PDA

View Full Version : Your assignment: Compare/contrast these post match comments


Rabbit
03-01-2005, 05:31 AM
Farina Elia beat Venus Williams in the first round of the Dubai Open. Here are the post match comments from both players:


"It would normally have been a quick match," she said. "She really doesn't have the weapons to hurt me. The blister was really a factor. I just couldn't serve well and I just couldn't keep the balls in."


Williams rallied from 4-1 down to 5-5 before dropping the first set. She climbed back from a 5-2 deficit in the second set to force a tiebreaker in which she saved seven match points before losing.


Williams realized she was in trouble when she saw her serve clocked at about 72 mph.


"I said, 'Jeez what am I doing here?"' she said. "So that was the humor of it out there for me."

Farina Elia was weary by the last set.


"I thought the match would never finish," she said. "She fought back brilliantly. But I was a little tired toward the end of the second set. I am proud because this is the first time I beat her."

tennis-n-sc
03-01-2005, 06:22 AM
I commented earlier on this in another thread. IMO it shows the continued inability of the Williams sisters to show any respect for opponents. I thought Venus was coming out of this but I guess not. Venus would beat this girl 9 out of 10 times, if not more. But, damn girl, show a little humility, in victory and defeat. This is, in my opinion, why they don't receive the adoring fan base their talent should earn for them. Comments like this does not make them very likable to the average fan. It has nothing to with race.

norcal
03-01-2005, 06:59 AM
Not to defend the Williams' continual excuse making BUT I think it is natural for lower ranked players to be more humble and complimentary when they lose cause they do a lot of it (lose). Those who don't lose a lot and have been the best in the past have a harder time being humble.

Yes, the Williams' should be more humble but if they were we would just call them out for false humility.

Been reading Fed's comments lately? Not a lot of humility there. And he brings up a hurt foot when talking about the Safin loss. Not claiming Rog is a miscreant, however if Ser or Ven said what he has been saying lately they would be getting 10 page hate threads here (oh wait they already have those).

Rabbit
03-01-2005, 07:57 AM
I don't know, Roddick and Agassi have been doing an exemplary job of just admitting that they got that *** whupped. While Federer, and his girlfriend as much as said so, may be reading his press clippings a little too closely, the rest of the girls and boys don't seem to have a problem giving props to their opponents with the notable exception being Greg Rusedski.

Rusedski said at the last Open Sampras played that "Sampras had lost a step and was beatable."
After beating Rusedski, Sampras was asked about the quote and replied "Who?". That's the kind of personality that tennis needs. But, it was in direct reply to Rusedski's not being very humble. Had Rusedski shown proper consideration, Sampras may well have evaluated the statement and given proper comment. (Or maybe not.)

Camilio Pascual
03-01-2005, 08:01 AM
It all sounds pretty mundane and typical.
Venus - Sounds like accurate comments, I have trouble believing Elia is likely to beat Venus unless Venus is a little off. I'm assuming the 72mph comment is a "cue" from you, Rabbit, to explain the last comment? If so, it sounds like self deprecating humour.
Farina - I believe her comment about being a little tired near the end of the 2nd set. She must have been to let somebody she is beating and serving at only 72mph back into the match.

Rabbit
03-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Actually the line about her being tired was from the writer of the article. And yes, for edification's sake.

Colpo
03-01-2005, 08:11 AM
What's really weird for me about the Williams's continued self-aggrandizing tendency is their stubbornness. They've heard these criticisms about their lack of respect for years. These criticisms would stop immediately if they would just pay more lip service to saying the "right" things (they wouldn't even have to mean it - they could just say it). And yet, we hear more and more about how they always judge themselves against their opponents based upon what would've happened if they'd played up to their Platonic ideal.

I know this argument opens the door to their fans claiming that this is actually a positive, that they're just being honest about how they feel. But that's a two-edged sword: if that's them being honest, get over yourselves. A white lie here and there is part of the fabric of a little concept called S-O-C-I-E-T-Y.

Happily, it's probably fair to say that the rest of the WTA couldn't give a poop about what the Williams' (or a Capriati or a Hingis) say after a loss - the win provides satisfaction enough.

Rabbit
03-01-2005, 09:04 AM
Actually though is it honest to always chalk up a loss to something that you did? I think that's where the claims of being disingenuous come in. They never say that so and so was just plain too good. It's always they're less than some percentage or they didn't do or they shoulda...

Colpo
03-01-2005, 10:42 AM
It's not honest in any absolute sense, but it's clearly what they're thinking when those things get said. To that extent, they're honestly saying what they think is true, which you or I may disagree with. They're good enough players that sometimes when they lose, it IS because their game was off. It's just so much easier to let it go and give some credit to your opponent and move on to something else.

Then again, who's to say that a little bit of this kind of attitude isn't a by-product of what it takes to be no. 1? It's unpleasant to listen to, but we're hearing it through our own ears, and not the ears of somebody who's scaled those heights.

Datacipher
03-01-2005, 12:59 PM
What's really weird for me about the Williams's continued self-aggrandizing tendency is their stubbornness. They've heard these criticisms about their lack of respect for years. These criticisms would stop immediately if they would just pay more lip service to saying the "right" things (they wouldn't even have to mean it - they could just say it). And yet, we hear more and more about how they always judge themselves against their opponents based upon what would've happened if they'd played up to their Platonic ideal.

I know this argument opens the door to their fans claiming that this is actually a positive, that they're just being honest about how they feel. But that's a two-edged sword: if that's them being honest, get over yourselves. A white lie here and there is part of the fabric of a little concept called S-O-C-I-E-T-Y.
.

Sure you could call it honest Colpo...honestly showing they're jerks! lol

No, in all seriousness, while I agree with you that a little white lie in the context of giving public respect to your opponent is a good thing and part of being a good sport, you don't even have to GO THAT FAR!

If you want you can just say things like "well she played the better tennis today and deserved to win." Which is undeniably true. If secretly you think that was because you played terrible tennis, fine, keep it to yourself and your friends. There are a ton of things they could say, in a nice way. Other good sports will say things like (and still give honest insight) "well, my opponent played well and I was really disappointed with my serve today....the percentage was low...my toss was a bit wonky....I'll need to work on that...etc etc etc" The Williams seem to go out of their way to point out how this was a fluke and they played at such a tiny capacity of their normal game....it's almost comical insecurity/arrogance.

nkhera1
03-01-2005, 04:10 PM
This is why I have little respect for the Williams sisters. Venus needs to realize she is not a top 5 player anymore and that she will need to work her butt of to be great again. I think they are taking it easy and its coming back to haunt them (can't verify it, but its my feeling). Everyone else has gotten better, so she needs to as well. Also its not like Farina Elia is a horrible player she is in the top 25 and she is pretty fit so I'm not quite sure about those comments. However, as someone pointed out this is no different than Federer complaining about his foot/elbow/hand/knee/ear/whatever. Key thing is the better player on that day always wins.

Metzler
03-01-2005, 07:22 PM
The Aussies of the '60's said it best, "If you're not fit, default. If you go on court, you're 100%"
In any sport, there are a variety of maladies that bother athletes through the long season and only a self-centered moron thinks they're the only one having problems. It's a waste of time to listen to the Williams' sisters excuses, they're probably as much psychological defense mechanisms for their inadequate personalities as they are lack of grace and honesty.

Deuce
03-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Well said, Metzler.

I'm just waiting for one of the reporters/journalists to have enough balls to simply say, during a post-match interview "Come on, Venus (or Serena) - it was obvious that (insert winner's name here) outplayed you today. She was simply better. Why is that so bloody impossible for you to accept?"

Good role models? Not by a long shot. While the typical posters continue to desperately come up with excuses for their arrogant behavior, I believe it's safe - and most accurate - to say that one cannot possibly be considered a good role model when one does not possess an ounce of genuine humility.

Camilio - I find it quite inconsistent of you to both claim to be a fan of good sportsmanship and to so persistently defend every arrogant and disrespectful action that Venus and Serena engage in. You were very quick to condemn (and still continue to condemn) Henin for her bad sportsmanship 'hand display' (which, not co-incidentally, occurred during a match against Serena). But you are always bending over backwards to defend the poor sportsmanship of Venus and Serena - of which there are many more examples than there are of Henin's poor sportsmanship.

As I've written previously, on just about every other subject which has surfaced on these boards, Camilio, whether I've agreed or disagreed with you, you've shown yourself to be fair, objective, intelligent and insightful. But when it comes to the Williams sisters, your perspective narrows incredibly, and pulls greatly to one side. Although I'm used to it by now, it still surprises me every time, as I feel that you're simply too intelligent to not see the blatant truth of the matter.

Camilio Pascual
03-02-2005, 04:15 AM
Deuce - It makes a difference to me whether this sportsmanship is on court where it really matters to the outcome of the match or in the press box where it doesn't. Henin's "Greasy Hand" incident is something that merits a lot of criticism and I laud Mary Jo Fernandez, Jim Courier, Luke Jensen (THE HAND!!!), and others for their on camera comments about it and using the term "greasy" to describe it. That bad sportsmanship by Henin would have been cheating in the amateur ranks. How post-match comments by Venus, particularly the ones in question today, even compare to that is beyond me.

spam
03-02-2005, 04:37 AM
If I was Venus' adviser I'd tell her to give the credit to her opposition ,smile sweetly and then decide whether she wants to sh** or get off the pot.If she wants to continue,the wisest thing would be to shut up,train her *** off and prove to the world that when she's on top of her game she's the best in the world and unfortunately that means hard work and crushing little sister,which I believe she could do if she rediscovers her love for the game and her killer instinct.

Rabbit
03-02-2005, 05:38 AM
Spam got it right. Whether you like the Williams or not, the simple fact is they have not dedicated themselves to their profession like their contemporaries. Both girls need to decide if they want to be professional tennis players or actors or designers, or whatever. I think if they opt for something other than tennis, they're going to learn a lesson all working people learn. You may enjoy it, but it won't necessarily pay the bills.

They had also better start looking at the Russian contingent, because they are fixing to completely eclipse the Williams and the Belgians and every one else on the WTA.

Camilio Pascual
03-02-2005, 05:56 AM
If I was Venus' adviser I'd tell her to give the credit to her opposition ,smile sweetly and then decide whether she wants to sh** or get off the pot.If she wants to continue,the wisest thing would be to shut up,train her *** off and prove to the world that when she's on top of her game she's the best in the world and unfortunately that means hard work and crushing little sister,which I believe she could do if she rediscovers her love for the game and her killer instinct.

Agreed, that would be good advice.

baseliner
03-02-2005, 06:21 AM
The sister's inability to credit their opponent after a loss comes from their nutty father. he ingrained them with the idea it was them against the world. As athletes they have achieved, as sportsmen (sprotswomen?) they have been found to be sadly lacking. With their constant blather of how tennis is so unimportant to them, such a small part of theri lives, they are really fashion designers and actresses, ... the public quickly tires. Without tennis, no one would be interested in their fashion designs or offer them acting opportunities. Venus has won her last grand slam. Serena can win more but her split focus lessens her chances of achievement on the court.

Gugafan_Redux
03-02-2005, 10:47 AM
As far as the inability of both Williams to credit their opponents, I say where did they learn everything they know about the game?

http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0329/photo/a_williams_i.jpg

Deuce
03-02-2005, 10:45 PM
Deuce - It makes a difference to me whether this sportsmanship is on court where it really matters to the outcome of the match or in the press box where it doesn't. Henin's "Greasy Hand" incident is something that merits a lot of criticism and I laud Mary Jo Fernandez, Jim Courier, Luke Jensen (THE HAND!!!), and others for their on camera comments about it and using the term "greasy" to describe it. That bad sportsmanship by Henin would have been cheating in the amateur ranks. How post-match comments by Venus, particularly the ones in question today, even compare to that is beyond me.

Firstly, Camilio, American tennis commentators are known for their blatant and biased 'pro-Americanism'. They believe it makes for good TV. Therein lies the foundation upon which the 'Anti-Henin' comments were based. Had it been Serena - or any other American - who did the very same thing Henin did, the commentators would have made very little issue of it - guaranteed. You know that, as well.

Secondly... You make a distinction between sportsmanship on and sportsmanship off the court. That seems convenient to your position. I, personally, don't see how such a distinction can be made. Good sportsmanship is good sportsmanship - on or off the court. Respect is respect - on or off the court. If Henin did deliberately do what you accuse her of deliberately doing, it displayed poor sportsmanship and a lack of respect for her opponent. The things Venus and Serena persistently say post-match display poor sportsmanship and a lack of respect for their opponents. So, you see, there is a connection. A very strong one. The only major difference is in quantity – with the Williams sisters winning by a wide margin over Henin.

With their haughty, obnoxious celebrations after every win (no matter what round, no matter how easy or difficult the win); with their persistent making of excuse after excuse when they lose, rarely, if ever, showing their victors the respect of crediting their play, preferring instead to focus only on how they themselves are really "better than how I played today, and better than anyone else, despite today’s loss"; with their consistent backing out of tournaments at the last minute - and sometimes even quitting after the tournament has begun - under questionable circumstances (they've done this far more often than any other player in my recollection - and so they are either both much, much, much more prone to sudden injury than any other player in history, or they simply don't care about either their opponents, the fans, or the game as a whole)... Venus and Serena have shown an unmistakable arrogance and an undeniable disrespect towards opponents, fans, and the game alike. There have been far too many examples for one to claim that they are simply 'misunderstood', and/or that they are still young and inexperienced, as was perhaps possible in the beginning. The examples simply keep coming. From both Venus and Serena. Compare these many examples of disrespect, arrogance, etc. to examples of the same from Henin - and, if one is looking through objective, unbiased lenses, one will see that there are far more examples on the side of the Williams sisters. You, however, claim that it is the opposite - that Henin is guilty of more vile and negative behavior than are either Venus or Serena - though I see you presenting no evidence to support your claim - other than the isolated 'hand' incident, which you continue to focus on, in large part because it occurred against Serena.

Indeed, because denouncing Henin has become a ‘pet project’ of yours, if Henin did even half of the things Venus and Serena have done over the past 5 years, you'd be one of the first persons to jump all over her, claiming poor sportsmanship, arrogance, disrespect, etc. But you steadfastly refuse to criticize the Williams sisters for their blatant offences in these areas. This, by definition, is unjust. When it comes to the subject of the Williams sisters, your comments are unjust, disproportionate, and inaccurate.

I hope you do one day overcome your blatant inability to apply the same admirable and noble standards you hold on other issues to issues involving the Williams sisters.

Camilio Pascual
03-03-2005, 03:46 AM
You ascribe much to me I haven't said and you dismissed the comments about Henin by dismissing the commentators, making them the topic. Your perception about quantity may be due to the fact that we see the Williams sisters so much more often, due to their superior results and the bias of the Americans who control the media.
Serena got totally hosed in that match by the crowd (that's their right to dislike and show their dislike for her), the officials (incompetence), and Henin (greasy behaviour).
I do not judge people too much by what they say in an interview, Rude-ski is the only one whose chops I've busted for his comments about Sampras after losing to him and just before Pete won the Open. I've forgiven him because he made a self-deprecating joke about it on himself the next year.
I don't judge players' post match comments much because of what I imagine I would do as a pro player. I'd lie through my teeth, if needed, to say whatever I could say to demoralize, anger, frustrate, and introduce self doubt in my future opponents. Or, I'll use sugar to turn somebody too content and not competitive or combative enough with me if I think that would help me win. I admit I would use the conferences to play head games. It would also make me an unpopular player, which would fit the iconoclast role I'd want to play. I'd be Todd Martin on the court, Jimmy Connors off the court, classic passive-aggressive behaviour. Other than Rude-ski (that is so much fun to type) you won't find much discussion and no strong feelings about any player's post match comments from me.

Rabbit
03-03-2005, 04:43 AM
The disagreement I have is that Connors was Connors on/off the court and Martin was Martin on/off the court. The same holds true for the Williams. They just plain and simple aren't nice people. It may have to do with their parents, I don't know and frankly don't care.

With regard to Henin, what she did was an isolated thing. To my knowledge, she's not done it before or since. Was it the wrong thing to do? Absolutely. Has she repeated the behavior? Again, I don't think so. I think Henin has the most beautiful game on the woman's tour. She showed poor sportsmanship at the French Open final, but you know what? I can understand an incident like that in the heat of the moment. Should she have taken it upon herself to tell the ump? Yes, definetly. Did she break the rules? Only if we're going to say that every other professional player should overrule every call they think is wrong that goes in their favor.

Sorry, Camilio, but I'm with Deuce on this one. While Henin showed bad sportsmanship in once incident, the Willaims have done it their entire careers. I don't see giving them a hall pass simply because their black. I would like to add that the same applies to Jennifer Capriati who has consistently shown that she prefers winning to being a nice person. The women aren't as mature as the men, IMO. I've seen Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Martin, and Chang give calls away. The women, pretty much all of them, just don't do that.

Kaptain Karl
03-03-2005, 06:14 AM
The Aussies of the '60's said it best, "If you're not fit, default. If you go on court, you're 100%"
Coming late to this thread, I am so happy you posted this, Metzler. It is *just* what I was recalling as I read the early posts.

The Aussies of the 60s and early 70s led the way in class. I still hold John Newcombe as my #1 favorite player ... largely because he was very good AND very classy.

- KK

Kaptain Karl
03-03-2005, 06:19 AM
With regard to Henin, what she did was an isolated thing."Not quite," Rabbit. Henin was, IMO, the "leader" of the mis-use of the Injury Time Out. Clijsters was asked about one very visible incident of Justine exploiting the Time Out and replied that Henin has done it "all the time." I think "greasy" is a perfect adjective for Henin.

Sorry, Camilio, but I'm with Deuce on this one. While Henin showed bad sportsmanship in once incident, the Willaims have done it their entire careers. I don't see giving them a hall pass simply because their black. I would like to add that the same applies to Jennifer Capriati who has consistently shown that she prefers winning to being a nice person. The women aren't as mature as the men, IMO. I've seen Courier, Sampras, Agassi, Martin, and Chang give calls away. The women, pretty much all of them, just don't do that.Other than your claim that Henin's behavior was isolated, I strongly agree with this paragraph.

- KK

Camilio Pascual
03-03-2005, 06:23 AM
Well, we disagree, no sweat. Henin did NOT cheat. "Greasy" means behaviour that would be cheating in the amateur game, but is not illegal in the pro game.

Rabbit
03-03-2005, 07:12 AM
Kaptain Karl - excellent point, I stand corrected. Henin does make extensive and frequent use of injury time outs. I wonder if the younger players feel that this is part of the game rather than the old Aussie adage of enter/play. I guess as an old-schooler, it would bother me. I guess this just another case of the game changing for the worse. The injury time out rule was invoked after that Asian player cramped so badly at the Open. It has morphed into gamesmanship for the most part. Is there any real proof that she does this as gamesmanship? (This is not a rhetorical question, I really don't know.)

Although, I do remember (my personal fav) Greg Rusedski complaining about Todd Martin taking an injury time out at the Open. Martin said directly to Greggie "I'm kinda hurtin' here, Greg...". The problem with the time out is that who knows if it is legitimate. Anybody else remember Becker taking a bathroom break to slow his opponent down at Wimbledon? Also, Becker accused Muster of cheating at a Monte Carlo tournment after Muster had to be carried off and hospitalized after his semi. The very next day, he beat the crap out of Becker. My own opinion is that Muster was a superbly conditioned athlete who recovered (within the rules of the game) and he was a warrior.

TS Ramesh
03-03-2005, 07:43 AM
Like'em or hate'm, we are still within our rights to ask for a balanced presentation of the facts surrounding the Wiliams' sisters on-court and off-court behavior in relation to the sport. I have heard none of her detractors on this board mention Venus' handling of the egregious scoring error at Wimbledon last year in her match against Sprem, or Serena's handling of the blatant line-call overrules in her US Open match against Capriati (where it was Capriati, in fact, that exhibited the kind of unsporting conduct that a lot of people are railing against). And, just for the record, I'm not bringing this up to get the Williams' sisters off the hook -- there are enough documented examples of the sisters not giving credit to their opponent for that to be a legitimate complaint. All I'm saying is that they have also, at the same time, provided us with enough documented examples of their sporting conduct on and off-court for one to take pause before condemning them outright.

--Ramesh

Kaptain Karl
03-03-2005, 08:35 AM
... Is there any real proof that she does this as gamesmanship? (This is not a rhetorical question, I really don't know.) I don't "know" either, but my gut tells me she's a slimy fake. (I *love* Justine's talent. I cannot stand her poor sportsmanship.)


... they have also, at the same time, provided us with enough documented examples of their sporting conduct on and off-court for one to take pause before condemning them outright.I will agree that Venus handled the Wimbledon/Sprem incident very well. I commend her for that. (Maybe she "rises the the challenge" in the really tight cases...?)

Serena? No.

Lately she's reminded me of that saying, "Her mouth is writing checks her body can't cash." She still *thinks* she's (not just "the best" but some kind of ... *******). Her recent record does not support her own apparent belief.

For the record -- I think Serena *could be* one of the GOATs. But she seems to think she's such a ... superlative ... individual, that she can be great at multiple endeavors. She's deluded in that (apparent) belief too. I cringe at how she chooses not to strive to achieve what she *could* in tennis. What a waste of talent and ability....

(I am an actor and director. Serena cannot act, period. The peope who are supporting that "dream" are merely taking her money.)

- KK

tennis-n-sc
03-03-2005, 09:07 AM
Venus did not handle the scoring incident with Sprem one way or the other. Heck, she didn't know what the score was either or she would have corrected the ump when the score was announced. She was just as duped as everyone else. I deserve to lose if I can't keep my own score.

No one can hold a candle to Serena for questionable medical timeouts. "Dysfunctional rib"? Plueeeeez!

They should be forced to spend a month living with Chanda Rubin, Lindsey or Amanda Coetzer. Maybe a little class would rub off on them.

Rabbit
03-03-2005, 11:44 AM
No one can hold a candle to Serena for questionable medical timeouts. "Dysfunctional rib"? Plueeeeez!

They should be forced to spend a month living with Chanda Rubin, Lindsey or Amanda Coetzer. Maybe a little class would rub off on them.


Great point, I had forgotten about the rib incident. I also don't remember any outcry from the commentators. It was clear that they didn't believe it.

As to your second comment about living a month....amen, brother.

Camilio Pascual
03-03-2005, 12:25 PM
I am without class (or shame), apparently. Therefore, I should be forced to live a month with Amanda Coetzer.

Rabbit
03-03-2005, 12:54 PM
Somehow I knew that was coming. :)

As classless as you are, Camilio, it may take longer.....a year perhaps?

Kaptain Karl
03-03-2005, 06:21 PM
For years I've missed Llendl's post-match interviews. (He did not like the Press.)

I remember one brilliant question -- I think it was after Ivan won a Qtr F at the USO -- "What's the most important point to win in tennis?"

How Llendl managed to keep a straight face, I'll never know. He calmly looked at the "Journalist" and said, "Umm. The last one."

- KK

tennis-n-sc
03-04-2005, 03:08 AM
Yea, I should have thought about how many guys would become totally classless just to live with Amanda for a month or longer. LMAO It didn't take long!