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View Full Version : Well will you look at DENT!


Jimmyk459
03-29-2009, 02:57 PM
Someone is going through the miami draw pretty well... Has had some good results... even beat Robredo...

Any future for the guy?

thejoe
03-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Ahem! Spoiler Alert!

OliverSimon
03-29-2009, 03:03 PM
GO DENT!!!!!! hes playing great reaching the third round to play robredo

tomas9848
03-29-2009, 04:26 PM
yeah i think he is playing great and a great comeback story.

sureshs
03-29-2009, 04:28 PM
It would be fun to see him charge the net and blow Nadal and Federer away - like a poor man's Sampras.

Blinkism
03-29-2009, 04:37 PM
Taylor Dent?

ummmmm.... no

Fedace
03-29-2009, 04:39 PM
He beat Robredo. Not exactly the best hard court player in the world. but it was a nice win nevertheless. Lets see if he can do some damage at Wimbledon this year.

egn
03-29-2009, 04:39 PM
Dent who is 27 and never broke the top 20...his future is maybe he gets top 50 again and thats pushing it.

AAUS
03-29-2009, 04:54 PM
you mean Dent who reached 21 in the world before his injury who plays S+V which usually peaks for players later on than baseliners?

I think top 50 at least if he remains healthy during the hardcourt and grass seasons

JeMar
03-29-2009, 04:56 PM
Uh-oh, I just got spoiler'd

ronalditop
03-29-2009, 05:08 PM
he seriously needs to lose some weight. he's now as fast as serena.

breon1@hotmail.com
03-29-2009, 05:31 PM
serena is not fat!! she is muscular, plus dent will get thinner if he continues to play

breon1@hotmail.com
03-29-2009, 05:33 PM
serena is not fat!! she is muscular. besides dent is 27 im sure he will drop some more pounds

J-man
03-29-2009, 05:33 PM
Nice to see dent putting some wins together after the long lay off. Beaten some decent opposition

miniRafa386
03-29-2009, 05:36 PM
serena is not fat!! she is muscular. besides dent is 27 im sure he will drop some more pounds

yea shes pretty fat

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 05:38 PM
He beat Robredo. Not exactly the best hard court player in the world. but it was a nice win nevertheless. Lets see if he can do some damage at Wimbledon this year.

Wow, a post by Fedace that I agree with.


This is scary.

breon1@hotmail.com
03-29-2009, 05:39 PM
she does have big breast + a hip but have u seen her arm

Joseph L. Barrow
03-29-2009, 06:46 PM
I'm seized with laughter whenever I see a photo of him during his service motion. It would be great to see that in action against the top players.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Now who says serve and volley doesn't work in today's game?

I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

Nadal should pray he never has to play Taylor Dent. :shock:

wilsondude
03-29-2009, 06:53 PM
taylor dent is amazing!

Fedace
03-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Wow, a post by Fedace that I agree with.


This is scary.

True Geniuses are misunderstood on many occasions.

himynameisNIKE
03-29-2009, 06:58 PM
love to see how it goes against the fed express

Breaker
03-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Now who says serve and volley doesn't work in today's game?

I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

Nadal should pray he never has to play Taylor Dent. :shock:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&player2=henman

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/IHTennis/lleyton-hewitt-tim-henman.jpg

:)

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:05 PM
^^^^^
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=courier

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=muster

edberg505
03-29-2009, 07:05 PM
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&player2=henman

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/IHTennis/lleyton-hewitt-tim-henman.jpg

:)

LOL, yeah you have to be a somewhat competent volleyer. Henman didn't do to well with Nadal either. It's kinda odd how he didn't manage to play Agassi too many times as well.

VivalaVida
03-29-2009, 07:07 PM
Now who says serve and volley doesn't work in today's game?

I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

Nadal should pray he never has to play Taylor Dent. :shock:
ROFL. Why should nadal fear dent or S&V players?. Nadal will make Dent look like a fool on the court. Sorry, but Nadal is the undisputed world number 1 and I am sure he doesn't fear dent.

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 07:09 PM
^^^^^
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=courier

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=muster

Ahem:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=C243

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=rafter%2C+patrick&player2=muster

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=edberg&player2=muster

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:09 PM
ROFL. More like Dent should pray that he never has to play Nadal. Nadal will make Dent look like a fool on the court. Sorry, but Nadal is undisputed world number 1 and I am sure he doesn't fear dent.
Nadal got to #1 without having to play against hardly any serve and volleyers at all. He wouldn't have been #1 if he played in the '80's or 90's.

NotSoSuper
03-29-2009, 07:09 PM
Although Robredo is on one of his weakest surfaces, its still a huge win for Dent. I didnt expect him to win. if he drops some weight, and can serve well, i can see him getting top 50 for sure.

NotSoSuper
03-29-2009, 07:10 PM
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Hewitt%2C+Lleyton&player2=henman

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/IHTennis/lleyton-hewitt-tim-henman.jpg

:)

That is a great picture:D

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:11 PM
Ahem:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=C243

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=rafter%2C+patrick&player2=muster

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=edberg&player2=muster
Exactly!! :)

maverick66
03-29-2009, 07:13 PM
Nadal got to #1 without having to play against hardly any serve and volleyers at all. He wouldn't have been #1 if he played in the '80's or 90's.

that is bs. you cant say that he would or wouldnt becuase you just dont know. he right now is owning what alot of people called the greatest player ever. his game is so underrated it hurts. he hits big off of both sides, can come forward now, and is strengthening his serve.

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 07:14 PM
Exactly!! :)

Edberg was also 4-0 on clay against Muster, a French open champion!!!!

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:18 PM
that is bs. you cant say that he would or wouldnt becuase you just dont know. he right now is owning what alot of people called the greatest player ever. his game is so underrated it hurts. he hits big off of both sides, can come forward now, and is strengthening his serve.
Hello? Nadal is so dominant right now because NOBODY serves and volleys anymore! Do you get it now? Serve and volley is a weapon of mass destruction that Nadal CANNOT defend against. It is out of his hands. You have to get your racquet on the ball before you can hit it. Just ask Muster, Courier, Agassi, Chang, etc.

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 07:20 PM
I'm sure Nadal would've gotten to number one in the past as well. He probably would've adapted to a different style. But his game, as of now, would be a game that serve and volleyers would love to play.

I'd love to see that match. Nadal's crazy passing shots mixed with the attacking tennis would be great entertainment.

VivalaVida
03-29-2009, 07:22 PM
Ahem:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=C243

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=rafter%2C+patrick&player2=muster

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=edberg&player2=muster
Ahem..
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Rafter%2C+Patrick&player2=agassi
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=Safin
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=S402&playernum2=C274
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=C274

^^^Chang doesnt have a win rec against sampras but the H2H isnt bad at all for a Counter puncher.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:23 PM
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=mahut&player2=nadal

And Mahut is only a mediocre serve and volleyer and Nadal almost won Wimbledon the following week taking Federer to a 5th set in the final.

imalil2gangsta4u
03-29-2009, 07:24 PM
we will see

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Ahem..
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Rafter%2C+Patrick&player2=agassi
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/?player1=Sampras%2C+Pete&player2=Safin
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=S402&playernum2=C274
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=R255&playernum2=C274

^^^Chang doesnt have a win rec against sampras but the H2H isnt bad at all for a Counter puncher.

Fair enough. I don't argue the fact that all serve and volleyers will beat all baseliners. But some baseliners are more prone to losing to serve and volleyers than others.

VivalaVida
03-29-2009, 07:28 PM
Fair enough. I don't argue the fact that all serve and volleyers will beat all baseliners. But some baseliners are more prone to losing to serve and volleyers than others.
you are right.I see your point about S&V as well but I dont believe for a second that nadal's domination is due to the fact that no one S&Vs anymore.

Mansewerz
03-29-2009, 07:30 PM
you are right? I see your point about S&V as well but I dont believe for a second that nadal's domination is due to the fact that no one S&Vs anymore.

Of course it isn't. He adapted well to today's game.

Ronaldo
03-29-2009, 07:31 PM
she does have big breast + a hip but have u seen her arm

It's not her arm butt her legs that carry that weight.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:31 PM
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=isner&player2=monfils

edberg505
03-29-2009, 07:33 PM
ROFL. Why should nadal fear dent or S&V players?. Nadal will make Dent look like a fool on the court. Sorry, but Nadal is the undisputed world number 1 and I am sure he doesn't fear dent.

Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

icedevil0289
03-29-2009, 07:35 PM
Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

You know they actually played against each other when they were in the juniors. I believe dent won the match. It was mentioned in roger's presser today.

VivalaVida
03-29-2009, 07:38 PM
Hello? Nadal is so dominant right now because NOBODY serves and volleys anymore! Do you get it now? Serve and volley is a weapon of mass destruction that Nadal CANNOT defend against. It is out of his hands. You have to get your racquet on the ball before you can hit it. Just ask Muster, Courier, Agassi, Chang, etc.

You only bring this theory up because there is no way to prove it wrong because there are no S&V players anymore, however that doesnt mean your theory is right either. As a matter of fact, I hope a bunch of S&V people come along and play nadal. That way we will be able to see who is right and who is wrong.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:42 PM
You only bring this theory up because there is no way to prove it wrong because there are no S&V players anymore, however that doesnt mean your theory is right either. As a matter of fact, I hope a bunch of S&V people come along and play nadal. That way we will be able to see who is right and who is wrong.
Mahut did beat Nadal, and Kendrick was two points away from beating him at Wimbledon a few years ago and both of those guys are second rate players. Verdasco and Fish were also pretty effective against Nadal when they chose to serve and volley. Nadal stands so far back to receive serve that he's a serve and volleyers dream come true. Of course, you need to have a big serve and good volleying skills. How many players on tour today have good volleying skills? Very few.

Noveson
03-29-2009, 07:52 PM
Nadal got to #1 without having to play against hardly any serve and volleyers at all. He wouldn't have been #1 if he played in the '80's or 90's.

Wow, here we go again:rolleyes:

This is what I would do to you if we ever met.
http://bevan.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pwned4.jpg

Breaker
03-29-2009, 07:53 PM
Mahut did beat Nadal, and Kendrick was two points away from beating him at Wimbledon a few years ago and both of those guys are second rate players. Verdasco and Fish were also pretty effective against Nadal when they chose to serve and volley. Nadal stands so far back to receive serve that he's a serve and volleyers dream come true. Of course, you need to have a big serve and good volleying skills. How many players on tour today have good volleying skills? Very few.

He may not have won Wimbledon during the 90's, but serve and volley would still be relatively ineffective at the Aussie Open and Roland Garros against him, it would still take guys playing blinders like Gonzalez or a great all court display like from Tsonga to take him out, he'd still be in with a shout for number 1 during that period with the necessary adjustments.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:54 PM
Wow, here we go again:rolleyes:

This is what I would do to you if we ever met.
http://bevan.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pwned4.jpg
So you agree that I'm right then.

Thank you.

BreakPoint
03-29-2009, 07:56 PM
He may not have won Wimbledon during the 90's, but serve and volley would still be relatively ineffective at the Aussie Open and Roland Garros against him, it would still take guys playing blinders like Gonzalez or a great all court display like from Tsonga to take him out, he'd still be in with a shout for number 1 during that period with the necessary adjustments.
And look at what Tsonga did to Nadal when he served and volleyed or came to the net.

JoshDragon
03-29-2009, 08:09 PM
Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

I agree Nadal vs Dent would be good.

seffina
03-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Glad Dent is doing well here. Didn't expect it.

Leelord337
03-29-2009, 08:24 PM
he seriously needs to lose some weight. he's now as fast as serena.

its just your widescreen lcd tv that makes him look like that, i was watching tennis on an old style tv yesterday and i was really surprised how thin the pros looked

Tennis_Bum
03-29-2009, 11:52 PM
I agree Nadal vs Dent would be good.

It would be good only if Dent can have a high percentage of first serve or otherwise Dent would be killed. I saw Dent recently at IW. He had good moments but his game is still very inconsistent. Dent needs to serve very well, not necessarily had to be aces but had to have high 1st serves so that he can attack. If he had to serve 2nd too many times, then he wouldn't be effective against most people let alone Nadal.

But let's see if Dent can get more consistent and lose say 10 to 15 pounds. Then he can be more mobile and less injury-prone. He was entertaining to watch at IW. It was refreshing to see a different game for once. Too many base liners are roaming the courts nowadays make for really boring tennis sometimes. Contrasting styles make it more exciting.

Lotto
03-30-2009, 12:04 AM
I'm afraid Dent's run is going to come to an end tomorrow in the 4th round..................

Thor
03-30-2009, 12:55 AM
Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

I was hoping for a Dent Nadal match,that way "Cesc Fabregas" would leave us for two months.
Wouldnt get 4 games huh?

I wonder if he'd be dumb enough to take that bet again after this tournament.

carlos djackal
03-30-2009, 01:31 AM
somehow I still feel that a peak sampras would never be beaten by a peak Nadal in fast surfaces......IMO....

edberg505
03-30-2009, 01:42 AM
I was hoping for a Dent Nadal match,that way "Cesc Fabregas" would leave us for two months.
Wouldnt get 4 games huh?

I wonder if he'd be dumb enough to take that bet again after this tournament.

Ahhh, that's who that was. I couldn't remember who I made the bet with. I'm waiting on that one. Maybe they can play during the grass season.

lawrence
03-30-2009, 01:53 AM
s&v is good for sure, but against poly strings, and someone as fast as nadal?

i dunno. seems like a tough game

carlos djackal
03-30-2009, 07:09 AM
I would love for Dent to get good results in his comeback, he is one of the very few true S&V players around....

Thor
03-30-2009, 11:23 AM
Ahhh, that's who that was. I couldn't remember who I made the bet with. I'm waiting on that one. Maybe they can play during the grass season.

Hopefully Dent is done with inujries.
Such a beautiful game.

fastdunn
03-30-2009, 11:57 AM
how can a over-weighted S&Ver can beat current top 10 players out of nowhere ?

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 12:25 PM
how can a over-weighted S&Ver can beat current top 10 players out of nowhere ?
Because serve and volley > baseliner. :)

And all the top players today are basically baseliners. :(

King of Aces
03-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Because serve and volley > baseliner. :)

And all the top players today are basically baseliners. :(

Hey I love Dent as well.

You see we are not as different as ya think. :).

I would love to see dent win as well.

Underhand
03-30-2009, 12:41 PM
Dent should beat the mental midget Federer.

Benefactor
03-30-2009, 12:42 PM
The Dent-Federer match is tomorrow, no?

icedevil0289
03-30-2009, 12:44 PM
The Dent-Federer match is tomorrow, no?

yup. I'm really looking foward to it. It should be fun. Hopefully roger wins, but I'm just hoping for a good match.

l_gonzalez
03-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Because serve and volley > baseliner. :)

And all the top players today are basically baseliners. :(

that sweeping generalisation is taking things a bit too far.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Mahut did beat Nadal, and Kendrick was two points away from beating him at Wimbledon a few years ago and both of those guys are second rate players. Verdasco and Fish were also pretty effective against Nadal when they chose to serve and volley. Nadal stands so far back to receive serve that he's a serve and volleyers dream come true. Of course, you need to have a big serve and good volleying skills. How many players on tour today have good volleying skills? Very few.

Are you suggesting that Nadal will use the same gameplan against S & V's? There is a reason why we don't see S & V's anymore these pros are gunning out 70-90mph groundies/returns... there's no way you can keep up volleying consistently. Now if Dent is to play Fed or Nadal we are looking at 80-100 passing shots stats.

edberg505
03-30-2009, 01:21 PM
Are you suggesting that Nadal will use the same gameplan against S & V's? There is a reason why we don't see S & V's anymore these pros are gunning out 70-90mph groundies/returns... there's no way you can keep up volleying consistently. Now if Dent is to play Fed or Nadal we are looking at 80-100 passing shots stats.

No, the reason that we don't see it now is because no one is really willing to put in the work to perfect the strategy. As juniors they are perfectly fine with hitting hundreds of groundies all day long. Basically, most juniors are of the mindset: Baseline good. Net bad!

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaker
He may not have won Wimbledon during the 90's, but serve and volley would still be relatively ineffective at the Aussie Open and Roland Garros against him, it would still take guys playing blinders like Gonzalez or a great all court display like from Tsonga to take him out, he'd still be in with a shout for number 1 during that period with the necessary adjustments.

__________________
And look at what Tsonga did to Nadal when he served and volleyed or came to the net.

Tsonga won that match not because he was s & v but he was effective all around.

djsiva
03-30-2009, 01:52 PM
Someone is going through the miami draw pretty well... Has had some good results... even beat Robredo...

Any future for the guy?

Future Jenny Craig sponsorship! Could beat out Nalbandian and Davenpig!

fastdunn
03-30-2009, 01:55 PM
How can this over-weighted former Southern California teaching pro beat top 20 players ?? :)

l_gonzalez
03-30-2009, 01:59 PM
How can this over-weighted former Southern California teaching pro beat top 20 players ?? :)

its overweight by the way. before he was a teaching pro he was a quality player. See if you can catch highlights of his match against Agassi at Wimbledon.

He might be carrying a few extra lbs but he'll work those off as he plays more and more tennis.

fastdunn
03-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Hey, I got a private lesson from this fat guy in the "West End" club of Torrance, CA ! :) <-- hint, hint

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 02:17 PM
Are you suggesting that Nadal will use the same gameplan against S & V's? There is a reason why we don't see S & V's anymore these pros are gunning out 70-90mph groundies/returns... there's no way you can keep up volleying consistently. Now if Dent is to play Fed or Nadal we are looking at 80-100 passing shots stats.
I'm not just suggesting it, I'm stating it as a fact. I've seen Nadal play against serve and volleyers and he stands even further back to receive serve, especially if the opponent also has a big serve.

Did you see the Monfils-Isner match from IW last week? Monfils was standing like 20 feet back to receive Isner's serve and all Isner had to do was to leisurely stroll into the net after his serve and have his way with Monfils. He hit drop volleys, angle volleys, any volley that he wanted to and Monfils couldn't get to any of them because by standing so far back to receive serve, he gave Isner so much more time to close in on the net (the ball has further to travel back and forth) and so much more reaction time (ball takes longer to cross the net) to knock off Monfils' return for a winner. Nadal does pretty much the same thing against serve and volleyers. And I'd say Monfils is just as fast as Nadal.

Breaker
03-30-2009, 02:29 PM
I'm not just suggesting it, I'm stating it as a fact. I've seen Nadal play against serve and volleyers and he stands even further back to receive serve, especially if the opponent also has a big serve.

Did you see the Monfils-Isner match from IW last week? Monfils was standing like 20 feet back to receive Isner's serve and all Isner had to do was to leisurely stroll into the net after his serve and have his way with Monfils. He hit drop volleys, angle volleys, any volley that he wanted to and Monfils couldn't get to any of them because by standing so far back to receive serve, he gave Isner so much more time to close in on the net (the ball has further to travel back and forth) and so much more reaction time (ball takes longer to cross the net) to knock off Monfils' return for a winner. Nadal does pretty much the same thing against serve and volleyers. And I'd say Monfils is just as fast as Nadal.

Did you watch the very next match where Isner played Ferrer? All Ferrer had to do was bunt the ball to Isner's feet to set himself up for an easy pass.

Granted, Ferrer's return is better than Nadal's but I'm sure Nadal would be able to do almost as well due to being faster than Ferrer and possessing better passing shots. On ANY court his passing shots would be able to keep him in matches against serve and volleyers - he would probably lose more often than not on a fast US Open or Wimbledon court but on a slower court he would have the distinctive edge.

kaiotic
03-30-2009, 03:01 PM
Future Jenny Craig sponsorship! Could beat out Nalbandian and Davenpig!

ahaha Davenpork

Go Taylor Dayne! if he stays injury free and loses about 20 lbs, then we got a realistic threat. hahaha someone said it best, this is a poor man's Sampras.
this guys' got a huge serve and nice touch at the net. Nadal should be concerned.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 03:31 PM
No, the reason that we don't see it now is because no one is really willing to put in the work to perfect the strategy. As juniors they are perfectly fine with hitting hundreds of groundies all day long. Basically, most juniors are of the mindset: Baseline good. Net bad!

Because S&V alone will not work, plain and simple. Why bother perfecting an ineffective strategy?

P_Agony
03-30-2009, 03:39 PM
Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

Don't forget Federer isn't troubled usually by big servers. His huge records vs. Karlovic and Roddick prove it. Should be an interesting match, and I'll be happy with either result.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I'm not just suggesting it, I'm stating it as a fact. I've seen Nadal play against serve and volleyers and he stands even further back to receive serve, especially if the opponent also has a big serve.Did you see the Monfils-Isner match from IW last week? Monfils was standing like 20 feet back to receive Isner's serve and all Isner had to do was to leisurely stroll into the net after his serve and have his way with Monfils. He hit drop volleys, angle volleys, any volley that he wanted to and Monfils couldn't get to any of them because by standing so far back to receive serve, he gave Isner so much more time to close in on the net (the ball has further to travel back and forth) and so much more reaction time (ball takes longer to cross the net) to knock off Monfils' return for a winner. Nadal does pretty much the same thing against serve and volleyers. And I'd say Monfils is just as fast as Nadal.

...and who are these s&v players? I'd like to see these matches. What was the outcome? Monfils maybe as fast as Rafa but that's about it. Your comparison is one sided.

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Did you watch the very next match where Isner played Ferrer? All Ferrer had to do was bunt the ball to Isner's feet to set himself up for an easy pass.

Granted, Ferrer's return is better than Nadal's but I'm sure Nadal would be able to do almost as well due to being faster than Ferrer and possessing better passing shots. On ANY court his passing shots would be able to keep him in matches against serve and volleyers - he would probably lose more often than not on a fast US Open or Wimbledon court but on a slower court he would have the distinctive edge.
No, because Isner didn't play Ferrer in the next match. He played Safin, and he did the same thing to Safin that he did to Monfils, beating Safin in straight sets, 6-4, 6-4.

In any case, Ferrer does stand closer to the net to receive serve than Nadal does. And it doesn't really matter how fast Nadal is because he won't get a second chance to pass a great serve and volleyer. He would pretty much have to pass the guy on the return every time, and as far back as Nadal stands, his chances of doing that are slim to none.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 03:51 PM
Dent should beat the mental midget Federer.

That's about the only reason Fed will loose to Dent to be honest.

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 03:54 PM
...and who are these s&v players? I'd like to see these matches. What was the outcome? Monfils maybe as fast as Rafa but that's about it. Your comparison is one sided.
They are nearly non-existent in today's pro game. But one is Nicholas Mahut, a guy ranked #132, so he's clearly a 2nd rate player. Yet, he beat Nadal in straight sets in 2007 by serving and volleying.

And Kendrick, another 2nd rate player, was two points away from knocking Nadal out of Wimbledon in 2006 also by serving and volleying.

FYI, Monfils is in the Top 10, so I'd say he's got more in common with Nadal than just his speed.

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 04:00 PM
Because S&V alone will not work, plain and simple. Why bother perfecting an ineffective strategy?
Of course it'll work. Just ask Pete Sampras.

His opponents knew he was coming in behind his serve but there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. The rules of the game state that you still have to return the serve back over the net. After that you're toast because you're still standing behind the baseline while the other guy is on top of the net where he can have his way with you. If you've ever played against a great serve and volleyer you'd know that it feels like you're being raped and ravaged. :shock:

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 04:04 PM
Don't forget Federer isn't troubled usually by big servers. His huge records vs. Karlovic and Roddick prove it. Should be an interesting match, and I'll be happy with either result.
I don't think either player proves anything. Karlovic is basically a big serve with a mediocre volley and Roddick is a big server who rarely serves and volleys and his volleys are pretty bad anyway. OTOH, Dent has BOTH a big serve and very good volleys, something we haven't really seen since the days of Sampras. Federer can't get away with just chipping, blocking or slicing back those big serves against a guy who comes in behind their serves and is a competent volleyer.

Breaker
03-30-2009, 04:05 PM
No, because Isner didn't play Ferrer in the next match. He played Safin, and he did the same thing to Safin that he did to Monfils, beating Safin in straight sets, 6-4, 6-4.

In any case, Ferrer does stand closer to the net to receive serve than Nadal does. And it doesn't really matter how fast Nadal is because he won't get a second chance to pass a great serve and volleyer. He would pretty much have to pass the guy on the return every time, and as far back as Nadal stands, his chances of doing that are slim to none.

You're right, the match was a few days ago, but it's the same point nonetheless.

What you're saying is very difficult to imagine happening outside of a lightning quick court. Even then the only "great serve and volleyers"/all court players that I could see Nadal having little to no chance against in those conditions are Sampras, Becker, Edberg, and maybe Rafter. The rest he would have every chance in the world to beat and odds are he'd be able to advance pretty deep into Wimbledon and the US Open even in the 90's. He probably wouldn't win, but would at least be able to make some deep runs.

Roland Garros he would obviously get a few titles, and Aussie Open he'd definitely be able to snag at least once.

We'll see how Dent performs against Roger.

Staiger
03-30-2009, 04:06 PM
IT is going to be a good match , I dont really care who is going to win but hope it will be a top match !

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 04:26 PM
They are nearly non-existent in today's pro game. But one is Nicholas Mahut, a guy ranked #132, so he's clearly a 2nd rate player. Yet, he beat Nadal in straight sets in 2007 by serving and volleying.

And Kendrick, another 2nd rate player, was two points away from knocking Nadal out of Wimbledon in 2006 also by serving and volleying.

FYI, Monfils is in the Top 10, so I'd say he's got more in common with Nadal than just his speed.

You're going to have a match like this once every 100 years. Sampras lost to George Bastl 145th ranked player. Are you going to say now the key to beating Sampras is by playing like G. Bastl?

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Fed/Dent match up. I'm hoping Dent will give it all out. I still think Dent's s&v style now and even on his prime won't cut it against Fed/Nadal or even the top5.

6-3, 6-1 Fed

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 04:33 PM
You're going to have a match like this once every 100 years. Sampras lost to George Bastl 145th ranked player. Are you going to say now the key to beating Sampras is by playing like G. Bastl?

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Fed/Dent match up. I'm hoping Dent will give it all out. I still think Dent's s&v style now and even on his prime won't cut it against Fed/Nadal or even the top5.

6-3, 6-1 Fed
And how did Bastl beat Sampras? By serving and volleying. Yes, even the great Sampras is susceptible to serve and volleyers. Remember a guy named Richard Krajicek?

Besides, Sampras was well past his prime when he lost to Bastl while Nadal got to the Wimbledon finals in both 2006 and 2007.

Richie Rich
03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
dent is the type of player that can give nadal lots of trouble. only thing is dent doesn't have the fitness level to hang with nadal over 3 sets. for dent to beat nadal it would have to be in 2 sets and dent would have to play perfectly. it can be done, especially if his serve is clicking, but i doubt dent is able to play at that level for a whole match.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 04:55 PM
Now who says serve and volley doesn't work in today's game?

I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.
Nadal should pray he never has to play Taylor Dent. :shock:

How about the Fed/Dent match up? Would you be willing to put your predictions (or your opinion on the line) here? No sweat if you don't want to ;-)

Mine is 6-3,6-1 Fed

Mansewerz
03-30-2009, 04:57 PM
Ahhh, that's who that was. I couldn't remember who I made the bet with. I'm waiting on that one. Maybe they can play during the grass season.

Hey, is that you in your avatar?

No, the reason that we don't see it now is because no one is really willing to put in the work to perfect the strategy. As juniors they are perfectly fine with hitting hundreds of groundies all day long. Basically, most juniors are of the mindset: Baseline good. Net bad!

I love net play. I just suck at it :D

Because S&V alone will not work, plain and simple. Why bother perfecting an ineffective strategy?

I'm working on becoming a serve and volleyer. Most recreational players can't hit the huge topspin needed to dip it at the feet consistently. They can do it, but not like the pros.

BreakPoint
03-30-2009, 05:06 PM
How about the Fed/Dent match up? Would you be willing to put your predictions (or your opinion on the line) here? No sweat if you don't want to ;-)

Mine is 6-3,6-1 Fed
The thing is Federer is not a pure baseliner. He can serve and volley himself to attack the net. He can take the net away from Dent by coming in behind his own serves and by coming in behind his own returns.

Federer beat Sampras by taking the net away from Sampras by serving and volleying himself and coming into the net every opportunity he got.

The-Champ
03-30-2009, 05:07 PM
Because serve and volley > baseliner. :)

And all the top players today are basically baseliners. :(


Well, hope he can stay fit so he can become world no.1

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 05:14 PM
The thing is Federer is not a pure baseliner. He can serve and volley himself to attack the net. He can take the net away from Dent by coming in behind his own serves and by coming in behind his own returns.

Federer beat Sampras by taking the net away from Sampras by serving and volleying himself and coming into the net every opportunity he got.

I knew your gonna say that ;-) but fair enough.

The thing is Nadal/Dent match up is next to impossible. So, you're cool!

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 05:17 PM
Well, hope he can stay fit so he can become world no.1

I like you champ. Bp will totally agree with your statement.

The-Champ
03-30-2009, 05:50 PM
I like you champ. Bp will totally agree with your statement.


is that a compliment?:)


Thanks man!!

It's a pity we wont get to see Rafa play against an all time great s&v. That would be epic. Rafa played Henman twice but that was three years ago...

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?player1=henman&player2=nadal

Of course, Henman was old and Rafa was at the top of his powers!

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 06:41 PM
And how did Bastl beat Sampras? By serving and volleying. Yes, even the great Sampras is susceptible to serve and volleyers. Remember a guy named Richard Krajicek?

Besides, Sampras was "WELL PAST" his prime when he lost to Bastl while Nadal got to the Wimbledon finals in both 2006 and 2007.

...and yet he won the US Open title the same year :confused:

edberg505
03-30-2009, 07:53 PM
Because S&V alone will not work, plain and simple. Why bother perfecting an ineffective strategy?

Can you prove that?

edberg505
03-30-2009, 07:59 PM
Hey, is that you in your avatar?

Yes, that's me. That picture was taken in Montrťal before all of his injury problems started up.

barukinzs
03-30-2009, 08:46 PM
Can you prove that?

No I can't ;-)

Max G.
03-30-2009, 09:22 PM
The thing is Federer is not a pure baseliner. He can serve and volley himself to attack the net. He can take the net away from Dent by coming in behind his own serves and by coming in behind his own returns.

Perhaps he can, but he does so very rarely. Because he's found he's much more effective as a baseliner.

Federer is in fact a perfect example. He CAN serve and volley. His serve is fine and so are his volleys. And yet he chooses not to, because it's effective only as a mixup, not as a routine play.

I'll guess that Federer, in this coming match, will serve and volley less than once per service game or two (if at all), and will play a baseline game, and will beat Dent with it.

coloskier
03-31-2009, 07:17 AM
Don't forget Federer isn't troubled usually by big servers. His huge records vs. Karlovic and Roddick prove it. Should be an interesting match, and I'll be happy with either result.

Only one problem with your statement. Neither Karlovic or Roddick play S&V, they play serve and forehand. Neither of them are even close to Dent's volleying skill, mainly because they don't have to hit a volley after their serve. they depend on poor service returns, whereas Dent depends on getting a little better return, but still an easy putaway volley.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 10:17 AM
You know what sucks? Fox/Comcast Sports will probably go off off the air before the Federer/Dent match starts. Unless the two matches before it are blowouts and end quickly, they will likely run out of their alloted time slot which ends at 5pm EST (2pm PST). I'd bet the Roddick/Monfils match is the last one they show today. I hope they prove me wrong but I'm not optimistic.

King of Aces
03-31-2009, 10:39 AM
You know what sucks? Fox/Comcast Sports will probably go off off the air before the Federer/Dent match starts. Unless the two matches before it are blowouts and end quickly, they will likely run out of their alloted time slot which ends at 5pm EST (2pm PST). I'd bet the Roddick/Monfils match is the last one they show today. I hope they prove me wrong but I'm not optimistic.

who are you rooting for?

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 10:42 AM
who are you rooting for?
Nobody. I just want to see a good match. But it's looking likely that I won't get to see it at all due to the poor TV coverage. :(

King of Aces
03-31-2009, 11:15 AM
Nobody. I just want to see a good match. But it's looking likely that I won't get to see it at all due to the poor TV coverage. :(

I think its on delayed on tennis channel

Max G.
03-31-2009, 11:15 AM
Try one of the online streaming sites. They might have it. Channelsurfing.net, justin.tv, atdhe.net - one of 'em might get you what you need. Even if it isn't a very high-resolution feed, I've found it to be enough to make the matches enjoyable and watchable.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 11:18 AM
I think its on delayed on tennis channel
Nope. Tennis Channel is on live tonight at 9pm EST for the men's match, which means they'll be showing the Nadal/Wawrinka match.

fastdunn
03-31-2009, 11:24 AM
Nope. Tennis Channel is on live tonight at 9pm EST for the men's match, which means they'll be showing the Nadal/Wawrinka match.

oh man i was hoping TTC air it. let's hope the match become very exciting one and either ttc or fox shows it later...

Staiger
03-31-2009, 11:41 AM
They will show Federer . I find watching Nadal a bit time-wasting....

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 11:53 AM
They will show Federer . I find watching Nadal a bit time-wasting....
I think that may happen only if the Nadal match is rained out tonight.

Fox Sports also went off the air right before some Federer matches at Indian Wells also. :(

john whilesmith
03-31-2009, 12:45 PM
All of this assumes that these S&V players would hold their own service games AND break Nadal's serve. Big assumption.

Fed couldn't break Nadal's serve at Wimbledon period and, although he broke it in Melbourne, he couldn't in the deciding set while dropping his own serve several times. Kendrick couldn't serve well enough for 5 sets, and once he lost his service games, the match was up. Fish managed 1 set at the US Open with some great all-court tennis. Nadal defends his service games pretty well and is always in contention on his opponents service games, relentlessly applying pressure.

coloskier
03-31-2009, 01:04 PM
All of this assumes that these S&V players would hold their own service games AND break Nadal's serve. Big assumption.

Fed couldn't break Nadal's serve at Wimbledon period and, although he broke it in Melbourne, he couldn't in the deciding set while dropping his own serve several times. Kendrick couldn't serve well enough for 5 sets, and once he lost his service games, the match was up. Fish managed 1 set at the US Open with some great all-court tennis. Nadal defends his service games pretty well and is always in contention on his opponents service games, relentlessly applying pressure.

You are trying to say that Kendrick, Fish, and Fed have as good a serve as Sampras????? ROFL!!!! Sampras did the one thing that Fed refuses to do, attack the service return. He only needed one break to win the set, that was his mindset, and Nadal would be toast unless he started taking Pete's serve on the baseline instead of 10 feet behind it. Nadal does not attack the service return, because NO ONE makes him do it, and it is very hard to do from 10 feet behind the baseline.

AndrewD
03-31-2009, 01:25 PM
I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

Even on clay? We all know that's not the case. Time to qualify 'almost' or drop it altogether.

0d1n
03-31-2009, 01:48 PM
I wonder if BP will EVER get tired of talking out of his arse...
So...let me get this straight...Dent would beat Nadal because Nadal is a baseliner, but he will not get the chance to play Nadal because he will get owned by Federer ... but only because Federer is actually NOT a baseliner...and he will "steal" the net away from Dent.
A S&V player will beat a baseliner almost every time (which is why the 99.(9) percent of the current pros are actually mentally challenged ... otherwise they would have been S&V players since they would have had better chances of winning).
Can we all chip in to help this man get some professional help ??

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 01:54 PM
Even on clay? We all know that's not the case. Time to qualify 'almost' or drop it altogether.
Who was the only guy that Borg EVER lost to at the French Open?

Adriano Panatta, a serve and volleyer. And he beat Borg, not once, but TWICE at the French!

So even the greatest clay court player of all time can be beaten on red clay by a serve and volleyer, and not even a great one at that.

And wouldn't you agree that Mats Wilander was a pretty good clay court player? I mean he did win the French Open 3 times, right? But guess who beat him easily in straight sets in a French Open final? Yup, Yannick Noah, a serve and volleyer.

BTW, lots of other serve and volleyers have won the French Open or got to the finals or at least the semis. But you don't really want me to list them, right?

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 01:59 PM
I wonder if BP will EVER get tired of talking out of his arse...
So...let me get this straight...Dent would beat Nadal because Nadal is a baseliner, but he will not get the chance to play Nadal because he will get owned by Federer ... but only because Federer is actually NOT a baseliner...and he will "steal" the net away from Dent.
A S&V player will beat a baseliner almost every time (which is why the 99.(9) percent of the current pros are actually mentally challenged ... otherwise they would have been S&V players since they would have had better chances of winning).
Can we all chip in to help this man get some professional help ??
99% of the current pros never learned how to serve and volley.

99% of the current pros are also not world-class figure skaters? Why? Oh, that's right, because they never learned how to do that, either. :-?

BTW, Federer also doesn't stand 15 feet behind the baseline to receive serve like Nadal does. But why let critical facts like that bother you. :oops:

0d1n
03-31-2009, 02:06 PM
I didn't know standing 15 feet behind the baseline was a requirement to be a baseliner.
In my stupidity I always thought that Andre A. was a baseliner also.
And yes...Federer has turned into a baseliner as well.
He CAN and WILL play some all-court tennis once in a while, but for God's sake, he won't even serve and volley @ Wimbledon or the US Open.
He is an aggressive baseliner 99 % of the time.
LENDL and VILANDER who were considered baseliners may have actually attacked the net more than Federer on average...so let's move on, this argument is pointless.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
I didn't know standing 15 feet behind the baseline was a requirement to be a baseliner.
Yet you only brought up Nadal in your post:
I
So...let me get this straight...Dent would beat Nadal because Nadal is a baseliner, but he will not get the chance to play Nadal because he will get owned by Federer ... but only because Federer is actually NOT a baseliner...and he will "steal" the net away from Dent.


In my stupidity I always thought that Andre A. was a baseliner also.

Yes, and Sampras was a serve and volleyer and beat Agassi EVERY SINGLE TIME at the US Open and at Wimbledon, and that was a lot of times.

0d1n
03-31-2009, 02:12 PM
One more thing. Whoever is stating that Tsonga beat Nadal at the AO because he "S&V-ed" didn't actually watch the match.
Tsonga's visits to the net were mostly behind powerful and well placed approach shots. He played some inspired all court tennis, and YES that IS the ideal way to play even on today's slower surfaces.
I do agree juniors today don't focus enough on developing an all-court game.
This is most likely due to the coaches-parents. Parents expect results quickly (@ the junior level).
In order to get results quickly ... coaches teach consistency from the baseline because that WORKS at the junior level and it's easier to do (requires less brain) than a TRUE all court game.
However ... that is in no way proof, or even comes close to being proof of the fact that a S&V player will beat a baseline player "most of the time", or even "often".
There are no arguments to sustain that theory.
All court game will work in any era. All out attack (Rafter style) is MUCH less likely to work today than it was in the 90's.

stormholloway
03-31-2009, 02:15 PM
Who was the only guy that Borg EVER lost to at the French Open?

Adriano Panatta, a serve and volleyer. And he beat Borg, not once, but TWICE at the French!

So even the greatest clay court player of all time can be beaten on red clay by a serve and volleyer, and not even a great one at that.

And wouldn't you agree that Mats Wilander was a pretty good clay court player? I mean he did win the French Open 3 times, right? But guess who beat him easily in straight sets in a French Open final? Yup, Yannick Noah, a serve and volleyer.

BTW, lots of other serve and volleyers have won the French Open or got to the finals or at least the semis. But you don't really want me to list them, right?

Excellent points. And don't forget McEnroe. He gave Borg a hell of a time (not at the French however).

0d1n
03-31-2009, 02:15 PM
....................
Yes, and Sampras was a serve and volleyer and beat Agassi EVERY SINGLE TIME at the US Open and at Wimbledon, and that was a lot of times.

Because he was a one of a kind player and a much much better athlete than Agassi. Fast surfaces favor the better athlete/attacking player.
He also had a very good baseline game...well suited to faster surfaces.
If he would have met Agassi @ the French he would have lost every single time.
Edit...
Which he did once I think @ the French and multiple times at the Aussie. Let's face it...they have met more often on American type fast hard courts & grass which favored Sampras.
Clay or slow gritty Hardcourt (Aussie type) would favor a motivated Agassi every time.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 02:19 PM
Excellent points. And don't forget McEnroe. He gave Borg a hell of a time (not at the French however).
But McEnroe did give Lendl (another baseliner) a hell of a time at the French.

And Edberg gave Chang a hell of a time in another French Open final.

Both McEnroe and Edberg should have won those finals as both were ahead.

swedechris
03-31-2009, 02:27 PM
yes they should have .. they had their chances , thats for sure. i do think borg would have mashed mcenroe to a pulp though at roland garros , had they played ..
borg was a MONSTER when in form ,on the dirt. Nadal is very very similar to him in many ways.

McNasty911
03-31-2009, 02:36 PM
he seriously needs to lose some weight. he's now as fast as serena.

Lol the only thing fat is her *** haha.

But dent is a pretty athletic guy so he'll drop the weight quick.

Wut if he wins Wimbledon lol.

john whilesmith
03-31-2009, 02:37 PM
coloskier Quote:

"You are trying to say that Kendrick, Fish, and Fed have as good a serve as Sampras????? ROFL!!!! Sampras did the one thing that Fed refuses to do, attack the service return. He only needed one break to win the set, that was his mindset, and Nadal would be toast unless he started taking Pete's serve on the baseline instead of 10 feet behind it. Nadal does not attack the service return, because NO ONE makes him do it, and it is very hard to do from 10 feet behind the baseline."


I didn't say that at all. Your comprehension skills are somewhat lacking. I merely re-used them as examples as they had previously been cited as examples.

kaiotic
03-31-2009, 02:38 PM
Of course it'll work. Just ask Pete Sampras.

His opponents knew he was coming in behind his serve but there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. The rules of the game state that you still have to return the serve back over the net. After that you're toast because you're still standing behind the baseline while the other guy is on top of the net where he can have his way with you. If you've ever played against a great serve and volleyer you'd know that it feels like you're being raped and ravaged. :shock:
ahahahha so true.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:05 PM
Of course it'll work. Just ask Pete Sampras.

His opponents knew he was coming in behind his serve but there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. The rules of the game state that you still have to return the serve back over the net. After that you're toast because you're still standing behind the baseline while the other guy is on top of the net where he can have his way with you. If you've ever played against a great serve and volleyer you'd know that it feels like you're being raped and ravaged. :shock:

Hey BP & edberg looks like the s&v got raped and ravaged??

Of course Fed is not a baseliner and Dent needs to loose weight right? :)

...and oh my prediction is 50% right as of the moment :)

hoodjem
03-31-2009, 04:14 PM
Of course it'll work. Just ask Pete Sampras.

His opponents knew he was coming in behind his serve but there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. The rules of the game state that you still have to return the serve back over the net. After that you're toast because you're still standing behind the baseline while the other guy is on top of the net where he can have his way with you. If you've ever played against a great serve and volleyer you'd know that it feels like you're being raped and ravaged.

There's only two things to do, and both are not at all easy:
1) pass
2) lob

Borg could do the former well against Mac, when he was really at the top of his game.

Offensive lobbing is almost unknown in today's men's game.

Most of today's B-bashers will hit as hard as they can straight at the net-rusher. Of course, because there are so few net-players in today's game, hardly anyone worries about any of these conditions.

Jimmyk459
03-31-2009, 04:15 PM
I was never a real fan of serve and volley. But watching him play federer is SO MUCH FUN! It really makes the game more interesting, especially because it isnt serve and volley all the time. He still stays back some on FEDDYS serve.

This is awesome,
-Jimmy

NoBadMojo
03-31-2009, 04:18 PM
But McEnroe did give Lendl (another baseliner) a hell of a time at the French.

And Edberg gave Chang a hell of a time in another French Open final.

Both McEnroe and Edberg should have won those finals as both were ahead.

You keep bringing up then..this is now..now is diff than then...things have changed

Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

This is really absurd. There really isnt the percentage in playing serve/volley as a steady diet anymore...if the odds would favour it, more players would do it..fed can do it..he knows it isnt the right ploy other than to mix things up a bit

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Hey BP & edberg looks like the s&v got raped and ravaged??

Of course Fed is not a baseliner and Dent needs to loose weight right? :)

...and oh my prediction is 50% right as of the moment :)
Hey, if Dent could have converted just one of those 8 or 9 break points he had on Federer in that one single game that went to like 11 deuces, things could have turned out VERY differently. :)

Ronaldo
03-31-2009, 04:21 PM
Dent looks Taylor-made for Roger, down a break.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:23 PM
Hey, if Dent could have converted just one of those 8 or 9 break points he had on Federer in that one single game that went to like 11 deuces, things could have turned out VERY differently. :)

suuuuureee! ;)

hoodjem
03-31-2009, 04:31 PM
Boris is thinking "I can play better than this."

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Hey, if Dent could have converted just one of those 8 or 9 break points he had on Federer in that one single game that went to like 11 deuces, things could have turned out VERY differently. :)

If Fed wasn't goofing around his OH my predictions is right on the money! :(

DNShade
03-31-2009, 04:34 PM
You keep bringing up then..this is now..now is diff than then...things have changed

Originally Posted by BreakPoint View Post
I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

This is really absurd. There really isnt the percentage in playing serve/volley as a steady diet anymore...if the odds would favour it, more players would do it..fed can do it..he knows it isnt the right ploy other than to mix things up a bit

You are wrong here. Todays players just don't know how to volley - let along s&v right now. This is just plain fact. It's the style of play the players have learned from juniors on. Bang it from the baseline. That's why most of the players play the same. Don't give me this crap about s&v not being able to work in todays game or because of the strings etc. That is just BS.

Just wait. Some kid will come along who loved Sampras or Becker or McEnroe's style and change the game back to attacking net play just like Rafa has done with his style. Styles come and go. Right now the tour is ripe for a strong s&v player to come along and shake things up. The players don't know how to play against them.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:36 PM
Bp

99.9% accurate! :)

hoodjem
03-31-2009, 04:36 PM
Fed is thinking "Gawd, I played like crap."

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:39 PM
Now who says serve and volley doesn't work in today's game?

I've always maintained here that a good serve and volleyer will beat a good baseliner almost every time.

Nadal should pray he never has to play Taylor Dent. :shock:

If Nadal plays Dent...oh boy! I don't want to know.

6-0,2-retired Nadal

King of Aces
03-31-2009, 04:47 PM
Hey, if Dent could have converted just one of those 8 or 9 break points he had on Federer in that one single game that went to like 11 deuces, things could have turned out VERY differently. :)

Lets get this translated in the TTW dictionary:



With this dictionary, I just tried to summarize some TTW's popular opinions, it's not like I'm expressing my own opinions here.

Of course this is an Open Source dictionary, so feel free to make your own additions if you want to.

...................

Now letís start with some basic concepts:



Would, should, could:
~adverb
1. Reality.
2. Strongest possible argument.


Serve and Volley
~verb/noun
1. Best and most effective, reliable and powerful style of tennis, no matter if a S&V player didnít win a challenger for 700 years.
2. Real tennis. Non S&V tennis needs to be renamed something else (teeNeZ, te@n@s, Pong).

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:48 PM
Respect to Mr. Dent though for playing his heart out. It was just not enough against Fed. But overall a good tournament for Dent.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 04:50 PM
Lets get this translated in the TTW dictionary:

:) u da man!

Rabbit
03-31-2009, 04:54 PM
You are wrong here. Todays players just don't know how to volley - let along s&v right now. This is just plain fact. It's the style of play the players have learned from juniors on. Bang it from the baseline. That's why most of the players play the same. Don't give me this crap about s&v not being able to work in todays game or because of the strings etc. That is just BS.

Just wait. Some kid will come along who loved Sampras or Becker or McEnroe's style and change the game back to attacking net play just like Rafa has done with his style. Styles come and go. Right now the tour is ripe for a strong s&v player to come along and shake things up. The players don't know how to play against them.

I agree to a large extent. Tactically, today's players don't know anything about inside the baseline to the service line. They try to hit winners from that position rather than a proper approach. Roddick, in particular, just can't seem to get it through his head that a crosscourt approach is a losing proposition the majority of the time.

I also agree that players today don't learn to volley. They focus on what wins for them and don't expand or grow as players. They aren't given the time, or they don't take the opportunity, to round their games properly before hitting the pro tour.

On the other hand, volleying against some of these guys would be a challenge to any player. Nads' balls break up and down and sideways there's so much spin on them. It would be like trying to volley a whiffle ball.

I also agree that today's frames give the returner an unfair advantage; or puts the returner on more equal footing depending on your view point.

Ronaldo
03-31-2009, 05:17 PM
Really confused by not learning to volley. Shirley they play doubles, gotta volley then. Cannot just stay back.

DNShade
03-31-2009, 05:24 PM
I agree to a large extent. Tactically, today's players don't know anything about inside the baseline to the service line. They try to hit winners from that position rather than a proper approach. Roddick, in particular, just can't seem to get it through his head that a crosscourt approach is a losing proposition the majority of the time.

I also agree that players today don't learn to volley. They focus on what wins for them and don't expand or grow as players. They aren't given the time, or they don't take the opportunity, to round their games properly before hitting the pro tour.

On the other hand, volleying against some of these guys would be a challenge to any player. Nads' balls break up and down and sideways there's so much spin on them. It would be like trying to volley a whiffle ball.

I also agree that today's frames give the returner an unfair advantage; or puts the returner on more equal footing depending on your view point.

Well put. The style and equipment has changed the weight of the ball for sure - but the s&v style can still be a serious winning strategy. Just have to get used to it and have the soft hands required to handle the heavy ball from Nadal and the others. It's not as hard as people make it out to be sometimes. (Hopefully I'll be able to report back to you guys on volleying his shots first hand here soon - maybe I'll change my tune...)

And the return has become a bigger weapon - so the server needs to serve correctly for today's s&v style. Construct the point by going for the two shot - a well placed serve that dictates the return and sets up the volley rather than just going for the huge serve that is back to the server before they can get two feet inside the baseline.

It's all about some player committing to they style and going for it. And if it works - then we'll see all kinds of s&v player and everyone will be complaining about that...

DNShade
03-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Shirley they play doubles, gotta volley then. Cannot just stay back.

Watch some of the dubs at Div. 1 , David cup, ATP events etc...you'll see a lot of one up one back or both back, and pretty hideous volley skills. Crazy stuff. I won't even talk about the WTA here.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 05:48 PM
You are wrong here. Todays players just don't know how to volley - let along s&v right now. This is just plain fact. It's the style of play the players have learned from juniors on. Bang it from the baseline. That's why most of the players play the same. Don't give me this crap about s&v not being able to work in todays game or because of the strings etc. That is just BS.

Just wait. Some kid will come along who loved Sampras or Becker or McEnroe's style and change the game back to attacking net play just like Rafa has done with his style. Styles come and go. Right now the tour is ripe for a strong s&v player to come along and shake things up. The players don't know how to play against them.


oh yeah?...we've seen this on today's(Fed/Dent) match.

...and the kids name is DNDshade. Welcome to earth man!

Josherer
03-31-2009, 06:05 PM
And it's sad becuase IMO he would be able to play at an even higher level if his back was completley healed.

edberg505
03-31-2009, 06:11 PM
[/COLOR][/B]

oh yeah?...we've seen this on today's(Fed/Dent) match.

...and the kids name is DNDshade. Welcome to earth man!

Actually there was a very talented serve and volleying junior that played in the finals of the US Open juniors last year. He's playing for the Univ. of Mississippi right now. Pretty darn good.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 06:18 PM
And it's sad becuase IMO he would be able to play at an even higher level if his back was completley healed.

I think his back injury is completely healed otherwise he woudn't be playing the tour. I think it has to do a lot with his conditioning and style of play.

shadows
03-31-2009, 06:26 PM
I think his back injury is completely healed otherwise he woudn't be playing the tour. I think it has to do a lot with his conditioning and style of play.

Agree. He's out of shape and lacks high level matches, if he gets back in shape and manages to play regular high level tennis then I think he's got a decent shot of getting back into the top 50.

GameSampras
03-31-2009, 06:33 PM
Someone is going through the miami draw pretty well... Has had some good results... even beat Robredo...

Any future for the guy?

No future at all. At least not as a top guy in the game of tennis. Im sorry. Out of shape due to injuries or not. Hes pretty good but not great. A decent player. Top 40-50 is certainly reasonable though for Dent

DNShade
03-31-2009, 06:43 PM
[/COLOR][/B]

oh yeah?...we've seen this on today's(Fed/Dent) match.

...and the kids name is DNDshade. Welcome to earth man!

Dude...Take it easy. The guy hasn't played in like two years and is coming off major health problems. And I never said Taylor was at the level of great S&V players even at his best. But I was out at UCLA with him in December and he was hitting really nicely so it's great to see him doing well here.

Why do people out here get so hot over such idiotic things they have no control over? This is a just a discussion about playing style in tennis.

And if Taylor was a little more match tough, I think he would've had a nice shot at taking it today. And I like Fed - was nice to see him adapting his style a bit out there today as well. Perhaps this will get him thinking too about getting his a** into net and putting pressure on the other guy rather than reacting. He has been much to passive in all aspects of his game for quite a while.

I mean who wouldn't want to see a real s&v player taking it to Nadal. Who cares who wins - tennis and it's fans would win.

NoBadMojo
03-31-2009, 07:29 PM
You are wrong here. Todays players just don't know how to volley - let along s&v right now. This is just plain fact. It's the style of play the players have learned from juniors on. Bang it from the baseline. That's why most of the players play the same. Don't give me this crap about s&v not being able to work in todays game or because of the strings etc. That is just BS.

Just wait. Some kid will come along who loved Sampras or Becker or McEnroe's style and change the game back to attacking net play just like Rafa has done with his style. Styles come and go. Right now the tour is ripe for a strong s&v player to come along and shake things up. The players don't know how to play against them.

oic....according to you some day a serve and volley messiah will appear rising from the baseline ashes and things will go back to the 80's again.

Rafa didnt invent his playing style by the way...others before him did..he just happens to be the best at it in addition to playing lefthanded.

There is nothing indicating a return to serve/volley....too high risk...the only guys who do that are the ones who have no chance by staying back...and there arent very many of those out there anymore either

DNShade
03-31-2009, 07:56 PM
We'll just wait and see. There are starting to be a few sparks of this already happening in the juniors...It will happen. Most of players today are very open to being attacked so it's a natural swing back and forth.

It's not going to come from a player who can't win from the baseline - it's going to come from one who knows it's the best way throw the current players off and who wants to win attacking and coming in and has been working towards that goal.

The players today are afraid of being passed at net. They come in, get passed and go - oh well - enough of that. You know how many times Becker, McEneroe, Edberg, Sampras etc would get passed in a match? Tons. That's the game. You just say nice shot...but can you do it again? And again? And again? It's that constant pressure that wears down the guy on the other side of the net.

And no, no one has really played quite like Nadal - taking the ping-pong approach of dictating with hyper-exaggerated swings and huge spin to create angles and dictate points. He and his uncle put their stamp on the game. Someone else will come along and do the same with a refined style of net attacking play.

betovanbuuren
03-31-2009, 07:58 PM
Nice job for dent, he did all he could

King of Aces
03-31-2009, 08:39 PM
oic....according to you some day a serve and volley messiah will appear rising from the baseline ashes and things will go back to the 80's again.

r

OMG!!!! That's too funny.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 08:42 PM
Dude...Take it easy. The guy hasn't played in like two years and is coming off major health problems. And I never said Taylor was at the level of great S&V players even at his best. But I was out at UCLA with him in December and he was hitting really nicely so it's great to see him doing well here.

Why do people out here get so hot over such idiotic things they have no control over? This is a just a discussion about playing style in tennis.

And if Taylor was a little more match tough, I think he would've had a nice shot at taking it today. And I like Fed - was nice to see him adapting his style a bit out there today as well. Perhaps this will get him thinking too about getting his a** into net and putting pressure on the other guy rather than reacting. He has been much to passive in all aspects of his game for quite a while.

I mean who wouldn't want to see a real s&v player taking it to Nadal. Who cares who wins - tennis and it's fans would win.

Real(Pure/100%) S&V playing style is inadequate in today's tennis. I don't think we would see another #1 or even in the top 3 real s&v player.

Real S&V player taking it to Nadal is a wishful thinking. It would be very hard for me to see someone get passed a million times to be honest.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 08:46 PM
We'll just wait and see. There are starting to be a few sparks of this already happening in the juniors...It will happen. Most of players today are very open to being attacked so it's a natural swing back and forth.

It's not going to come from a player who can't win from the baseline - it's going to come from one who knows it's the best way throw the current players off and who wants to win attacking and coming in and has been working towards that goal.

The players today are afraid of being passed at net. They come in, get passed and go - oh well - enough of that. You know how many times Becker, McEneroe, Edberg, Sampras etc would get passed in a match? Tons. That's the game. You just say nice shot...but can you do it again? And again? And again? It's that constant pressure that wears down the guy on the other side of the net.

And no, no one has really played quite like Nadal - taking the ping-pong approach of dictating with hyper-exaggerated swings and huge spin to create angles and dictate points. He and his uncle put their stamp on the game. Someone else will come along and do the same with a refined style of net attacking play.
I totally agree! Excellent post! :)

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 08:50 PM
[/color]

Real(Pure/100%) S&V playing style is inadequate in today's tennis. I don't think we would see another #1 or even in the top 3 real s&v player.

Real S&V player taking it to Nadal is a wishful thinking. It would be very hard for me to see someone get passed a million times to be honest.
How many times have you ever seen Nadal pass someone with his return of serve? Like never?

Dent has a huge first serve. There's no way Nadal could be offensive with his returns standing 15 feet back from the baseline.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 09:28 PM
How many times have you ever seen Nadal pass someone with his return of serve? Like never?

Dent has a huge first serve. There's no way Nadal could be offensive with his returns standing 15 feet back from the baseline.

The answer to your question is never. Why? because he don't have to or even at any level don't have to hit winners off return of serve. Do you play seniors in your club?...at that level you can hit winners EVERY return of serve.

How do you like my predictions by the way? :)

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 09:38 PM
How many times have you ever seen Nadal pass someone with his return of serve? Like never?

Dent has a huge first serve. There's no way Nadal could be offensive with his returns standing 15 feet back from the baseline.

Fed's serve is better overall compared to Dent's to say the least. We all know(except you) how Nadal handles Fed's serve.

edberg505
03-31-2009, 09:43 PM
[/COLOR]

Real(Pure/100%) S&V playing style is inadequate in today's tennis. I don't think we would see another #1 or even in the top 3 real s&v player.

Real S&V player taking it to Nadal is a wishful thinking. It would be very hard for me to see someone get passed a million times to be honest.

Well then I guess you would be ok watching the Mahut vs. Nadal match at Queen's Club in 2007. ;)

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 09:49 PM
Well then I guess you would be ok watching the Mahut vs. Nadal match at Queen's Club in 2007. ;)

again...:)

You're going to have a match like this once every 100 years. Sampras lost to George Bastl 145th ranked player. Are you going to say now the key to beating Sampras is by playing like G. Bastl?

edberg505
03-31-2009, 09:50 PM
again...:)

You're going to have a match like this once every 100 years. Sampras lost to George Bastl 145th ranked player. Are you going to say now the key to beating Sampras is by playing like G. Bastl?

Well then you should also check out the Guccione match. The Gooch was smothering him. He won the first and then Nadal called it quits.

SaintClaires
03-31-2009, 09:51 PM
Edited


10 Char

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 10:02 PM
Well then you should also check out the Guccione match. The Gooch was smothering him. He won the first and then Nadal called it quits.

What did he do to Nadal? Hit him with his racquet or something? You should send me a copy of that match.

edberg505
03-31-2009, 10:11 PM
What did he do to Nadal? Hit him with his racquet or something? You should send me a copy of that match.

I've been wanting a copy of that match for a while. He's a big serving and volleying lefty. I saw some highlights. He was serving big and coming in on everything. I don't know why he hasn't broken through yet. His groundies really need some work though and that may be the biggest problem for him.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 10:14 PM
Make Dent look like a fool? Hmm, I dunno about that. Dent has a really big serve so it surely won't be a cake walk. I'm actually looking forward to the Dent vs. Federer match up. I've been waiting for that one since 2004 or so. Glad I finally get a chance to see it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to see him play Nadal once or twice too.

you really don't know or have a clue. one thing you're right though it wasn't a cake walk it was an ice walk.

... and oh you don't want to see Nadal/Dent matchup. you can't be too serious.

how do you like my prediction for that match?(Fed/Dent) ;) i can hear crickets

edberg505
03-31-2009, 10:17 PM
you really don't know or have a clue. one thing you're right though it wasn't a cake walk it was an ice walk.

how do you like my prediction for that match? ;) i can hear crickets

What are you talking about? He didn't play Nadal. And that match today wasn't a cake walk. Ask Roger how easy he had it. And I have no idea what prediction you are talking about.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 10:27 PM
What are you talking about? He didn't play Nadal. And that match today wasn't a cake walk. Ask Roger how easy he had it. And I have no idea what prediction you are talking about.

ooHHH he did not :)

i can't remember i said cake walk. CAKE---ICE hmmm the spelling is not close at all.

never mind the prediction that was for your buddy breakpoint ;)

edberg505
03-31-2009, 10:29 PM
ooHHH he did not :)

i can't remember i said cake walk. CAKE---ICE hmmm the spelling is not close at all.

never mind the prediction that was for your buddy breakpoint ;)

I still don't know what you are talking about. I was talking about a potential match up of Dent vs. Nadal. I was talking about that match not being a cake walk.

Tennis_Bum
03-31-2009, 10:31 PM
How many times have you ever seen Nadal pass someone with his return of serve? Like never?

Dent has a huge first serve. There's no way Nadal could be offensive with his returns standing 15 feet back from the baseline.

Good point only if Dent or other who can serve a high percentage of 1st serve, say 80% with spin and speed and placement. That's too tough to ask from anyone. So the pressure is already from the start.

As far as I know, no one can serve like that consistently. That's insane. But if Dent can serve a high percentage first serve, he has a good chance against most people, Nadal included.

But I don't think Dent can serve that high percentage of first serve. That would make an exciting tennis match. Today was pretty good against Fed, but Dent ran out of gas.

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 10:32 PM
I've been wanting a copy of that match for a while. He's a big serving and volleying lefty. I saw some highlights. He was serving big and coming in on everything. I don't know why he hasn't broken through yet. His groundies really need some work though and that may be the biggest problem for him.

because he was serving and coming in ON EVERYTHING! duh

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 10:46 PM
I still don't know what you are talking about. I was talking about a potential match up of Dent vs. Nadal. I was talking about that match not being a cake walk.

I stand corrected. My mistake.

It would be easier than a cake walk though. I hope your dream matchup will happen. Remember though Nadal's bh is more potent than Fed's. You know what that means> 60-90 winners

it's ugly :cry:

edberg505
03-31-2009, 10:52 PM
[/COLOR]
I stand corrected. My mistake.

It would be easier than a cake walk though. I hope your dream matchup will happen. Remember though Nadal's bh is more potent than Fed's. You know what that means> 60-90 winners

it's ugly :cry:

You wanna get in on the bet too? I bet one guy here, should they meet that Dent will get more than 4 games. This guy says he won't get any more than 4 games. Wanna join in?

barukinzs
03-31-2009, 11:10 PM
You wanna get in on the bet too? I bet one guy here, should they meet that Dent will get more than 4 games. This guy says he won't get any more than 4 games. Wanna join in?


I have a better deal! Dent will not get any more than 3 games per set and your $1 will win you a trip to planet earth!

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 11:29 PM
The answer to your question is never. Why? because he don't have to or even at any level don't have to hit winners off return of serve. Do you play seniors in your club?...at that level you can hit winners EVERY return of serve.

How do you like my predictions by the way? :)
Well, then Nadal has no chance since a good serve and volleyer doesn't give you a chance at a second pass. Either you pass him on the return or the next ball is totally out of your reach. No, not even Nadal could run them down.

BreakPoint
03-31-2009, 11:32 PM
Fed's serve is better overall compared to Dent's to say the least. We all know(except you) how Nadal handles Fed's serve.
Yeah, right. When have you ever seen Federer hit a serve over 140mph? Like never?

Nadal was having lots of trouble with even Wawrinka's serve tonight and Dent serves even bigger than Wawrinka. :shock:

Tempest344
03-31-2009, 11:41 PM
Dent's serve is massive

seffina
03-31-2009, 11:42 PM
From Dent's postmatch comments:
Q. Do you feel that you're showing us some kind of tennis we've missed for so long?
TAYLOR DENT: Oh, well, I hope so. Again, I feel like I've got so long to go as far as execution level, as well. It's a different taste. You don't see too many guys chipping charging second serves.
I don't know, I felt like maybe I showed a little bit of vulnerability in Roger out there. He didn't really seem to like me doing chipping and charging those second serves very much.
And, you know, it's good to see a little bit of variety. Obviously you're not going to see that too much on the clay court season coming up. But on the hard courts and the grass, you know, it's probably fun for everybody to watch.
That's the No. 1 thing I get said to me after a match: God, it's so exciting watching you play.Heh. He's very self aware.

If he met at Rafa at Queens, he could win. It's the fastest grass currently and in a best of three, it doesn't give Rafa quite so much time to make adjustments. Wimbledon would be tough for him because of the best of five, slower surface, and just general pressure.

The-Champ
03-31-2009, 11:59 PM
Well then I guess you would be ok watching the Mahut vs. Nadal match at Queen's Club in 2007. ;)


Why not watch nadal vs henman in 2006. At least they played twice :)

edberg505
04-01-2009, 12:23 AM
Why not watch nadal vs henman in 2006. At least they played twice :)

Yeah, and even Henman got more than 4 games, and he's old. LOL.

BreakPoint
04-01-2009, 12:23 AM
Why not watch nadal vs henman in 2006. At least they played twice :)
Henman was already well past his prime when he played Nadal and Henman never had a big serve like Dent does. Not even close to it.

The-Champ
04-01-2009, 12:28 AM
Yeah, and even Henman got more than 4 games, and he's old. LOL.


who cares if he won more than 4 games...he lost. Nadal is better today than in 2006, it's not even close.

The-Champ
04-01-2009, 12:33 AM
Henman was already well past his prime when he played Nadal and Henman never had a big serve like Dent does. Not even close to it.


But Henman is far more accomplished than Dent. Hell, Dent has a more powerful serve than Johnny Mac, but he will never achieve the same status.


Henman should've killed all those loopy returns, why didn't he?

edberg505
04-01-2009, 01:28 AM
who cares if he won more than 4 games...he lost. Nadal is better today than in 2006, it's not even close.

Well, you got me there. Nadal is the undisputed GOAT. He'll never lose to a serve and volleyer. In fact he'll never lose another match the rest of the year. What was I thinking?

BreakPoint
04-01-2009, 01:35 AM
But Henman is far more accomplished than Dent. Hell, Dent has a more powerful serve than Johnny Mac, but he will never achieve the same status.


Henman should've killed all those loopy returns, why didn't he?
Because Nadal didn't have to stand 15 feet behind the baseline to receive Henman's mediocre serve.

Tennis is all about positioning.

The-Champ
04-01-2009, 01:40 AM
Well, you got me there. Nadal is the undisputed GOAT. He'll never lose to a serve and volleyer. In fact he'll never lose another match the rest of the year. What was I thinking?


I never said Nadal would beat every s&volleyer. What the hell is wrong with you? you can say stich would triple bagel nadal at french or anywhere, I don't freakin' care.

The-Champ
04-01-2009, 01:47 AM
Because Nadal didn't have to stand 15 feet behind the baseline to receive Henman's mediocre serve.

Tennis is all about positioning.


Actually he did. Did you watch the match?


If Henman had such mediocre serve then Agassi would've triple bageled him each time they played, which had not been the case. I know Hewitt owned Henman big time, but they were not easy matches and in fact the only time Henman beat Hewitt was the same year Nadal thumped him in Dubai.

There's only one thing I would agree with and that is I miss serve and volley tennis, because that will make today's players adjust their games a bit.

aldeayeah
04-01-2009, 01:48 AM
Yeah, right. When have you ever seen Federer hit a serve over 140mph? Like never?

Nadal was having lots of trouble with even Wawrinka's serve tonight and Dent serves even bigger than Wawrinka. :shock:
On the other hand, he owned Roddick in IW. Andy was actually serving nice, but Nadal sliced them all back and deep and passed him consistently when he tried S&V.

But it looks like Dent can volley fairly better than Roddick.

I'd like to see Nadal - Dent. I think it'd be very one-sided in Nadal's favor, but it could be fun.

edberg505
04-01-2009, 01:49 AM
I never said Nadal would beat every s&volleyer. What the hell is wrong with you? you can say stich would triple bagel nadal at french or anywhere, I don't freakin' care.

Nah, I'm sold. He's the best ever. I don't even see why his opponents bother to show up for the match. LOL. Look, Nadal is a great player, there's no denying that. I'm just kinda sick of people not giving other players credit. Dent may not be #1 in the world, a slam champion, or even have a master's shield, but he's pretty darn good. I still keep remembering what one guy said on here and it was right on point. "It must be so cool to be Nadal and Federer fans. They're favourite martial arts person is probably Bruce Lee, favourite basketball player is Michael Jordan, and favourite golfer is Tiger Woods". It's easy to be a fan of someone when their winning everything in sight.

fluffy Beaver
04-01-2009, 01:54 AM
On the other hand, he owned Roddick in IW. Andy was actually serving nice, but Nadal sliced them all back and deep and passed him consistently when he tried S&V.

But it looks like Dent can volley fairly better than Roddick.

I'd like to see Nadal - Dent. I think it'd be very one-sided in Nadal's favor, but it could be fun.

Do people like you even give anything thought in your post?

Dent only volleys fairly better than Roddick? his game is based on his volleys. Not only that of course Roddick gets passed when he makes his way to the net, who doesn't pass Roddick (no offense to Roddick). And Roddick approaches much more to the net while Dent does actual S/V, and Roddick "tries" to serve and volley, it's just not his game compared to Dent.

The-Champ
04-01-2009, 02:04 AM
Nah, I'm sold. He's the best ever. I don't even see why his opponents bother to show up for the match. LOL. Look, Nadal is a great player, there's no denying that. I'm just kinda sick of people not giving other players credit. Dent may not be #1 in the world, a slam champion, or even have a master's shield, but he's pretty darn good. I still keep remembering what one guy said on here and it was right on point. "It must be so cool to be Nadal and Federer fans. They're favourite martial arts person is probably Bruce Lee, favourite basketball player is Michael Jordan, and favourite golfer is Tiger Woods". It's easy to be a fan of someone when their winning everything in sight.



I have tons of respect for Taylor's game. The first time I saw it, i actually thought it was more intimidating than Pete's, simply because he served bigger than Sampras. I'm a Nadal fan but Taylor at his very best he would've beaten Rafa at his very best a couple of times. I know Hewitt totally owned Dent, but those were not easy matches and Hewitt looked frustrated most of the times they played.

Too bad though, Dent is always injured. He would've accomplished more and certainly could have been a major contender at the slams, especially today when players are not accostumed to playing against s&V game.


You have to admit though that most Nadal haters in here are just as obsessed and believe a s&v would triple bagel Nadal everywhere. Like Nadal has never touched a racket before or as if Nadal has never stood on a tennis court.

edberg505
04-01-2009, 02:07 AM
Do people like you even give anything thought in your post?

Dent only volleys fairly better than Roddick? his game is based on his volleys. Not only that of course Roddick gets passed when he makes his way to the net, who doesn't pass Roddick (no offense to Roddick). And Roddick approaches much more to the net while Dent does actual S/V, and Roddick "tries" to serve and volley, it's just not his game compared to Dent.

LOL, yeah that was funny. I'm not sure there is even a better volleyer Dent on the tour right now and he's just coming back. I would probably say Mahut but he's been injured lately. I'd put Tsonga up there too. But I would not even mention Roddick and Dent in the same breath when talking about volleying.

aldeayeah
04-01-2009, 02:55 AM
Well, I say what I saw yesterday. He got passed big time and netted several easy volleys. He's not the second coming of Sampras.

If that's the best volleyer on the tour, he had a really bad day.

King of Aces
04-01-2009, 04:19 AM
Yeah, right. When have you ever seen Federer hit a serve over 140mph? Like never?

Nadal was having lots of trouble with even Wawrinka's serve tonight and Dent serves even bigger than Wawrinka. :shock:

Dent is a bit like Santoro....

They are both fun to watch and sometimes get good results...... But they never really have any chance to win a grandslam in singles . ( santoro actually did quite well I. Doubles !!).

Rabbit
04-01-2009, 05:32 AM
Well put. The style and equipment has changed the weight of the ball for sure - but the s&v style can still be a serious winning strategy.

Yes, it can. This was evidenced by Sampras playing Federer in their exhibitions. A true attacking style of play ala Sampras has been gone long enough that today's players would have adjustments to make for sure.

Actually there was a very talented serve and volleying junior that played in the finals of the US Open juniors last year. He's playing for the Univ. of Mississippi right now. Pretty darn good.

You are talking about Devon Britton(?). Yep...when he was 16 I was asked to play him in a 16-point match. I think I won 2 points.... :)

Yeah, right. When have you ever seen Federer hit a serve over 140mph? Like never?

Nadal was having lots of trouble with even Wawrinka's serve tonight and Dent serves even bigger than Wawrinka. :shock:

I think the key to a successful serve and vollyer's serve is not the sheer speed, but the weight and how much they vary it. Three of the best S/V players of all time, John McEnroe, Stefan Edberg, and Pat Rafter all had medium paced serves, but they were able to vary them and move them around. IMO, Edberg and Rafter's serves were very similar. McEnroe's was by far the most varied, and he exploited the corners more.

I think today's guys try for too big a serve. They let their serve out run them. In other words, they serve so fast that they don't have time to get to net to hit a decent volley.

Henman was already well past his prime when he played Nadal and Henman never had a big serve like Dent does. Not even close to it.

See the above point. I think that was one reason Henman did so well as a S/V player. His serve kept his opponent off balance and set up his first volley. S/V players, by definition are two shot guys. They serve and volley. The serve then sets up the volley. A guy like Becker had a big enough serve that he could win the point outright and while he employed the tactic, I don't consider him a true S/V player.

Dent is a bit like Santoro....

They are both fun to watch and sometimes get good results...... But they never really have any chance to win a grandslam in singles . ( santoro actually did quite well I. Doubles !!).

I agree. I love to watch Dent's style of play. I think he ran into too good a player yesterday, but it was great to for once in a decade see two guys at net at the same time when they weren't shaking hands!

fastdunn
04-01-2009, 10:34 AM
I think today's guys try for too big a serve. They let their serve out run them. In other words, they serve so fast that they don't have time to get to net to hit a decent volley.


yeah but the forehand changed. Modern forehand has now straight swing that can point and shoot to the exact target. Slow/bouncy surfaces and heavy/bigger ball gives ample time to set up the modern forehand.

But I think modern forehand works best when you have time to plant your foot. It is not the best shot to hit it on the run. If you look at Federer's and Nadal's forehand, you will notice their forehands get weaker when hit on the run.

IMHO, the surfaces/balls/equipment induced modern forehand. IMHO. if we want to see some more varieties, we will need to change this conditions.

Ripster
04-01-2009, 12:11 PM
LOL, yeah that was funny. I'm not sure there is even a better volleyer Dent on the tour right now and he's just coming back. I would probably say Mahut but he's been injured lately. I'd put Tsonga up there too. But I would not even mention Roddick and Dent in the same breath when talking about volleying.

You forget about the ladies man Radek Stepanek.

edberg505
04-01-2009, 12:59 PM
You are talking about Devon Britton(?). Yep...when he was 16 I was asked to play him in a 16-point match. I think I won 2 points.... :)

Oh, so you've played Devin before? Very cool. He's without a doubt the most talented player our state has ever produced. I've been meaning to get back to Mississippi and actually catch him hitting at Bridges or something but wasn't able to. I know he did a fair amount of training down in FL. Where did you hit with him?

Rabbit
04-02-2009, 08:10 AM
Oh, so you've played Devin before? Very cool. He's without a doubt the most talented player our state has ever produced. I've been meaning to get back to Mississippi and actually catch him hitting at Bridges or something but wasn't able to. I know he did a fair amount of training down in FL. Where did you hit with him?

PB, he was still in high school at the time..... :)

I did see where he has been losing some matches at UM though....speaks volumes as to the level of competition...

I don't know, Earl Hassler was a pretty good player as well...just wasn't intereted in pursuing...

AndrewD
04-10-2009, 03:23 AM
I think the key to a successful serve and vollyer's serve is not the sheer speed, but the weight and how much they vary it. Three of the best S/V players of all time, John McEnroe, Stefan Edberg, and Pat Rafter all had medium paced serves, but they were able to vary them and move them around. IMO, Edberg and Rafter's serves were very similar. McEnroe's was by far the most varied, and he exploited the corners more.

I think today's guys try for too big a serve. They let their serve out run them. In other words, they serve so fast that they don't have time to get to net to hit a decent volley.

Exactly!

It's called serve-and-volley because you serve in order to set up your volley not because you hit the serve as hard as possible then volley anything that might come back. That's brainless tennis but, sadly, it seems to be what today's players specialise in.

Perhaps one of their problems is that they don't play enough doubles. The maxim of doubles is to get your first serve in and place it well enough to set up your first volley (or intercept for partner). In order to do that you put away the bombs and serve at only about 85% capacity.

In the Dent match I was also struck by Dent's use of the slider wide out to Federer's forehand. Most of today's players will bomb the first one flattish (seems mainly down the middle) and give no thought to cutting it fine or swinging it into the body of the receiver. Their lack of variety makes it easier to return their serves. You pretty much know where it's going and, because they don't move the ball around very much, they can't move you off your line.

Unfortunately, Dent didn't make enough first serves. I don't think he would have won but if he'd been able to push his first serve percentage up to around 75% I think he could have done more damage.

Leublu tennis
04-10-2009, 03:37 AM
Exactly!

It's called serve-and-volley because you serve in order to set up your volley not because you hit the serve as hard as possible then volley anything that might come back. That's brainless tennis but, sadly, it seems to be what today's players specialise in.

Perhaps one of their problems is that they don't play enough doubles. The maxim of doubles is to get your first serve in and place it well enough to set up your first volley (or intercept for partner). In order to do that you put away the bombs and serve at only about 85% capacity.

Boy, I sure agree with you there. Federer was an excellent doubles player. Has 8 titles and, until he got into top 10, he was ranked in the 20s in doubles. Thats very, very good. Nadal is an excellent doubles player. Has 5 titles. Djokovic needs to play doubles. It would do him a world of good. He is still young and can improve his game.

edberg505
04-10-2009, 03:46 AM
PB, he was still in high school at the time..... :)

I did see where he has been losing some matches at UM though....speaks volumes as to the level of competition...

I don't know, Earl Hassler was a pretty good player as well...just wasn't intereted in pursuing...

Are you from Mississippi? I haven't played at Bridges since I played juniors.

Rabbit
04-10-2009, 07:21 AM
Yes indeedy doody!

Rabbit
04-10-2009, 07:34 AM
Exactly!

It's called serve-and-volley because you serve in order to set up your volley not because you hit the serve as hard as possible then volley anything that might come back. That's brainless tennis but, sadly, it seems to be what today's players specialise in.

Perhaps one of their problems is that they don't play enough doubles. The maxim of doubles is to get your first serve in and place it well enough to set up your first volley (or intercept for partner). In order to do that you put away the bombs and serve at only about 85% capacity.

In the Dent match I was also struck by Dent's use of the slider wide out to Federer's forehand. Most of today's players will bomb the first one flattish (seems mainly down the middle) and give no thought to cutting it fine or swinging it into the body of the receiver. Their lack of variety makes it easier to return their serves. You pretty much know where it's going and, because they don't move the ball around very much, they can't move you off your line.

Unfortunately, Dent didn't make enough first serves. I don't think he would have won but if he'd been able to push his first serve percentage up to around 75% I think he could have done more damage.

Yes, it is a great thing to watch a player who knows how to serve, approach, and play net. Dent had, I think, two problems. The first was he just played a better player. The second was his conditioning. He just plain seemed to run out of gas. But, you are 100% right, Dent knew how to serve to effect the S/V tactic.

I greatly enjoyed watching both men approach net at the same time. There were occassions when one would hit a low ball, get a high reply, move in and put it away. You very seldom see that kind of play today.

edberg505
04-10-2009, 11:25 AM
Yes indeedy doody!

Cool, a fellow Mississippian. I'm from Indianola, MS. How long have you lived in MS?

Rabbit
04-10-2009, 12:46 PM
About 100 years... :)

AndrewD
04-11-2009, 04:41 AM
Yes, it is a great thing to watch a player who knows how to serve, approach, and play net. Dent had, I think, two problems. The first was he just played a better player. The second was his conditioning. He just plain seemed to run out of gas. But, you are 100% right, Dent knew how to serve to effect the S/V tactic.


Conditioning was always an issue for Dent - something his dad struggled with as well. No doubts the better man won. Even at his absolute best and on a really fast court I wouldn't have thought Dent could do any more than push it to three (and I wouldn't have expected that).

Did you also notice how well he used the 3/4's pace kick serve to get into the net before Fed could play his shot. That's a lesson in itself -especially to club players. Of course, part of Dent's problem is that he doesn't get in quickly enough because he's just too heavy-footed (like John Alexander - big serve, great volleys, feet of stone). Might have been more interesting if Dent had been quick like an Edberg, Rafter or McEnroe.

On a side note: I've got hold of a C10 (the 2008 version) and in the process of giving it an extensive trial. So far it feels significantly better than the t10 MP Gen II - a more solid hit, more controllable power, equally comfortable, much better at net and on serve. It also has more power than I was expecting. Despite using a terrible Wilson string (Sensation 16 - one of the worst Ive tried) I got good pop on all of my shots.
My question is - what strings did you enjoy most with the C10? I don't like mutis at all but have been happy with strings like Big Banger Alu Power and Alu Power rough in my POG Mid. Gut is obviously the perfect solution but we're moving into the rainy season here and I'd prefer to leave gut until later in the year.

obsessedtennisfandisorder
04-11-2009, 06:55 AM
A few things from my side...

Dent's huge serve a a definite plus point, he also appears to "get" the whole
art of approaching the net full stop, something roddick never had and fed
has forgotten.

But to be honest, as an S@V player, and llodra stephanek etc...these guys
are a few levels below sampras and rafter.....

It would be like comparing hrbaty and djokovic as baseliners.

First of all...dent game is so...RAW...he reminds me ALOT of SCud.

If as has been noted..he was quicker on his feet...he would be more dangerous....I haven't seen the match to see how he deals with lower volleys

With regards to the Hewitt vs dent matches, especially the 2001 3rd round match at wimby....lleyton loved playing s@v back then and hat flat returns(and
game) and specialised in hitting passive returns that dipped for a low volley.

After I watched that match...i thought this was all Scud Mark2

HewittTV just put the 2001 USopen final up on youtube...check it out.

Sure even edberg etc would cause headaches for todays players...but
once again I really feel the changed surfaces and strings etc has made
S@V VERY VERY HARD to Pull off.

Rabbit
04-11-2009, 07:26 AM
Conditioning was always an issue for Dent - something his dad struggled with as well. No doubts the better man won. Even at his absolute best and on a really fast court I wouldn't have thought Dent could do any more than push it to three (and I wouldn't have expected that).

I remember a story in Tennis Magazine about Phil Dent. In it they asked him why professional tennis. Dent replied that it was better than his previous job which was working in a sewing machine factory. :) I'd have to agree with Phil on that one.


Did you also notice how well he used the 3/4's pace kick serve to get into the net before Fed could play his shot. That's a lesson in itself -especially to club players. Of course, part of Dent's problem is that he doesn't get in quickly enough because he's just too heavy-footed (like John Alexander - big serve, great volleys, feet of stone). Might have been more interesting if Dent had been quick like an Edberg, Rafter or McEnroe.

Great observation. Yes, Dent will never be described as light of foot. But, he does move well up and back.


On a side note: I've got hold of a C10 (the 2008 version) and in the process of giving it an extensive trial. So far it feels significantly better than the t10 MP Gen II - a more solid hit, more controllable power, equally comfortable, much better at net and on serve. It also has more power than I was expecting. Despite using a terrible Wilson string (Sensation 16 - one of the worst Ive tried) I got good pop on all of my shots.
My question is - what strings did you enjoy most with the C10? I don't like mutis at all but have been happy with strings like Big Banger Alu Power and Alu Power rough in my POG Mid. Gut is obviously the perfect solution but we're moving into the rainy season here and I'd prefer to leave gut until later in the year.

I preferred Pacific Polyforce Original/Luxilon TiMo 17 or Pacific Xtreme/Luxilon ALU. I found either of the former to have more control and either of the latter to have more comfort and power. I was always in the market for more control, so I opted for the Original or TiMo. I strung them at 54.

I could never get gut right in the C10. Comparison-wise to the poly, it just never felt right. I'm tickled with its performance in my AG100s, and string an all-gut stringbed.

AndrewD
04-11-2009, 06:45 PM
I preferred Pacific Polyforce Original/Luxilon TiMo 17 or Pacific Xtreme/Luxilon ALU. I found either of the former to have more control and either of the latter to have more comfort and power. I was always in the market for more control, so I opted for the Original or TiMo. I strung them at 54.

I could never get gut right in the C10. Comparison-wise to the poly, it just never felt right. I'm tickled with its performance in my AG100s, and string an all-gut stringbed.

Im still in the early stages with the C10 and can't say for certain whether I'll stick with it (wins and losses will dictate that) but it seems promising already. I think what I'll do is go for power over control then work my way back, if necessary. I'm trying Alu Power (just having it strung now) and will see how that goes. Never played with TiMo but will give that a go as well.

Did you ever try a gut hybrid in the C10?

The only thing that bugs me is that because the C10 wasn't available to me I wasted so much time trying to get the t10 mp Gen2 to work. Never could and one of the chief problems was that the t10Gen2 was advertised as being 8pts HL but was nothing of the sort. I've got three different ones from three different sources and they all spec out around 4pts HL. Tail-weighting never seemed to work with them. If I'd have had access to the C10 three years ago I could have saved myself a lot of bother. The Gen2 is more spin-friendly but offers up a shrill, thin hit that is comfortable but not much else.

rst
05-04-2012, 02:56 AM
"Just wait. Some kid will come along who loved Sampras or Becker or McEnroe's style and change the game back to attacking net play just like Rafa has done with his style............"

i dont know that professional tennis competitors adopt style for styles sake. i would assume that it is more due to athletic prowess and their own psychology and success levels.

i havent been able to determine just how many times less current players attack the net on a big serve than happened some years back.

if it truly is less i wouldnt be surprised to see some pro rise in the ranks who attacks after some big tricky serve on a regular/more frequent basis.

an andy federllodra or something.