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View Full Version : Ridiculous ranking rule costs Nadal and Verdasco ranking points


Zaragoza
03-04-2009, 06:36 AM
Dubai is an ATP 500 event.Nadal and Verdasco didn't play because they were injured. Only the best 4 ATP 500 results count in the rankings for players who finished last year in the top 30.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#pointvalue

This is the part I find ridiculous:

"All direct acceptance players at the time of the entry deadline who do not play will receive a 0-pointer in their ranking.

A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties".

The entry deadline is 6 weeks before the start of the tournament so if some player gets injured in the previous 6 weeks and can't play the tournament but it's not a 1 month injury (Nadal-Rotterdam) he receives a penalty in the rankings.
It's a complete non sense. It's not right to penalize someone who can't play a tournament because of an injury.
I guess the ATP wanted to avoid players faking injuries and withdrawing from tournaments in the last minute but this rule is completely unfair to players with legit injuries. If someone is injured and he can verify it, he shouldn't be fined despite the date of the injury.


And adding more fuel, Federer withdrew from Dubai in the previous week alleguing a back injury that didn't let him play at 100% but Federer didn't receive a 0 pointer penalty in the rankings.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=F324

Why? I guess it's because he showed up at the players party in Dubai and the ATP sees it as a promoting event activity. I can't think of any other reason but I would like to know if there is one.
This is also ridiculous. We know Federer resides and practices in Dubai for a good part of the season but the ATP cannot expect that players who live thousands of miles away go all the way to Dubai just for a promoting event activity. Bottom line is Federer didn't receive a penalty in the rankings because he resides in Dubai whereas Nadal and Verdasco received a penalty because they live too far away from Dubai.


This rule means that Nadal, Verdasco and Roddick (he also got a 0 pointer but it was his own decision not to play in Dubai) cannot gain ranking points from their best 4 ATP 500 results, only from their best 3, because that 0 pointer will not drop until next year.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=N409

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=V306

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=R485


Davis Cup results also count in the ATP 500 category rankings wise so it's possible that Davis Cup ranking points are not countable for these players.

There is also another 0 pointer penalty for players who don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open. I find this rule ridiculous as well. Why make it mandatory after the US Open (when all players are more tired) and not before? So if Nadal, Verdasco or Roddick don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open they will get two 0 point penalties and only their best 2 results in 500 events will count in the rankings, even if they played more ATP 500 events than other players before the US Open.

The ATP wanted to promote these 500 events but the rules they made for that are a complete and unfair mess. This is probably the last legacy of De Villiers. Does the ATP even consider the players opinions when making these rules? I doubt so. Players should give a step forward, voice their opinions and have more weight in decisions. ATP is nothing without players. What is the Players Council for?

saram
03-04-2009, 06:38 AM
Rules are rules...

gj011
03-04-2009, 06:42 AM
I agree it is a stupid rule, but I think 0 points 500 tournament will be dropped if he has 4 better 500 series result. It says "4 best 500 tournaments".

It is ridiculous though that Federer didn't get 0 pointer.

Sentinel
03-04-2009, 06:45 AM
Let's find the real reason, Z. What you put is your guess !


Is Fee around ???

Cyan
03-04-2009, 06:45 AM
If Rafa gets the 0 pointer then maybe he will not try to add yet another 500 tournament to his schedule, since the 0 pointer stays regardless.

Zaragoza
03-04-2009, 06:50 AM
I agree it is a stupid rule, but I think 0 points 500 tournament will be dropped if he has 4 better 500 series result. It says "4 best 500 tournaments".

It is ridiculous though that Federer didn't get 0 pointer.

Unfortunately that's not the case. The 0 pointers remain until next year even if there are 4 better 500 series results, that's what the penalty is about.

i.e. if Nadal plays Rotterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg and Davis Cup, only his best 3 results will count. And if he doesn't play a 500 event after the US Open, only his best 2 results will count until the drop date of those penalties.

Zaragoza
03-04-2009, 06:54 AM
Let's find the real reason, Z. What you put is your guess !


Is Fee around ???

The only thing I'm not sure about is why Federer didn't get the penalty but I can't find any other reason. The rest of the post is clear.

edmondsm
03-04-2009, 07:07 AM
The only thing I'm not sure about is why Federer didn't get the penalty but I can't find any other reason. The rest of the post is clear.

Federer didn't play Rotterdam and Nadal did. So Federer can allege that his injury has been verifiable since the end of the Aussie Open. Nadal played a tournament less then a month ago and was injured there so he cannot claim the same as Federer. It's the only reason I can think of.

szakharin
03-04-2009, 07:32 AM
Isn't Federer's injury a recurrence of the one that kept him out of matches in 2008? If so, then it's possible that Fed told the ATP that he reaggravated it at the AO.

Gorecki
03-04-2009, 07:33 AM
It's a Conspiracy against Rafito... poor boy...


Those darn ATP managers creating rules just to tick him of!


ps:mediocrity is questioning the rules when they dont suit you! but going deaf, dumb and blid when they are ok for you!

Oui, c'est moi.
03-04-2009, 07:54 AM
It's so difficult to find things to fill that empty space between Acapulco and DC/IW.

Nadal_Freak
03-04-2009, 07:57 AM
What a load of garbage. Doing everything they can to allow Federer to be back to number 1.

tacou
03-04-2009, 07:59 AM
ps:mediocrity is questioning the rules when they dont suit you! but going deaf, dumb and blid when they are ok for you!

are you saying rafa-fans are whining about nothing? if so I'd have to disagree. this is a pretty stupid rule.

thejoe
03-04-2009, 08:02 AM
What a load of garbage. Doing everything they can to allow Federer to be back to number 1.

Good Lord. I can just picture your response had this affected Federer:

"Rules are rules. Typical Federer, thinking he is above the game."

Get over it.

Nadal_Freak
03-04-2009, 08:04 AM
Good Lord. I can just picture your response had this affected Federer:

"Rules are rules. Typical Federer, thinking he is above the game."

Get over it.
You know me too well. haha

henryshli
03-04-2009, 08:08 AM
The only thing I'm not sure about is why Federer didn't get the penalty but I can't find any other reason. The rest of the post is clear.

Federer got knocked out in the first or second round last year by Murray so he didn't actually have any points on Dubai anyway. therefore a 0-pointer made no difference

seffina
03-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Rules are rules of course and I don't think they're bad ones per say. It's hard for tournys when players pull out even if they have legitimate reasons. It sucks for Rafa and Verdasco, but the rules were there before they pulled out.

Nadal could obviously appeal the 0 pointer. He has the means to do that.

Currently, however, Davis Cup points can't replace a 0 pointer only a bad 500 result. At best he'll have two 500 tournys count if he doesn't play after the USO.

My initial reaction to the after the USO rule was that it was silly, but those tournaments need participants as well. There isn't a reason that they should be penalized for when they occur.

As I said in an earlier thread, Rafa should enter Valencia. It's close to home and close to Paris. Not much travel involved. In addition, he doesn't have to do incredibly well there if their Davis Cup results have been good. That way he'll have three good results to go on.

Federer only had three 500 tournys scheduled before he exited Dubai. He might schedule a new one now, but I don't think the top players are that focused on playing them.

henryshli
03-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Unfortunately that's not the case. The 0 pointers remain until next year even if there are 4 better 500 series results, that's what the penalty is about.

i.e. if Nadal plays Rotterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg and Davis Cup, only his best 3 results will count. And if he doesn't play a 500 event after the US Open, only his best 2 results will count until the drop date of those penalties.

Only best 3 counts really? I've never heard this before but if it's true then it's very harsh

seffina
03-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Federer got knocked out in the first or second round last year by Murray so he didn't actually have any points on Dubai anyway. therefore a 0-pointer made no difference

He didn't get a 0 pointer because he probably withdrew before acceptance list was out. That was good of him and his team to do so.

I read in another forum that the promotional event thing also helped, but I thought that was a WTA rule, not an ATP rule. It doesn't say anything about that on the website in the rules mentioned.

veroniquem
03-04-2009, 08:26 AM
Unfair and nonsensical rule. I hope the players who are on the ATP board can do something about it. This situation when players did exactly the same thing and some of them will be penalized whereas others won't shows the absurdity of it and the necessity to review it ASAP.

tahiti
03-04-2009, 08:38 AM
I must admit it's quite confusing but it doesn't seem fair that you can't count 5.

Anyway I have faith that Rafa's team know what they're doing and maybe they're also trying to cut back on tournaments and this was one way to do it. Good idea to play in Valencia. On clay and close to home.

seffina
03-04-2009, 08:46 AM
I must admit it's quite confusing but it doesn't seem fair that you can't count 5.

Anyway I have faith that Rafa's team know what they're doing and maybe they're also trying to cut back on tournaments and this was one way to do it. Good idea to play in Valencia. On clay and close to home.
It's a hardcourt tourny now. Still it's not like he has to do that well there if their Davis Cup team has been doing well.

tahiti
03-04-2009, 08:53 AM
I hope they'll do well the Spanish team, imagine how many extra points he would have had it they counted them last year!

TheTruth
03-04-2009, 01:59 PM
What a load of garbage. Doing everything they can to allow Federer to be back to number 1.

Ain't it the truth? So sad.

NamRanger
03-04-2009, 02:02 PM
Nadal is on the player council, as well as Federer and other players. Although we make it as though both Nadal and Federer hate each other, they really don't. I think Federer would find a way to help out Nadal, considering both of them have a considerable amount of clout.

Leublu tennis
03-04-2009, 03:14 PM
It's so difficult to find things to fill that empty space between Acapulco and DC/IW.
Isn't that the truth?

edmondsm
03-04-2009, 03:44 PM
Ain't it the truth? So sad.

Nadal Freak admitted that his post was a load of garbage and then a page later we find you agreeing with it.

Rules are rules. They may be harsh, but everyone is governed by them. If this situation would have gone against Federer, Veroniquem, and The Freak would have been toasting the ATP.

miyagi
03-04-2009, 03:48 PM
The rule IS unfair...the ATP forces them to play too much tennis they should shorten the calendor and then this rule would be fairer.

Don't know why Federer didn't get 0 pointed and Nadal did probablu is a reason that we have over looked.

But this won't affect the out come of #1 spot so dont know why people are getting so excited about it!

edmondsm
03-04-2009, 04:11 PM
The rule IS unfair...the ATP forces them to play too much tennis they should shorten the calendor and then this rule would be fairer.

Don't know why Federer didn't get 0 pointed and Nadal did probablu is a reason that we have over looked.

But this won't affect the out come of #1 spot so dont know why people are getting so excited about it!

It has to be because Roger didn't play Rotterdam. Because of that he can say that he has a nagging back injury that has lasted for more then a month. Nadal can't say that because he was injured in Rotterdam less then a month ago.

The rule is really stupid IMO, but I guess the ATP feels like they need these measures to keep top players from lying about injuries so they can go hang out on the beach or whatever. There may have been players in the past who did this, but it is really unfortunate that it affects a hardworking champ like Nadal.

Joseph L. Barrow
03-04-2009, 07:21 PM
Dubai is an ATP 500 event.Nadal and Verdasco didn't play because they were injured. Only the best 4 ATP 500 results count in the rankings for players who finished last year in the top 30.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#pointvalue

This is the part I find ridiculous:

"All direct acceptance players at the time of the entry deadline who do not play will receive a 0-pointer in their ranking.

A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties".

The entry deadline is 6 weeks before the start of the tournament so if some player gets injured in the previous 6 weeks and can't play the tournament but it's not a 1 month injury (Nadal-Rotterdam) he receives a penalty in the rankings.
It's a complete non sense. It's not right to penalize someone who can't play a tournament because of an injury.
I guess the ATP wanted to avoid players faking injuries and withdrawing from tournaments in the last minute but this rule is completely unfair to players with legit injuries. If someone is injured and he can verify it, he shouldn't be fined despite the date of the injury.


And adding more fuel, Federer withdrew from Dubai in the previous week alleguing a back injury that didn't let him play at 100% but Federer didn't receive a 0 pointer penalty in the rankings.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=F324

Why? I guess it's because he showed up at the players party in Dubai and the ATP sees it as a promoting event activity. I can't think of any other reason but I would like to know if there is one.
This is also ridiculous. We know Federer resides and practices in Dubai for a good part of the season but the ATP cannot expect that players who live thousands of miles away go all the way to Dubai just for a promoting event activity. Bottom line is Federer didn't receive a penalty in the rankings because he resides in Dubai whereas Nadal and Verdasco received a penalty because they live too far away from Dubai.


This rule means that Nadal, Verdasco and Roddick (he also got a 0 pointer but it was his own decision not to play in Dubai) cannot gain ranking points from their best 4 ATP 500 results, only from their best 3, because that 0 pointer will not drop until next year.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=N409

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=V306

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=R485


Davis Cup results also count in the ATP 500 category rankings wise so it's possible that Davis Cup ranking points are not countable for these players.

There is also another 0 pointer penalty for players who don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open. I find this rule ridiculous as well. Why make it mandatory after the US Open (when all players are more tired) and not before? So if Nadal, Verdasco or Roddick don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open they will get two 0 point penalties and only their best 2 results in 500 events will count in the rankings, even if they played more ATP 500 events than other players before the US Open.

The ATP wanted to promote these 500 events but the rules they made for that are a complete and unfair mess. This is probably the last legacy of De Villiers. Does the ATP even consider the players opinions when making these rules? I doubt so. Players should give a step forward, voice their opinions and have more weight in decisions. ATP is nothing without players. What is the Players Council for?
Well, the site doesn't even list an "ATP 500" category on Federer's ledger right now, probably because he hasn't played one yet, so I imagine that when he does play one, they'll update his rankings page to include that category, and at such time it will show the 0 penalty. I highly doubt they're making some kind of exception for him.

rubberduckies
03-04-2009, 08:29 PM
It has to be because Roger didn't play Rotterdam. Because of that he can say that he has a nagging back injury that has lasted for more then a month. Nadal can't say that because he was injured in Rotterdam less then a month ago.

The rule is really stupid IMO, but I guess the ATP feels like they need these measures to keep top players from lying about injuries so they can go hang out on the beach or whatever. There may have been players in the past who did this, but it is really unfortunate that it affects a hardworking champ like Nadal.

Yeah. That's the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I don't it matters the Nadal was in Rotterdam less than a month before Dubai. I think what matters is that both DC and IW start less than a month after Rotterdam final, so he cannot claim that he was out for an entire 30 days. Nadal's camp is screwing his scheduling once again. There was never a point to scheduling both Rotterdam and Dubai, especially when it is required to play a 500 event after the USO.

veroniquem
03-04-2009, 08:33 PM
Nadal Freak admitted that his post was a load of garbage and then a page later we find you agreeing with it.

Rules are rules. They may be harsh, but everyone is governed by them. If this situation would have gone against Federer, Veroniquem, and The Freak would have been toasting the ATP.
Certainly not! I am radically against injustice or favoritism in all circumstances.

veroniquem
03-04-2009, 08:36 PM
Yeah. That's the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I don't it matters the Nadal was in Rotterdam less than a month before Dubai. I think what matters is that both DC and IW start less than a month after Rotterdam final, so he cannot claim that he was out for an entire 30 days. Nadal's camp is screwing his scheduling once again. There was never a point to scheduling both Rotterdam and Dubai, especially when it is required to play a 500 event after the USO.
So you find it fair that a player should be rewarded for playing fewer tournaments to begin with and then withdrawing? Sorry but that doesn't make sense at all.

MajinX
03-04-2009, 08:41 PM
they are obviously not gonna say the rules dont work for roger... like the players can sue atp if they do that. Roger did say he was sitting out of davis cup and and everythign else he was supposed to play after the AO which is a month before dubai so the real of dropping a tourney last minute penalty didnt apply. Altho its a dumb rule all the players knew about it and its gonna happen to alot of them by the end of the year.

MajinX
03-04-2009, 08:43 PM
So you find it fair that a player should be rewarded for playing fewer tournaments to begin with and then withdrawing? Sorry but that doesn't make sense at all.

he didnt say that... how many tourneys u play in is ur own business, whos getting rewarded for it?? for not playing u still get 0 but for dropping out a week or 2 before it starts get a 0 that cant be replaced. its a dumb rule imo really.

veroniquem
03-04-2009, 09:01 PM
he didnt say that... how many tourneys u play in is ur own business, whos getting rewarded for it?? for not playing u still get 0 but for dropping out a week or 2 before it starts get a 0 that cant be replaced. its a dumb rule imo really.
Yes, he said that the rule applied to Nadal (and not to Fed) because Nadal played Rotterdam while Federer played nothing since AO. If that's the case Federer is rewarded (no 0 pointer) for playing less. I agree this is real dumb.

OddJack
03-04-2009, 10:35 PM
Roger doesnt make the rules. Blame your baby for having so much injuries and stop crying about the rules. They'r there for a reason.

Gen
03-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Roger doesnt make the rules. Blame your baby for having so much injuries and stop crying about the rules. They'r there for a reason.

Speak of injuries! And what's dear Roger is doing now? Faking back injury?

feetofclay
03-04-2009, 11:59 PM
Roger doesnt make the rules. Blame your baby for having so much injuries and stop crying about the rules. They'r there for a reason.

I thought dear Roger was supposed to be injured. One rule for Roger and another for everyone else.

Safinator_1
03-05-2009, 01:01 AM
This is injustice and biggetry towards Nadal i hope the atp headquarters gets bombed in retalliation for this travesty no? :P

srinrajesh
03-05-2009, 01:53 AM
Federer didn't play Rotterdam and Nadal did. So Federer can allege that his injury has been verifiable since the end of the Aussie Open. Nadal played a tournament less then a month ago and was injured there so he cannot claim the same as Federer. It's the only reason I can think of.


Federer played the final on 1st february and dubai tourney started on 23rd. This is less than a month. Shouldnt federer get the same 0 pointer--- or is it from start of Australian open jan 19th.
Federer always seems to get the rules ,draw and schedule in his favour- perhaps we can make a movie on this conspiracy theory

shadows
03-05-2009, 02:19 AM
Federer played the final on 1st february and dubai tourney started on 23rd. This is less than a month.

I'm presuming that if the injury rules him out of playing competitive tennis for a time period after the tournament he missed as well that would count towards the 30. In Nadals case I wonder what would have happened if he'd pulled out of Dubai and the Davis Cup and not played till IW.

I'm more puzzled about Verdasco actually, he's not played competitively since the AO right?

Rhino
03-05-2009, 02:43 AM
I'm more puzzled about Verdasco actually, he's not played competitively since the AO right?

Yeah but is verdasco playing Davis Cup? Maybe thats it.
It is an annoying rule, could make the difference between a ranking position if things get tight.

raiden031
03-05-2009, 02:50 AM
Federer always seems to get the rules ,draw and schedule in his favour- perhaps we can make a movie on this conspiracy theory

Makes sense to me. The game evolves around Federer. They knew that Nadal always plays injured, so they figured having that 30 day window would bite Nadal more than Federer. It worked out just as we planned. :evil:

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 02:55 AM
Dubai is an ATP 500 event.Nadal and Verdasco didn't play because they were injured. Only the best 4 ATP 500 results count in the rankings for players who finished last year in the top 30.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#pointvalue

This is the part I find ridiculous:

"All direct acceptance players at the time of the entry deadline who do not play will receive a 0-pointer in their ranking.

A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties".

The entry deadline is 6 weeks before the start of the tournament so if some player gets injured in the previous 6 weeks and can't play the tournament but it's not a 1 month injury (Nadal-Rotterdam) he receives a penalty in the rankings.
It's a complete non sense. It's not right to penalize someone who can't play a tournament because of an injury.
I guess the ATP wanted to avoid players faking injuries and withdrawing from tournaments in the last minute but this rule is completely unfair to players with legit injuries. If someone is injured and he can verify it, he shouldn't be fined despite the date of the injury.


And adding more fuel, Federer withdrew from Dubai in the previous week alleguing a back injury that didn't let him play at 100% but Federer didn't receive a 0 pointer penalty in the rankings.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=F324

Why? I guess it's because he showed up at the players party in Dubai and the ATP sees it as a promoting event activity. I can't think of any other reason but I would like to know if there is one.
This is also ridiculous. We know Federer resides and practices in Dubai for a good part of the season but the ATP cannot expect that players who live thousands of miles away go all the way to Dubai just for a promoting event activity. Bottom line is Federer didn't receive a penalty in the rankings because he resides in Dubai whereas Nadal and Verdasco received a penalty because they live too far away from Dubai.


This rule means that Nadal, Verdasco and Roddick (he also got a 0 pointer but it was his own decision not to play in Dubai) cannot gain ranking points from their best 4 ATP 500 results, only from their best 3, because that 0 pointer will not drop until next year.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=N409

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=V306

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=R485


Davis Cup results also count in the ATP 500 category rankings wise so it's possible that Davis Cup ranking points are not countable for these players.

There is also another 0 pointer penalty for players who don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open. I find this rule ridiculous as well. Why make it mandatory after the US Open (when all players are more tired) and not before? So if Nadal, Verdasco or Roddick don't play an ATP 500 event after the US Open they will get two 0 point penalties and only their best 2 results in 500 events will count in the rankings, even if they played more ATP 500 events than other players before the US Open.

The ATP wanted to promote these 500 events but the rules they made for that are a complete and unfair mess. This is probably the last legacy of De Villiers. Does the ATP even consider the players opinions when making these rules? I doubt so. Players should give a step forward, voice their opinions and have more weight in decisions. ATP is nothing without players. What is the Players Council for?

What part of this rule states that the 30 days of being out of competition has to occur all before the tournament missed due to injury?

Shouldn't the "0" (if added at the time of the tournament in question if the verified injury is less than 30 days old) be deleted as soon as 30 days of noncompetition "due to a verified injury" has elapsed?

Otherwise, the rule would be illogical, because it would be requiring a player (example Nadal at Rotterdam) to know ahead of time that he was going to be injured in the future (in this case less than 30 days before Dubai), which is of course impossible.

Therefore, it would be impossible to follow the rule. So, if that interpretation were true, the rule would be logically absurd and would be a self-contradiction, because if players knew ahead of time that they were going to be injured in a particular tournament, then they obviously would not play in that tournament. And if players did not play in tournaments in order to not be injured in those tournaments, then any tournament in which an injury WOULD HAVE occurred would not be played in by those players who avoided injury by not playing in those tournaments. Therefore, that interpretation of the rule is self-contradictory, illogical and self-refuting, because even LESS tournaments would be played in than were played in before that rule (or at least that interpretation of the rule) was made.

Am I not correct?

shadows
03-05-2009, 03:06 AM
Yeah but is verdasco playing Davis Cup? Maybe thats it.
It is an annoying rule, could make the difference between a ranking position if things get tight.

nope not playing, Rafa, Ferrer, Robredo and Lopez are representing Spain.

Definately is an annoying rule though.

Nuke
03-05-2009, 03:36 AM
I understand the intention of this rule and agree with it. Players routinely drop out of tournaments at the last minute claiming an injury and they have no problem getting a doctor to say they need rest. Then they pop up the next week ready to go, looking no worse for wear. Something had to be done and this rule, while not perfect, is as good as any. Federer hasn't played in awhile and is skipping the Davis Cup this weekend, so his "injury" is OK. Nadal is playing DC this weekend, did not sit out the 30 days, so he loses. There's no preferential treatment for Federer. Case closed.

raiden031
03-05-2009, 03:42 AM
Federer hasn't played in awhile and is skipping the Davis Cup this weekend, so his "injury" is OK. Nadal is playing DC this weekend, did not sit out the 30 days, so he loses. There's no preferential treatment for Federer. Case closed.

Well said. I think Nandomania's point can be validated that they do take into account time after the skipped tournament. Clearly if Nadal is playing multiple tournaments within 30 days with one skipped in the middle of this due to injury, then his injury is not that bad.

Love Game
03-05-2009, 04:49 AM
I understand the intention of this rule and agree with it. Players routinely drop out of tournaments at the last minute claiming an injury and they have no problem getting a doctor to say they need rest. Then they pop up the next week ready to go, looking no worse for wear. Something had to be done and this rule, while not perfect, is as good as any. Federer hasn't played in awhile and is skipping the Davis Cup this weekend, so his "injury" is OK. Nadal is playing DC this weekend, did not sit out the 30 days, so he loses. There's no preferential treatment for Federer. Case closed.

Well said. I think Nandomania's point can be validated that they do take into account time after the skipped tournament. Clearly if Nadal is playing multiple tournaments within 30 days with one skipped in the middle of this due to injury, then his injury is not that bad.

Just one thing missing: What's your explanation for giving Verdasco a "0" for dubai, since he, just like Roger, is not playing davis cup this weekend???
@ http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=V306

http://i39.tinypic.com/24maz3q.png

1. Federer notice: Feb. 17
2. Nadal notice: Feb 19
3. Verdasco Notice: Feb 20

"17.02.2009
Dear Fans,
Today I am disappointed to announce that I am withdrawing from both Dubai and the Davis Cup tie in the United States."
@ http://www.rogerfederer.com/en/rogers/news/newsdetail.cfm?uNewsID=868

=================

"MADRID, Feb. 19 (UPI) -- World No. 1-ranked Rafael Nadal has withdrawn from next week's $2.3 million Dubai Tennis Championships because of a knee injury."
@ http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2009/02/19/Injury_keeps_Nadal_out_of_Dubai_tournament/UPI-58991235077893/

======================

"20 Feb 09
Verdasco is out of Dubai with an ankle injury.
@ http://bahamaderek.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/verdasco-is-out-of-dubai-with-an-ankle-injury/

breadstick
03-05-2009, 04:51 AM
I think the whole ranking and tournament system is funked up.

drakulie
03-05-2009, 06:16 AM
Uhmmm, whats the big deal???

Gorecki
03-05-2009, 06:23 AM
Uhmmm, whats the big deal???

nadal and verdasco lost points.... thats the "big deal".

sp00q
03-05-2009, 06:46 AM
"A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties."

Is Federer out of competition for 30 or more days? Yes.
Is Nadal out of competition for 30 or more days? No.

Here is your answer.

Sentinel
03-05-2009, 06:48 AM
Roger doesnt make the rules. Blame your baby for having so much injuries and stop crying about the rules. They'r there for a reason.

I thought dear Roger was supposed to be injured. One rule for Roger and another for everyone else.

I don't think we should start making this thread personal about Nadal or Roger. If the rule stinks, the rule stinks.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:59 AM
I understand the intention of this rule and agree with it. Players routinely drop out of tournaments at the last minute claiming an injury and they have no problem getting a doctor to say they need rest. Then they pop up the next week ready to go, looking no worse for wear. Something had to be done and this rule, while not perfect, is as good as any. Federer hasn't played in awhile and is skipping the Davis Cup this weekend, so his "injury" is OK. Nadal is playing DC this weekend, did not sit out the 30 days, so he loses. There's no preferential treatment for Federer. Case closed.
So the more tournaments you'll withdraw from, the better it will be for your ranking? And players will actually be encouraged to stay out of the tour for a longer time regardless of the nature of an injury in order to avoid penalty? And that's supposed to benefit the tour in any way? That is utterly ridiculous, I can't imagine players in general would put up with this nonsense. I thought the main idea was to DISSUADE players from withdrawing from tournaments, not INCITE them to do so: "ha you're gonna be penalized for not playing this tournament but if you skip the next tournament too, then we're OK with it" :shock:. What the heck ?

vive le beau jeu !
03-05-2009, 07:03 AM
I understand the intention of this rule and agree with it. Players routinely drop out of tournaments at the last minute claiming an injury and they have no problem getting a doctor to say they need rest. Then they pop up the next week ready to go, looking no worse for wear. Something had to be done and this rule, while not perfect, is as good as any. Federer hasn't played in awhile and is skipping the Davis Cup this weekend, so his "injury" is OK. Nadal is playing DC this weekend, did not sit out the 30 days, so he loses. There's no preferential treatment for Federer. Case closed.
ok for nadal, but what about verdasco ? we didn't see him since the AO !

Nuke
03-05-2009, 07:06 AM
And that's supposed to benefit the tour in any way?
Absolutely, by discouraging the common "one week injury" pullouts. Do you think it helps the tour when a tournament advertises the top players that have entered, sells tickets based on their expected appearances, and then are left with a swiss-cheess draw full of holes after the pullouts?

ESP#1
03-05-2009, 07:08 AM
I guess they are trying to make players take these 500 tourneys serious. That being said I think if someone has a legitimate injury they should not be penalize.

I also think the "rules are rules" train of thought is pretty ridiculous. Its not only your right to question the rules but more an obligation, those of you who against questioning rules would do well in Fascist Germany

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 07:16 AM
Absolutely, by discouraging the common "one week injury" pullouts. Do you think it helps the tour when a tournament advertises the top players that have entered, sells tickets based on their expected appearances, and then are left with a swiss-cheess draw full of holes after the pullouts?
That argument is ludicrous. How is it going to help ANY tournament that the player misses 2 (or more) instead of 1. How is it going to help the Davis cup that Federer is not gonna play it? I'm gonna tell you how, low attendance, lower TV ratings and one-sided results.
And Verdasco isn't playing DC either, why wouldn't he benefit from the rule in the same way as Roger? What's going on here? There's got to be a different explanation or reason that escapes us. Maybe we should email ATP about it.
Anyway if that happened to be the actual reason (which I still can't believe as Verdasco would obviously have to raise hell about the enigmatic double standards), Nadal should be highly praised for putting his team spirit and love for his country or passion for the game before some screwed up ranking rule that is gonna cost him in the end.

seffina
03-05-2009, 07:23 AM
Verdasco let them know too late, maybe? I think it'll be less than a month from when he told them to IW. Just guessing.

As I said earlier, I agree with the intention of the rule. It's hard for tournaments when they have pull outs like this. They have done promos and made arrangements and all that.

It really sucks that Rafa has to suffer because of this. He legitimately hurt himself and needed rest. He shouldn't be penalized for that, but the rules weren't created after he was injured. There were there before. Obviously the ATP cares for its new 500 tournaments and want people to take them seriously. Maybe the rules will get better once this new system is set.

Until then, players will just deal with it. Let's just hope in the long run it doesn't matter for Nadal, Verdasco, or Andy's ranking.

raiden031
03-05-2009, 07:47 AM
So the more tournaments you'll withdraw from, the better it will be for your ranking? And players will actually be encouraged to stay out of the tour for a longer time regardless of the nature of an injury in order to avoid penalty? And that's supposed to benefit the tour in any way? That is utterly ridiculous, I can't imagine players in general would put up with this nonsense. I thought the main idea was to DISSUADE players from withdrawing from tournaments, not INCITE them to do so: "ha you're gonna be penalized for not playing this tournament but if you skip the next tournament too, then we're OK with it" :shock:. What the heck ?

The more tournaments you withdrawl from, the more you are going to hurt your own ranking by having less results to get points from. You might not get a 0-point penalty for an event, but you will get 0 points simply by missing too many events and not getting your minimum number played.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 07:49 AM
The more tournaments you withdrawl from, the more you are going to hurt your own ranking by having less results to get points from. You might not get a 0-point penalty for an event, but you will get 0 points simply by missing too many events and not getting your minimum number played.
Either way that penalty is absurd.

seffina
03-05-2009, 07:51 AM
It is in someways. It encourages you not to participate in other 500 events to make up for your missed event. Right? That's not something they want either.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 07:55 AM
Verdasco let them know too late, maybe? I think it'll be less than a month from when he told them to IW. Just guessing.

As I said earlier, I agree with the intention of the rule. It's hard for tournaments when they have pull outs like this. They have done promos and made arrangements and all that.

It really sucks that Rafa has to suffer because of this. He legitimately hurt himself and needed rest. He shouldn't be penalized for that, but the rules weren't created after he was injured. There were there before. Obviously the ATP cares for its new 500 tournaments and want people to take them seriously. Maybe the rules will get better once this new system is set.

Until then, players will just deal with it. Let's just hope in the long run it doesn't matter for Nadal, Verdasco, or Andy's ranking.
What do you mean? It was less than a month from IW when Federer told them too (the announcements were made at a couple days interval), and neither has played since AO. As far as I can see, Verdasco and Federer's situations are identical. I hope journalists bring the issue up in interviews because the whole thing looks bad at the moment.

seffina
03-05-2009, 08:05 AM
What do you mean? It was less than a month from IW when Federer told them too (the announcements were made at a couple days interval), and neither has played since AO. As far as I can see, Verdasco and Federer's situations are identical. I hope journalists bring the issue up in interviews because the whole thing looks bad at the moment.

You're right. I really don't know then. Maybe the promotional event that Federer went to made a difference somehow. I do hope it is cleared up.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 08:09 AM
You're right. I really don't know then. Maybe the promotional event that Federer went to made a difference somehow. I do hope it is cleared up.
You know, you may be right, another quirky rule. I'm curious to see if the players concerned are upset about it. I haven't heard anything from them yet.

drakulie
03-05-2009, 08:18 AM
nadal and verdasco lost points.... thats the "big deal".

Ah. So Darth Federer used the powers of the force to manipluate the rankings. Gotcha!

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 08:37 AM
So, from the ATP 2009 Rulebook under Repeal of Penalties for ATP 500 series events, it reads:

c) Promotional Activities.
A player who was not on-site when the withdrawal/late withdrawal occurred but
travels to the tournament within the first three (3) days of the main draw, unless
otherwise determined by the ATP, and participates in a reasonable amount of
promotional activities over a two (2) day period, as determined by the ATP, shall
not have the applicable fine and ranking penalties assessed. Players who travel
to the event to complete their promotional activity requirement shall receive
full hospitality from the day of arrival through the night following the completion
of their promotional obligation.

Maybe that will clear up some confusion as to why Federer was not penalized.

seffina
03-05-2009, 08:41 AM
Thanks, woodrow1029. That does clear it up. I don't think this will make much of a difference in the long run, but it's good to know.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 08:58 AM
Federer played the final on 1st february and dubai tourney started on 23rd. This is less than a month. Shouldnt federer get the same 0 pointer--- or is it from start of Australian open jan 19th.
Federer always seems to get the rules ,draw and schedule in his favour- perhaps we can make a movie on this conspiracy theory

Good point. It was just the only explanation that I could come up with, but I was wrong. Woodrow appears to have cleared it up very nicely. I guess Nadal didn't think the trip to Dubai for "promotional purposes" was worth it.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 09:13 AM
Thanks, woodrow1029. That does clear it up. I don't think this will make much of a difference in the long run, but it's good to know.
Really? So one appearance at the players' party would qualify as participating in "a reasonable amount of promotional activities over a 2 day period"? Notwithstanding that he lives there and doesn't have to "travel" at all... Hum still looks like taking advantage of a loop in the system to me but whatever I guess :roll:.

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 09:16 AM
How do you know that he didn't do anything for the tournament on the next day?

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 09:16 AM
So, from the ATP 2009 Rulebook under Repeal of Penalties for ATP 500 series events, it reads:

c) Promotional Activities.
A player who was not on-site when the withdrawal/late withdrawal occurred but
travels to the tournament within the first three (3) days of the main draw, unless
otherwise determined by the ATP, and participates in a reasonable amount of
promotional activities over a two (2) day period, as determined by the ATP, shall
not have the applicable fine and ranking penalties assessed. Players who travel
to the event to complete their promotional activity requirement shall receive
full hospitality from the day of arrival through the night following the completion
of their promotional obligation.

Maybe that will clear up some confusion as to why Federer was not penalized.


That explains it: Those who don't live in Dubai, UAE had their average penalized with a "0". Makes perfect sense. What in the whole, wide world is unfair about that? Let them eat cake. Let them watch HDTV.
http://www.barclaysdubaitennischampionships.com/4/photogallery/2009/aparty/1.jpg
http://www.barclaysdubaitennischampionships.com/4/photogallery/2009/aparty/4.jpg
http://data2.blog.de/media/812/1246812_2510e82f36_m.jpeg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dPQ9FR1NI5f7/610x.jpg

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 09:19 AM
How do you know that he didn't do anything for the tournament on the next day?
Do you? The nature of "promotional" is that people hear about it, no?

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 09:21 AM
Do you? The nature of "promotional" is that people hear about it, no?

People in Dubai. Are you in Dubai? Usually a tennis player doing photo ops doesn't make global news.

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 09:23 AM
I don't see why Nadal or Verdasco should complain about this being unfair. It was written in the rulebook, and it is pretty damn specific about it also.



The only people who should complain are people like us. Why? Because they (Verdasco, Nadal, Federer, etc.) run around play tennis for millions or dollars. Seriously, get a grip. I don't think Nadal or Verdasco REALLY care that much.

King of Aces
03-05-2009, 09:24 AM
Unfair and nonsensical rule. I hope the players who are on the ATP board can do something about it. This situation when players did exactly the same thing and some of them will be penalized whereas others won't shows the absurdity of it and the necessity to review it ASAP.

Its all about money.

Promoters want to force players to play as much as possible regardless of injury so that thy can line their pockets.

The only way to beat this is to simply not care about rankings which really dont matter anyway. The williams sisters undersdtand this. They just keep winning slams and let women like Jankovic be #1.

Sampras also understood this and was ranked very low but preserved himself so that he could compete healthy for the US Open. The promoters lost money because of this.....But Pete won the open!

Rankings dont mean sheet. They simply represent who plays the most. The sytem needs to be changed so that greedy promoters do not ruin the sport.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 09:24 AM
People in Dubai. Are you in Dubai? Usually a tennis player doing photo ops doesn't make global news.
It makes the news on TW, especially if Federer is involved, trust me!

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 09:25 AM
Do you? The nature of "promotional" is that people hear about it, no?
No, I don't know what he did the next day. Your quote implied that you know for a fact that all he did was attend the party. I just quoted what the rule says.

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 09:26 AM
Look in the photos above. The photo of him dressed in local attire was shot during the day. Could have been something he did the next day?

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 09:29 AM
Look in the photos above. The photo of him dressed in local attire was shot during the day. Could have been something he did the next day?
Possibly. I don't know if all the photos were from 2009 though.

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 09:32 AM
Its all about money.

Promoters want to force players to play as much as possible regardless of injury so that thy can line their pockets.

The only way to beat this is to simply not care about rankings which really dont matter anyway. The williams sisters undersdtand this. They just keep winning slams and let women like Jankovic be #1.

Sampras also understood this and was ranked very low but preserved himself so that he could compete healthy for the US Open. The promoters lost money because of this.....But Pete won the open!

Rankings dont mean sheet. They simply represent who plays the most. The sytem needs to be changed so that greedy promoters do not ruin the sport.


Oh please, McEnroe of all people played far more tournaments in a single year than either Federer or Nadal. Connors or Lendl at times would play up towards 20+ tournaments a year.

seffina
03-05-2009, 09:48 AM
Really? So one appearance at the players' party would qualify as participating in "a reasonable amount of promotional activities over a 2 day period"? Notwithstanding that he lives there and doesn't have to "travel" at all... Hum still looks like taking advantage of a loop in the system to me but whatever I guess :roll:.

I didn't say I agreed with or liked the rule, just that I understand now what happened that gave Verdasco a 0 and Federer no penalty.

It isn't Federer's fault that he lives there. He might not have traveled to a far away location, but that's moot right now. Why shouldn't he use the rules to his benefit? It's not a loop in the system, it's part of the system.

The Williams will be doing promotional events instead of attending IW as well. It gives the player a way to get out of being penalized. The promotional thing is trying to make the system more fair instead of less fair. It also states that they will provide all benefits of coming as they would if you had played. It gives injured players who had previously committed to play and the tournament who was depending on their presence (by spending money on advertising and probably selling tickets based on their participation) both a good option. I think that's fair. Unless you're so injured you can't travel.. then I'm sure you can appeal that. Just my opinion.

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 09:50 AM
I didn't say I agreed with or liked the rule, just that I understand now what happened that gave Verdasco a 0 and Federer no penalty.

It isn't Federer's fault that he lives there. He might not have traveled to a far away location, but that's moot right now. Why shouldn't he use the rules to his benefit? It's not a loop in the system, it's part of the system.

The Williams will be doing promotional events instead of attending IW as well. It gives the player a way to get out of being penalized. The promotional thing is trying to make the system more fair instead of less fair. It also states that they will provide all benefits of coming as they would if you had played. I think that's fair. Unless you're so injured you can't travel.. then I'm sure you can appeal that. Just my opinion.


Legitimate injuries that prevent you from playing / traveling are excusable (it's in the rules somewhere, I'm sure woodrow knows where it is). They can't penalize you if you have a broken foot now can they?

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 09:53 AM
Legitimate injuries that prevent you from playing / traveling are excusable (it's in the rules somewhere, I'm sure woodrow knows where it is). They can't penalize you if you have a broken foot now can they?
According to the new rules, yes they can, unless you attend a promotional activity as in the quoted rule above.

at 1000's promotional activities do not take away the penalty.

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 09:55 AM
According to the new rules, yes they can, unless you attend a promotional activity as in the quoted rule above.

at 1000's promotional activities do not take away the penalty.


Well, that's kind of lame. I'm sure you could appeal it somehow though. I think having a broken foot is a legitimate excuse for not attending promotional activities.



The new rules were to prevent players from using "fake" injuries so that they wouldn't have to play in a tournament that they did not want to. I think those who are legitimately injured should get a free pass.

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 09:57 AM
Well, that's kind of lame. I'm sure you could appeal it somehow though. I think having a broken foot is a legitimate excuse for not attending promotional activities.



The new rules were to prevent players from using "fake" injuries so that they wouldn't have to play in a tournament that they did not want to. I think those who are legitimately injured should get a free pass.
There is a section on appealing it also. I can quote it later today.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:08 AM
I don't see why Nadal or Verdasco should complain about this being unfair. It was written in the rulebook, and it is pretty damn specific about it also.



I believe you are flat wrong when you say Nadal or Verdasco complained,
but if you have a link to any such complaint . . . ? ? ? :|

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 10:12 AM
I believe you are flat wrong when you say Nadal or Verdasco complained,
but if you have a link to any such complaint . . . ? ? ? :|
I don't believe that in his post he does say that they did complain. Others suggested that they should complain, and NamRanger is just saying why they shouldn't complain.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Its all about money.

Promoters want to force players to play as much as possible regardless of injury so that thy can line their pockets.

The only way to beat this is to simply not care about rankings which really dont matter anyway. The williams sisters undersdtand this. They just keep winning slams and let women like Jankovic be #1.

Not the williams sisters: They were there sucking up every buck from Dubai and telling other players that they should do the same!


Rankings dont mean sheet. They simply represent who plays the most. The sytem needs to be changed so that greedy promoters do not ruin the sport.

That part I agree with completely, but since the system is run by people who take $$$ from the greedy promoters . . .:mad:

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 10:14 AM
There is a section on appealing it also. I can quote it later today.


Yeah, I know the ATP is a little unreasonable at times, but they aren't that unreasonable. I knew there had to be a way to appeal penalties and such.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by NamRanger
I don't see why Nadal or Verdasco should complain about this being unfair. It was written in the rulebook, and it is pretty damn specific about it also.


I believe you are flat wrong when you say Nadal or Verdasco complained,
but if you have a link to any such complaint . . . ? ? ? :|

I don't believe that in his post he does say that they did complain. Others suggested that they should complain, and NamRanger is just saying why they shouldn't complain.

Really? Who suggested that they should complain then?

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 10:18 AM
Find where it says that Nam Ranger said that they did complain.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:22 AM
OBVIOUS SOLUTION:

Do not commit to play in any tournament in Dubai unless you, like Roger, live there.

Very, very simple. :mrgreen:

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't believe that in his post he does say that they did complain. Others suggested that they should complain, and NamRanger is just saying why they shouldn't complain.

Find where it says that Nam Ranger said that they did complain.

I already quoted Nam Ranger's post, woodrow1029. And you butted in between my post to him. Therefore, now it's your turn to put up or shut up and quote the "others" who you claimed (in your butt-in-sky post) "suggested that they should complain."

seffina
03-05-2009, 10:28 AM
at 1000's promotional activities do not take away the penalty.

They don't take away the points penalty, but they do take away the fines and the suspensions. Which is fair, IMO.

I also just saw that once you play certain amount of Masters matches on the tour or are of a certain age, you don't have to play as many Masters. Interesting.

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 10:31 AM
I already quoted Nam Ranger's post, woodrow1029. And you butted in between my post to him. Therefore, now it's your turn to put up or shut up and quote the "others" who you claimed (in your butt-in-sky post) "suggested that they should complain."
You can find it in here whoever suggested going to the ATP Player Council, (which by the way Nadal is on). All I am saying, is in NamRanger's post, he says they should NOT complain, not that they should.

NamRanger
03-05-2009, 10:31 AM
I already quoted Nam Ranger's post, woodrow1029. And you butted in between my post to him. Therefore, now it's your turn to put up or shut up and quote the "others" who you claimed (in your butt-in-sky post) "suggested that they should complain."



They keyword is "should" which implies that they have not complained yet. Others are implying (such as many Nadal fans) that Nadal and Verdasco should complain.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:34 AM
They keyword is "should" which implies that they have not complained yet. Others are implying (such as many Nadal fans) that Nadal and Verdasco should complain.

link please :)

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 10:35 AM
They don't take away the points penalty, but they do take away the fines and the suspensions. Which is fair, IMO.

I also just saw that once you play certain amount of Masters matches on the tour or are of a certain age, you don't have to play as many Masters. Interesting.
correct...

seffina
03-05-2009, 10:39 AM
correct...

Heh. I just downloaded the rules book (as I'm an expert in wasting time), so I'm randomly listing things that I find interesting. I'll stop. :)

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:40 AM
Legitimate injuries that prevent you from playing / traveling are excusable (it's in the rules somewhere, I'm sure woodrow knows where it is). They can't penalize you if you have a broken foot now can they?

Apparently, they take away your rating points whether or not you have a legitimate injury UNLESS YOU PROMOTE THEIR EVENT within what? 2 days? even if you have to get up off your sick bed or walk with crutches or fly haflway around the world right before Davis Cup to do it.

I actually got to hit with him today in Las Vegas at the international tennis center.

Anyway he has a stress facture ever since his Nadal match at the AO. He will pull out of Dubai but it has not been officially announced yet.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 10:46 AM
They don't take away the points penalty, but they do take away the fines and the suspensions. Which is fair, IMO.

I also just saw that once you play certain amount of Masters matches on the tour or are of a certain age, you don't have to play as many Masters. Interesting.

I don't think it's fair if the player has a legitimate injury, but either way the obvious solution is:

Simply do not enter any tournament prior to 30 days before it starts.
Better yet, always wait until the last minute before entering any 500 or 1000 tournament.


Because otherwise you're liable to get a "0/zero" figured into your average if for some reason you happen to have a legitimate reason for withdrawing and don't happen to want to fly half-way around the world in order to donate your likeness and image to someplace in the boonies.

egn
03-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Ain't it the truth? So sad.

In response to your idiocy it is a real and Nando also recieved punishment.

Besides in case you have not noticed well you probably haven't even looked at Fed's schedule at the moment he will be penalized as he only had 3 500 series events and now he only has 2. So Nadal should not even complain. Fed is not grabbing that number 1 ranking unless Nadal plays like crap. He isn't even playing Monte Carlo. So what is with all this conspiracy? Fed will get penalized as he will fail to meet the 500 series requirement.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 04:14 PM
It makes the news on TW, especially if Federer is involved, trust me!

Really? If Federer is hanging around some part of the world his day to day activities are chronicled on TW. Please show where this happens.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Rankings dont mean sheet. They simply represent who plays the most. The sytem needs to be changed so that greedy promoters do not ruin the sport.

Did you not notice that they changed the rankings system this year? It heavily favors players that perform at the masters and slams (like say, Nadal for instance).

Nadal fans are amazing. Since he is 22 and struggling with injuries you want the rankings to change for him, you think they should abolish hardcourts, what next? Maybe they should move the USO to Madrid.

woodrow1029
03-05-2009, 04:26 PM
Did you not notice that they changed the rankings system this year? It heavily favors players that perform at the masters and slams (like say, Nadal for instance).

Nadal fans are amazing. Since he is 22 and struggling with injuries you want the rankings to change for him, you think they should abolish hardcourts, what next? Maybe they should move the USO to Madrid.
Or Mallorca??

shawn1122
03-05-2009, 05:03 PM
1. Federer promoted the event.
2. Verdasco didn't.
3. Nadal has played tournaments this month.

That's all you need to know to understand how this happened. There is no conspiracy or any ********* ******** like that. They made this rule because players were blowing off these level 500 tournaments as if they were nothing, with their fake injuries and such. If you think this rule is unfair, well the players brought this on themselves.

Rules change. It's up to you to figure out the best way to adapt to them and Federer showed here that he is clearly the most experienced with the ATP ranking system (not anything to brag about, since he is the oldest of the three). Yes, Nadal may be genuinely injured, but the rule is trying to separate real injuries from fake ones by using the amount of time spent away from competitive play. It may not be the best way to do it, it will fail sometimes, but it seems to be the best they have for now.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Really? If Federer is hanging around some part of the world his day to day activities are chronicled on TW. Please show where this happens.
All the time! Right now the buzz is that he's hitting balls with Cahill as a trial period before hiring him as a coach...

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:09 PM
1. Federer promoted the event.
2. Verdasco didn't.
3. Nadal has played tournaments this month.

That's all you need to know to understand how this happened. There is no conspiracy or any ********* ******** like that. They made this rule because players were blowing off these level 500 tournaments as if they were nothing, with their fake injuries and such. If you think this rule is unfair, well the players brought this on themselves.

Rules change. It's up to you to figure out the best way to adapt to them and Federer showed here that he is clearly the most experienced with the ATP ranking system (not anything to brag about, since he is the oldest of the three). Yes, Nadal may be genuinely injured, but the rule is trying to separate real injuries from fake ones by using the amount of time spent away from competitive play. It may not be the best way to do it, it will fail sometimes, but it seems to be the best they have for now.
If that's the best they can do, it seems quite terrible, we're not talking about a partly efficient rule here but about a rule that achieves the exact opposite to what it's designed for (encourage the players to withdraw more rather than less)! Anyway it's up to the players themselves to complain about it, if they don't, then I guess they're fine with it...

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:10 PM
In response to your idiocy it is a real and Nando also recieved punishment.

Besides in case you have not noticed well you probably haven't even looked at Fed's schedule at the moment he will be penalized as he only had 3 500 series events and now he only has 2. So Nadal should not even complain. Fed is not grabbing that number 1 ranking unless Nadal plays like crap. He isn't even playing Monte Carlo. So what is with all this conspiracy? Fed will get penalized as he will fail to meet the 500 series requirement.
Nadal is not complaining (AFAIK). WE are the ones saying that rule is weird.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Well, that's kind of lame. I'm sure you could appeal it somehow though. I think having a broken foot is a legitimate excuse for not attending promotional activities.



The new rules were to prevent players from using "fake" injuries so that they wouldn't have to play in a tournament that they did not want to. I think those who are legitimately injured should get a free pass.
Oh but there's no such thing as a legitimate injury anymore. Actually I assume if your injury is fake it will be much easier to travel around the globe and do some parading for the sponsors, the players who are really injured or very sick will undoubtedly prefer staying put rather than risk making it worse by running around for the sole sake of some clownish promotional affairs. So the new system supports and rewards liars and fakers 100%. Good job.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 06:20 PM
All the time! Right now the buzz is that he's hitting balls with Cahill as a trial period before hiring him as a coach...

See that's news. "Federer attends luncheon" (which is probably the sort of thing he was doing in Dubai) doesn't usually come up around here.

veroniquem
03-05-2009, 06:24 PM
They don't take away the points penalty, but they do take away the fines and the suspensions. Which is fair, IMO.

I also just saw that once you play certain amount of Masters matches on the tour or are of a certain age, you don't have to play as many Masters. Interesting.
What age would that be? 27? (Just joking :))

shawn1122
03-05-2009, 06:36 PM
If that's the best they can do, it seems quite terrible, we're not talking about a partly efficient rule here but about a rule that achieves the exact opposite to what it's designed for (encourage the players to withdraw more rather than less)! Anyway it's up to the players themselves to complain about it, if they don't, then I guess they're fine with it...

It does not encourage players to play less. If players play less, then they lose potential points for every tournament they miss.

In other words, skipping three tournaments intentionally to ensure that you don't get a point penalty on the fourth is illogical, and it is not something someone would want to do intentionally.

egn
03-05-2009, 06:37 PM
Nadal is not complaining (AFAIK). WE are the ones saying that rule is weird.

Sorry there was supposed to be a fans after Nadal.

NandoMania
03-05-2009, 06:56 PM
1. Federer promoted the event.
2. Verdasco didn't.
3. Nadal has played tournaments this month.

That's all you need to know to understand how this happened. There is no conspiracy or any ********* ******** like that. They made this rule because players were blowing off these level 500 tournaments as if they were nothing, with their fake injuries and such. If you think this rule is unfair, well the players brought this on themselves.



How *********** ******** of you! The "event" was in boontown ****hole, Roger's Residence.

Nonetheless, the solution is quite obvious: Any player who wants to avoid having a ZERO averaged into his ranking should simply wait until the last minute before entering any 500 or 1000 ATP tournament.

That is 100% in keeping with this type of elitist rule made for multimillionaires. Any player who is not a multimillionaire cannot afford to enter a tournament any earlier.

p.s. Your #3 is f-a-l-s-e.

imajica77
03-05-2009, 07:12 PM
For Christ sakes will you babes stop going on about this. The rules are the rules. Every player is subject to them. Get a life and stop trying to live yours thru Nadal. Besides, since you seem to think Nadal is so much better the Federer then you shouldn't worry that he will loose he number one ranking.

Love Game
03-05-2009, 07:34 PM
For ***** sakes will you babes stop going on about this. The rules are the rules. Every player is subject to them. Get a life and stop trying to live yours thru Nadal. Besides, since you seem to think Nadal is so much better the Federer then you shouldn't worry that he will loose he number one ranking.

Please do not blaspheme.

And please stop attacking other members by calling them names.

The issue is whether or not atp players should register for any atp tournament any earlier than they absolutely have to in order to avoid having a big, fat zero/O averaged in to their rankings, just in case they are actually injured or not as wealthy as the top 5 players to fly half-way around the world to do a commercial for the super rich of the world who use tennis as a method of promoting tourism.

there's no need to call people babies or to insult anybody's religion about it. as joe friday says: stick to the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

shawn1122
03-05-2009, 08:01 PM
How *********** ******** of you! The "event" was in boontown ****hole, Roger's Residence.

Nonetheless, the solution is quite obvious: Any player who wants to avoid having a ZERO averaged into his ranking should simply wait until the last minute before entering any 500 or 1000 ATP tournament.

That is 100% in keeping with this type of elitist rule made for multimillionaires. Any player who is not a multimillionaire cannot afford to enter a tournament any earlier.

p.s. Your #3 is f-a-l-s-e.

#3 is true, the Rotterdam final was played on the 15th of February.

And is it Federer's fault that Dubai is his residence? No. Saying this rule is stupid just because it happened to work for Federer and against Nadal in this ONE situation doesnt make sense.

Nadal is as guilty as every other player when it comes to last minute pull outs. He is paying the price for it now in ranking points, I'm sure Federer will pay for it too sooner or later.

edberg505
03-05-2009, 08:04 PM
Please do not blaspheme.

And please stop attacking other members by calling them names.

The issue is whether or not atp players should register for any atp tournament any earlier than they absolutely have to in order to avoid having a big, fat zero/O averaged in to their rankings, just in case they are actually injured or not as wealthy as the top 5 players to fly half-way around the world to do a commercial for the super rich of the world who use tennis as a method of promoting tourism.

there's no need to call people babies or to insult anybody's religion about it. as joe friday says: stick to the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

LOL, I'm pretty sure that word that is censored is not the word you think it is. I may be wrong though.

Love Game
03-05-2009, 08:14 PM
LOL, I'm pretty sure that word that is censored is not the word you think it is. I may be wrong though.

No need to guess. You can see exactly what it was by reading it. I simply refused to repeat the blasphemy by including it in the quote.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 08:21 PM
No need to guess. You can see exactly what it was by reading it. I simply refused to repeat the blasphemy by including it in the quote.

Not everyone here is an evangelical christian. If the mods don't censor it then you have no right to expect someone to not say it.

edberg505
03-05-2009, 08:26 PM
No need to guess. You can see exactly what it was by reading it. I simply refused to repeat the blasphemy by including it in the quote.

Well, I've seen the word/name you think it is typed several times so it can't be that word.

edmondsm
03-05-2009, 08:28 PM
Well, I've seen the word/name you think it is typed several times so it can't be that word.

You don't understand. Love Game censored the post herself. Go back and read the original, it was not censored by TW.

edberg505
03-05-2009, 08:29 PM
You don't understand. Love Game censored the post herself. Go back and read the original, it was not censored by TW.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, pardon me. LOL. I didn't notice. I just looked at the number of asterisk. Thanks for pointing that out.

Gen
03-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Rules should be arranged in such a way that they work in the same manner for everybody. In this particular case Nadal who was really injured in Rotterdam is penalized, and Federer with his alleged back injury (which doesn't prevent him from training) came to the player's party, kissed Murray, infected him with mono, and escaped 0-pointer. Wonderful!

woodrow1029
03-06-2009, 07:45 AM
Rules should be arranged in such a way that they work in the same manner for everybody. In this particular case Nadal who was really injured in Rotterdam is penalized, and Federer with his alleged back injury (which doesn't prevent him from training) came to the player's party, kissed Murray, infected him with mono, and escaped 0-pointer. Wonderful!
Grow up troll.

TheTruth
03-06-2009, 08:58 PM
In response to your idiocy it is a real and Nando also recieved punishment.

Besides in case you have not noticed well you probably haven't even looked at Fed's schedule at the moment he will be penalized as he only had 3 500 series events and now he only has 2. So Nadal should not even complain. Fed is not grabbing that number 1 ranking unless Nadal plays like crap. He isn't even playing Monte Carlo. So what is with all this conspiracy? Fed will get penalized as he will fail to meet the 500 series requirement.

I didn't bother to read your response since you started out by calling me an idiot. To me, anyone who starts a debate with an insult isn't worthy of a discussion. In the future come correct, or not at all. I don't have to be insulted by you.

TheTruth
03-06-2009, 09:01 PM
Oh but there's no such thing as a legitimate injury anymore. Actually I assume if your injury is fake it will be much easier to travel around the globe and do some parading for the sponsors, the players who are really injured or very sick will undoubtedly prefer staying put rather than risk making it worse by running around for the sole sake of some clownish promotional affairs. So the new system supports and rewards liars and fakers 100%. Good job.

So true......

TheTruth
03-06-2009, 09:09 PM
This new "rule" is so obvious it's pathetic. The good thing is, all the shenanigans in the world aren't going to change anything. The more they "cheat" for Roger, the more he seems to lose. So cheat on, organisers. You won't stop Rafa!

luckyboy1300
03-06-2009, 09:14 PM
This new "rule" is so obvious it's pathetic. The good thing is, all the shenanigans in the world aren't going to change anything. The more they "cheat" for Roger, the more he seems to lose. So cheat on, organisers. You won't stop Rafa!

hahaha so funny, so epic, so TYPICAL

egn
03-06-2009, 09:20 PM
This new "rule" is so obvious it's pathetic. The good thing is, all the shenanigans in the world aren't going to change anything. The more they "cheat" for Roger, the more he seems to lose. So cheat on, organisers. You won't stop Rafa!

How is it cheating for Roger? All players are given the rule book. Rafa knows the rule. How is it so obvious it's pathetic. They made this simply to get Nadal. You are telling me that a guy sat around in a room and was like okay there are going to be these 500 tournaments that Nadal is going to play back to back but he is not going to be able to play the second one and therefore we slap a big 0 in his ranking spot. I mean come on the rule simply in state in the rule book. There is no attempt to cheat there. Rafa got the bad end of it, but I doubt it was simply made to screw him. If they did not penalize Rafa how about Nando? He got hit also? He would be like wtf? I don't doubt that they are all, Roger, Rafa and Nano injuried but at the same time they put a rule into place and they need to enforce it. The rule makes sense. Players book tournaments and can't ditch them all. Roddick is also getting penalized. They are simply trying to make players play a certain amount of tournaments and avoid fake injuries or last minute back outs. Problem is there will be times it will hurt those legitimately withdrawing. But does Nadal even have more than 4 500 events scheduled?

Oh and apologizes for the idiocy remark it was out of line.

veroniquem
03-07-2009, 11:45 AM
This new "rule" is so obvious it's pathetic. The good thing is, all the shenanigans in the world aren't going to change anything. The more they "cheat" for Roger, the more he seems to lose. So cheat on, organisers. You won't stop Rafa!
In the form he's showing right now I don't think a tsunami would stop him, much less a few incoherent rules!

TheTruth
03-07-2009, 01:29 PM
How is it cheating for Roger? All players are given the rule book. Rafa knows the rule. How is it so obvious it's pathetic. They made this simply to get Nadal. You are telling me that a guy sat around in a room and was like okay there are going to be these 500 tournaments that Nadal is going to play back to back but he is not going to be able to play the second one and therefore we slap a big 0 in his ranking spot. I mean come on the rule simply in state in the rule book. There is no attempt to cheat there. Rafa got the bad end of it, but I doubt it was simply made to screw him. If they did not penalize Rafa how about Nando? He got hit also? He would be like wtf? I don't doubt that they are all, Roger, Rafa and Nano injuried but at the same time they put a rule into place and they need to enforce it. The rule makes sense. Players book tournaments and can't ditch them all. Roddick is also getting penalized. They are simply trying to make players play a certain amount of tournaments and avoid fake injuries or last minute back outs. Problem is there will be times it will hurt those legitimately withdrawing. But does Nadal even have more than 4 500 events scheduled?

Oh and apologizes for the idiocy remark it was out of line.

I see a lot of cheating going on in the ATP. I called for the challenge system years ago. Sometimes the cheating was blatant. Sometimes it was subtle.

Do I think people sit in board rooms and make decisions that affect some and not all? Absolutely.

Thanks for this. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't be civil. I appreciate it.

edmondsm
03-07-2009, 03:11 PM
This new "rule" is so obvious it's pathetic. The good thing is, all the shenanigans in the world aren't going to change anything. The more they "cheat" for Roger, the more he seems to lose. So cheat on, organisers. You won't stop Rafa!

Ah yes. So fair and objective you are.

Safinator_1
03-07-2009, 03:49 PM
Your rantings and complaints wont do a thing to change this Corrupt and injustice system unless you are all suicide rs o.0.

Other than that just pray that justice will prevail and Federer his precious 500 points too its only fair

Zaragoza
03-09-2009, 04:23 PM
It's a Conspiracy against Rafito... poor boy...


Those darn ATP managers creating rules just to tick him of!


ps:mediocrity is questioning the rules when they dont suit you! but going deaf, dumb and blid when they are ok for you!

I expected this kind of "insightful" reply from you to my reasonable post and you didn't disappoint. This is just another display of mediocrity from you, you can't help it. Most people here agreed it's a ridiculous rule.

It's so difficult to find things to fill that empty space between Acapulco and DC/IW.

ATP actually makes it too easy with their rules (for those who are interested on ranking rules, which apparently is not your case).

Federer got knocked out in the first or second round last year by Murray so he didn't actually have any points on Dubai anyway. therefore a 0-pointer made no difference

Yes, it still makes a difference because he can add his 4 best results to his ranking. Nadal and Verdasco lost the right to add their 4 best results.

Verdasco hasn't played either since the AO because he was injured and he got the 0-pointer penalty, Federer didn't. Why the difference? Because Federer is living in Dubai so he could go to some promotional activity whereas Verdasco lives too far away.
And see what the rule says: "A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties".
The Australian Open final was on Feb.1st and the post-Dubai rankings were 28 days later (not even 30) so how could they even apply that rule right after Dubai?

"A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties."

Is Federer out of competition for 30 or more days? Yes.
Is Nadal out of competition for 30 or more days? No.

Here is your answer.

But you will agree that if some player is legitimately injured and can't play but he recovers in less than 30 days, he should not receive any penalty for this. That's what happened to Nadal after Rotterdam.
And Verdasco, like Federer, hasn't played since the AO but he got the penalty because he lives too far from Dubai and it's not reasonable to ask him to travel there just for some promotional activity. It's not a fair rule and that was the point of my OP. It affected and will affect more players than Nadal.

Besides in case you have not noticed well you probably haven't even looked at Fed's schedule at the moment he will be penalized as he only had 3 500 series events and now he only has 2. So Nadal should not even complain. Fed is not grabbing that number 1 ranking unless Nadal plays like crap. He isn't even playing Monte Carlo. So what is with all this conspiracy? Fed will get penalized as he will fail to meet the 500 series requirement.

Federer will not be penalized. It's his choice to play or not those tournaments, that's not a penalty.
Nadal, Verdasco and others have been penalized for being injured and not playing. By the way, most of us are just saying that the current rule is unfair, not that there's a conspiracy.

Oh but there's no such thing as a legitimate injury anymore. Actually I assume if your injury is fake it will be much easier to travel around the globe and do some parading for the sponsors, the players who are really injured or very sick will undoubtedly prefer staying put rather than risk making it worse by running around for the sole sake of some clownish promotional affairs. So the new system supports and rewards liars and fakers 100%. Good job.

Agreed.

Nadal is as guilty as every other player when it comes to last minute pull outs. He is paying the price for it now in ranking points, I'm sure Federer will pay for it too sooner or later.

Pulling out because of a legit injury makes someone guilty?

Problem is there will be times it will hurt those legitimately withdrawing. But does Nadal even have more than 4 500 events scheduled?

Davis Cup and (I think) Montecarlo count as 500 events despite giving more than 500 points to the winner.
So if Nadal plays Davis Cup, Rotterdam, Montecarlo and Barcelona only his 3 best results will count, and if he doesn't play a 500 event after the USO only his 2 best results will count. He can lose many ranking points earned on the court.