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paddyslad
03-04-2005, 07:56 PM
I am really upset with Patrick Mcenroe chosing such a slow court. This one of a number of mistakes that P-Mac has made.

Last year he chose Mardy Fish over Vince Spadea for the final against Spain. The Americans got to watch Nadal and Moya party on the big stage. Vince Spadea was clearly a better choice. He was ranked higher and he plays on clay much better than Fish. I think we would have won.

I know Patrick just signed an extension until 2006. Why? When is the last Davis cup we won, 10 years ago! Thats right 1995! What a joke.

I have some ideas on guys. Tell me your thoughts.

Vlad
03-04-2005, 08:02 PM
Well, what is your suggestion to play on a fast court where Ivan and Maria are at their best? nope... clay? there are not many clay courters in US... Agassi and Roddick both like slow hard courts.. whatever commentators are going to say about the surface, I think it is just about right. I think they were saying these things just becuase Andre was losing came up with excuses.. Andre loves high rebound, slow pace courts just like in AO, we are all know that. Another thing is that Andre is not at his best right now... that is clear.

paddyslad
03-04-2005, 08:07 PM
I think in a short format like that, I think Brad Gilbert would be the best for quick adjustments to players games. He is a thinker and he knows the game. His coaching reach two guys to #1 in Agassi and Roddick. As a player, he was ranked #4 in the world. Who has those credentials as a player and a coach?

I think Dean Goldfine would be a good pick as well.

raftermania
03-04-2005, 08:35 PM
Just out of curiousity, is it legal for a women to coach a davis cup team and a man to coach a fed cup team?

devila
03-04-2005, 08:42 PM
PMac is only captain because of his brother John. Today, we saw his true character. He joined Agassi in a desperate, expletive-filled, contrived argument with the umpire.

Why don't the commentators shut the hell up and accept that Agassi's victories came only when he played immature and scared players?
John McEnroe denied that Agassi's game had technical problems.
For a person who's supposedly a legend, he sure is ignorant.

BaseLineBash
03-04-2005, 08:52 PM
Devila...if you're here who is running hell? That's the only thing in question.

devila
03-04-2005, 08:56 PM
My hell is on Earth. muhahahaha

SydW
03-04-2005, 10:39 PM
Well, what is your suggestion to play on a fast court where Ivan and Maria are at their best? nope... clay? there are not many clay courters in US... Agassi and Roddick both like slow hard courts.. whatever commentators are going to say about the surface, I think it is just about right. I think they were saying these things just becuase Andre was losing came up with excuses.. Andre loves high rebound, slow pace courts just like in AO, we are all know that. Another thing is that Andre is not at his best right now... that is clear.

Bingo. This is getting pathetic for Andre, I'm sure he went back to DC thinking that can be his last shot of winning something big before retiring seeing his chances in slams are fading away.

I thought Pat was idiot choosing Fish over Spadea against Spain last year but the court here? I too think they are only saying it making excuses to Andre loss.

Deuce
03-04-2005, 10:54 PM
Stan Smith.

Max G.
03-04-2005, 11:10 PM
I think that the court they chose was right. A slow hardcourt was their best bet. It's Andre's best surface - the Oz Open where he won the most Slams is a relatively slow hardcourt.

Picking clay would have been ludicrous - neither Andre nor Andy are comfortable on the stuff. Picking a fast court would play right into the strengths of the croatians, who all have big serves. Hence, a slow hardcourt was the best bet.

devila
03-05-2005, 01:39 AM
Andre escaped his match in the French Open vs. Ancic because Ancic ran out of energy. He was up 2 sets, then he fell down and never recovered.
Ancic's a superior volleyer and matched Andre at the baseline, but he lacked the agility, footwork and fitness.

Andre was blasted off the court by Melzer and Ljubicic.
McEnroe convinced Andre to play 5 setters to prepare for Slams. Sadly, the rest of the team were so obsessed with Andre, they forgot reality.
Dent/Spadea would do a better job vs. Ljubicic/Ancic. The U.S. Team's crap.
Accept it. Move on.

VamosRafa
03-05-2005, 01:56 AM
When Pat is ready to step down, I hope Jim Courier steps up.

AndrewD
03-05-2005, 02:57 AM
It barely matters who you choose. A great team will make a great coach, not the other way around. All you need is someone who can create the right kind of team atmosphere, do the organisational work and that's it. Still, I really think that whoever you pick shouldn't be a commentator. Get the USTA to start treating the captaincy like a job and hire someone who'll be coach plus do a lot of grassroots work. Don't hire some guy who just wants to add it to his 'personal resume' but someone who is willing to work the job, not fit it in to his schedule.

As to the court surface, just remember in the Davis Cup you are only allowed to play on a surface that is "widely utilised" in your country. In the States that excludes things like European clay and grass.

raftermania,
I believe Yannick Noah was coach of the French Fed Cup team (Forget was as well I think) and Im certain there's nothing in the rules that says a woman couldn't coach the Davis Cup squad.

Max G.
03-05-2005, 03:56 AM
As to the court surface, just remember in the Davis Cup you are only allowed to play on a surface that is "widely utilised" in your country. In the States that excludes things like European clay and grass.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. You're only allowed to play on a surface that's "widely utilized" worldwide - and this includes grass and European clay.

VamosRafa
03-05-2005, 04:06 AM
You are right. USA, as host country, has put down a grass court.

Houston, USA vs ESP, 2002, Davis Cup.

Noelle
03-05-2005, 04:23 AM
Just out of curiousity, is it legal for a women to coach a davis cup team and a man to coach a fed cup team?
I haven't heard of a woman coaching a Davis Cup team, but Guy Forget coached France's Fed Cup team last year.

andfor
03-05-2005, 07:07 AM
I haven't heard of a woman coaching a Davis Cup team, but Guy Forget coached France's Fed Cup team last year.

I pretty sure he was kidding around. It's not like the coach has to change the players jock strap or be in the shower with them.

Haka Boy
03-05-2005, 05:23 PM
Can anybody explain to me the reasons exactly why Patrick McEnroe was elected Davis Cup captain. I've done a search it appears his strongest asset is having John as his brother.

andfor
03-05-2005, 05:30 PM
Can anybody explain to me the reasons exactly why Patrick McEnroe was elected Davis Cup captain. I've done a search it appears his strongest asset is having John as his brother.

That's good enough for me. He was a former world top 30 and as high as 3 in the world in doubles. He's a Stanford guy so he's not exactly dumb, knows his way around the political tennis scene and has a decent success rate getting the top US players excited about playing. Am I missing something?

arosen
03-05-2005, 05:49 PM
andfor, you got it all covered, except one unfortunate thing: US Davis cup team is facing elimination right now in the first round of play. Holy s..it.

Haka Boy
03-05-2005, 06:00 PM
'andfor' I understand patriotism but surely you can look at his record as davis cup captain and wonder why he's still there.

Even more so after the davis cup doubles final scoreline.

decent success rate getting the top US players excited about playing. Is that a reference to getting Agassi playing?

raftermania
03-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Hay Haka Boy, you can't blame it on the coach... American tennis in general has been in a drought. You can't expect a 34/33 year old agassi to help save the Americans. Roddick is their flagship player and he's pulling his part of the rubbers. The Bryan Brothers losing is a pure anomaly, they should have won. I know one of them is struggling with an injury (hip?), which was likely one of the bigger factors.

Don't panic guys, Patrick is doing a great job with what he's got. If you want to hear what he has to say about his team, check out his recent two-page interview on tennisweek.com, as andfor said above, Pat is a learned fellow, he speaks extremely well and is the epitome of professionalism. When Johnny Mac was in his position before him, he bailed, not because he was doing a crap job - but because he wasn't getting the players. PMac was is that position, but only he didn't bail, he used what he had and did a superb job at it. If the Americans lose, it will be based on bad luck:

-a fatigued agassi (from dubai/jet lag), also can't discount the amazing play from Lubby lately
-injured bryan brother

Kaptain Karl
03-05-2005, 10:57 PM
Haka - If you're a Kiwi, what do you care?

andfor and raftermania have it right. Mac gave up on DC because the best US players would not play. PMac went with what he could get; started a youth movement and has reinvigorated US interest in Davis Cup ... almost single-handedly.

Agassi himself said Luby simply made the Dubai - CA adjustment better and faster than Andre did. And hasn't Luby made four recent finals in tourneys? He's on a resurgence of sorts....

Interesting that as I post, Jim Courier is the leading vote getter on the poll. I wonder if he would have the same ability to establish rapport with the players and handle the diplomacy and politics which plain accompany the position...?

- KK

Haka Boy
03-05-2005, 11:55 PM
What just because im from New Zealand I'm not allowed to follow the USA team.

Kaptain Karl
03-06-2005, 12:05 AM
Don't get so defensive. I didn't post any such thing. And I still don't know why you care....

- KK

Haka Boy
03-06-2005, 12:18 AM
Thats funny you telling me not to get defensive. According to other posts Pmac is not popular as a captain, and I am allowed to have an opinion, like many others on this board.

K!ck5w3rvE
03-06-2005, 01:56 AM
Jim Courier.

AndrewD
03-06-2005, 02:12 AM
No, the ruling is that the surface has to be widely used in YOUR country. I guess the US count Newport and a couple of other places as enough to qualify but, remember the protests when they laid a red clay court for the tie against Australia a few years back? They got away with it because they were able to find some examples (about 3 ) nationwide although it was seen as gross neglect of sportsmanship. Another year Austria layed an 'experimental' clay court and should have been forced to forfeit the tie or change the venue but were allowed to get away with it. The ITF might be too weak to enforce the rule, however, the rule is most definately there.

To illustrate the distinction, Paraguay hosted ties on courts with a wooden surface and India hosted ties on courts utilising cow dung as a surface. Those definately aren't in use in other countries but happen to be in Paraguay and India, therefore making them legal for Davis Cup play.

VamosRafa
03-06-2005, 02:31 AM
What just because im from New Zealand I'm not allowed to follow the USA team.

I agree. Total kudos to you for taking such an interest in Davis Cup.

And the Kiwi comment was uncalled for, IMO. Having been down in your neck of the woods, I know that the appellation is not appreciated by New Zealanders.

Max G.
03-06-2005, 04:12 AM
No, the ruling is that the surface has to be widely used in YOUR country. I guess the US count Newport and a couple of other places as enough to qualify but, remember the protests when they laid a red clay court for the tie against Australia a few years back? They got away with it because they were able to find some examples (about 3 ) nationwide although it was seen as gross neglect of sportsmanship. Another year Austria layed an 'experimental' clay court and should have been forced to forfeit the tie or change the venue but were allowed to get away with it. The ITF might be too weak to enforce the rule, however, the rule is most definately there.

To illustrate the distinction, Paraguay hosted ties on courts with a wooden surface and India hosted ties on courts utilising cow dung as a surface. Those definately aren't in use in other countries but happen to be in Paraguay and India, therefore making them legal for Davis Cup play.

Are you sure? I just looked up the rules/regulations from Daviscup.com ( http://www.daviscup.com/about/rulesregs.asp ); the section about surfaces reads:

9 Surface of Courts and Playing Conditions

(a) Surface
The surface of the courts to be used in the Competition shall be grass turf; a natural or artificial fine gritty material; cement; or a bituminous composition or a synthetic surface; but in no case shall a Tie be played on a surface of stone or any other surface except by mutual agreement between the two Nations competing. If the Host Nation under normal conditions as determined by the Referee is unable to provide a playable match court at the scheduled starting time, the Home Nation shall forfeit the Tie and the Visiting Nation shall be determined the winner of the Tie. The Referee may extend the starting time if, in his opinion, the match court could satisfactorily be made playable within a reasonable time which shall not exceed three hours. For all Ties in the World Group and Group I the court surface must be of a type used in a Grand Slam Tournament or in a minimum of three tournaments in the Menís Professional Tour held in the year previous to the Tie.

Note: For the purpose of this regulation íNORMAL CONDITIONSí refers to a situation when, for example, the weather and climate conditions are good and satisfactory for play but the match court, due to negligence by the Home Nation and/or court manufacturer, still fails to be playable in the opinion of the Referee. Rain or other unavoidable hindrance beyond the control of anyone would not constitute a reason for the Referee to call off a Tie and award the victory to the Visiting Nation.

(b) Artificial Lighting
Play is allowed with artificial lighting in the open air after sunset or on covered courts provided there is a minimum of 500 lux per square metre (1,200 lux in the case of the World Group), evenly distributed over the court surface, and practice facilities for both teams with similar lighting are available. All measurements are to be taken one metre above the playing surface.

(c) General Conditions for the Tie
The Davis Cup Committee may, at any time, at its discretion intervene if, in its opinion, the conditions for or the circumstances surrounding any Tie, including but without limitation to, the climate, court surface or local organisation do not or are unlikely to ensure the maintenance at all times of the high ideals of the competition.


The sections I have bolded deal with the allowable surfaces; they don't mention anything about the surface being widely used in the host country.

andfor
03-06-2005, 07:32 AM
All, I wrote my response before the Bryan's lost their first set and eventually their first match ever. If there is an excuse such as an injury to me it really does not do much good to labor it.

Haka, Your reference to my post of patriotism is meritless. Although I am patriotic I would have used the word loyalty instead. And yes I was refering to Agassi finally playing DC.

RafterM, Well said. Especially about Agassi. He should not be expected to win the DC for the US single handedly. However if Roddick wins today I guess he can win this tie for us, (the US). We'll see, right.

KK, Excellent points about PMAC. Imagine the pressure this guy faces. We can say we understand, but we don't. He's living it and represents well in every aspect.

MaxG. I LOVE IT when someone posts the facts. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Finally, I'll leave you with two thoughts.

1. Courier would be a fine choice. But in this world of win now or be fired I would be against firing PMAC unless he did something totally stupid, like burning down the USTA offices. Courier while he had a more steller playing career CAN NOT play the matches. He would coach. Let's don't start a coaching carosel in the quest for the DC, that would be a bigger mistake. Remember, PMAC has had Courier as a staffmember on his teams.

2. Coaches coach and players play. Ultimately we are left with that. It's up to the players who are ultimately the winners and losers of whatever the final outcome is. Coaching plays such a small part in the final outcome. Maybe 5%-10% difference. I got the 5%-10% from JonnyMac.
PMAC or any coach does not play, get it?

In the case of US Davis Cup firing/replacing PMAC is not the answer.

The problem the US has had for years was getting Connors, JohnnyMac, Agassi and Sampras to play together at the same time. That's history now. Time to move on.

For those like me who want US to finally win it again, hang in there. The worldwide talent in tennis makes winning this competition more difficult than ever. That combined with a little luck, I stress little, compound an already complicated winning formula. My hats off to those countires who have won it, ever.

devila
03-06-2005, 09:02 AM
Mike Bryan's hip is bad. McEnroe chose to kiss up to Agassi and they'll blame
Roddick for every loss. The Bryans kept jumping around and celebrating in the 1st set because everyone believed they were too good. That smugness shows in PMc's interviews too. He put on a desperate smile and quickly changed the subject from the Bryans/Agassi to Roddick's "great fitness." He predicted so many things that never came true. Perhaps he can predict a psychiatric appointment soon.

He can at least try not to humiliate the players by being deceitful and boastful about Agassi and the Bryans.
I guess his dream of everlasting fame after winning 2005-2006 Davis Cups won't come true. In his words "it's urgent."

debbie_b
03-06-2005, 03:19 PM
Devila your right Mac real desire is "for his own everlasting fame". Imagine the pressure he has the team under.

In playing the Davis Cup the captain has a huge role in guiding his team!!

Patrick McEnroe: His results as Davis Cup captain of the nation with the most quality players in the world have just plain sucked. His selections have been questionable (just ask Vince Spadea) and he has not been able to inspire his best players to Davis Cup greatness. Paging Jim Courier!

Haka boy thank you for rooting for the US team, although it seems on this board you have to be an american to do this.

andfor
03-06-2005, 05:10 PM
Patrick McEnroe: His results as Davis Cup captain of the nation with the most quality players in the world have just plain sucked. His selections have been questionable (just ask Vince Spadea) and he has not been able to inspire his best players to Davis Cup greatness. Paging Jim Courier!

I guess your saying that if Vince played against Spain and Courier was the captain the US would have won. OK you can say what ever you want. But I don't think so. Remember Courier was on the bench then so you had it half right.

Coaches get to much credit when they win and to much blame when they lose.

debbie_b
03-06-2005, 05:30 PM
I guess your saying that if Vince played against Spain and Courier was the captain the US would have won.

I didnt say or mean that. Take off you pmac rose coloured glasses and take an unbiased look at my post.

I was referring to his inconsistant team selection skills........sometimes he goes on ranking the next on form. I guess it comes down to which side of the bed he wakes up on the day.

Coaches get to much credit when they win and to much blame when they lose. Fact of life- he's the captain and has the end responsibility for the team. Thats why they appoint Davis Cup captains.

andfor
03-06-2005, 05:43 PM
I didnt say or mean that. Take off you pmac rose coloured glasses and take an unbiased look at my post.

I was referring to his inconsistant team selection skills........sometimes he goes on ranking the next on form. I guess it comes down to which side of the bed he wakes up on the day.

Since you follow PMAC's selection moves so closely why don't you rehash all his losses and show us who he should have selected. Follow that up with how that would have changed the outcome of each tie the US lost. You're so unbiased show me. Other than the Vince Spadea (he would not have made a difference against Spain and you know it anyway) example, show us he screwed up each and every time and I might change my mind.

debbie_b
03-06-2005, 05:59 PM
Even you could not answer the propostion you have set me.
My point is AGAIN to look at his stint at captaincy. Look at his whole career as Davis Cup captain as my example as his leadership qualities, he has some of the best players in the world and he still cant do it regardless of who he picks as his team. ITS NOT THE PLAYERS FAULT ITS HIS. If he hasnt done it by now he never will.

andfor
03-06-2005, 06:12 PM
I was referring to his inconsistant team selection skills........sometimes he goes on ranking the next on form.

Your quote not mine. If I said it I would be ready to back it up.

Marius_Hancu
03-06-2005, 06:19 PM
I'd say look at PatMac in the commentators' box and you'll see the definition of lack of leadership.

Haka Boy
03-06-2005, 06:24 PM
It seems on this board freedom of speech and opinions is just a myth. Dare say anything that upsets anyone and you have a literacy tirade on your hands.

As a mere idiot from New Zealand I will go out on a limb yet again and stand by for the attack....andfor you have your opinion but in part I agree with Debbie_b. His selections have been at times controversial and if he hasnt produced the goods by know I doubt he ever will.

andfor
03-06-2005, 06:48 PM
It seems on this board freedom of speech and opinions is just a myth. Dare say anything that upsets anyone and you have a literacy tirade on your hands.

As a mere idiot from New Zealand I will go out on a limb yet again and stand by for the attack....andfor you have your opinion but in part I agree with Debbie_b. His selections have been at times controversial and if he hasnt produced the goods by know I doubt he ever will.

If someone finds disagreement with someone who says anything they want without any facts to back it up, what's wrong with questioning them? I am not upset with what anyone says here. I will say it's what they don't say is what dissapoints me.

Haka, It's very nice of you to defend debbieb but she still has not answered my question.

This was the best team the US put out there in a while and we still got beat. Could it be Croatia is better than the US (coaching aside). It is pretty clear they were this weekend. Now some here are blaming the surface selected to play on. Will anyone ever give credit to the Croat's who played and won their matches. I do.

Haka Boy
03-06-2005, 07:26 PM
I dont think debbie_b even needs to answer your question....its you that didnt understand her original meaning.
By your posts you are pretty riled up. Yes Croatia is to be congratulated but dont you see there is more to it than that. The role of captain is in part to be a guiding force and inspiration to his team.

In another thread a comment by FalconX apart from all of that he looks like a ****** too, sitting there shaking his head getting emotional all the time That sure must be an inspiration to the players.

Kaptain Karl
03-07-2005, 07:59 AM
And the Kiwi comment was uncalled for, IMO. Having been down in your neck of the woods, I know that the appellation is not appreciated by New Zealanders.That would be "news" to my two NZ friends here ... who regularly refer to themselves as "Kiwis"....

VR - I think you are "pretending"....

- KK

joe sch
03-07-2005, 08:48 AM
Ljubicic is the difference. The way he has been playing the last few months and the way he beat the both Agassi, Roddick and teamed up with Ancic in dubs to upset the Bryans was the difference. I dont think Andre, Andy or Pmac should be questioned, anybody who understands the game and watched Ljubicic performance over these 3 matches should just be congratulating him for an *outstanding* performance ! Even Andre personally went into the croats locker room on his way out to congratuate them on an outstanding *win*. Thats class ! We need to stop looking for excuses and admit we were just defeated so our program can continue to improve, not self destruct.

Rabbit
03-07-2005, 09:20 AM
In the tie against Spain that was played at the WestSide Country Club in Houston Texas, the surface of choice was grass. Pete Sampras said they were the best grass courts in the States....and then lost to Corretja on grass. The host country can pick any surface. I don't even think it has to be widely utilized. I think a tie was played on a dung court in India in the past.

baseliner
03-07-2005, 09:49 AM
Rabbit, I believe the host Indians made a point of saying the dried cow dung was sterilized and posed no health problems. How would you like to sprawl face first while diving for a ball into cow manure? If memory serves correct, we lost that tie too.

Kaptain Karl
03-07-2005, 09:52 AM
Yup. Luby's been playing extremely good tennis the last few months. Give them their due. They beat us. They earned it.

- KK

Haka Boy
03-07-2005, 12:01 PM
That would be "news" to my two NZ friends here ... who regularly refer to themselves as "Kiwis"....

VR - I think you are "pretending"....

- KK

Your right I'm a Kiwi and thats what we call ourselves.

Rabbit
03-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Rabbit, I believe the host Indians made a point of saying the dried cow dung was sterilized and posed no health problems. How would you like to sprawl face first while diving for a ball into cow manure? If memory serves correct, we lost that tie too.

Validation.

Well, my teenage years were spent here in the deep south. They use cow patties down here like frisbees. It was explained to me early on that it's nothing more than grass. So, to answer your question....as long as it's dry....I don't care. :)

Kaptain Karl
03-07-2005, 10:34 PM
....as long as it's dry....
A rather important distinction(!).

- KK

Rabbit
03-08-2005, 05:29 PM
A rather important distinction(!).

- KK

LMAO - I'm glad someone picked up on that....

Chadwixx
03-08-2005, 05:32 PM
im changing my vote to stan smith. he cares more about the tennis than the camera, if he would do it.

predrag
03-09-2005, 07:29 AM
Can there be another potential candidate added?

How about hiring Niki Pilic?

:):):)

raftermania
03-09-2005, 12:38 PM
Lets throw Bud Colins in the DC drivers seat. The US just lost in the first round with an all-star cast - what do they have to lose???? Oh yeah, co-coach Nick Bolletierie

Kaptain Karl
03-09-2005, 02:53 PM
[KK will flee the USA and plead for assylum in Canada if that happens.]

- KK

dennis1188
03-10-2005, 12:19 PM
I just have a very strong feeling that, Todd Martin, will be the next U.S.A. DC, captain.
The USA 'tennis establishment', likes loyal, safe, stable . TM has been a strong DC team supporter (he has been working w/ the current DC team) and is now looking for some post-career focus. He is somewhat like a younger Stan Smith and 'fits' their profile (he is one of their own gang).