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sureshs
04-01-2009, 06:29 AM
does not get troubled by Nadal's topspin even though he has has a one-handed BH? I noticed that he often moonballs the topspin back, much like a club player would do. Should Fed take a leaf out of his book and take the simpler approach rather than slicing on the one hand or going for too much on the other?

It also brings up the question of whether Nadal's topspin is overrated. Stan is able to neutralize it, and add some more, and that too on his backhand side.

Josherer
04-01-2009, 06:31 AM
Would have been funny if Wawrinka had won.

Fed would have been like WTH

Gonzo
04-01-2009, 06:54 AM
Youzny and Gasguet also have OHB and don't seem bothered as much by Nadal's topspin to the backhand. I don't think its the stroke ,as almost everyone seems to think here, its the player.

Yes, Fed needs to look at and study how these guys handle it.

Benefactor
04-01-2009, 06:56 AM
Because Wawrinka's backhand is markedly better than Federers, and so are the backhands of the other players mentioned in this thread. Gasquet's backhand is on a planet of its own.

Banger
04-01-2009, 07:11 AM
I think Stan is much stronger then Fed and that allows him to get more on top and power the ball back. Fed can only generate power on the backhand when the ball is low.

Nadal_Freak
04-01-2009, 07:14 AM
The balls weren't bouncing high enough. Stan would've struggled more against Nadal's shots in Indian Wells during the day or almost all clay events. Wawrinka is the most well suited player for the one-handed against Nadal though.

tennisdad65
04-01-2009, 07:21 AM
First time I saw stan play and was surprised with his backhand. I think he is very strong and muscles the ball. Fed is not as strong and has to depend on perfect timing.. not an easy thing to do against nadal's wicked topspin.

federmann
04-01-2009, 07:23 AM
Federer's backhand is technically wrong. Wawrinka's is not. A backhand shouldn't be hit by dropping the wrist and turning it up again. But that's what Federer does.
It's as simple as that! There's no way to handle a heavy topspin on a consistent basis by making such a basic error.

tennis_hand
04-01-2009, 07:31 AM
Stan uses a larger racket: the key!

flyer
04-01-2009, 07:37 AM
idk how much you can really take out of this match, nadal played about as bad as he is capable of playing and still won in strait sets, to his credit though stan didnt give up and was not intimidated by nadal's game the way federer seems to be, for whatever reason his backhand is certainly better than federer's but the result was still the same

Chopin
04-01-2009, 07:38 AM
The balls weren't bouncing high enough. Stan would've struggled more against Nadal's shots in Indian Wells during the day or almost all clay events. Wawrinka is the most well suited player for the one-handed against Nadal though.

What about Gasquet?

Chopin
04-01-2009, 07:40 AM
Youzny and Gasguet also have OHB and don't seem bothered as much by Nadal's topspin to the backhand. I don't think its the stroke ,as almost everyone seems to think here, its the player.

Yes, Fed needs to look at and study how these guys handle it.

You're right. Besides, Federer's backhand was not the problem in his last two meetings with Nadal (Wimbledon and Aussie Open), in both cases it came down to unforced errors, and in the case of the Aussie Open, waiting for Nadal to go away in the third set and choking on 70 mph second serves.

ESP#1
04-01-2009, 07:47 AM
I noticed Wawrinka was stepping back and hitting the ball back with alot of topspin, Fed tries to flatten it out and hit it early i also noticed he was running around the backhand on his serve, seems as if Wawrinka was willing to make adjustments to his game, unlike Roger

Federer4life
04-01-2009, 07:54 AM
I think Stan is much stronger then Fed and that allows him to get more on top and power the ball back. Fed can only generate power on the backhand when the ball is low.I would not say he is much stronger but Stan is stronger than Fed. Someone tell Fed to hit the weight room :)

jmverdugo
04-01-2009, 07:59 AM
Besides topspin the ball back with his OBH, Stan also did run around his BH to hit with his FH down the line a lot. He only was agressive with his BH on shoulder high shots or lower.

CCSurf
04-01-2009, 08:21 AM
From what I saw, it looked like Stan went after Nadal's bh more; and, more importantly, stepped inside the baseline more often than Fed does against Nadal.

Let's not forget about the serve too. Stan's serve was hot while Fed's serve seems to go away every time he plays Nadal.

charliefedererer
04-01-2009, 08:45 AM
does not get troubled by Nadal's topspin even though he has has a one-handed BH? I noticed that he often moonballs the topspin back, much like a club player would do. Should Fed take a leaf out of his book and take the simpler approach rather than slicing on the one hand or going for too much on the other?

It also brings up the question of whether Nadal's topspin is overrated. Stan is able to neutralize it, and add some more, and that too on his backhand side.
You must have been seeing things. All the two-handed backhand fans have already conclusively proved that their stroke is superior to a one-handed backhand. That's why I turned the TV off in the second set tiebreak, because I knew a 1HBH this good was impossible.

eagle
04-01-2009, 08:46 AM
I think Nadal brings his A+++ game against Federer who he knows has the ability to beat him.

So, he probably prepares more and elevates his game much higher than if he were playing with anyone else who he thinks isn't really much of a threat.

I liken this to the Sampras-Agassi rivalry when they themselves admitted to upping their game more than usual whenever they face each other.

2 cents.

r,
eagle

sureshs
04-01-2009, 08:46 AM
Stan uses a larger racket: the key!

That may be true. Fed needs to look into this.

veroniquem
04-01-2009, 08:58 AM
Last time I checked, Federer took 2 sets off Nadal in both last AO and W. Wawrinka lost in straight. I would say Federer's game works better against Nadal than Wawrinka's.
Just my 2 cents.
(Federer also bageled Nadal at Hamburg 07 and W 06, something I'm sure Wawrinka would be completely incapable of doing, reality check here!)

RalphNYC
04-01-2009, 09:10 AM
I have never seen Nadal mentally flustered by Fed. Stan definitely flsutered Nadal and that was why Nadal hit more errors. Stan's backhand was more consistently deep into the corner and he was also able to keep Nadal behind the baseline with it. Fed occasionally hits beautiful winners with it, but mostly only on short balls - like he did against Dent yesterday. Stan's BH technique is just more fundamentally sound. I mean the guy was ripping winners cross court on his bh, against Nadal!

ESP#1
04-01-2009, 09:11 AM
That may be true. Fed needs to look into this.

I've played both racquets and I really don't think it makes that much of a difference, the head 98 seems to be smaller than some 95's, I think if Federer stepped back a bit it would help him against Nadal but Fed doesn't want to give up his court position,
I think the loopy topspin backhand is a better choice than the slice when playing Nadal, the slice allows Nadal to step in where as the topspin deep ball would place Nadal behind the baseline allowing Federer to regain his court position and attack with the forehand

Nadal_Freak
04-01-2009, 09:11 AM
I think Nadal brings his A+++ game against Federer who he knows has the ability to beat him.

So, he probably prepares more and elevates his game much higher than if he were playing with anyone else who he thinks isn't really much of a threat.

I liken this to the Sampras-Agassi rivalry when they themselves admitted to upping their game more than usual whenever they face each other.

2 cents.

r,
eagle
I doubt it. Nadal always tries his hardest. He's allowed to get in a better rhythm against Federer though.

veroniquem
04-01-2009, 09:13 AM
I have never seen Nadal mentally flustered by Fed. Stan definitely flsutered Nadal and that was why Nadal hit more errors. Stan's backhand was more consistently deep into the corner and he was also able to keep Nadal behind the baseline with it. Fed occasionally hits beautiful winners with it, but mostly only on short balls - like he did against Dent yesterday. Stan's BH technique is just more fundamentally sound. I mean the guy was ripping winners cross court on his bh, against Nadal!
Nadal was flustered because of his own game not working well (he was already flustered the round before for the same reason).

ci2ca
04-01-2009, 09:14 AM
Last time I checked, Federer took 2 sets off Nadal in both last AO and W. Wawrinka lost in straight. I would say Federer's game works better against Nadal than Wawrinka's.
Just my 2 cents.
(Federer also bageled Nadal at Hamburg 07 and W 06, something I'm sure Wawrinka would be completely incapable of doing, reality check here!)

First time I've heard you support Federer. Haha, sorry.

veroniquem
04-01-2009, 09:36 AM
First time I've heard you support Federer. Haha, sorry.
Supporting someone doesn't mean one should ignore facts. In this story, the facts are : Federer is better than Wawrinka even against Nadal. It has nothing to do with my own preferences, it has to do with what reality is and not losing perspective after this one very exciting match.

sureshs
04-01-2009, 09:39 AM
Supporting someone doesn't mean one should ignore facts. In this story, the facts are : Federer is better than Wawrinka even against Nadal. It has nothing to do with my own preferences, it has to do with what reality is and not losing perspective after this one very exciting match.

That is true - that is what the rankings and results indicate.

It is only one aspect of Stan's game which appears to be better - the ability to handle topspins to the backhand, and that too with apparent ease, and getting it offensively back to Nadal with depth and topspin to spare.

sureshs
04-01-2009, 09:41 AM
I've played both racquets and I really don't think it makes that much of a difference, the head 98 seems to be smaller than some 95's, I think if Federer stepped back a bit it would help him against Nadal but Fed doesn't want to give up his court position,
I think the loopy topspin backhand is a better choice than the slice when playing Nadal, the slice allows Nadal to step in where as the topspin deep ball would place Nadal behind the baseline allowing Federer to regain his court position and attack with the forehand

The Head 98 is a 95 which is bigger than a 90. Hitting the loopy topspin is better done with a bigger racquet which has more margin of error, specially against the topspin of the likes of Nadal.

Nadal_Freak
04-01-2009, 09:43 AM
Supporting someone doesn't mean one should ignore facts. In this story, the facts are : Federer is better than Wawrinka even against Nadal. It has nothing to do with my own preferences, it has to do with what reality is and not losing perspective after this one very exciting match.
I'm not too sure I agree with this. Nadal loves playing Federer. You never feel like he is threatened as he can always hit to Fed's backhand. No comfort in playing to Wawrinka's backhand. Fed has lost 5 straight matches to Nadal. Wawrinka lost 1 this year and could've gone either way.

sureshs
04-01-2009, 09:43 AM
Federer's backhand is technically wrong. Wawrinka's is not. A backhand shouldn't be hit by dropping the wrist and turning it up again. But that's what Federer does.
It's as simple as that! There's no way to handle a heavy topspin on a consistent basis by making such a basic error.

Fantastic analysis

Mansewerz
04-01-2009, 09:51 AM
I think Wawrinka, like Gasquet, has a more extreme grip..

RalphNYC
04-01-2009, 10:00 AM
Nadal was flustered because of his own game not working well (he was already flustered the round before for the same reason).

Nadal's attitude changed very much throughout the match. He started hitting more errors when he saw how Stan could run him around the court and neutralize Nadal's weapons. Stan got to him, no doubt about it. Even the commentators were talking about it at length.

TheNatural
04-01-2009, 10:34 AM
Anyone who's ever seen Wawrinka, even years back, can see that Wawrinka has a much better backhand technique than Fed. Fed should get some tips from him.

svijk
04-01-2009, 10:35 AM
Its an inetersting point however i do not think Wawrinka showed the blue print o beat Nadal or anything.....its one match and people do tend to over-analyze Nadal's matches.
Fact is that he won, yes with a little anxiety but some of the early round matches can get tricky when you play a guy who has nothing to lose and plays his best tennis. To me Wawrinka played good, thats pretty much it.

tennis_hand
04-02-2009, 04:43 AM
Warwinka's backhand is better than Fed's against top spinners. but Fed's is more versatile. Overall, Warwinka's wins in backhand, esp against Nadal. Warwinka lost, not because of his backhand.

lawrence
04-02-2009, 04:57 AM
Stan uses a larger racket: the key!

so simple, but probably so true lol

BreakPoint
04-02-2009, 09:54 AM
Because Wawrinka's backhand is markedly better than Federers, and so are the backhands of the other players mentioned in this thread. Gasquet's backhand is on a planet of its own.
I wouldn't really say that their backhands are "better" than Federer's, just different. Federer's backhand is optimized for low bouncing balls. That's why he's won 5 Wimbledons and 5 US Opens. Have these other guys won any?

Guys like Wawrinka, Gasquet, Youhzny, Gaudio, etc. have backhands that are optimized for high bounces and that's why they are all better clay court players. Due to their grips and mechanics, a high bouncing ball doesn't bother them as much so when the ball bounces higher on a clay court or when extreme topspin makes the ball bounce higher on a hard court, they are more adept at handling it.

GPB
04-02-2009, 10:05 AM
The Head 98 is a 95 which is bigger than a 90. Hitting the loopy topspin is better done with a bigger racquet which has more margin of error, specially against the topspin of the likes of Nadal.

The K90 has the same stringbed width (from 9 to 3) than most midplus frames out there right now. I demoed a K90 just to see what it was like, and holding it up against a Redondo (93), Vantage (95), Pro Staff Classic 6.1 (95), Prestige Pro (98),... they're ALL THE SAME when it comes to width. The K90 and Redondo were a good bit shorter in the 6:00 position than the others, but this dimension doesn't affect a player's ability to hit a topspin shot.

Sure the oversized frames have more "topspin room," and the rounded midpluses (head extreme, bab apdc, etc...) do as well. But hitting with that K90 was a lot easier than I thought it would be.

I think we should stop blaming Fed's wins/losses on his rackets.

tomas9848
04-02-2009, 01:16 PM
i wish he would have won.

sureshs
04-16-2009, 12:21 PM
Stan is on the rise.

rich01
04-16-2009, 01:42 PM
Stan uses a larger racket: the key!

The prestige is smaller than 90".

sureshs
04-16-2009, 01:54 PM
The prestige is smaller than 90".

I think he uses the midplus

clayman2000
04-16-2009, 05:14 PM
good question.....
I think the reason is that in the past, Federer used to hit his backhand by starting his motion low, than lifting his arms up, and flicking his wrist. Thus on high bouncing balls, that motion is hard to do

Bassus
04-16-2009, 05:35 PM
I don't think too much should be read into one match. Let's see if Wawrinka's backhand would hold up against Nadal over a five-set match, or in multiple matches.

We all know the story of Federer's backhand vs Nadal's forehand so well because of the big stages they always meet on, and because it has happened so many times over the years.

NLBwell
04-16-2009, 05:50 PM
I'm glad there is a thread on this, since I am very curious about how Warwrinka's backhand help up. Since he is not the overall player Federer is, I was assuming his backhand held up against Nadal's topspin. If he is able to Muster-like rip the backhand back at Nadal, that would be a big difference. I do wonder if Federer could start practicing a different backhand (in addition to his current ones) with a different grip and ever feel confident in it. (Steffi Graf hit topspin backhands in practice, but very rarely hit them in matches.)