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View Full Version : Clijsters is back and the WS cakewalk in OVER!!!


GameSampras
03-26-2009, 03:28 PM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."

mentalcase
03-26-2009, 04:08 PM
lol
I think she will last a year on tour then retire cause she misses her family.

TheTruth
03-26-2009, 05:23 PM
Kim was never that strong in the mental department. I don't see her being a threat to the Williams Sisters at all. Even part time.

Do you know their head to heads? I tried to get it off the WTA site, but it wouldn't work.

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Serena leads 7-1
Venus leads 6-4

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 05:27 PM
I have to agree i dont think they were really never big threats to the sisters. If she was, how come she didnt meet them in the semis or the earlier of 2007 Wimbledon and Australian open?

edmondsm
03-26-2009, 05:29 PM
Clijsters wasn't a challenge for the WS when she was around before. I don't see how she's going to challenge them after being off the tour for however long. Wake me up when Henin comes back.

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 05:31 PM
^^ agreeed. Serena hasn't played clijsters since 2003 and Venus hasn't played her since 2005.

TheTruth
03-26-2009, 05:34 PM
Serena leads 7-1
Venus leads 6-4

Thanks!......

S H O W S T O P P E R !
03-26-2009, 05:39 PM
What rank will she come back as?

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 06:05 PM
Clijsters wasn't a challenge for the WS when she was around before. I don't see how she's going to challenge them after being off the tour for however long. Wake me up when Henin comes back.

She hardly played them since 2003 (and I think Venus lost to Kim both times they played in 2005) and they are so much worse than they were then. If she can get back to her old form she would do much better vs them than she did in 2002-2003 when they were at their peak. They are not even close to that now.

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 06:09 PM
She hardly played them since 2003 (and I think Venus lost to Kim both times they played in 2005) and they are so much worse than they were then. If she can get back to her old form she would do much better vs them than she did in 2002-2003 when they were at their peak. They are not even close to that now.

May i ask what made you think they are worse than then? 2005 was a horrible year for both the sisters. They just came back from injuries. Serena played the Australian and got injured and came back in time for the USO. Venus was ranked pretty low and she was rusty. How she was rusty against davenport in the finals and Sharapova in the semis? They play soo much better now than then.

+ 2005 was when kim was in her prime. and she managed to win only 2005 uso. That versus, the William sister rusty and still being able to clinch the title in 2005?

split-step
03-26-2009, 06:12 PM
Kim may push Serena but Serena will almost always win that matchup.

With Venus, she could probably reverse their head to head but Kim would have to be playing at her 'summer of 2005' level (her best season)

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 06:14 PM
May i ask what made you think they are worse than then? 2005 was a horrible year for both the sisters. They just came back from injuries. Serena played the Australian and got injured and came back in time for the USO. Venus was ranked pretty low and she was rusty. How she was rusty against davenport in the finals and Sharapova in the semis? They play soo much better now than then.

I didnt say they were worse than 2005, I said they were alot worse than 2002-2003 which is the last time they were beating Kim regularly (as I said they hardly played since then AFAIK except Kim beating Venus twice in 2005). Venus is about the same now as 2005, awesome at Wimbledon, pretty good at the U.S Open and a few other events, non existant elsewhere. Serena yes i better than 2005 but she didnt play Kim that year anyway.

Serena is way of of shape now and wouldnt be winning as much as she does not without such a weak field, and without so many players choking leads away vs her. Henin proved Serena's vurnerability to good competition in her current shape in 2007 when she beat Serena in all 3 slams she played in on 3 different surfaces. Kim is not as great a player as Justine, but she is still better than whats left for an out of shape Serena to face with Justine gone. If Kuznetsova would have beaten Serena without choking, and Azarenka probably would have beaten her without getting kill, than Kim definitely has a shot to beat her often now in her 2003-2005 form.

As for Venus, Venus only cares about Wimbledon and a few random other tournaments now. On slow surfaces she does squat now so it is almost as if she isnt there, so at the very least she presents no obstacle there at this point, and Wimbledon is the last slam Kim would ever win anyway.

egn
03-26-2009, 06:15 PM
Serena and Venus from 05-06 were so off form and involved in the media. Venus now might not be playing so much better but Serena is definitely playing a lot better she has been to the past 3 slam finals. Kim was never a threat to Serena, Henin was Serena's threat and Henin was never a threat to Venus Cljisters was slightly. So really both need to come back to make the field decent but I doubt that this will cause any stir amongst the top of the rankings. Clijsters has to actually get into top form..I think she can do it but I don't see her winning tons of slams she might steal 1 or 2 but overall I think she will be added to the list of people Serena Williams beats in slams.

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 06:20 PM
Kim was never a threat to Serena

Kim was not a major threat to Serena in 2003 when Serena was at her peak. It does not matter how Serena compares to 2005-2006 where she never played Kim and had far worse results than Kim overall anyway, what matters is she is way below what she was in 2002-2003. Venus was 1-2 vs Kim in 2005, but Venus is only about the same as 2005. Yes Serena is better but that doesnt matter, what matters is how she compares to 2002-2003 as far as any barometer of playing Kim.

Even here you are not totally correct as Kim beat Serena in the year end Championships final in 2002 and choked a huge lead vs her in the Australian Open semis. Maybe with some time of the tour for perspective her choking tendencies might not be as prominent as they were.

Henin was never a threat to Venus

Venus has played only ONE match vs Justine since Justine won her first slam title in June 2003, and Venus lost that one and only match in straight sets. Again there is nothing to base this on as it was a prime Venus regularly beating a pre-prime Justine. Had Venus not always lost before meeting Justine, Justine probably would have won almost all their meetings since then as Justine was now the one in her prime unlike before, and Venus no longer in hers.

You really are in love with the Williams sisters arent you.

Lionheart392
03-26-2009, 06:27 PM
While I much prefer Venus over Henin, their H2H is definitely very misleading as grafselesfan pointed out. Almost all their matches were played during Venus's prime and before Henin's, except their last match which Henin won.
And I'm very excited to see how Clijsters will perform during her comeback, but I don't think we should expect too much until we see her play. Actually in May I'm going to see her play at Wimbledon to celebrate the new roof, so it'll be interesting to watch her. If she is still in good form then I hope she goes easy on Steffi :D

MagPro
03-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Keep dreaming haters!!!

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 06:40 PM
I didnt say they were worse than 2005, I said they were alot worse than 2002-2003 which is the last time they were beating Kim regularly (as I said they hardly played since then AFAIK except Kim beating Venus twice in 2005). Venus is about the same now as 2005, awesome at Wimbledon, pretty good at the U.S Open and a few other events, non existant elsewhere. Serena yes i better than 2005 but she didnt play Kim that year anyway.

Serena is way of of shape now and wouldnt be winning as much as she does not without such a weak field, and without so many players choking leads away vs her. Henin proved Serena's vurnerability to good competition in her current shape in 2007 when she beat Serena in all 3 slams she played in on 3 different surfaces. Kim is not as great a player as Justine, but she is still better than whats left for an out of shape Serena to face with Justine gone. If Kuznetsova would have beaten Serena without choking, and Azarenka probably would have beaten her without getting kill, than Kim definitely has a shot to beat her often now in her 2003-2005 form.

As for Venus, Venus only cares about Wimbledon and a few random other tournaments now. On slow surfaces she does squat now so it is almost as if she isnt there, so at the very least she presents no obstacle there at this point, and Wimbledon is the last slam Kim would ever win anyway.

Uh if you haven't noticed after 2005 Clijsters was no good. Serena just came back on the tour after a injury of ofcourse she wasnt fit. The same can be said for Henin. Henin lost in all grandslams but the french in 2006. But the following year she won 2 gs. Serena came in 2007 won the AO but lost everything else. She came in 2008 and made the finals of wimbledon and won USO. But this is where the difference is. She didn't plummet in 2009 after coming from a great season in 2008. Where as, Henin just crashed into a nose dive in 2008 after having the best season of her life. And about the Clijsters chances of getting back to the 2003-2005 level is never going to happen. She just had a child. A woman's body just changes after having a child. Horomonally, mentally, and such. It'll take alot more time for her to actually get to the 2003-2005 state. But by the time she gets to that state shes probably like 29.

kungfusmkim
03-26-2009, 06:42 PM
While I much prefer Venus over Henin, their H2H is definitely very misleading as grafselesfan pointed out. Almost all their matches were played during Venus's prime and before Henin's, except their last match which Henin won.
And I'm very excited to see how Clijsters will perform during her comeback, but I don't think we should expect too much until we see her play. Actually in May I'm going to see her play at Wimbledon to celebrate the new roof, so it'll be interesting to watch her. If she is still in good form then I hope she goes easy on Steffi :D

Yeah but the matches that henin won in 2007 was during her prime.

Tennis360
03-26-2009, 08:46 PM
Glad she'll be back....I hope Henin comes out of retirement too - I miss her game...

CEvertFan
03-26-2009, 08:58 PM
I had a feeling Kim would be back - watch Henin follow suit after HER mental break is over with.

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 09:03 PM
I had a feeling Kim would be back - watch Henin follow suit after HER mental break is over with.

One can only hope.

boredone3456
03-26-2009, 09:15 PM
I wouldn't say the cakewalk is over at this point. Clijsters was not ever a huge threat on grass and that won't be any different now. As for the whole Clijsters/Serena thing its impossible to really tell what will happen now. All of their previous matches occured during Serena's peak level of Fitness and ability, and while Clijsters was several times able to push Serena to 3 she was never able to close it out...most notably blowing a 5-1 lead in 3rd set of the 2003 Australian Open Semi's, which I would consider one of the worst if not the worst choke of her career.

Now its hard to say but, at least now I would give the advantage to Serena, maybe if Clijsters really shows she wants to do the tour regularly again the balance might shift in her favor, but I doubt we'll see it happening as soon as she starts playing again.

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 09:19 PM
Well one surface Kim could dominate in her old form on is clay, which the Williams arent big forces on anymore anyway. Hard courts would be more interesting to see. I agree the Williams are superior on grass but I dont agree Kim wasnt a threat there. She did make the semis twice after all.

LOOSeDAWG
03-26-2009, 09:23 PM
Venus Williams is better than Clijsters but I think Clijsters matches up very well with Serena and could beat her, but there will be Slams whereby the Williams Sisters are upset and Clijsters will be able to take care of the remaining challengers, certainly take care of Jankovic.

grafselesfan
03-26-2009, 09:35 PM
Venus Williams is better than Clijsters but I think Clijsters matches up very well with Serena and could beat her, but there will be Slams whereby the Williams Sisters are upset and Clijsters will be able to take care of the remaining challengers, certainly take care of Jankovic.

Venus at this point is absolutely zero factor at either the Australian Open or French Open, so if Kim gets back to being a major contender she doesnt even have to think about her at either of those events. Serena is so out of shape and moving so poorly that it would help Kim a great deal to beat her. If much weaker players than Kim like Kuznetsova and Azarenka are having such great chances to beat Serena, than Kim definitely will.

LOOSeDAWG
03-26-2009, 09:56 PM
Clijsters would beat Serena but not Venus, Venus covers the court better than Clijsters whereas Serena would be run off the court.

The-Champ
03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."



if the part-time sisters decide to dedicate themselves 100%...they will probably destroy the field including clijsters.

It's good though that kim is back...maybe she misses lleyton.

The-Champ
03-27-2009, 12:57 AM
If Clijsters starts winning slams, there's a probability that Justine might do a comeback as well. There can only be ONE belgian!

navratilovafan
03-27-2009, 01:10 AM
if the part-time sisters decide to dedicate themselves 100%...

and what reason do you have to believe this will happen when it hasnt for many years now.

Leublu tennis
03-27-2009, 04:41 AM
What rank will she come back as?Same as when she retired: #1. They hold the rank for retired players.

cknobman
03-27-2009, 05:28 AM
Same as when she retired: #1. They hold the rank for retired players.

your not serious are you?

Warriorroger
03-27-2009, 06:03 AM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."

You use big words for a good player not a great player. I don't like the sisters very much, but they are great players. As for Jelena and Ana, the system is tainted not their place in the rankings.

I hope Steffi can still play great tennis against Kim.

cucio
03-27-2009, 06:26 AM
In fact Steffi looks every day at those racquets hanging at her trophy room, feels the itch in her hand and thinks: "kids are all grown, why the heck not...?"

Puma
03-27-2009, 06:39 AM
This will be interesting to see what happens. I am not confident Clisters will do any damage to the sisters. Like someone said, Clisters is a good player and the sisters are great players. However, I do think if she is in shape and ready to play she can separate the pretenders from the real players.

I am not sure if the part time arrangement of the sisters is a testament to how good the sisters are or how bad the competition is or both. Maybe Clisters can help to aswer this. Besides everyone love to watch her play.

Ian Stewart
03-27-2009, 10:22 AM
This comeback is as nauseating as it is predictable. I give it six months.

Go away Kim. You retired already.

bluetrain4
03-27-2009, 11:43 AM
I think it's great that Clijsters is coming back.

I wonder if this is the "better" way for a female player to have a child AND compete at a top level -- start out on tour fairly young (as most do), have some success, THEN stop and have a child, then return when you are still relatively young.

This is quite a difference from having a baby at the end of your career like Davenport and trying to hang on for a few more years at a top level.

Of course, I'm assuming a lot, including (1) the fact that no one knows when they are going to fall in love and want to have a child. It's not like a player can just say, okay I'm 23, time to have kid so I can be back in a few years. And, (2), there's no guarantee that even though a player is relatively young when they come back, that they can return to their former peak with a child in tow, even if they have the money and personal assistance (relatives, nannies) for the child.

LOOSeDAWG
03-27-2009, 01:07 PM
if the part-time sisters decide to dedicate themselves 100%...they will probably destroy the field including clijsters.

It's good though that kim is back...maybe she misses lleyton.

Venus and Serena have given 100%, they are just smarter than the rest of the world, they know they'd constantly have wrist tendinitis if they played the WTA schedule, and they would have retired young like all the other players of their generation.

tahiti
03-27-2009, 01:14 PM
Venus and Serena have given 100%, they are just smarter than the rest of the world, they know they'd constantly have wrist tendinitis if they played the WTA schedule, and they would have retired young like all the other players of their generation.

I find the Williams sisters indeed smart in the way they pop in and out of the tour, preventing injuries and yet still slaying the rest of the field. Don't think Kim will do the same, mais je dis bonne chance :)

Chi
03-27-2009, 02:19 PM
One can only hope.

...me too! The tennis world misses that backhand... :twisted:

Though its great to hear Kim Clijsters is coming back - good luck to her. It can only be good for the WTA tour in my opinion.

The-Champ
03-27-2009, 02:20 PM
and what reason do you have to believe this will happen when it hasnt for many years now.


that why I said IF. Nowhere have I indicated that they WILL!

The-Champ
03-27-2009, 02:25 PM
Venus and Serena have given 100%, they are just smarter than the rest of the world, they know they'd constantly have wrist tendinitis if they played the WTA schedule, and they would have retired young like all the other players of their generation.



I really think they could've won more. Like Steffi Graf said...the williams' never reached their potential.

LOOSeDAWG
03-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Graf probably doesn't even know they get tendinitis.

egn
03-27-2009, 07:18 PM
what matters is how she compares to 2002-2003 as far as any barometer of playing Kim.


Why should it matter if Serena is playing like 02-03? What makes you think that Serena is going to be affected by Kim now? Kim hasn't played in a long time we don't even know if she is going to be in top form. I don't see Kim doing much damage to Serena anywhere outside of maybe clay.


Venus has played only ONE match vs Justine since Justine won her first slam title in June 2003, and Venus lost that one and only match in straight sets. Again there is nothing to base this on as it was a prime Venus regularly beating a pre-prime Justine. Had Venus not always lost before meeting Justine, Justine probably would have won almost all their meetings since then as Justine was now the one in her prime unlike before, and Venus no longer in hers.


True point, but no offense to Justine in top form against Venus in top form I am giving Venus the edge on hardcourts and grass. I don't think Henin would have regulary beat up on Venus on hardcourts and she would not have been able to do damage on grass. Venus has a lot of talent.

Oh I really do like the Williams Sister I must admit I am a bit bias but I also like Henin a lot too she has some of the best shot making abilities ever. I just wish they would be more dedicated to the sport as it really needs them. Williams, Henin, Cljisters and Sharpova were supposed to be this generation's top and they either get injured, disappear, or retire.

grafselesfan
03-27-2009, 10:49 PM
Why should it matter if Serena is playing like 02-03? What makes you think that Serena is going to be affected by Kim now? Kim hasn't played in a long time we don't even know if she is going to be in top form. I don't see Kim doing much damage to Serena anywhere outside of maybe clay.

It matters since you are basing Kim's chances vs Serena based on how she did vs her in 2002-2003. Serena is not even close to the same player she was in 2002-2003 due to fitness, commitment, weight, and who knows what other issues. Thus if Kim could return to her 2003-2005 form, which is not a certainty of course, she would do much better vs Serena than she did then. Much lesser players than Kim like Kuznetsova and Azarenka are playing Serena in slam matches they really should have beaten her recently, so why on earth wouldnt Kim have a great shot now if she returned to her former form.

Also Kim was only really in her prime 3 of those matches. Basically her prime started at the year end Championships in 2002. In those 3 matches she beat Serena easily in the year end Championships final. Totally should have beaten her in the Australian Open semis and had one of the most colassal chokes of all time. Then Serena's turn to have an easy win in Miami. So based on that prime Kim was not an easy opponent for even the vastly superior to today prime and fit Serena, once Kim reached her prime. That perspective is skewed by so many 2002-earlier matches in their head to head when Kim wasnt the same player yet as 2003-2005 either.

True point, but no offense to Justine in top form against Venus in top form I am giving Venus the edge on hardcourts and grass. I don't think Henin would have regulary beat up on Venus on hardcourts and she would not have been able to do damage on grass. Venus has a lot of talent.

Sorry but from 2004-2007 Justine would have won almost any match between her and Venus except on grass. Justine has simply been the better player ever since the start of 2004 onwards at the very least. The 2007 U.S Open was probably the best non grass court tennis Venus has played since the 2003 Australian Open and it still wasnt enough to even get a set off of Justine. If you are talking about prime Venus vs prime Justine than that might well be different, but Venus's prime has been long over awhile now. Maybe you are referring to your guess if they were in their hypothetical primes together, in which case I could believe your perspective. Otherwise no.

Would you like some examples of when they potentially would have met? The Olympics in 2004 Venus was slated to meet Henin in the quarters but couldnt even get a set off an out of shape past her prime (except for last hurrah 2005 year) Pierce who herself then was easily beaten by Justine next round. Would Venus have ever won that match? Then Australian Open 2006 they were slated to meet in the 4th round. Venus lost to some player I cant even remember the name of, and Justine waltzed to the semis, and gutted her way past Sharapova to the final. Again what reason is there to think Venus would have ever had a shot if they played here. All the examples I can think of when they were in the same part of the draw Venus couldnt even reach Justine since she lost to a much easier opponent than Justine.

I bet if Serena had barely played Justine that whole time too you would also have assumed Serena would have regularly beaten her outside of clay still. However when Justine and Serena played pretty often again in 2007 it was proven that was far from the case, and Serena is better than Venus anywhere except grass as well. Justine from 2004-2007 won over twice as much as anybody else including the sisters, she was by far the best player in the world overall combining those four years.

DMan
03-27-2009, 11:03 PM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."

Hunger for what? Birthing more babies?!

You are kidding yourself if you think Clijsters will make an impression on the WTA elite, or challenge the Williams sisters!

If you think the field is weak now, then what was it like when Clijsters was playing? Capriati practically handed the '01 French Open final, and Kim still found a way to lose. Kim was considered the better player when she reached her 2nd French final in 03 and got clobbered by Justine. She had a cakewalk to the US Open final (no Williams sisters) and was the heavy favorite against Henin. Again Kim choked. Kim won her only major beating..........drum roll please..........Mary Pierce!

Sveta will have company in the major league choke-a-holic department with Kim's return!

thalivest
03-27-2009, 11:26 PM
Hunger for what? Birthing more babies?!

You are kidding yourself if you think Clijsters will make an impression on the WTA elite, or challenge the Williams sisters!

If you think the field is weak now, then what was it like when Clijsters was playing? Capriati practically handed the '01 French Open final, and Kim still found a way to lose. Kim was considered the better player when she reached her 2nd French final in 03 and got clobbered by Justine. She had a cakewalk to the US Open final (no Williams sisters) and was the heavy favorite against Henin. Again Kim choked. Kim won her only major beating..........drum roll please..........Mary Pierce!

Sveta will have company in the major league choke-a-holic department with Kim's return!

Hardly anything you say makes sense. Kim favored over Justine on clay in a French Open final, ROTFL!! Dont even know where to start there. Also based on what is Kim a heavy favorite vs Justine anywhere, even at the U.S Open, when Justine has owned her since 2003. Kim beat Venus, Sharapova, and Pierce to win the U.S Open, not just Mary Pierce. Capriati was at her career peak in 2001, Kim wasnt even close to hers. The fact they were so evenly matched then just shows Kim was the better player, she simply didnt have the lucky horseshoe wedged up her butt that let Capriati, the weakest 3 time slam winner ever, somehow win 3 career slams. Also in your bizarre potrayal that Kim is even considered superior to Justine and is somehow regularly expected to beat her, than she would have no problem with the sisters of today considering Justine was owning them in 2007 when she was last playing serious tennis before retiring.

The field when Kim played had Venus and Serena much better than they are now, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters herself, Henin, Mauresmo, Hingis. Now it has a grossly fat Serena, a hibernate all year except Wimbledon Venus, Maria on the shelf maybe for good with chronic shoulder, and a bunch of mediocre Russians and Serbs who Clijsters is something like 49-2 head to head against.

Keep in mind people this is the same individual that thinks 1 time French Open winner Goolagong is a better clay courter than 5 time French Open winner Court. Dont be surprised.

Mick
03-28-2009, 06:52 AM
i don't know if i am under-estimating cljisters but i think she has a shot at reaching the top ten but i don't think she could ever become number 1 again.

Ocean Drive
03-28-2009, 06:56 AM
Retired when in her peak years, age wise, stupid decision, same with Henin.

egn
03-28-2009, 05:55 PM
It matters since you are basing Kim's chances vs Serena based on how she did vs her in 2002-2003. Serena is not even close to the same player she was in 2002-2003 due to fitness, commitment, weight, and who knows what other issues. Thus if Kim could return to her 2003-2005 form, which is not a certainty of course, she would do much better vs Serena than she did then. Much lesser players than Kim like Kuznetsova and Azarenka are playing Serena in slam matches they really should have beaten her recently, so why on earth wouldnt Kim have a great shot now if she returned to her former form.

If she gets there yes but I don't see her getting there which is why I don't really feel it matters if Serena is 2002-2003 because I don't see Cljisters getting back to top form which was 2003..

You want to put Kim in 2005 form it is honestly quite level with Serena of last year or this year but 2003 was well Kim's best year and she got whipped by Serena's best so I don't see Kim playing today because realistically what are the odds of her playing like 03 or 05 standing a chance against Serena..But this is then all speculation. We can't really determine how they would play against each other now because we are still assuming Kim gets back into top form.





Sorry but from 2004-2007 Justine would have won almost any match between her and Venus except on grass. Justine has simply been the better player ever since the start of 2004 onwards at the very least. The 2007 U.S Open was probably the best non grass court tennis Venus has played since the 2003 Australian Open and it still wasnt enough to even get a set off of Justine. If you are talking about prime Venus vs prime Justine than that might well be different, but Venus's prime has been long over awhile now. Maybe you are referring to your guess if they were in their hypothetical primes together, in which case I could believe your perspective. Otherwise no.

I bet if Serena had barely played Justine that whole time too you would also have assumed Serena would have regularly beaten her outside of clay still. However when Justine and Serena played pretty often again in 2007 it was proven that was far from the case, and Serena is better than Venus anywhere except grass as well. Justine from 2004-2007 won over twice as much as anybody else including the sisters, she was by far the best player in the world overall combining those four years.

I think Justine would have come out regular victor winning 66 percent but I still think Venus could take hard court matches away I don't feel it would have been romps.


Oh yea to foil your theory out of shape Serena in 2007-2008 lead their hardcourt head to head 2-1...She came back from a bagel set to win that Miami finals in 2007. By 2008 honestly Serena was better than Henin and I feel Henin retiring actually changed things. She demolished Henin in Miami in 2008 6-2, 6-0. Henin only lead 3-2 from 2007-2008 when Serena was far out of shape and as you said "way past her prime" Unless Henin 2008 does not count because she is out of prime because Serena 2008 you said is out of prime also so that should be a relatively fair match up. Honestly I think I can say if Serena put more effort into 2007 I think that head to head would swing in her favor but then it is my opinion.

LOOSeDAWG
03-28-2009, 06:49 PM
All we know about Clijsters is she was one of the best players in an era that is stronger than today, that alone pretty much guarantees she will have a shot at winning slams today even if she isn't at her best.

boredone3456
03-28-2009, 07:35 PM
Oh yea to foil your theory out of shape Serena in 2007-2008 lead their hardcourt head to head 2-1...She came back from a bagel set to win that Miami finals in 2007. By 2008 honestly Serena was better than Henin and I feel Henin retiring actually changed things. She demolished Henin in Miami in 2008 6-2, 6-0. Henin only lead 3-2 from 2007-2008 when Serena was far out of shape and as you said "way past her prime" Unless Henin 2008 does not count because she is out of prime because Serena 2008 you said is out of prime also so that should be a relatively fair match up. Honestly I think I can say if Serena put more effort into 2007 I think that head to head would swing in her favor but then it is my opinion.

Your really gonna count that Loss in 2008 as being reflective of true Justine, please. After the Australian Open in 2008 Justine was done. Sharapova beating her 6-4 6-0 destroyed her, she lost all her fire after that match. Justine in 2008 also lost matches to Safina and Schiavone, who up until those losses she was 7-0 against both of them never conceding a set to either one. It was obvious that Henin had pretty much Given up even though she kept playing after the 08 Aussie Open. If you want a true comparison of Henin and Serena, look at 2007 where Henin beat her in the quarters of 3 of the 4 slams. 2007 miami was prime Henin, 2008 Miami was shell of her former self Henin, and I think Henin more than avenged that 2007 loss in the following 3 majors.

egn
03-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Your really gonna count that Loss in 2008 as being reflective of true Justine, please. After the Australian Open in 2008 Justine was done. Sharapova beating her 6-4 6-0 destroyed her, she lost all her fire after that match. Justine in 2008 also lost matches to Safina and Schiavone, who up until those losses she was 7-0 against both of them never conceding a set to either one. It was obvious that Henin had pretty much Given up even though she kept playing after the 08 Aussie Open. If you want a true comparison of Henin and Serena, look at 2007 where Henin beat her in the quarters of 3 of the 4 slams. 2007 miami was prime Henin, 2008 Miami was shell of her former self Henin, and I think Henin more than avenged that 2007 loss in the following 3 majors.

Was Serina 2008 in prime? See the point is everyone says you can't compare Serena 02-03 vs Henin then but it is okay to use Henin 07 against Serena? Serena was out of shape and completely off form in 2007 and 2008 Henin was definitely in better shape and playing better at the start of 2008 until that loss at Miami. Serena as established was far from her prime herself, Henin was not that far off she could have gotten back on top, she was still well on her role. Why can't 2002-2003 be a true comparison. Serena was 5-3 against Henin with all 3 losses coming on clay. She actually scored a win at the Rome final than too. Henin is 1-4 against Serena on hard and 0-1 on carpet they split grass (1-1) and Henin leads 4-1 on clay. Serena has not been her former self since 2004? Yet that excuse doesn't hold up since I can't use that to explain her wimbledon loss to Henin..so don't pull the Henin was her former self at Miami, because Serena was not her former self at all in 2007.

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
03-28-2009, 08:06 PM
I bit sensationalist intro, but I don't think she will really have a great impact on the tour as far as a Serena Williams will go, or Venus. Maybe will be like Lindsey and come back and beat some players who should have played better considering the walk they walk, but get pregnant again and have to go off yet again. Hmm, but maybe she'll be a Margaret Court, who knows. I strongly look forward to seeing her compete again though!

LOOSeDAWG
03-28-2009, 08:11 PM
Serena Williams doesn't win every slam, she is very inconsistent and goes missing for periods, she can be upset easily on a bad day with all those unforced errors. So whos going to win all those slams that Serena doesn't win each year? Venus Williams will alway win Wimbledon either way, but the other 3 slams will often be up for grabs and I don't expect Jankovic to get them, I'd think Clijsters is more likely even if she isn't at her best. The tour has become all about who makes the least unforced errors, there is no great tennis being played apart from Venus Williams at Wimbledon.

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
03-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Yes ok, there's a lot of interesting tennis being played by a number of women on the tour although some of them often do seem to have much more lapses than on the men's tour overall. There are more than 3 women who could win Grand Slams. Many more than 1 at Wimbledon. Who can't be upset on a bad day? LOL

LOOSeDAWG
03-28-2009, 08:24 PM
Venus William's reach and 1st serve allows her to win on a bad day at Wimbledon, she covers the court soo well both vertically and horizontally that she can make a plethora of errors and still win (at least at Wimbledon). I literally think Venus Williams will win Wimbledon until she loses her athleticism which doesn't seem to be slowing down. Whereas Serena has really lost a step or two and has no plan B when her timing is off. So I think all the slams are up for grabs apart from Wimbledon, and I think Clijsters will remind us of what tennis was like 3 years ago when women's tennis wasn't just about who makes the least unforced errors, there was some real shotmaking going on.

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
03-28-2009, 08:27 PM
Youre a total fan of Venus Williams, congrats, and youre repeating exact thing as before. I got that. But it makes me say again, there are more players on the tour with potential than just V or S regarding Clijsters, bottom line. But we will all see in any case as the season unfolds. Any Slam, any tournament, any match is up for grabs, thats the nature of the game.

LOOSeDAWG
03-28-2009, 08:46 PM
Any slam except for Wimbledon is up for grabs yeah. But I don't agree about the tor having great talents, it really is a lot worse than 3 years ago when Meuresmo, Henin, Clijsters were extremely consistent at the slams and the were beating each other, they weren't just making less errors than their opponent. Whereas Jankovic, Safina and other top players of today don't bring any great talent to the table other than outlasting each other.

grafselesfan
03-28-2009, 09:12 PM
Was Serina 2008 in prime? See the point is everyone says you can't compare Serena 02-03 vs Henin then but it is okay to use Henin 07 against Serena? Serena was out of shape and completely off form in 2007 and 2008 Henin was definitely in better shape and playing better at the start of 2008 until that loss at Miami. Serena as established was far from her prime herself, Henin was not that far off she could have gotten back on top, she was still well on her role. Why can't 2002-2003 be a true comparison. Serena was 5-3 against Henin with all 3 losses coming on clay. She actually scored a win at the Rome final than too. Henin is 1-4 against Serena on hard and 0-1 on carpet they split grass (1-1) and Henin leads 4-1 on clay. Serena has not been her former self since 2004? Yet that excuse doesn't hold up since I can't use that to explain her wimbledon loss to Henin..so don't pull the Henin was her former self at Miami, because Serena was not her former self at all in 2007.

To talk about Justine being in her prime in 2002 is a complete joke. Serena in 2007-now is even far more closer to her prime than Justine in 2002. Justine in 2002 was still a borderline top 10 player who was probably about the same level as say Daniela Hantuchova or Jelena Dokic around that time (when Hantuchova beat her at the U.S Open that year it wasnt even really a surprise). She was still being owned by all of Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters, and even a way past her prime Seles at that point. Justine's prime didnt even begin until the 2003 clay court season.

Also Serena in 2007 played by far her best tennis since 2003. It was clearly better than 2004, 2005, or 2006, so how can her best tennis in 4 years be horrible for her at this point. It is funny you seem upset when others say she is so out of shape and winning due to a weak field now that Henin has retired, but now you are even pointing out she was badly out of shape so which is it. We are also all pretty much acknowledging she is past her prime, which is our point. Stronger competition is bad news for Serena because she is past her prime and out of shape (which even you are admitting) and she is greatly benefitting from the weak field of choking opponents who are gifting her many of her wins, opponents not even the caliber of Clijsters, let alone Henin. I havent seen anyone saw outright a prime Serena couldnt do well even vs Justine on non-clay surfaces, let alone Clijsters. Serena will never be her former self again, 2007 and 2008 was not her former self, you are right, and still much better than 2004-2006.

Henin and Serena played 4 times in 2007. They played 3 times in slams on 3 different surfaces and Henin won all 3, allowing Serena only 1 set. Serena's win was their least important meeting by far as it wasnt in a grand slam, and even then she Justine blew a big lead with a crummy service game in what would have been a lopsided win otherwise. Even if you insist on counting 2008 it is now 3-2 but most importantly 3-0 in slams where it really mattered. 1-2 on hard courts, but their match that mattered by far the most of those 3, at the U.S Open, Justine spanked Serena on those fast hard courts on her way to the title and consolidating herself by far the best player of 2007.

Anyway Henin was completely gone in mind and spirit in the early part of 2008 which is why she retired. For whatever reason she had lost motivation and desire to play, as anyone who saw her play who has an ounce of objectivity would realize this. What the heck are you talking about that Justine was playing well in 2008 until that loss in Miami. Did you actually watch her play at all that year!?!? Serena crushing her, big whoop, Sharapova also did the only time they played that year, some players I cant even remember the names of took her to 3 sets, Schiavone beat her, Safina beat her on clay. That is only in about 5 or 6 tournaments that year before her retirement, and unlike Serena (especialy today) she doesnt purposely lay off on smaller events and not give a full effort. Serena in 2008 had her best year since 2003, surpassing 2007 which had been her best year since 2003, and you are still talking about it like it is her worst even at this past her peak point of her career. You are starting to make me laugh.

grafselesfan
03-28-2009, 09:28 PM
If she gets there yes but I don't see her getting there which is why I don't really feel it matters if Serena is 2002-2003 because I don't see Cljisters getting back to top form which was 2003..

Fair enough. Time will tell on that.

You want to put Kim in 2005 form it is honestly quite level with Serena of last year or this year but 2003 was well Kim's best year and she got whipped by Serena's best

Even here you are quite incorrect. As I already told you they played 4 times in late 2002-early 2003 when Serena was at her absolute peak and Kim was starting her prime. Serena won a tough 3 setter, then lost in straight sets in the WTA Championships final, had to come from 5-1 down in the final set and save match points vs a choking Kim in the 2003 AO semis, then only had one easy win in Miami. So what are you going to say now, Miami was the only time out of 4 meetings that counts as Serena's best. Serena even in her short peak had fewer days playing her best than almost any other great player with her very high risk and no holds barred playing style. Combine that with her short peak and even relatively short prime, and she had fewer days in her career at her true best than just about any other champion player in history. That is why this whole "Serena at her very best" is a bit of a joke widespread concept to begin with. So there is no real basis for saying a prime Kim was easy even for a peak Serena in the short evidence we have. Prime Kim was a much easier opponent for prime Venus than Serena.

Whether Kim was playing better in 2003 or 2005 is debateable. I personally think 2005 was even better but it seems you disagree so that is fine. In 2003 she was kept from winning more slams by her fragile pysche and by a prime Justine, prime Serena, and prime Venus, the three headed monster. We dont have any of those in that trio in even close to that kind of form right now IMO, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

so I don't see Kim playing today because realistically what are the odds of her playing like 03 or 05 standing a chance against Serena..

The same Serena who you are claiming has been way out of shape and a shadow of herself in 2007 and 2008. What are you suggesting, that Serena has suddenly taken this huge leap of form in 2009 compared to those two years where she needed Azarenka to fall ill and the combination of the roof being closed/Kuznsetova melting down to win Australia?

Oh yea to foil your theory out of shape Serena in 2007-2008 lead their hardcourt head to head 2-1...She came back from a bagel set to win that Miami finals in 2007. By 2008 honestly Serena was better than Henin and I feel Henin retiring actually changed things. She demolished Henin in Miami in 2008 6-2, 6-0. Henin only lead 3-2 from 2007-2008 when Serena was far out of shape and as you said "way past her prime" Unless Henin 2008 does not count because she is out of prime because Serena 2008 you said is out of prime also so that should be a relatively fair match up. Honestly I think I can say if Serena put more effort into 2007 I think that head to head would swing in her favor but then it is my opinion.

As I already said 2-1 on hard courts, but 0-1 in slam meetings on hard courts, 0-3 on slam meetings counting all surfaces. Looking at only 2007 1-1 on hard courts, Serena's win a huge lead blown by Justine in a non slam event, Justine's win a destruction of Serena in a slam event which Justine went on to win.

If she had put more effort, are you actually suggesting anything has changed since 2007 in that regard? Serena in 2008 and 2009 has been no better than 2007. At most only the same. The competition getting even easier (it wasnt much overall in 2007 even with Justine) is all that has changed. It has nothing to do with improved play or fitness on her part.

If Serena by 2008 was better than Justine it was because Justine was mentally out of it and didnt even want to be out there anymore, why on earth nobody knows but it was apparent in her tennis. Heck Jankovic who is 0-9 vs Justine was better than Justine in early 2008, are you going to say that was because of her collasal improved play or form too. Safina was better than Justine in early 2008, Ivanovic too.

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
03-28-2009, 09:32 PM
Any slam except for Wimbledon is up for grabs yeah. But I don't agree about the tor having great talents, it really is a lot worse than 3 years ago when Meuresmo, Henin, Clijsters were extremely consistent at the slams and the were beating each other, they weren't just making less errors than their opponent. Whereas Jankovic, Safina and other top players of today don't bring any great talent to the table other than outlasting each other.

Might be, but then some of us have watched tennis for more than 3 years ago, or 10 years ago, or even 20 years ago or more, so there is some perspective in it than just what one is seeing these days.

DMan
03-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Hardly anything you say makes sense. Kim favored over Justine on clay in a French Open final, ROTFL!! Dont even know where to start there. Also based on what is Kim a heavy favorite vs Justine anywhere, even at the U.S Open, when Justine has owned her since 2003. Kim beat Venus, Sharapova, and Pierce to win the U.S Open, not just Mary Pierce. Capriati was at her career peak in 2001, Kim wasnt even close to hers. The fact they were so evenly matched then just shows Kim was the better player, she simply didnt have the lucky horseshoe wedged up her butt that let Capriati, the weakest 3 time slam winner ever, somehow win 3 career slams. Also in your bizarre potrayal that Kim is even considered superior to Justine and is somehow regularly expected to beat her, than she would have no problem with the sisters of today considering Justine was owning them in 2007 when she was last playing serious tennis before retiring.

The field when Kim played had Venus and Serena much better than they are now, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters herself, Henin, Mauresmo, Hingis. Now it has a grossly fat Serena, a hibernate all year except Wimbledon Venus, Maria on the shelf maybe for good with chronic shoulder, and a bunch of mediocre Russians and Serbs who Clijsters is something like 49-2 head to head against.

Keep in mind people this is the same individual that thinks 1 time French Open winner Goolagong is a better clay courter than 5 time French Open winner Court. Dont be surprised.

Everything I said made sense. I don't wear the Clijsters fan club rose colored glasses.
First, Clisjters was seeded ahead of Justine at the 03 French Open. Same for the US Open (Kim was seeded #1). Clijsters had won the Italian Open just weeks before the French, and had been in a French final before, beating Justine en route. Justine crushed Kim in the French final.

At the US Open, Justine was stretched to a 3 hour, 3rd set tiebreak semifinal finish at 12:30am, and had to come back and face Clijsters a few hours later, who had breezed to the final. Kim served for the first set, and then crumbled against Justine. Then Kim cried 'snit, snit' Justine must be on drugs to have come back and won. Ignoring the fact that Clijsters is one of the biggest chokers of all-time.

Capriati did everything she could to lose the 01 French final. The she remembered she was playing Clijsters. Funny how Capriati was at her career peak, but also the luckiest 3 time Slam winner. Huh? Capriati also never lost a Slam final. Something Kim cannot say! Let's see, each time Jennifer won a major she happened to beat Hingis. In the 01 Australian Open she beat 4-time champ Seles, ranked #4, defending champ #2 Davenport, and 3-time champ and world #1 Hingis. At the French she beat #1 Hingis and that 'better player' Clijsters. And at the 2002 Australian Open she beat Clijsters (was she the better player that day too?) and #3 Hingis. I am sure Jennifer feels she'd rather be lucky than the 'better player' Kim as far as # of majors won.

I never portrayed Kim as being superior to Justine. That existed in Kim's mind alone, and much of the media, who fawned over 'nice girl' Kim. But Clijsters was ranked ahead of Justine for much of 2003. And lost in their biggest of matches.

Yup, Serena is overweight. And guess what? She's #1 and has won 10 majors, and lost to Clijsters a grand total of 1 time. Serena doesn't fear Kim. I am sure she remembers one of Kim's more infamous choke-athons - the 2003 Australian Open semis. Venus is good, if she is able to win the Tour Championships in November, and Dubai and Acapulco earlier this year, despite her "hibernating act".

I'll stand by my claim Kim has no chance of winning another major again. Nor will she even be in the hunt. She'll be back to birthing babies soon.

PS - in my assessment of former players, I based it on Open era results. I stand by my assertion of Goolagong slightly ahead of Court on clay.

THUNDERVOLLEY
03-28-2009, 10:40 PM
Serena leads 7-1
Venus leads 6-4

End of story.

Clijsters was and will remain a one-note player. If she ever reached a GS final again (winning is not part of the serious conversation), it would be nothing short of a genie helping her out.

grafrules
03-28-2009, 10:46 PM
Honestly I am not even going to say anything until:

1)I actaully see her come back. Until then I take a "I will see it when I believe it" approach. Then how regularly she is playing if she does come back.

2)See what sort of form she is in if/when she actually does come back.

Until then I dont even give her supposed comeback much thought. It doesnt really make sense to not be asking for wildcards of events until August when she is announcing a comeback in March. Shouldnt she already be prepared for her comeback at or close to the time of an announcment if she is really serious? Like I said wait and see for me.

janipyt05
03-29-2009, 09:39 AM
Serena leads 7-1
Venus leads 6-4

That's all i got to say. Like they should be worried

hewittboy
03-29-2009, 11:20 AM
It is a pretty sad reflection on the pathetic state of womens tennis now that people are getting this excited about an overhyped and perennialy choking 1 slam wonder possibly returning. Womens tennis has the worst field in history now.

Lionheart392
09-13-2009, 04:56 AM
Well it looks like Gamesampras was right :)

mtommer
09-13-2009, 11:16 AM
Well it looks like Gamesampras was right :)

Indeed. Plus, threads like this show why intuition is can be more powerful and reliable then well constructed arguments based on logic.

Lionheart392
09-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Indeed. Plus, threads like this show why intuition is can be more powerful and reliable then well constructed arguments based on logic.

It surprises me reading this thread how many people were dismissing the idea of a Clijsters comeback as ridiculous. Here are the two best quotes:


Clijsters was and will remain a one-note player. If she ever reached a GS final again (winning is not part of the serious conversation), it would be nothing short of a genie helping her out.

This comeback is as nauseating as it is predictable. I give it six months.

Go away Kim. You retired already.

I'm glad she proved them wrong :) Must've been a very powerful genie to help her get rid of both Williams sisters in the same tournament.
GO KIM!

GasquetGOAT
09-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."

Wow good call. Too bad he's banned, would've been interesting to see what kind of "Nadal is a joke" threads he can came up with after today.

Objective Danny
09-13-2009, 12:24 PM
Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."


Your post was spot on! Kim has the number of the Williams sisters. She gave them a tennis lesson. Good for her.

shinta
09-13-2009, 12:29 PM
lol, nice necro thread. really wish those who were so quick to dismiss kim would come back and eat their words, lol.

lambielspins
09-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Everything I said made sense. I don't wear the Clijsters fan club rose colored glasses.
First, Clisjters was seeded ahead of Justine at the 03 French Open. Same for the US Open (Kim was seeded #1). Clijsters had won the Italian Open just weeks before the French, and had been in a French final before, beating Justine en route. Justine crushed Kim in the French final.

At the US Open, Justine was stretched to a 3 hour, 3rd set tiebreak semifinal finish at 12:30am, and had to come back and face Clijsters a few hours later, who had breezed to the final. Kim served for the first set, and then crumbled against Justine. Then Kim cried 'snit, snit' Justine must be on drugs to have come back and won. Ignoring the fact that Clijsters is one of the biggest chokers of all-time.

Capriati did everything she could to lose the 01 French final. The she remembered she was playing Clijsters. Funny how Capriati was at her career peak, but also the luckiest 3 time Slam winner. Huh? Capriati also never lost a Slam final. Something Kim cannot say! Let's see, each time Jennifer won a major she happened to beat Hingis. In the 01 Australian Open she beat 4-time champ Seles, ranked #4, defending champ #2 Davenport, and 3-time champ and world #1 Hingis. At the French she beat #1 Hingis and that 'better player' Clijsters. And at the 2002 Australian Open she beat Clijsters (was she the better player that day too?) and #3 Hingis. I am sure Jennifer feels she'd rather be lucky than the 'better player' Kim as far as # of majors won.

I never portrayed Kim as being superior to Justine. That existed in Kim's mind alone, and much of the media, who fawned over 'nice girl' Kim. But Clijsters was ranked ahead of Justine for much of 2003. And lost in their biggest of matches.

Yup, Serena is overweight. And guess what? She's #1 and has won 10 majors, and lost to Clijsters a grand total of 1 time. Serena doesn't fear Kim. I am sure she remembers one of Kim's more infamous choke-athons - the 2003 Australian Open semis. Venus is good, if she is able to win the Tour Championships in November, and Dubai and Acapulco earlier this year, despite her "hibernating act".

I'll stand by my claim Kim has no chance of winning another major again. Nor will she even be in the hunt. She'll be back to birthing babies soon.


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