Collecting simple 4.5 player strategies

[Xevoius]

So I need some help with basic strategies. Here my current list of things I am going to try to implement from now on when playing in 4.5 tournaments. I am going to literally bring a piece of paper with this stuff written on it to the match so that I do not forget what I am doing.

1) Hit to backhand repeatedly, see if they can prove they can keep the ball in on that side - try both high bounching topspin and deep flat strokes while testing

2) Check if they can keep longer 5+ stroke rallies going and remember to only hit at 3/4 percent and throw in some underspin every 3rd or so shot - basically counterpunch (my style) and make them go for the winner

3)Throw in the short/paceless ball to see if they can volley, also use lob repeatedly to see if they have the desire to get to the ball

4)Murder all short balls, even if that is all they hit - DO NOT get caught in the dink placement game, this is CERTAIN DEATH

5)Try using a deep underspin approach shot to thier backhand side so that they are pressured to hit a passing shot or lob and so that they get a good look at me charging the net before they have to make the play

6)My backhand side is not a weapon so I must only try to consistenly get it back over the net which means I will need to slice if I am not in a great position to drive it - DO NOT try to hit winners from this side during rallies

7)If I am getting wiped off the court, slow the whole game down to try and not let the other player feel like they are dictating play by taking more time in changeovers and between serves - bring towel to back of court to wipe down between points

When serving and returning serve...

1)High kicker to their backhand, if they seem like they are getting it back consistently, follow it in for volley (could be questionable since my volleys are not my strongest point, however, they may react poorly to the pressure of the net charge when returning serve)

2)Try to get free points by hitting flat serves up the middle - must have kicker feeling consistent before I start this one

3)Hit backhand kicker returns with a low to the net underspin stroke - DO NOT try and go over these balls

Can you think of anything else I might want to try on a 4.5 player? It seems that often the winner at the 4.5 level is the player who is better at the "keep it in game" and not many players are using any strategies. Now when stepping into the 5.0+ level, this seems to change as everyone has an outstanding "keep it in" game and you are forced to go for winners. They also seem to know exactly how to peck and peck at my weaknesses.

~Cheers

[kevhen]

Sounds very similar to the strategies I employ. I wouldn't murder all short balls unless they are high and short. Low and short balls you should try to place and possibly approach behind. But high sitters with topspin should be ripped for winners. At least that is what I usually try to do. 4.5 players don't always rip short balls for winners but will just place them well for winners. I find 4.5 players to just be extremely consistent and have great placement abilities and able to hit slow and fast shots themselves while hitting against slow and fast incoming balls, but often they hit winners with placement alone.

[fantom]

I find that most 4.5 players will hit more unforced errors if you hit the ball deep. By "deep", I mean within 3 feet of the baseline.

[vin]

Here are a few thoughts, although I don't have much success against 4.5 players so take it with a grain of salt.

Maybe I have the wrong approach, but I think you're a bit too concerned with what's on the other side of the net. I prefer to start off playing my own game and then making adjustments from there if necessary.

For example, I want to hit forehands, and I want to hit them cross court. I don't care if the guy's backhand sucks, I'm going to challenge his forehand first because that's what I have to do to hit the shots that I am best at.

Only when I feel that using my 'A game' is not going to get me a win will I start adjusting my play.

You may end up hitting low percentage shots to go after a weakness that you didn't really have to. In the end, you may be shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, some of your strategies seem to contradict your counterpunch style of play. Serve and volley? Free points off serve? Forcing opponent into pressure? I thought a typical counterpuncher plays percentage tennis and entices their opponent to apply the pressure on them. THEN they attack.

[Xevoius]

Hey Vin,

"I think you're a bit too concerned with what's on the other side of the net" - see that is exactly what I am trying to concern myself with to reach the next level of play. I feel that I have strong strokes but I tend to just "bang" during tournaments and coming away feeling like why didn't focus more on what the other player's weakness was. When I stick to strickly getting the ball back deep with pace, the other play tends to get used to it and then I never change my game.

Maybe I should take your advice and challenge the forehand crosscourt first because I feel my forehand is very relieable and start off really simply with a plan like that and stick to it if it is working.

Maybe a baseliner with a good serve would have been a better description of my play. Last year I found that just trying to 'outplay' my opponent did not work against the smarter players. I really want to be a player that finds a weakness early on and then attacks that one area like flies on stink.

[kevhen]

Focusing on your strengths is good against a higher rated opponent. I used to try overhit against 4.5s and would just make stupid errors. Now I will just try to get the best matchup possible even if it still a losing matchup. For me that is backhand to backhand and I will just try to hit steady and deep and work on those long rallies. I will serve and volley some against better players but only if it is working as well as any thing else would otherwise I then will go back to a bigger first serve and then backhand to backhand baseline. I know I can't hit short or bring my opponent to net as much when I play solid 4.5 players but I don't have to try to rip the cover off the ball either to win points unless I want to lose alot of points in the process.

[moosryan]

this stuff is great, i'd really like to hear some more of what you guys have to say

[vin]

"I think you're a bit too concerned with what's on the other side of the net" - see that is exactly what I am trying to concern myself with to reach the next level of play. I feel that I have strong strokes but I tend to just "bang" during tournaments and coming away feeling like why didn't focus more on what the other player's weakness was. When I stick to strickly getting the ball back deep with pace, the other play tends to get used to it and then I never change my game.

Well, a key point of what I said was to make changes when necessary. You have to be aware of what's going on. Are you winning or losing points and why. If you're losing points, is it because you're not making your shots, or is your opponent to good at dealing with them? Either way, this is the time you might want to consider adjusting your strategy.

If you're losing points and not really catching on to why you are losing them, the match can slip away very fast leaving you to wonder what happened.

Maybe I should take your advice and challenge the forehand crosscourt first because I feel my forehand is very relieable and start off really simply with a plan like that and stick to it if it is working.

The forehand was just an example of what I tend to do. I think the first part of strategy is having a good understanding of your own game. Then when things aren't going your way, you'll be more accurate in assessing what you should do to turn things around.

I really want to be a player that finds a weakness early on and then attacks that one area like flies on stink.
What if the guys weakness is his volley? He can't hit a volley to save his life. But what if you don't have a solid drop shot to draw him in with? Are you going to immediately start the match by trying to draw him in with your unreliable drop shot or are you first going to see if you can beat him with your forehand? See what I'm saying?

I hope this is helpful and I'm not just confusing you. If you think going after a weakness no matter what is the best way for you to play, than stick with it. I'm just trying to give you some ideas.

[FiveO]

Xevious,

Good to form a game plan. And I agree with the adjustments suggested in prior posts. JMHO but you should know what's listed below FIRST. The list (the upper case part) is what I have written down in my bag I take to the courts.

But before making a game plan KNOW the high percentage patterns of play:

1- GET A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF FIRST SERVES IN

2- RETURN CROSSCOURT- SAFEST PLAY

3- RALLY CROSSCOURT from the baseline, its the safest play. Lowest part of the net, longest distance to hit the ball into, and the shortest distance to cover to get back into the center of possible returns your opponent can make. Rally crosscourt when anything BUT offensive. OFFENSE IS WHEN BOTH FEET ARE INSIDE THE BASELINE AND SIDELINE AND CONTACT IS NEAR OR ABOVE THE NET HEIGHT. Being outside the sideline contacting the ball is NOT OFFENSE.

3a- OR UNLESS YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE RALLY TO THE OPPOSITE CROSSCOURT EXCHANGE when rule 3 dictates. *when changing the direction of the rally remember to raise your net clearance even if you loop the ball up the line. A loop is not a push, its STRATEGIC.

4- AT NET GO UP THE LINE OR AT THE WEAKNESS when anything but offensive. OFFENSE AT NET MEANS YOUR INSIDE THE SERVICE LINE AND CONTACTING THE BALL ABOVE THE NET. Only then go crosscourt or opt to the weakness.

5- 5 FEET-as in keep your intended targets inside the baseline and sidelines by 5 feet.


6- DEPTH KILLS when in doubt rally, loop, volley, lob DEEP WHILE STAYING WITHIN THE ABOVE FIVE RULES.

Just executing all your shots, strong and weak, within the above rules will make you a tougher opponent.

Now assess your own game. Assess your own strengths/weaknesses. Ask what shots you can execute 90 percent of the time while STAYING within the RULES. Now assess patterns of play you are most comfortable with and execute best while staying within in the rules. THATS YOUR "A GAME". Now your game plan can be built by say, aiming your stong patterns at your opponent's weaker side.

Stay within the RULES 8 or 9 out of 10 times and change up only 1 or 2 out of ten and you will put the odds of winning in your favor. Be disciplined.

Oh yeah, these basic rules, except for the 5 feet distance and when to go on offense are how the pros play. THE PERCENTAGE PLAYS.

Good luck.

[Xevoius]

I feel like at my current level I have the ability to hit any shot that might be needed to exploit a weakness. I can hit a drop shot, maybe not make points on it but definately not hit it out or in the net. The same goes for lob and underspin and deep shots. This is why I feel I could definately implement some simple strategies that may raise the probablity that I will win the point.

I hear what you saying, basically do what you are good at first and if that does not work, then try some strategies. I guess sometimes I run out on the court and do what I am good at and then there may come a point where my oppenet will start exploiting a hole in my game and before I know it, I am simply trying to keep the damn ball in the court.

Here is an example of my last painful loss.

We start off going toe to toe on groundstrokes. The guy is also 4.5 but he has a 110mph serve. He is able to hold most of his serves which is a problem area that I had to work on and have. Now when every I got the ball back or on my serve and we got into rallies, if it went more than 4 strokes, I would either have pulled him off the court for a winner or he would have just hit an unforced error. This gave me the first set 6-2. Now going into the second set, he realized this and then every fricken time we got into an exchange, before I had the time to set up the point he would drop shot me, I get to the ball and set up to volley and then, boom, he lobs me. I then run down the lob and try and lob him which resulted in a) a 110mph overhead b)the same sequence being started all over again.

See, in the beginning all my approach shots were effective, my serve was effective, my groundstrokes were booming but I was just playing my strengths not thinking about how to better exploit this guy. Meanwhile he concocted a strategy that left me totally spent after the first set and a half and he ended up taking the third set 6-1. My serve went to caca, my groundstrokes were ok if I was lucky enough to get into position and I felt like his drop shots and lobs were getting better and better.

It was horrible. I am just trying to be prepared before I step into a tournament situation like that again. If a player is going to do that to me again, and I am sure they are going to try, I want them to have to try and lob from their backhand and I want to see how they will enjoy the drop shot lob treatment because I have been practicing that one quite a bit on my serve a volley hit partner. ;)

I want to stay really conscious of how the OTHER player is performing given the situation I put them in.

[TommyGun]

you've got quite a collection, but here are some simpler things to try:

1. three or four consistent deep shots to forehand corner, then short ball to backhand side and you come to the net.

2. Keep the ball deep down the middle, then drop shot to the CENTER of the court followed by either lob or you follow to the net.

3. Serve and volley.

[papa]

Although I think it important to write things down as reminders, I don't think this stuff represents a game plan for a specific opponent - it just genereal stuff (good stuff) but things most players have ingrained into their play even at lower levels. How about evaluations of your opponent(s) strong points/weaknesses, court conditions, etc, etc.

[FiveO]

Xevious,

Examine how the worm turned in second and third sets. IMHO what happened to change the match is a symptom rather than the cause. Your opponent was suddenly ABLE to execute what sound like alot of drop shots on you. That indicates that you most likely were allowing him to hit them from inside the baseline and probably off a down the line or middle ball from you. If he was striking the drop shot off your cross-court and from behind the baseline you should have had ample time to close on the net and catch the ball above net height where you can dictate. A deep cross-court rally ball from you off the ground prevents that and all the rest from happening. And I'm not talking about on the baseline depth, your aim point is 5 ft. from the baseline. If he was able to hurt you with a drop hit from behind the baseline consistently you need to work on your shot recognition and foot speed. I guarantee that if you can consistently get the ball cross-court and deep you will draw short balls where you can get both feet inside the baseline from where you can go on offense and more safely, hit down the line, attack and point end from. I don't know if you were hitting more down the line shots than your opponent from behind the baseline, but if you were it makes it easier for your opponent to jerk you out of position with a cross-court, and if you are managing to stay in the point hitting them you are doing twice the mileage as your opponent if he keeps hitting cross-court.

[tykrum]

I'm also a 4.5 counterpuncher, and I just find that getting the ball in play no matter what is a simple but effective thing to think about. Many times, players I play try to rip winners when they are off the court or on their back foot, when they really could just try to get it back somewhere past the service line and get back in the court. This is where loopy shots like FiveO was saying are important. A high first serve percentage is key, and placement on your serve is also very important. Jamming body serves are always a forgotten effective tactic, and if you mix up your serve locations and spins consciously, your opponent will probably be thrown off. Probably the most important part of my game is that I try not to give players the same ball twice, I move it around the court and hit combinations of loopy shots and drives. This helps to keep my opponent from cracking winners all day, because I don't hit it soft, but I'm not a huge guy either. Most off all though, I just try to keep an even keel and have confidence in my game. I used to get thrown off by playing against decent players (players about my playing level), and now I know I can beat them with my game plan.

[Xevoius]

"I used to get thrown off by playing against decent players (players about my playing level)" - I prefer to play players that are at my level or slightly above. I seem to be able to keep my attention on the point better. What throws me is slower pace and weak serves. I guess I have to work a pusher into my hit schedule to counter this.

And, I probably should not eat an entire order of Texas Egg Rolls 5 days prior to my match. It's no wonder why I am vonerable to drop and lob tactics.

[Scheiner]

I have done this at my club 20 times today.

1) Flat serve to guy's forehand.
2) Pysche him out by fake running to the net.
3) Since most of them hit lobs, easy winner.

I think I am a 4.5 but I am not sure anymore, because it seems that I have met people who have played for 4-5 years and I am suddenly getting better than them.

[Xevoius]

The 5.0 players and above make me regret it every time I hit a hard flat one that does not have great placement on thier forehand side. They know how to take it early and I find the ball deep in my court before my follow through on my serve has completed.

I have countered with with a kickserve I have really been working on for a few months now. They do not seem to be able to tee off on this at all and it has been a life saver. I only throw in a flatty to mix things up when I play them.

[FiveO]

Papa,

I agree with you. Game plans are intended to allow you to attack your opponent's weakness with your strength as often as possible and to deny the reverse. Being an all-courter, s & v, s & fh banger, counter-puncher or retriever at any level is a game style, not a game plan. Each of them can attack an opponent's weaker bh but go about it in a different way. How they combine there shots in repeatable RELIABLE patterns when serving and returning to exploit an opponent's weakness constitutes a game plan. It isn't that a devout counter-puncher suddenly does something called s & v mid-match.

A counter-puncher realizes during the match that his opponent is able to out-rally him in cross-court exchanges with what was supposed to be a weaker 2 hander. But the counter puncher still suspects his opponent won't hit it well on the run to that side. He stops trying to attack the vulnerable 2 hander immediately w/ his serve. He elects to de-emphasizes his effective topspin serve up the T in the deuce court because the counter puncher now believes he can't move the 2 hander enough from the middle of the court to the bh corner to force an error consistently. He doesn't abandon his game and go to an unfamiliar S & V game. He doesn't change his Game Plan of breaking down that bh. He changes tactics and begins to slice his first serves wide in the deuce court even though its perceived to be a stronger shot to try to and draw a shorter ball he can drive wide into the open corner to get that 2 hander on the run. Getting to the bh is the Game Plan. The patterns are tactics. Multiple patterns to get to that 2 hander are used to get to that bh.

But a GAME PLAN is predicated on whether a player can repeatedly and reliably execute the shots in a familiar pattern. The shots chosen in the pattern themselves have to be high percentage. In this scenario the player must have a reliable slice serve to the deuce court and then play a high percentage groundie into the open corner. If the 2 handed returner nails the ball deep cross-court to the server's fh, the percentage play is NOT to blast the ball down the line or attempt a drop shot if caught behind the baseline. The percentage play is to rally the ball deep back to the opponent's fh in hope of getting a shorter ball that maybe he can hit a short angle cross court off of to pull the opponent off the court and then play the next short ball into the suspect 2 hander bh corner. Either shot would be a viable choice if the same return came cross court but short allowing the counter puncher to step inside the baseline. That's why knowledge of the percentage plays is essential to game plan.

First you have to identify what the opponent's weakness is. Then you have to set out to attack it systematically. But if can't repeatedly execute the shots that get you there you can't create reliable patterns. If you don't recognize what the percentage shot choice is while executing the pattern you defeat the purpose of the pattern. W/O reliable patterns there is no game plan.

[Xevoius]

I am curious what video or book you have used to come up with your "pattern" style play. I know a little bit about what high percentage play is but I would like to know more.

The forehand to forehand exchange is something I am usually just not fond of. Maybe it is because I often play someone with a huge forehand or because my down the line shot is very consistent. When someone gives me a crosscourt setup to my forehand, it seems like an invitation to dictate the point.

Sometimes I think that on paper a shot may seem to be higher percentage but it really depends on the player's ability to make the shot and therefore you cannot just say the crosscourt forehand is really going to be higher percentage.

[vin]

I know a little bit about what high percentage play is but I would like to know more.


Wardlaw's Directionals!

Get Pressure Tennis by Paul Wardlaw and/or Coaching Tennis by Chuck Kriese.

[Bungalo Bill]

So I need some help with basic strategies. Here my current list of things I am going to try to implement from now on when playing in 4.5 tournaments. I am going to literally bring a piece of paper with this stuff written on it to the match so that I do not forget what I am doing.

1) Hit to backhand repeatedly, see if they can prove they can keep the ball in on that side - try both high bounching topspin and deep flat strokes while testing

2) Check if they can keep longer 5+ stroke rallies going and remember to only hit at 3/4 percent and throw in some underspin every 3rd or so shot - basically counterpunch (my style) and make them go for the winner

3)Throw in the short/paceless ball to see if they can volley, also use lob repeatedly to see if they have the desire to get to the ball

4)Murder all short balls, even if that is all they hit - DO NOT get caught in the dink placement game, this is CERTAIN DEATH

5)Try using a deep underspin approach shot to thier backhand side so that they are pressured to hit a passing shot or lob and so that they get a good look at me charging the net before they have to make the play

6)My backhand side is not a weapon so I must only try to consistenly get it back over the net which means I will need to slice if I am not in a great position to drive it - DO NOT try to hit winners from this side during rallies

7)If I am getting wiped off the court, slow the whole game down to try and not let the other player feel like they are dictating play by taking more time in changeovers and between serves - bring towel to back of court to wipe down between points

When serving and returning serve...

1)High kicker to their backhand, if they seem like they are getting it back consistently, follow it in for volley (could be questionable since my volleys are not my strongest point, however, they may react poorly to the pressure of the net charge when returning serve)

2)Try to get free points by hitting flat serves up the middle - must have kicker feeling consistent before I start this one

3)Hit backhand kicker returns with a low to the net underspin stroke - DO NOT try and go over these balls

Can you think of anything else I might want to try on a 4.5 player? It seems that often the winner at the 4.5 level is the player who is better at the "keep it in game" and not many players are using any strategies. Now when stepping into the 5.0+ level, this seems to change as everyone has an outstanding "keep it in" game and you are forced to go for winners. They also seem to know exactly how to peck and peck at my weaknesses.

~Cheers

I think you're going to be hard pressed to remember all of this during a match when the heat is on. Most of the time people fall back on their "old ways" and what is comfortable. For me this is too much to remember and as the point is in progress it is very difficult to remember your tactics that are on paper.

A game plan consists of understanding your strengths and weaknesses and your opponents strengths and weaknesses. Then you analyze which area is stronger then your opponents. For example, you may have a strong forehand but your opponents forehand is HUGE. You do not want to go forehand to forehand otherwise you risk getting into trouble quickly.

The other thing to analyze is the weak side. Both players have weaknesses and you need to see if your weakness can beat his weakness. For example, in one of the numbered items you mentioned above was to be consistant with your backhand. If you can be more consistant on your backhand side then your opponent, you will rack up a lot of points on that exchange.

If your strengths and weaknesses dont match up to his strengths and weaknesses, you dont match up well and the odds are you will lose. You can hear this in sports commentators often when someone or a team "doesn't match up on paper." So, in this case you have to turn to the intangibles like the mind, will power, heart, desire, being hungrier, etc...

Tennis is about exchanges. You exchange one shot for his shot. You determine whether it is a good deal to continue exchanging that way. If not, you need to figure out how to get the ball to the side of the court for a different exchange you can win points from.

You mentioned to hit a high backhand to see if he can handle it. Excellent! If he doesn't that is a good deal. Keep making the exchange until he can hit it back.

Obviously, you need to go after the backhand. The backhand is the single most dominant weakness known to tennis and at the club level it is a given strategic matchup if your backhand is stronger even though it is the weakest of all your shots.

The other thing that will help you win is to recognize the ball you hit and what it is doing to your opponent BEFORE he hits it. In other words, DONT ADMIRE YOUR SHOTS. THINK!

A lot of times a player hits this great forehand and sees his opponent desperately make this outstretch stab for the ball. This player watches in amazement and says to himself "Is he going to get it? No way is he going to get it, wow, he might get it, oh #&*$, he got a racquet on it, it looks like that might make it over the net, it IS coming over the net, oh man, I got to RUN!!!!!!, oh man, i lost the point, what a lucky son of a $^$%^".

Be aware of what your ball is doing. If you see your opponent running and will most likely hit a one segment shot, step into the court and take the offense. Chances are it will be a short ball and you will hit the short ball at optimal hieght.

Finally, you have to know that your opponent is doing the same thing. He he has that HUGE forehand, he is going to do everything he can to hit a lot of forehands. This is why you have to focus and play every point like it is your last ppoint. Thus, lies the struggle and the chess like warfare of tennis!

[kevhen]

The backhand is the single most dominant weakness in tennis??? I have seen many players with awesome backhands, especially many of the women I have played who can hit with some power and excellent placement and are very consistent with the 2 hander.

I would agree though that I tend to attack my opponent's backhands and that is how I got from 3.5 to 4.0 pinning the ball to my opponentss backhand side. But to get to 4.5 you definitely need to move the ball around. Many 4.0s have big forehands but still often are inconsistent forehands so I will attack the big but less consistent forehand as many players have more consistent backhands even if they aren't as big.

I would say the volley is the biggest weakness in modern day tennis at all levels, not the backhand.

[Xevoius]

Thanks for your "Hall of fame" perspective Bungalo Bill. :)

Allways interesting...

[Kaptain Karl]

Xevious - I like the tips you've already received. Some of this post may be a rephrasing from above posts, but it's "my 2¢."

A "game plan" is NOT merely what your game allows you to do. A game plan is the strategy you employ against a particular opponent. At the 4.5 level you should be able to employ more than one strategy to beat a guy.

I "game plan" every player I meet ... or *might meet.* I keep a half-size spiral notebook in my bag, and my "A," "B" (and sometimes, "C") strategy is indicated for them.

Study your opponents ... and your potential opponents. Know what you would do to beat them. [Note: Don't try to do what "Joe" does to beat them. Joe's game is different from yours. Know what you can do to win.]

[For instance, as an "attacking all-courter" my preferred Serving play is S&V. One guy I know I will meet at least twice this summer, is even better at the chip & charge Return than my (very good) Serve -- a predicament I rarely encounter. The good news is, he's short and knows I can out-hit and outrun him. I need to stay back on my serve and make him *work* (more than he would if I play S&V). On Receive ... he S&V's me about 70% of the time (because he doesn't want to get into long exchanges with me) and has a suprisingly easy time with crosscourt returns. I have a specific game plan for “John”.

Oh yeah. And my game plan is short declaratives which remind me of the whole strategy. (Not that long list of reminders like in your OP.) And I have "A" "B" and "C" plans for John. If "A" isn't working, I'll change....]

Write it down. Study it before you play "X" player. Review it on the odd game changes, to be sure you are "on" your strategy. Win more matches....

- KK

[Bungalo Bill]

The backhand is the single most dominant weakness in tennis??? I have seen many players with awesome backhands, especially many of the women I have played who can hit with some power and excellent placement and are very consistent with the 2 hander.

I would agree though that I tend to attack my opponent's backhands and that is how I got from 3.5 to 4.0 pinning the ball to my opponentss backhand side. But to get to 4.5 you definitely need to move the ball around. Many 4.0s have big forehands but still often are inconsistent forehands so I will attack the big but less consistent forehand as many players have more consistent backhands even if they aren't as big.

I would say the volley is the biggest weakness in modern day tennis at all levels, not the backhand.

Kevhen, are we going to digress into something that is well known? Is this something that is well known but difficult to understand? The backhand is hit from the weaker side of the body for the majority of tennis players out there. There will be those that have a stronger backhand side but it is not the majority. There will be players that have a good backhand but compared to their level and their forehand it is still the weaker of the two.

If you agree that you tend to attack your opponents backhand - stop and ask yourself why. Otherwise, please just listen and learn.

[Scheiner]

Its so fun to play in High School tennis because most players are two types from those that I play: Boomer and Retriever, which ironically is also noted by Tennis at About.com. Here is the article:

http://tennis.about.com/od/forjuniors/a/boyshighschool.htm

[kevhen]

I don't see it as the single most dominate weakness like you do. At the beginner level the backhand is definitely a weakness but as you move up the backhand catches up and often becomes more steady and the ball can be better placed while using 2 hands on the racquet for more control. At the pro level, the men often have amazing forehands but some men have great backhands too and the pro women as a group might even have better and more consistent backhands than forehands. To say the backhand is the most DOMINANT weakness in tennis seems like a false statement to me. Sorry for not listening and not learning.

Do Federer, Henin, Agassi, the Williams' sisters, etc. have weak backhands? You don't just win with a serve and a forehand although it doesn't hurt to have those.

[Kaptain Karl]

kevhen - BB is generalizing ... and he's correct. You are trying to generalize from some few "specifics" you note. Doesn't work....

(Have you noticed how many 2HBH Pros are *adding* the one-handed slice to their repertiore? Could it be that they are becoming aware of the *limitation* of the 2HBH? And if it's a "limitation" it just might be a ... weakness. Hmmm....)

- KK

[papa]

Of course BB is correct - no question about it. We're talking about the 4.5 level here and not the professional level. I also think we're getting apples and oranges mixed up.

[Bungalo Bill]

I don't see it as the single most dominate weakness like you do. At the beginner level the backhand is definitely a weakness but as you move up the backhand catches up and often becomes more steady and the ball can be better placed while using 2 hands on the racquet for more control. At the pro level, the men often have amazing forehands but some men have great backhands too and the pro women as a group might even have better and more consistent backhands than forehands. To say the backhand is the most DOMINANT weakness in tennis seems like a false statement to me. Sorry for not listening and not learning.

Do Federer, Henin, Agassi, the Williams' sisters, etc. have weak backhands? You don't just win with a serve and a forehand although it doesn't hurt to have those.

Well Kevhen, would it be more beneficial and easier for you to understand if I used the term "usually" or "chances are" or "for the most part".

Do you get the concept of what a strategic matchup is????? Should I list out the pros that have good backhands but at their level it is the stroke to attack? Should we mention Roddick just for starters? Did you include all the other pros on tour including the satellite tournaments?

Are you comparing a professional backhand to a 3.0 backhand and thinking that is what I mean? If we took that out to a logical conclusion that wouldnt be a good strategic matchup now would it.

[takeuchi]

Just as the saying goes...."you're only as strong as your weakest link"

[Xevoius]

Ok folks, here is how I won a set tonight against the 4.5 - 5.0 player that won the 4.5 tournament I will be playing in this weekend and who I have lost to probably 5 consecutive times prior to this match...

When we warmed up I gave him nothing to evaluate, not a thing I just tried to hit clean shots that were mostly to his forehand. I gave him a few to his backhand so he would not get suspicious but mainly let him warm up his forehand. He was pretty happy that he was able to rip a bunch off my shot during warm up so I think he was prematuraly ready to get it started.

I made sure to start my practice serves FIRST so that I at least had his last set of practice serves to practice MY return of serve (putting the second part of my strategy into play he he).

He won the first serve decision and gave me a serve just like I was able to practice 4 return of serves on prior to and I ripped a return right off the bat that caused a forced error, that seemed to make him take a long look at me and probably changed his mind about how the match might play out.

This guy has the absolute best return of serve, but only if it is a hard flat serve. I have spent months on my kickserve now and it was time to lay it on him. I started hitting all my first serves as slow paced kickers to his forehand. He absolutely hated it. He kept taking huge swings at the ball and it he kept framing it and hitting it long.

Normally I would have done this until I felt my second was totally reliable and it was time to break out the hard flat first serve, however, I noticed that a pattern emerged that if I simply hit the kicker to his backhand every now and then to mix it up, I only needed to put in enough energy to get a nice kick second serve in and the percentage was playing out in my favor.

He started connecting on his hard first serve and was able to hold twice but that was it. That was the only games he held.

He did try the crosscourt exchange from backhand to backhand on me but while keeping focus, I was able to get almost all of my backhand exchanges in trying NOT to go for winners. I think this and the fact that I did not go big on my serve because there was no need made a huge difference on my probability for a win.

I did not feel winded at all after the set.

We played two other groundstoke drill games and then called it a night. I got both of those too. Woo hoo!

[Bungalo Bill]

...He did try the crosscourt exchange from backhand to backhand on me but while keeping focus, I was able to get almost all of my backhand exchanges in trying NOT to go for winners. I think this and the fact that I did not go big on my serve because there was no need made a huge difference on my probability for a win...

Excellent.

And focused you were! Most players have know clue what is happening, they are too rapped up in their own mind and fail to take into account what the other player is doing!

You read the exchange he wanted and you defended the exchange. You made that exchange worthless to him. Sounds like he was trying to find an exchange he could rack up some points on - but couldn't.

You can see Roddick do the same. When the other player believes he can beat Roddick going backhand to backhand, Roddick gets into a "defend" mode. Unless of course the opponent makes a mistake, then Roddick can take care of it from his backhand side. But for the most part, Roddick will defend like you did and try and work the point so he can move the ball for a different exchange or strategic matchup!

Excellent.

[HookEmJeff]

I don't think I'd write off "3) Hit backhand kicker returns with a low to the net underspin stroke - DO NOT try and go over these balls"

If I saw someone doing this (not going over the ball), I'd be into the net off of every backhand return, especially if I can get it out wide AND high. That's a sitter volley.
I killed a guy with that same shot tonight in my league. He was a lefty, and he was hitting every forehand up near his eyes. He resorted to chipping them, and I started getting easy volleys to angle away, or, at the very least, a short reply....which I'd promptly tee off on and run him to the other corner.
Gotta mix up that return. I would either try to take it on the rise or, stand back and let the bounce come out of it. If your oppnent has the wide kicker, you better stand in and learn to take it early.
If you're going exclusively to slice, either go up the line or angle it out wide inside out. Unless you are hitting with a lot of bite - which is hard to do off a fast serve and high kickers unless you're tall...because it's hard to be offensive on a return that way, especially off a fast serve. I'd say that's a putaway volley most of the time if a guy is coming in. At the very least, it's a chance for him to be offensive. Don't give up trying to go over the ball unless your backhand is really that weak.

Jeff

[HookEmJeff]

Other than that, I like your list. It's always a lot harder to stick to a list when your opponent is making mincemeat of you and Plans 1-22. That's why you need to work on developing your strengths so that they are good enough to win points off of most anybody, at least a few times a match.

jeff

[Xevoius]

I hear ya about the float return that sets up for an easy volley. I usually set up well inside the baseline for this underspin backhand return off the kicker serve to the addcourt and make it a shot that the server has to scrape off the ground if they are charging to the net. There is no floating about it. I get a pretty good cut on the ball with my racquet face just about flat when I strike it.

[kevhen]

Do you think academies like Bolleterri's that emphasize developing the forehand as a major weapon, believe that the backhand will always be inferior? Even Roddick's backhand has been improving as I sure he has been working on that to not have such a glaring weakness. But I do see that at the pro level you do need a major weapon and usually the forehand becomes that major weapon, especially on the men's side. But at almost all levels, the forehand is probably the stronger side for like 70% of the players, but still maybe 30% of players have a better backhand than forehand, likely from practicing it more. Those with the stronger forehand probably practice it more including starting all rally balls on the forehand side. Just like the volley being a glaring weakness for many, the backhand may be a weakness as well just from not practicing it as much as other shots. Do you run around your backhand or do you work on improving it?

[papa]

Keven, if you had to hit someone do you think you could enflict more harm with a backhand slap or a forehand punch? Incidently, what percentage of shots do you think are hit with the forehand vs backhand at the 4 - 4.5 level? I don't think 30% of players have a better backhand either - probably more like 5 or 10 percent at best.

Also, running around a backhand shot and taking it on the forehand side can be a very effective shot that people SHOULD practice.

[Xevoius]

"running around a backhand shot and taking it on the forehand side can be a very effective shot that people SHOULD practice"

I feel that time would be better spent practicing getting more comfortable simply hitting a backhand. I find the energy saved from scrambling to hit the better shot pays off when I am forced to run to a drop shot or something similar that requires total exertion.

[kevhen]

I play against a few people who will run around there backhand and they do have great forehands like 4.5 level but are still 4.0 due to weaker backhand and weaker serves. I don't like it when they get in control of the point and I can't hit the ball back deep and hard enough to force them to hit with there backhand or wide enough to stretch out their forehand. This is maybe 10-20% of players at my level though that will run around and hit forehands because their forehand is a level higher than their backhand. There are plenty of players with bigger forehands but not necessarily better or more consistent forehands though and then their are a group who do have more consistent and better placed backhands where I will end up attacking their forehand side instead of going at the backhand like I have taught myself to do. At the 3.5 level a higher percentage of players had weaker backhands than at the 4.0 or 4.5 levels.

[Bungalo Bill]

Keven, if you had to hit someone do you think you could enflict more harm with a backhand slap or a forehand punch? Incidently, what percentage of shots do you think are hit with the forehand vs backhand at the 4 - 4.5 level? I don't think 30% of players have a better backhand either - probably more like 5 or 10 percent at best.

Also, running around a backhand shot and taking it on the forehand side can be a very effective shot that people SHOULD practice.

LOL, Papa I would leave this one alone. You know the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink." ;)

[Kaptain Karl]

... but still maybe 30% of players have a better backhand than forehand, likely from practicing it more.
Man! You are stubborn ... and in a dream world.

- KK

[papa]

I didn't mean to suggest, by any means, that one should run around EVERY backhand. Just think it can be a very effective shot at times and should be practiced keeping in mind the TOPIC title.

As suggested, I'll fold my tent and leave everything else alone on this discussion because its going nowhere fast.

[Xevoius]

Ok, folks.

I made it past day one (two matches won today). I am in the semi's tomorrow and I used some of the strategies in this thread. I really only used a couple but I will probably write up a short summary of my matches after the tournament is over. I have to play the guy who won last year first thing tomorrow morning.

I am so stoked, this is the farthest I have ever made it in any tournament, ever.

[Kaptain Karl]

Cool! Good luck.

- KK

[Xevoius]

Made it to the finals and played the match in a coluseum style court with stands surrounding the court. Unfortunately I totally ran out of gas and lost the match.

It was fun. I should probably have a strategy summary up sometime in the next couple of days. Time to drink water and veg out on the couch.

I am so freakin tired...

[kevhen]

How did your tournament match go?

I played a guy last night with a great forehand, so it was his forehand vs my serve and we were 2-2 going into the match with me winning the first and last time we had played. We started off holding serve the first 11 games with him ripping forehand winners and me jamming him with heavy slice serves. Finally I broke to win the set 7-5. In the second set he broke me twice and took a 4-0 lead. I decided to start serving more flat serves as he was on to my spin. Also while returning I decided to back up a step behind the baseline and try to return every ball to his backhand side. I tried to hit all groundstrokes to his backhand side as well. He would hit some backhands back but if he could he would run around it but his forehand wasn't as consistent when he ran around his backhand. I got the scored to 4-3 but then he held at 5-3 but then I rallied again and won the set 7-5. His one hand backhand weakness and failure to capitalize on the inside out forehands cost him. It was a nice match though and we both enjoyed it. He is a solid-strong 4.0 on this fast surface. He needs a better backhand to get to the next level.

[Kaptain Karl]

X - That's great! You established new "Personal Bests" two days in a row. Semis for first time ... Finals too. Way to go! Now you must be perceived as a "Force to be reckoned with." Congrats!!!

- KK

[FiveO]

Cool. Taking home metal. How nice a feeling is that? Congratulations. When you rest up and come down from the high, don't forget to take some time to let us know what you learned.
Again, Congratulations.

[maverick1]

This is a very instructive thread. Thanks KK, for referencing it elsewhere. I am making a token post to draw attention of other newer readers who could benefit.

[Xevoius]

So, I have recently relocated to Texas and have been now able to get on the court almost daily.

I have a tournament coming up this weekend and I am trying to make move into the 5.0 arena.

I will see if I can come up with a 5.0 gameplan write-up before Friday night so I can get some feedback.

My draw was already posted and I have a bye first round.

Yay.

I have been basically using all the tactics that I posted at the beginning of this thread with decent results. I now have some new abilities to add to my 5.0 summary that I am hoping to employ in my next match.

~Cheers

[Xevoius]

Btw, my tournament summary for using the 4.5 strategies I posted is posted here.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=44000&highlight=4.5

[Winners or Errors]

The 5.0 players and above make me regret it every time I hit a hard flat one that does not have great placement on thier forehand side. They know how to take it early and I find the ball deep in my court before my follow through on my serve has completed.

I have countered with with a kickserve I have really been working on for a few months now. They do not seem to be able to tee off on this at all and it has been a life saver. I only throw in a flatty to mix things up when I play them.

Yup. Flat serve = easy return. My first serve even has spin on it just because of that. I may hit fewer aces, but I get a lot more return errors than when I pound a flat serve and it's just a bit off line. If you hit through the ball, you can hit an effective spin first serve. My second serve has a lot of spin on it. Action.

[Winners or Errors]

This is a very instructive thread. Thanks KK, for referencing it elsewhere. I am making a token post to draw attention of other newer readers who could benefit.

I agree. This is great stuff. I just started getting back into the game in July, and have been playing nothing but doubles, but am looking to move to one singles match a week. Great ideas on strategies when out there on the singles court.

[jrod]

This is an incredibly insightful thread...many thanks to X, 5-0 and BB for the great tips.

[smoothtennis]

Thanks for reviving this one guys - Some excellent insight in here. I see the OP moved to Texas - would be great to hear how he has done at 5.0 since this original post.

[Ballinbob]

I know that your tournament is over and everything (gratz btw) but I got some tips that work at the 4.0 level.

Mix it up. Don't let your opponent get into a rhythm. Mix short angles with deep topspin shots, do a drop shot on a short ball, do some S&V to keep your oppoent guessing. I know its simple, but this strategy gets overlooked alot. Try not to be repetitive and keep hitting to his backhand ect. Even if your volleys arent your strong point, you'll likely get a return error b/c he doesnt know how to react to that. And even if you loose the point, at least you give your opponent something to think about. I always try and do this with my S&V style of play. Mix up my spins on serves and bomb flat serves every here and there. I hit angle volleys, deep punch volleys, go cc and dtl. I never let my opponent where I'm going to go, and this usually leaves them clueless on the court.

My 2 cents