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View Full Version : What is the ATP doing with Davis Cup ranking points?


Zaragoza
03-09-2009, 05:23 AM
I checked the rankings and I can't understand it. I have seen 3 different situations:

1- Nadal (80 pts.), Roddick (80 pts.),Ferrer (40 pts.)...their points are nowhere:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=N409

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=R485

2- Berdych (40 pts.), Kohlschreiber (40 pts.)...their points are listed but are not countable:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=BA47

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=K435

3- Sela (80 pts.)...his points are already counting:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=SC56


These are the rules:

Davis Cup points will be awarded for the first time in 2009 for World Group and World Group playoff ties only. Points allocated are as part of the 500 point category. Davis Cup does not count towards a player's commitment to the 500 category. The points accumulated in the four ties within the previous 52 weeks can become part of a player's 500 category if:

1. Player has not more than three 500 results within the previous 52 weeks and Davis Cup result(s) is better than lowest best other.
2. Player has four 500 results within the previous 52 weeks and Davis Cup result(s) is better than the lowest 500. Also, 500 0-pointers cannot be replaced.

I don't see why Nadal, Roddick, Ferrer...can't already add these points (they have not played more than 3 Masters 500) and why the 3 different situations at this point.

Another thing I don't understand and I find ridiculous are the dates these points are earned and the drop date. If you look at the points breakdown they count as points earned on 1 Jan '09 (so I guess if you earn points in the Davis Cup final on December '09 they will count as points earned on 1 Jan '09) and the drop date of these points is 31 Dec'09.
So does it mean that points earned in the Davis Cup final only count for 1 month (the offseason month)? Aren't those points meaningless then?

Why don't they add ranking points as soon as players earn them and establish the drop date one year after the last Davis Cup match that gave them ranking points? Wouldn't it be more fair and logic?

Why don't they respect the 52 weeks rule for Davis Cup ranking points?

I think this is unfair for players that win Davis Cup matches and a mess for players and fans.

vive le beau jeu !
03-09-2009, 06:30 AM
i was smelling a big upcoming mess with this story of davis cup points... :rolleyes:
... here we are !

but i think they are not "ready" yet to take this innovation into account (remember the "doubling episode" ? it took them one more day to put the things correctly)... the rankings must not be up to date... do you see davis cup in roddick's ranking points breakdown ? http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/7.gif (i don't... even in non-counting results)
i see nadal's on the other hand... but they are not "counting".

oranges
03-09-2009, 06:59 AM
I'm guessing they should keep a tally of DC points for every player and count them when it's better than other 500 series results. Seems they did just that with Berdych and co., but messed up with some others. They wouldn't count them for Nadal and Roddick anyway ATM because they have better results elsewhere. Even though those are not 500, they can still count them until enough 500 have been played, if I understood correctly.
As for drop date, it is ridiculous to drop DC points basically as soon as the next season starts. It woudl be logical to drop them when the last of those points were earned.

Joseph L. Barrow
03-09-2009, 07:34 AM
Yes, I see Nadal and Roddick both have their Davis Cup points listed in the "non-countable" category, when according to the rules, they should be in the "500" category, in which case both guys should just get the points added directly onto their actual counting totals.

Leublu tennis
03-09-2009, 09:07 AM
It would also be nice if the DC folk and/or ATP would announce how many points individual participants in the DC won. Player by player. How does one get 500?? Or the lesser amounts? Whats the standard. In other tournaments they print ahead of time how many points a player will get for reaching a certain round. What are the rules here? How do players earn points? Anyone know how to pose questions to the ATP guru, whats his name?

Zaragoza
03-09-2009, 09:19 AM
http://www.daviscup.com/news/newsarticle.asp?articleid=14562

vive le beau jeu !
03-09-2009, 10:20 AM
http://www.daviscup.com/news/newsarticle.asp?articleid=14562
thx for the link !

still no points for countries in lower groups (not even small amounts)... that makes it even more unfair.

Performance bonus awarded to a singles player who wins 8 live matches
(i guess "live" means a match that isn't a dead rubber, right ?)

so you have more chances to get this bonus with a team that wins all the ties closely (and makes you play 2 "live" singles each time) than having a strong team that wins all its ties 3-0 !
sounds weird... but well, it was impossible to make logical and fair rules by awarding ATP points for davis cup, that's why i don't like this idea.

Leublu tennis
03-09-2009, 01:06 PM
http://www.daviscup.com/news/newsarticle.asp?articleid=14562
Thanks. I guess I understand. Points for the DC are cumulative over the previous 52 weeks so you really don't know what a player will get until the 52 weeks are over. What would be helpful would be if the ATP were to set up a separate category in the "ranking breakdown section", a category like "DC play" and show when the player's 52 week period ends.

I note that it says 52 weeks and not a calendar year. I guess this means that, in the situation where player A plays in the first round but player B does not play until some further quarter, then the 52 week period is different for those two players. Nadal played this round so his 52 weeks start in March but Federer did not play. So, if Federer plays in the next quarter, then his 52 weeks start in July? Is that right?

vive le beau jeu !
03-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Another thing I don't understand and I find ridiculous are the dates these points are earned and the drop date. If you look at the points breakdown they count as points earned on 1 Jan '09 (so I guess if you earn points in the Davis Cup final on December '09 they will count as points earned on 1 Jan '09) and the drop date of these points is 31 Dec'09.
So does it mean that points earned in the Davis Cup final only count for 1 month (the offseason month)? Aren't those points meaningless then?

Why don't they add ranking points as soon as players earn them and establish the drop date one year after the last Davis Cup match that gave them ranking points? Wouldn't it be more fair and logic?

Why don't they respect the 52 weeks rule for Davis Cup ranking points?

I think this is unfair for players that win Davis Cup matches and a mess for players and fans.
hey zaragoza... just an idea (hypothesis ?) about the drop date.
maybe it's for avoiding the potential situation i was mentionning some months ago ?
whatever the system they choose, i can't imagine anything fair in terms of rankings.

and another weird thing is that in some circumstances, some players won't be able to defend their points (if their team is eliminated)
i can't imagine the #1 spot being decided at the end of the year, after the masters... while waiting for a guy to lose davis cup points from the previous year final... points that he couldn't even defend on the court ! :???:
what do you think about it ?...

Zaragoza
03-09-2009, 01:47 PM
hey zaragoza... just an idea (hypothesis ?) about the drop date.
maybe it's for avoiding the potential situation i was mentionning some months ago ?

what do you think about it ?...

Please don't make it more difficult than it is ;-)
I'm even getting different stats depending on the browser I'm using (updated with internet explorer/outdated with mozilla firefox), maybe there's something wrong with cookies?

As for your question, there's not a perfect situation but the current rules make no sense and are unfair. If the Davis Cup final is played after the Masters Cup there's always a chance that the year end rankings change after the Masters Cup (by gaining points in the final) so they can never completely avoid that possibility with this schedule.
The drop date of Davis Cup points on 31 Dec. makes no sense and is totally unfair to players that win Davis Cup matches. How worth are ranking points for winning matches in the Davis Cup final if they drop a few weeks later before the new season starts? Why don't they keep those points in the next 52 weeks after the last match won/worth of ranking points?
And how worth are Davis Cup points if they're not inmediately added and have such a short life? I don't like the treatment Davis Cup is receiving from the ATP.

pabloJD
03-09-2009, 05:19 PM
I guess points from Davis Cup final will fall off the week after Paris Indoors the following year, just like the masters cup, so they will last 49 weeks. Then they'll be replaced the week after that year's DC final is played. So, DC final could decide the year-end #1. But it's just a guess...

Zaragoza
03-09-2009, 05:26 PM
I guess points from Davis Cup final will fall off the week after Paris Indoors the following year, just like the masters cup, so they will last 49 weeks. Then they'll be replaced the week after that year's DC final is played. So, DC final could decide the year-end #1. But it's just a guess...

Did you see the drop date of Davis Cup points? It says 31 Dec.'09. They counted them as if they were earned on 1 Jan.'09.

pabloJD
03-09-2009, 06:21 PM
Did you see the drop date of Davis Cup points? It says 31 Dec.'09. They counted them as if they were earned on 1 Jan.'09.

Yes, of course you're right about that. But since 31 Dec 09 is not even a Monday, I don't know if that's very reliable. The ATP Rulebook is not very clear about that topic (at all). The idea I'm getting of it is that the DC result will be a permanent result that will go up and down after each round. I think early rounds points will last 52 weeks and points from the final will last 49. So, the DC result itself (the total) never really drops off (that's why the weird date), just the points from each round drop off after 52/49 weeks.

Regards

vive le beau jeu !
03-11-2009, 02:05 AM
I checked the rankings and I can't understand it. I have seen 3 different situations:

1- Nadal (80 pts.), Roddick (80 pts.),Ferrer (40 pts.)...their points are nowhere:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=N409

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=R485

2- Berdych (40 pts.), Kohlschreiber (40 pts.)...their points are listed but are not countable:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=BA47

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=K435

3- Sela (80 pts.)...his points are already counting:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/playerprofiles/pointsbreakdown.asp?player=SC56

one thing i don't get in the current rankings... it's that they seem to take only 5 (counting) results (including the "0" in some cases, but this, we understood it) among the 250 and 500 tournaments for the top players (in your examples : nadal, roddick, berdych and kohlschreiber).

but when i read the rules, i see this :
A player who is out of competition for 30 or more days, due to a verified injury, will not receive any penalties. For other players outside the Top 30, the ranking structure that applies, IF QUALIFIED, will be four Grand Slam tournaments and eight ATP World Tour Masters 1000 tournaments. The Best 6 with up to 4 ATP World Tour 500 results will also be counted towards the ranking. If a player is not a Direct Acceptance and did not play a Grand Slam or Masters 1000 tournament, he can substitute with ATP World Tour 250 and/or Challengers. The eight players who qualify for the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals will count an additional 19th tournament on their ranking.
from: http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#pointvalue

what point did i miss ?... http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/7.gif


and for ending on a funny note, another excerpt from the rules :
As part of our changes to the ATP World Tour, we have looked to introduce one rankings system that is as easy to follow as possible.
:rolleyes:

tahiti
03-11-2009, 02:33 AM
Yes, you have to just love the last line. :) I heard or read somewhere that the DC points are only added at the end of the year. But don't quote me on that because I am as :confused: you are.

Gen
03-11-2009, 04:47 AM
I've asked around, and received the following answer, which makes sense to me:

"Think of DC the same way you think about MC. It is not an ATP 500 but in the ranking breakdown it will be alocated along with ATP 500 results.
A player can get up to 625 points with DC (if he plays 2 live matches on every round and wins the title).
If you look into Nadal's ranking on ATP, his points are there, they weren't used because he is not finished on DC yet as Spain qualified to QF. I think the points will be countable either after the final (to all players) or when a team is eliminated or wins the whole thing because it means players points won't change anymore. Right now Rafa's points can change if he wins any matches in the next round.

1st Round loss 10
1st Round 40
1st Round 40 (80)
Quarterfinals 65 (145)
Quarterfinals 65 (210)
Semifinals 70 (280)
Semifinals 70 (350)
Final 75 (425)
Final 75 (500 *)
Final 75 (125**) (625 **)
* Team bonus awarded to a singles player who wins 7 live matches and his team wins the competition

** Performance bonus awarded to a singles player who wins 8 live matches"