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Lotto
02-05-2009, 11:15 AM
Hi guys,

I'm just wondering, what grip do you use on your slice backhand and what grips do most of the pros use? Just wondering because I've always used the continental but I've heard other people talking about the Eastern Backhand??
What grip does Federer use does anybody know? :confused:

LeeD
02-05-2009, 11:26 AM
One handed backhand SLICE....
Most of the top guys use a conti with an eastern forehand flavor, to create a heavily sliced ball that clears the net low, but goes deep to the baseline. The stroke is long and forceful, with full shoulder turn and footwork. Why I say this? Look at the actual contact point....like right where the front shoulder is.
For a topspin one hander, most pros hit much farther in front of their body, using a real Easternbackhand grip.
Especially the two handers using slice, you can see the strange grip they employ for that low ball.
I guess if the good player has enough energy, time, and wherewithall to switch to eastern forehand grip, they'd just stroke thru with topspin:shock::shock:
You are free to disagree, argue, and call me names. What can I possibly think I know?
As a one hander, I employ slices from both a traditional eastern backhand grip and that weird conglomeration of grips I mentioned. That wierd conglom grip works really well.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 12:02 PM
Hi guys,

I'm just wondering, what grip do you use on your slice backhand and what grips do most of the pros use? Just wondering because I've always used the continental but I've heard other people talking about the Eastern Backhand??
What grip does Federer use does anybody know? :confused:

I use a continental grip that favors the EASTERN BACKHAND.

1. Your ability to control the racquet head throughout the swing is very important.

2. Your weight tranfer to hit over your front leg is very important.

3. You being able to maintain your balance over your front leg is very important.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 12:03 PM
One handed backhand SLICE....
Most of the top guys use a conti with an eastern forehand flavor.

Really? Eastern forehand? Are you sure?

Fay
02-05-2009, 12:07 PM
I use a semi-western for everything, including BH slice from the baseline, except of course serves and net play where I use continental. I tried using Continental on slices from farther back and I can't seem to get my arm to work as well that way ... not as much power. personal preference

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 12:24 PM
I tried using Continental on slices from farther back and I can't seem to get my arm to work as well that way ... not as much power. personal preference

Really? You should talk to StormHolloway, he thinks everything is learned naturally. Or maybe you just had a coach that kept barking in your ear confusing your inner child. I think that is it.

But ouch on the SW grip. You must roll your elbow forward and swing from the lower arm a bunch.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 12:41 PM
Yeah, I hate to say eastern forehand side of continental, but it's true.
Remember one thing different about the pros.... if they bother to switch to a real eastern backhand grip, they will just as soon rip a topspin shot.
That cont with east backhand flavor is the CHANGE OF PACE shot, the retrieval when they want to rest, and the "I dare you to approach" shot....
Not saying it's full relevant here, but once long time ago, one of the current #4 ranked Pro player, one RaulRameriz (sp), told me about that wierd defensive grip. It puts more slice with less pace, what the pros are looking for in a change of pace shot.
Few pros actually slice normally, so that explains our differences from that of pros..:twisted::twisted:

Slicendicer
02-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Really? Eastern forehand? Are you sure?

No way... continental grip with the wrist laid back (knuckles toward the elbow).
Cup under the ball and "throw" the racquet and wrist in the direction you want the ball to go. Do not break the wrist laterally, keep the wrist firm.

Hard to describe in words. A pro should be teaching you the basics of good technique.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 01:19 PM
No way... continental grip with the wrist laid back (knuckles toward the elbow).
Cup under the ball and "throw" the racquet and wrist in the direction you want the ball to go. Do not break the wrist laterally, keep the wrist firm.

Hard to describe in words. A pro should be teaching you the basics of good technique.

LOL, I think you misread my comment. I am not trying to learn the slice backhand. I already know how to teach and hit a slice backhand.

I am making the comment to LeeD's statement that pros hit a slice backhand using an Eastern FOREHAND grip.

Slicendicer
02-05-2009, 01:23 PM
LOL, I think you misread my comment. I am not trying to learn the slice backhand. I already know how to teach and hit a slice backhand.

I am making the comment to LeeD's statement that pros hit a slice backhand using an Eastern FOREHAND grip.

Yep... sorry... eastern fh slice... BAD FORM!

junbumkim
02-05-2009, 01:28 PM
LOL, I think you misread my comment. I am not trying to learn the slice backhand. I already know how to teach and hit a slice backhand.



Are you SURE ABOUT this!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Sorry B.Bill...Just messing around..

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 01:29 PM
Yeah, I hate to say eastern forehand side of continental, but it's true.

It is true? Really? Wow, in all the years I have studied the slice backhand, I have never once noticed or learned that they use the EASTERN FOREHAND GRIP.

Are you okay? I am becoming worried about you now. :-|

Remember one thing different about the pros.... if they bother to switch to a real eastern backhand grip, they will just as soon rip a topspin shot.

Really? So, hitting a slice backhand does not depend on the BALL they are receiving, their court position, their tactics or strategy? It is simply if they are close to the topspin bakchand grip, just hit topspin? Is that your reasoning?

Are you okay? I am becoming worried about you now. :-|

That cont with east backhand flavor is the CHANGE OF PACE shot, the retrieval when they want to rest, and the "I dare you to approach" shot....

Oh I see, yeah, okay...

Are you okay? I am becoming worried about you now. :-|

Not saying it's full relevant here, but once long time ago,

Uh oh, here we go...I am with ya, "once a long time ago", a space ship landed and these aliens with one eye and green skin taught us how to hit a slice backhand, not the ones that you CHANGE OF PACE on, but the other ones, you know, the ones you don't hit a topspin backhand on...yeah...those...whatever they are...

one of the current #4 ranked Pro player, one RaulRameriz (sp), told me about that wierd defensive grip. It puts more slice with less pace, what the pros are looking for in a change of pace shot.
Few pros actually slice normally, so that explains our differences from that of pros..

I am talking about the pros. And what differences are we talking about? I am simply asking you, based on your statement, to see if...well...to see if you can let me know what kind of drugs you are taking.

I think they are really really good.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Are you SURE ABOUT this!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Sorry B.Bill...Just messing around..

Well...you might have something there. It was there the last time I checked. ;)

Tomek_tennis
02-05-2009, 02:02 PM
continental

Djokovicfan4life
02-05-2009, 02:08 PM
Mild eastern for the win. Perfect blend of drive and wrist stability.

Matt

Lotto
02-05-2009, 02:17 PM
I agree with BB LeeD. Pros using an eastern forehand grip to hit a slice backhand is proposterous. The slice backhand isn't really my favourite shot. I nearly ALWAYS drive the ball on my backhand unless I'm feeling lazy or I HAVE to.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 03:06 PM
You guys are wrong first of all.
Second of all, you guys approach the problem from the wrong side...
You see, if you watch Feds slice during a long rally, check out his contact point and how MUCH slice he puts into the underspin shot. It is NOT like your slices!
Now see Nadal's one handed slice, when he does it that is. Same grip, hit sorta close to his shoulder, NOT out in front like he'd hit with any normal grip.
I did NOT say to slice with Eastern Forehand. You 14 year olds who don't understand what you read say I did. NOPE !!:twisted: I said continental with an eastern forehand flavor. That is DIFFERENT than eastern forehand grip.
We slice as a normal shot. The pros slice as a change of pace. Different idea, different grip.
RaulRameriz was ranked like #4 IN THE WORLD like 1975 or so. I talked to him while stringing some of his Kramers. He decked me with that statement of cont with a slight bias towards eastern FOREHAND for low sliced balls.
Since then, notice the PRO tennis players slices, especially the Roddick and other two hander's slices. Taken late, long full stroke with solid body position, it's NOT the slice YOU DUFFERS use.
Now given you 4.0 and under players, DO NOT USE THIS GRIP !!! It is not recommended for you. It's only for the top players going for a change of pace shot!
SteffiGrafs backhand is exactly that grip. Cont for sure, but a few degrees towards the forehand side to affect more than normal underspin on the ball. Now you know why, so I won't tell you:):)
Thanks for considering worrying about my scrambled brains, BungalowBill, but this comes straight from some PRO players, not something I just made up on the fly.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 03:26 PM
I fully agree with Slicendicer, not that you care....
Some pros use wierd grips and abberation swings, and it works FOR THEM. We are NOT telling everyone to use those "uncommon" techniques. We are merely pointing out that there are more than one ways to skin your cat:evil:
Dis thread... I'm talking PROFESSIONAL players. They can use whatever they want.
You guys are talking instruction for players still learning to play tennis. TWO DIFFERENT BEASTS!!!!
If I was telling a 3.8 player about how to hit slice backhands, I'd say go EASTERN BACKHAND grip first. Then you can try continental to lessen the # of needed grips in competition.
If you tell Roddick to change his one handed SLICE grip, he'd say :twisted::twisted:
See, TWO DIFFERENT SLICED BACKHANDS !!

Slicendicer
02-05-2009, 03:31 PM
I fully agree with Slicendicer, not that you care....


That may not be too good for me...

FULL DISCLOSURE: I speak only for myself.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 03:32 PM
Slicendicer....
Are you a superior reincarnation of me?:):)
Guys here say I argue all the time with certified coaches.
I say the coaches don't know .......
There is MORE than ONE way to play the game of tennis.:shock:

tennisfreak15347
02-05-2009, 03:36 PM
Y
We slice as a normal shot. The pros slice as a change of pace. Different idea, different grip.

Now given you 4.0 and under players, DO NOT USE THIS GRIP !!! It is not recommended for you. It's only for the top players going for a change of pace shot!


are you saying we don't slice for the same reason? that IS why people use slice... :neutral: and now, why are you suggesting 4.0 and under players not to use this grip, when you have two contradicting statements here:

As a one hander, I employ slices from both a traditional eastern backhand grip and that weird conglomeration of grips I mentioned. That wierd conglom grip works really well.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 03:40 PM
The "do not use this grip" thing is for all the coach's and tennis teachers on this forum. If I was teaching tennis, I'd advocate eastern backhand slices.
But I"m NOT advocation anything, just observing that some pros use a wierd grip for their match play slices.
Like.... see that way they do it? Don't copy. But if you wish, copy:):):)

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 03:55 PM
You guys are wrong first of all.

So we are wrong. Okaaaaayyyyy...

So pros use an eastern backhand favored slice just to change the pace of the ball.

Pros use an Eastern forehand slice to nail it. Is this correct?

Second of all, you guys approach the problem from the wrong side...
You see, if you watch Feds slice during a long rally, check out his contact point and how MUCH slice he puts into the underspin shot. It is NOT like your slices!

Federer hits a good slice but many players arent far off from hitting slice shots that bite and also put a lot of underspin on the ball.

And how do you know what my slice is like? Once again, you post these ridiculous claims.

Now see Nadal's one handed slice, when he does it that is. Same grip, hit sorta close to his shoulder, NOT out in front like he'd hit with any normal grip.

I did NOT say to slice with Eastern Forehand. You 14 year olds who don't understand what you read say I did. NOPE !!:twisted: I said continental with an eastern forehand flavor. That is DIFFERENT than eastern forehand grip.
We slice as a normal shot. The pros slice as a change of pace. Different idea, different grip.

Actually I did understand. And I am not 14 years old. You said that pros use a Continental grip with an EASTERN FOREHAND GRIP FLAVOR. Meaning the hand is shifted towardss the Eastern forehand. Is that correct? I want to be sure before we debate this.



And then the space ship landed?

[quote]Since then, notice the PRO tennis players slices, especially the Roddick and other two hander's slices. Taken late, long full stroke with solid body position, it's NOT the slice YOU DUFFERS use.
Now given you 4.0 and under players, DO NOT USE THIS GRIP !!! It is not recommended for you. It's only for the top players going for a change of pace shot!

Okay...I guess I will have to debate this to find out if you are right. I will give you a fair shot at this. Prove it.

SteffiGrafs backhand is exactly that grip. Cont for sure, but a few degrees towards the forehand side to affect more than normal underspin on the ball. Now you know why, so I won't tell you:):)

Okay, so is everyone buying this? He has some good drugs doesnt he?

Thanks for considering worrying about my scrambled brains, BungalowBill, but this comes straight from some PRO players, not something I just made up on the fly.

It comes straight form the pros, and you talked to all of these pros?

Djokovicfan4life
02-05-2009, 04:04 PM
LeeD no hear of wrist stable thing, no?

LeeD
02-05-2009, 04:09 PM
You funny guy, BungalowBill...
But you are sooo inflexible in your approach to tennis. To you, there is ONE way to play tennis, YOUR WAY.
Yes, I strung rackets for Rameriz, DickStockton, and MikeCahill. Yes, I hung around and listened while ColinDibley rambled on about all subjects while downing GERMAN beer, not Fosters.
Yes, I was standing with IlanaKloss and Rosie while Steffi was hitting one handed topspin backhands, and watched her slices too.
Maybe I'm no famous coach or teacher.
Maybe I'm a lousy 4.0 player.
That doesn't mean I didn't talk to those players, or watch them closely....like standing at the side of the net!
What would you say about FrancoiseDurr's backhand?
What would you say about McEnroes volleys?
Waht would you say about JuanIgnacioChela's service motion?
EllenDementiava's?
How about FrewMcMillan or GeneMayer's two handed strokes?
YOU teach tennis your way.
There are lots of different ways to play tennis.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 04:27 PM
You funny guy, BungalowBill...
But you are sooo inflexible in your approach to tennis. To you, there is ONE way to play tennis, YOUR WAY.

No, once again you are wrong. I am very flexible in my tennis approach until someone posts nonsense things. I have a whole slew of tennis coaches that I have learned from; CoachingMastery, John Yandell, Vic Braden, Oscar Wegner, Various Junior Coaches in So. Cal, various coaches that authored books...

I dont care if you think that a player should run out to the courts naked and just "feel" there way to hitting a great tennis ball.

What I do care about is when you say it is sound instruction or someone says they dont need coaching because it is bad for you kind of nonsense. You can bet your sweet bippy I will comment on that and I will be inflexible.

Yes, I strung rackets for Rameriz, DickStockton, and MikeCahill. Yes, I hung around and listened while ColinDibley rambled on about all subjects while downing GERMAN beer, not Fosters.
Yes, I was standing with IlanaKloss and Rosie while Steffi was hitting one handed topspin backhands, and watched her slices too.
Maybe I'm no famous coach or teacher.
Maybe I'm a lousy 4.0 player.
That doesn't mean I didn't talk to those players, or watch them closely....like standing at the side of the net!
What would you say about FrancoiseDurr's backhand?
What would you say about McEnroes volleys?
Waht would you say about JuanIgnacioChela's service motion?
EllenDementiava's?
How about FrewMcMillan or GeneMayer's two handed strokes?
YOU teach tennis your way.
There are lots of different ways to play tennis.

I dont care about this. I care about what you said as truth.

You said that pros hit a slice backhand with a continental grip that favors the EASTERN forehand.

I am also not going to isolate the few people with unorthodox ways in hitting a stroke as something the masses should start doing. There has to be some responsibility here in what you provide as instruction or advice.

Bad advice exists in all industries and just because someone else is doing it does not mean it is good advice! Just look at the the stock market for goodness sakes!

Do you run out and invest on everything people tell you? Or do you do your research and find out HOW to invest properly. I am not saying that instruction is the Holy Grail, all I am saying is good sound instruction provides a beacon, a light, or guidance for a player to develop a good tennis stroke using their own capabilities. It helps shape their swing properly to maximize thier enjoyment of the game.

I want you to prove your statement about the following:

1. Pros hit with a Contienntal grip that favors an Eastern forehand grip.

2. Pros only use the Continental grip that favors the Eastern backhand tojust change the pace of the ball.

You either prove this or this is not true.

Lotto
02-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Not really different ways to play tennis, there's grip alterations, there's different types of styles of play and backswings but at the end of the day technically every single pro player shares the same fundamentals on every stroke. On the forehand for instance LeeD, if there's many ways to play tennis why are all of the strokes practically the same except for the backswing?

EVERY PRO stroke has the unit turn

EVERY PRO stroke has a backswing (not all the same, all varied and unique yet doesn't affect the stroke, if that were the case then all pros would have the same type of backswing as John Yandell says)

EVERY PRO develops a hitting arm structure ( Double bend or Straight, mostly double bend but a few are straight. e.g. Nadal, Verdasco, Young. Federer also but he can hit any of them)

EVERY PRO pulls the racquet to the ball butt cap first.

EVERY PRO PUSHES or DRIVES through the ball and LIFTS to apply Topspin.



I'm sorry but to be a successful tennis player there are limited ways to learn the game, there are fundamentals, and only small things can be varied which don't cause a big difference in the stroke, i.e. Backswings.

Same on every stroke. I know we're talking about grips but this is just to your response that "There are lots of different ways to play tennis."


As far as the grip question goes though, I'm wondering what grip is the msot common, pure continental or mild eastern backhand aka pro serving grip or what?

LeeD
02-05-2009, 04:35 PM
Sorry BungalowBill, once again you miss the mark.
You said I said EVERY PRO HITS CONT with a slice of EASTERN BACK !
NOPE. I said SOME pros use this grip, and I made specific names.
You and Dj for life seem to always infer all sorts of your own thoughts into what I say. Please read and understand.
OK, you understood my grip I mentioned. BUT, what did you type? YOU typed EASTERN FOREHAND..... period !
Now admit your mistake before you post further.
At least DJ for life did admit his mistake.
See, you are NOT GOD. Your training doesn't DOES NOT entitle you as a all knowing tennis coach.
You are just a learned tennis coach trying to help others. As is Dj for life and a few other guys. As a tennis coach, you already admitted you were WR
ONG before (beginner service grip).
Now can't you understand that you can be wrong again !!
If you and all those coaches are sooooo great, where is the next USA tennis pro?

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 04:37 PM
I'm sorry but to be a successful tennis player there are limited ways to learn the game, there are fundamentals, and only small things can be varied which don't cause a big difference in the stroke, i.e. Backswings.

Perfectly said. This is what is true. This is the direction a tennis player needs to take and understand in order to improve and be able to play their best tennis.

The sport of tennis is not immune to hardwork and setbacks. It takes drive, heart, ambition, dedication, hardwork, practice, drills, and mastering the fundamentals to be the best you can be as a tennis player.

Many people here pt the cart before the horse. They say "just do what feels natural." This is the worst way to learn tennis and get good at it.

A tennis player wiht aspirations to succeed needs to learn how to hit the ball properly so the mind can absorb and figure out the patterns it needs to fire the muscles a certain way.

Once the brain understands and the player begins to master the patterns and sequences, then automation is appropriate. The player needs to train themselves to empty their thoughts, relax, let what they trained their body to do perform in the way the body knows how to perform. They then need to free their minds from technical things about their form and begin learnig how to focus on the point, the match, etc...and even some of that gets absorbed and becomes intuitive.

LeeD
02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
Sorry, BungalowBill, that last sentence wasn't fair to you and your good intentions.
I was caught in the emotional moment.
Diss my history if you want, but it's true, I talked to those guys while they hung around as I strung their rackets.

ttbrowne
02-05-2009, 04:49 PM
Mentioned this many times here but the reason Fed gets so much bite on the slice is NOT because of anything he does BEFORE he hits the ball. It's what he does AFTER he hits it.

Watch Fed hit an average slice and you'll see that AFTER the contact he literally makes a V with both of his arms BEHIND his back. THIS is the key to the bite he gets with the slice.

I too was confounded with his ability to get so much underspin. No pros were able to tell me. I studied his slice over and over and over and over. Then, I finally saw it! The V! He brings his arms back to an exaggerated position. I don't know of any other pro that hits it quite like this.

I tried it. It works. Of course the problem is timing. But I would recommend any of the 4.5 and above young players to experiment with this technique.

Bring your arms back til they are uncomfortable in the follow-thru. It's almost a touch shot. Very difficult.

Bungalo Bill
02-05-2009, 05:25 PM
Sorry, BungalowBill, that last sentence wasn't fair to you and your good intentions.
I was caught in the emotional moment.
Diss my history if you want, but it's true, I talked to those guys while they hung around as I strung their rackets.

I know the last statement is not true and I am not dissing your history, I just dont think it is relevant.

You made a statement about how pros hit the slice backhand with a Continental grip that favors the Eastern forehand grip. This is something new to me and before I start believing it and perhaps changing my perception and advice, I want to know if this is true or false.

You have a habit of making statements, this is one I want to know if it is true.

Ballinbob
02-05-2009, 06:09 PM
I just use a continental. I don't use these weird in between grips you guys talk about. "5.52 degrees towards eastern forehand"...lol you've got to be kidding me.

I'm pretty sure continental is the best grip and most common grip for this shot though.

Djokovicfan4life
02-05-2009, 06:18 PM
I just use a continental. I don't use these weird in between grips you guys talk about. "5.52 degrees towards eastern forehand"...lol you've got to be kidding me.

I'm pretty sure continental is the best grip and most common grip for this shot though.

Ah yes, over-analysis in trivial matters. The path to success for the inspiring keyboard warrior.

autumn_leaf
02-05-2009, 06:24 PM
i would use continental or eastern backhand.

using grips like eastern fh or semiwestern like someone said will open up the face of the racquet too much leading to pop ups. only way i see a semi-western working is a stroke on a near vertical angle and the wrist bent like a western fh, which sounds painful.

oneguy21
02-05-2009, 06:28 PM
I prefer a mild continental slighty toward the eastern backhand with the very subtle flavor of a western forehand not to mention a slight essence of an inverted semi-western backhand.


Perfect grip for a backhand slice.

AlphaCDjkr
02-05-2009, 06:41 PM
I find that my grip really varies depending on what grip I happened to be holding beforehand. However, it usually revolves around two forms: Continental+Eastern FH, and Continental + Eastern BH.

I find that when I slice with Continental/Eastern FH, I'll produce a slow paced, high spin, floaty slice (best for drop shots and longitudinal sidespin)
When I use Continental/Eastern BH, I notice that the slice tends to have more pace and control, and penetrates into the court more.

So.. that's me.

beckham
02-05-2009, 06:42 PM
I use a continential grip for everything, except my forehand, which is semi-western.

junbumkim
02-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Not really different ways to play tennis, there's grip alterations, there's different types of styles of play and backswings but at the end of the day technically every single pro player shares the same fundamentals on every stroke. On the forehand for instance LeeD, if there's many ways to play tennis why are all of the strokes practically the same except for the backswing?

EVERY PRO stroke has the unit turn

EVERY PRO stroke has a backswing (not all the same, all varied and unique yet doesn't affect the stroke, if that were the case then all pros would have the same type of backswing as John Yandell says)

EVERY PRO develops a hitting arm structure ( Double bend or Straight, mostly double bend but a few are straight. e.g. Nadal, Verdasco, Young. Federer also but he can hit any of them)

EVERY PRO pulls the racquet to the ball butt cap first.

EVERY PRO PUSHES or DRIVES through the ball and LIFTS to apply Topspin.



I'm sorry but to be a successful tennis player there are limited ways to learn the game, there are fundamentals, and only small things can be varied which don't cause a big difference in the stroke, i.e. Backswings.

Same on every stroke. I know we're talking about grips but this is just to your response that "There are lots of different ways to play tennis."


As far as the grip question goes though, I'm wondering what grip is the msot common, pure continental or mild eastern backhand aka pro serving grip or what?

For a moment, I thought LeeD wrote this post, and was very shocked in a pleasant way.. Then I realized it was someone else............Expectations never disappoint me.

Djokovicfan4life
02-05-2009, 07:41 PM
Your willingness to take heed to the voice of experience really sets you apart from the crowd, LeeD.

Matt

[d]ragon
02-05-2009, 07:41 PM
http://resources.sportingo.com/gallery/16292_275x189.jpg
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Backcourt/General/2007_08_23_Federer_article.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/normbradwell/SAEedgyNClI/AAAAAAAACY0/cdxz5FFH5LU/federer26%5B3%5D.jpg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss2739/images/20040925006300802.jpg

Hmm, looks Continental leaning towards Eastern BH to me (thought I'd throw a Sampras in too). I bet not every pro hits theirs this way though.
Eastern BH is what I use. Previously I had been trying to hit it with a regular Continental and even tried a bit of Eastern FH but they never seemed to work. Switching to the Eastern BH has definitely helped my slice a lot.

Djokovicfan4life
02-05-2009, 07:44 PM
ragon;3105039']http://resources.sportingo.com/gallery/16292_275x189.jpg
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Backcourt/General/2007_08_23_Federer_article.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/normbradwell/SAEedgyNClI/AAAAAAAACY0/cdxz5FFH5LU/federer26%5B3%5D.jpg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss2739/images/20040925006300802.jpg

Hmm, looks Continental leaning towards Eastern BH to me (thought I'd throw a Sampras in too). I bet not every pro hits theirs this way though.
Eastern BH is what I use. Previously I had been trying to hit it with a regular Continental and even tried a bit of Eastern FH but they never seemed to work. Switching to the Eastern BH has definitely helped my slice a lot.

Personally I am of the belief that this is the best possible grip for most players. What the eastern grips essentially do is offer improved stability in the wrist, so IMO this grip offers the perfect balance between stability and control in the sense that it's not extreme enough to hinder the players technique in the process.

Matt

Slicendicer
02-05-2009, 08:13 PM
ragon;3105039']http://resources.sportingo.com/gallery/16292_275x189.jpg
http://www.tennis.com/uploadedImages/Backcourt/General/2007_08_23_Federer_article.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/normbradwell/SAEedgyNClI/AAAAAAAACY0/cdxz5FFH5LU/federer26%5B3%5D.jpg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss2739/images/20040925006300802.jpg

Hmm, looks Continental leaning towards Eastern BH to me (thought I'd throw a Sampras in too). I bet not every pro hits theirs this way though.
Eastern BH is what I use. Previously I had been trying to hit it with a regular Continental and even tried a bit of Eastern FH but they never seemed to work. Switching to the Eastern BH has definitely helped my slice a lot.

Continental, yes, I don't see an Eastern BH grip in any of those pic's. Not saying any grip is right or wrong, you play with whatever works best... but that isn't Eastern BH grip.

orangettecoleman
02-05-2009, 08:59 PM
I noticed that Nadal uses something close to an Eastern FH grip when hitting a slice backhand. It's really awkward looking. Graf's backhand grip was really close to an eastern FH as well. I tried it, it gets you TONS of slice but i can't imagine how anyone who uses that grip can control their placement unless all they want to do is hit drop shots.

Bud
02-05-2009, 10:18 PM
Hi guys,

I'm just wondering, what grip do you use on your slice backhand and what grips do most of the pros use? Just wondering because I've always used the continental but I've heard other people talking about the Eastern Backhand??
What grip does Federer use does anybody know? :confused:

Continental.

Bud
02-05-2009, 10:19 PM
Continental, yes, I don't see an Eastern BH grip in any of those pic's. Not saying any grip is right or wrong, you play with whatever works best... but that isn't Eastern BH grip.

That looks more like a volley from Sampras as opposed to a slice.

Bud
02-05-2009, 10:21 PM
Really? You should talk to StormHolloway, he thinks everything is learned naturally. Or maybe you just had a coach that kept barking in your ear confusing your inner child. I think that is it.

But ouch on the SW grip. You must roll your elbow forward and swing from the lower arm a bunch.

:lol::lol::lol:

Bud
02-05-2009, 10:23 PM
Hi guys,

I'm just wondering, what grip do you use on your slice backhand and what grips do most of the pros use? Just wondering because I've always used the continental but I've heard other people talking about the Eastern Backhand??
What grip does Federer use does anybody know? :confused:

The forehand slice, squash shot and drop shot are all continental grip, too.

Bud
02-05-2009, 10:31 PM
You funny guy, BungalowBill...
But you are sooo inflexible in your approach to tennis. To you, there is ONE way to play tennis, YOUR WAY.
Yes, I strung rackets for Rameriz, DickStockton, and MikeCahill. Yes, I hung around and listened while ColinDibley rambled on about all subjects while downing GERMAN beer, not Fosters.
Yes, I was standing with IlanaKloss and Rosie while Steffi was hitting one handed topspin backhands, and watched her slices too.
Maybe I'm no famous coach or teacher.
Maybe I'm a lousy 4.0 player.
That doesn't mean I didn't talk to those players, or watch them closely....like standing at the side of the net!
What would you say about FrancoiseDurr's backhand?
What would you say about McEnroes volleys?
Waht would you say about JuanIgnacioChela's service motion?
EllenDementiava's?
How about FrewMcMillan or GeneMayer's two handed strokes?
YOU teach tennis your way.
There are lots of different ways to play tennis.

Did you also walk to school during major blizzards, uphill both ways, without shoes? :D

Nellie
02-06-2009, 05:53 AM
You see players hit good slices with either the eastern backhand grip and the continental. Really, the difference is about how much you want to drive the ball (More eastern) versus hitting a heavy slice that grabs the ground and stays low (more continential).

Also, the difference in grips often depends on your normal backhand grip (semi-western versus eastern backhand). This is because most players continue to use a similar contact point (i.e, so if you hit the ball more in front, you will do better with a eastern grip for slice, whereas if you hit further back, e.g., around your hip, the continental will often work better.

dman72
02-06-2009, 06:06 AM
Continental, yes, I don't see an Eastern BH grip in any of those pic's. Not saying any grip is right or wrong, you play with whatever works best... but that isn't Eastern BH grip.

I agree..their base knuckle is nowhere near being on top of the racquet..it IS closer to being on bevel 3 than bevel 1.

SystemicAnomaly
02-06-2009, 06:13 AM
ragon;3105039']http://resources.sportingo.com/gallery/16292_275x189.jpg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss2739/images/20040925006300802.jpg

Hmm, looks Continental leaning towards Eastern BH to me (thought I'd throw a Sampras in too)...

Dunno guys, perhaps LeeD had a valid point here. I don't see these as classic Continental grips (with the index knuckle squarely on bevel 2 as the primary reference). These do not lean toward the E Bh grip either as this poster claims. To me they shade a bit toward a semi-Continental (or a bit toward the E Fh grip).

Please note, I am not saying that these are Eastern Fh grips.

dman72
02-06-2009, 06:17 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/2656363705_6f384657e4.jpg?v=0

hmmmmm

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 06:34 AM
Ah yes, over-analysis in trivial matters. The path to success for the inspiring keyboard warrior.

Yes, you folks are right. From a players perspective we are splitting hairs. However, from a coaching perspective it is important to know.

The reason it is important to know is if the hand is moved towards the Eastern forehand grip, the crease in the wrist has less of a chance of being there. In other words, the wrist would be placed in a weaker position then it already is with the Continental grip. The bend in the wrist would be the opposite so that the player can "flatten" the racquet face.

Thus, the shock that is sent up from ball impact would move up the arm into the elbow area because of the weak position of the wrist.

The more you place your grip towards the eastern forehand for a backhand slice, the more open the racquet face will be if you leave your wrist alone with its normal bend or crease. This is an important thing to know from a coaching perspective.

From what I have studied, players (pros included) use the Continental or they make an adjustment towards the Eastern backhand to situate the wrist in a more comfortable stronger position.

Now, nobody needs to go any further on this subject unless you are a coach and want to know if this is true or false. You guys need to understand that tennis is one of those "free spirited" sports that has a lot of quirky instruction and advice. All you have to do is go out to the courts and just watch all the different quirky motions for the serve, the forehand, volleying. You will notice players in grips that are not suited for the stroke they are hitting. So their arm gets shaped into weird movements to hit a ball.

dman72
02-06-2009, 06:40 AM
Yes, you folks are right. From a players perspective we are splitting hairs. However, from a coaching perspective it is important to know.

The reason it is important to know is if the hand is moved towards the Eastern forehand grip, the crease in the wrist has less of a chance of being there. In other words, the wrist would be placed in a weaker position then it already is with the Continental grip. The bend in the wrist would be the opposite so that the player can "flatten" the racquet face.

Thus, the shock that is sent up from ball impact would move up the arm into the elbow area because of the weak position of the wrist.

The more you place your grip towards the eastern forehand for a backhand slice, the more open the racquet face will be. This is an important thing to know from a coaching perspective.

From what I have studied, players (pros included) use the Continental or the make an adjustment towards the eastenr backhand to situate the wrist in a more confortable stronger position.

Now, nobody needs to go any further on this subject unless you are a coach and want to know if this is true or false.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm only coming from a pure "call em like I see em" perspective...all 3 photos posted....Nadal, Fed, Sampras..the grip is closer to Eastern Forehand than Eastern backhand. Whether a beginner or recreational player should try that is a different story.

To tell you the truth, the first few years of my hack tennis life..this is how I hit a backhand...I didn't know better. Every ball hit to my backhand side was a slice dropshot because I hit it with an Eastern forehand grip...the same as my beginners forehand.

I have to say, it was incredibly successful with people at my level, and annoyed the hell out of everyone I played, but obviously, a better player would simply rush the net after hitting the ball to my backhand and get an easy volley.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 06:44 AM
Dunno guys, perhaps LeeD had a valid point here. I don't see these as classic Continental grips (with the index knuckle squarely on bevel 2 as the primary reference). These do not lean toward the E Bh grip either as this poster claims. To me they shade a bit toward a semi-Continental (or a bit toward the E Fh grip).

Please note, I am not saying that these are Eastern Fh grips.

They use a continental grip.

Djokovicfan4life
02-06-2009, 06:44 AM
Continental, yes, I don't see an Eastern BH grip in any of those pic's. Not saying any grip is right or wrong, you play with whatever works best... but that isn't Eastern BH grip.

Well, personally I believe that it definitely looks like it favors the EBH grip. Try looking at the angle of the wrist instead of where the index knuckle is placed. The continental grip promotes a neutral wrist position, so this should tell you something.

Matt

dman72
02-06-2009, 06:50 AM
Well, personally I believe that it definitely looks like it favors the EBH grip. Try looking at the angle of the wrist instead of where the index knuckle is placed. The continental grip promotes a neutral wrist position, so this should tell you something.

Matt

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06ftemZ7Xv582/340x.jpg


This is sampras topspin backhand grip, eastern backhand....his slice grip is quite different from this.

Djokovicfan4life
02-06-2009, 06:50 AM
Yes, you folks are right. From a players perspective we are splitting hairs. However, from a coaching perspective it is important to know.

The reason it is important to know is if the hand is moved towards the Eastern forehand grip, the crease in the wrist has less of a chance of being there. In other words, the wrist would be placed in a weaker position then it already is with the Continental grip. The bend in the wrist would be the opposite so that the player can "flatten" the racquet face.

Thus, the shock that is sent up from ball impact would move up the arm into the elbow area because of the weak position of the wrist.

The more you place your grip towards the eastern forehand for a backhand slice, the more open the racquet face will be if you leave your wrist alone with its normal bend or crease. This is an important thing to know from a coaching perspective.

From what I have studied, players (pros included) use the Continental or they make an adjustment towards the Eastern backhand to situate the wrist in a more comfortable stronger position.

Now, nobody needs to go any further on this subject unless you are a coach and want to know if this is true or false. You guys need to understand that tennis is one of those "free spirited" sports that has a lot of quirky instruction and advice. All you have to do is go out to the courts and just watch all the different quirky motions for the serve, the forehand, volleying. You will notice players in grips that are not suited for the stroke they are hitting. So their arm gets shaped into weird movements to hit a ball.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I still can't stand the feeling of a pure continental for the slice though: any tips strictly from a coaching standpoint for players that may prefer this?

Djokovicfan4life
02-06-2009, 06:53 AM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06ftemZ7Xv582/340x.jpg


This is sampras topspin backhand grip, eastern backhand....his slice grip is quite different from this.

Agreed. His BH slice was hit using a mild eastern, while he utilized the full eastern backhand for drives, which is the same method I use, personally. This is key because there IS a difference between the two.

Matt

Slicendicer
02-06-2009, 06:54 AM
Well, personally I believe that it definitely looks like it favors the EBH grip. Try looking at the angle of the wrist instead of where the index knuckle is placed. The continental grip promotes a neutral wrist position, so this should tell you something.

Matt

I always "flex" the wrist when volley or slicing the ball. Knuckles toward the elbow, provides a natural shock absorber, and access to underspin/sidespin
A locked, straight wrist is asking for tendonitis...

dman72
02-06-2009, 07:01 AM
Agreed. His BH slice was hit using a mild eastern, while he utilized the full eastern backhand for drives, which is the same method I use, personally. This is key because there IS a difference between the two.

Matt

The slice is at a MINIMUM a Continental, and actually leads towards EFH.

The drive is EBH.

Nadals leans heavily towards EFH in the picture I linked.

mental midget
02-06-2009, 07:28 AM
How are there 65 comments on this question?

conti-freaking-nental. EOM.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 07:44 AM
I WANT TO KNOW IF WE ALL AGREE THAT PROS FAVOR THEIR CONTINENTAL GRIP TOWARDS AN EASTERN FOREHAND FOR A SLICE BACKHAND.

ARE WE ALl IN AGREEMENT. I AM NOT YET. WHO IS AND WHY?

Slicendicer
02-06-2009, 07:51 AM
I WANT TO KNOW IF WE ALL AGREE THAT PROS FAVOR THEIR CONTINENTAL GRIP TOWARDS AN EASTERN FOREHAND FOR A SLICE BACKHAND.

ARE WE ALl IN AGREEMENT. I AM NOT YET. WHO IS AND WHY?

Continental, but the grip can vary depending on shot selection and desired result.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 08:06 AM
Continental, but the grip can vary depending on shot selection and desired result.

I can buy into this, however, I have always thought the grip leaned more towards the backhand rather than the forehand. The forehand doesnt make sense to me because you would have to flatten the wrist to get the racquet angle right to hit a driving slice. From the looks of the pictures above, the wrist position is favoring a continental or towards the backhand side.

Am I right or wrong and why?

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 08:14 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm only coming from a pure "call em like I see em" perspective...all 3 photos posted....Nadal, Fed, Sampras..the grip is closer to Eastern Forehand than Eastern backhand. Whether a beginner or recreational player should try that is a different story.

You of all people shouldnow that a camera angle does not tell all. It is very difficult to tell in these pictures because the picture is not taken at ALL angles.

How many times do we have to watch replays in a football game to get the right angle to see if the person scored a touchdown or if he stepped out of bounds. You can not tell by these pictures.

We need to understand what happens to the wrist position when someone moves their hand towards an Eastern forehand to keep the racquet head properly angled in a driving slice.

LeeD said that if it goes towards the backhand side, pros tend to hit a change of pace ball. I am competely not in agreement with this and I want to know if he is saying things accurately.

I am not trying to prove my point, all I am saying is the evidence that is being displayed here is inconclusive.

dman72
02-06-2009, 08:41 AM
You of all people shouldnow that a camera angle does not tell all. It is very difficult to tell in these pictures because the picture is not taken at ALL angles.

How many times do we have to watch replays in a football game to get the right angle to see if the person scored a touchdown or if he stepped out of bounds. You can not tell by these pictures.

We need to understand what happens to the wrist position when someone moves their hand towards an Eastern forehand to keep the racquet head properly angled in a driving slice.

LeeD said that if it goes towards the backhand side, pros tend to hit a change of pace ball. I am competely not in agreement with this and I want to know if he is saying things accurately.

I am not trying to prove my point, all I am saying is the evidence that is being displayed here is inconclusive.

In terms of the change of pace shot, I think it would be the other way around...more slice from the eastern forehand side of conti, more drive from the EBH side. I don't think you possibly could get any drive hitting a backhand with an EFH grip.

I, on the other hand, have hit slice that bounced back over the net with a backhand hit with EFH grip. Strange way to lose a point.


As for the camera angle...the 2nd shot of Federer in the trio above..there is absolutely no way that his base knuckle is on top of the racket there, bevel one. It just isn't. Your eyes aren't seeing clearly if you say it is. Sorry.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 08:43 AM
Personally, I would love to hit Eastern BACKHAND slice balls. But I find they tend to fly, not get the amount of spin to make the ball go oval, don't skid and bounce off to the side.....
So my pure slice is continental with a twist towards Eastern forehand, to get the extreme spin with some side flavor, to allow myself a strong driving stroke, and to control depth and height.
Maybe it's the same with my volleys. The forehand needs some help beyond pure continental, so I twist it a bit towards forehand. A BIT!
That same grip works on the backhand volley because I, like most other good volleyers, tend to take a longer swing, more body movement forwards, and try for more spin on the BACKHAND VOLLEY, than I do with a short punch forehand volley.
So I employ that same grip for baseline rallies when I'm lazy, which happens quite often to someone approaching 60 years of age :shock::confused:
NO, I would not teach this method to a beginner (anyone less than 4.0 ranked). Yes, I advocate it at the top levels because those guys already have a driving topspin reliable backhand, and need a change of place to complement their drive shots.
Take note... lately, even the SW forehand, on wide balls, can be sliced low and deep for a defensive return.
We cannot hit all balls on the offensive.

dman72
02-06-2009, 08:49 AM
http://tennis.about.com/od/playersmale/ss/murraysbs_6.htm


yet another pro hitting slice/dropshot with an EFH grip.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 08:52 AM
In terms of the change of pace shot, I think it would be the other way around...more slice from the eastern forehand side of conti, more drive from the EBH side. I don't think you possibly could get any drive hitting a backhand with an EFH grip.

I am in agreement with your take on "the other way around". Whe I hit a driving slice, my grip is towards the Eastenr backhand side not the forehand side.

But just to make sure we dont twist LeeD's comments, he did not say EFH grip. He said a Continental grip that FAVORS the Eastern forehand side. There is a big difference.

Now, if this becomes one of things were it is so slight? Then we are splitting hairs and I would just call it a Continental.

As for the camera angle...the 2nd shot of Federer in the trio above..there is absolutely no way that his base knuckle is on top of the racket there, bevel one. It just isn't. Your eyes aren't seeing clearly if you say it is. Sorry.

Again, we are confusing things and putting words in my mouth. I am not talking about the base knuckle on the top bevel. You just said this. I didn't.

I am talking about a CONTINENTAL grip that favors a EBH grip. It is still continental.

Nellie
02-06-2009, 08:53 AM
Could do see how a drop shot could be hit with more of an eastern forehand grip since you could lead with the edge of the racquet

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 08:56 AM
http://tennis.about.com/od/playersmale/ss/murraysbs_6.htm


yet another pro hitting slice/dropshot with an EFH grip.

I am not trying to say pros dont ever use an Eastern forehand grip!!!

I am saying that the connection between favoring and EFH grip for a driving slice as compared to "change of pace" ball is not sitting right with me.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 09:02 AM
Hi BungalowBill....
I assume your volleys are one handed.
I also assume your forehand volley is short punch stroke, similar to Feds.
I again assume your backhand volley is a much longer underspin stroke, using more body turn and forward movement, similar to almost every top pro volleyer.
Well, that backhand volley grip is what I use for a defensive hard sliced ball that is absolutely OVAL, goes over the net extremely low, and lands deep to skidd and make the other player dig.
YES, I also have a regular "timid" slice with a more EasternBackhand grip. But since my brain only computes so much information, I mainly use that backhand volley grip.
Yes, I also have a Easternbackhand topspin drive.
Not quite pure continental, but twisted towards backhand.
A pure continental, ON VOLLEYS, would not favor either side.

dman72
02-06-2009, 09:04 AM
I am not trying to say pros dont ever use an Eastern forehand grip!!!

I am saying that the connection between favoring and EFH grip for a driving slice as compared to "change of pace" ball is not sitting right with me.


Oh, and I would have to say it's patently wrong, if not physically impossible. We agree there.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 09:12 AM
Hi BungalowBill....
I assume your volleys are one handed.

Yes, volleys are onehanded until someone rips one at me, then I block it with two. But yes, onehanded is fine to assume that.

I also assume your forehand volley is short punch stroke, similar to Feds.

Yes.

I again assume your backhand volley is a much longer underspin stroke, using more body turn and forward movement, similar to almost every top pro volleyer.

Yes, because of the nature of the backhand volley.

Well, that backhand volley grip is what I use for a defensive hard sliced ball that is absolutely OVAL, goes over the net extremely low, and lands deep to skidd and make the other player dig.

You are a crack up! What is with this OVAL stuff! You sound like your hitting like Nadal everyday. Do you wear the head band, the sleevless shirts and the longer tennis pants? You are too funny. That made me smile.

So, getting back to reality. :) Are you saying that you hit a driving slice with a Continental grip that favors an EBH grip? Because that contradicts what you said before or at the very least takes us in another direction.

And what does my volleying technique have to do with my grip and your post? I am still in a Continental and still favoring an Eastern backhand grip for the backhand side on both the slice and volleys. So are you saying you are in the same grip? Are you saying that the pros do it differently and I should consider changing this?

YES, I also have a regular "timid" slice with a more EasternBackhand grip. But since my brain only computes so much information, I mainly use that backhand volley grip.
Yes, I also have a Easternbackhand topspin drive.
Not quite pure continental, but twisted towards backhand.
A pure continental, ON VOLLEYS, would not favor either side.

I do not change the grip of my slice backhand. I change my technique or emphasis in my approach and swing for the ball. When, in my mind, I wave the "white flag" because I think my opponent is getting the better matchup and I want to float back a sliced ball that stalls on the court and forces a player to hit it back carefully to restart a point or as you said "change pace" of the rally, it is still the same grip.

I do not favor towards the EFH side for any of my slices or backhand volleys.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 09:17 AM
Gotta dink, dude !
When lots of top pros are stretched wide to the forehand, lots of them use their same SW grip and SLICE! I assume you've seen that.
When top pros start hitting topspin at each other, one of them, rather than just exchange tops all day, decides to CHANGE OF PACE by hitting extreme hard underspin low skidding balls.
Now some exchanges are purely topspin forever. I'll agree there. But we're talking slice backhands. Most top current pros DO NOT SLICE their normal backhands, so the slice is for CHANGE OF PACE, not normal execution.

junbumkim
02-06-2009, 09:47 AM
Gotta dink, dude !
When lots of top pros are stretched wide to the forehand, lots of them use their same SW grip and SLICE! I assume you've seen that.
When top pros start hitting topspin at each other, one of them, rather than just exchange tops all day, decides to CHANGE OF PACE by hitting extreme hard underspin low skidding balls.
Now some exchanges are purely topspin forever. I'll agree there. But we're talking slice backhands. Most top current pros DO NOT SLICE their normal backhands, so the slice is for CHANGE OF PACE, not normal execution.

I hate to be harsh, but your observations on stretched-forehand is inaccurate. I could go on line and find a bunch of different pictures of different players on this.

If they are so stretched outwide that they have to hit so-called squash forehand (slice forehand to get back into the point), they execute it with CONTINENTAL grip NOT with their regular forehand grip (sw or western or eastern forehnad).

Yes, a lot of professional players hit slice backhand for the change of pace, or to get back into the point, or for strategical reasons. A lot of players, their backhand doesn't hold up very well.

For slice backhand: some pros may use continetal grip with a flavor of eastern backhand, some may use eastern backhand grip for slice, and some might even use contiental grip with a bit of eastern forehand grip, others use continental grip.

However, I can gurantee you that you asked 100 pros which grip they used for slice backhand, at least 90 would say CONTINENTAL.

They (including Roger Fededer) are able to execute disgustingly nasty slice backhand than us because of their practice and ability NOT BECAUSE they use some version of a grip.

junbumkim
02-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Also, I really hate to be more harsh b/c I don't think you mean any harm,

But the fact that you strug for a bunch of professional players in 1950s or 60s, or 70s or stood RIGHT next to Steffi Graf or other players while they were practicing don't provide you any credentials.

So you should probably stop trying to use those narratives as your credentials.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 09:57 AM
OK, TRY it and come back.
Use your normal slice grip, and try for spin with a low skidd, barely clearing the net.
Now try my idea of a continental grip with a forehand flavor. Notice the ball goes slower, you can impart more pure underspin. Now hit it harder with a solid body positioning. Aim it 2' over the net. It goes all the way to the baseline, it skidds off to the side, and it's a tough ball to constantly hit against because of it's DIFFERENT behavior than even an eastern grip backhand slice !!
OR... don't try that shot, keep thinking the way you do, and ignore some alternative advice.
How can someone like RaulRameriz possibly know from whence he speakest :shock::shock:

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 10:05 AM
Gotta dink, dude !
When lots of top pros are stretched wide to the forehand, lots of them use their same SW grip and SLICE! I assume you've seen that.
When top pros start hitting topspin at each other, one of them, rather than just exchange tops all day, decides to CHANGE OF PACE by hitting extreme hard underspin low skidding balls.
Now some exchanges are purely topspin forever. I'll agree there. But we're talking slice backhands. Most top current pros DO NOT SLICE their normal backhands, so the slice is for CHANGE OF PACE, not normal execution.

If I am stretched out wide and in a circumstance where all technique flys outthe window, yes, I dont care what grip I am in, I just try to get th eball back to a place my opponent has to move too. If that means dinking it, then so be it.

Well, I would say many twohanded backhanders use the slice for change of pace or to stall a bit to move the ball for a better matchup.

I dont know if I can say that about onehanders since they tend to do more slicing for variety.

So, I guess some believe you are right about pros favoring the continental/eastern forehand for slicing the ball. However, some are not siding with you and I want you to show me why pros use a continental/favored EBH rip for soft slices vs.driving slices.

Are you still believing the last sentence in my response above?

LeeD
02-06-2009, 10:12 AM
I totally believe your last post.
NOT ALL pros would even consider my grip.
But the problem here is that we are mostly basing the opinion based on our own style of hitting.
Not me, back in 1978, I started adopting that aberation grip cont/forehand for a change of pace from my normal two hander on Rameriz's advice.
He used a normal eastern backhand slice grip. Then, when the change of pace is called for, or an approach, he'd slip it a few degrees towards forehand on this backhand shot.
I believe there is a limit to how much underspin you can apply with an Eastern backhand grip. You can apply more underspin with a grip more towards forehand, but exact grip is up to the player and his physiology.
At the 4.0 tournament level, I can still pass with that cont/forehand grip, but I'd better keep it low. Really strong slices, like really hard topped balls, are usually hard to volley accurately.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 10:14 AM
OK, TRY it and come back.
Use your normal slice grip, and try for spin with a low skidd, barely clearing the net.

LeeD, maybe you dont know how I play. I too learned in the 70's and late 60's.

I also played with a TAD Davis Imperial, a Wilson T-3000, and the Dunlop Teardrop racquets. I am a lefty that has a very good slice backhand. I like to drive the ball on both serves and groundstrokes. I can also finesse the ball (carve it if you will) to do stuff with the ball like cause to squirt sideways while staying low for variety and as you said "change of pace." My slice is very handy because I play a lot of doubles and it is a shot I can disguise very well as a ground stroke or a lob.

However, I have never hit my slice with a continential grip favoring the Eastern forehand.

Now try my idea of a continental grip with a forehand flavor. Notice the ball goes slower, you can impart more pure underspin. Now hit it harder with a solid body positioning. Aim it 2' over the net. It goes all the way to the baseline, it skidds off to the side, and it's a tough ball to constantly hit against because of it's DIFFERENT behavior than even an eastern grip backhand slice !!

But I can do this with my continental grip that flavors an eastern backhand grip! I am trying to determine how this grip you are talking about is linked to hitting harder slices then a person that favors and eastern backhand.

OR... don't try that shot, keep thinking the way you do, and ignore some alternative advice.
How can someone like RaulRameriz possibly know from whence he speakest :shock::shock:

I dont know, but Boris Becker hit some of his serves with an Eastern forehand grip, however you dont see me or a lot of players running out their following him - unless you are a beginner. :)

LeeD
02-06-2009, 10:20 AM
I was never advocating anyone SHOULD use my aberation slice backhand grip.
I was only posting an observation that SOME top players use that grip.
If it don't work for you, don't use it.
For me, it allows me to hit really hard, slow down the speed of the ball, add tons of slice almost like a topspin serve, and gives me time to center again.
If it also happens to give other players problems, all the better.
My normal eastern grip slice backhand gives no problems to better players, so I use it sparingly. I DID say I have a pretty consistent and strong topspin one handed eastern backhand drive shot.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 10:31 AM
I was never advocating anyone SHOULD use my aberation slice backhand grip.
I was only posting an observation that SOME top players use that grip.
If it don't work for you, don't use it.

Yeah LeeD, that is confusing. In post #2 which has been the basis of this entire debate, you said this"

One handed backhand SLICE....
Most of the top guys use a conti with an eastern forehand flavor, to create a heavily sliced ball that clears the net low, but goes deep to the baseline. The stroke is long and forceful, with full shoulder turn and footwork. Why I say this? Look at the actual contact point....like right where the front shoulder is.


That is confusing. Most, some...what is it?

For me, it allows me to hit really hard, slow down the speed of the ball, add tons of slice almost like a topspin serve, and gives me time to center again. If it also happens to give other players problems, all the better.
My normal eastern grip slice backhand gives no problems to better players, so I use it sparingly. I DID say I have a pretty consistent and strong topspin one handed eastern backhand drive shot.

Now you are talking...for you it does the things you mentioned above.

Actually I am going to try it because I want to see the wrist position I need to do it well. This will help me analyze photos better as well to determine what grip someone is in for a slice backhand.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 10:38 AM
Sorry if my first post sounds like I"m advocating that grip.
I meant it as an observation.
Possibly, for me, I was an excellent ranked pingpong player in my youth (like 12 years before starting tennis), so hitting backhands with the backside of my hand seems almost natural.
Give it a shot, I'll keep trying to hit a forcing high one handed sliced backhand off an eastern backhand grip.

Bungalo Bill
02-06-2009, 10:47 AM
Sorry if my first post sounds like I"m advocating that grip.
I meant it as an observation.
Possibly, for me, I was an excellent ranked pingpong player in my youth (like 12 years before starting tennis), so hitting backhands with the backside of my hand seems almost natural.
Give it a shot, I'll keep trying to hit a forcing high one handed sliced backhand off an eastern backhand grip.

No apoligies necessary. That one sentence struck me as odd.

Look LeeD, I know I come across like a pain in the rump, but I really do mean well. I also was a victim of poor tennis adice and bad coaching so I have empathy for players that read things here that might be taken wrong or really is wrong.

What I think is you were a very talented athletic person that grasped tennis prety well. You probably were able to do more things with the racquet then most people around you. Placing you in an Eastern forehand grip for your serve probably wouldnt have done anything to mess up your serve with the Continental grip. Things just happened with you.

A lot of people are not like you. :)

One of the most brilliant things Vic Braden did with us coaches that I wish other coaches did with their coaches was learn how to play tennis with our non-dominant hand. We had to serve, hit groundstrokes, etc... with our non-dominant hand. After a week or so doing that, I gained a deeper appreciation for what I say to a player, how they perceive it, how they practice, and what they take away.

That is what sparked my interest in how adults and children learn. It also emphasized the importance of good sound instruction that teaches the fundamentals while leaving the personal preferences or "things" to the player. We develped players through the fundamentals and let their personality and preferences come out from there.

I am not against a player developing their "finesse shots" or "shots they own." I simply stress the fundamentals over and over again. I try to remove the myths surrounding learning tennis. Tennis is like anything else in life. If you want to be good at it, you got to work hard at it.

LeeD
02-06-2009, 11:17 AM
Absolutely that off hand tennis stroking helps our understanding of strokes and strategy.
I'm southpaw like you...
But learned to play at least 3.0 tournament level playing one handed rightie.
My first serve is not all that bad, always one boucing to the backdrop. A real second topspin serve, but less pace than lefty. Pure cont grip.
BETTER forehands, SW grip. Better forehands, volley grip.
Much worse one handed backhands, but volley grip. Consistent but soft.
Excellent volleys, some say better than my left hand.
Softy overheads, as confusion in footwork sometimes comes into play.
And surprisingly, playing both sides can sometimes ruin some shots from your dominant side, like wide retrieves on the backhand (lefty), sometimes my footwork thinks I'm hitting rightie:confused::confused:

Ambivalent
02-08-2009, 09:08 PM
I use a semi-western for everything, including BH slice from the baseline, except of course serves and net play where I use continental. I tried using Continental on slices from farther back and I can't seem to get my arm to work as well that way ... not as much power. personal preference

How do you slice with a semiwestern ?

Djokovicfan4life
02-09-2009, 07:17 AM
Yes, you folks are right. From a players perspective we are splitting hairs. However, from a coaching perspective it is important to know.



I agree, However, I was responding to Ballinbob's post and not in terms of the entire thread. I plan on learning just about every technique available under the sun. But there are more efficiant ways of doing this, such as: learning proper weight transfer into the ball, how far to drop the racquet head below the ball before the swing to contact, improving flexibility and footwork, etc., rather than holding the racquet in several different ways and flailing wildly at the ball.

Matt

P.S. Got some footage of my footwork and first serve yesterday. Will post once I figure out this 21st century thing.

Fay
02-09-2009, 09:33 AM
How do you slice with a semiwestern ?

I do not recommend it ... I see the pros using Eastern BH, Continental, and even Eastern FH to slice.

How it happens is that I have my racquet up and am ready to hit a nice big looping top spin shot and all of the a sudden (because I don't have enough experience reading the bounce of the ball) I get a very flat ball the comes fast and low ... I only have time when I watch the ball bounce to slice it back. I hit the ball well out in front and in the same plane as the top spin but I cut down on the ball. I am not saying this is correct or recommended, it just happens. I can place the ball short and angled or deep to the baseline and it has gotten more pace with practice. My coach said my BH has gone from weak to pesky, meaning I can consistently get the BHs returned to my opponent's BH deep or angled but not yet enough pace to be called offensive.

I cannot explain to you how I do, it just happens. If I am at the net or have had *time* to switch to a continental grip, which I have used from the baseline as well, it is a more standard stroke. My only point being is that when people don't have enough time a lot of things can be pulled off. But understand that I am not saying that anyone should practice this way.

Djokovicfan4life
02-09-2009, 10:44 AM
I do not recommend it ... I see the pros using Eastern BH, Continental, and even Eastern FH to slice.

How it happens is that I have my racquet up and am ready to hit a nice big looping top spin shot and all of the a sudden (because I don't have enough experience reading the bounce of the ball) I get a very flat ball the comes fast and low ... I only have time when I watch the ball bounce to slice it back. I hit the ball well out in front and in the same plane as the top spin but I cut down on the ball. I am not saying this is correct or recommended, it just happens. I can place the ball short and angled or deep to the baseline and it has gotten more pace with practice. My coach said my BH has gone from weak to pesky, meaning I can consistently get the BHs returned to my opponent's BH deep or angled but not yet enough pace to be called offensive.

I cannot explain to you how I do, it just happens. If I am at the net or have had *time* to switch to a continental grip, which I have used from the baseline as well, it is a more standard stroke. My only point being is that when people don't have enough time a lot of things can be pulled off. But understand that I am not saying that anyone should practice this way.

Are you saying that you don't have the slice backhand technique down yet, Fay? Cause there's some great stuff about it on VTA, as you know.

Matt

Jay_The_Nomad
02-09-2009, 07:16 PM
When I was developing my slice, I used a grip that was almost a Full-western forehand grip to help me get more bite on the ball as my continental backhand slice often resulted in a slice that sat up on the court too much.

But now I prefer to use a continental because it helps me to slice lower bouncing balls

LeeD
02-10-2009, 08:57 AM
Jay, how about in between?
BungalowBill, did you try slicing with a continental twisted towards forehand side yet?

Djokovicfan4life
02-10-2009, 08:59 AM
Jay, how about in between?
BungalowBill, did you try slicing with a continental twisted towards forehand side yet?

LOL, why would he? So he can injure his wrist by using a slice with less drive on it?

LeeD
02-10-2009, 09:06 AM
The conti slice with forehand flavor, off the BACKHAND, is not used to attain drive or speed. It's a change of pace, reliable, low bouncing, high spinning shot that can be also employed as a backhand approach shot....low, depth easily controlled because it needs a long full stroke, hard backspin for skidd, and reliable.
When you want to drive your backhand, do not use this grip!
Depth is most important in approach shots, and topspin or side doesn't give reliable depth...only ball speed, which the opponent is already dialed into:shock::shock:
Forget IDEAL theory tennis, try some practical application.
When BungalowBill responded with... "When I hit a " I knew he wasn't thinking about real competitive tennis, but theoritical hitting the tennis ball.

tennisdad65
02-10-2009, 09:34 AM
LOL, why would he? So he can injure his wrist by using a slice with less drive on it?

hmm.. I doubt you would injure your wrist doing this.. I thought continental with Eastern Forehand flavor is similar to 'australian' grip which many of the old timers used for everything.. I have no problem slicing with this grip. It is more comfortable and stable for me than using cont + eastern backhand flavor.

It is just what you are used to and brought up with.. There is nothing wrong either way.

Djokovicfan4life
02-10-2009, 10:33 AM
hmm.. I doubt you would injure your wrist doing this.. I thought continental with Eastern Forehand flavor is similar to 'australian' grip which many of the old timers used for everything.. I have no problem slicing with this grip. It is more comfortable and stable for me than using cont + eastern backhand flavor.

It is just what you are used to and brought up with.. There is nothing wrong either way.

Well, personally I prefer a mild eastern grip for slices, as does BB. I don't know how you guys can hit with those grips without feeling it in the wrist.

Matt

Bungalo Bill
02-10-2009, 01:05 PM
The conti slice with forehand flavor, off the BACKHAND, is not used to attain drive or speed. It's a change of pace, reliable, low bouncing, high spinning shot that can be also employed as a backhand approach shot....low, depth easily controlled because it needs a long full stroke, hard backspin for skidd, and reliable.

It just sounds like the face is a bit more open to add more spin but not as much pace due to the more open face of the racquet.

Forget IDEAL theory tennis, try some practical application.
When BungalowBill responded with... "When I hit a " I knew he wasn't thinking about real competitive tennis, but theoritical hitting the tennis ball.

IDEAL tennis theory? Is that what we are talking about? Ideal? And where did you get I was theoretically implying hitting the tennis ball a certain way?

Didnt I say "WHEN I HIT"? That means I hit the ball. What is theoretical about that? Further, what do you mean I wasnt thinking about "real competitive tennis?" Huh?

LeeD
02-10-2009, 02:16 PM
BungalowBill, DJ for life, SystemAn.....
You guys are tennis coaches. You must teach the theoritical ideal strokes, so the most players can emulate and have some success in the game of tennis.
I, when referring to that conti slice with a forehand flavor, am talking about what SOME of the pros, and ME, use for both backhand approach and change of pace baseline rallies.
I do NOT want pace. I want added spin, just like the Fed and Roddick one handed SLICES. They get pace with their one and two handed topspin balls. The slice is to SLOW the ball down, make it skidd really low, bounce wierd, but with more controlled depth than a traditional eastern forehand.
See?
You guys teach the "ideal".
We play by what seems to work for us at our low level.

Bungalo Bill
02-10-2009, 02:50 PM
BungalowBill, DJ for life, SystemAn.....
You guys are tennis coaches. You must teach the theoritical ideal strokes, so the most players can emulate and have some success in the game of tennis.

Actually, I think theory in any subject has its place, there has to be practical application and instruction to help a player shape their swing in reality.

So, although I study theory, theory flies out the door when I can not practically help a student use it or apply it. So practical instruction is what I am after and to help a student with what is known to work.

If you are referring to my theoretical instruction as helping a player learn the fundamentals, that is okay, we just have a different definition of what theory means.

Webster defines theory as: "concerned with theories rather than their practical applications."

I, when referring to that conti slice with a forehand flavor, am talking about what SOME of the pros, and ME, use for both backhand approach and change of pace baseline rallies.

I do NOT want pace. I want added spin, just like the Fed and Roddick one handed SLICES. They get pace with their one and two handed topspin balls. The slice is to SLOW the ball down, make it skidd really low, bounce wierd, but with more controlled depth than a traditional eastern forehand.
See?
You guys teach the "ideal".
We play by what seems to work for us at our low level.

Yes, I do see but I would rather we say that I teach what is a common and well researched grip to hit a slice. I dont know if it is "ideal" since I am also not against a player altering their grip from here to make it work for them. I alter my grip as well.

LeeD
02-10-2009, 02:54 PM
Fair enough....
I WISH I had coaching from day one, but alas, what is, is.....

Bud
02-11-2009, 12:49 AM
I hate to be harsh, but your observations on stretched-forehand is inaccurate. I could go on line and find a bunch of different pictures of different players on this.

If they are so stretched outwide that they have to hit so-called squash forehand (slice forehand to get back into the point), they execute it with CONTINENTAL grip NOT with their regular forehand grip (sw or western or eastern forehnad).

Yes, a lot of professional players hit slice backhand for the change of pace, or to get back into the point, or for strategical reasons. A lot of players, their backhand doesn't hold up very well.

For slice backhand: some pros may use continetal grip with a flavor of eastern backhand, some may use eastern backhand grip for slice, and some might even use contiental grip with a bit of eastern forehand grip, others use continental grip.

However, I can gurantee you that you asked 100 pros which grip they used for slice backhand, at least 90 would say CONTINENTAL.

They (including Roger Fededer) are able to execute disgustingly nasty slice backhand than us because of their practice and ability NOT BECAUSE they use some version of a grip.

Agreed... the forehand slice/squash shot is definitely continental.

Bungalo Bill
02-11-2009, 07:16 AM
Fair enough....
I WISH I had coaching from day one, but alas, what is, is.....

Hi LeeD,

I tried your grip last night. Because it opens the face slightly, I was able to sort of do what you said. Never really tried to hit the ball that way because I can do the same thing by pulling my hand back more and alter the angle of the racquet face with the continental eastern bh flavor.

So I guess we are getting to the same place using different ways to get there. I dont know if I am in favor of it since it introduces another grip for the backhand and in particular the slice but since I dont see anything drastically wrong with it, I wouldnt object to someone wanting to learn it.

I find it more convenient to do a variety of things with the ball with one grip.

LeeD
02-11-2009, 09:16 AM
Thanks for trying it. I don't recommend it to other players.
I like to slow the pace of the ball while adding spin. Kinda like modern topspin tennis:):) but old style slice tennis:cry:
It comes basically from my volley game, where my forehand volley is a short punch, with the grip slightly biased towards forehand side of continental.
With the backhand volley, I HAVE to turn sideways more, I HAVE to stroke thru fuller, longer, and more forcefully, and I have to try to move in to give depth and penetration....compared to my forehand volley.
And I too don't want to employ TOO many grips, so my backhand is either a conti with forehand flavor slice or a pure flat with sidespin fast mover, with Eastern backhand traditional grip.
No slices with Eastern backhand. It's too easy for the opponent to figure out, as it's the most common slice grip!