singles court vs doubles court).

Vitas Gerulitas had a standing bet for years that no woman on tour could beat the #100 man whoever that happened to be at the time.

Especially in Grand Slams, -IF- any woman made it to the second week, they couldn't handle best of 5 sets. Imagine a first round 5.5 hour match like we saw last night... that would be the end of the tourney for any woman on top woman on tour who are used to 45 minute first round matches.

kairosntx
01-19-2009, 10:45 PM
On a tangent note..

Many states have allowed girls to play boys sports where there is no equivalent sport available. i.e. a girl would not be allowed to play boys basketball since girls basketball is offerred, but a girl would be allowed to play football since there is not girls football. I have always wanted to see 6 boys win the state volleyball championship!!!

BreakPoint
01-19-2009, 11:00 PM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world.


Vitas Gerulitas had a standing bet for years that no woman on tour could beat the #100 man whoever that happened to be at the time.

Forget the #100th ranked male ATP pro. Just about any Div. I male college player should be able to easily beat any female WTA top 10 pro.

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 11:03 PM
Forget the #100th ranked male ATP pro. Just about any Div. I male college player should be able to easily beat any female WTA top 10 pro.



Div I is pushing it, although I'd give them a fair shot at beating a top 10 WTA pro. It depends on who we are talking about. If we're talking about someone like Alex Clayton, Somdev, John Isner, Kevin Kim, Benjamin Becker, etc. than yea, they would pretty much destroy a top 10 WTA player.

RCizzle65
01-19-2009, 11:06 PM
On a tangent note..

I have always wanted to see 6 boys win the state volleyball championship!!!

Your school doesn't have a guys volleyball team?

edmondsm
01-19-2009, 11:16 PM
Your school doesn't have a guys volleyball team?

Your school does?

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 11:18 PM
And Riggs played the alleys while BJK did not (singles court vs doubles court).

Vitas Gerulitas had a standing bet for years that no woman on tour could beat the #100 man whoever that happened to be at the time.

Especially in Grand Slams, -IF- any woman made it to the second week, they couldn't handle best of 5 sets. Imagine a first round 5.5 hour match like we saw last night... that would be the end of the tourney for any woman on top woman on tour who are used to 45 minute first round matches.


Actually that's not true. BJK beat Riggs using the normal rules. However, Riggs was 50 something while BJK was in her physical prime. Not exactly a great comparison of men and women's tennis.

kairosntx
01-19-2009, 11:18 PM
None in the area. Only club teams. Where are you, California?

Aldi Patron
01-19-2009, 11:23 PM
On a tangent note..

Many states have allowed girls to play boys sports where there is no equivalent sport available. i.e. a girl would not be allowed to play boys basketball since girls basketball is offerred, but a girl would be allowed to play football since there is not girls football. I have always wanted to see 6 boys win the state volleyball championship!!!

Yeah, I don't think it goes the other way...if six boys decided they wanted to play volleyball and tried to force the issue, the school would probably just create a boys volleyball team for the spring season or whenever it is that boys high school volleyball is played.

As to the thread starter, has Michelle Wie actually qualified for a men's tournament? I think she's only ever received sponsor's exemptions, mostly because of the novelty of it all.

I think it's safe to say a woman wouldn't fare well crossing over to the men's tour. The endurance aspect would break them pretty quickly. The difference between a grinder on the WTA and a grinder in the ATP is quite large.

tacou
01-19-2009, 11:24 PM
no there is women's tennis and men's tennis. a woman can't play in mens tennis or vice versa specifically because of gender. so no.

NamRanger
01-19-2009, 11:31 PM
no there is women's tennis and men's tennis. a woman can't play in mens tennis or vice versa specifically because of gender. so no.


True. Also, Renee Richards (a transgender male) played in women's tennis in the 1970s around the age of 40ish. This is someone who actually had a fairly long break from tennis and really wasn't even anywhere close to a male professional player (reached men's 35 and over final, but that was it). Made multiple semis in the US Open and reached a doubles final in 1977.

kimbahpnam
01-19-2009, 11:47 PM
hmmm...would the pregnant man play in the women's or men's?

True. Also, Renee Richards (a transgender male) played in women's tennis in the 1970s around the age of 40ish. This is someone who actually had a fairly long break from tennis and really wasn't even anywhere close to a male professional player (reached men's 35 and over final, but that was it). Made multiple semis in the US Open and reached a doubles final in 1977.

kairosntx
01-19-2009, 11:55 PM
Yeah, I don't think it goes the other way...if six boys decided they wanted to play volleyball and tried to force the issue, the school would probably just create a boys volleyball team for the spring season or whenever it is that boys high school volleyball is played.

The schools around here couldn't start a boys team because there wouldn't be any other boys teams to compete against... so the 6 boys would keep winning all the way to a state championship.

kairosntx
01-20-2009, 12:02 AM
Just checked online.. no public school in the state has seperate boys and girls volleyball. The state governing agency only lists volleyball as opposed to girls/boys soccer/basketball/etc.
My sons school has a girl that plays football, so I assume they would have to let boys play volleyball if they forced the issue.

David L
01-20-2009, 12:07 AM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world. Now, his opinion didn't go over very well with the ladies, but I think he was (and still is) absolutely right.

Having said that, I don't quite agree with Ranger's triple bagel claim. It would be true today because JJ can barely hang with some the big hitting girls on tour today, but back when Graf or Martina was in top form I think they would've taken a few games off of some of the guys.

As for the question of will it ever happen, I seriously doubt it.
Try 1000th.

Aldi Patron
01-20-2009, 12:37 AM
Just checked online.. no public school in the state has seperate boys and girls volleyball. The state governing agency only lists volleyball as opposed to girls/boys soccer/basketball/etc.
My sons school has a girl that plays football, so I assume they would have to let boys play volleyball if they forced the issue.

You may be on to something, but I'm not convinced they would let boys play girls volleyball. I think it has generally been accepted as a girls' sport, which is why there's not a designation with your state governing agency. Here in Ohio, there is boys volleyball, but it's played at the club level, and I don't think it's an offcial OHSAA (Ohio High School Athletic Association) sport.

I've heard of girls playing boys' sports, but I've never heard it go the other way. It seems like different sports are expanding in popularity, so it may eventually become a moot point.

kairosntx
01-20-2009, 12:44 AM
I've heard of girls playing boys' sports, but I've never heard it go the other way. It seems like different sports are expanding in popularity, so it may eventually become a moot point.

I'd get the ACLU to jump all over it if they wouldn't let my son play girls sports :lol:

FiveO
01-20-2009, 02:49 AM
I can't recall the year J. McEnroe made the statement, but he said (on air) that the 100th ranked male could easily dismantle the no. 1 ranked woman in the world. Now, his opinion didn't go over very well with the ladies, but I think he was (and still is) absolutely right.

Having said that, I don't quite agree with Ranger's triple bagel claim. It would be true today because JJ can barely hang with some the big hitting girls on tour today, but back when Graf or Martina was in top form I think they would've taken a few games off of some of the guys.

As for the question of will it ever happen, I seriously doubt it.

From Men's Journal: http://www.mensjournal.com/mcenroe

Macís New Game
Sun, Sep 14, 2008
Features, Sports

Heís emerged as one of TVís best commentators, and he was courtside for the greatest match ever, so who better than John McEnroe to sound off on tennis today? A revealing interview with the Superbrat turned Elder Statesman.

by Tourť

A lot of guys like to debate where women would be if they played on the menís tour. Letís take Serena, playing at her hottest, and put her on the menís tour for a year. Where would she be? Top 10, top 20, top 100?

I would say if she played a full year of just menís tennis, it would be tough for her to win matches. Iíd say sheíd be around 500th in the world.

That low?

The less she played the better off sheíd be to beat people.

Letís send her to four majors. Can she get to the quarters?

No.

What about Steffi Graf at her best?

Whoever. You name it.

She canít make it to the third round?

Thatís my opinion. Now, if you set up one match, and sheís gonna play a guy ranked 100, 200, 300, or whatever, then thereís a possibility, because Serena Williams has been in way more high-pressure situations, more than a guy whoís ranked 100 or 200. So that guy could fold. But there are also juniors out there who hit the ball harder than Serena Williams. Kids who are 18 who youíve never heard of would beat Serena Williams on a given day. But of all the sports, one of the only ones that gives out equal prize money is tennis. If you would have asked me 25 years ago, I would have said it would be a bunch of baloney that itís even considered. The disparity was so great. And the other argument is that men play best-of-five sets and women play best-of-three. But just because a movie takes three hours doesnít necessarily mean itís better than the hour-and-a-half movie. I mean, weíre setting such a great example. Where else are women being treated equally? Very few places. Thatís like saying, ďWhere are blacks being treated equally?Ē So as a somewhat more mature person at this stage in my life I see what that means, and what Billie Jean King represented.

5

luckyboy1300
01-20-2009, 04:23 AM
anybody remember this?:

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-98/01-28-98/d05sp210.htm

tennisguyak
01-20-2009, 04:32 AM
IMO there is such a large difference between the men's and women's game due to several factors:

Men's fastest serve 155 mph - many guys can serve in the high 140's consistently.

Fastest women's serve 129 mph - only a hand full of women can exceed 115 mph consistently.

Next, look at all the women's hitting partners. (Sharapova, and the Williams sisters come to mind.) These guys are good enough to travel year round and play the women hard enough to keep them match tough and keep their skills polished. But these guys couldn't even break through on the lowest levels of the mens tour.

And Finally, IMHO, Michele Wie has done nothing by breaking the gender boundary except embarrass herself. She's not good enough to win an LPGA event yet for some reason she thinks she can compete with the guys.

But as far as breaking the gender boundary....if you're good enough to compete, I'll be willing to watch and I know others will too. If you're going to have a bunch of hype made of your game, then you get on the court and get absolutely blown out by some qualifier in the first round of a slam, then better to stay on your end of the draws.

NineMileSkid
01-20-2009, 05:44 AM
Yeah, I don't think it goes the other way...if six boys decided they wanted to play volleyball and tried to force the issue, the school would probably just create a boys volleyball team for the spring season or whenever it is that boys high school volleyball is played.

As to the thread starter, has Michelle Wie actually qualified for a men's tournament? I think she's only ever received sponsor's exemptions, mostly because of the novelty of it all.

I think it's safe to say a woman wouldn't fare well crossing over to the men's tour. The endurance aspect would break them pretty quickly. The difference between a grinder on the WTA and a grinder in the ATP is quite large.

She has never qualified for a professional tour event, but she did qualify for a fairly prestigous amateur event: As a 15-year old, she qualified for The U.S. Amateur Public Links, an adult "male" championship conducted by the USGA.

http://www.usga.org/news/2005/June/wie_apl.html

FiveO
01-20-2009, 06:04 AM
She has never qualified for a professional tour event, but she did qualify for a fairly prestigous amateur event: As a 15-year old, she qualified for The U.S. Amateur Public Links, an adult "male" championship conducted by the USGA.

http://www.usga.org/news/2005/June/wie_apl.html


Yeah, but the way they have mis-managed her development and career they may have ruined this kid for good.

As an aside, after watching that profile on Donald Young on TTC, IMO, if that kid ever had a real chance to make an impact at the top of the game, his parents will have only themselves to blame if he doesn't. Probably the best example of the prototypical, worst kind of "tennis parents" I've seen presented as if it were a positive. Very few of those types of parent/kid tennis relationships work. Obviously the Everts, Williams* and to a lesser degree the Mayers (Sandy and Gene) are exceptions. (The Williams parents "coaching" the sisters is mis-leadingly overstated, and while it's glossed over, at least the Williams' parents had the great good sense to get them involved with outside coaches early on).

But I've found the apparent handling of both Wie and Young, well frankly, disturbing.

5

Hankenstein
01-20-2009, 06:08 AM
When I was in Australia working as a coach 2002, a young bloke that worked a bit as coach also was hitting partner to Jennifer Capriati. This guy was a player that won occasional matches in the future event qualifyings and during a practice Jen wanted to get a good workout and said she wanted to play a set on full pace. The young guy (think he was 18 or 19) won 6-1 without doing to much as he said..

Another guy i met at a holiday and played a set against (he won 6-3) was also playing future events qualifying. At age 17 he won against the top croatian lady (around 25 in the world) whenever he wanted. He said they are very good when just hitting flat strokes, but when the guys apply topspin the girls just get lost. They are unfortunately not used to the pace..

Same goes with soccer, icehockey,, all sports where speed and power are involved..

miyagi
01-20-2009, 06:41 AM
Kinda like Michelle Wie in golf. She hasn't done well, but she's made a men's tournament. Can someone do that in tennis? Will it be allowed?

It wont happen.....a woman will never have the weapons to compete.....therefore really it's useless for them to enter because they have 0 chance of winning....

Lets look at the williams sisters they have power and are very athletic but we all know that they would not be able to contend in the top 100 yet in their own field they could win slams....

The same goes for Michelle Wie she will never win a major or any tournament in the mens field so why is she there other than to create a specticle.....it's silly..

Women can't be men and they shouldn't want to be......

stevepidge
01-20-2009, 06:53 AM
If you look at nature the human species is an aberration in that the males are the dominant sex. Many biologist predict that soon women WILL catch up to men physically and if you look at the olympics it is quite alarming at how much faster women are improving and closing the gap.

http://www.bioedonline.org/picks/news.cfm?art=1281

check it out quite enlightening.

saram
01-20-2009, 07:15 AM
Kinda like Michelle Wie in golf. She hasn't done well, but she's made a men's tournament. Can someone do that in tennis? Will it be allowed?

Absolutely not. Sorry.

FiveO
01-20-2009, 07:33 AM
If you look at nature the human species is an aberration in that the males are the dominant sex. Many biologist predict that soon women WILL catch up to men physically and if you look at the olympics it is quite alarming at how much faster women are improving and closing the gap.

http://www.bioedonline.org/picks/news.cfm?art=1281

check it out quite enlightening.

Humans are far from the only animal species where males are the dominant sex. In fact, there are great similarities between non-human males and us men, [with a nod to my wife], who have mastered the art of allowing the female to bare most of the burden in day to day living. But when push comes to shove in the majority of species the females call on and/or yield to the superior mass and strength of their male counterparts.

I'd side with those voicing their dissenting opinions on the premise voiced in the cited article. The writer seems to be a lone voice in the wilderness on this and one based on seriously flawed logic.



5

baseliner
01-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Question was will someone ever break the Gender boundary. If by that it is meant will a woman ever play in the draw fo a men's tour event, I would have to say "yes". Some promoter, in order to sell tickets, will give some woman a wild card to spur interest and ticket sales. If the question is will a woman be competitive on the ATP, teh answer is a resounding "NO!" See most of the above posts for reasons.

BONZO13
01-20-2009, 03:07 PM
In my opinion (and im not sexist) the only women that would have a chance against any man in the top 1000 would be Venus or Serena. And they would have to be playing pretty dang good, and who ever the guy was would have to be having a terrible day.

rubberduckies
01-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Question was will someone ever break the Gender boundary. If by that it is meant will a woman ever play in the draw fo a men's tour event, I would have to say "yes". Some promoter, in order to sell tickets, will give some woman a wild card to spur interest and ticket sales. If the question is will a woman be competitive on the ATP, teh answer is a resounding "NO!" See most of the above posts for reasons.

I think the major difference between tennis and golf is that tennis is a sport of direct competition whereas golf is a race. Wie gets to compete essentially against herself and her own score. She is not competing to a make a shot at the expense of her opponent. Tennis is a zero-sum game. Points, games, sets, matches are only won by a player at the expense of the opponent. For this reason, I don't think any promoter would create a tennis-Wie because the zero-sum nature of the game would amplify the ability gap between men and women. It won't be a good promotion when the woman is down 0-5 and hasn't taken a point yet.

Fiercer
01-20-2009, 08:54 PM
Gender bend? Yeah, I might have a shot at the WTA in the future? ^^' Humiliating, you ask? Well, not with the cash in my pocket :D

Oh, it was a joke btw...

Fiercer
01-20-2009, 08:59 PM
Also, I think you might be underestimating woman tennis slightly. I've seen some women begin more competetive than most men in tennis.

NamRanger
01-20-2009, 09:01 PM
Also, I think you might be underestimating woman tennis slightly. I've seen some women begin more competetive than most men in tennis.


No. This is bad as those who say women in the WNBA can compete with Kobe, LeBron, and Dwayne Wade in the NBA. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS.

Fiercer
01-20-2009, 09:06 PM
No. This is bad as those who say women in the WNBA can compete with Kobe, LeBron, and Dwayne Wade in the NBA. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS.

Really? But basketball is a bit more physical, especially on begin able to push someone around. Tennis just requires really good technique and tenacity.

tennis_hand
01-20-2009, 09:17 PM
Kinda like Michelle Wie in golf. She hasn't done well, but she's made a men's tournament. Can someone do that in tennis? Will it be allowed?

MIchelle Wie? where is she now?
it is only for the damned marketing.

NamRanger
01-20-2009, 09:17 PM
Really? But basketball is a bit more physical, especially on begin able to push someone around. Tennis just requires really good technique and tenacity.



No. Tennis requires alot of movement shifting, and women physically cannot change directions as fast as men due to the structure of their hip bones. Also, men have far more muscles, which results in more strength and speed, both which come into play in the modern game.



Plus, men have higher cardiovascular abilities, and in a best of 5, I don't think there's a woman on the planet that could survive that.

Bhagi Katbamna
01-20-2009, 10:26 PM
It would be interesting to hear off the record what the male pros that are commenting think about equal money for female pros. Off the record because I suspect that if they really said what they thought, they might lose their jobs in this age of idiotic political correctness where getting offended has become a sport.

Bhagi Katbamna
01-20-2009, 10:28 PM
Really? But basketball is a bit more physical, especially on begin able to push someone around. Tennis just requires really good technique and tenacity.

It isn't just the pushing. Women are shorter and slower. The WNBA pros would get killed by a good college male team.