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View Full Version : doubling pulling on gamma x-2 . offsetting tension difference


autumn_leaf
02-13-2009, 05:03 PM
edit: okay guys. i don't double pull for all the strings. just the first two mains because it's an x-2. and clamping it on the outside of the frame like in YULitle's video doesn't work.


so i read a lot about double pulling and came across a lot of different opinions but the general consensus is don't do it because it won't be even tension.

the most interesting post i've read is this one:

This is really really bad! And I'll tell you why. I decided to measure the actual tension of my drop weight stringer with the clutch/rachet by using a fish scale which is a very common method. I have a fixed clamp system by the way.

I tested it with the racquet mounted and simulating how I would pull the first main string with a starting clamp, clamping the string on an adjacent hole on the inside of the racquet. When there's no friction at all like pulling with the head of the racquet pointing toward the string gripper, the tension was dead on.

Now, when tensioning the opposite way, with the string bent under the frame, the tension was CONSISTENTLY 2-3 lbs lower! I tested and re-tested many times, and it's still 2-3 lbs lower. The friction resulted from the bend reduced the tension by 2-3 lbs!

I also tested the tension without the frame mounted, and the fish scale showed that the tension was dead on, meaning that my drop weight stringer is good.

Lesson learned was that any kind of friction will result in significant tension loss. duh! I can't imagine how much tension you are losing by pulling 2 mains at a time, let alone pulling two crosses with the mains already in.

As for cross, I used to reduce about 2lbs lower than the main, thinking that the cross is shorter, but after seeing how much friction can reduce tension, I am stringing it at the same as the main from now on!

and an interesting post afterwards

I don't think many people could tell a difference in a double blind test. With the basic assumption of two pounds loss in a double pull and a reference tension of 60 pounds, by just adding one pound to the double pull case, the average mains tension would still be 60 pounds (59 + 61 = 120, 120 /2 = 60). The same 60 as the ref tension on a single pull mains string job. If you assume 3 pounds loss, then add 1.5 pounds to the double pull case. I'm not advocating varying from GASP, but really who could tell (besides the stringer who has to live with his conscience)? :p

the question i have if the latter post works, wouldn't you need to increase tension by ~6lbs if it's a 3 lb loss on each string?

anyone with a fishing scale that wants to test this out for me? i'll look up how much one is later on and if it's not too expensive i'll do it myself.

Jonny S&V
02-13-2009, 05:16 PM
so i read a lot about double pulling and came across a lot of different opinions but the general consensus is don't do it because it won't be even tension.

the most interesting post i've read is this one:



and an interesting post afterwards



the question i have if the latter post works, wouldn't you need to increase tension by ~6lbs if it's a 3 lb loss on each string?

anyone with a fishing scale that wants to test this out for me? i'll look up how much one is later on and if it's not too expensive i'll do it myself.

The X-2 pulls tension until the bar is balanced, so even if double pulling had any added benefits, it wouldn't do anything with the X-2 (and you shouldn't double-pull in any circumstances, IMO).

jefferson
02-13-2009, 05:25 PM
The only reason for double pulling is to save time, I am guessing. But in reality how much time are you saving? Seriously at the most 3 to 4 minutes! I'll test it out on my own rackets. It takes me any where from 17 minutes to 20 minutes to string my rackets "normally" next time I will double pull the entire racket, mains and crosses. Then we will see how much time can be saved. I am guessing not too much. Not enough to make it worth while. IMO

autumn_leaf
02-13-2009, 05:34 PM
okay guys. i don't double pull for all the strings. just the first two mains because it's an x-2. and clamping it on the outside of the frame like in YULitle's video doesn't work.

autumn_leaf
02-13-2009, 05:37 PM
The only reason for double pulling is to save time, I am guessing. But in reality how much time are you saving? Seriously at the most 3 to 4 minutes! I'll test it out on my own rackets. It takes me any where from 17 minutes to 20 minutes to string my rackets "normally" next time I will double pull the entire racket, mains and crosses. Then we will see how much time can be saved. I am guessing not too much. Not enough to make it worth while. IMO

i never meant for this to be the point of the thread (time saving). i wanted consistency in tension, which is hard for an x-2 due to double pulling on he first mains to get started.

also to explain why clamping on the outside doesn't work (unless i did something wrong) is the fact that the tension head just fall because the clamp isn't doing it's job or the clamp just fall off from the stress and the awkward position it is forced to be in due to the stringing machine's design.

jefferson
02-13-2009, 05:54 PM
If its just the first two to get started then I would not worry about it. No one is going to be able to tell the difference.

Do you own a starting clamp? This is a tool that has many uses. Worth the money spent. I use mine almost every job I do.

You could clamp the starting point with your flying clamp, tension one string and put the starting clamp outside the frame to hold the tension. Tension the other main and use the other flying clamp to hold the tension (actually clamping the same two mains that the first clamp is on, just opposite side.) Tension the next main on the same side you just did and move the first clamp over to this main. now you can take off the "starting clamp tool" and string on.
Very hard to explain on paper but it works. But you need the starting clamp.

Jonny S&V
02-13-2009, 05:57 PM
If its just the first two to get started then I would not worry about it. No one is going to be able to tell the difference.

Do you own a starting clamp? This is a tool that has many uses. Worth the money spent. I use mine almost every job I do.

You could clamp the starting point with your flying clamp, tension one string and put the starting clamp outside the frame to hold the tension. Tension the other main and use the other flying clamp to hold the tension (actually clamping the same two mains that the first clamp is on, just opposite side.) Tension the next main on the same side you just did and move the first clamp over to this main. now you can take off the "starting clamp tool" and string on.
Very hard to explain on paper but it works. But you need the starting clamp.

You can't do this as the starting clamp would get in the way of one of the tensionings. The best thing that you can do (aside from buying fixed clamps) is to not do a starting knot and clamp the the first cross and then tension both strings, string a couple more crosses, then come back to the starting clamp and tension those two crosses again. This won't work with a one-piece though...

jefferson
02-13-2009, 06:05 PM
"I wanted consistency in tension, which is hard for an x-2 due to double pulling on he first mains to get started."

I thought you were talking about the mains?

What about the 50 -50 method? Pain in the arse, I have never tried it but it looks like it would not be fun. And take a long time.

I would crank up the tension and double pull the first two crosses. Eff it. Truly what is the big deal?

autumn_leaf
02-13-2009, 06:41 PM
If its just the first two to get started then I would not worry about it. No one is going to be able to tell the difference.

Do you own a starting clamp? This is a tool that has many uses. Worth the money spent. I use mine almost every job I do.

You could clamp the starting point with your flying clamp, tension one string and put the starting clamp outside the frame to hold the tension. Tension the other main and use the other flying clamp to hold the tension (actually clamping the same two mains that the first clamp is on, just opposite side.) Tension the next main on the same side you just did and move the first clamp over to this main. now you can take off the "starting clamp tool" and string on.
Very hard to explain on paper but it works. But you need the starting clamp.

well the stringing is just for me. i would assume it's important since the middle mains is where the sweetspot is.

no i don't own a starting clamp, prolly should but that's why i'm asking about this first.

no flying clamps won't work. i explained why in the above posts. due to the design of the x-2 parts either get in the way, the tension head just drops for some reason, or the clamp falls off due to holding the tension in an awkward position outside the frame.

autumn_leaf
02-13-2009, 06:46 PM
"I wanted consistency in tension, which is hard for an x-2 due to double pulling on he first mains to get started."

I thought you were talking about the mains?

What about the 50 -50 method? Pain in the arse, I have never tried it but it looks like it would not be fun. And take a long time.

I would crank up the tension and double pull the first two crosses. Eff it. Truly what is the big deal?

yes i am talking about mains...how did people think i was talking about crosses (first time i even mentioned crosses on this thread)?

i have not seen the 50-50 method, but will look into it.

and for the last part i want to know how much to crank up the tension for the double pull, hence the reason for this thread. and the big deal is that i want to a good stringer and a big part of that is being consistent or in this case having the strings as close to my desired tension as possible. and also i'm obsessive about the specs on my gear so it drive me nuts that i know i'm doing something wrong.

hellojeffo
02-13-2009, 07:45 PM
Can you explain why YuLitle's method didn't work? Was it due to slippage?

jefferson
02-14-2009, 04:39 AM
Oh Jonny S + V mentioned the crosses, i thought it was you for a second sorry.
Since you were talking about the mains, my first idea would work. It is just very hard to explain. the starting clamp will not be in the way, because when you get back to that side of the mains, You can remove it without losing tension cause the flying clamp is holding the tension from inside of the frame.

The 50 - 50 is a method for the crosses, not the mains. You already are doing the 50-50 for the mains. It just means that you start from the center.

autumn_leaf
02-14-2009, 04:45 AM
Can you explain why YuLitle's method didn't work? Was it due to slippage?

yes. slippage would be the main problem.

i was hoping someone with a fishing scale could test this out for me since there's a wide range of tension loss ideas from people on this board.

that's why i was so interested when someone said it was only 2-3lbs of tension loss, and i hoped increasing the tension would even out the tension but i didn't know how to increase it by.

jefferson
02-14-2009, 05:04 AM
Sorry I dont know the actual specs that you are asking for. I'll get outta the way and let someone else who can answer the question you asked. No more possible solutions from me. Good luck I hope your search ends in gold.

SteveI
02-14-2009, 05:12 AM
edit: okay guys. i don't double pull for all the strings. just the first two mains because it's an x-2. and clamping it on the outside of the frame like in YULitle's video doesn't work.


so i read a lot about double pulling and came across a lot of different opinions but the general consensus is don't do it because it won't be even tension.

the most interesting post i've read is this one:



and an interesting post afterwards



the question i have if the latter post works, wouldn't you need to increase tension by ~6lbs if it's a 3 lb loss on each string?

anyone with a fishing scale that wants to test this out for me? i'll look up how much one is later on and if it's not too expensive i'll do it myself.

Hey there,

This comes up from time to time. What are you saying when you state "doubling pulling". Do you mean you are adjusting the tension by double pulling.. and waiting until the bar is level? Or are you saying you are pulling two strings with one pull?

If you are adjusting the tension bar multiple times to obtain a consistant and firmer stringbed (ie waiting for the bar to settle and going back to adjust for string properties).. that will of course show you down but is more than fine to do. You are making use of the constant pull feature of the dropweight system. Pulling two strings at once is not really a good practice.

If you are worried about the loss of tension on the 1st 2 mains (that the real question right?) when using a dropweight system with flying clamps there are ways to deal with that problem. You can double pull and/or over tension the 1st few mains... use a starting clamp etc.

Note: Clamping it on the outside of the frame like in YULitle's video did not work for me also. I will be going back to try it again in the future but the two times I did attempt it, the clamps did not hold for some reason.

I hope that helps.
Steve

autumn_leaf
02-14-2009, 05:23 AM
Hey there,

If you are worried about the loss of tension on the 1st 2 mains (that the real question right?) when using a dropweight system with flying clamps there are ways to deal with that problem. You can double pull and/or over tension the 1st few mains... use a starting clamp etc.

I hope that helps.
Steve

well this is what i'm talking about. but like i said before i don't know how much to over tension by, and i don't currently have a starting clamp. this is why i'm asking if anyone with a fish scale or anything else that can measure string tension do the experiment for me (double pull once and see how far from the desired tension is and how much to overtension to achieve the desired tension).

SteveI
02-14-2009, 05:32 AM
well this is what i'm talking about. but like i said before i don't know how much to over tension by, and i don't currently have a starting clamp. this is why i'm asking if anyone with a fish scale or anything else that can measure string tension do the experiment for me (double pull once and see how far from the desired tension is and how much to overtension to achieve the desired tension).

Ahhh... no need to ask further. I have a string-o-meter. Measuring the tension fresh off the stringer, I found about 3 lbs of difference. I over tension about 3 lbs to help make up the difference. I always double pull all the mains to obtain a firmer and more consistant stringbed. I do not worry about the extra 5 min to do the entire string job.. I just try to do a nice consistant job. :-)

Steve

autumn_leaf
02-14-2009, 05:50 AM
Ahhh... no need to ask further. I have a string-o-meter. Measuring the tension fresh off the stringer, I found about 3 lbs of difference. I over tension about 3 lbs to help make up the difference. I always double pull all the mains to obtain a firmer and more consistant stringbed. I do not worry about the extra 5 min to do the entire string job.. I just try to do a nice consistant job. :-)

Steve

well this is the exact information i wanted to know. i was confused because (see OP) one person responded that if the tension loss was 3lbs over tensioning by 1.5 lbs would solve the problem and i didn't know how the tension was distributed.

just to make sure. by your string o meter if i double pulled (series) two mains at 63lbs i would end up with 60lbs on each?

toeknee
02-14-2009, 01:15 PM
here you go, this is my diy starting clamp. good luck.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/toekneeology/starting_clamp2.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/toekneeology/starting_clamp.jpg

autumn_leaf
02-14-2009, 04:03 PM
here you go, this is my diy starting clamp. good luck.


huh..does it slip at all?

jim e
02-14-2009, 04:22 PM
well this is the exact information i wanted to know. i was confused because (see OP) one person responded that if the tension loss was 3lbs over tensioning by 1.5 lbs would solve the problem and i didn't know how the tension was distributed.

just to make sure. by your string o meter if i double pulled (series) two mains at 63lbs i would end up with 60lbs on each?

Ahhh... no need to ask further. I have a string-o-meter. Measuring the tension fresh off the stringer, I found about 3 lbs of difference. I over tension about 3 lbs to help make up the difference. I always double pull all the mains to obtain a firmer and more consistant stringbed. I do not worry about the extra 5 min to do the entire string job.. I just try to do a nice consistant job. :-)

Steve

There is really no reason to double pull any strings at all! No way would the stringbed be equal!

toeknee
02-14-2009, 04:53 PM
huh..does it slip at all?

No slipping, even when pulled to 75lb. Notice the roughed-up surface of the metal pieces and also notice the width of each pieces. This is to aid with maximum gripping and manual string damage/crushing.

autumn_leaf
02-14-2009, 07:29 PM
There is really no reason to double pull any strings at all! No way would the stringbed be equal!

did you read any of my reasons as stated several times above????

and to toeknee: thank you for the diy clamp. i'll have to try it sometime.

mars76
12-29-2010, 09:50 AM
Hi toeknee,

Could you please post the pictures of your DIY Starting Clamp..

Thanks..

Bud
12-29-2010, 02:03 PM
The only reason for double pulling is to save time, I am guessing. But in reality how much time are you saving? Seriously at the most 3 to 4 minutes! I'll test it out on my own rackets. It takes me any where from 17 minutes to 20 minutes to string my rackets "normally" next time I will double pull the entire racket, mains and crosses. Then we will see how much time can be saved. I am guessing not too much. Not enough to make it worth while. IMO

I'd be interested to know this. It would also be helpful if you checked the DT of the stringbed on the same racquet, same tension for both single pull and double pull stringing.

Oops... just saw the date of the OP! :oops:

Carolina Racquet
12-29-2010, 03:33 PM
All X-2 users... consider purchasing the start pin from Klippermate. $3.75, so it's much cheaper than a starting clamp.

If you're not familiar with a start pin, it's basically a 17g wire with a silicone covered "head". It eliminates the double pull because you can use it to anchor your clamp to a single string when you clamp off.

So with it, you will have consistency with all your mains and it is not machine specific, so it is compatible with your x-2.

Here's a link:

http://www.klipperusa.com/products/productdetail.php?catnum=A748

Bud
12-29-2010, 03:36 PM
All X-2 users... consider purchasing the start pin from Klippermate. $3.75, so it's much cheaper than a starting clamp.

If you're not familiar with a start pin, it's basically a 17g wire with a silicone covered "head". It eliminates the double pull because you can use it to anchor your clamp to a single string when you clamp off.

So with it, you will have consistency with all your mains and it is not machine specific, so it is compatible with your x-2.

Here's a link:

http://www.klipperusa.com/products/productdetail.php?catnum=A748

Really no need to use a starting pin or a starting clamp.

danno123
12-29-2010, 03:39 PM
All X-2 users... consider purchasing the start pin from Klippermate. $3.75, so it's much cheaper than a starting clamp.

If you're not familiar with a start pin, it's basically a 17g wire with a silicone covered "head". It eliminates the double pull because you can use it to anchor your clamp to a single string when you clamp off.

So with it, you will have consistency with all your mains and it is not machine specific, so it is compatible with your x-2.

Here's a link:

http://www.klipperusa.com/products/productdetail.php?catnum=A748

Now that is a neat idea. Being the cheap bastart that I am, I'll bet I could replicate that thing with a scrap piece of string, a wooden dowel and a piece of rubber. Tie scrap piece of string to dowel. Poke hole in piece of rubber, thread free end of scrap string through it and butt it up against the dowel (to cushion the frame so it doesn't directly touch the dowel).

SteveI
12-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Really no need to use a starting pin or a starting clamp.

If you are using non-fixed clamp system (flying/floating) and not using a starting clamp, starting pin.. or the method on the YouTube Vid.. You are losing a few pounds of tension on the inner most mains. Indeed, there is a need to employ one of those methods or starting devices. You can also over-tension the 1st few mains.. but it is far from accurate.

Bud
12-29-2010, 04:11 PM
If you are using non-fixed clamp system (flying/floating) and not using a starting clamp, starting pin.. or the method on the YouTube Vid.. You are losing a few pounds of tension on the inner most mains. Indeed, there is a need to employ one of those methods or starting devices. You can also over-tension the 1st few mains.. but it is far from accurate.

I learned years ago that stringing in general is far from perfect and small things like this make little to no difference in the final stringbed stiffness.

My next experiment is to string the same racquet twice. The first time I'll double pull all mains and crosses. The second time, I'll single pull all mains and crosses. I'll then compare the final SBS for each string job.

I'm betting the difference will be negligible.

SteveI
12-30-2010, 01:36 AM
The method that I employ when using my dropweight machine is to make sure the tension bar is completely "settled". Having to pull one extra time is what I refer to as double pulling. As far as my machine goes it creates a firmer and more consistant stringbed. It allows the machine really complete the constant pull function and reduce tension loss. I have a linear gripper which makes this process quite easy, say over the Klippermate and lower end Gamma machines. As far as tension loss in the inner mains (when not using starting clamp,pin.. etc), it is there. Each stringer has to set a standard that creates a consistant, quality stringjob that they are comfortable with. While you can create a consistant, quality stringjob on most machines. You may have to spend more time and utilize a few extra tricks to create the same string job on a lesser machine. You should be aware of things like possible frame compression and extra tension loss (drawback on flying clamps, inner mains) when using certain stringing machines and systems. There are work-arounds for all or or most of them. If you care to not to address those issues, that is a very personal choice. They matter if they are important to you. If you do not care if your frames may come off the stringer 1/4" short or there is a 3-5 lbs difference in your 1st few mains, that is a personal choice. These issues are still there.

danno123
12-30-2010, 08:51 AM
I learned years ago that stringing in general is far from perfect and small things like this make little to no difference in the final stringbed stiffness.

My next experiment is to string the same racquet twice. The first time I'll double pull all mains and crosses. The second time, I'll single pull all mains and crosses. I'll then compare the final SBS for each string job.

I'm betting the difference will be negligible.

The other night, I started stringing a racket using a floating clamp as a starting clamp. I don't know why, but after I had pulled a few mains, it was clear to me that they were too loose. I unclamped, restarted and double pulled and the mains were much tighter (although I don't know why).

* by "double pull" I mean pulling tension on one string to tighten two mains, not pulling tension on two strings at once, which would be stupid.

autumn_leaf
01-28-2011, 08:27 AM
The other night, I started stringing a racket using a floating clamp as a starting clamp. I don't know why, but after I had pulled a few mains, it was clear to me that they were too loose. I unclamped, restarted and double pulled and the mains were much tighter (although I don't know why).

* by "double pull" I mean pulling tension on one string to tighten two mains, not pulling tension on two strings at once, which would be stupid.

first of all, wow, didn't even remember this thread lol.

as for the floating clamp, if it's the cheap plastic ones that comes with the x-2 then it probably slipped...a lot. easy way to tell is to marker off the string next to the clamp to see if it is moving.

ricardo
01-28-2011, 11:07 AM
okay guys. i don't double pull for all the strings. just the first two mains because it's an x-2. and clamping it on the outside of the frame like in YULitle's video doesn't work.

I have already strung 12 rackets using my Gamma X2 and i have been using YULitle technique (single pull the first two mains and clamping on the outside of the frame).

I have used this technique both for starting mains from the head (top) or from the bottom (throat).

If YULitle can do it, i can too...

ricardo
01-28-2011, 11:21 AM
All X-2 users... consider purchasing the start pin from Klippermate. $3.75, so it's much cheaper than a starting clamp.

If you're not familiar with a start pin, it's basically a 17g wire with a silicone covered "head". It eliminates the double pull because you can use it to anchor your clamp to a single string when you clamp off.

So with it, you will have consistency with all your mains and it is not machine specific, so it is compatible with your x-2.

Here's a link:

http://www.klipperusa.com/products/productdetail.php?catnum=A748

Maybe Gamma should provide this low-cost start pin as part of the other bundled tools that they currenly provide. I know i will be using this tool for all my string jobs. What about it Gamma???