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jefferson
02-09-2009, 10:39 AM
I had a doubles team playing avery crucial match. It was a very intense match that was fun to watch. My team won the first set and was in a breaker in the third when... I feel the roving official I feel made a crucial mistake. Was he right?

Here is the situation: My player served and lost the first point, at the end of the point his partner bounced the ball, pretty hard, over the net to return the balls to the server. At this time he was penalized a point for "ball abuse" and speaking in a different tongue that the official didnt know but thought was a curse. Okay I am okay with all that. So 2 serving o. The official awarded the server two service points still. And that is my question. I feel that my team was penalized twice, once a point and then again giving the player two service points. The scoring for rest of the breaker was screwed up. They wound up changing serves on an even total of points, ie 4-0, 4-2, etc.

I feel that the point penalty counts as the first service point and that the other team shouldve only served one point. I argued with him for about 5 minutes only to give in due to the match losing its flow.

Am I crazy?

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 10:56 AM
I had a doubles team playing avery crucial match. It was a very intense match that was fun to watch. My team won the first set and was in a breaker in the third when... I feel the roving official I feel made a crucial mistake. Was he right?

Here is the situation: My player served and lost the first point, at the end of the point his partner bounced the ball, pretty hard, over the net to return the balls to the server. At this time he was penalized a point for "ball abuse" and speaking in a different tongue that the official didnt know but thought was a curse. Okay I am okay with all that. So 2 serving o. The official awarded the server two service points still. And that is my question. I feel that my team was penalized twice, once a point and then again giving the player two service points. The scoring for rest of the breaker was screwed up. They wound up changing serves on an even total of points, ie 4-0, 4-2, etc.

I feel that the point penalty counts as the first service point and that the other team shouldve only served one point. I argued with him for about 5 minutes only to give in due to the match losing its flow.

Am I crazy?
You are not crazy. The point penalty counts as a point played. Therefore, the team that would have served the point that was penalized (second point) should serve the next point (third point). After that, your team should have served the next two points.

What section was this in?

jefferson
02-09-2009, 11:25 AM
Section 9 Upstate NY High school. But USTA official, not from the immediate area. I asked if he was planning on apoligizing for making such a mistake after the match. He said he would if he was wrong, but he knew he was right. Told me to let it go, i was wrong. Really got me p-oed. But nothing that i can do. I dont claim to have rmemorized the rule book but you would think the USTA officials should.

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 11:31 AM
Section 9 Upstate NY High school. But USTA official, not from the immediate area. I asked if he was planning on apoligizing for making such a mistake after the match. He said he would if he was wrong, but he knew he was right. Told me to let it go, i was wrong. Really got me p-oed. But nothing that i can do. I dont claim to have rmemorized the rule book but you would they the USTA officials should.
do you recall the name of the official?

jefferson
02-09-2009, 11:45 AM
no I dont. It was his first year working our tournament. The Wu's were there forever, but the last few they have been using different officials. Havent gotten to know them quite yet. Are you in the area?

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 11:48 AM
No. I am an official in Northern California. I do know a few umpires in the Upstate NY area, but that is not a mistake that the ones that I know would make. This is something that should be brought up to the coordinator of officials in your area. This is not an issue of judgment, but a more serious rule issue that should be addressed.

jefferson
02-09-2009, 11:54 AM
I spoke about with the other official there, she wouldnt tell me that i was right either. BUt she did say she would talk it over with the other official. So she might of not wanted to fuel my fire and talked to him later.

I reread my initial post it wasnt a third set breaker but a twelve point breaker to decide the 2nd set. Not that it makes a difference. thanks for responding

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 11:56 AM
As a former Tournament Director and Umpire, USTA certified... the official should have issued a warning first. End of story.


I had a doubles team playing avery crucial match. It was a very intense match that was fun to watch. My team won the first set and was in a breaker in the third when... I feel the roving official I feel made a crucial mistake. Was he right?

Here is the situation: My player served and lost the first point, at the end of the point his partner bounced the ball, pretty hard, over the net to return the balls to the server. At this time he was penalized a point for "ball abuse" and speaking in a different tongue that the official didnt know but thought was a curse. Okay I am okay with all that. So 2 serving o. The official awarded the server two service points still. And that is my question. I feel that my team was penalized twice, once a point and then again giving the player two service points. The scoring for rest of the breaker was screwed up. They wound up changing serves on an even total of points, ie 4-0, 4-2, etc.

I feel that the point penalty counts as the first service point and that the other team shouldve only served one point. I argued with him for about 5 minutes only to give in due to the match losing its flow.

Am I crazy?

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 11:58 AM
As a former Tournament Director and Umpire, USTA certified... the official should have issued a warning first. End of story.
Are you serious in this post? I think if you are really an official, you need to re-read the rulebook. There is no warning in USTA anymore. Point Penalty is the first step. End of story.

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Jefferson, my other question is, was this an umpire, or the referee? If it was not the referee, remember that this is a question of tennis law and you can appeal to the referee. But you need to ask for the referee right away before the next point is played.

jefferson
02-09-2009, 12:03 PM
Yeah they give a warning to everyone in the tourney prior to starting the draws. That is the warning. I didn't have a problem with the point penalty, just the misinterpretation of the rule. I do feel that alot of times instances arent handled the same way with consistency. For what ever reason. I try to stay on the good side of the officials for that reason.

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 12:03 PM
Are you serious in this post? I think if you are really an official, you need to re-read the rulebook. There is no warning in USTA anymore. Point Penalty is the first step. End of story.


Really... I haven't been certified since 2004. Thanks.

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 12:07 PM
Here's a exerpt from the 2008 Chair Umpire Handbook:

Always think before you say anything. Know what you will be saying before you say it. You should have
practiced or rehearsed your lines, just like an actor, before you ever stepped on the court. That way, your
words come out automatically while you concentrate on the whole match.
It is particularly valuable for you to practice giving code violations, so that when the occasion arises, you
can administer the code calmly and uniformly. For example: “Code violation. Ball abuse. Warning, Mr.
McDaniel.” Do not pause. A pause makes it sound as though you are changing your mind or you are unsure
of yourself

Thanks-

jefferson
02-09-2009, 12:08 PM
They only provide a two roving officials, I guess one is more in charge but... its not clear if one is the referee. This was sort of trivial in a sense. it didnt lose the match for us, they did that on their own. I mean I would gain much for making such a stink. Instead of being down one mini break we were down two. Very early in breaker, nothing that we couldnt pull out of.

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:09 PM
Here's a exerpt from the 2008 Chair Umpire Handbook:

Always think before you say anything. Know what you will be saying before you say it. You should have
practiced or rehearsed your lines, just like an actor, before you ever stepped on the court. That way, your
words come out automatically while you concentrate on the whole match.
It is particularly valuable for you to practice giving code violations, so that when the occasion arises, you
can administer the code calmly and uniformly. For example: “Code violation. Ball abuse. Warning, Mr.
McDaniel.” Do not pause. A pause makes it sound as though you are changing your mind or you are unsure
of yourself

Thanks-
I would be delighted to hear what the point of this post is? Is it the fact that they use the word warning?

jefferson
02-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Since i have the two of you... what code violation is it when you return an out serve. 27, 28?

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 12:13 PM
I saw that the rule has changed. When I referee'd the policy was first a warning. :oops: Sorry...

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:14 PM
Since i have the two of you... what code violation is it when you return an out serve. 27, 28?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your question.

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Just continue filling up all the threads with your nonsense.

jefferson
02-09-2009, 12:19 PM
Code 20 something, when you return a serve that was obviously out, and pace of play is slowed down as a result of having to retrieve the ball. Supposed to block into net or let go. I think it is a ridiculous violation, but Mr.Wu used to always call it. He has since passed so when I tell the story I wanted to get it right.

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:25 PM
#28. I pasted it also. Note, that it is for "obvious faults." I have never actually seen anyone penalize anybody for this.

28. Obvious faults. A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an
obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of
gamesmanship. On the other hand, if a player does not call a serve a fault and
gives the opponent the benefit of a close call, the server is not entitled to
replay the point.

jefferson
02-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Thanks Def a pointless code that should never be enforced. Thats why I think its a funny story to tell when he comes up in conversation

JavierLW
02-09-2009, 12:30 PM
The point of this post is you're acting like a jerk... take it easy alright there toughguy... I made a mistake.

He's not acting like a jerk.

You came in here insisted we were wrong, and rather than look at the rules, you used the 'ole "I used to be a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON so I must be right and you'll are wrong", ploy.

It's not a big deal either way, it's just annoying when people try to "pull rank".

Respect is earned my friend.... You could be the President of the United Planets of the Universe and if you are wrong, you are still wrong....

(Ive probably had a few arguments with Woodrow here and there, but I realize that he is an official by now and if it's something about an officiated match I respect his opinion because it seems like he actually read the rules more then I have and understands them, rather than people who just memorized them 20 years ago and may or may not of mis-interpeted them)

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:33 PM
He's not acting like a jerk.

You came in here insisted we were wrong, and rather than look at the rules, you used the 'ole "I used to be a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON so I must be right and you'll are wrong", ploy.

It's not a big deal either way, it's just annoying when people try to "pull rank".

Respect is earned my friend.... You could be the President of the United Planets of the Universe and if you are wrong, you are still wrong....

(Ive probably had a few arguments with Woodrow here and there, but I realize that he is an official by now and if it's something about an officiated match I respect his opinion because it seems like he actually read the rules more then I have and understands them, rather than people who just memorized them 20 years ago and may or may not of mis-interpeted them)
Thanks Javier. Well said. We have had a few debates, but not really arguments. I think that's because we have both respected each other's opinions, and most of what we have disagreed on has been gray area judgment and not black and white rules.

JavierLW
02-09-2009, 12:35 PM
#28. I pasted it also. Note, that it is for "obvious faults." I have never actually seen anyone penalize anybody for this.

28. Obvious faults. A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an
obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of
gamesmanship. On the other hand, if a player does not call a serve a fault and
gives the opponent the benefit of a close call, the server is not entitled to
replay the point.


There are a few things in the code that seem to be more like things that are suggested desirable behavior that Col Powell wrote about as part of "how the game was meant to be played as a honorable sport", more so then rules that you can get penalized for.

Two that I see all the time is the one about how you should not overly celebrate points won, and how you shouldnt get pouty when you lose a point. Have you ever seen those enforced anywhere?

Obviously people act up in that manner all the time.

Especially kids nowdays. I play in an adult and HS challenge ladder on Sunday's and nobody seems to teach these kids proper behavior anymore and usually their parents are even watching while they act up.

I just always assume that most I could do is point out the bad behavior to someone and say "see here, it says you shouldnt act like that......, grow up!!!!".

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 12:51 PM
He's not acting like a jerk.

You came in here insisted we were wrong, and rather than look at the rules, you used the 'ole "I used to be a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON so I must be right and you'll are wrong", ploy.

It's not a big deal either way, it's just annoying when people try to "pull rank".

Respect is earned my friend.... You could be the President of the United Planets of the Universe and if you are wrong, you are still wrong....

(Ive probably had a few arguments with Woodrow here and there, but I realize that he is an official by now and if it's something about an officiated match I respect his opinion because it seems like he actually read the rules more then I have and understands them, rather than people who just memorized them 20 years ago and may or may not of mis-interpeted them)


Hey buddy.. I didn't insist anybody was wrong. You and Woodrow should enjoy each other while your still young... :oops:

Slicendicer
02-09-2009, 12:58 PM
You came in here insisted we were wrong, and rather than look at the rules, you used the 'ole "I used to be a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON so I must be right and you'll are wrong", ploy.

It's not a big deal either way, it's just annoying when people try to "pull rank".

Pull rank... do you know what that means? :confused:

Anyhoo... I read a bit of the current USTA Point Penalty System... seems that these are suggestions and it is up to the officials to determine if a "warning" or a loss of point should be applied. I retract my earlier statement that I was wrong.


In other words... nahnny-nahnny-boo-boo... :shock::mrgreen::lol:

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 12:59 PM
Pull rank... do you know what that means? :confused:

Anyhoo... I read a bit of the current USTA Point Penalty System... seems that these are suggestions and it is up to the officials to determine if a "warning" or a loss of point should be applied. I retract my earlier statement that I was wrong.


In other words... nahnny-nahnny-boo-boo... :shock::mrgreen::lol:
You are still wrong.

At least you have your maturity though.

JavierLW
02-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Pull rank... do you know what that means? :confused:

Anyhoo... I read a bit of the current USTA Point Penalty System... seems that these are suggestions and it is up to the officials to determine if a "warning" or a loss of point should be applied. I retract my earlier statement that I was wrong.


In other words... nahnny-nahnny-boo-boo... :shock::mrgreen::lol:

Which part?

Post your finding and try to formulate a sensible argument, will you?

If you look on Table 12 for the Point Penalty System, it lists the First Offense as one where you lose a point. (not a warning)

Perhaps they contradicted themselves in the rules in some other spot? If so then please post that.

As far as your last statement, yes I agree with you, you did indeed sound like that..... You got that one spot on, good job!!!

woodrow1029
02-09-2009, 01:33 PM
Which part?

Post your finding and try to formulate a sensible argument, will you?

If you look on Table 12 for the Point Penalty System, it lists the First Offense as one where you lose a point. (not a warning)

Perhaps they contradicted themselves in the rules in some other spot? If so then please post that.

As far as your last statement, yes I agree with you, you did indeed sound like that..... You got that one spot on, good job!!!
I think what he is referring to is the "caution" or "soft warning." I think he is thinking that that is an official warning code violation. It is not.