Extent of racket drop [Archive]

gzhpcu

03-07-2009, 10:43 PM

I have been discussing with our local tennis pro the extent of the racket drop on the serve. I have been trying to get my racket down lower on the backswing for some time now.

My pro said that there were some pros in the past who did not have as great a racket drop as, say Roddick. Apart from biomechanical aspects, such as bone structure, flexibility, etc., the question is how much the additional racket drop actually contributes to serve speed.

An example my pro cited was Andre Gomez, who won Roland Garros in 1990 against Agassi.
If you watch this link carefully, you will see the extent of the racket drop he does not bend his elbow so much, so that the racket drop is not that pronounced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyWLtpYsen8

It seems to me, that perhaps, the question might be similar to the various backswing options on, say the forehand. On the forehand, there is the big loopy backswing, and the abbreviated straight back backswing. Similarly, on the serve you have the abbreviated take back versus the big circular backswing.

Irrespective of which backswing is chosen on the forehand, a point of consideration is the resulting backdrop position. In men's professional tennis, the take back is in general less than those of the women. Just compare Federer's backpoint to that of Sharapova. And the men certainly hit harder than the women (yes, I know they are stronger...). This seems to be related to the entire forehand swing in modern tennis have more of a linear trajectory and less of a circular trajectory (seen from above).

Now, what I wonder is if the same applies to the serve? How much does an extra 6 to 12 inches of racket drop impact the speed of the serve? Gomez was a big server, who did not get a racket drop anywhere close to Roddick. Also, another difference I seem to detect, is that Roddick's ultimate backdrop position is closer to his body, than Gomez's is. Gomez seems to compensate the lesser backdrop extent, by a larger distance of his backdrop from his body.

Any opinons?

J011yroger

03-08-2009, 12:40 AM

Interesting topic. Of course I don't have any sort of concrete answer for you, but I will stick around for the discussion.

J

Lotto

03-08-2009, 04:22 AM

Compared to Sampras and Roddick, Federer also doesn't have the biggest racquet drop......

I don't have an answer either but I presume that the deeper the racquet drop, the more time there is for the racquet to gain speed?

I have no idea though to be hoenst. Maybe one of the teaching pros could answer this.

larry10s

03-08-2009, 04:38 AM

without the ability to slo mo and stop frame a video it is impossible to asses racquet drop adequately imho. if you think about it this way at the racquet drop the butt cap is pointing at the ball. the distance the racquet travels allows it to gain speed and momentum . think of it as the length of the dragstrip you can race on. the longer the distance the more speed you can acquire. also the racquet drop is also obtained by the proper sequence of the kinetic chain . the leg thrust up timing of all the parts when done correctly help to "push the shouder down and maximize racquet drop . so if you have a great racquet drop you probably have the timing of the other parts of the serve in sync. last but not least even if you can find 1 or 2 player with good serve ( i dont ever recall hearing andes gommez as a great server) and poor racquet drop, all the GREAT servers had a GREAT racquet drop position. that is why it is so important. IMHO

J011yroger

03-08-2009, 05:11 AM

^^^ Agreed, and even on normal video frame by frame, it is hard to find the deepest point of racquet drop.

Here are 4 frames extracted from 2 serves at the end of this video.

http://vimeo.com/3514338

http://i39.tinypic.com/6dr3ph.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/35ku7ic.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/ve0h6s.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2qxyzvl.jpg

Only the 2nd one is close to max drop.

I will try to get some high speed footage when I start serving outside, and that should be tremendously better for seeing.

J

Leoboomanu

03-08-2009, 05:56 AM

gzhpcu

03-08-2009, 07:14 AM

I don't even believe one should be conscious with the 'racquet drop'...
just get to the trophy position (no matter how you start it, no matter what stance)...
the 'racquet drop' will happen!!!
as you push forward and up with your legs...
as your body recoils powerfully towards the ball...
the racket will 'lag' and drop "usefully" to create the needed head speed...
if the racquet doesn't drop, you're doing something wrong...
Gomez has a racquet drop sir...

Yes, sure Gomez has a racket drop, but by far not as much as Roddick has. I have often heard that the racket drop just happens if you are loose and you get to the trophy position, but IMHO, it is not that all easy for all persons. I am not saying the racket drop won't happen, I am just asking about the extent of the racket drop. Gomez's seems to go down to about a foot less than Roddick does. So, my question is if that extra 6 inches to a foot makes that much of a difference....

gzhpcu

03-08-2009, 07:16 AM

I don't have an answer either but I presume that the deeper the racquet drop, the more time there is for the racquet to gain speed?

Yes, but drawing a parallel to the modern forehand, which is linear, the racket take back is not that extreme as it used to be.

larry10s

03-09-2009, 09:10 AM

Yes, sure Gomez has a racket drop, but by far not as much as Roddick has. I have often heard that the racket drop just happens if you are loose and you get to the trophy position, but IMHO, it is not that all easy for all persons. I am not saying the racket drop won't happen, I am just asking about the extent of the racket drop. Gomez's seems to go down to about a foot less than Roddick does. So, my question is if that extra 6 inches to a foot makes that much of a difference....
YES YES YES YES. DID I SAY YES?

larry10s

03-09-2009, 09:17 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w watch how low his racquet gets.

larry10s

03-09-2009, 09:20 AM

heres another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1iVOc0-e

larry10s

03-09-2009, 09:24 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1iVOc0-e youll like this one too

gzhpcu

03-09-2009, 10:28 PM

The first link is of Roddick's forehand, not his serve. The other two links don't work.

gzhpcu

03-09-2009, 10:30 PM

YES YES YES YES. DID I SAY YES?
Just to be clear: am not questioning the necessity of the racket drop, just, whether or not getting a bit more drop really makes such a big difference...

larry10s

03-10-2009, 06:07 AM

^^^^^^^ see answer above. sorry about the links will look again and post them. the racquet drop and time in and out of it along with propoer mechanics (timing of the kinetic chain) is very important.the biggest difference between club players , good servers and great servers is how well they do the aforementioned things

larry10s

03-10-2009, 06:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI the racquet gets down to the bottom of his shorts leg!!!!!!!!!!!!

larry10s

03-10-2009, 06:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1iVOc0-eI

larry10s

03-10-2009, 07:03 AM

the position where the upper arm is parrallel to the ground or even better the elbow is higher and the racquet is along the right side if your body perpendicular to the ground the top of the hoop gets down to around the upper thigh and parralel to your body makes for a great racquet drop position. if only i could do it!!!!!

J011yroger

03-10-2009, 02:18 PM

Djokovicfan4life

03-10-2009, 02:38 PM

^^^ If you watch this vid of pete recently, his racquet drop isn't nearly as deep.

I don't think it is any deeper than mine.

Will try to film some of my own serves in high speed for a comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&NR=1

J

This, on the other hand, almost made it past knee height! Yowsers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI&feature=related

basil J

03-10-2009, 05:42 PM

I actually had some video analysis done on my serve last year and found that My serve had a very minimal raquet drop and was mostly wrist and followthrough. I was quite shockd because I could get some decent pace even with a flawed motion. My pro had me practice my ideal service motion with no ball over & over again, then had me toss the ball high enough to finish my motion & swing under the ball before the ball came down in the strike zone.
He then had me practice serves starting in the racquet drop position , my fist by my ear, butt of the racquet facing up, focusing on a relaxed arm, constant eye on the ball through contact and relaxed breathing, using my knee bend and momentum into the court as my basis for power.
It took about 3 months of working on this and now I have a nice natural racquet drop and relaxed serve with more pop, spin and variety than I had before. When I warm up my serve, I always start serving from the drop position and then work up to a full motion. It really worked wonders for me and helped out my shoulder as well.

Nellie

03-10-2009, 06:08 PM

I have read in articles about Sampras's serve that with the backscratch, each extra inch was an extra mph on the serve. I do not know the basis for that number or the physics behind it.

larry10s

03-10-2009, 06:29 PM

larry10s

03-10-2009, 06:33 PM

This, on the other hand, almost made it past knee height! Yowsers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI&feature=related
in both videos he gets his upper arm parralel to the court etc. if you look at the second time he serves in the first video his drop is down around the thigh.. another difference between the 2 videos is samoras is around 35 in the first one and looks like in his 20's in the second one. as your flexibility deceases its tougher to get as deep,a drop

treo

03-10-2009, 06:50 PM

Both Roddick and Hingis have deep racquet drops. One has a great serve, the other doesn't.

gzhpcu

03-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Both Roddick and Hingis have deep racquet drops. One has a great serve, the other doesn't.
Right. The question is, if for us mortal players, striving for, say an extra 6 inches of racket drop, will we achieve an appreciable increase in speed/spin by doing so?

Another question is, how much of a difference is there between a very deep racket drop, with the racket parallel to the right side of the body, as opposed to a less deep drop (say 6 inches), with the racket farther away from the body?

GPB

03-10-2009, 09:44 PM

I practiced today with a heavier racket than I've gotten used to, and I had to FORCE myself to have a nice, deep racket drop in order to keep any serves in. It reminded me of this thread so I figured I'd chime in.

gzhpcu

03-10-2009, 10:45 PM

Edberg had a great drop:
tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsbgM9-PgCU

blue12

03-11-2009, 12:13 AM

^^^ If you watch this vid of pete recently, his racquet drop isn't nearly as deep.

I don't think it is any deeper than mine.

Will try to film some of my own serves in high speed for a comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHO7dnt2eY&NR=1

J

How are the lights in that facility? Looks like all florescent bulbs. I've never seen that before.

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 12:44 AM

Both Roddick and Hingis have deep racquet drops. One has a great serve, the other doesn't.
Here is a video of her serve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvQQydsd3tg

Despite the very good drop, her serve was not particularly strong on the WTA tour...

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 04:01 AM

How are the lights in that facility? Looks like all florescent bulbs. I've never seen that before.

Terrific. I love direct lighting. I play so much better under it.

J

larry10s

03-11-2009, 07:12 AM

larry10s

03-11-2009, 07:17 AM

Puma

03-11-2009, 07:44 AM

although martina was not known as a great serve she could still hit a 100mph serve.to be a great server you have to have placement, disguise ,nerves etc. that is not the op question. when you do not get a great drop the racquet comes up more across your back on the way up so you are appraoching the contact differently than when coming into the hit from the slot. some of us (me) due to flexibility issues may never get to sampras's position. also the drop is not a position you can force yourself into to do it correctly. it happens partly from the leg drive and upward thrust causing the shoulder to drop when the timing is correct. can a player have a decent serve without a great drop .yes. but if the drop is talked about so much dont you guess it is important . last but not least do you know a great server that does not have a great drop.

I agree 100% here.....Same stuff about racket drop is true in golf as well. What I am referring to in golf is called, "Lag". If during the downswing of the golf club you stop the camera when the players hands are near his right pocket, notice how high up the club head is. This is called "lag" in a golf swing. There are several pro players who have unbelievable lag. Couples, that spainish kid, even Hogan has trememdous lag in his swing.

Notice that everyone who swings a golf club will have lag, or some. At least someone with a somewhat orthodox swing. Just like Tennis, someone with a somewhat orthodox serve will have some racket drop.

As Larrys says above, the drop is caused by several factors including flexibility and needs great timing as well. He also asks the question, do you know a great server who doesn't have a great drop? Well, the same question can be asked in golf as well. Do you know a great ball striker (and powerfull) who doesn't have great lag?

You guys may not know or care much about the golf swing and thats ok. But there are some comparisons between the mechanis of a tennis stroke and a golf swing that are quite intriguing to me.

So, I think for tennis in regards to the drop, the best thing to do is focus on perfecting the mechanics of the stroke. Athletic ability, flexibility and how far you proceed with the process will be the limiting factor for racket drop. My .02

blue12

03-11-2009, 09:23 AM

Terrific. I love direct lighting. I play so much better under it.

J

Yeah I've never played in an indoor facility that had good lighting. Where is that club at?

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 11:16 AM

still great serving is more than just racquet drop .if you look at feds serve he does not get as deep a drop as sampras or roddick for example (still upper arm fairly parrallel racquet along right side of body) but does so many other parts so well diguise, placement, wicked kicker etc that what makes him such an effective server. i am sure if his racquet drop were deeper he would add afew more mph to his serve.
I agree that great serving is more than the racket drop. I just wanted to isolate this one element, and try and figure out what an improvement of, say 6 inches, contributes to serve speed/spin.

I pulled the Gomez video I posted onto my PC so that I could look at it frame-by-frame. Even though the quality is not very good, I can still tell that his drop seems to be almost a foot less than that of Sampras, but that the distance of the racket head from his body seems to be appreciably greater. Can this greater distance from the body, compensate the lesser racket drop?

5263

03-11-2009, 11:27 AM

Just to be clear: am not questioning the necessity of the racket drop, just, whether or not getting a bit more drop really makes such a big difference...

probably 10-15% if you are doing the other fundamentals correctly.

I am convinced it, along with delayed elbow extension are the critical aspects that separate the top MPH PRO servers from the upper, but more avg MPH PRO servers.

Most all pros have nearly all the other fundamentals in place, but drop and delay are nearly always weaker in the servers who don't break the 130 mark regularly.
To contrast, i have never observed a PRO server that regularly hit over 130, that didn't have excellent drop and delay.

5263

03-11-2009, 11:29 AM

I agree that great serving is more than the racket drop. I just wanted to isolate this one element, and try and figure out what an improvement of, say 6 inches, contributes to serve speed/spin.

I pulled the Gomez video I posted onto my PC so that I could look at it frame-by-frame. Even though the quality is not very good, I can still tell that his drop seems to be almost a foot less than that of Sampras, but that the distance of the racket head from his body seems to be appreciably greater. Can this greater distance from the body, compensate the lesser racket drop?

what is his serve speed on that serve??
that would be critical for the vid to be of use in your study.

5263

03-11-2009, 11:35 AM

Here is a video of her serve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvQQydsd3tg

Despite the very good drop, her serve was not particularly strong on the WTA tour...

slow swing and slightly early elbow extension, destroy most on what he excellent racket drop would give her.

I can get racket drop and not swing fast and of course the serve will be slow.

But can anyone not get the drop and delay, but serve fast? that is where the truth lies.

5263

03-11-2009, 11:38 AM

I actually had some video analysis done on my serve last year and found that My serve had a very minimal raquet drop and was mostly wrist and followthrough. I was quite shockd because I could get some decent pace even with a flawed motion. My pro had me practice my ideal service motion with no ball over & over again, then had me toss the ball high enough to finish my motion & swing under the ball before the ball cam down in the strike zone. He then had me practice serves starting in the racquet drop position , my fist by my ear, butt of the racquet facing up, focusing on a relaxed arm, constant eye on the ball through contact and relaxed breathing, using my knee bend anfdmomentum into the court as my basis for power. It took about 3 months of working on this and now I have a nice natural racquet drop and relaxed serve with more pop, spin and variety than I had before. When I warm up my serve, I always start serving from the drop position and then work up to a full motion. It really worked wonders for me and helped out my shoulder as well.

Sweet! nice work.

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 11:58 AM

what is his serve speed on that serve??
that would be critical for the vid to be of use in your study.
Hard to say. He did reach a number 4 ranking in the world, and beat Agassi in the French open final of 1990.

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 12:07 PM

larry10s

03-11-2009, 12:13 PM

its apples and oranges .serves and forehands . good luck on your quest i cant take the resistance anymore.

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 12:15 PM

its apples and oranges .serves and forehands . good luck on your quest i cant take the resistance anymore.
Guess you are right. Thanks...

larry10s

03-11-2009, 02:12 PM

i should have more patience. i apologize. good luck

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 02:20 PM

No problem...

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 02:59 PM

Yeah I've never played in an indoor facility that had good lighting. Where is that club at?

Long Island NY, There are a bunch lit like that here.

J

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 03:10 PM

probably 10-15% if you are doing the other fundamentals correctly.

I am convinced it, along with delayed elbow extension are the critical aspects that separate the top MPH PRO servers from the upper, but more avg MPH PRO servers.

Most all pros have nearly all the other fundamentals in place, but drop and delay are nearly always weaker in the servers who don't break the 130 mark regularly.
To contrast, i have never observed a PRO server that regularly hit over 130, that didn't have excellent drop and delay.

We think that (meaning I hit the serves and they tell me) it is a lack of lag that is keeping me out of the 130's.

A couple of guys have different theorys, and in regular speed, even stepping through frame by frame it looks good to me, but as I showed above once I come out of the trophy pose, there is so much movement between frames that I can't see clearly.

I am going to see if I can shoot some serves in high speed, and see if that helps, and have some of my coaches look at it. (Of course they are mostly focused on my spastic forehand, but I want the bigger steam). I would appreciate if you took a look aswell, because I generally agree with your lines of thinking. (Of course if you wanted and had time)

There are some regular speed serves at the end of this video http://vimeo.com/3514338 pretty much all hard spin serves, I don't really break out the A1 flat ball until warmer weather comes.

One session I really focused on the lag, and driving the shoulder up first and letting the arm/racquet lag behind, and I struggled a good deal, until I hit one serve, and the ball made a sound, that I have honestly never heard a tennis ball make before (at least when struck by someone who doesn't get paid to play), so I certainly believe I have plenty of room for improvement, which is an exciting prospect since my serve isn't exactly lame right now.

J

5263

03-11-2009, 04:22 PM

We think that (meaning I hit the serves and they tell me) it is a lack of lag that is keeping me out of the 130's.

A couple of guys have different theorys, and in regular speed, even stepping through frame by frame it looks good to me, but as I showed above once I come out of the trophy pose, there is so much movement between frames that I can't see clearly.

I am going to see if I can shoot some serves in high speed, and see if that helps, and have some of my coaches look at it. (Of course they are mostly focused on my spastic forehand, but I want the bigger steam). I would appreciate if you took a look aswell, because I generally agree with your lines of thinking. (Of course if you wanted and had time)

There are some regular speed serves at the end of this video http://vimeo.com/3514338 pretty much all hard spin serves, I don't really break out the A1 flat ball until warmer weather comes.

One session I really focused on the lag, and driving the shoulder up first and letting the arm/racquet lag behind, and I struggled a good deal, until I hit one serve, and the ball made a sound, that I have honestly never heard a tennis ball make before (at least when struck by someone who doesn't get paid to play), so I certainly believe I have plenty of room for improvement, which is an exciting prospect since my serve isn't exactly lame right now.

J

I'd be glad to take a look at it. I'm loading the vid you have now. Is there a way to go frame by frame on that site?

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 04:28 PM

I'd be glad to take a look at it. I'm loading the vid you have now. Is there a way to go frame by frame on that site?

Unfortunately you have to download the file.

I will try to get high speed vid tonite, but it is indoors with indirect lighting so I am afraid it might come out too dark.

Time to break out the whites, and leave the 'Darth Jolly' at home. :)

J

superslam

03-11-2009, 04:32 PM

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 04:40 PM

Jo11yroger what do you suggest against playing a 3.5 player who likes to hit moon balls and lobs? Also who has a slow first and second serve. Can you give me suggestions on how to tackle an opponent like this?

Yes, right after I get back from the gym and my hitting session :)

Look for a reply later or in the AM.

Time to make the doughnuts!

J-Rog Out!

J

larry10s

03-11-2009, 05:17 PM

5263

03-11-2009, 05:21 PM

Hard to say. He did reach a number 4 ranking in the world, and beat Agassi in the French open final of 1990.

That is all correct I expect, but has maybe nothing to do with his ability to go very big on a regular basis on his first serve.

Agassi, the man he beat who was a #1 and awesome player, didn't have this ability. He did not have great drop or delay on most of his serves.
I don't say he never did, because I didn't see and study every serve. I can only speak to serves I've had access to study.

5263

03-11-2009, 05:21 PM

dont you think that deserves a new thread?

good point.

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 06:06 PM

I will reply in his Varsity Tryout thread.

In other more related news, I got switched to another court with direct lighting, and I will still wear white, so hopefully the high speed vid will come out OK.

J

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 09:21 PM

High speed vid came out ummmmm fair.

I will have to edit it down a lot because it will take like 15 minutes to see 6 serves.

The vid is a little dark, and there are some hitches in the recording. But it is pretty cool.

I can gladly report that I have all kinds of racquet drop on the serve, it gets down well past my ass, but not to the knee/short leg.

All kinds of batspeed on the FH too, but that is old news.

J

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 10:12 PM

Just a quick preview.

I think max drop would be right between these two frames.

http://i42.tinypic.com/33faxb5.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/290u9zp.jpg

J

J011yroger

03-11-2009, 10:23 PM

More pics from the same serve shown above.

It was a 2nd serve out wide, that using the frame counter, clocked in around 110mph.

http://i44.tinypic.com/n50mty.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/21o5um9.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hd1f06.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/4qppw2.jpg

J

gzhpcu

03-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Nice racket drop J011yroger...:-)

larry10s

03-12-2009, 04:42 AM

larry10s

03-12-2009, 04:48 AM

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/84710169/Getty-Images-Sport?axd=DetailPaging.Generic|1&axs=0|84749114%2c84745052%2c84745044%2c84743550%2c 84743452%2c84742795%2c84741454%2c84739167%2c847382 89%2c84737942%2c84737833%2c84737307%2c84737136%2c8 4736720%2c84736711%2c84736540%2c84728187%2c8472813 8%2c84727602%2c84727595%2c84726927%2c84726876%2c84 726865%2c84726836%2c84723540%2c84723537%2c84723533 %2c84723518%2c84722491%2c84721064%2c84721062%2c847 20949%2c84720827%2c84710169%2c84709096%2c84706967% 2c84706944%2c84706893%2c84706725%2c84706666%2c8470 3634%2c84703611%2c84703606%2c84703599%2c84702875%2 c84702863%2c84702850%2c84702839%2c84702803%2c84702 793%2c84702782%2c84702747%2c84702731%2c84691845%2c 84691272%2c84691268%2c84691125%2c84691103%2c846910 72%2c84691026

larry10s

03-12-2009, 04:50 AM

you need to copy and paste the link to see the photo. he is already on the way up alittle looks like jolly's position. can anyone figure out how to post photo?

gzhpcu

03-12-2009, 05:10 AM

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/84710169/Getty-Images-Sport
Here you go...

Can't get the image in either, but at least you can click on it...

larry10s

03-12-2009, 06:25 AM

thanks i wish i knew how to do that it didnt copy like that for me. looks like jolly's position. or i should say he looks like JO11yroger

gzhpcu

03-12-2009, 10:13 AM

When you post a reply, you will see on the second row of the menu, underneath the white smiley, an icon with a blue dot. Click on it, and a window appears asking for the url. You just cut and paste it in, and then you are set. There is also an image icon, but for some reason, it did not work for me...

J011yroger

03-14-2009, 07:13 AM

Here is another nice deep one, almost to the knee. Once again I think max drop is between these 2 frames.

Man do I hate editing High Speed video.

http://i40.tinypic.com/28aksq0.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/eunfpe.jpg

J

J011yroger

03-14-2009, 07:52 AM

Stoked to see how deep I get on a nice hot summer day when I can relax and let it fly.

130 or bust!

J

5263

03-14-2009, 05:03 PM

jolly if i can call you that for short great positions looks just like the pros!!!!! if i had to be picky you seem alittle off balance (too much left lean) on the second serve. but that is being picky

I don't think it is too picky at all.
yes, excellent racket drop, but remember, that is the last 10% or so assuming everything else is in place, as it usually is with the pro men. In this case there are a couple of more basic areas that while not bad, could use some tweaking, while maintaining that nice drop.

Balance is sooo important to transmitting power, especially with accuracy. It would also help the other aspect he can improve on, which is pronation. Yes, he has some, but it could be stronger with a better angle of approach. That excellent racket drop needs to translate up and into a stronger, up and right pronation. The current pronation tells me that some of the power is already dropping off at the top of his leg drive. This is not like a jump shot where you want to get to the top of your jump then, gather and shoot. You must drive up and power into the ball.

Really overall excellent serving though. Serving that any college player could be very proud of!

One more thing that may be slightly picky is shoulder turn. I think there can be improvement there.

5263

03-14-2009, 06:07 PM

So Jolly, had a chance to ck your email? or this thread?

J011yroger

03-14-2009, 06:40 PM

So Jolly, had a chance to ck your email? or this thread?

Just got home, and yes, thank you very much for the comments.

I will take a look again at the videos and look again at the comments.

I know what you are saying about the framerate, even with the 210FPS it is still too fast just watching, and I have to step through frame by frame to see what is going on.

RE: Pronation. All of those serves were spin serves of some variety, and I think most were 2nd serves, I just tried to pick the ones filmed cleanly through the swing portion. Would that have something to do with the reduced pronation? Because while I have not seen myself on video much, I have been told that I pronate very hard, actually exceptionally heavily by several high level coaches. So I don't know if I have gotten away from that somehow over the winter, or if it is just because in these vids I am throwing junk serves. The weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow, so maybe I can get outside and really starch a few, too see what that looks like in comparison.

So in these vids I am mostly concentrating on attacking the inside/bottom of the ball, which is mostly what I do on clay anyway. Really only bring out the big one for the element of surprise.

RE: Leg Drive. Yea, I see what you are saying, and the thing I noticed was the front foot movement, that is a bad habit I really thought I had stamped out, and I think is something that contributes. I think if I load the front leg more, and launch into the ball, that will clear itself up. I was for sure being a bit tentative.

RE: Shoulder Turn: I am unsure of what you are saying is wrong, that there is not enough initial turn, or that I am uncoiling out of sequence.

RE: Balance. Yea, it is a constant battle for me. We have been working on shoring up the motion, so that it puts less stress on my back and legs, to make it more repeatable, and keeps me with my weight more centered and evenly distributed. Been an uphill fight, but I am too stubborn to give up.

Once again, thanks so much for your time. I truely appreciate it.

130mph or bust!

J

gzhpcu

03-14-2009, 10:00 PM

If you are in doubt as to the extent of your pronation, do you have any frame after impact? The racket face should be facing outward.

J011yroger

03-14-2009, 10:11 PM

If you are in doubt as to the extent of your pronation, do you have any frame after impact? The racket face should be facing outward.

It is that I don't have any flat serves on high speed video.

I felt really tight that night, and didn't want to try to crack any, so I just hit spin serves.

Will see if I can get some tomorrow.

J

J011yroger

03-14-2009, 10:13 PM

If you are curious, these are some tiebreakers played after the highspeed film was taken.

You can see that I am not really thumping it. But am getting pretty good kick, esp on the 2nd ball.

J

gzhpcu

03-14-2009, 10:15 PM

I think pronation would tend to be more extreme on a second serve. Have a frame showing the max. outward position of the racket head after impact?

gzhpcu

03-14-2009, 10:27 PM

BTW, difficult to see on your videos, but on your forehand backswing, when you begin to initiate the forward movement, the face of your racket seems to be kind of perpendicular to the court, whereas if you compare it to Federer or Nadal you will see they have the face of the racket facing the court and the wrist bend back.

5263

03-15-2009, 08:23 PM

Just got home, and yes, thank you very much for the comments.
I will take a look again at the videos and look again at the comments.

I know what you are saying about the framerate, even with the 210FPS it is still too fast just watching, and I have to step through frame by frame to see what is going on.
RE: Pronation. All of those serves were spin serves of some variety, and I think most were 2nd serves, I just tried to pick the ones filmed cleanly through the swing portion. Would that have something to do with the reduced pronation? Because while I have not seen myself on video much, I have been told that I pronate very hard, actually exceptionally heavily by several high level coaches. So I don't know if I have gotten away from that somehow over the winter, or if it is just because in these vids I am throwing junk serves. The weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow, so maybe I can get outside and really starch a few, too see what that looks like in comparison.
So in these vids I am mostly concentrating on attacking the inside/bottom of the ball, which is mostly what I do on clay anyway. Really only bring out the big one for the element of surprise.
RE: Leg Drive. Yea, I see what you are saying, and the thing I noticed was the front foot movement, that is a bad habit I really thought I had stamped out, and I think is something that contributes. I think if I load the front leg more, and launch into the ball, that will clear itself up. I was for sure being a bit tentative.
RE: Shoulder Turn: I am unsure of what you are saying is wrong, that there is not enough initial turn, or that I am uncoiling out of sequence.
RE: Balance. Yea, it is a constant battle for me. We have been working on shoring up the motion, so that it puts less stress on my back and legs, to make it more repeatable, and keeps me with my weight more centered and evenly distributed. Been an uphill fight, but I am too stubborn to give up.

Once again, thanks so much for your time. I truely appreciate it.
130mph or bust!
J

on shoulder turn, it was not bad at all. Actually everything was pretty good except balance, but just looked like you could have gotten more or deeper turn. Maybe the second serve thing explains that, but I don't think so.

As for pronation, it just didn't have the strong left to right action that I see in big servers I've studied. This could be affected by the less shoulder turn though. the pronation may be there, just on another vector. Pronation is also greatly affected by the delay aspect on the elbow. If the elbow extends at the last moment, then the racket head goes from very low, up to the ball and around bk down so that it really drives the pronation.
this is why Pete's swing was nearly finished on the way down, but above his chest. we don't have the frame rate to be clear on this in your case.

Best I could tell with this frame rate, the racket drop was excellent, especially for second serves.
Notice I didn't say spin serves though, as I think first serves should be very good spin serves.
Even Pete had less drop for second serves from what I could tell in his vids.

5263

03-15-2009, 08:31 PM

gzhpcu

03-15-2009, 08:50 PM

J011yroger

03-15-2009, 08:54 PM

Jolly,
there is also a relation with shldr turn and leg drive that I will try to describe. Tell me if it makes sense.

The deep shldr turn is stopped or bounced off the back limits by the leg drive.
The timing should be such that as the legs drive the torso up, they cause sort of a jam that not only stops the shldrs, but helps them to bounce or whip back towards the front and over the top. This allow the server to whip the serve, opposed to muscle the shoulder back around.
does this make sense?

Yes, I think I understand, I don't really focus on uncoiling, I just load and coil, and then settle under the ball, and try to unload into it as it drops into the hitting zone. (I have a mile high toss)

I have a chronic bad back, and when it is stiff, or I can't get loose enough, I will cut down on the turn and such, but in the warmer weather when I can get good and loose, I pretty much show my back to the opponent.

Working on the balance, and repeatability thing pretty hard, since I am tall, all arms and legs, it doesn't take much to throw me out of whack.

I will have to try to get vid of me flattening the ball out. Something just isn't right with the flat ball, I can feel it. When I really square the topspin ball it feels perfect, and on a good warm day I have little trouble throwing them in the 110-115 range and 6'+ in the air. But I struggle to get the flat ball out of the low 120's on my best day.

Some coaches have said lack of delay, some have said I am hitting the end of my rope just before contact on the flat ball, and accelerating through the spin serve.

J

5263

03-15-2009, 09:18 PM

5263,
The determinng contribution to the speed of serve from the shoulders comes primarily from cartwheeling and not from rotating. Going from left shoulder high/ right shoulder low to right shoulder high/left shoulder low at impact.

I think I get your point, although it is just a matter of settling on terms. Neither cartwheeling or rotating are actually that accurate for descriptions, although I could agree that cartwheeling may be better. It really comes down to working within the understanding of you audience. I find that quite a few people struggle with the cartwheeling term.
I feel this is one of the most important aspects of coaching, to find words that translate to each person's understanding.

gzhpcu

03-15-2009, 09:38 PM

Would "shoulder over shoulder" be a better term?

5263

03-15-2009, 09:46 PM

Would "shoulder over shoulder" be a better term?

It has promise. I'll see if it gets me that blank stare or not. LoL.
Let's see what Jolley says.

Also remember it is more of a rotation back, the shoulder over shoulder, coming back around.

gzhpcu

03-15-2009, 09:54 PM

Hmmm... "corkscrewing"?

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 04:04 AM

Let's see what Jolley says.

I understand what you are both talking about. Have studied this stuff fairly extensively :)

J

Slicendicer

03-16-2009, 06:32 AM

This, on the other hand, almost made it past knee height! Yowsers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI&feature=related

It looks like that because of his deep knee bend... :)

Slicendicer

03-16-2009, 06:37 AM

When you're talking about creating length in the service motion to increase racquet speed or serve speed, the lowest point of the racquet to the highest is how you measure and how far you strecth your shoulders open... watch Gonzales' serve...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=825atbm8bHw&feature=PlayList&p=F57FF036A92A4A31&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

5263

03-16-2009, 06:39 AM

I understand what you are both talking about. Have studied this stuff fairly extensively :)

J

I'm sure you do. Thats why I way curious what you may consider an adequate term to use for the description. Maybe you have a better way to describe the shoulder action as it moves into the CP.
Dave Smith, you have a good term for this shoulder action?

Slicendicer

03-16-2009, 07:27 AM

We think that (meaning I hit the serves and they tell me) it is a lack of lag that is keeping me out of the 130's.

A couple of guys have different theorys, and in regular speed, even stepping through frame by frame it looks good to me, but as I showed above once I come out of the trophy pose, there is so much movement between frames that I can't see clearly.

I am going to see if I can shoot some serves in high speed, and see if that helps, and have some of my coaches look at it. (Of course they are mostly focused on my spastic forehand, but I want the bigger steam). I would appreciate if you took a look aswell, because I generally agree with your lines of thinking. (Of course if you wanted and had time)

There are some regular speed serves at the end of this video http://vimeo.com/3514338 pretty much all hard spin serves, I don't really break out the A1 flat ball until warmer weather comes.

One session I really focused on the lag, and driving the shoulder up first and letting the arm/racquet lag behind, and I struggled a good deal, until I hit one serve, and the ball made a sound, that I have honestly never heard a tennis ball make before (at least when struck by someone who doesn't get paid to play), so I certainly believe I have plenty of room for improvement, which is an exciting prospect since my serve isn't exactly lame right now.

J

Hey Jolly... are you saying you serve average near 130 MPH?

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 03:00 PM

I'm sure you do. Thats why I way curious what you may consider an adequate term to use for the description. Maybe you have a better way to describe the shoulder action as it moves into the CP.
Dave Smith, you have a good term for this shoulder action?

I just call it shoulder over shoulder rotation, and think of replacing the left shoulder with the right one. Sometimes I say see-saw even though there is rotation about two axis.

I focus on a heavy shoulder tilt, and then firing upwards. Currently I fire the elbow upwards, but have experimented with firing the right shoulder upwards and I think that is what is going to take me over the top, but it is a bit scary because if my timing is off and I hit the end of my reach before I hit the ball, I am leery of hyperextending my elbow, or hurting my arm.

J

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 03:03 PM

Hey Jolly... are you saying you serve average near 130 MPH?

Nope, there is something wrong with my flat delivery keeping me out of the 130's, I can feel it. I can hit a hard topspin serve in the 110-115mph range, but can't get out of the low/mid 120's with the flat ball.

J

5263

03-16-2009, 03:41 PM

Slicendicer

03-16-2009, 03:44 PM

Nope, there is something wrong with my flat delivery keeping me out of the 130's, I can feel it. I can hit a hard topspin serve in the 110-115mph range, but can't get out of the low/mid 120's with the flat ball.

J

You have accurately speed tested your average serves at + 120MPH? 2nd serves at 110-115 MPH?

I think a lot of people think they serve harder than they do. If you say it is so, I have to believe you.

Hey Pete... you for sure ARE NOT + 100 MPH.

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 07:35 PM

Does anyone serve in the 130s with a 90sq in head, strung with 70 lbs LUX?? LoL
Can't think of anyone.

I don't think it makes much of a difference on serves. Will let you know if I do, certainly not the end of the world if I don't. But if I don't it will not be for lack of effort, on and off court.

J

LeeD

03-16-2009, 07:42 PM

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 07:51 PM

You have accurately speed tested your average serves at + 120MPH? 2nd serves at 110-115 MPH?

I think a lot of people think they serve harder than they do. If you say it is so, I have to believe you.

Hey Pete... you for sure ARE NOT + 100 MPH.

No, not avg 120+ top out at 120+.

2nd serves only get above 110 when I catch the ball more squarely than I intended.

Lots of matches I will use spin serves first and 2nd, and just kick the 2nd a little more, so I will hit the hard topspin serve for a 1st serve. I have to be feeling it, and good and loose to bring out the bomb. Especially on clay, I will just slap one for the element of surprise or slice one for the element of surprise since people are used to returning balls eye level or over their head.

In wintertime I scale it back, and try not to be a hero, because my body just revolts in cooler temps, but on a nice warm summer day I can serve an absolute ton.

Last time I was on the gun was last spring, (late april I believe) hardest flat ball was 122, hardest topspin ball 116, hardest slider 112.

I may or may not be serving bigger now, but I certainly am not going to claim it on speculation.

I hate practicing on radar, because I tighten up and it jives with me, same thing when I try to hit a stroke for vid analysis, I was surprised the vids I took for the serve analysis looked as good as it did, because I felt like my body was made out of wood when I was filming them. Same with groundies, Coach asked me to film some FHs from a different angle, and because I was thinking about it they sucked, went back and watched the vid, and my 2hbh which I wasn't thinking about at all, was as smooth as I had ever seen.

I think I am just mentally defective. Actually pretty sure of it.

J

Djokovicfan4life

03-16-2009, 07:53 PM

I don't think it makes much of a difference on serves. Will let you know if I do, certainly not the end of the world if I don't. But if I don't it will not be for lack of effort, on and off court.

J

OT mode:

I just watched your "tiebreakers" video and you seem to dominate the drop shot game! You had poor blue shirt man on a string, it seems. Of course, I understand that video editing probably played a role in that video as well. :)

I noticed in your last response you said that you rarely bring out the flat bomb, which I also noticed in your vids. Not that it matters when they all kick up over blue's head, as he pointed out halfway through the video. Better margin for error too, resulting in less of the double faulting blues. ;)

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:02 PM

You have accurately speed tested your average serves at + 120MPH? 2nd serves at 110-115 MPH?

I think a lot of people think they serve harder than they do. If you say it is so, I have to believe you.

Hey Pete... you for sure ARE NOT + 100 MPH.

Dunno if you are interested but here are points from tiebreakers we played after I shot the high speed. Probably serving around 60% effort, and all hard spin serves. I know it is tough to judge speed on low qual video, but you sound like you have played enough T that you have an idea of how fast the ball is moving by the sound it makes. Watch how high the kick is on most of them. My friend (in blue) is around 5'10" for reference.

Obviously I am the tall good looking guy in white. And yea, I know I desperately need a tan.

http://vimeo.com/3657159

J

Djokovicfan4life

03-16-2009, 08:15 PM

You desperately need some bulk, Jo11y! :)

Beef cake, baby.

5263

03-16-2009, 08:26 PM

5263.....
A good server, usually a tall, strong, guy, can serve 130's with any size racket under almost any tension....but...
For replicable CONTROL, they'd mostly choose small heads under 95, and tensions that work for them with their service swings.
ColinDibley, back in the late '70's, used a MaxPly with 70+ lbs. VS 16 gauge gut to get 149 at GoldenGatePark SanFrancisco. MaxPly was what ?... 70 sq in. ???
And I guess Roddick uses like one hundred something and hits the ball pretty fast too.

Not sure your point. You clearly don't have a name of anyone who is using stiff Poly @ 70+ lbs, in a 90 head or smaller.
Your old timers didn't use poly.
Roddick uses a Hybrid I understand, in a 100 head size and it is one of the most powerful serve rackets I've ever used. I even broke 120 with it, and I'm well past my prime.
Sampras was not real frequent in the 130s and did not use Poly.
get the idea?
Jolly is using a very demanding combination.

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:27 PM

OT mode:

I just watched your "tiebreakers" video and you seem to dominate the drop shot game! You had poor blue shirt man on a string, it seems. Of course, I understand that video editing probably played a role in that video as well. :)

I think I hit 4 maybe 5 droppers, and won all but one of the points, but my buddy is quick as hell, and if I do it at the wrong time, he gets to it, like in an instant. So I try to keep him pinned to the back wall.

I edited out the one I botched and he won the point.

I believe my exact words were "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU THINKING?!? USE YOUR HEAD FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A F'ING HAT RACK!!!".

I noticed in your last response you said that you rarely bring out the flat bomb, which I also noticed in your vids. Not that it matters when they all kick up over blue's head, as he pointed out halfway through the video. Better margin for error too, resulting in less of the double faulting blues. ;)

Ya, no need to bring the bomb, especially on clay, and my arm thanks me.

Do not underestimate my ability to double fault!

I can double fault like a champion.

When things are going well, they go really well. When things go bad, they go really bad.

I am pretty good at managing DFs as long as I have a full nights sleep. If I only get a few hours sleep, it can be really bad, I have trouble concentrating, and I put the ball up, and kind of lose it, and let it drop too far before I hit it. Or if my back locks up, it just says "J, you can try to serve if you want, but I am not going to let you" And sometimes I try, and then I fail.

J

Djokovicfan4life

03-16-2009, 08:33 PM

My back doesn't cause me to double fault. It's that pesky toss that gets me.

"Go up, ball! NO, NOT THAT WAY!"

And yet, I just can't bring myself to catch bad tosses. Stupid? Very.

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:34 PM

You desperately need some bulk, Jo11y! :)

Beef cake, baby.

I do pretty tough off court training, so I will have that covered, don't need to add any bulk though. Get stronger, faster, better balanced.

I'll put up some shirtless pics from a training session once it warms up. I got 99 problems, but being out of shape isn't one.

J

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:37 PM

My back doesn't cause me to double fault. It's that pesky toss that gets me.

"Go up, ball! NO, NOT THAT WAY!"

And yet, I just can't bring myself to catch bad tosses. Stupid? Very.

Do you choose where you are going to serve while you are bouncing the ball?

Do you visualize where you want the toss to be, before you begin your motion?

Do you hold the ball in the tips of your fingers like an egg sitting on a stand?

Do you keep your arm straight and put the ball up with no spin?

J

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:42 PM

Jolly is using a very demanding combination.

I actually serve bigger with my frames than with a PDR+. Or most anything else I have tried.

Now I am not saying it is the racquet, it is probably because of my timing being set to the frame I use every day.

But my goal isn't so much to put up the number, or compare myself to others. I just want to be able to get the most out of what my body can do.

I know I won't ever be throwing down 144mph Roddick bombs, but I also don't want to be leaving something on the table. I am sure I will be quite content with wherever I end up, as long as I feel that I am doing the most that my body is capable of. No matter if it is 115 or 135.

J

J011yroger

03-16-2009, 08:44 PM

P.S. I have strung from 56-70, full poly, hybrids, multis, and gut, and don't think any of that made any appreciable difference in serve speed to me.

Would gladly put it to the test in the spring. Would be a cool experiment.

J

Djokovicfan4life

03-16-2009, 08:55 PM

I do pretty tough off court training, so I will have that covered, don't need to add any bulk though. Get stronger, faster, better balanced.

I'll put up some shirtless pics from a training session once it warms up. I got 99 problems, but being out of shape isn't one.

J

I know. Just messing around.

I have to say, I wouldn't mind being built like Verdasco though. And I mean that in a totally gay way.

J011yroger

03-17-2009, 04:13 AM

I have to say, I wouldn't mind being built like Verdasco though. And I mean that in a totally gay way.

Agree 100% Dude was in some kind of shape in Oz.

J

larry10s

03-17-2009, 05:58 AM

J011yroger

03-17-2009, 02:38 PM

wish i had those problems jolly. lol

lol, don't worry, I have enough other problems that make up for it :)

J

Slicendicer

03-17-2009, 03:28 PM

Dunno if you are interested but here are points from tiebreakers we played after I shot the high speed. Probably serving around 60% effort, and all hard spin serves. I know it is tough to judge speed on low qual video, but you sound like you have played enough T that you have an idea of how fast the ball is moving by the sound it makes. Watch how high the kick is on most of them. My friend (in blue) is around 5'10" for reference.

Obviously I am the tall good looking guy in white. And yea, I know I desperately need a tan.

http://vimeo.com/3657159

J

Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Slicendicer

03-17-2009, 03:29 PM

Do you choose where you are going to serve while you are bouncing the ball?

Do you visualize where you want the toss to be, before you begin your motion?

Do you hold the ball in the tips of your fingers like an egg sitting on a stand?

Do you keep your arm straight and put the ball up with no spin?

J

Yes. Yes. No. No.

Djokovicfan4life

03-17-2009, 04:17 PM

Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Jo11y can kick them over the 12 foot backdrop, with video evidence, so yeah.

J011yroger

03-17-2009, 05:20 PM

Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Ummmm... I am not trying to prove anyting, just saying, this is how I serve if you are curious. Sure there are lots of people who serve better, worse, or different than me.

J

Slicendicer

03-17-2009, 08:03 PM

Ummmm... I am not trying to prove anyting, just saying, this is how I serve if you are curious. Sure there are lots of people who serve better, worse, or different than me.

J

Thats cool... I can flatten a serve with pace too, just I don't think most players who think they serve 120 MPH, serve 120 MPH.

Tonight I kicked serve on a hard court like 10 ft, I couldn't do it twice, but the speed was maybe like 70 MPH.

I serve harder than every player I play against, and I don't think I serve over 100 MPH... so I just don't buy into the "speed of serve cult".

Jolly... me and you... we're cool. :)

Slicendicer

03-17-2009, 08:05 PM

Jo11y can kick them over the 12 foot backdrop, with video evidence, so yeah.

An 8-10 ft kick serve on clay court is routine.

Djokovicfan4life

03-18-2009, 02:36 AM

Thanks for the update, Big Ben.

Slicendicer

03-18-2009, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the update, Big Ben.

No problem... I used to practice with a few pro players that served 115-130 MPH... I don;t think you realize how fast that is. It would be extremely rare for a 4.0-4.5 club player to serve over 120 MPH.

I hit with Roddick in December after he won the Open... dude you have no idea what a kick serve is until you see a true 115 MPH spin serve from across the net. So if I'm skeptical of a 4.5 player saying he hits routine 2nd spin serves at 115 MPH... or a 14 y.o. 3.0 player serving +100 MPH... I hope you understand.

Julieta

03-18-2009, 07:20 AM

No problem... I used to practice with a few pro players that served 115-130 MPH... I don;t think you realize how fast that is. It would be extremely rare for a 4.0-4.5 club player to serve over 120 MPH.

I hit with Roddick in December after he won the Open... dude you have no idea what a kick serve is until you see a true 115 MPH spin serve from across the net. So if I'm skeptical of a 4.5 player saying he hits routine 2nd spin serves at 115 MPH... or a 14 y.o. 3.0 player serving +100 MPH... I hope you understand.

I'm with you on this. It is all a matter of frame of reference.

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 06:49 AM

If you are in doubt as to the extent of your pronation, do you have any frame after impact? The racket face should be facing outward.

Last night was the first night I tried to start feeling out the flat ball. It is still about 2 weeks away from active duty, but I snapped a few frames out of the vid on two of my flatter balls.

If you watch my latest vid these serves are at the end. Memory card ran out just as I was starting to get warmed up serving so there aren't too many. Swachime!

http://i43.tinypic.com/wbezj4.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2i1p06c.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ik9j7s.jpg

J

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 06:51 AM

http://i43.tinypic.com/21lq5pw.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/mmzntc.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2sai4ut.jpg

J

gzhpcu

03-21-2009, 07:34 AM

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 08:04 AM

Bit hard to see because fuzzy, but it certainly looks like you have very nice pronation. Nice style overall.

Just a question: seems to me that for a flat serve you are going a lot more up than forward. Ever try putting the ball up a bit more forward, so as to get more body lean into it? Think it would increase your power...

Ya, I have tried it both ways. I was feeling out the toss last night, but we were both pretty out of it.

I am moving it from straight ahead, to just to the right, and near the baseline and into the court.

Like I said it is going to take me a good two weeks, it all feels pretty vague right now.

Last summer when I was really cracking it, I served the biggest flat balls with the toss straight in front of me, and not terribly far into the court.

Things go well when I go up. I think UP about everything in the serve.

A little more time, and a little more temp, and I will really start to lean into it and see what I have.

I am just a bit chickenhearted right now, as I don't want to hurt my arm going for too much too soon.

J

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 08:06 AM

If you watch my latest vid these serves are at the end. Memory card ran out just as I was starting to get warmed up serving so there aren't too many. Swachime!

Here is the link.

http://www.vimeo.com/3789362

I know it isn't pretty, Friday night at 11pm after a long work week, and we were both out of it.

J

larry10s

03-21-2009, 11:37 AM

getting the thumb pointed to the ground ie complete pronation is very important for a powerful serve. in the pics you have shown your arm is still extended you have not gotten into the "high elbow bent arm" in this pic. i know the thread focuses on this look whith a commanding argument for it i still think but cant prove that the complete pronation with the thum and racquet pointed at the court ie completely turned over IS whats important. the high elbow imho has to do with when the arm relaxes and starts to bend. if you look at aggassi for example he never quite gets to that extreme position.heres your pic jolly i am referring to vvvvvvv

larry10s

03-21-2009, 11:38 AM

http://i43.tinypic.com/21lq5pw.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/mmzntc.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2sai4ut.jpg

J arm straight but great pronation

larry10s

03-21-2009, 11:43 AM

Agassi does not have the high elbow position...
tried to post his pic i get these 2 threads mixed up. the other thing thats important is your palm need to face the right side fence for full pronation

larry10s

03-21-2009, 11:45 AM

look at the sampras / gonzales pics (it did not copy/paste for me) GORGEOUS PRONATION!!!!

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 12:08 PM

arm straight but great pronation

Going to investigate the high elbow thing in the coming weeks.

Have you looked at Safin, Fish, Delic, Querry, Guccione, Lubicic?

J

gzhpcu

03-21-2009, 05:07 PM

Here is Safin:

http://www.sportoftennis.com/images/oly_full.getty-71508231ca005_countrywide_c_5_13_29_pm.jpg

J011yroger

03-21-2009, 05:55 PM

^^^ What do you think? His arm/elbow is still high, but the arm is straight without the forearm pointing down?

J

gzhpcu

03-21-2009, 11:01 PM

Safin has a great serve. He does not have that "broken arm" finish. A finish like you have. Kind of baffling... He also had heavy spin on the ball... Is having a straight arm finish an indication of better extension and accuracy?

I wonder (yes, I know: apples and oranges :)), if this whole business is not somewhat akin to the forehand issues of whether to hit the ball with a straight arm or a bent arm?

gzhpcu

03-22-2009, 12:06 AM

Brian Gordon, who has done so great biomechanical analysis of the serve, posted this picture of his in another thread:

http://www.3dpowertennis.com/rvel.jpg

which is another representation of the one I referred to earlier:

http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Images/Set_2060.jpg

Evidence of the lag in the movement and really late acceleration prior to impact.

gzhpcu

03-22-2009, 12:14 AM

Brian Gordon made some very good comments in a thread "How can I improve my serve":

Like nearly any individual component of the serve, one would be hard pressed to show correlation to contact racquet speed, over a variety of different servers, because so many other factors are combined in the process.

It is a little bit like saying my 64 VW bug and my Ferrari both have four wheels but that does not correlate to the speed they can clock. It disregards the engine.

Seems to me the serve is no different. More important than the depth of the drop is the conditions of the body and racquet at that instant, and the muscular engine that will take the racquet to contact.

That said, for a given engine, the longer the distance over which it can exert its drive (deeper drop), the faster it will ultimately drive the machine.

For the sake of discussion I would suggest that the only way to assess the correlation of drop depth to contact racquet speed (and therefore its importance) would be to remove the confounding variables (the engine).

Of course, this is impossible, but if Pete Sampras could hit two serves keeping all else constant, but in one he uses full racquet drop, and in the other he uses 3/4 of the drop, which serve would show the highest contact racquet speed?

larry10s

03-22-2009, 05:01 AM

Here is Safin:

http://www.sportoftennis.com/images/oly_full.getty-71508231ca005_countrywide_c_5_13_29_pm.jpg
but look at his palm facing the side fence. complete pronation. with no science to back it up but as a gestault of my reading i beleive that is more important than the "broken arm" finish. i wish if my arm was broken i could serve like sampras.lol

larry10s

03-22-2009, 05:01 AM

Brian Gordon made some very good comments in a thread "How can I improve my serve":seems like brian thinks a deeper drop is better.

gzhpcu

03-22-2009, 06:27 AM

seems like brian thinks a deeper drop is better.
Yes, and I think it is what you alluded to somewhere else, that it is an indication of inherent biomechanical flexibility coupled with getting all aspects of the kinetic chain correct.

J011yroger

03-22-2009, 07:44 AM

Safin has a great serve. He does not have that "broken arm" finish. A finish like you have. Kind of baffling... He also had heavy spin on the ball... Is having a straight arm finish an indication of better extension and accuracy?

Boy. . . this looks mighty similar to what I have going on with the exception of sliding the back foot. What do you guys think? I can put up pics to compare if you choose a few out of the sequence.

http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/safin_serve_04_0408.jpg

J

J011yroger

03-22-2009, 07:46 AM

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/01/20/andyroddick_narrowweb__300x398,0.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6136/f7a9762cddd4897346568ffsu1.jpg

J

J011yroger

03-22-2009, 07:47 AM

Looks perliously close to an eastern FH grip from Marat.

J

gzhpcu

03-22-2009, 08:00 AM

In your post #138, Marat gets an awful lot of strong shoulder over shoulder movement in his serve. He is also leaning off to the side quite a lot for what looks like a heavy twist serve...

larry10s

03-23-2009, 05:09 AM

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/01/20/andyroddick_narrowweb__300x398,0.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6136/f7a9762cddd4897346568ffsu1.jpg

J look at the amount of pronation . i cant get away from that core fundamental

gzhpcu

03-23-2009, 09:04 AM

look at the amount of pronation . i cant get away from that core fundamental
Right. It is a sign of a biomechanically correct and natural non-stress movement for a heavy spin serve. Of itself, it does not significantly contribute to racket speed (about 5% according to Brian Gordon...)

Julieta

03-23-2009, 11:29 AM

Boy. . . this looks mighty similar to what I have going on with the exception of sliding the back foot. What do you guys think? I can put up pics to compare if you choose a few out of the sequence.

J

If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?

J011yroger

03-23-2009, 02:44 PM

If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?

From a few pages ago, in this very thread.

http://i44.tinypic.com/n50mty.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/33faxb5.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/290u9zp.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/21o5um9.jpg

J

J

J011yroger

03-23-2009, 02:45 PM

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hd1f06.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/4qppw2.jpg

J

Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

These were shot in 210fps.

J

gzhpcu

03-23-2009, 10:22 PM

J011yroger, congratulations, looks very nice. Would you happen to have any from the side as well? Would be interested to see the impact point...

Julieta

03-24-2009, 03:57 AM

Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

These were shot in 210fps.

J

Thanks, I didnt see that last one in any of the earlier posts, sorry.

Is your shoulder okay now? Any recent problems?

J011yroger

03-24-2009, 03:58 AM

J011yroger, congratulations, looks very nice. Would you happen to have any from the side as well? Would be interested to see the impact point...

I don't have any serves. Would it be best from a front 3/4 angle, or straight on from the side?

It is going to be cold this week, but if it warms up next week I will gladly shoot some.

High speed just comes out too dark indoors, which is why I wore all white.

J

J011yroger

03-24-2009, 03:59 AM

FYI that particular serve was a 2nd out wide to the BH.

J

larry10s

03-24-2009, 04:05 AM

If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?
since its a kicker the body alingment is a little different. but notice the contact point is still between the shoulder and head giving jolly that great position of the contact point where the racquet is angled left and not straight with the arm

larry10s

03-24-2009, 04:08 AM

I don't have any serves. Would it be best from a front 3/4 angle, or straight on from the side?

It is going to be cold this week, but if it warms up next week I will gladly shoot some.

High speed just comes out too dark indoors, which is why I wore all white.

J
srtaight from the right side would be best imho.contact point relative to the court and relative to your body can be seen with no angle distortion. if you can do all three serves that would be great.

J011yroger

03-24-2009, 04:13 AM

srtaight from the right side would be best imho.contact point relative to the court and relative to your body can be seen with no angle distortion. if you can do all three serves that would be great.

Ok, I will shoot some like that.

Will need a way to differentiate which serves are which on the high speed.

Maybe I will throw catcher signs before each serve.

J

Julieta

03-24-2009, 04:25 AM

since its a kicker the body alingment is a little different. but notice the contact point is still between the shoulder and head giving jolly that great position of the contact point where the racquet is angled left and not straight with the arm

I am looking at it in relation to the feet.

larry10s

03-24-2009, 04:36 AM

Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

These were shot in 210fps.

J
julietta look again . a line straight down from the contact point goes just inside jollys left foot as i see it.

J011yroger

03-24-2009, 04:36 AM

Thanks, I didnt see that last one in any of the earlier posts, sorry.

Is your shoulder okay now? Any recent problems?

No pain in almost 2 years. It aches and is sore if I play too much, or try to serve too hard in the cold, but I played 4 sets of singles in high 40's low 50's last sunday (2 off the ground, 2 S&V) and felt fine the next day.

I have my body pretty well figured out now, so I know when to listen to it, and when to tell it to shut up.

Pretty much know my limitations, when I can push it, and when I can't.

J

larry10s

03-24-2009, 04:36 AM

see pics post 146

gzhpcu

03-26-2009, 09:58 AM

I will try and summarize this thread. I was wondering if increasing the racket drop, by say, 6 inches would make much of a difference, seeing that the motion of the racket only starts to accelerate prior to impact about half way up from the point of maximum racket drop. I see now that it offers advantages, for the following reasons:

The extent of the racket drop is somewhat analogous to arm pronation: by itself, it does not directly contribute to racket speed , but is an indication that your arm is nice and loose and that biomechanically you are properly loading all the necessary components of the kinetic chain for an optimal serve (extension of the legs, loose arm, movement of mass of the racket).

The greater racket drop stabilizes the trajectory and sets the racket better in postion for the ensuing impact of the ball.