Federer forehand: Windshield wiper, classic, or combination of both?

[Mansewerz]

I know Federer can pummel the ball, but he also hits with a lot of spin.

Is he using a windshield wiper, classic, or hybrid forehand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM0jYWfVFMw&feature=related

[stormholloway]

First, define "windshield wiper" and "classic".

[Mansewerz]

First, define "windshield wiper" and "classic".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

[Grizvok]

I think people classifying tons of forehands simply as "windshield wiper" and moving on like they can all be lumped into one single category is ridiculous.

Different players hit with different "extremes" when it comes to the windshield wiper forehand. Nadal definitely hits up onto the ball more than Federer does yet other players who hit a flatter ball then Federer also swing in the windshield wiper motion (Safin for example). So yes, Federer just has a very unique motion into which he swings up into the ball the perfect amount to maximize pace and topspin. His sick ability to get tons of racquet head speed is also key.

[wihamilton]

Hey Mansewerz. It's both -- he rotates between classic technique and the WW depending on the shot he's trying to hit.

Fed doesn't have one forehand. He's got a bunch. Sometimes he hits w/the double-bend hitting-arm position. Sometimes he uses a straight arm. His follow through varies. And so on. So it's tough to really pin down the shot because it frequently doesn't look the same.

[Mansewerz]

Hey Mansewerz. It's both -- he rotates between classic technique and the WW depending on the shot he's trying to hit.

Fed doesn't have one forehand. He's got a bunch. Sometimes he hits w/the double-bend hitting-arm position. Sometimes he uses a straight arm. His follow through varies. And so on. So it's tough to really pin down the shot because it frequently doesn't look the same.

So the key is to vary the style?

When I wanna hit flat, use classic?

I think my problem on the forehand was directly addressed in your video. I hit with classic, but take on a windshield wiper to the end. Hence, I get a crappy, spin less ball that lands short.

Does that sound common?

[Grizvok]

Hey Mansewerz. It's both -- he rotates between classic technique and the WW depending on the shot he's trying to hit.

Fed doesn't have one forehand. He's got a bunch. Sometimes he hits w/the double-bend hitting-arm position. Sometimes he uses a straight arm. His follow through varies. And so on. So it's tough to really pin down the shot because it frequently doesn't look the same.

I'd say the vast majority of the time he is hitting with a relatively straight arm, isn't he? I could definitely see him using a double bend on some of his running reverse finishes though. But when he's set up and has time the straight arm seems to be his go to shot. It's funny because Fed's forehand technique has changed alot through the years. In this older school video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-Hf6hBVrY Fed's forehand strokes which start at about 1:30 are much loopier than what we see now. These forehands look to be much more windshield than we normally see too.

[Grizvok]

So the key is to vary the style?

When I wanna hit flat, use classic?

I think my problem on the forehand was directly addressed in your video. I hit with classic, but take on a windshield wiper to the end. Hence, I get a crappy, spin less ball that lands short.

Does that sound common?

Yea, that was directly mentioned in FYB's video about the windshield wiper finish. Federer seems like he breaks that rule often but he does whip up into the ball a great amount when it actually matters. His racquet head speed is just that damn good.

[wihamilton]

I'd say the vast majority of the time he is hitting with a relatively straight arm, isn't he? I could definitely see him using a double bend on some of his running reverse finishes though. But when he's set up and has time the straight arm seems to be his go to shot. It's funny because Fed's forehand technique has changed alot through the years. In this older school video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-Hf6hBVrY Fed's forehand strokes which start at about 1:30 are much loopier than what we see now. These forehands look to be much more windshield than we normally see too.

I haven't counted how often he uses what hitting-arm position. I just know that he switches it up.

Yea, that was directly mentioned in FYB's video about the windshield wiper finish. Federer seems like he breaks that rule often but he does whip up into the ball a great amount when it actually matters. His racquet head speed is just that damn good.

Fed actually doesn't break this rule. There are two basic ways to hit a windshield-wiper forehand. The first (which we taught in the video) is to swing w/a sufficiently vertical swing path so that your racket releases w/the windshield wiper finish. The second is to use pronation prior to, thru and after contact to create the WW motion. Fed uses this second method way more than the first one and it's why he can swing straight through the ball but still hit a windshield-wiper forehand. Nadal and Verdasco also do this.

Now I wouldn't recommend trying this unless you are really good. The reason we taught the WW forehand the way we did is because that method is vastly easier to learn. Essentially you have to set your hitting-arm position and swing up a little bit more than on a classic forehand. Trying to pronate is a great way to completely mess your shot up -- again, it's a really really advanced technique. And keep in mind that you can hit a world-class forehand w/out pronating -- by using method #1 (see Roddick / Djokovic).

Here's Federer hitting forehands in slow motion. There are some FH's in there where he swings through the ball -- has a horizontal swing path -- but pronates to produce the WW effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

Now here's Roddick. He's also hitting a WW but he's using the direction his arm / racket moves to create the follow through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA&fmt=18

[wihamilton]

So the key is to vary the style?

When I wanna hit flat, use classic?

I think my problem on the forehand was directly addressed in your video. I hit with classic, but take on a windshield wiper to the end. Hence, I get a crappy, spin less ball that lands short.

Does that sound common?

Yes the "tack on the wrong finish" mistake happens allllllllll the time.

[Grizvok]

I should have clarified. I know that Fed doesn't break the rule but it often may seem like it to the average viewer. He does exactly what you mentioned and pronates the wrist prior to and through contact.

[GnRFan]

Hey,

I read on another Federer forehand post from Tricky that in Federer's takeback, he will go from wrist laid back when to wrist relaxed and forearm turned counter clockwise and finally wrist laid back to do the pronation.

My question is this... Why even lay the wrist back in the first part. I have been practicing this style of forehand and it seems to me that it serves no point to lay the wrist back at the top of the loop and then relax it again as you do the pronation... It's just another step to consciencly remember while you are trying to ingrain this into your muscle memory.

And yes, I am a relative beginner still with a fairly inconsistent forehand (although some days it feels like nothing can stop it), but I want to use the straightarm forehand like Federer does and feel it would be wise to practice this so as not to confuse my muscles later on.

Cody

[wihamilton]

Hey,

I read on another Federer forehand post from Tricky that in Federer's takeback, he will go from wrist laid back when to wrist relaxed and forearm turned counter clockwise and finally wrist laid back to do the pronation.

My question is this... Why even lay the wrist back in the first part. I have been practicing this style of forehand and it seems to me that it serves no point to lay the wrist back at the top of the loop and then relax it again as you do the pronation... It's just another step to consciencly remember while you are trying to ingrain this into your muscle memory.

And yes, I am a relative beginner still with a fairly inconsistent forehand (although some days it feels like nothing can stop it), but I want to use the straightarm forehand like Federer does and feel it would be wise to practice this so as not to confuse my muscles later on.

Cody

Hi Cody. The backswing is largely stylistic -- as long as you get to a correct hitting-arm position when you start to swing forward you should be good to go. I wouldn't worry too much about what Federer does during his backswing. Develop your own technique / style. As for the straight-arm forehand, if you are a beginner I would HIGHLY recommend against it. Learn the double bend. It's a much more stable arm position and easier to learn, imo. You can always switch later on when you get (much) more advanced. Keep in mind that Roddick / Djokovic / Tsonga and most other pros on tour hit w/the double bend. You can have a world-class forehand with it.

[stormholloway]

Seems a bit unproductive to focus on words like 'windshield' and 'classic'. There's a racquet and a ball. Decide what you want to do with the ball and this move the racquet accordingly. I think there is far too much emphasis on terminology in tennis instruction. Words can never effectively communicate a feeling.

I think the best thing you could do is watch those slow mo videos of Federer. Visualization is the best instruction tool there is in my opinion. By the way, kudos on those videos. They're great.

[wihamilton]

Thanks storm!

[stormholloway]

I bought a little Kodak video camera that does "hi def" and 60 fps. I'll see if I can get some rally videos up this week. My biggest issue is setting the camera up so that it films at the right angle.

I'm curious what you FYB people can tell me about my flaws. I imagine they are numerous.

[wihamilton]

I bought a little Kodak video camera that does "hi def" and 60 fps. I'll see if I can get some rally videos up this week. My biggest issue is setting the camera up so that it films at the right angle.

I'm curious what you FYB people can tell me about my flaws. I imagine they are numerous.

Heh. Put something up and I'll take a look! Do you have a tripod? High shutter speed (film outside) and framing the video properly are two really important considerations.

[stormholloway]

No tripod. This camera basically looks like an oversized ipod. I'll see what I can do.

[wihamilton]

You have a friend with a steady hand? Heh. Elbows in the body help stabilize.

[Indiana Puffed]

Hey,

I read on another Federer forehand post from Tricky that in Federer's takeback, he will go from wrist laid back when to wrist relaxed and forearm turned counter clockwise and finally wrist laid back to do the pronation.

My question is this... Why even lay the wrist back in the first part. I have been practicing this style of forehand and it seems to me that it serves no point to lay the wrist back at the top of the loop and then relax it again as you do the pronation... It's just another step to consciencly remember while you are trying to ingrain this into your muscle memory.

And yes, I am a relative beginner still with a fairly inconsistent forehand (although some days it feels like nothing can stop it), but I want to use the straightarm forehand like Federer does and feel it would be wise to practice this so as not to confuse my muscles later on.

Cody

I think there could be a reason for it - by having the wrist laid back and incorporating such a take back, this allows Fed to switch quickly to his forehand drop shot. I was watching him do this against Keifer yesterday while reading presumably the same posts you read by tricky and also hi-def footage by FYB while also shadowing his technique in my bedroom. Tennis multi tasking.

Anyway, it could be nothing to do with that but I get the impression it helps.

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Thanks for the tips people. Can we list a few key points about the Federer straight arm forehand?

Some stuff I am finding out (some is common sense):

- You must place your body farther to the side of the ball when striking because your arm length is longer than the double bend so you need to be further away from the ball. This in itself is going to take some getting used too.

- Federer has his wrist turned counter clockwise until about when he starts his forward swing, then he lays his wrist back which in turn turns his forehand clockwise (this is the pronation).

I am really not quite sure though how pronationg the wrist (forearm down, and the turned up) is helping with the straight arm. Does it give it more power.

I am going to learn this, just need to work out the fine points and practice! BTW practicing in the mind (detailed practice) is almost like practicing on the court itself. I did this with my serve last year, just visualizing it in slow motion every detail, and I hadn't practiced for like 3 days and pulled off my best serve yet the very first time I tried after mind practice.

Thoughts?

Cody

[Kokopelli]

...

- Federer has his wrist turned counter clockwise until about when he starts his forward swing, then he lays his wrist back which in turn turns his forehand clockwise (this is the pronation).

...

I'm not as convinced that Federer has this counter-clockwise forearm turn in the take-back as I do with Djokovic. IMO, you can see this move more noticeably in the Djokovic's forehand.

Beware of this move. If you're consciously doing this, you could reduce the fluidity of your swing, AND adding unnecessary stress to the arm, resulting in injury.

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Kokoelli, watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

You can see Federer with his palm down and then as he swings forward he lays his wrist back and this in itself corrects the arm and pronates it back with the palm facing to his side.

Cody

[Grizvok]

Hey,

Kokoelli, watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

You can see Federer with his palm down and then as he swings forward he lays his wrist back and this in itself corrects the arm and pronates it back with the palm facing to his side.

Cody

I have to say, this video is pretty conclusive that he DOES lay his wrist back during the backswing. I am guessing laying the wrist back like that just allows him to get that much more topspin and overall racquet head speed since Federer's forehand does rely heavily on the wrist.

[Kokopelli]

Hey,

Kokoelli, watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

You can see Federer with his palm down and then as he swings forward he lays his wrist back and this in itself corrects the arm and pronates it back with the palm facing to his side.

Cody

Yes, there's a "wrist back" movement in a lot of the modern forehand. This is not what I'm talking about. I guess I misunderstood your post. What I'm talking about is the extra counter-clockwise movement (twisting) of the forearm during the take-back CAUSING the hitting-side of the racket to face the back wall or close to parallel to it. You don't see this in Federer, but you do see this in Djokovic. Granted, Djokovic has a western grip and Federer has an extreme eastern grip, so this would be more pronounced in Djokovic's grip. But to get the hitting side of the racket parallel to the back-wall, even for the western grip, you would need this "extra" counter-clockwise twisting of the forearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxEXxFLim1s

Look at the hitting side of the players' rackets from 6 to 8 seconds into the clip (at the end of their back-swings AND the beginning of their forward swing). Even with the western grip, you can't get the hitting side of the racket as parallel to the back wall as much as AND as long as Djokovic did without this extra counter-clockwise twist, IMHO.

EDIT:

Compare the clip above to this clip of Nadal's forehand who has the same grip as Djokovic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb3smnR6NSc&feature=related

The hitting side of Nadal's racket doesn't stay as paralleled to the back wall as much as AND as long as Djokovic's at the end of the take-back AND at the beginning of the forward swing. It looks as though Djokovic purposely (or consciously) keeping his forearm in a counter-clockwise (twisting) position longer than that of Nadal.

This is what I thought you meant when you wrote "turns his forehand clockwise" -> the "extra" turn that deviates from the typical wrist laid back, racket pulling modern forehand.

[GnRFan]

Hey,

I will check this out in depth later today. For now I will mention that from what I have read everywhere, Federer actually uses a grip that is halfway between an Eastern and a Western.

The heel of his hand should be on the Eastern Bevel and his index joint is either on the border of the easter bevel and the semi western bevel. He may even have it on the semi western bevel.

BTW when I say eastern bevel I mean bevel 3 and when I say semi western bevel I mean bevel 4.

All the Best,

Cody

[scotus]

Wasn't there a thread from some time go that juxtaposed pictures of Federer's forehand and that of Bjorn Borg?

It pretty much demonstrated that as innovative and unique we think Federer's forehand is, it looks awfully similar to Borg's forehand.

(Of course, both players could hit different types and swing patterns for their forehands...)

[GnRFan]

Hey,

Went to the court for like 3 hours today any my forehand was so pathetic, it didn't work all day except for the occasional one. It was going long most of the time.

I really want to figure out this straight arm business, but I had to revert back to the double bend and even that wasn't working. It is really annoying. I spend about 95% of my time practicing my forehand and then my backhand is so natural. I have probably spent 2-3 hours total on my backhand and it was working fine today, yet my forehand sucks... Argghhh!

Cody

[JediMindTrick]

Honestly, when I look at Federer's ungodly forehand I don't see anything classic about it, this just wishfull thinking from old timers. And while it looks similar to the windshield wiper I think it is deceiving because its like no other windshield wiper.

It seems to me that he swings the racquet forward with a straight arm and then, just before contact, he does a little something with his arm, as if casting an evil spell, and the ball just shoots out like possesed by demons.

The windshield-wiper, double-bend, "tuck the elbow in" crowd will tell you that his forehand is just like any other WW forehand except that he swings with a straight arm, and this straight arm thing is just a fad, and there's nothing to gain from the straight arm, and anyway you need to learn the classic WW (did I just call the WW a classic) before you can try the straight arm technique, but this is BS. I bet you that in the next decade the WW forehand will be considered old school and obsolete and everybody will swing with a straight arm.

[wihamilton]

Honestly, when I look at Federer's ungodly forehand I don't see anything classic about it, this just wishfull thinking from old timers. And while it looks similar to the windshield wiper I think it is deceiving because its like no other windshield wiper.

It seems to me that he swings the racquet forward with a straight arm and then, just before contact, he does a little something with his arm, as if casting an evil spell, and the ball just shoots out like possesed by demons.

The windshield-wiper, double-bend, "tuck the elbow in" crowd will tell you that his forehand is just like any other WW forehand except that he swings with a straight arm, and this straight arm thing is just a fad, and there's nothing to gain from the straight arm, and anyway you need to learn the classic WW (did I just call the WW a classic) before you can try the straight arm technique, but this is BS. I bet you that in the next decade the WW forehand will be considered old school and obsolete and everybody will swing with a straight arm.

I think you're right. There are two ways to hit a windshield-wiper forehand. The "old way" is what most pros do -- double bend + a swing direction that makes the WW finish appropriate (btw -- you can hit a world-class forehand like this). The other way is to let the wrist take care of the WW motion, which allows Federer (and others, such as Nadal / Verdasco) to swing in almost any direction he chooses.

An important consequence of this fact is that we may have to revise the theory that the hitting-arm position shouldn't change once it's set / over the course of the forward swing. I've watched a ton of slow-motion video since coming back from Indian Wells and have seen numerous examples where the hitting-arm position has changed thanks to wrist movement.

[JediMindTrick]

I think you're right. There are two ways to hit a windshield-wiper forehand. The "old way" is what most pros do -- double bend + a swing direction that makes the WW finish appropriate (btw -- you can hit a world-class forehand like this). The other way is to let the wrist take care of the WW motion, which allows Federer (and others, such as Nadal / Verdasco) to swing in almost any direction he chooses.

An important consequence of this fact is that we may have to revise the theory that the hitting-arm position shouldn't change once it's set / over the course of the forward swing. I've watched a ton of slow-motion video since coming back from Indian Wells and have seen numerous examples where the hitting-arm position has changed thanks to wrist movement.

I was going to mention Nadal and Verdasco because they too use the straight arm and how come all these guys have such big forehands, is it just a coincidence?

[wihamilton]

I was going to mention Nadal and Verdasco because they too use the straight arm and how come all these guys have such big forehands, is it just a coincidence?

No not coincidence. All their forehands share technical similarities that make them amazing shots.