PDA

View Full Version : Grey Market - Unauthorized racquet discussion


racingdad23
03-18-2009, 12:34 PM
I dont know if TW will let this thread stay. I talked with Babolat today on this and they didnt feel it was a problem that affected their bussiness or reputation at all.

Before I start I am not going to reveal in this thread where to buy or even how much these cost but I will say it was a ridiculously low amount.

I'm in the import motorcycle bussiness. I import motorcycles and parts directly from China manufacturers. There has been lot of talk about counterfeit racquets, fakes, unauthorized copies etc. I talked with one of my motorcycle suppliers, discussed this with him and asked him to refer me to a company since there are literally hindreds that make these racquets. He did and I contacted them and asked for a price list and models offered. While being skeptical I asked if the racquet would meet manufacturers specifications. I was assured it would. So I went and bought two racquets from them. Keep in mind I wasnt expecting much more than a cheap, poorly made and barely recognizable as an official product you would buy from you local pro-shop and something that you or I would recognize very easily as a fake.

What I got was two racquets identical in specs to each other and to manufacturers listed specs. The finish was absolutely flawless. Nothing out of place, bar codes, holograms. even the covers and cardboard inserts were identical to manufacturers original covers. Nothing out of place, grommets perfect, absolutely identical in every way to an official Babolat racquet.

I called Babolat and told them I had purchased a racquet that I believed to be fake. We went over the racquet, he had me take the buttcap off and inspect the inside, asked about the staples used, about weight etc. The serial numbers were a non-issue since he said they could easily be copied. He told me it sounded like I had an official babolat racquet but....
finally we found a very very small item that confirmed it to be a unofficial Babolat racquet. Undeneath the size on the buttcap is a three letter code
about a 1/8 inch in size that determines which factory the racquet was made in. this buttcap didnt have it. ohhh... he informaed also Babolat no longer places holograms on their racquets.

I did not tell him that I bought the racquet directly from a China manufacturer but instead told him I bought it off ****. I asked him if the person selling them was breaking the law. He told me NO. He said he could call **** and get the listed removed but outside of that no law was being broken. He also said it just wasnt worth the effort for Babolat to go through since it really didnt affect their sales and to be honest he said unofficially it almost works as free advertising to them. Just these racquets were considered private sales and would have no warranty.

I told him the racquets I bought were Aero Storms which surprised him since he gets alot of calls about it and mostly it is pure drives and aeropro racquets. He also said their racquets are manufactured in several China factories and it is not uncommon for racquets to slip out the back doors and sold privately. It was really no big deal.

Ok so now I'm even more confused about grey market racquets. Its not against the law to sell them or buy them, the manufacturer could care less about their products being sold out the backdoor of their own plant or even copied and sold. I was all set up to have all my suspicions confirmed that these racquets would be poorly produced cheap knockoffs, not meet specs and the manufacturer would be up in arms about this. None of this happened.

The point of the discussion was to get fellow players views on this. The practice of producing, buying, selling and playing with these racquets and the ethics of this. Whats your opinion?

ollinger
03-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Interesting stuff. I've always wondered why there's so much paranoia about fakes on this board, since one is getting a racquet that may play just as well, perhaps better, at a fraction of the cost. It's surprising that the manufacturer isn't more concerned; seems like lots of companies pursue copyright infringers pretty vigorously.

klementine79
03-18-2009, 01:13 PM
If these racquets were manufactured in America or Europe, I gaurantee stricter controls when it comes to 'shrink' -as they call it in the manufacturing and retail business.

Since these products are made in China, low federal-taxes for foreign invsetment, with low-labor costs, no labor-unions and no employee health-care programs--these companies gain a huge upside in terms of profit.

The 'shrink' that occurs --i.e.--racquets slipping out of the backdoor-- is a negligable drawback.. and would actually cost the manufacturers more money to investigate employees and/or hunt down and prosecute private selling of authorized or 'immitation' products.

no_dark_things
03-18-2009, 02:11 PM
For the companies it is far cheaper to have their products made in China knowing full well that trademarks and patents will be infringed, product stolen and the specs made into knock-offs and fakes then sold throughout the world than to have them made in America.

Same thing with the golf industry.

samster
03-18-2009, 02:40 PM
For the companies it is far cheaper to have their products made in China knowing full well that trademarks and patents will be infringed, product stolen and the specs made into knock-offs and fakes then sold throughout the world than to have them made in America.

Same thing with the golf industry.

You pretty much summed up the situation!

monomakh
03-18-2009, 02:55 PM
Did it even have the serial number under the grip? You obviously have to take the grip off to find out, but on Babs, there should be a serial number under the grip that matches the one on the throat.

sureshs
03-18-2009, 04:06 PM
I think 2 issues are being intermingled. One is the problem of a factory sneaking out regular frames thru a back door and selling them. The other is a factory which is actively making fakes.

Deuce
03-19-2009, 01:52 AM
I think 2 issues are being intermingled. One is the problem of a factory sneaking out regular frames thru a back door and selling them. The other is a factory which is actively making fakes.
^ Indeed, it would appear so.

Also... while the original post does go into some detail, it does not state whether the two racquets purchased were actual 'fakes', or real Babolats that were 'snuck out the back door'.
It would seem the latter, but...

And nowhere is it mentioned how the two racquets played. Just because they appear ok on the outside doesn't necessarily mean that they will hit anything like the original - or even that they will hit decently.

Lastly, it is quite convenient to discuss all of these racquets made in China without mentioning the working conditions of those making the racquets - working conditions which very likely are considerably less than what would be accepted in North America.
It's quite a sad commentary on our culture today that such subjects are quietly and conveniently swept under the rug. But the fact is that every time one purchases an item made under less than acceptable working conditions (as is the case with much that is made in Asian countries), one is encouraging the unacceptable working conditions to continue.

max
03-19-2009, 02:20 AM
Ouch, Deuce, that hits close to home (pun intended)!

I particularly feel some remorse at buying a Chinese acoustic guitar. . . a slightly better American model came out a year after my purchase, only a few bucks more, but better finish, resale value.

stormholloway
03-19-2009, 02:40 AM
I find it amazing that there is a market for fake tennis racquets. I understand why counterfeit gold coins exist. But these are pieces of plastic. Makes ya think that tennis racquets are grossly overpriced. I wonder if it would be so easy to make fakes if wood were still the standard.

jetlee2k
03-19-2009, 06:42 AM
I've done many business in china and it practically can copy ANYTHING.. Many rackets are selling in South East Asia are fake or Wilson standard but make for Asia.. There is not one manufacture can duplicate but many.. If you find the right one, they can make one FLAWLESS.. They can copy many items much more high tech advance than racket.

One day I was in Shang Hai, I need urgently one electric generator for a client in Vietnam and we run out of it.. One chinese guy approach me and said gave him 2 hrs. Yup, 2 hrs later I was reading and see the exact spec and detail diagram of the thing.. It turned out even better than the one manufacture in Singapore.. and it's like 10 times cheaper..

LESider
03-19-2009, 08:56 AM
one of the reasons I'm using a Yonex frame is because of the Chinese work situation. Yonex = Japan
I only wear New Balance made in the USA.

Lefty78
03-19-2009, 09:14 AM
Any one know the name of the factory where they make Dunlop AG 100's? lol

dunno
03-19-2009, 09:30 AM
I want whatever factory is making Prostaff copies lol!

sureshs
03-19-2009, 09:47 AM
^ Indeed, it would appear so.

Also... while the original post does go into some detail, it does not state whether the two racquets purchased were actual 'fakes', or real Babolats that were 'snuck out the back door'.
It would seem the latter, but...


That is why I was surprised that someone would find it strange that the back door frames are equally good. They are the same frames, just transported out thru the back door instead of the front! Very common in electronics. That is why many companies get the read-only memory in chips programmed outside China - that way, the back door chips are of no use because they don't have the boot up code.

sureshs
03-19-2009, 09:50 AM
one of the reasons I'm using a Yonex frame is because of the Chinese work situation. Yonex = Japan
I only wear New Balance made in the USA.

Only 25% of NB shoes are made in the USA. It could be (don't know) that the remaining 75% is what is subsidizing this 25%.

monomakh
03-19-2009, 09:57 AM
one of the reasons I'm using a Yonex frame is because of the Chinese work situation. Yonex = Japan

Some models are made China. Just FYI.

Bhagi Katbamna
03-19-2009, 01:22 PM
Lastly, it is quite convenient to discuss all of these racquets made in China without mentioning the working conditions of those making the racquets - working conditions which very likely are considerably less than what would be accepted in North America.
It's quite a sad commentary on our culture today that such subjects are quietly and conveniently swept under the rug. But the fact is that every time one purchases an item made under less than acceptable working conditions (as is the case with much that is made in Asian countries), one is encouraging the unacceptable working conditions to continue.

I agree. Those Chinese workers should go back to their village farms. It doesn't matter that they might starve to death, it only matters that we feel smugly superior.

The people that work there are making a choice to work there because what they were doing before was worse and working at the racket factory gives them a chance at a better life.

sureshs
03-19-2009, 01:26 PM
I agree. Those Chinese workers should go back to their village farms. It doesn't matter that they might starve to death, it only matters that we feel smugly superior.

The people that work there are making a choice to work there because what they were doing before was worse and working at the racket factory gives them a chance at a better life.

He posted one extreme view, you posted the other. Reality is these factories provide jobs to many who would not otherwise be employed, and the wages they get are not all that less in their environment. Reality also is that farmland is forcibly taken away from them to build factories, and their old livelihood is destroyed, forcing them to take such jobs. There is no easy answer. It is played out in many parts of the world today.

ollinger
03-23-2009, 04:59 AM
So the advice is....don't purchase the Asian products so that living conditions there become more impoverished?? "Demand" better conditions for Asian workers? Sure!

ReopeningWed
03-23-2009, 09:32 PM
It's okay Deuce. I enjoy reading your opinion :)

ac3111
03-23-2009, 11:14 PM
In China people sell half litre of their blood for a few dollars...
The greediness of the Western world never changed or deteriorated, it just changed its mask (facade) from colonization and violent wars to capitalism and globalization of financial wars.

sureshs
03-24-2009, 07:52 AM
In China people sell half litre of their blood for a few dollars...
The greediness of the Western world never changed or deteriorated, it just changed its mask (facade) from colonization and violent wars to capitalism and globalization of financial wars.

Then why is it that India is crying foul about Obama's perceived protectionist policies? They want more free trade with the US, not less. Other way too - if China and India were not buying my employer's products, I would be out of work this moment in the current economy. Globalization holds up the economy in one place if the other goes under, and vice versa. Why is this any different from a company in LA wanting to expand it's business to Arizona?

Along with free trade comes cultural and political ideas, as it has throughout history. Free trade is very old. Ships were plying goods and people even BC. That is how science, culture and ideas spread. A closed country becomes prone to dictatorship and tyranny.

mary fierce
03-24-2009, 01:43 PM
Notwithstanding more obvious affronts like murder and violence, isn't it cultural imperialism (or let's call it societal imperialism) to insist that the entire world adhere to the standards of one's own country? And what is the "right" standard? Is the standard of living too high here or too low there? I couldn't say, but the notion that the rest of the world needs to adhere to American ways of doing things has been the soft underbelly of our foreign policy disasters for many decades.

Deuce
03-24-2009, 08:57 PM
Maybe because you insulted the poster personally by saying he has low standards? I don't know, I didn't see your post.
If, based on what other posters write, we are not 'allowed' to be of the opinion that they have low standards of what is acceptable and of what is possible, then we might as well pack this entire message board up right now.

'Political Correctness' is desperately trying to ruin civilization - while laughingly claiming to be trying to protect it.

sureshs
03-25-2009, 07:30 AM
Notwithstanding more obvious affronts like murder and violence, isn't it cultural imperialism (or let's call it societal imperialism) to insist that the entire world adhere to the standards of one's own country? And what is the "right" standard? Is the standard of living too high here or too low there? I couldn't say, but the notion that the rest of the world needs to adhere to American ways of doing things has been the soft underbelly of our foreign policy disasters for many decades.

True, but in certain cases the rest of the world cannot and should not keep quiet. Examples are:

Europe during the Third Reich
Apartheid in South Africa
Treatment of women in some religious fundamentalist nations
Horrible dictatorship in North Korea and Myanmar
Ethnic cleansing in the Balkans
Ethnic cleansing in parts of Africa

This has nothing to do with the standard of living per se. Also, war is not justified unless provoked but numerous other ways are available to put pressure.

If you are talking only about trade, you are correct the US should not insist on countries signing treaties and agreeing to convert farmland into factories and call-centers to serve the West. But it is often the other countries who are desperate to reach such an agreement. In that case, the MNCs needs to socially responsible in their operations abroad.

racingdad23
04-13-2009, 07:42 PM
Im carrying this over from a different thread to revive this one to shed some more light on these racquets...

So you think, because APDC is more popular, there are no fake APDs?

Wanna bet? So if I find you at least 2 websites selling fake (new) APDs for around $60, will you buy me Lefty's APD in return? :)

Why pay $60??? I can give you at least 100 websites that have them for $35-$38. All counterfeit. All made in China. APD, APDC, PDRC, ASC. Any brand any model including newer brands like Becker, Technifibre etc.. You name it..they copy it. I wont promote them and I wont give names. Dont email me I wont answer. Find them on your own if you must and buy at your own risk. And let me add the risk is very substantial.

If you buy it direct from China and the holes arent drilled right, weight off ...anything wrong your money is lost. They dont give it back. Paypal cant help you. Your credit card company cant help you. Besides it will cost you $40 just to send it back to China...and they'll say they never got it or they will refuse it.

There is a very high risk in buying racquets this way. Its just not worth it. Why am I doing it? Well it started out as curiosity now its become an obsession with compiling research in order to provided credible information regarding the risk of buying gray market, fake, counterfeit (whatever you want to call them) racquets. I have a full article that will be coming out in a Tennis publication in the near future. Essentially this is a spoiler but thats not the reason I posted this.

Personally I'm sick and tired of hearing "Did I buy a fake?" If you bought it off fleabay for half price its a damn fake. Plain and simple. If its not a authorized dealer its very likely it could be a fake. Dont be fooled by barcodes and holograms, they are easier to copy than the racquets themselves.

If in doubt dont do it. And if you do and get burned dont go whining about it. you knew darn well that it was possible. Man up and take some responsibility for your reckless greed.

The 3 racquets below all appear to be from different well known manufacturers. all three spec out to manufacturer listed specs. All come with all labels, barcodes, factory included dampeners and and thing else they come from a authorized dealer with. ALL THREE ARE FAKES. The cosmetics on these racquets are flawless. I challenge anyone to pick one up, feel the heft, inspect it and declare that it is a fake.

More to come.....


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/450/photo0272.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo0272.jpg)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5279/photo0273r.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo0273r.jpg)

ac3111
04-13-2009, 07:51 PM
If they match the unstrung weight, balance and flex specs of the real ones then Wilson and other manufacturers will face big problems because no one will be buying the real stuff if the fake plays and feels the same.
But racket is not just a piece of wood or furniture where you only need a good carpenter to make it.
I think if Wilson is not giving-lending or whatever the know-how I don't think it is that easy to build identical to the real ones rackets specwise.

taiketsu
04-13-2009, 10:10 PM
Wilson's tolerance for specs is so wide that I wouldn't be surprised if these fakes are improved enough to match the standards of the real thing.

Mansewerz
04-26-2009, 08:39 AM
How do they play?

Steve Huff
04-26-2009, 09:47 PM
The Chinese people HAVE to work cheap. If they didn't, companies would automate and replace them with more modern manufacturing systems. China has a huge population. Automation and modernization could put a huge number of people out of business and unemployed. Would that be good for China? Would that be good for the workers who just lost their jobs? Like everything economic, it boils down to supply and demand. China has a huge supply of workers. If wages went up, automation would cause the supply to increase even further, and wages would have to drop to create equilibrium. I guess they could get unions and artificially drive up prices to a point where firms would look elsewhere for production. Would that help them? It's taken awhile, but this is what has happened to US carmakers.

Deuce
04-26-2009, 10:16 PM
The Chinese people HAVE to work cheap. If they didn't, companies would automate and replace them with more modern manufacturing systems. China has a huge population. Automation and modernization could put a huge number of people out of business and unemployed. Would that be good for China? Would that be good for the workers who just lost their jobs? Like everything economic, it boils down to supply and demand. China has a huge supply of workers. If wages went up, automation would cause the supply to increase even further, and wages would have to drop to create equilibrium. I guess they could get unions and artificially drive up prices to a point where firms would look elsewhere for production. Would that help them? It's taken awhile, but this is what has happened to US carmakers.
^ Do they HAVE to be treated like slaves, too?

The stuff that goes on there would never be openly tolerated in North America.
Is it ok because it's 'just them'?

The higher the standards we strive for, the better for everyone.

Alien
04-27-2009, 03:23 AM
Anyway, has anybody actually reviews a comparisonbetween a fake and a true stick ?

lets forget about economic and politics here. The fact is, chinese workers acceptwhat they take because they canlive better that way, it is offer and demand, and they are not slaves. But not our matter, it is up to them and our decision to buy ot not.

So,appart from same specs, how do they play ?

Eiffel59
04-27-2009, 03:47 AM
Just tried a fake MG Rad MP...aesthetically very well done BUT...removing the buttcap reveals his almost 100% fiberglass composition..has a ridicolous RDC flex of 42...weighs some 330 grs strung with some very cheap 15ga. syn @45lbs...and shoots rockets everywhere but RARELY in-court :P

Bought by a friend on the Evil Bay, paid 50USD plus shipping (10bucks) the only remarkable thing is the cover (probably more expensive than the whole stick ;) )

BTW the string literally exploded in the middle after 3 hours of training...

sureshs
04-27-2009, 07:29 AM
lets forget about economic and politics here. The fact is, chinese workers acceptwhat they take because they canlive better that way, it is offer and demand, and they are not slaves.

Some are, some are not. Read an article about prison labor used to manufacture umbrellas - 18 minutes per umbrella, 15 hours a day, and physical abuse if not completed.

Is it true? I don't know. It is from a weekly magazine published by overseas Chinese who are opposed to the government. They could have their own agenda as well.

Danstevens
04-27-2009, 08:16 AM
Just tried a fake MG Rad MP...aesthetically very well done BUT...removing the buttcap reveals his almost 100% fiberglass composition..has a ridicolous RDC flex of 42...weighs some 330 grs strung with some very cheap 15ga. syn @45lbs...and shoots rockets everywhere but RARELY in-court :P

Bought by a friend on the Evil Bay, paid 50USD plus shipping (10bucks) the only remarkable thing is the cover (probably more expensive than the whole stick ;) )

BTW the string literally exploded in the middle after 3 hours of training...

That's not as surprising as you may first think. Fakes have no reason to have quality control measures so you never know what you could be getting. It also tends to be that the paint job isn't too bad but underneath, the racket is much worse than the real thing.

I would take the "There's nothing we can do" from Babolat with a pinch of salt as I'm almost certain Yonex took legal action against some sellers/producers of fake badminton rackets.

James L
04-27-2009, 08:22 AM
wow, prince rackets are copied too...
someone said that prince rackets are difficult to copy because of their o ports...

i wonder how these fakes play compared to real ones...

ripperfranky
04-27-2009, 11:08 AM
^ Do they HAVE to be treated like slaves, too?

The stuff that goes on there would never be openly tolerated in North America.
Is it ok because it's 'just them'?

The higher the standards we strive for, the better for everyone.

Well, they don't have to be treated like this, but they have no choice at all. I'd like to invite you here in China to see the real picture. The turth is that 10 times more income for those who are working in the factory than those in the farm. Also, the term "slaves" only fits part of the situation

ripperfranky
04-27-2009, 11:13 AM
Then why is it that India is crying foul about Obama's perceived protectionist policies? They want more free trade with the US, not less. Other way too - if China and India were not buying my employer's products, I would be out of work this moment in the current economy. Globalization holds up the economy in one place if the other goes under, and vice versa. Why is this any different from a company in LA wanting to expand it's business to Arizona?

Along with free trade comes cultural and political ideas, as it has throughout history. Free trade is very old. Ships were plying goods and people even BC. That is how science, culture and ideas spread. A closed country becomes prone to dictatorship and tyranny.

Off the tennis topic, but I wanna say that the relationship is clear - China purchases the US Bond, then the US uses the money raised by the Bond to purchases "Made in China"

Alien
04-27-2009, 11:23 AM
Some are, some are not. Read an article about prison labor used to manufacture umbrellas - 18 minutes per umbrella, 15 hours a day, and physical abuse if not completed.

Is it true? I don't know. It is from a weekly magazine published by overseas Chinese who are opposed to the government. They could have their own agenda as well.


Forget it. I live in a Third World country and lets say your standards of labour conditions dont apply here, it is a different reality and people accept them culturally or voluntarily or because otherwise they die of hunger. Almost everything you consume is produced elsewhere with certainly cheaper labour costs than in the USA, and you are happy to buy cheap. So really no reason for your concern for other countries working conditions, everybody does what they can to live better.

ollinger
04-27-2009, 02:45 PM
Good to see the post from Alien because I'm always appalled when people advocate boycotting goods from countries where they feel workers are underpaid. It does those workers no good at all to apply your own standards of what you think working conditions should be. Conditions improve over time for entirely different reasons, fueled by shared information and increased options as a nation's economy improves.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 09:30 PM
Good to see the post from Alien because I'm always appalled when people advocate boycotting goods from countries where they feel workers are underpaid. It does those workers no good at all to apply your own standards of what you think working conditions should be. Conditions improve over time for entirely different reasons, fueled by shared information and increased options as a nation's economy improves.
^ BS. (not unusual for your posts)
How dare you state that we should not apply 'our' standards when it comes to things like suffering and compassion; that we should accept a much lower standard with a comfortable "ho... hum...".
Would you accept those working conditions if it was YOUR son or daughter or sister or brother there?
It's so much easier for you to say that we should 'leave them alone' from your nice comfortable living room over here, when the people overseas are just 'those people'... comfortably distant...

It's easy to say that the workers over there "accept it". But that is only because they have very little choice. And they have very little choice because the absolute greed of the Western world demands that things remain that way for them.

Human compassion dictates that we not contribute to nor tolerate the suffering of others.
Try joining the decent part of the human race for a change, ollinger.

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 09:34 PM
Yes, ollinger. Be human, don't buy their products so that they starve. That way, they'll be dead on their farm but at least you feel smug that you didn't buy their products.

Seriously, ollinger is correct. Is it inhuman to expect people to work 6 days a week? That would be frowned upon in this country but it is routine in India. Traditionally people get half of Saturday and all of Sunday off. That is the way it is for pretty much all legitimate factories. The only people that are hurt when you boycott products is the very people you are trying to help.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Yes, ollinger. Be human, don't buy their products so that they starve. That way, they'll be dead on their farm but at least you feel smug that you didn't buy their products.

Seriously, ollinger is correct. Is it inhuman to expect people to work 6 days a week? That would be frowned upon in this country but it is routine in India. Traditionally people get half of Saturday and all of Sunday off. That is the way it is for pretty much all legitimate factories. The only people that are hurt when you boycott products is the very people you are trying to help.
^ Again - more BS.
Nice of you to twist things around and totally ignore the culpability inherent in continuing to selfishly buy their products (most of which you don't need).

Buying their products ensures the unacceptable status quo - or, often, even worse.

Again - you wouldn't accept your loved ones working under those conditions... but it's so very easy of you hypocrites to advocate low standards for others and say that it's fine for these people because you have no emotional connection to them.
And by buying and buying, you also get all the 'stuff' you want.

How bloody convenient.

James L
04-27-2009, 09:50 PM
I'm just curious, how does buying their products ensures the unacceptable status quo?

Instead of boycotting, how about selling all your possessions and donating it to them?

Deuce
04-27-2009, 09:52 PM
You honestly don't see how buying the products ensures that their working conditions won't improve (and may even deteriorate)?

Honestly?

Do you understand how continuing to buy a poor quality product helps to ensure that the quality of the product will not improve?

James L
04-27-2009, 10:16 PM
I was just curious.
And, no I do not see how buying the products ensures their poor working conditions. If I did, I wouldn't have asked.

Are you talking about poor working conditions or poor quality products?

You seem to be confused.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 10:23 PM
If I seem confused, then you're in another orbit altogether.
I was simply trying to give you an ANALogy, in order to help you understand.

But I see it's of no use.

Fine.
We've established that you are incapable of comprehending the obvious.
Move along, then...

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 10:25 PM
^ Again - more BS.
Nice of you to twist things around and totally ignore the culpability inherent in continuing to selfishly buy their products (most of which you don't need).

Buying their products ensures the unacceptable status quo - or, often, even worse.

Again - you wouldn't accept your loved ones working under those conditions... but it's so very easy of you hypocrites to advocate low standards for others and say that it's fine for these people because you have no emotional connection to them.
And by buying and buying, you also get all the 'stuff' you want.

How bloody convenient.

My loved ones also work 6 days a week in India. My inlaws have a ceramic workshop where they run kilns(and work alongside their employees) that run day in and day out even in 100 degree weather. Should I tell people not to buy their products because their working conditions aren't up to your standard? You have no concept of what is "low standards" because it changes according to customs and cultures. It is typical of these type of do-gooders of the "You should listen to me, I konw best" types that end up hurting the very people they are trying to help.

The people who work in those racket factories are free to quit and go back to the farm and starve if there is a bad year. The fact that these factories(in the large cities--so no farmland is taken away from some rural farmer as someone has suggested in this thread) can get a ready supply of labor indicates that the people that work there see it as a step up from what they have now.

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 10:28 PM
If I seem confused, then you're in another orbit altogether.
I was simply trying to give you an ANALogy, in order to help you understand.

But I see it's of no use.

Fine.
We've established that you are incapable of comprehending the obvious.
Move along, then...

Instead of insulting him, why don't you answer his question, mainly: how does buying their product ensure that the worker's conditon will not improve. If that is the case, then tell me how not buying the product will improve the lives of those working in that factory?

Deuce
04-27-2009, 10:34 PM
My loved ones also work 6 days a week in India. My inlaws have a ceramic workshop where they run kilns(and work alongside their employees) that run day in and day out even in 100 degree weather. Should I tell people not to buy their products because their working conditions aren't up to your standard? You have no concept of what is "low standards" because it changes according to customs and cultures. It is typical of these type of foolish do-gooders of the "You primitives should listen to me, I konw best" types that end up hurting the very people they are trying to help.
^ Suffering is not unique to a culture. Suffering is suffering, no matter where in the world.
Working conditions in which people are treated poorly to the point of suffering - because the country's laws permit it - need to be addressed. And it is certainly not by selfishly claiming innocence and continuing to encourage these conditions by buying the products that one helps.

The people who work in those racket factories are free to quit and go back to the farm and starve if there is a bad year. The fact that these factories(in the large cities--so no farmland is taken away from some rural farmer as someone has suggested in this thread) can get a ready supply of labor indicates that the people that work there see it as a step up from what they have now.
^ It is an absolute fool's agrument to compare something to something even worse, and then claim "see - it's not so bad".
Only fools - and 10 year olds - argue this way. Really.

It is always better to compare a thing to something BETTER, not worse; to seek to IMPROVE poor situations, rather than seek to justify them by comparing them to something even worse, so that fools will believe that you might be right.

Instead of insulting him, why don't you answer his question, mainly: how does buying their product ensure that the worker's conditon will not improve. If that is the case, then tell me how not buying the product will improve the lives of those working in that factory?
^ I explained it fully in my analogy.
If neither of you comprehend it (in your case, voluntarily), don't blame your deficiency on me.

You've shown a very limited understanding of human compassion in other aspects of this message board - and it continues.
If people had attitudes like yours, slavery would still very much exist in the USA. And it would be flourishing.

You're not to be taken seriously.

James L
04-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Deuce,
I'm not trying to argue with you. I just wanted to see your view on why you think buying their products would ensure their poor working conditions.

However, I don't know if I want to continue this conversation, because not only have you put me down for no obvious reason, but though you speak of human compassion, you can't even have compassion on a fellow member on this board.

"You are not to be taken seriously" - Deuce

I think it's people like you in China that puts workers in horrible horrible conditions because they don't take them seriously.

I'm really sorry, but you're a hypocrite.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 10:54 PM
^ Seems that I assessed you very accurately.

James L
04-27-2009, 11:02 PM
If you're cold-hearted to people around you, do you really think you'll be compassionate to someone on the other side of the world?

Not only are you cold-hearted, but you're quick to judge.

You're not promoting better working conditions in China, you're promoting your selfish agenda.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 11:10 PM
^ And you call ME a hypocrite?

You sound like a typical know-it-all college student who isn't nearly as intelligent as you think you are.
But you don't know that yet.

As I said - you keep demonstrating that my initial assessment of you was accurate.
And - again - blaming others for your own deficiencies won't get you far.

Move along to a thread that you actually understand...

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 11:12 PM
^ Suffering is not unique to a culture. Suffering is suffering, no matter where in the world.
Working conditions in which people are treated poorly to the point of suffering - because the country's laws permit it - need to be addressed. And it is certainly not by selfishly claiming innocence and continuing to encourage these conditions by buying the products that one helps.

Nice vague generalities. Now tell me how not buying my in-laws ceramic products would help improve working conditions in their factory.

It is an absolute fool's agrument to compare something to something even worse, and then claim "see - it's not so bad".
Only fools - and 10 year olds - argue this way. Really.
:lol: All wise and all knowing, can you please explain to me how not buying a product from a business helps the average worker in that particular business.

It is always better to compare a thing to something BETTER, not worse; to seek to IMPROVE poor situations, rather than seek to justify them by comparing them to something even worse, so that fools will believe that you might be right.

So much verbal diarrhea, so little actually answering a simple question.


^ I explained it fully in my analogy.
If neither of you comprehend it (in your case, voluntarily), don't blame your deficiency on me.
For those not as all-knowing as you, explain again how boycotting Babolat rackets helps the working condition of a worker in the Chinese Babolat factory?

You've shown a very limited understanding of human compassion in other aspects of this message board - and it continues.
If people had attitudes like yours, slavery would still very much exist in the USA. And it would be flourishing.

You're not to be taken seriously.

Instead of insulting others, why don't you answer my question. How does not buying a product made in that factory help the worker there?

Your slave analogy is wrong and shows your lack of comprehension. Slaves didn't apply to be slaves. The workers in the racket factories can walk away from that job(and go back and starve on their farm--but for some those people don't realize that they should go back and starve so pompous do-gooders can feel good about themselves).

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 11:13 PM
You're not promoting better working conditions in China, you're promoting your selfish agenda.

All Socialism-All-the-time. :lol:

plasma
04-27-2009, 11:25 PM
I had so many things to say about copyright laws in Asia. Then I check into this provocative and intelligent thread only to find it Deuced. I believe that Deuce is a lonely genius, cursed by bad feng shui. Bitterness and conflict seem to follow him. Resinated stains of venom and contempt can be seen on his lonely bong....you can read his biography: Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man...a sad, lonely, brilliant, dejected sort...I love you Deuce, I pray that intense,annoying, intelligent folk like you are accepted in this world of idiots, scammers, liars and theives.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 11:26 PM
All Socialism-All-the-time.
^ This, also, demonstrates your very narrow 'thinking' scope and ignorance.


Instead of insulting others, why don't you answer my question. Simply because you are not asking the question honestly, but rather manipulatively and dishonestly.
You're not interested in an honest answer, nor will you accept an honest answer. That is quite obvious.

In any case, the answer is self-evident - just as it was in other situations in which various forms of objection of human conditions brought about change.


Your slave analogy is wrong and shows your lack of comprehension. Slaves didn't apply to be slaves. The workers in the racket factories can walk away from that job(and go back and starve on their farm--but for some those people don't realize that they should go back and starve so pompous do-gooders can feel good about themselves).
^ This is a typical example of your utter manipulation - and why I won't feed into it by answering your stupid question.

The slave analogy is extremely relevant.
In both circumstances, one class of humans is abusing another class, while the majority look on, claiming innocence, and doing nothing.
In slavery, only when people began objecting to the abuse was change brought. Not by tolerance, but by objection.
Acceptance does not change a circumstance - objection can.

The workers in the racquet factories can walk away you say. To what?
This again shows not only your utter lack of humanity, but your complete lack of understanding of basic things.
It's like saying that the prostitute can just walk away from being a prostitute. All you see is the mere surface of things - nothing more.
Then you argue like you think you know something.
Odd...

fps
04-27-2009, 11:32 PM
Nice vague generalities. Now tell me how not buying my in-laws ceramic products would help improve working conditions in their factory.


:lol: All wise and all knowing, can you please explain to me how not buying a product from a business helps the average worker in that particular business.



So much verbal diarrhea, so little actually answering a simple question.



For those not as all-knowing as you, explain again how boycotting Babolat rackets helps the working condition of a worker in the Chinese Babolat factory?



Instead of insulting others, why don't you answer my question. How does not buying a product made in that factory help the worker there?

Your slave analogy is wrong and shows your lack of comprehension. Slaves didn't apply to be slaves. The workers in the racket factories can walk away from that job(and go back and starve on their farm--but for some those people don't realize that they should go back and starve so pompous do-gooders can feel good about themselves).

I would like to hear the answers to these too and and agree that a slave analogy is totally wrong. Deuce, you seem to think these people can walk away from these factory jobs, which are some of the most profitable they can get, if the factory goes bust, and do something else. these people in China have chosen these jobs because they have to work every day in order to scrape together a living and this is their way of doing so. as an educated guy from britain i cannot imagine that being my choice, but i know i wouldn't be happy if i was told that for my own sake others were going to boycott products from the factory that produced my best possible wages *for my own good*. what exactly would you like these people to do instead? how would your solution make their lives better?

you sound as if you swallowed a few articles and don't know where to go next. your lack of a hint of compassion in putting forward the merits of your argument is astonishing, and your arrogance towards your fellow posters when your argument is challenged, and reluctance to answer their valid questions and hide behind retorts, show you in a bad light.

Deuce
04-27-2009, 11:40 PM
You people are truly incredible.

You keep acting - and it MUST be an act - that to have these people do these jobs, get paid a fair wage, and be treated humanely is not in any way possible... that there is absolutely no better alternative to the status quo.
People viewed slavery the same way in the USA for many years...
Until people realized that there was an alternative, and worked toward obtaining it by no longer accepting the status quo.

What terribly low standards you people have. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
As I said - if everyone in the USA had that same attitude, slavery would still be alive and well in the USA.

Again - why should you care - you're getting your stuff cheaper this way, if things continue like this.
It's actually in your best financial interests to encourage the status quo; to not care that these people are being abused; and - incredibly - to actually justify it.
They - and the abusive conditions under which they work - are half a world away - out of sight and out of mind.
How very convenient.

Amazing selfishness... truly amazing...

Bhagi Katbamna
04-27-2009, 11:43 PM
^The slave analogy is extremely relevant.
In both circumstances, one class of humans is abusing another class, while the majority look on, claiming innocence, and doing nothing.
In slavery, only when people began objecting to the abuse was change brought. Not by tolerance, but by objection.
Acceptance does not change a circumstance - objection can.

Great. You object. Now how is that going to help that worker in the Babolat factory eat tomorrow? I am not asking for some vague generalities. Explain to me simply how that worker is going to eat next month?

The workers in the racquet factories can walk away you say. To what?
Back to their farms. At least when they starve you can smugly feel good about yourself not contributing to perpetuate their poor working conditions.
This again shows not only your utter lack of humanity, but your complete lack of understanding of basic things.
It's like saying that the prostitute can just walk away from being a prostitute. All you see is the mere surface of things - nothing more.
Then you argue like you think you know something.
Odd...

I defer to you on knowledge about prostitutes.

If a worker cannot get money for something to eat tomorrow, theories and deep knowledge do him little good. Since you claim to have a deep knowledge about things(everything based on your smugness) tell someone like me who has a "surface" knowledge about this subject how people boycotting Babolat rackets because they are made in China helps a worker in a Chinese Babolat factory? Should be easy to explain for someone with your self-professed deep knowledge of the subject. And this time, do it without the insults, for people that are intelligent don't need to tell everyone how much they know, they just show it.

David_Is_Right
04-27-2009, 11:46 PM
Nice job, guys. You derailed the first genuinely interesting tennis thread on TT in god knows how long. Congratulations.

Why not take your discussion over to Rants & Raves, where we discuss this sort of thing? We can then concentrate on the issue at hand, which was fake racquets and "grey imports".

Deuce
04-27-2009, 11:50 PM
^ This thread had been dead for quite a while.

There is no point to take it elsewhere.
The subject of working conditions in some Asian countries has been discussed several times on this board - and every time, it is very repetitive - people simply resume the same positions they previously argued...

sureshs
04-28-2009, 07:25 AM
Good to see the post from Alien because I'm always appalled when people advocate boycotting goods from countries where they feel workers are underpaid. It does those workers no good at all to apply your own standards of what you think working conditions should be. Conditions improve over time for entirely different reasons, fueled by shared information and increased options as a nation's economy improves.

He probably didn't remember my previous post when I was actually defending the lower wages and working conditions. My last post was only about prison labor and I myself don't know if it is propoganda or not. He seems to think I was disagreeing with him.

sureshs
04-28-2009, 07:36 AM
Why don't you guys realize that there are 2 sides to this issue? There is so much info out there on ethical sourcing of products. Like buying coffee from South America ensuring fair trade to the workers and a fair deal for the environment. There is a compromise possible, and it is being done every day, even by huge multinational companies.

Bhagi Katbamna
04-28-2009, 08:35 AM
Why don't you guys realize that there are 2 sides to this issue? There is so much info out there on ethical sourcing of products. Like buying coffee from South America ensuring fair trade to the workers and a fair deal for the environment. There is a compromise possible, and it is being done every day, even by huge multinational companies.

I agree with this. But what allows companies to improve working conditions and let employees share in the success is profit. The more revenue a company brings in, the better it is for the workers.

Nice job, guys. You derailed the first genuinely interesting tennis thread on TT in god knows how long. Congratulations.


The discussion on couterfeit rackets is much more simple than 3rd world labor practices. If you knowingly buy counterfeit rackets, you are engaging in the theft of intellectual property. The original manufacturer takes the risk of developing rackets, building a customer base, the cost of building factories, the cost of marketing etc... and someone else steals that and the buyer is encouraging that theft.

plasma
04-28-2009, 10:02 AM
deuce and Baggy kat both have valid arguments. Deuces point about global equality irrelevant of current socioeconomic conditions and his slavery metaphor is brilliant thinking, very eye opening.
Baggy Kat's counter with the facts about slavery being the best possible option (when the only other options are double and triple slavery and an even earlier death) is valid and eye opening as well.
The real question is how do we move forward to help these people. The answer is by bringing awareness to the lack of civil liberties and true conditions in these places. I thank both of you gentleman for educating my very soul. Slavery is alive and well, education and awareness can stop it...

Bhagi Katbamna
04-28-2009, 11:02 AM
deuce and Baggy kat both have valid arguments. Deuces point about global equality irrelevant of current socioeconomic conditions and his slavery metaphor is brilliant thinking, very eye opening.
Baggy Kat's counter with the facts about slavery being the best possible option (when the only other options are double and triple slavery and an even earlier death) is valid and eye opening as well.
The real question is how do we move forward to help these people. The answer is by bringing awareness to the lack of civil liberties and true conditions in these places. I thank both of you gentleman for educating my very soul. Slavery is alive and well, education and awareness can stop it...

The place that slavery is very prevalent is the Mid East. The Mid-East countries import a lot of laboreres from 3rd world countries and treat them like property.

The person working in a Chinese racket factory isn't a slave. And I never posted that "slavery being the best possible option." For someone working in a Chinese factory, despite what we might think are low wages(when we compare them to someone working in the US or the EU), the wages that they earn there are much better than what they would be earning if there was no factory there.

sureshs
04-28-2009, 12:12 PM
The place that slavery is very prevalent is the Mid East. The Mid-East countries import a lot of laboreres from 3rd world countries and treat them like property.


Well, thousands of people from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, who would have been starving otherwise, have made tons of money working in the Middle East. Some continue to live there, others get out with the money. I personally know a lot of people who were there, and though they were not happy with the treatment of workers, not all of them fall into the category you describe. There have been cases of sexual exploitation of nurses and locking up of people, but still thousands of people try to go there even today because life is wretched where they are. It is a complex relationship and should not be dismissed as slavery.

sureshs
04-28-2009, 12:16 PM
The discussion on couterfeit rackets is much more simple than 3rd world labor practices. If you knowingly buy counterfeit rackets, you are engaging in the theft of intellectual property. The original manufacturer takes the risk of developing rackets, building a customer base, the cost of building factories, the cost of marketing etc... and someone else steals that and the buyer is encouraging that theft.

In LA's fashion district, thousands of mothers buy "Gucci" handbags every day for themselves and their daughters. They even vanpool from all over and coordinate their trips. They are all thieves?

fps
04-28-2009, 12:31 PM
Deuce stop tarring anyone who disagrees with you with your broad broad brush. No-one is doing anything either selfish or heroic by posting their opinions on a message board.

paulfreda
10-26-2009, 12:25 AM
Well against my better judgement to not enter this thread ...... I should have to say I agree with Baghi from my direct experience.

I live in Thailand and my Thai wife's sister works in a Western factory.
She works 6-7 days a week [7th of her choosing to get more money for her family] 12 hours a day.
And her pay is about $2-300/month. Sounds horrible, right ?
But her only other options are to sell food from a cart all day or sell her body like so many others do because it pays 5x to 10x more.
Should Westerners boycott her company ? I hope not.
Does she have to stay there ? No, she is not a slave. But its her best option.

The do gooders who are apalled at this situation think they can change world history with their feelings and loud protests. But if there is blame to be assigned, it is Asian history, the Thai Govt, and the authoritarian culture here. And no Westerner is going to change it.

Deuce is naive in thinking that Westerners are exploiting Asians here. What do you think is the best thing one country can do for a 3rd world emerging country ? Answer; it is investing there. Bringing in capital which is what creates jobs and thus dearly needed cash flow. And isn't that exactly what these Western factories are doing ? From this start, the culture can build from there. When they get their own engineers, these fake factories will become formidible competition for Wilson, Head and the rest of the industry.

Families slowly rise in socioeconomic level from generation to generation thru education and experience. So too cultures will evolve based on their values and those values are not the same as those of the West. And the changes they make come slowly, not overnight. You can not educate and build infrastructure with desire alone. It takes time. In the meantime, people must feed their families, something we take for granted as not a problem due to our blessings of economic and political freedom and technology.

By the way, the situation in Asia was explained in astonishing clarity by Mortimer Adler many years ago. He said the difference between The East and The West was that the East never separated philosophy from religion. Western development of freedom and technology both came about from secular ideas not associated with religion. The East never allowed thought independent of religion and it shows in the standard of living here.