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View Full Version : Laid back wrist/ cocking of wrist - the same thing?


Indiana Puffed
02-11-2009, 06:39 AM
Hello, is a laid back wrist and a cocked wrist the same, or are they different degrees of the same thing etc?

Furthermore, I am wondering what type of strokes people tend lay their wrist back on i.e the when and when nots?!

Thanks, Puffed

LeeD
02-11-2009, 06:44 AM
To me, "cocking" would imply a players deliberate bending the wrist back. It would be a mental decision made before the act.
"Laid back" can be deliberate and mental, but it can also mean the wrists get bent back by the natural loopy or kinetics of the backswing, so the player might not deliberately lay his wrist back, but his prop motion makes him do it.

Indiana Puffed
02-11-2009, 07:09 AM
Leed, that would make sense with regards to this article where I came across the term 'cocking.'

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/backhand/backhand.aspx?id=148650

In the 1st paragraph, he mentions Gasquet's hand is cocked, therefore intentional. It is interesting you mention laying back could be intentional/unintentional. I have also read the term 'hook' before in reference to wrist position, though I cannot reference right now. I believe it is where the hand is towards the inner arm. I can't really think of which strokes this position could be advocated in, except maybe the beginning of the serve motion before pronation perhaps depending on a persons serve grip?!?

Bungalo Bill
02-11-2009, 07:17 AM
To me, "cocking" would imply a players deliberate bending the wrist back. It would be a mental decision made before the act.
"Laid back" can be deliberate and mental, but it can also mean the wrists get bent back by the natural loopy or kinetics of the backswing, so the player might not deliberately lay his wrist back, but his prop motion makes him do it.

Very good explanation LeeD.

user92626
02-11-2009, 01:56 PM
Leed's explanation also sounds good to me.

I think Nadal's cocking his wrist during his takeback noticebly and Fed lays back his wrist for the fh swing.

I tried to emulate Nadal's "wrist cocking" but the motion just felt useless to me. And laying back as much as Fed does is hard to get some consistency.

In short, I'm just best to play my level. LOL. hehehehe

Indiana Puffed
02-12-2009, 12:47 AM
I have been developing my one handed backhand topspin shot using closer to a BH semi western grip than an Eastern backhand, but without the cocking. Now I have seen this and shadowed the motion with a cocked wrist, my contact point changes dramatically. Due to heavy snow I can't get out on court to practice with the new wrist position and see how it feels to me, but I shadow strokes a lot to try.... I am hopeful it might help my consistency and ability to impart better topspin that I have had problems with. With a cocked wrist, it seems to me that the strings will brush up more thus creating topspin. I have been having problems on OHBH topspin shots, ploughing through the ball but not quite getting the ball up then down to stay in, even if I get down low with my knees then bend up. Fingers crossed I'll see an improvement over time.

As for the forehand, I'd best just let that be, best not tinker!

Sublime
02-12-2009, 07:01 AM
Leed, that would make sense with regards to this article where I came across the term 'cocking.'

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/backhand/backhand.aspx?id=148650


He may be slightly cocking his wrist, but I think mostly he's readjusting his grip. From a more "handshake" for forehands, to this more "hammer" grip for the back hand. It looks like the wrist is more involved because the angle of the racket to the forearm changes.

Indiana Puffed
02-13-2009, 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana Puffed View Post
Leed, that would make sense with regards to this article where I came across the term 'cocking.'

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instr...aspx?id=148650
He may be slightly cocking his wrist, but I think mostly he's readjusting his grip. From a more "handshake" for forehands, to this more "hammer" grip for the back hand. It looks like the wrist is more involved because the angle of the racket to the forearm changes.

Certainly the article says his wrist remains cocked throughout the motion (paragraphs 1 & 4) and to me his wrist looks like it remains that way.

I'll have to study more into his backhand to confirm or deny he consistantly cocks on his backhand. I don't think there is any denying he has one of the best though, it's stuff my tennis court dreams are made of!

It got me thinking, I normally have adjusted between an Eastern and a Semi Western depending on oncoming ball height.... it can be tricky to properly adjust my grip and make the correct decision on grip, therefore my backhands have an element of indecision (couple this with the choice of doing various slices with my continental). With a Semi Western and standard neutral wrist placement, generally it copes well with high balls, but is slightly tougher than an eastern on lower balls. By cocking, I think it can adjust to lower balls and hit with plenty of topspin. Therefore in theory i can hit higher balls and lower balls with the same grip but different wrist angles on each. Theory is one thing, until the snow clears that is!

Thanks to all for their comments, anything that gets me pondering is appreciated!

LeeD
02-13-2009, 09:57 AM
I, of course, don't know !!
With same SW grip, all balls lower than chest high get topped.
But any ball over shoulder high gets flat with sidespin, shoulders turned much more, rotating trunk, and flat swing.
And weirder yet, most balls over forehead heights get continental service grip hard slice semi overheaded with lotsa knee bend!:oops::oops:
I'm getting old, need to employ what works.

Indiana Puffed
02-14-2009, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by LeeD
And weirder yet, most balls over forehead heights get continental service grip hard slice semi overheaded with lotsa knee bend!

Yeah a like using continental slice on a high ball to backhand as an attacking shot, it is good to angle the slice down so it barely bounces when it is in the opponents court. And I like getting up to the net for volleys so it can be a good approach shot too.

On the courts tomorrow so I'll see if the SW top shots work out for me. :)

stules
02-14-2009, 02:16 PM
I recently changed my 'ready position' from wrist neutral, to wrist cocked or laid back (in a relaxed way).
Personal observations...
It helped me hit out in front better.
It removed the variable of a hinged wrist during the shot, resulting in inconsistencies.
It set up the volleys better, meaning that prep was simpler wiht only a unit turn.

For me I have kept it as technique that I want to use.

10sDog
05-08-2012, 04:15 PM
Technically, in biomechanics, cocking refers to the position farthest back. Laid back isn't really defined. In line with the forearm, the wrist is referred to in the neutral position. The wrist moving backwards is wrist extension (behind neutral), in the forward position (ahead of neutral). Cocking does not need to coincide with wrist extension. Different body parts may be cocked. Usually the two most common types of cocking are arm-cocking and wrist/hand cocking.

Limpinhitter
05-08-2012, 04:30 PM
Hello, is a laid back wrist and a cocked wrist the same, or are they different degrees of the same thing etc?

Furthermore, I am wondering what type of strokes people tend lay their wrist back on i.e the when and when nots?!

Thanks, Puffed

No. Cocking the wrist means pulling the thumb toward the forearm, thereby increasing the angle between the racquet and forearm. Laying the wrist back is does not change the angle between the racquet and forearm, it brings the knuckles closer to the forearm.

PS: I just love it when I realize I've just responded to a post FROM THREE YEARS AGO!

onehandbh
05-08-2012, 08:27 PM
No. Cocking the wrist means pulling the thumb toward the forearm, thereby increasing the angle between the racquet and forearm. Laying the wrist back is does not change the angle between the racquet and forearm, it brings the knuckles closer to the forearm.

PS: I just love it when I realize I've just responded to a post FROM THREE YEARS AGO!

If you relax your wrist and swing forward it should naturally lay back.
If you have a solid, hard c*ck in the take back, that means your wrist and
forearms are tensed and you probably have too much tension overall in your
body.

SystemicAnomaly
05-08-2012, 08:30 PM
No. Cocking the wrist means pulling the thumb toward the forearm, thereby increasing the angle between the racquet and forearm. Laying the wrist back is does not change the angle between the racquet and forearm, it brings the knuckles closer to the forearm...

This sounds reasonable. When we talk about laid-back wrist on the FH, we are talking about wrist extension. However, when we c0ck the wrist on a serve, we have (primarily) radial deviation (perhaps with a bit of wrist extension).

http://www.vistalab.com/images/flexion.jpghttp://www.vistalab.com/images/WristRadial.jpg

sabala
05-08-2012, 09:43 PM
If you relax your wrist and swing forward it should naturally lay back.
If you have a solid, hard c*ck in the take back, that means your wrist and
forearms are tensed and you probably have too much tension overall in your
body.

LoLz! Beavis and Butthead approve this post...:twisted:

Funbun
05-10-2012, 04:07 PM
This sounds reasonable. When we talk about laid-back wrist on the FH, we are talking about wrist extension. However, when we c0ck the wrist on a serve, we have (primarily) radial deviation (perhaps with a bit of wrist extension).

http://www.vistalab.com/images/flexion.jpghttp://www.vistalab.com/images/WristRadial.jpg


You would generally, if we were to go by this definition, "c0ck" the wrist on slices and volleys. As SA would say, it's like a brief trigger moment, where one would tighten at impact.

However, for the forehand (or 2HBH, sometimes), ALWAYS keep in mind that the wrist extension that is described here should never be deliberate. Your wrist will naturally lay back as a result of bringing the racquet forward, towards the ball.

Imagine whipping your racquet through the ball. Your wrist will essentially move on its own as a result of rotational energy from your body, shoulder, etc. Some players like to take their racquet back in the "pat the dog" style, where the racquet is facing down and the angle between the hand and forearm is almost 180 degrees (if you may, "keep the wrist straight"). I've noticed Murray does this on his forehand; check him out.

Essentially, you want to ideally keep the wrist relaxed throughout the shot.

Limpinhitter
05-10-2012, 07:58 PM
This sounds reasonable. When we talk about laid-back wrist on the FH, we are talking about wrist extension. However, when we c0ck the wrist on a serve, we have (primarily) radial deviation (perhaps with a bit of wrist extension).

http://www.vistalab.com/images/flexion.jpghttp://www.vistalab.com/images/WristRadial.jpg


Thanks! A picture is worth a thousand words.

Limpinhitter
05-10-2012, 08:00 PM
LoLz! Beavis and Butthead approve this post...:twisted:

Hahaha! I wasn't going to touch that with a ten foot pole . . . Ooops!