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View Full Version : Calling out way before ball hits ground ....


Fay
02-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Now you all know how some balls with lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line ....

Now we have a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group that calls the balls 'long' before they hit the ground. My male partner and I today both were positive that two were definitely not out. My partner finally asked him to stop making calls before the ball had bounced.


I was serving and finally said sort of kidding "next time I'll take the point as you are not supposed to call 'out' before the ball lands"

He appears to be the sort of person if he made a mistake he would not take it back and just pretend it was still out. ugh!


What do you all do in a situation like that?

crystal_clear
02-06-2009, 07:31 PM
What about "next time I will take the point before I hit a winner?" :D

Some people might not know the rule. I didn't know before until I was told by someone on the court.

Fay
02-06-2009, 07:43 PM
What about "next time I will take the point before I hit a winner?" :D

.

OMGosh that is funny ! Thanks for the laugh :-D

LuckyR
02-06-2009, 08:23 PM
There are two different situations: calling to your partner to not hit a ball you think will land out and actually calling the ball out before it lands. Sounds like your player was doing the latter. This, of course is against the rules. inform him of same. The former is reasonable and very common.

JavierLW
02-06-2009, 09:47 PM
Now you all know how some balls with lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line ....

Now we have a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group that calls the balls 'long' before they hit the ground. My male partner and I today both were positive that two were definitely not out. My partner finally asked him to stop making calls before the ball had bounced.


I was serving and finally said sort of kidding "next time I'll take the point as you are not supposed to call 'out' before the ball lands"

He appears to be the sort of person if he made a mistake he would not take it back and just pretend it was still out. ugh!


What do you all do in a situation like that?

There is not actually any rule that says they lose the point if they call the ball too early. That's a common misconception. There doesnt even seem to be a rule that says that you shouldnt call it early.

Probably because tennis is supposed to be a honorable sport and because it's assumed you wouldnt call the ball out while it was still in the air, any more then you'd call it OUT if it happened to land a whole foot inside the court. In either event there isnt much you can do about it other than question your opponent and think less of them.

If they call it Out early and the ball still goes out, you still lose the point.

If they call the ball out early and the ball falls in, then it's no different then any other bad call.

You can confront them on it, point out that they did it, and hope they stop but that's about it. If it's doubles you can confront the partner, ask them point blank "Did you see it?", sometimes if they are embarressed enough they will give up the point. (if it really went in, not because it was called too early)

Court Valkyrie
02-06-2009, 10:37 PM
If you are 110% sure they are going in and he calls them out, just start calling his out regardless of how far in they are. If he questions you, tell him "we can play fairly, or we can call each others shots out all night" if he doesn't comply. I personally would walk off the court because tennis is supposed to be fun and fair, not unfair and frustrating.

raiden031
02-07-2009, 05:08 AM
Well I believe if you make an incorrect OUT call and then override ourself, your opponents get the point and so you can't keep playing it or play a let on it.

Same would apply to your situation:

If they call it OUT early and its out, they win the point.
If they call it OUT eary and its in, then they lose the point for making an incorrect call and don't have the option of playing the ball.

shell
02-07-2009, 06:45 AM
Now you all know how some balls with lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line ....

Now we have a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group that calls the balls 'long' before they hit the ground. My male partner and I today both were positive that two were definitely not out. My partner finally asked him to stop making calls before the ball had bounced.


I was serving and finally said sort of kidding "next time I'll take the point as you are not supposed to call 'out' before the ball lands"

He appears to be the sort of person if he made a mistake he would not take it back and just pretend it was still out. ugh!


What do you all do in a situation like that?

Fay, you really don't have many options as pointed out above. Personally, I would treat it like any other call that I disagreed with. First time, question the call by saying "Are you sure, because I thought you called it before it landed and I saw it in'. Then I would play on. If it happened again, I would argue a bit stronger.

But in the end, in non-tournament situations, you really don't have any options. Personally, I would not start taking points with calls on my side because I am not comfortable doing that. Cheating to balance cheating is still cheating.

I hit a fairly heavy topspin on my forehand and have run in to this before. But not intentional thank goodness. Usually a polite question on the call will suffice. If it continues, you are just playing a cheater and there is usually nothing to sway them.

raiden031
02-07-2009, 06:50 AM
But in the end, in non-tournament situations, you really don't have any options. Personally, I would not start taking points with calls on my side because I am not comfortable doing that. Cheating to balance cheating is still cheating.


Right if you are going to cheat to retaliate against a cheater, then what is the point in even playing the match at all? My philosophy is you first give them the beneift of the doubt, then you politely question their calls, and if they continue you warn them or get an official if applicable. Then if they don't curb the cheating the match is over right there. There is no point in playing if you can't have a fair chance to win because your opponent won't follow the rules.

JavierLW
02-07-2009, 06:54 AM
Well I believe if you make an incorrect OUT call and then override ourself, your opponents get the point and so you can't keep playing it or play a let on it.

Same would apply to your situation:

If they call it OUT early and its out, they win the point.
If they call it OUT eary and its in, then they lose the point for making an incorrect call and don't have the option of playing the ball.

That's not what the rules say:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes
it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the
proper Court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,”
the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return,
the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the
server is entitled to two serves.

I agree that could get a little annoying but them's the rules....

And again, it says nothing anywhere in the rules about what happens if the ball is called early.

raiden031
02-07-2009, 07:07 AM
That's not what the rules say:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes
it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the
proper Court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,”
the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return,
the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the
server is entitled to two serves.

I agree that could get a little annoying but them's the rules....

And again, it says nothing anywhere in the rules about what happens if the ball is called early.

hmmm that is a stupid rule. So what you do *after* the point is ruled dead has an effect on whether the point should be replayed or go to your opponent? So if you mistakenly call it out and still hit a good shot its a let, but if you mistakenly call it out and let it go you lose the point?

SteveI
02-07-2009, 07:08 AM
Now you all know how some balls with lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line ....

Now we have a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group that calls the balls 'long' before they hit the ground. My male partner and I today both were positive that two were definitely not out. My partner finally asked him to stop making calls before the ball had bounced.


I was serving and finally said sort of kidding "next time I'll take the point as you are not supposed to call 'out' before the ball lands"

He appears to be the sort of person if he made a mistake he would not take it back and just pretend it was still out. ugh!



What do you all do in a situation like that?

Hi Fay,

I also play with some players that are not used to balls with "lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line" They should at least wait until the ball hits the court. Again.. not really a rule.. just good old common sense.

On the other hand, you are playing in a "recreational mixed doubles match". Not USTA.. not a tourney...just for fun. I try not to get too worried about that sort of stuff in a fun match. Not everyone has the same goals when playing tennis. If you are looking for more serious "fun" then maybe that group is not for you. You really have to match your "goals" to the group or groups that you play in.. otherwise you will be disappointed.

I also play in a similair group.. and understand how different players in that group call lines.. score etc. Just a fact of life.. some folks call the line close.. never giving you a close call.. while others are very generous. Some folks foot-fault at times.. etc.

The bottom line for me in a recreational setting, is that I am there to have fun.. get a work out.. and hit as many balls as I can. I experiment and go for shots that are low percentage and at times play balls that are out.. but close. Heck.. I am there to hit balls. All about what "you" expect or desire out of "your" tennis hours.

To answer your question.. I would just talk to the player on one of change overs. :-)


Have a good one,
Steve

JavierLW
02-07-2009, 07:21 AM
hmmm that is a stupid rule. So what you do *after* the point is ruled dead has an effect on whether the point should be replayed or go to your opponent? So if you mistakenly call it out and still hit a good shot its a let, but if you mistakenly call it out and let it go you lose the point?

Yep, that's what it means.

Although Im not sure there is anything magical about saying "out", its probably a let because you distracted your opponents and the ball isnt really out unless it's out.

I agree that if you read all the rules on calling the ball out, they are not very consistant.

raiden031
02-07-2009, 07:24 AM
Yep, that's what it means.

Although Im not sure there is anything magical about saying "out", its probably a let because you distracted your opponents and the ball isnt really out unless it's out.

I agree that if you read all the rules on calling the ball out, they are not very consistant.

right, what seems logical to me would be if you call out and distract your opponent and you are wrong, then you forfeited the point, which should be incentive to be more careful about your calls.

But the actual rule would make it to your benefit to return every out ball (as well as out serves) as if the point is still alive so that you can overrule yourself for a let when needed.

JavierLW
02-07-2009, 08:46 AM
right, what seems logical to me would be if you call out and distract your opponent and you are wrong, then you forfeited the point, which should be incentive to be more careful about your calls.

But the actual rule would make it to your benefit to return every out ball (as well as out serves) as if the point is still alive so that you can overrule yourself for a let when needed.

Maybe you wrote that backwards. Do you mean it's your benefit to call everything out and overrule when needed?

If you play every out ball as if it was in even after calling it out, you dont gain anything by over-rulling yourself. (because if you dont over-rule yourself you win the point)

I think their thinking was that you (as the one that hit the ball) didnt do anything to win the point, had your opponent not mistakeningly called the ball out, the point would of continued and whoever won the point would of been up in the air.

Taking the point away would be a punishment for making a bad call, and the rules usually dont have that sort of thing in them (at least not when there isnt an official) because the game is supposed to be about sportsmanship, etc...

I agree it does look goofy though sometimes when it happens. Especially when you see someone make a bunch of bad calls in a row and "whoops", they returned it in play, DO OVER!!!!

It's like any other time you suspect someone is cheating though (the rules are for people who dont cheat), all you can do is try to make them look foolish, and think less of them. (and dont play them ever again if you are lucky enough to have that choice)

blakesq
02-07-2009, 10:04 AM
If the ball appeared clearly in, I would ask the "guy's" partner "how did you see it", if they disagree, the ball is in.


Now you all know how some balls with lots of top spin will drop down and catch the line ....

Now we have a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group that calls the balls 'long' before they hit the ground. My male partner and I today both were positive that two were definitely not out. My partner finally asked him to stop making calls before the ball had bounced.


I was serving and finally said sort of kidding "next time I'll take the point as you are not supposed to call 'out' before the ball lands"

He appears to be the sort of person if he made a mistake he would not take it back and just pretend it was still out. ugh!


What do you all do in a situation like that?

Fay
02-07-2009, 12:33 PM
But in the end, in non-tournament situations, you really don't have any options. Personally, I would not start taking points with calls on my side because I am not comfortable doing that. Cheating to balance cheating is still cheating.

I hit a fairly heavy topspin on my forehand and have run in to this before. But not intentional thank goodness. Usually a polite question on the call will suffice. If it continues, you are just playing a cheater and there is usually nothing to sway them.


I too make it a point to play with a lot of topspin on ground strokes with the idea it is safer, and also does lull opponents sometimes into thinking it was going out and have it drop in. Most of the people I play just laugh and say, 'Oh my, I was sure it was going out and it dropped just in... good one!"

This is the *same* man who has hit me in the face a few times at the net. A tall, slender, athletic man should not be that insecure and desperate, but apparently he is. Apparently he doesn't play much in tournaments as people would start complaining about him.

The scores are not recorded and it is supposed to be just for fun. But as you all know having someone like this across the net is not always much fun. I'll have to remind myself the next time I play across from him to totally ignore him. He might be just trying to get in people's heads.

hotseat
02-08-2009, 08:58 AM
i'd like to suggest an alternative, and possibly the more mature thing to do. ignore his couple of bad calls, adjust your strokes to be that much safer. a couple bad calls won't effect the outcome of the match unless you let it get to your head.

also, as you said, it's just a match that's for practice/fun. in actuality, with the right approach to playing against this guy, you're getting AMAZING practice. practice dealing with cheaters when it doesn't count for anything so that you know how to handle things when you play one in a tournament or league match.

it's all about perception, and in this situation, it seems slightly altering yours could help out a lot :)


cheers

Fay
02-08-2009, 11:05 AM
i'd like to suggest an alternative, and possibly the more mature thing to do. ignore his couple of bad calls, adjust your strokes to be that much safer. ..... you're getting AMAZING practice. practice dealing with cheaters when it doesn't count for anything so that you know how to handle things when you play one in a tournament or league match.

it's all about perception, and in this situation, it seems slightly altering yours could help out a lot :)


cheers

that is a good point ... I am too easily distracted and should stay "within myself" and ignore all of that.

some time when I cannot keep my mouth, I'll just jokingly call for The HawkEye ;-)

jsuwan
02-08-2009, 11:54 AM
That's not what the rules say:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes
it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the
proper Court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,”
the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return,
the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the
server is entitled to two serves.

I agree that could get a little annoying but them's the rules....

And again, it says nothing anywhere in the rules about what happens if the ball is called early.


According to all the tournament I played. If you call the good ball out, the point will go to your opponent. No replay point even your partner or yourself can return the ball. I'm talking about the tournament rule.... not friendly practice.
Yes, Just only replay on Professional level if the lineman call out but the ball was in...

JavierLW
02-08-2009, 12:13 PM
According to all the tournament I played. If you call the good ball out, the point will go to your opponent. No replay point even your partner or yourself can return the ball. I'm talking about the tournament rule.... not friendly practice.
Yes, Just only replay on Professional level if the lineman call out but the ball was in...

That's not a "tournament" rule. If your opponents claimed that, then you have been had.

If it is a tournament rule then go onto www.usta.com find the rules and look for it, dont just take someone's word for it because you heard it from another player who heard it from a friend who heard it from a bunch of other people who didnt bother to actually find out what the rule is.

In fact the section that I got this rule from is from "The Code" which the whole point of it is how to to deal with issues when there is no official and you have to make line calls yourself.

Crusher10s
02-08-2009, 12:16 PM
The "Out Calls Corrected" rule some of you are quoting ad nauseum is referring to a bad SERVICE call which is NOT the same as a bad LINE call once the point has begun.


It's very simple....a player CANNOT make an out call BEFORE the ball has landed OUTSIDE of the court....period.....if an opponent continues violating the most basic of the rules of the game, then refuse to continue the match and walk away.

moonbat
02-08-2009, 02:18 PM
That's not a "tournament" rule. If your opponents claimed that, then you have been had.

If it is a tournament rule then go onto www.usta.com find the rules and look for it, dont just take someone's word for it because you heard it from another player who heard it from a friend who heard it from a bunch of other people who didnt bother to actually find out what the rule is.

In fact the section that I got this rule from is from "The Code" which the whole point of it is how to to deal with issues when there is no official and you have to make line calls yourself.

I agree. This is from "The Final Word" rule Q & A on the USTA website:

This is from The Code:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the proper court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,” the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return, the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the server is entitled to two serves.

JavierLW
02-08-2009, 05:23 PM
The "Out Calls Corrected" rule some of you are quoting ad nauseum is referring to a bad SERVICE call which is NOT the same as a bad LINE call once the point has begun.


It's very simple....a player CANNOT make an out call BEFORE the ball has landed OUTSIDE of the court....period.....if an opponent continues violating the most basic of the rules of the game, then refuse to continue the match and walk away.

See moonbat's response and mine which is an actual quote from "The Code".

It has nothing to do with a serve, it's refering to anytime you accidently call a ball out.

If you want to disprove us, you have to read the actual rules on usta.com and find something to support your argument.

You can walk away from the match all you want, however you as a Tennis Professional should know that players will encounter opponents who make poor calls (early or otherwise). If they had to walk away everytime you would be defaulting a lot of matches.

The best course of action is to just point it out, and outside of that just dont let it get to you because there is nothing you can do if there is not an official there.

If it's a "for fun" match, then scratch that person off your list of people to play, but if it's an official match unfortuanlly you just have to deal with it.

If I find someone who Im playing who is making up their own rules based on their own version of ad nauseum and they dont have a rulebook with them, then perhaps I'll walk off the court. (or I'll just make sure to bring one with me and make them prove it)

And it's not that simple. A player CAN call a ball out before it lands, there is nothing stopping them from doing so, and if it goes out, the ball is still out. You dont earn a free point out of it. (but it's poor practice to do so)

Crusher10s
02-08-2009, 06:15 PM
I recognize and empathize with your obvious inability to comprehend 80% of what you read on this forum Javier.....but really....can you not understand that one of the fundamental rules of tennis (pssst look up ITF Rules of Tennis) state that calls cannot be made until the ball lands either in or out of the court.


My post was this: tell the yahoo who keeps making calls before the ball has even landed that they cannot make calls before the ball has landed....period....simple....and if they cannot grasp that simple concept....then walk away...because if they cannot get that....then how in the hell are they ever gonna get a more complex concept....you know Javier....like something you can't even seem to grasp......like what to do when you make a bad call on an opponent's serve.

Crusher10s
02-08-2009, 06:19 PM
I agree. This is from "The Final Word" rule Q & A on the USTA website:

This is from The Code:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the proper court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,” the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return, the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the server is entitled to two serves.



What part of "returned the ball", "failed to make the return", "if the mistake was made on the SECOND SERVE, the SERVER is entitled to two SERVES" don't you understand Javier??????????

Don't all those references to returns and serves scream "this is what to do when you call an opponent's serve wrong"?????

moonbat
02-08-2009, 09:14 PM
What part of "returned the ball", "failed to make the return", "if the mistake was made on the SECOND SERVE, the SERVER is entitled to two SERVES" don't you understand Javier??????????

Don't all those references to returns and serves scream "this is what to do when you call an opponent's serve wrong"?????

Sorry, Crush, I should have posted a different part of the USTA Q & A to explain it better. The gist is that the USTA wants people to be honest, so they will give a let if the ball was returned strongly at the time the ball was called out. They want a partner to overrule a bad call. If the team loses the point automatically, the partner keeps his mouth shut. Here's a better description for both during serves and during a point.

Serving: I was playing a match with no-ad scoring. At a very important 3 all point, my opponent called my first serve out. After, he corrected the call and called the serve in. What should have been done in this situation? We played 2 and I ended up losing the point. Should the point have been mine because of the missed call by my opponent?

KAUFMAN: If the receiver returns the ball in play, then replay the entire point. First serve. We want to encourage players to correct erroneous calls. (Note: If the return was a weak sitter, the receiver should concede the point.) If the receiver did not return the ball in play, it is the server’s point.

During a point: When partners disagree on a call the benefit of doubt must go to the opponents. If an out call was made (not communication) then play has stopped.
Again, if the return was a weak return or the ball did not go into the opposing court, the returning team loses the point. If the return is strong and the best the opponents could have done was to keep the ball in play, then a let should be played.

Does it make sense now?

crystal_clear
02-08-2009, 09:33 PM
A few older ladies in my ladies league make bad calls. I guess making bad calls is a sign of aging.

Crusher10s
02-09-2009, 02:32 AM
This is how I was taught back in the early 70's on what to do when you and/or your partner disagree on a line call:

The opponent gets the benefit of the doubt. So me and Suzi Q are playing dubs and she calls a ball out and I saw it as in.....where I come from (Virginia originally), that would mean we concede the point to our opponent. What is the difference between me and Suzi seeing it differently than myself correcting my incorrect line call? Furthermore, if we're gonna correct an out call to good then why in God's name wouldn't we concede the point to our opponent???? You are on your honor to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt in tennis. Furthermore, what if I'm playing singles and decide to call a good ball out, then correct my call to good but decide to replay the point, then am I not getting a second chance to win a point that I actually lost to begin with?

Why would you have to concede the point in dubs when you and your partner disagree yet not have to automatically concede if you disagree with yourself?

It's simple logic.

Getting to replay points because a player makes inaccurate calls sets a precedent that I was taught is not acceptable in a game that was predicated on honor and respect to begin with.

Crusher10s
02-09-2009, 02:52 AM
Alrighty....I just got finished looking up what Jeff Cooper had to say about The Code in About.com.

According to him (and I trust his judgement), I am wrong....no....make that WRONG (is that loud enough for you guys?) and if you correct an incorrect line call during a point you do the exact same thing you do if it happened during the serve.

Seems totally illogical to me and goes against what all of my tennis coaches taught me since I started playing back in the early 70's.

So if you make a bad line call, correct yourself and as long as your return of the ball was in the proper court, voila'....you can replay the point....even if you just ripped off your opponent by not only making a bad line call but refusing to give them the benefit of the doubt and conceding the point.


Hooray.....we've managed to completely contradict ourselves and the entire spirit of the game.

Nellie
02-09-2009, 06:14 AM
In a tournement, I had a point given to me (likely based on hindrance) because the oppponent continued to call the ball out before it bounced, even after a warning, and even though my ball was out. Personally, I think I had a screwy referee.

blakesq
02-09-2009, 08:57 AM
In my opinion, playing according to the rules of tennis, is playing in keeping with the spirit of the game. Maybe you are thinking of playing in keeping with the spirit of Crusher10's version of Tennis? :)


Alrighty....I just got finished looking up what Jeff Cooper had to say about The Code in About.com.

According to him (and I trust his judgement), I am wrong....no....make that WRONG (is that loud enough for you guys?) and if you correct an incorrect line call during a point you do the exact same thing you do if it happened during the serve.

Seems totally illogical to me and goes against what all of my tennis coaches taught me since I started playing back in the early 70's.

So if you make a bad line call, correct yourself and as long as your return of the ball was in the proper court, voila'....you can replay the point....even if you just ripped off your opponent by not only making a bad line call but refusing to give them the benefit of the doubt and conceding the point.


Hooray.....we've managed to completely contradict ourselves and the entire spirit of the game.

JavierLW
02-09-2009, 09:30 AM
Alrighty....I just got finished looking up what Jeff Cooper had to say about The Code in About.com.

According to him (and I trust his judgement), I am wrong....no....make that WRONG (is that loud enough for you guys?) and if you correct an incorrect line call during a point you do the exact same thing you do if it happened during the serve.

Seems totally illogical to me and goes against what all of my tennis coaches taught me since I started playing back in the early 70's.

So if you make a bad line call, correct yourself and as long as your return of the ball was in the proper court, voila'....you can replay the point....even if you just ripped off your opponent by not only making a bad line call but refusing to give them the benefit of the doubt and conceding the point.


Hooray.....we've managed to completely contradict ourselves and the entire spirit of the game.

Not really because the rule encourages people to play fair and correct themselves if they make a mistake.

Not everyone who makes a bad linecall is out and out cheating (otherwise they wouldnt correct themselves).

Sometimes people make mistakes. Many times they are even caused by calling balls a bit too early. It's not ideal that they do so, but sometimes it's just a bad habit and if they are willing to correct themselves they are admiting that.

And actually as far as the contridiction about partners disagreeing about a call and Code #12, see this:

14. Partners’ disagreement on calls. If one partner calls the ball out and the
other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good. It is more important to give
your opponents the benefit of the doubt than to avoid possibly hurting your
partner’s feelings. The tactful way to achieve the desired result is to tell your partner
quietly of the mistake and then let your partner concede the point. If a call is changed
from out to good, the principles of Code §12 apply.

So it's the same thing, you correct the call in the same manner, there is not any contridiction.

Im sorry to keep at this one, but this happens a lot when people quote rules based on what they heard from someone else, or "what they were taught many many years ago". The rules cant have changed that much in all these years and like you said, "The Code" is very old.

Whether it's as much of a big deal as you want to make it is debatable.

The point is you hit the ball, your opponent was able to return it but because they incorrectly made an out call the point could not continue. You cant claim you were robbed of anything because had they not called it out the point would of still been in play and you would of still had to play it out.

(and all of this is under the idea that nobody is blatantly cheating and it's an honest mistake, if they are cheating trust me, they wont have any reason to overrule their own call.....)

moonbat
02-09-2009, 12:12 PM
Alrighty....I just got finished looking up what Jeff Cooper had to say about The Code in About.com.

According to him (and I trust his judgement), I am wrong....no....make that WRONG (is that loud enough for you guys?) and if you correct an incorrect line call during a point you do the exact same thing you do if it happened during the serve.

Seems totally illogical to me and goes against what all of my tennis coaches taught me since I started playing back in the early 70's.

So if you make a bad line call, correct yourself and as long as your return of the ball was in the proper court, voila'....you can replay the point....even if you just ripped off your opponent by not only making a bad line call but refusing to give them the benefit of the doubt and conceding the point.


Hooray.....we've managed to completely contradict ourselves and the entire spirit of the game.

Crush, do you know if the rule was changed recently? I, too, thought one loses the point if there's an overrule, but I perused the Q and A section awhile back and found the let exception, as long as the ball was kept in play. I'm interested in your perspective: do you think more people are willing to cheat nowadays, and the USTA wanted to make it easier for partners to tell the truth? I've been told at the club: "Don't dare overrule her, she'll have a cow," about certain players, and at first I was a bit scared of incurring anyone's wrath. But my regular partner and I overrule each other with no problems. I find most of the overrules come when the deuce partner calls an ad court sideline ball and vice versa, and when the net person calls a serve down the T wide. We always defer to the partner who had the best sightline to the ball. Most of the time, the ball was not returned, so the opponents get the point anyway. I also wonder about the pros, and what their code is when a linesman makes a bad call. Even with the challenge system, I've seen Djokovic concede a good serve rather than keep his mouth shut and wait for the challenge, but I watched Gonzalez refuse to admit he tipped the ball, and Capriati remain silent while Serena was bombarded with bad calls and the mother-of-all-umpire eff-ups at the US Open. I think both of them should have spoken up at the time, too.

Crusher10s
02-09-2009, 03:08 PM
Well let's see here: There's the ITF Rules of Tennis, USTA Rules of Tennis, The Code and A Friend at Court.

Here where I live, there's a huge ladies day league that is governed first by the USTA Rules of Tennis, the The Code, then A Friend at Court and then finally the GPLTL body of rules that supercede any of the previous ones. For example, Flagrant Foot Faults can be called in a USTA match, however, here where I live, on the ladies day league, Flagrant Foot Faults are not allowed to be called....because the day league is a solely recreational league and the league founders felt that any benefit gained by being able to call Flagrant Foot Faults was trumped by the atmosphere of contempt created by the act of taking a point by calling FFFs.

I played high school and then only played singles.....anytime I made an incorrect line call I was instructed by my h.s. coach to stop play, apologize and immediately award the point to my opponent. I never had problems in my matches with bad line calls because it gets old real fast having to apologize and award the point to your opponent. Maybe that's why I was taught that way.

College was very similar for me with the biggest change being in the way we kept score. We never played tiebreakers back then, always had to win by a 2 game margin. Made for some long matches from time to time. I also played singles in college so again I knew that I was expected to make accurate line calls or immediately concede the point.


Truth be told, after college I did not play for over 20 years and I mean did NOT play, did NOT watch tennis, did NOT care about tennis, did NOT keep my racquets, nothing. I was so burned out after graduating from college (the pressure on student athletes on scholarship was and is unbelievable) that I disposed of everything I owned tennis and never looked back.

I guess it's quite plausible that the USTA has interpreted The Code differently in the last 20 some years than it did in the late 70's but frankly I'm not certain.

I'm guessing my brash and competitive nature coupled with what I thought were the facts (as I knew them over 20 years ago), gave me that "know it all" mindset.

But wrong is wrong and I am woman enough to admit when I'm wrong and flexible enough to adapt my current mindset with the prevailing attitude and culture in most given subjects, tennis included.

Now excuse me, I have a giant plate of crow that's awaiting my attention. LOL

JavierLW
02-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Well let's see here: There's the ITF Rules of Tennis, USTA Rules of Tennis, The Code and A Friend at Court.

Here where I live, there's a huge ladies day league that is governed first by the USTA Rules of Tennis, the The Code, then A Friend at Court and then finally the GPLTL body of rules that supercede any of the previous ones. For example, Flagrant Foot Faults can be called in a USTA match, however, here where I live, on the ladies day league, Flagrant Foot Faults are not allowed to be called....because the day league is a solely recreational league and the league founders felt that any benefit gained by being able to call Flagrant Foot Faults was trumped by the atmosphere of contempt created by the act of taking a point by calling FFFs.

I played high school and then only played singles.....anytime I made an incorrect line call I was instructed by my h.s. coach to stop play, apologize and immediately award the point to my opponent. I never had problems in my matches with bad line calls because it gets old real fast having to apologize and award the point to your opponent. Maybe that's why I was taught that way.

College was very similar for me with the biggest change being in the way we kept score. We never played tiebreakers back then, always had to win by a 2 game margin. Made for some long matches from time to time. I also played singles in college so again I knew that I was expected to make accurate line calls or immediately concede the point.


Truth be told, after college I did not play for over 20 years and I mean did NOT play, did NOT watch tennis, did NOT care about tennis, did NOT keep my racquets, nothing. I was so burned out after graduating from college (the pressure on student athletes on scholarship was and is unbelievable) that I disposed of everything I owned tennis and never looked back.

I guess it's quite plausible that the USTA has interpreted The Code differently in the last 20 some years than it did in the late 70's but frankly I'm not certain.

I'm guessing my brash and competitive nature coupled with what I thought were the facts (as I knew them over 20 years ago), gave me that "know it all" mindset.

But wrong is wrong and I am woman enough to admit when I'm wrong and flexible enough to adapt my current mindset with the prevailing attitude and culture in most given subjects, tennis notwithstanding.

Now excuse me, I have a giant plate of crow that's awaiting my attention. LOL

Ha. Dont worry about it. Im sure we'll all try to be nice if you are. :-)

Im sorry if I was rude to you about it.

jsuwan
02-09-2009, 08:19 PM
Ha. Dont worry about it. Im sure we'll all try to be nice if you are. :-)

Im sorry if I was rude to you about it.

I was wrong the whole time also then... Thank for let me know!!!

I just want to ask you since you are the king of Rules, anyone can help me also....

I was at the tournament. It was a double match. the server serve the call caught the line but the receiver partner call out ( the receiver make a return though). it happened that the USTA officer was there, he over rule the call. the USTA officer said the point go to the server side... In this case that's mean that USTA officer was wrong then. Is it correct???

Please let me know. I'm so confuse with the USTA rules!!!!

Any can help me with that will be great!!! SO I don't want to make any mistake or bad sportmanship in the court!!

moonbat
02-10-2009, 01:30 AM
Now excuse me, I have a giant plate of crow that's awaiting my attention. LOL

Heh...I recommend a nice bearnaise, it cuts the gaminess. ;)

bleach
02-10-2009, 08:29 AM
I try to never make a out call until I see the ball hit out, but there are times when I will make a hand jester or maybe even a vocal (habit from doubles) indicating ball going out. When I do this, there is no question the ball is going out. I was playing in a tournament (singles) and I did this. I was running the baseline chasing a ball, when the ball crossed the baseline (about 3 feet off the ground) I made a "out" noise, followed by an "out call" when the ball hit. My opponent (who was a real jerk) ended up coming across the net to yell at me for calling the ball early. Yes, I did call the ball early (mistake from doubles habits), but my call did not effect his ball. Had his ball actually been in (and he was not questioning it, it hit the backstop) I would have given him the point (I was not close to hitting the ball).

My point is: I don't understand why people get upset over early calls, your ball is either in or out. If the proper call was made, early or not, what's the problem. If the wrong call was made, it's not that it was an early call, but a bad /wrong call!

JavierLW
02-10-2009, 08:38 AM
I try to never make a out call until I see the ball hit out, but there are times when I will make a hand jester or maybe even a vocal (habit from doubles) indicating ball going out. When I do this, there is no question the ball is going out. I was playing in a tournament (singles) and I did this. I was running the baseline chasing a ball, when the ball crossed the baseline (about 3 feet off the ground) I made a "out" noise, followed by an "out call" when the ball hit. My opponent (who was a real jerk) ended up coming across the net to yell at me for calling the ball early. Yes, I did call the ball early (mistake from doubles habits), but my call did not effect his ball. Had his ball actually been in (and he was not questioning it, it hit the backstop) I would have given him the point (I was not close to hitting the ball).

My point is: I don't understand why people get upset over early calls, your ball is either in or out. If the proper call was made, early or not, what's the problem. If the wrong call was made, it's not that it was an early call, but a bad /wrong call!

I think people get REALLY upset when it's like the OP's situation where early calls lead to BAD CALLS. (usually because you are hitting with a lot of topspin)

You might be good enough to know for certain that the ball is traveling 3 feet out, but some people who tend to make "wishful out call syndrom", apparently do not.

Especially when it's a player who normally isnt used to seeing excessive topspin shots.

I agree with you, if it's obviously going out (like it's already way past the baseline and it's heading for the back fence), then it's not worth getting nitty about.

But when it's someone who's constantly calling all of your shots out before they dive in at the last second, then that's cause for complaint. And even if you correct it if it goes in, it makes you look bad.

Like most things we argue about on here though, you should have enough control over yourself to refrain from doing that. It's a bad habit and I dont see how anyone can make the arguement that they should be able to do it other than that they are lazy or cant change their bad habits.

(that being said, I admit that there are times when I slip and start calling balls early but Im aware that I do it and I try to stop myself, especially when it leads to making some embarressing incorrect calls)

kylebarendrick
02-10-2009, 09:09 AM
It IS hard not to go ahead and make the out call when standing at the baseline while a bail sails over your head. I try to wait until the ball actually hits something, but sometimes I slip up - although with a ball that far out I usually just use a hand signal so I don't look like I'm mocking their shot. I would have a hard time, though, with someone that got really upset because I didn't wait for their ball to re-enter earth orbit before making the call.

beernutz
02-10-2009, 10:27 AM
A few older ladies in my ladies league make bad calls. I guess making bad calls is a sign of aging.

A few young posters on the TW forums make bad generalizations. I guess making bad generalizations about people is a sign of immaturity.

Bretto
02-10-2009, 10:30 AM
A few young posters on the TW forums make bad generalizations. I guess making bad generalizations about people is a sign of immaturity.

Everyone is guilty of making "bad" generalisations but if they are actually offensive, it's just a sign of ignorance.

Spokewench
02-10-2009, 11:49 AM
The other day, I was playing in a club league event (ladies) against a person who often times is my partner in dubs on my adult team. (She is a very chatty lady and sometimes makes inappropriate, what I would call, hindrance conversation.) She is quite unaware of it because she loves to talk and loves to have fun at playing tennis. I think she believes that women appreciate this behavior because they are social tennis players. Sometimes when we are playing USTA League games, she needs to be reminded to not be so chatty!

Anway, I was playing against her and she called one of my balls out way before it hit; albeit, it was out, but I called out to her that she cannot call balls out before they hit the ground. My partner (who I had never played with before) thought I was crazy for pointing this out since my ball was well out. Of course, my partner did not know that I was really trying to advise my chatty partner that this was inadvisable and that I did not want this to become a habit when we played more competitive games.

It is the same thing with my husband, who has the habit of, when we are playing singles against each other, if he is sure the ball is going long, he catches it in his hand! Now, that gets my goat and I have repeatedly told him (since afterall he is my husband and he is really trying to beat me!) that he should not make a habit of this cause he will inadvertantly do it in a mixed doubles usta event and they will not be too thrilled with him!

spoke

beernutz
02-10-2009, 01:13 PM
Everyone is guilty of making "bad" generalisations but if they are actually offensive, it's just a sign of ignorance.

Did you read the post I was responding to? I guess from now on I need to add a disclaimer to my posts.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2008/10/15/sarcasm_1.jpg

crystal_clear
02-10-2009, 01:29 PM
A few young posters on the TW forums make bad generalizations. I guess making bad generalizations about people is a sign of immaturity.

Haha... Sorry, I didn't mean to offend the old ladies. Those bad call ladies have similar characteristic: wanting to win badly and a poor vision. That is my way to forgive those bad call ladies on court. Of course not all old ladies make bad calls. Only those bad call ladies showed the sign of aging on court.

Crusher10s
02-10-2009, 01:59 PM
I guess they let just anybody on a freakin' tennis forum.

Rickson
02-10-2009, 06:17 PM
When the ball hits the line, take the point no matter what he said 2 seconds earlier.

moonbat
02-10-2009, 09:44 PM
The other day, I was playing in a club league event (ladies) against a person who often times is my partner in dubs on my adult team. (She is a very chatty lady and sometimes makes inappropriate, what I would call, hindrance conversation.) She is quite unaware of it because she loves to talk and loves to have fun at playing tennis. I think she believes that women appreciate this behavior because they are social tennis players. Sometimes when we are playing USTA League games, she needs to be reminded to not be so chatty!

Anway, I was playing against her and she called one of my balls out way before it hit; albeit, it was out, but I called out to her that she cannot call balls out before they hit the ground. My partner (who I had never played with before) thought I was crazy for pointing this out since my ball was well out. Of course, my partner did not know that I was really trying to advise my chatty partner that this was inadvisable and that I did not want this to become a habit when we played more competitive games.

It is the same thing with my husband, who has the habit of, when we are playing singles against each other, if he is sure the ball is going long, he catches it in his hand! Now, that gets my goat and I have repeatedly told him (since afterall he is my husband and he is really trying to beat me!) that he should not make a habit of this cause he will inadvertantly do it in a mixed doubles usta event and they will not be too thrilled with him!

spoke

His opponents would be thrilled.

jefferson
02-11-2009, 04:21 AM
I come across this a lot. It truly is annoying. I typically respond with the old, "That was closer than you thought, huh?" or "Maybe you could let it bounce first, then make the call."

But the best remedy is when the ball actually lands in and they are the ones like damn I thought that was going out, sorry. It teaches them to set up on the ball just in case. No one that I know likes to lose points that they were still in because they "thought" it was going out and didnt try.

Fay
03-30-2012, 01:13 PM
That's not what the rules say:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes
it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the
proper Court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,”
the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return,
the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was made on the second serve, the
server is entitled to two serves.

I agree that could get a little annoying but them's the rules....

And again, it says nothing anywhere in the rules about what happens if the ball is called early.

Just happened to see this years later, LOL

What has happened in tournaments and leagues that I play, 95% of the people are fair and if they realize they made a bad call they just say "never mind it WAS in, your point."

thank goodness !

OrangePower
03-30-2012, 02:08 PM
Wow, talk about reviving an old thread!

As is turns out, the rule has changed from what it was then. The rule quoted above was true at the time - that if a call is reversed from out to in then a let is played, as long as the ball was returned and not a weak sitter. The rule has since been changed so that reversing a call from out to in results in loss of that point regardless of whether the ball was returned or not - no let is played.

jk175d
03-30-2012, 03:21 PM
the best response I've heard for when someone catches a ball that is clearly going to be out is "too bad you didn't let that bounce, it might have been out"

dcdoorknob
03-30-2012, 04:19 PM
I don't have many pet peeves on the court generally, but this is one.

Let the ball land before you call it out please. Even if its clearly going to be out, it's just annoying to me. You can't call it out before it lands, but cause it isn't out yet until it lands. And it's almost inevitable that anyone I've come across who has the habit of making these early calls eventually calls at least one out that I'm quite sure lands a lot closer to the line than they where expecting, and possibly in. Sometimes they'll correct themselves. Often not.

dsa202
04-02-2012, 07:58 AM
What about "next time I will take the point before I hit a winner?" :D

Some people might not know the rule. I didn't know before until I was told by someone on the court.

It's common sense. Would you call a strike before it crossed the strike zone? Would you count a goal before it went in? Would you call a touchdown before the runner was in the end zone?

Quit making excuses and use your head.

J_R_B
04-02-2012, 08:08 AM
It's common sense. Would you call a strike before it crossed the strike zone? Would you count a goal before it went in? Would you call a touchdown before the runner was in the end zone?

Quit making excuses and use your head.

Calling a strike or a goal or a TD is more analogous to calling a ball in before it bounces. If a pitcher throws a ball that's going way over the batter's head, you could call it a ball long before it crosses the plate, or if a QB throws a ball that's going 10 yards past any receiver, you could say it's not a TD long before it lands.

Frankly, I don't do this, but it doesn't bother me much as long as you are willing to correct yourself if you are wrong or stop it if you're called out on it.

beernutz
04-02-2012, 08:47 AM
Just happened to see this years later, LOL

What has happened in tournaments and leagues that I play, 95% of the people are fair and if they realize they made a bad call they just say "never mind it WAS in, your point."

thank goodness !

Like as has already been said, the Code rule Javier quoted was changed in 2011 to this (emphasis mine):

12. Out calls reversed. A player who calls a ball out shall reverse the call if the player becomes certain or realizes that the ball was good. The point goes to the opponent and is not replayed. However, when a receiver reverses a fault call on a serve that hit the net, the server is entitled to two serves.

Sakkijarvi
04-05-2012, 01:20 PM
In "...a guy in a recreational mixed doubles match group..." it should be all giggles, not all that serious.

Wuppy
04-20-2012, 06:56 PM
I'll call "out" if the ball is in the air when it passes the baseline ;) I'm not going to wait for it to hit the backstop.