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View Full Version : Less friction more spin. more control


mokong
02-20-2009, 10:28 AM
I find polyester mains to easily slide back to its straight line much so with poly crosses thereby generating more spin. So, when I glued aluminum string savers on my natgut or syngut mains with poly crosses minimizing friction I feel I can generate more spin with unbelievable feel and comfort with both set up. I'm now on my 2nd bb orig. as crosses with the old victor imperial gut strings.

corners
02-20-2009, 11:37 PM
Very interesting. Have you read this paper?:

"SUPER HIGH SPEED VIDEO ANALYSIS OF TENNIS TOP SPIN AND ITS PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENT BY STRING LUBRICATION"

The link to the PDF is broken right now, but if you do a search you can find it. A Japanese company called mirafit makes a string lubrication product that apparently allows non-poly strings to slide and move back into position. They claim this product increases spin by 30%(!) and decreases shot velocity by 6%.

I wonder how much of the power modulation effect of poly may be attributed to the slipperiness of poly strings, rather than their stiffness.

Your method does the same thing as all-poly or lubricated strings.

Have you noticed much difference in performance between natural and syngut in your setup?

How about difference between natural gut mains/poly crosses with and without the stringsavers?

Do you consider the 'slipperiness' or notch-resistance of your syngut main choices, or are these non-issues when you use string savers?

Will you post pictures of your setup?

hoodjem
02-21-2009, 07:21 AM
"glued aluminum string savers on my natgut or syngut mains"?????

Is this common?

mokong
02-22-2009, 04:25 AM
I knew I'll surprise you you guys re aluminum string savers. But I didn't expect 5 question marks from hoodjem.

I've tried almost everything to save on strings, 15 years ago when I was still using the ps6 95 I use to glue all the intersections of both mains and crosses, my favorite was the wilson sensation ti, went down to 43 lbs to get my desired feel. It last me 6 months until it snapped at the top grommet, had to coat the sweet spot every time I play with nail polish or crazy glue or whatever was on hand.

You don't want to see my stick because I have 4 square knots inside the string bed near the frame, have 2 nylon mains from the clothes line at both sides having a total of 7 knots all in all. I only have 10 gut mains. Like I said its the old Victor Imperials. I can get 3 gut mains out of the 40 ft that Babolat sells that way. I' m now using a granny Head IX11 very similar to IS12. Both have this 14 x 17 string bed so you can imagine how fast full syngut wears out.

The feel and spin is greatly improved using my string savers compared to the set up without. Of course the set up with gut is livelier and crispier because you can always up the tension. No, there are no notching, I think the polys are quite slippery not to notch the aluminum alloy.

Yes, the aluminum string savers are quite common if you have the time. Don't use the tray that comes with the chinese food party packs. What I use is the soda cans. You can get a thousand pieces of string savers out of that. All you need are a pair of scissors, a tube of crazy glue and all the time in the world. 2.5 x 2.5 mm or 3 x 3mm will do. You have to bend it to have a good hold on the mains once you apply the glue.

Have fun!

mokong
02-22-2009, 04:50 AM
Don't forget the twissers and anything that can jack up the string to insert the string savers. What I use is a modfied part of the nail clipper

ci2ca
02-22-2009, 12:44 PM
Is this for real!?

corners
02-24-2009, 04:52 AM
Mokong,

You could possibly play your aluminum string savered gut forever if you swapped your poly crosses for a durable, tension-maintaining syngut like Gamma Marathon DPC 17.

Marathon 17, according to USRSA, holds tension almost as well as natural gut. It isn't slippery like poly, but you could contact the good folks at mirafit.com and request a sample of their string lubrication product.

BTW, do you know how much weight all that aluminum adds to your setup?

Any chance of seeing a pic?

Cheers

dman72
02-24-2009, 05:35 AM
So should I lube up my Ashway crossfire setup before my match tomorrow?

mokong
02-24-2009, 08:00 AM
I wouldn't use nylon with this set up for 3 reasons. 1st poly are slippery as it is, 2nd it would last the syn gut more than twice its supposed to, and 3rd cyanoarylate or crazy glue doesn't bond well with polys, you don't want syngut crosses with humps caused by excess glue.

Sorry, I have never weigh my stick before and after I install the string savers. But I,m sure It doesn't make much of a difference.

Btw I was wrong to say I've got 7 knots in this set up, its actually 9 in all. 4 knots to join all the scrap gut, 4 for starting and finishing, and 1 more to join the poly cross and the scrap nylons I use to fill up 2 mains on both sides and 3 bottom crosses:)

gastro54
02-24-2009, 08:56 AM
Here is the abstract of that paper:

Players often say that some strings provide a better grip and more spin than others, but ball spin did not depend on string type, gauge or tension in the past laboratory experiment. There was no research work on the spin to uncover what is really happening during actual tennis impact owing to difficult experiment. The previous paper made clear the mechanism of top spin and its improvement by lubrication of strings according to the high speed video analysis. This paper provided the more detailed explanations of spin behavior by comparison between a lubricant string racket and a famous 'Spaghetti string racket' which was banned in 1978 by the International Tennis Federation. As the main strings stretch and slide side ways more, the ball is given more spin due to restoring force parallel to the string face when the main strings spring back and the ball is released from the strings. Furthermore, it showed that the more spin results in the reduction of shock vibrations of the wrist joint during impact.

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110006185590/

Video Analysis
http://www.mira-fit.jp/topspin.htm

crappyBackHand
02-24-2009, 11:54 PM
if i try putting vasoline on the string will it work??

corners
02-25-2009, 01:29 AM
^ I don't know. This idea of string lubrication has been discussed on these boards before, with some people suggesting teflon spray (toxic, not recommended) and silicone spray as an alternative. I haven't tried either.

My guess is, however, that you want the string intersections to be lubed, but not the surface of the main strings themselves. I think the ideal is to have the mains easily slide over the crosses, but the surface of the mains to be rough to increase friction between the mains and the ball. No friction between mains and crosses, maximal friction between mains and ball.

Vaseline is such a persistent goop that it may stay on the mains and cause the ball to 'slip' off rather than bite - but I don't know - give it a try.

Or, if you're using a fresh poly setup - you're getting about the same action anyway.

crappyBackHand
02-25-2009, 02:58 AM
ahh i see so having a slippery cross is good?

i might try to spray down my corss with teflon (with a mask of course) let it drive and string it.

Nuke
02-25-2009, 04:15 AM
You don't want to see my stick . . . What I use is the soda cans. You can get a thousand pieces of string savers out of that. All you need are a pair of scissors, a tube of crazy glue and all the time in the world. 2.5 x 2.5 mm or 3 x 3mm will do. You have to bend it to have a good hold on the mains once you apply the glue.

Dude! We definitely need to see this. Photos. Please!

corners
02-25-2009, 04:28 PM
ahh i see so having a slippery cross is good?

i might try to spray down my corss with teflon (with a mask of course) let it drive and string it.

That might work! Let us know.

If it doesn't, try contacting the mirafit folks. They might send you a free sample of their lube.

I've got some, and will give it a try after the poly I'm using now dies.

treo
02-25-2009, 05:34 PM
My theory is slipping strings is going to give you less control because the stringbed is uneven. My setup has no string movement. I use a tecnifibre polyurethane coated multi strung at 42lbs, which is 10lbs below minimum recommended. I coat the strings with a polyurethane truck bed liner which has shown no signs of coming unglued after a month of playing. Soft stingbed with lots of spin and good control. Most people would hate the muted feel. I feels like rubber coated strings which it is.

corners
02-25-2009, 06:22 PM
My theory is slipping strings is going to give you less control because the stringbed is uneven. My setup has no string movement. I use a tecnifibre polyurethane coated multi strung at 42lbs, which is 10lbs below minimum recommended. I coat the strings with a polyurethane truck bed liner which has shown no signs of coming unglued after a month of playing. Soft stingbed with lots of spin and good control. Most people would hate the muted feel. I feels like rubber coated strings which it is.

Very interesting. Notice that the OP also tried immobilizing his strings before moving on to his current motion-maximizing setup.

A lack of control with motion-maximizing setups has been mentioned before on these boards. The poster travlerajm stated in an old thread that a weakness of the 'Fed setup' - gut mains/poly crosses - was that the shorter main strings would move less than the longer, central mains, making for an uneven response outside the center of the stringbed.

On the other hand, the mirafit studies mentioned above also showed that max-motion setups increased dwell time by 20-30%, which has been associated with an increase in control.

Also, poly strings are known for their control, both because of low power and also because of high spin. Some say the hallmark of modern technique is depth control via massive spin - relatively taking hitting long, and into the net, out of the equation.

The mirafit people claim that a max motion setup will also decrease ball speed by 10% - an effect similar to low-powered poly strings - which raises the question of whether poly strings are low-powered because they're so stiff, or because of the massive spin and string movement they offer.

On the other hand, tightly strung strings are believed to offer more control, and some say - spin. This argument for spin has to do with tight strings leading to more ball flattening, which changes the radius of the ball and results in more spin when the ball flies off the string bed. But one of the Japanese high speed photo studies (10,000 frames/second!) contains a claim that at the high ball speeds seen in advanced play the ball does not actually flatten more on a stiff stringbed compared to a loose stringbed.

I guess it boils down to: do you want more consistent stringbed response and less spin - or - more spin, and more spin-derived depth control and angles?

Travlerajm also contended that Sampras, with his tightly strung racquet, would have had an easier time dealing with Nadal's heavy spin, while Federer's loosely strung, max-movement stringbed creates a ton of spin but also is more or less at the mercy of Nadal's string-distorting torque.

A style thing I guess. Sampras seems to be doing pretty well dealing with today's heavy spin at the net, while even ten years ago Rafter was saying it was getting harder to control the volley with the emergence of poly strings.

mokong
02-26-2009, 06:15 AM
got pics ready but I don't know how to post it

corners
02-26-2009, 06:36 AM
got pics ready but I don't know how to post it

Very cool Mokong.

I've never done it, but found these instructions in the forum FAQ:

What Are Attachments?

The administrator may allow you to use the attachment feature of this forum, which gives you the ability to attach files of certain types to your posts. This could be an image, a text document, a zip file etc. There will be a limit to the file size of any attachments you make.

To attach a file to a new post, simply click the [Manage Attachments] button at the bottom of the post composition page, and locate the file that you want to attach from your local hard drive.

After posting, the image attachments may display a thumbnail, depending on the forum settings. To view the contents of the attachment (if it is not already displayed) simply click the filename link that appears next to the attachment icon.

Sublime
02-26-2009, 07:07 AM
Easiest way to post a pic is to upload it to a site like www.tinypic.com (http://www.tinypic.com/).

Once it's uploaded it will give you a link to use to post it. In fact it will even provide you with a link wrapped in [ IMG ] [/IMG] flags for posting on this (or pretty much any other) forum.

mokong
02-27-2009, 04:54 AM
http://i40.tinypic.com/n6wfi9.jpg

corners
02-27-2009, 05:36 AM
Brilliant! Thanks Mokong.

mokong
02-27-2009, 07:47 AM
You're welcome buddy.

The dark main is the old victor imperial with the tonic below, crossing them is the bb original.

treo
02-27-2009, 10:00 AM
I'd hate to have one of those aluminum shards fly into my my eye or down my lungs! Babolat elastrocross is safer, easy to install and reduces friction. It give the same muted feel as my rubber coated strings.

corners
02-27-2009, 06:24 PM
I'd hate to have one of those aluminum shards fly into my my eye or down my lungs! Babolat elastrocross is safer, easy to install and reduces friction. It give the same muted feel as my rubber coated strings.

Hey Treo,

I've never used stringsavers, but my impression was that the Babolat elastocross allowed for mucho string movement as they have a teflon surface to interface with strings. No friction, no notching/fraying, but lots of movement.

Since your rubber coated setup doesn't allow movement, I'm surprised you liked the stringsavers. Am I wrong about them allowing movement?

I've been thinking of trying the teflon stringsavers in a gut/Prince Recoil hybrid. The teflon stringsavers would slide easily on the teflon surface of the recoil.

treo
02-28-2009, 09:43 AM
Yes, the teflon Babolat string savers do make the strings slide easily and they slide back into place. They give a muted feel which I would rather not have, but don't mind. I don't prefer these kind or any string savers. All string savers can pop out and a piece of plastic or teflon is a safer alternative than a piece of aluminum.

corners
02-28-2009, 06:51 PM
Yes, the teflon Babolat string savers do make the strings slide easily and they slide back into place. They give a muted feel which I would rather not have, but don't mind. I don't prefer these kind or any string savers. All string savers can pop out and a piece of plastic or teflon is a safer alternative than a piece of aluminum.

Aye, unless you use super glue!

kiteboard
04-18-2010, 03:00 PM
Super glue causes cancer. Esp. the fumes without vent., or on mucous membrane. I would not use it. Elmer's won't, but it won't hold as well either. My tennis buddy got it due to the fact he used it to glue his retainer over and over, and now he has to use a bottle to provide saliva, and went through chemo hell.