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_mats_
04-01-2009, 09:50 AM
Ok, this is an amazing story, this happened to me yesterday and still cannot believe it.

Playing a friendly doubles match like we do every Tue, Thurs and Sats (not league or USTA) with this group.

I played with and against this guy who is approx 70yrs old (im 33), I do not know why but he never liked me, while I never had anything against him.

Anyway he was being negative about everything on my game as usual (this time mostly because I had to give up some balls because of a sprained knee, saying that I should stay home before playing tennis like that and not able to chase some balls otherwise I should not show up to play etc..)

We were playing and a ball was called out, I hit a backhand to the server returning the ball for him to serve, but I mis-timed it and it went to this 70yrs old (it did not even hit him as he put his racquet in front) an honest mistake, I apologized, but he was bent over this.

Thing is at the end the match he says very nervously "you should know what the "F" you are doing etc" and leaves, so I talk to the other players to see if I should go talk to him or not, one advises me to , the other not to.

So, I decided to go and talk to him and assure him it was a mistake, I specifically told him I had nothing against him even though he never liked me (or hated me for some unknown reason).

Things get interesting and he starts shaking and using the S and F word (there were a couple HS kids playing who stopped and came closer to see what was going on).

He then shoves his index in my chest and goes off about some crazy stuff using foul language, just 2 inches from my face.. I tried to get him to calm down and I specifically said "(name here), I want to make friends not enemies" in a very calm voice.. then he said "well you made one today (enemy I assume?) and he headbutted me on the nose.. I stood there motionless in complete awe at what just happened which was vicious and bizarre.

At that point I feel something streaming down I touched it and with the index I showed him blood.. without saying a word, he then knew he screwed up instantly as he said "and don't go telling I headbutted you, that was my "CAP that hit you!!" it was ridiculous.

Another player who happened to be behind me witnessing everything came over and handed me a tissue and offered his phone number, name etc.. and told me I should call the police..

I got home and did so, did not press charges as the officer told me that would put him in jail, but I filed an incident report instead, I didnt want to ruin this guy's life for headbutting me, so the police are going to let him know they know about this and contact my witness(es) since there were other HS kids on the court.

I still have NOTHING against the guy (except that he assaulted me) I honestly feel bad for the guy, who obviously is very unstable, it was an extremely odd situation.

Needless to say I will still have to see him when we play, I will not play with or against him again though, I would politely decline, but I cannot let him bully me out of the fun of tennis and public courts.

BTW, he has had issues with almost any other playing since the 70's.

Had to tell a story, still very shocked (wish it was an Aprils fool joke too!) sadly, it wasnt :cry:

Caloi
04-01-2009, 10:02 AM
You got bullied...by a 70 year old?! That's a tough scenario you've layed out. I don't handle bully's well. I'd just as soon kick the *** of a 7 year old bullying my kid as much as a 70 year old guy bullying anyone at the courts. I don't have any advice for you other than to say good luck. Hopefully he'll calm down next time you meet up.

_mats_
04-01-2009, 10:09 AM
Caloi, yes ! I know its funny, sad, unbelievable, everything.

I don't know where you are, but here in the states I if retribute the action and there is such an age gap, I would be in trouble tenfold, in this case Im extremely surprised and thankful I remained calm (mostly shocked, since I didnt understand what was going on), otherwise I would be in deep right now, and I have a son, a wife.. not a good scenario to be in jail.

That is the reason I was nice to him and did not press charges, this guy is a HS coach (believe it or not) and did not want to ruin his life either, but if he is this unstable and polemical with everyone I would be surprised if this is the first time he goes this far.

Thanks for the post Caloi !

Bad Dog
04-01-2009, 10:11 AM
Very sorry to hear of your experience; there are jerks everywhere in life, and one of those jerks just happened to find you on the tennis court. People age in one of two ways: gracefully or bitterly. Your opponent aged bitterly, and it sounds like he is simply angry at the world.

spiderman123
04-01-2009, 10:15 AM
BTW, he has had issues with almost any other playing since the 70's.

Had to tell a story, still very shocked (wish it was an Aprils fool joke too!) sadly, it wasnt :cry:


If he has always been a trouble maker, If I were you, I would have stopped playing with/against him a long time ago.

As a family man, you must be knowing that time out playing tennis comes at a premium and I would not want to waste that precious time with such characters. The good people in this world far outnumber the bad ones and it should not be difficult to find a pleasant group to play with. My 2 cents.

saram
04-01-2009, 10:24 AM
Holy crap!

I might have pressed charges based on one thing--his telling you not to tell anyone he assaulted you. That shows that he knows his behavior is wrong, that it is wrong to assault someone and he really does not care.

Regardless of age--no one has the right to intimidate nor assault anyone else on this planet.

I'll also reach out virtually here and offer to shake your hand commend you for not reacting to violence with violence. VERY well done, Sir.

_mats_
04-01-2009, 10:28 AM
If he has always been a trouble maker, If I were you, I would have stopped playing with/against him a long time ago.

As a family man, you must be knowing that time out playing tennis comes at a premium and I would not want to waste that precious time with such characters. The good people in this world far outnumber the bad ones and it should not be difficult to find a pleasant group to play with. My 2 cents.


Thanks for the comments Saram, Spiderman and Bad Dog

Really appreciate it ! I agree with everything, I should have not played him long ago, that is very true, I will now remove myself from these situations, very good advice.

Saram, I thought about it for a long time, about 1 hr before I called the cops, I wanted to have a clear head knowing that I would change this guy's life drastically, its a big thing to do, I think this leaves a precedent, in case he does not have another incident filed already, but that is up to the Police to assess, thanks for the handshake appreciated !

Thanks again for the support, I mean it

Jimmyk459
04-01-2009, 10:28 AM
Its called a nice clean ***** SLAP!!! learn to use it...

pabletion
04-01-2009, 10:34 AM
my my.... you did handle the situation much more calmly than I would have... Good man not to put him in jail, and maybe he'll be embarrassed enough with the police having him know about it...

what I would do from now on, completely ignore him and if he ever says anything again, press charges and maybe put a restraining order against him (since youre in the States ;), if it was here in my country I would threaten to kick his ***!!!)

Ive held my ground against a couple of geezers at my club, they act kinda like bullies I dont know why the hell!!?? One is a crazy man who gets angry at anything, he takes his grandsons to lessons and hes a complete a-hole..., yells at them for being lazy or not play well, to hustle... etc etc. Hes so loud and annoying! One time I was on the next court I just went SHHHHHH!!!! TOO LOUD! out loud and he kinda got rattled; nothing happened, but Im sure he wasnt used to getting asked to keep it down.

saram
04-01-2009, 10:38 AM
Its called a nice clean ***** SLAP!!! learn to use it...

No, that is absolutely NOT the right thing to do.

Serpententacle
04-01-2009, 11:07 AM
Are you sure this isn't an April Fools fake out?

_mats_
04-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Are you sure this isn't an April Fools fake out?

Absolutely not, this just happened yesterday, I wish it was, trust me, I only wish it did not happen.

kimbahpnam
04-01-2009, 11:17 AM
What courts were these at? Are you somewhere near Seattle? I'm just curious since I see PNW in your location and I'm there too.

I think beating up a 70 year old is worse than being beaten up by one...?

Gorecki
04-01-2009, 11:27 AM
well mats. you are a very nice person. way better than i am. i would have beat the crap out of him...:evil:

_mats_
04-01-2009, 11:31 AM
What courts were these at? Are you somewhere near Seattle? I'm just curious since I see PNW in your location and I'm there too.

I think beating up a 70 year old is worse than being beaten up by one...?


Hi Kimbahpnam.. I am in Kitsap county, across the sound, I do not intend to burn this guy online either, so let's just say Kitsap.

As far as beating/get "beat" in a way, yes thats the way I look at it now, and Im glad it went the way it went.

Thanks !

Jack the Hack
04-01-2009, 11:44 AM
Just my 2 cents...

I think that by not pressing charges, you are letting this guy get away from his responsibility. As you've reported, you were assaulted on the tennis court. If the guy gets away with it this time, he'll likely do it to someone else later (either on the court or in another setting). The fact that he's 70 years old should only indicate that he's never grown up or had to face the consequences of his anger problem. The fact that you mentioned that he is currently a high school tennis coach just reinforces the idea to me that he needs to be held accountable.

(I'm a former college and high school coach, and I always felt that my behaviour was held to a higher standard on and off the court. I understand anger, but crossing the line to assault means that he needs help... and pressing charges may be the only way to insure that he gets it.)

Jim A
04-01-2009, 11:45 AM
I'd play again and probably just crush one overhead into his chest, but I guess I'm like that. Being "part of the game" stuff happens on the court

It would take a lot to get me to that point, I'm pretty calm 99.9% of the time..but someone headbutting me and giving me a bloody nose (and running the risk of breaking my nose) would probably do it...

dwhiteside
04-01-2009, 11:52 AM
The guy obviously has some psychological issues, if he'd do that. Not mentally stable in terms of aggression and anger management. Definitely distance yourself from him as much as possible.

What was he saying more specifically when you approached him between when you said "I have nothing against you" and when he headbutted you? (You referred to using the S and F word... why? What types of things was he saying?) This is very interesting and definitely strange and offputting :(. That'd soil my tennis experience at that club for a while!

sureshs
04-01-2009, 11:54 AM
There are conditions like onset of Alzheimers and Parkinsons where behavior can change and old people act stubbornly and belligerently.

Let it go.

l_gonzalez
04-01-2009, 11:55 AM
man, i find it amazing that you kept your cool. Kudos to you. Anyone assaults me anywhere and instinct just takes over. If that had been me in your shoes, i probably would have punched the guy and that would have turned out horribly as only bad things can happen when you punch a 70 year old man...

Violence on the tennis court is not unheard of though and it's happened to me quite a few times.

Beat a guy at a junior tournament once (we were both 16) and he was far from a happy camper and stormed out without shaking my hand or anything. Next thing i know, i'm on my way home waiting at the bus stop and I see the guy coming at me in a menacing way... drops his tennis bag and just starts wailing on me! I hit back and then his friends got involved and my friends got involved, within minutes the police had turned up and put most of us in the back of a police van...

Another time a couple of years ago i played a league match in a rough part of town against a local guy. He was cheating throughout but i didn't argue much as he was a big guy (well over 6ft and 200lbs+) I won, and when i shook his hand i said "Bad luck mate, good luck in your next match"... and he absolutely lost it! He was like: "Luck?! this ain't about luck you little s**t, i'm a better player, you just robbed me you *%@@@*%" and he just started ranting and went crazy, grabbed me by the neck and threw me to the ground. I ran out of the court and he started chasing me around, threw a brick at me (missed) and then he picked up some kind of steel pipe that he found and chased me with that in his hand. I was scared for my life but then the police turned up and saved my ***. Later i found out the guy had done 5 years in jail for aggravated assault.... just goes to show you never know who you're gonna come up against on an internet tennis league.

I also had a major incident when a group of about 20 kids from a nearby gipsy campsite stormed our tennis club armed with baseball bats, chains and all kinds of improvised weapons and robbed everyone that was there...

sureshs
04-01-2009, 11:58 AM
I disagree. There is a common misconception that there is a higher likelihood of a senior citizen being "upstanding" than a person their 30's. In my experience at their core, people don't change much over time.

They don't, but their testerone level reduces and they become less competitive in general (though they may be the opposite in their own age circle).

_mats_
04-01-2009, 12:05 PM
The guy obviously has some psychological issues, if he'd do that. Not mentally stable in terms of aggression and anger management. Definitely distance yourself from him as much as possible.

What was he saying more specifically when you approached him between when you said "I have nothing against you" and when he headbutted you? (You referred to using the S and F word... why? What types of things was he saying?) This is very interesting and definitely strange and offputting :(. That'd soil my tennis experience at that club for a while!

Well, all kinds of things, he made a maneuver on the court so that I would be on one end to prove that I could not move, and I pointed out to him that it looked intentional and there was no need for it, and then he lashed out at me, saying that he did not need to do that to make me look bad, that I make myself look bad the way I hit the ball (I know, ridiculous comment/reason to headbutt someone).

And from there it went in-crescendo, he said almost literally if I can remember, "You dont know S... now get the F.. home and out of these F.. courts and dont show up again" all of this 2'' from my face.

I was super calm all the way (shocked), I mentioned the friends bit and then the headbutt.

l_gonzalez, those are really bad experiences, the fact that you both were 16 played a huge role too, not surprised the guy did 5yrs for aggravated assault though.

_mats_
04-01-2009, 03:22 PM
Phew just a quick update.

Got a phone call from one of the players I play with to show his support, he almost had a fistfight with this guy 5 or 6 years ago, and he encouraged to keep coming out and play with them, (just not "with" this guy particularly), and told me not to get affected by this bad experience.

So all is good, there is definitely a pattern and that is a little re-assuring to me, I never had a problem with anyone else.

sigh... I take this as experience, that obsession is definitely not a good thing.

Thanks again for the support !

EasleyTennis
04-01-2009, 03:29 PM
It's actually considered battery if he hit you. I don't see how you didn't jack him in the face after he did that..

_mats_
04-01-2009, 03:34 PM
It's actually considered battery if he hit you. I don't see how you didn't jack him in the face after he did that..

Thanks, I did not know the legal distinction, had to look it up in wikipedia, ok yes, it was battery.

The officer wanted me to acknowledge that if I pressed charges he WILL go to jail, he even emphasized the "will".

I did not think it was that severe, this sets a precedent in case anything else happens, verbal abuse and I will call them again.

Thanks again -

10sfreak
04-01-2009, 05:41 PM
OP, by not pressing charges against the old geezer, you may have inadverdently set him up for a REAL ***-whoopin' in the future. See, he got away with it this time, so he might feel emboldened to do the same thing to someone else, who might not be quite as patient as you are.

Ronaldo
04-01-2009, 06:09 PM
Next time mats, snatch that old man's walker from him then ground and pound that old geezer.

chilllaxin006
04-01-2009, 06:34 PM
april fools day anyone

Patrick_St
04-01-2009, 06:52 PM
Sounds like an April Fools' Day prank to me.

_mats_
04-01-2009, 07:15 PM
OP, by not pressing charges against the old geezer, you may have inadverdently set him up for a REAL ***-whoopin' in the future. See, he got away with it this time, so he might feel emboldened to do the same thing to someone else, who might not be quite as patient as you are.


Yes I dont know, I might see him tomorrow or sat. weather permitting hope I can resume playing tennis without further incidents.

To the people claiming April's fools, its understandable, I would probably think the same.

Thanks again -

maverick66
04-01-2009, 07:23 PM
i would have pressed the charges. if hes man enough to throw the head butt let him be man enough to deal with the consequences.

mauricem
04-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Public courts or a tennis club? If the latter then surely that would be grounds to have his membership revoked.

What about the rest of this "friendly" group, sounds like they need to man up and tell him hes not welcome anymore especially as this was evidence of a pattern of intimidatory behavior

Even though I'm not litigious by nature I think a civil damages suit might be worth considering if for no other reason than to reinforce the consequences of actions to this old bas*******

Congrats on keeping your cool, something coming out of left field like that its difficult to know how to react.

_mats_
04-01-2009, 07:55 PM
Thanks, it came SO out of left field that I was at a loss of words and actions.

Again, I will see how things develop Thurs. or Sat., 3 of the people that play in the group showed support, I will talk to them and see what they plan on doing, this guy has been playing tennis since 68' and is embedded in the local tennis scene, but there is some pattern definitely, so I will talk to them and see what they plan on doing, my guess is they wont do anything and just play.

Our group plays at a high school, and sometimes on a different public courts when the HS has team practice.

Again, I will feel things out Thurs, or Sat. and see how he acts, I will keep my distance, and if anything comes up I will call the police on the spot.

If he never interacts with me again and I get to play in peace with the rest, im cool with that at this point I think.

Thanks again for reading, Ive seen a lot of drama posted here and now it is my turn, I could not see this coming in a million years.

ubermeyer
04-01-2009, 08:03 PM
That is horrible, especially in a "friendly match"

moonbat
04-01-2009, 10:35 PM
It's assault AND battery and I think you and your buds should get together and ban the guy. How's your nose?

onehandbh
04-01-2009, 11:51 PM
You should have pressed charges and then told him that his headbutt just
landed him a free night in the pen and the words head & butt are going to have
a whole new meaning for him...

BorisBecker1872
04-02-2009, 12:14 AM
Interesting story. I would have had the police ARREST him. He did, after all, assault you. You did do the right thing in not attacking him back as that would not be right given his age. Unfortunate incident.

120mphBodyServe
04-02-2009, 12:29 AM
What an idiot... I'd be immensely thankful if i was able to play tennis at that age...
You should have had him sent to jail.. Give him a chance to think about things... You're too nice, _Mats_...
*hug for you*

mental midget
04-02-2009, 05:09 AM
angry old guys are a tough riddle to solve. their anger is compounded by the fact they know if they really haul off and try to punch you, they're getting knocked on their ***. so the rage builds, compounded by frustration at their own advanced age and physical impotence, they start to shake, and usually, some comically small bit of violence slips out (a finger push, your head butt, an awkward half-shove, etc.)

nothing to do but walk away. however in your case, i might have said, 'ok, because i'm a good guy, i won't call the police, but (smash) when you learn how to behave, you can buy yourself another tennis racket.'

sciwriter
04-02-2009, 05:21 AM
You should have pressed charges. I have been dealing with similarly crazy old guys. Your assailant will learn only by spending time in jail.

cknobman
04-02-2009, 06:07 AM
Old man or not once he assaulted me anything I did in retaliation would have been considered self defense.

Im not saying I would try to hurt the old man seriously but I surely would have returned the headbutt or maybe laid him out.

darthpwner
04-02-2009, 06:14 AM
Ok, this is an amazing story, this happened to me yesterday and still cannot believe it.

Playing a friendly doubles match like we do every Tue, Thurs and Sats (not league or USTA) with this group.

I played with and against this guy who is approx 70yrs old (im 33), I do not know why but he never liked me, while I never had anything against him.

Anyway he was being negative about everything on my game as usual (this time mostly because I had to give up some balls because of a sprained knee, saying that I should stay home before playing tennis like that and not able to chase some balls otherwise I should not show up to play etc..)

We were playing and a ball was called out, I hit a backhand to the server returning the ball for him to serve, but I mis-timed it and it went to this 70yrs old (it did not even hit him as he put his racquet in front) an honest mistake, I apologized, but he was bent over this.

Thing is at the end the match he says very nervously "you should know what the "F" you are doing etc" and leaves, so I talk to the other players to see if I should go talk to him or not, one advises me to , the other not to.

So, I decided to go and talk to him and assure him it was a mistake, I specifically told him I had nothing against him even though he never liked me (or hated me for some unknown reason).

Things get interesting and he starts shaking and using the S and F word (there were a couple HS kids playing who stopped and came closer to see what was going on).

He then shoves his index in my chest and goes off about some crazy stuff using foul language, just 2 inches from my face.. I tried to get him to calm down and I specifically said "(name here), I want to make friends not enemies" in a very calm voice.. then he said "well you made one today (enemy I assume?) and he headbutted me on the nose.. I stood there motionless in complete awe at what just happened which was vicious and bizarre.

At that point I feel something streaming down I touched it and with the index I showed him blood.. without saying a word, he then knew he screwed up instantly as he said "and don't go telling I headbutted you, that was my "CAP that hit you!!" it was ridiculous.

Another player who happened to be behind me witnessing everything came over and handed me a tissue and offered his phone number, name etc.. and told me I should call the police..

I got home and did so, did not press charges as the officer told me that would put him in jail, but I filed an incident report instead, I didnt want to ruin this guy's life for headbutting me, so the police are going to let him know they know about this and contact my witness(es) since there were other HS kids on the court.

I still have NOTHING against the guy (except that he assaulted me) I honestly feel bad for the guy, who obviously is very unstable, it was an extremely odd situation.

Needless to say I will still have to see him when we play, I will not play with or against him again though, I would politely decline, but I cannot let him bully me out of the fun of tennis and public courts.

BTW, he has had issues with almost any other playing since the 70's.

Had to tell a story, still very shocked (wish it was an Aprils fool joke too!) sadly, it wasnt :cry:

Wow thats 1 crazy old fart. u shouldve been like saram's friend and tried to kill him with a tennis ball after the incident

_mats_
04-02-2009, 06:57 AM
Moonbat, my nose is just fine, it just bled a little bit on the spot, thats the reason this unknown player came over with a tissue and help.

Onehandbh, I looked it up and battery could land from 2 to 5 years in jail though, it was too much, I did not know this until I called the Police and the officer confirmed this and wanted me to acknowledge it, it seemed harsh, but at the same time he cant go around doing this and not expecting consequences, so I thought the incident report was good enough, with a police visit and that staying on the record.

I there is a minor incident from now on I have that as a precedent.

Thanks for the comments -

beernutz
04-02-2009, 07:00 AM
You did the right thing by not escalating the situation. First because beating up an old person, even in self-defense, is a lose-lose. Second, there is a chance that old guy can still hand out ***-whoopins, and getting your *** handed to you by an old man doesn't look a whole lot better than handing his to him. FWIW, I have known guys who have permits to carry a concealed weapon and keep a pistol in their tennis bag.


To all you young guys who think every 70 year old out there is a pushover I wish you could have met my late uncle. He was a former Army intelligence and security officer and was 6'3" 225 from his mid-20s to his mid-70s and could hand out hand-to-hand ***-whippings with the best of them. Give him an additional implement of destruction, say for example a tennis racquet, and he could be positively scary.

jmjmkim
04-02-2009, 07:14 AM
GOM = Grumpy Old Man

Gemini
04-02-2009, 07:36 AM
You did the right thing by not escalating the situation. First because beating up an old person, even in self-defense, is a lose-lose. Second, there is a chance that old guy can still hand out ***-whoopins, and getting your *** handed to you by an old man doesn't look a whole lot better than handing his to him. FWIW, I also know several guys at my tennis club who have permits to carry a concealed weapon and keep a pistol in their tennis bag.


To all you young guys who think every 70 year old out there is a pushover I wish you could have met my late uncle. He was a former Army intelligence and security officer and was 6'3" 225 from his mid-20s to his mid-70s and could hand out hand-to-hand ***-whippings with the best of them. Give him an additional implement of destruction, say for example a tennis racquet, and he could be positively scary.

You're right. The original poster did do the right thing by not escalating the situation but I have to disagree that beating up on an "old" person is a lose-lose. If that "old" person is fully-capable of doing me serious harm with his bare hands (and most definitely with a weapon), as you illustrate with your uncle, the greatest thing I potentially have to lose in that altercation is my life.

I never see true self-defense (no matter the age, gender, etc. of my assailant) as a loss when I'm trying to save my own life or at least minimize the damage.

As for the OP, you're a better person than I am in this situation. The fact that this guy battered you after his verbal tirade would've been enough for me to snap on him given my mood as of late.

jrod
04-02-2009, 07:44 AM
Phew just a quick update.

Got a phone call from one of the players I play with to show his support, he almost had a fistfight with this guy 5 or 6 years ago, and he encouraged to keep coming out and play with them, (just not "with" this guy particularly), and told me not to get affected by this bad experience.

So all is good, there is definitely a pattern and that is a little re-assuring to me, I never had a problem with anyone else.

sigh... I take this as experience, that obsession is definitely not a good thing.

Thanks again for the support !

I've had a similar situation occur to me, although it was verbal abuse to a female hitting partner of mine by another male whom I had never played with, but had been invited to hit with on several occassions.

When the verbal abuse happened, he was on the court next to us and was apparently bothered by our presence, and he decided to take it out on my partner. I immediately stopped play, went over to him and told him if he was willing to pay for our court that he could establish the ground rules, otherwise he best mind his own business.

Afterwards, I spoke to the club management about him and learned he had quite a reputation for this sort of thing. He had shown up at my club only after being kicked out of another nearby club for countless accounts of verbal abuse. My club's owners had to move people around to contain the damage caused by this guy and was perilously close to revoking his membership.

Over the course of the next 6 months, the guys hitting partners list kept shrinking, to the point where he simply vanished (I think he moved to a different location, much like a virus moving to a different host after the current host rejects). The moral of the story is these kind of people eventually seal their own fate. I suggest you ask your hitting buddies to adopt a zero-tolerance policy and this guy will either start behaving (unlikely, given that he is 70) or simply go away.

_mats_
04-02-2009, 08:00 AM
Jrod -

I will see what I can do, truth is after posting it here now this thing is consuming me as I think of it all day long.

I might go to the Police station to see what my options are in case he remains belligerent and/or defiant about what happened.

Thanks -

jrod
04-02-2009, 08:21 AM
Jrod -

I will see what I can do, truth is after posting it here now this thing is consuming me as I think of it all day long.

I might go to the Police station to see what my options are in case he remains belligerent and/or defiant about what happened.

Thanks -

I agree. After all, he did assault you so you have every right to understand your options.

Regardless, asking your buddies to institute a zero-tolerance policy should be appealing to them as well. I can't believe anyone could be so hard up to play to tolerate this kind of behavior. There are lots of nice, rational, fun people to play with. Why bother with him at all?

drakulie
04-02-2009, 08:24 AM
any pictures?? videos??? :)

J/k. Sorry to hear about this. Better to just stay away from him. You did the right thing in:

1. not kickiing his *****
2. filing an incident with the police.

good luck.

max
04-02-2009, 08:31 AM
I would not have filed with the police. Why escalate something that's best forgotten? I would have felt sorry for the old guy; there can be a lot of anger built up in people over time when they don't get their way, when there is a lot of negative change (as is happening today), when they believe younger people are overly cushioned, etc. There are many reasons for the anger, not you.

Best to just have left him alone, perhaps feel some pity, but never again play with him. Just a sad situation.

coloskier
04-02-2009, 08:53 AM
The minute he put a finger into my chest, it would have been broken. I don't care how old or young he is. After the headbutt, I'd be in jail and he would be in the hospital (or the morgue). That is the only way you stop bullying.

Aldi Patron
04-02-2009, 09:16 AM
These exact situations are why I always bring a gun to the courts with me. It would've been like the hustling scene from "White Men Can't Jump," with cats scaling fences running away.

To be serious though, I feel for you because you did nothing wrong, but now you have to deal mentally with it and it's obviously affecting you. Don't let this wound your pride, either; you did the right thing.

goober
04-02-2009, 09:24 AM
Next time somebody is two inches away from you screaming in your face, take a defensive posture:)

catfish2424
04-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Wow their are some crazy people out their, I would have pressed charges, the man is crazy and will hurt someone else, that is prety scary though

_mats_
04-02-2009, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the support.

No, it did not affect my pride, I have a flexible ego :)

I know that if I press charges and he ends up in jail I would feel just as bad for him or even worse, I honestly know that.

its just an awful experience either way, we'll see how it goes from now on, ok back to work here and will try and stop checking the thread so I can let it go :) but THANKS for the support guys.

I will post again if something else comes up.

All the best !

onehandbh
04-02-2009, 09:54 AM
Another option. Get him thrown in jail. When the police come to
take him away, hand the headbutter the monopoly card that says:

"Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200"

Ronaldo
04-02-2009, 10:10 AM
I would not have filed with the police. Why escalate something that's best forgotten? I would have felt sorry for the old guy; there can be a lot of anger built up in people over time when they don't get their way, when there is a lot of negative change (as is happening today), when they believe younger people are overly cushioned, etc. There are many reasons for the anger, not you.

Best to just have left him alone, perhaps feel some pity, but never again play with him. Just a sad situation.

That is a good point, never play on a court with him again. At our club members ask who is playing on the court with them. When one name pops up, they refuse to play. Eventually, he stopped being called altogether for dubs.

_mats_
04-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Well, I just found out that he called another player that played with us but left earlier and told him that was his CAP that hit me, making up a lie to save face, he called him right after the incident.

I do not want him to tell everyone that he headbutted me, but did not want him to fabricate lies either, he has to be responsible in a way for what he did, I expected him to remain quiet about it, I do not want this to turn into a case of "your word against my word" now, after what he did.

I have one witness and 3 kids that were playing on the courts who stopped to watch.

What should I do.

jrod
04-02-2009, 12:14 PM
Well, I just found out that he called another player that played with us but left earlier and told him that was his CAP that hit me, making up a lie to save face, he called him right after the incident.

I do not want him to tell everyone that he headbutted me, but did not want him to fabricate lies either, he has to be responsible in a way for what he did, I expected him to remain quiet about it, I do not want this to turn into a case of "your word against my word" now, after what he did.

I have one witness and 3 kids that were playing on the courts who stopped to watch.

What should I do.

Why do you feel compelled to do anything other than let this guy hang himself? The facts speak for themselves. So do his actions. He is the one making a big deal out of it. He is the one making the calls and soliciting support. Quite frankly, given this guy's reputation, it's hard to imagine he has a shred of credibility left among the group of players that tolerate his shenanigans.

Again, I suggest you simply let your playing partners know you prefer not to engage in tennis or any activity with someone who behaves in this way. I suspect they will eventually see it your way and agree with your philosophy.

_mats_
04-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Why do you feel compelled to do anything other than let this guy hang himself? The facts speak for themselves. So do his actions. He is the one making a big deal out of it. He is the one making the calls and soliciting support. Quite frankly, given this guy's reputation, it's hard to imagine he has a shred of credibility left among the group of players that tolerate his shenanigans.

Again, I suggest you simply let your playing partners know you prefer not to engage in tennis or any activity with someone who behaves in this way. I suspect they will eventually see it your way and agree with your philosophy.

I think you are right, yes, I will head over to the courts in 40 mins and see how things develop.

Thanks

aceroberts13
04-02-2009, 12:27 PM
I would have one punched that old fossil.

fastdunn
04-02-2009, 01:49 PM
Well, I just found out that he called another player that played with us but left earlier and told him that was his CAP that hit me, making up a lie to save face, he called him right after the incident.

I do not want him to tell everyone that he headbutted me, but did not want him to fabricate lies either, he has to be responsible in a way for what he did, I expected him to remain quiet about it, I do not want this to turn into a case of "your word against my word" now, after what he did.

I have one witness and 3 kids that were playing on the courts who stopped to watch.

What should I do.

My recommendation is to resolve this now. You seem to hope everything becomes quiet from now. This kinda of thing can haunt you very long time.

Unsual behavior usually signals what state of mind the individual is in. It could be his mental profile or some circumstances he is in.

I think this needs to be dealt with. You resolve it clearly in one way or the other. Otherwise, this guy might re-surface some time later in your life.

_mats_
04-02-2009, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I played today everything went well, he was hitting with someone else and he excluded himself saying "why dont you guys hit singles, ill leave" then other people showed up and we played doubles until it began pouring without him.

I understand what you two say that I should have pressed charges out of respect for the law itself, I also agree on that, that would have been the only reason I would do it at this point, but I am perfectly satisfied with just an incident report on his profile for battery which is a huge precedent should anything would re-surface between him and I or anyone else.

I will head to the police station tomorrow to follow up since they did this over the phone, so they can have a signed statement which is more formal, I will also let them know that this person coaches at a local high school just for information and safety should anything else happen in the future, they may have him attend anger management groups (which might not change anyway).

Once again thanks for following the thread.

skraggle
04-02-2009, 05:16 PM
Its called a nice clean ***** SLAP!!! learn to use it...

Yeah, terrible advice. He goes down, hits his head, and you spend the rest of your life in prison.

That said, you should have called the cops and had him arrested. In this society, you are simply not allowed to strike others without consequences.

Slicendicer
04-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Yeah, terrible advice. He goes down, hits his head, and you spend the rest of your life in prison.

That said, you should have called the cops and had him arrested. In this society, you are simply not allowed to strike others without consequences.


Yeah... I sort of agree with this... 2 wrongs don't make a right...

but 3 lefts do.


I kid, I kid... my philosophy is... I hate cops, so I avoid any situation having to involve cops. If you aren't going to settle it yourself, settle it "with" yourself. So either *****slap (a 70 year old guy??... yes.), or just walk away and avoid this person in the future.

Lefty78
04-02-2009, 07:15 PM
[QUOTE= and did not want to ruin his life either[/QUOTE]

Tough love- sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Should've pressed charges.

Lefty78
04-02-2009, 07:20 PM
I want to add that by not pressing charges you are allowing impressionable youths to be influenced on a daily basis by someone who clearly has anger management issues, and may very well be unstable. It is a public disservice to allow a situation like this to continue.

jrod
04-03-2009, 04:16 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I played today everything went well, he was hitting with someone else and he excluded himself saying "why dont you guys hit singles, ill leave" then other people showed up and we played doubles until it began pouring without him.

I understand what you two say that I should have pressed charges out of respect for the law itself, I also agree on that, that would have been the only reason I would do it at this point, but I am perfectly satisfied with just an incident report on his profile for battery which is a huge precedent should anything would re-surface between him and I or anyone else.

I will head to the police station tomorrow to follow up since they did this over the phone, so they can have a signed statement which is more formal, I will also let them know that this person coaches at a local high school just for information and safety should anything else happen in the future, they may have him attend anger management groups (which might not change anyway).

Once again thanks for following the thread.


Whoa! This is a new piece of data. A HS coach that has a history of abuse and violence? Teaching kids? Serving as a "role model" ?

If I had known this, I would have recommended you press charges. Undoubtedly, he would have lost his job which, quite frankly, is EXACTLY what should happen.

No way in hell would I want a guy like this around my kids, let alone instructing them.

sciwriter
04-03-2009, 04:54 AM
Following through on the incident report is a good idea. Is there anyone at the club who should be notified that the incident report has been filed with police? Should the school be notified as well? Maybe you could suggest to police that the school should be notified.

NE14Tennis?
04-03-2009, 06:21 AM
Well, I just found out that he called another player that played with us but left earlier and told him that was his CAP that hit me, making up a lie to save face, he called him right after the incident.

I do not want him to tell everyone that he headbutted me, but did not want him to fabricate lies either, he has to be responsible in a way for what he did, I expected him to remain quiet about it, I do not want this to turn into a case of "your word against my word" now, after what he did.

I have one witness and 3 kids that were playing on the courts who stopped to watch.

What should I do.

First of all, kudos for being the bigger man (figuratively) and keeping your own anger in check. I would:
1 - Get in touch with the other members of your group and approach him as a group. State the following - "We saw what happened. We don't believe a cap could cause that sort of damage. We will not tolerate nay more of this behavior and the next time this or anything like it happens, we will not play with you any more.
2 - Contact the HS he coaches at and let them know what happened - explain that you don't want to get him trouble, but that someone should keep an eye on him lest he endanger any students.

Good luck. So sorry this has happened.

sureshs
04-03-2009, 06:44 AM
First of all, kudos for being the bigger man (figuratively) and keeping your own anger in check. I would:
1 - Get in touch with the other members of your group and approach him as a group. State the following - "We saw what happened. We don't believe a cap could cause that sort of damage. We will not tolerate nay more of this behavior and the next time this or anything like it happens, we will not play with you any more.
2 - Contact the HS he coaches at and let them know what happened - explain that you don't want to get him trouble, but that someone should keep an eye on him lest he endanger any students.

Good luck. So sorry this has happened.

Interesting. So you guys think that reporting this to the HS is legit? Is there any proof that can be produced to show all this happened? Like eyewitnesses or video? Because if there is none, and it is a he said/he said issue, the old man can bring defamation charges.

Puma
04-03-2009, 06:53 AM
I appreciate the fact that you were able to keep your emotions in check during this conflict. However, I firmly believe you should file charges on this guy. Why?

1. If he has anything to do with HS kids this issue needs to be known by all
2. If he did this to you he will do this to anyone. He could do this to another 70 year old man.
3. He needs to face the consequences for what he did to you. Even if you don't want to be the one to do it to him like lighting us his @ass, let the law do it, thats what they are for.
4. There is no need to get anyone else involved. Your tennis buddies, this aint there problem and they arent going to fix it. This is your problem and its best to let the law handle it. There is no need for your to explain anything to the old guy, schools, students, friends, tennis buddies etc. This happened to you, its your issue.
5. He shouldnt get away with this. This is assualt and battery. Why let someone off the hook for this. He could do this again to anyone. He needs to face the consequences for this.

jrod
04-03-2009, 07:03 AM
Interesting. So you guys think that reporting this to the HS is legit? Is there any proof that can be produced to show all this happened? Like eyewitnesses or video? Because if there is none, and it is a he said/he said issue, the old man can bring defamation charges.

mats stated there were at least 4 witnesses. not sure he can dig them all up, but 1 more is likely all he needs.

I agree, with the information that this guy coaches at a local HS, this needs to be reported to the school and charges filed.

Puma
04-03-2009, 07:04 AM
We have had posts here where some altercation happens and the cameras roll and show us how bystanders just stand by and let something like this happen. We often see, read, hear criticism about those who just stand by and don't do a thing about it. There had been discussion about how nobody cares enough to get involved.

But, in this situation you are your own bystander. Essentially, you have allowed someone to assualt you and you decide to not take any action. This in itself speakes volumes. I am not trying to attack you I am trying to present another perspective for you to view this situation.

What would you have done if he head butted you and then took a couple of swings, you fell down and he kicked you in the groin? Is that ok? Would you feel as if you needed to file charges then? Whats the difference? Well, there may be some difference to you, but in the laws eyes there is not. Either way you were assualted, plain and simple.

Please consider that this man does this to you because of a couple of reasons. One, he is a hot head. Two, he considers he can get away with it. Three, people like him are not newbies to conflict, he knows what he is doing as he has little regard for his fellows.

Letting him off the hook is just a continuation of this problem. Chances are it has happened before and it will happen again. Its time for the old hot head to face up and have to explain his actions and pay the price for picking on someone.

My .02

saram
04-03-2009, 07:11 AM
Just a few more thoughts here for you...

If I remember via reading this thread--it is not the first time he has used bully tactics and intimidated other members at the club--indicating a pattern of bullish behavior and intimidation.

You also mentioned you did not want to ruin his life but pressing charges, but his pattern of behavior is that he will continually do this again to others--and I would bet five bucks that he'll intimidate you again next time you are on the courts.

My father tested defendants as to whether they were criminally insane or not. The key element he looked for was if the defendant knew the difference between right and wrong. This man's words/threats to you to keep your mouth shut indicate he knows he is doing wrong and will continue to do this. If he had no inclination that he was doing wrong--I could understand your thoughts in sheltering him from jail time. But, he obviously knows his behavior is wrong--and SHOULD suffer the consequences of what he did not only physically to you--but verbally with threats of intimidation.

I would bet also, that if you were to poll the players he coaches on the team--that he is like Bobby Knight on steroids when it comes to coaching. Sounds like a horrible selection for HS coach. Having a man that bullies and physically attacks other members of a club on a tennis court is a no-win situation in any way, shape and form.

He is now apparently placing phone calls, covering up his tracks, and trying to duck his behavior and its consequences.

The law is there for one reason--to protect and serve. They need to serve him notice that this behavior is not acceptable in our society--let alone on our tennis courts.

_mats_
04-03-2009, 07:51 AM
Thanks for the support -

I just got back from the Police Station, they told me they did forward this to the prosecutor's office and they will decide whether to take action or not, I agree to what was said here recently too.

The police officer told me I could contact the prosecutor to follow up on the case, I may do that today.

Thanks again -

jrod
04-03-2009, 07:55 AM
Thanks for the support -

I just got back from the Police Station, they told me they did forward this to the prosecutor's office and they will decide whether to take action or not, I agree to what was said here recently too.

The police officer told me I could contact the prosecutor to follow up on the case, I may do that today.

Thanks again -

Did you inform them of the fact he coaches at a local HS? This information should be presented to the school adminstrators in a formal way.

_mats_
04-03-2009, 08:00 AM
I just got off the phone with the prosecutor's office so I talked to a clerk, but she told me I can go and talk to them once they receive the case, this was just this Tue. they said it can take a week.

I will call them again in a week or so to see what the status is and what should I do.

saram
04-03-2009, 08:03 AM
I just got off the phone with the prosecutor's office so I talked to a clerk, but she told me I can go and talk to them once they receive the case, this was just this Tue. they said it can take a week.

I will call them again in a week or so to see what the status is and what should I do.

Keep in mind you don't have to push for the fullest sentence if he were to be found guilty. The fact that the law will be talking some serious talk to him, face a little court time, behavior brought to the surface, etc will surely serve him notice that this is unacceptable.

I think you are handling this perfectly. Please keep us posted on it.

sureshs
04-03-2009, 08:08 AM
We have had posts here where some altercation happens and the cameras roll and show us how bystanders just stand by and let something like this happen. We often see, read, hear criticism about those who just stand by and don't do a thing about it. There had been discussion about how nobody cares enough to get involved.


The litigious society, as well as the violent society, are to blame. There was a time when men would immediately try to stop this sort of thing. There were even Good Samaritan laws requiring them to do so. Nowadays, they are afraid that if they hurt someone, they could be sued, or that the guy will pull out an assault rifle out of his trunk that he carries as his "constitutional right" and shoot everyone in sight. Also as a more practical fact, it is easy to dial the police from a cell phone, which was not possible in the old days.

_mats_
04-03-2009, 08:26 AM
Interesting. So you guys think that reporting this to the HS is legit? Is there any proof that can be produced to show all this happened? Like eyewitnesses or video? Because if there is none, and it is a he said/he said issue, the old man can bring defamation charges.

Hi Suresh -

I would not go to the HS directly to tell all this either, I would mention this in case the police or the prosecutor contacts me, since I do have a 4yr old boy and I would not want him to have a coach that does this either.

Yes, I do have one key witness that was there behind me the whole time and handed me a tissue for me to clean up my blood, and he offered his information and phone number and urged me to call the police, he also said loudly (so that the assailant could hear) "and he did NOT hit you with his cap, that is BS, I saw everything"

I am glad he was there (I had not seen him when this thing started) because if someone tells me this story I would have a hard time believing it, it was that surreal.

Plus there were 4 kids playing on the courts about 30ft away, that stopped playing and came to the fence to see what was going on.

skiracer55
04-03-2009, 09:43 AM
...not a good situation, obviously, but we're talking about a bloody nose, not a drive-by shooting. The fact that it happened on a tennis court is maybe an anomaly, maybe not. Go read the papers. A couple of days back, some dude gunned down a bunch of people in an assisted care facility, or something like that, for Pete's sake.

Mats, you have to deal with it as you see fit. I know how short a fuse I have, I'd have belted the guy and called the cops, and the whole thing would have been over one way or another. He assaulted me, I defended myself, talk to my lawyer. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it, would be my approach. But as some other posters have said, we weren't there, and you have to do whatever you need to do to get closure and drive on.

In a larger sense, doesn't say a whole lot for the state of contemporary tennis, does it? Yeah, I know...this is just an isolated incident. Don't be so sure. Go take a troll through this forum, you'll find a bunch of examples of less than stellar, less than sportsmanlike behavior on the part of a bunch of so-called adults. This kind of nonsense is what caused me to stop playing tennis and go road biking for about 10 years. I'm now back on a tennis court, part of the time, and so far it's been great, but if somebody wants to square off on me like this...wrong answer, Jack. Nobody sticks a finger in my chest, or gives me a coco butt on the tennis court or anywhere else, for that matter. I'll deal with the situation, and then I'll go find something to do other than play this game of tennis...

max
04-03-2009, 09:52 AM
In my experience, it's usually best to avoid lawyers and lawsuits. They consume much more time, energy, emotion and money than a young person might think. You don't stand to gain anything here, but have a lot of potential loss.

Furthermore, the man's to be pitied. Heaping police charges on him won't improve his emotional state. Sometimes turning the other cheek and moving on is the manly thing to do. Be glad you're not him.

Kaptain Karl
04-03-2009, 10:05 AM
In my experience, it's usually best to avoid lawyers and lawsuits. They consume much more time, energy, emotion and money than a young person might think. You don't stand to gain anything here, but have a lot of potential loss.Projecting YOUR bad experience into this situation is not valid. You don't know how the OP's community operates.

I am a HS Coach. I wouldn't want that guy influencing the behavior of kids playing against my kids. I wouldn't want him instructing young people at all. Report him. File charges.

- KK

PimpMyGame
04-03-2009, 10:13 AM
This sounds like it could be the early onset of Alzheimer's or dementia. He may need psychiatric help, not a lawsuit.

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?categoryID=200171&documentID=100&gclid=CIvojYyo1ZkCFQrFGgodbEHvVQ

JoshDragon
04-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Ok, this is an amazing story, this happened to me yesterday and still cannot believe it.

Playing a friendly doubles match like we do every Tue, Thurs and Sats (not league or USTA) with this group.

I played with and against this guy who is approx 70yrs old (im 33), I do not know why but he never liked me, while I never had anything against him.

Anyway he was being negative about everything on my game as usual (this time mostly because I had to give up some balls because of a sprained knee, saying that I should stay home before playing tennis like that and not able to chase some balls otherwise I should not show up to play etc..)

We were playing and a ball was called out, I hit a backhand to the server returning the ball for him to serve, but I mis-timed it and it went to this 70yrs old (it did not even hit him as he put his racquet in front) an honest mistake, I apologized, but he was bent over this.

Thing is at the end the match he says very nervously "you should know what the "F" you are doing etc" and leaves, so I talk to the other players to see if I should go talk to him or not, one advises me to , the other not to.

So, I decided to go and talk to him and assure him it was a mistake, I specifically told him I had nothing against him even though he never liked me (or hated me for some unknown reason).

Things get interesting and he starts shaking and using the S and F word (there were a couple HS kids playing who stopped and came closer to see what was going on).

He then shoves his index in my chest and goes off about some crazy stuff using foul language, just 2 inches from my face.. I tried to get him to calm down and I specifically said "(name here), I want to make friends not enemies" in a very calm voice.. then he said "well you made one today (enemy I assume?) and he headbutted me on the nose.. I stood there motionless in complete awe at what just happened which was vicious and bizarre.

At that point I feel something streaming down I touched it and with the index I showed him blood.. without saying a word, he then knew he screwed up instantly as he said "and don't go telling I headbutted you, that was my "CAP that hit you!!" it was ridiculous.

Another player who happened to be behind me witnessing everything came over and handed me a tissue and offered his phone number, name etc.. and told me I should call the police..

I got home and did so, did not press charges as the officer told me that would put him in jail, but I filed an incident report instead, I didnt want to ruin this guy's life for headbutting me, so the police are going to let him know they know about this and contact my witness(es) since there were other HS kids on the court.

I still have NOTHING against the guy (except that he assaulted me) I honestly feel bad for the guy, who obviously is very unstable, it was an extremely odd situation.

Needless to say I will still have to see him when we play, I will not play with or against him again though, I would politely decline, but I cannot let him bully me out of the fun of tennis and public courts.

BTW, he has had issues with almost any other playing since the 70's.

Had to tell a story, still very shocked (wish it was an Aprils fool joke too!) sadly, it wasnt :cry:

Assuming this story is for real, why were you playing with the guy? :-?

r2473
04-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Personally, I find posters reactions more interesting than the incident itself.

_mats_
04-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Personally, I find posters reactions more interesting than the incident itself.

It is ok, I noticed the same thing, I expected extremely varied responses, from people not believing it, to taking him out on the spot, to not doing anything at all.

I can say I am happy that I took the approach I took, which to me would be in the middle of the extremes.

I want to give it a rest, until the prosecutor office calls me, I said what I had to say to them, I will keep playing with the rest of the group except this person, and await a decision from the prosecutor's office, I am OK with that.

Thanks for the support

sureshs
04-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Hi Suresh -

I would not go to the HS directly to tell all this either, I would mention this in case the police or the prosecutor contacts me, since I do have a 4yr old boy and I would not want him to have a coach that does this either.

Yes, I do have one key witness that was there behind me the whole time and handed me a tissue for me to clean up my blood, and he offered his information and phone number and urged me to call the police, he also said loudly (so that the assailant could hear) "and he did NOT hit you with his cap, that is BS, I saw everything"

I am glad he was there (I had not seen him when this thing started) because if someone tells me this story I would have a hard time believing it, it was that surreal.

Plus there were 4 kids playing on the courts about 30ft away, that stopped playing and came to the fence to see what was going on.

So you will let the police decide whether they want to contact the HS?

What is the general feeling on this? Should you do it or leave it to the authorities?

JoshDragon
04-03-2009, 12:07 PM
It is ok, I noticed the same thing, I expected extremely varied responses, from people not believing it, to taking him out on the spot, to not doing anything at all.

I can say I am happy that I took the approach I took, which to me would be in the middle of the extremes.

I want to give it a rest, until the prosecutor office calls me, I said what I had to say to them, I will keep playing with the rest of the group except this person, and await a decision from the prosecutor's office, I am OK with that.

Thanks for the support

Why were you playing with the 70 year old guy if you knew that he didn't like you?

_mats_
04-03-2009, 12:08 PM
I left it to the prosecutor to decide if they want to pursue this, it is up to them, the way I interpreted what they said.

If they move forward he will very likely be convicted (which is what the first officer told me over the phone would happen if I pressed charges), so the HS will obviously be notified.

Other than that if the prosecutor decides not to pursue, I will approach the police to let them know my concern about him coaching kids, but from what they told me it could take one or two weeks until they make all these decisions.

The first officer wanted me to acknowledge that I understood that he WILL go to jail if I pressed charges, so they obviously think it is more serious than I thought.

It is up to them now, I will await and keep doing my thing and avoid him, he already avoided me Thursday, I assume the police obviously contacted him already.

Thanks Suresh

_mats_
04-03-2009, 12:10 PM
Why were you playing with the 70 year old guy if you knew that he didn't like you?

Josh -

He was our summer league captain team, everyone agrees that he picks on my on a constant basis, I just kept playing with everyone, and he is there all the time.

I did not want to make a fuss about not playing with someone in particular, I shrugged all of his antics all the time, since it was all harmless, up to this point obviously.

sureshs
04-03-2009, 12:11 PM
Also keep in mind that if you go to a doctor now or later re: your injury, and you have health insurance, the company could come back and ask you for the circumstances. They may urge you to file a lawsuit to recover expenses or may do so themselves. My son fell and hurt himself in school once, and the insurance company made me fill up a form about the circumstances so they could decide whether the school needed to be sued. I gave minimal details and they never pursued it. But if it had turned out that there was something negligent about the school maintenance, they probably would have.

JoshDragon
04-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Josh -

He was our summer league captain team, everyone agrees that he picks on my on a constant basis, I just kept playing with everyone, and he is there all the time.

I did not want to make a fuss about not playing with someone in particular, I shrugged all of his antics all the time, since it was all harmless, up to this point obviously.

Ok, thank you for explaining. I think you handled the situation pretty well, considering how he reacted.

sureshs
04-03-2009, 12:19 PM
I left it to the prosecutor to decide if they want to pursue this, it is up to them, the way I interpreted what they said.

If they move forward he will very likely be convicted (which is what the first officer told me over the phone would happen if I pressed charges), so the HS will obviously be notified.

Other than that if the prosecutor decides not to pursue, I will approach the police to let them know my concern about him coaching kids, but from what they told me it could take one or two weeks until they make all these decisions.

The first officer wanted me to acknowledge that I understood that he WILL go to jail if I pressed charges, so they obviously think it is more serious than I thought.

It is up to them now, I will await and keep doing my thing and avoid him, he already avoided me Thursday, I assume the police obviously contacted him already.

Thanks Suresh

That was good. There are some people who would like to take the law into their hands and ruin somebody's life.

These things can get serious. A fight broke out in the parking lot of our club over parking space a couple of years ago. The member was a federal officer of some type. He threatened the other guy with consequences and that guy backed away. Later this guy told someone that he had noted the guy's plate and entered him in a federal database as a possible drug trafficker. When he was asked how he drew the conclusion from a parking lot incident, he said it is my judgement call, and that guy will have a hell of a time flying because he will be flagged in every airport. We were stunned by this abuse of power. I realized how bad things would be in a more serious situation where feds have practically unchecked authority. A few months ago, this federal officer got into a fist fight while playing doubles with a partner who had informed him that he was under medical treatment and could not move fast. This guy went on abusing him every point and it ended up in the parking lot. He has been told by the guys he played with not to show up any more and he hasn't. His membership is still valid because his son plays at the club.

Gemini
04-03-2009, 12:46 PM
That was good. There are some people who would like to take the law into their hands and ruin somebody's life.

These things can get serious. A fight broke out in the parking lot of our club over parking space a couple of years ago. The member was a federal officer of some type. He threatened the other guy with consequences and that guy backed away. Later this guy told someone that he had noted the guy's plate and entered him in a federal database as a possible drug trafficker. When he was asked how he drew the conclusion from a parking lot incident, he said it is my judgement call, and that guy will have a hell of a time flying because he will be flagged in every airport. We were stunned by this abuse of power. I realized how bad things would be in a more serious situation where feds have practically unchecked authority. A few months ago, this federal officer got into a fist fight while playing doubles with a partner who had informed him that he was under medical treatment and could not move fast. This guy went on abusing him every point and it ended up in the parking lot. He has been told by the guys he played with not to show up any more and he hasn't. His membership is still valid because his son plays at the club.

If it's ever discovered by a superior of the federal officer's (one that's not going to let an abuse of power like that go unpunished), he's potentially going to lose his job and/or be looking a jail time for fraud.

sureshs
04-03-2009, 12:50 PM
If it's ever discovered by a superior of the federal officer's (one that's not going to let an abuse of power like that go unpunished), he's potentially going to lose his job and/or be looking a jail time for fraud.

The person he told this to told me she could not tell if he was serious or bragging so she didn't take any action. I would hope that there are checks to prevent this sort of abuse of power. But after 9/11 and because of the drug laws, I am not very confident. There are also people who are reported as sex offenders for no reason, people who have bogus domestic abuse charges filed against them, and in the aftermath of 9/11 simply reported for suspicion if they looked like an Arab. In these cases, the law allows immediate action and legal redress later.

gflyer
04-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Moonbat, my nose is just fine, it just bled a little bit on the spot, thats the reason this unknown player came over with a tissue and help.

Onehandbh, I looked it up and battery could land from 2 to 5 years in jail though, it was too much, I did not know this until I called the Police and the officer confirmed this and wanted me to acknowledge it, it seemed harsh, but at the same time he cant go around doing this and not expecting consequences, so I thought the incident report was good enough, with a police visit and that staying on the record.

I there is a minor incident from now on I have that as a precedent.

Thanks for the comments -
You did the right thing.

TennisCoachFLA
04-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

maverick66
04-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

so lets say he hits him back. now you have a fight in a parking lot with all kinds of things you could fall on and seriously mess yourself or him up. or you could be intelligent about it and diffuse the situation and deal with it like an adult. im all for standing ones ground but there is a smart way and a dumb way. fighting a 70 yo man in a parking lot is not the smart way. so beccuase you wanted to be a tough guy you now put yourself in a no win situation. if you beat him to a pulp and seriously hurt him your going to be arrested and have alot of issues. and dont try he hit me first because once your able to get away from him its no longer self defense.

Kaptain Karl
04-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I must be from a different time and place....Yeah. It used to be a lot more simple.

That "neighborhood" time and place is gone. (I'd still rather not have a guy like that coaching the boys in HS.)

- KK

r2473
04-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

That was my thought.

That is why I thought posters reactions were interesting.

WBF
04-03-2009, 02:03 PM
I understand your reaction (not pressing charges), but given your knowledge that he works with kids, I think pressing charges or following up with the school would have been appropriate.

sciwriter
04-04-2009, 05:41 AM
TennisCoachFLA

Yes, you are from a different time and place.

I am probably also from your time and a similar place, and the old behaviors of physically standing up for yourself don't work anymore in today's culture. The old behaviors are still effective and required in really rough neighborhoods or ghettos but not anywhere else.

Police and courts take a much harder line against aggressive, bullying behavior in schools and workplaces than they once did, and that's a great improvement. There are legal actions available against bullies. But it can be confusing to older men who grew up with the notion that if anyone messes with you, you take matters into your own hands immediately.

The OP did the right thing and continues to do the right thing.


Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

Geezer Guy
04-05-2009, 09:11 AM
You've got to hand it to a 70 year-old that will take it to a 33 year-old. The old guy has stones. (Admitedly, they may be in his head.)

Still, the way to stand up to a bully is to stand up. Not back down. Not necessarily a full-out beat-down, but you've got a right to defend yourself.
You're EXPECTED to defend yourself - not roll over. A bully deserves to be put in his place. It's for the good of the bully, and his next victim.

saram
04-05-2009, 04:36 PM
You've got to hand it to a 70 year-old that will take it to a 33 year-old. The old guy has stones. (Admitedly, they may be in his head.)

Still, the way to stand up to a bully is to stand up. Not back down. Not necessarily a full-out beat-down, but you've got a right to defend yourself.
You're EXPECTED to defend yourself - not roll over. A bully deserves to be put in his place. It's for the good of the bully, and his next victim.

Yes, a bully that physically hits/assaults someone does deserve to be put in their place--jail.

The 33 year old in this story has a four year old child and does not need to get into a fight. No need for two to go to jail. And, the four year old needs their daddy out of jail.

You sure can learn a lot about people by how they reply to this thread.

Sometimes, the stronger man just walks away--and does not raise a fist because he "should".....

beernutz
04-06-2009, 10:00 AM
Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

I think you are definitely from another place. As to another time, you don't indicate how old you are but I just turned 50 and have been playing tennis since I was 10 and I don't know anyone who thinks the way you do. Headbutting someone because they attempted to explain that their hitting a tennis ball at you was accidental is not part of any 'guy code' I've ever heard of. Personally, I think it took a great deal of will power not to retaliate against 'old guy' after the headbutt and the OP should be commended for that. My instinct on getting head butted would be to take the person to the ground and dislocate something but we'd all probably end up in a messy civil suit as a result and who the heck needs that?

As to calling the cops, I probably wouldn't have done that but OP was well within his rights to make that decision. Old guy has got to reap what he sows.

beernutz
04-06-2009, 10:03 AM
You've got to hand it to a 70 year-old that will take it to a 33 year-old. The old guy has stones. (Admitedly, they may be in his head.)

Still, the way to stand up to a bully is to stand up. Not back down. Not necessarily a full-out beat-down, but you've got a right to defend yourself.
You're EXPECTED to defend yourself - not roll over. A bully deserves to be put in his place. It's for the good of the bully, and his next victim.

The only problem with that is I've known some bullies who could kick serious ***.

mental midget
04-06-2009, 10:17 AM
33yo v. a 70 yo. highly unlikely the OP was worried about being 'bullied.'

let's say he fights back-shoves the guy, maybe punches him. the guy is 70 YEARS OLD. maybe he has a heart attack. maybe he stumbles and breaks his hip. worth it? seriously?

it's recreational tennis, not clan of the cave bear. might as well run a jaywalker over to remind them of proper traffic safety protocol.

rjkardo
04-06-2009, 10:24 AM
I left it to the prosecutor to decide if they want to pursue this, it is up to them, the way I interpreted what they said.

If they move forward he will very likely be convicted (which is what the first officer told me over the phone would happen if I pressed charges), so the HS will obviously be notified.

Other than that if the prosecutor decides not to pursue, I will approach the police to let them know my concern about him coaching kids, but from what they told me it could take one or two weeks until they make all these decisions.

The first officer wanted me to acknowledge that I understood that he WILL go to jail if I pressed charges, so they obviously think it is more serious than I thought.

It is up to them now, I will await and keep doing my thing and avoid him, he already avoided me Thursday, I assume the police obviously contacted him already.

Thanks Suresh

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the cap more...
The guys defense, which he has called and told other people, is that he hit you with his cap? What difference does it make? He hit you, he drew blood. Cap or head or fist, what difference does it make?

rjkardo

NineMileSkid
04-06-2009, 11:12 AM
What is it with old guys and head butts? If I had a dollar for everytime I've been headbutted by a retiree, I swear I could retire too.

burosky
04-06-2009, 11:49 AM
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the cap more...
The guys defense, which he has called and told other people, is that he hit you with his cap? What difference does it make? He hit you, he drew blood. Cap or head or fist, what difference does it make?

rjkardo

Sure, big difference! Just like if you were to get hit by a pillow that was tied in front of a speeding car. Even if you die or seriously get hurt, the fact remains that you were hit by a pillow. The pillow would not have caused your death or injury.

You know I'm just kidding! :)

Kaptain Karl
04-06-2009, 12:53 PM
If I had a dollar for everytime I've been headbutted by a retiree, I swear I could retire too.You get in numerous altercations with senior citizens? Hmm....

- KK

Geezer Guy
04-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Oh yeah - I've taken out NineMileSkid a couple of times.

I remember one time he mouthed off to my grandpa, and Gramps dropped him like a fly.

onehandbh
04-06-2009, 01:32 PM
What kind of cap was he wearing? Was it a hard hat or
a made of metal?

BorisBeckerFan
04-06-2009, 03:15 PM
I commend you for keeping your cool. The guy is 70 and it may possible that guy has been through something others may not be aware of. You definitely did the right thing in calling the Police. It's for his own safety. Next time he may do that to somebody who doesn't care that he's 70 and lays a beat down on him. If he knows the Police is aware of this it may help prevent further attacks. You did the manly, thing there was nothing to prove in that situation.

maverick66
04-06-2009, 03:46 PM
unless he has prior arrests he wont go to jail. he will get banned from coaching and probally not allowed in or near the highschool but he will not go to jail. first time offenders very rarely do jail time especially seems your ok. he gave you a bloody nose thats it. i agree he was acting like a jackass but he didnt cause you serious harm. most i could see happening is anger management classes and some community service. dont worry about him going to jail.

Kaptain Karl
04-06-2009, 04:07 PM
unless he has prior arrests he wont go to jail. he will get banned from coaching and probally not allowed in or near the highschool but he will not go to jail. first time offenders very rarely do jail time especially seems your ok. he gave you a bloody nose thats it. And where did you get your Law Degree?

I think this must vary by municipality. In my neck of the woods if you bruise or draw blood -- and the Officers see the bruise or blood -- you WILL go to jail and await Arraignment.

- KK

saram
04-06-2009, 06:03 PM
And where did you get your Law Degree?

I think this must vary by municipality. In my neck of the woods if you bruise or draw blood -- and the Officers see the bruise or blood -- you WILL go to jail and await Arraignment.

- KK

True! I had a cousin (in-law) that was being abused by his father. The young lad came to my house for protection and I called the law. When they arrived--the young man told his story of his father kicking him. No blood was drawn, no bruising--just a statement. The father was taken to jail and arraigned the following morning. The law does not mess around with assault and or battery.

maverick66
04-06-2009, 06:09 PM
getting arrested and waiting arraignment is different than going to jail. when you go to jail your doing months or years. and he wouldnt do that. he would get out on bail and get anger management and community service.

i had a friend who pulled a knife on someone and got arrested for assualt with a weapon. he had no priors so they sent him to anger management and community service since it was his first arrest. unless you seriously hurt someone with an assualt your not looking at jail time.

Kaptain Karl
04-06-2009, 07:02 PM
getting arrested and waiting arraignment is different than going to jail.Where do perps wait for arraignment in your municipality? Here they wait in ... JAIL.

when you go to jail your doing months or years.See above question.

and he wouldnt do that. he would get out on bail and get anger management and community service.Where is your Law Degree from again?

unless you seriously hurt someone with an assualt your not looking at jail time.You keep asserting this ... but you have not cited any statute or code to support your claim. (And I doubt you have a JD.)


** ** ** ** **
Talk Tennis National Meet-up Go to this thread (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=250100) and vote on a city ... choose a date ... volunteer your services. Let's see how many HUNDRED TT-ers we can draw to a great time of socializing, tennis, maybe even clinics, fun, tennis, visiting, tennis and FUN!

Hurry! The location vote ENDS soon!

** ** ** ** **

- KK

maverick66
04-06-2009, 07:11 PM
im sorry common sense doesnt apply here?

he didnt seriously injure anyone. he gave a guy a bloody nose. there not gonna give you serious jail time for that unless you have had prior arrests.

LordofdaStrings
04-06-2009, 07:16 PM
I have a 70 something yr old client who I barely know is just like that....he tells me not to be tooo nice to him or else he would run me over (bully) with his opinions....so I would make fun of him and things are well...In your situation, I respect your patience and manners, just avoid and don't expect from the guy...

saram
04-06-2009, 07:17 PM
im sorry common sense doesnt apply here?

he didnt seriously injure anyone. he gave a guy a bloody nose. there not gonna give you serious jail time for that unless you have had prior arrests.

There is a set law established. They do not just base it off of 'harm done'. Assault/battery is based off of other things than the amount of blood drawn.

For example--if I try and stick someone with a knife and completely miss, or try and shoot them with a gun and completely miss--does that mean I have not attempted to do anything and avoid jail time all together?

"Common sense" does not apply here when it comes to intended assault/battery....

saram
04-06-2009, 07:18 PM
BTW--to the OP...I know EXACTLY what school you are referring to with the older gentleman and coaching. I lived in Kitsap County for quite a lengthy period of time....

maverick66
04-06-2009, 07:20 PM
he hit someone. he didnt use a gun or a knife. so your examples dont work here. i had a friend actually pull a knife and he didnt get jail time. sure he had to sit in a cell in a police station until his family bailed him out but he didnt have to serve jail time. there is very little chance of him serving jail time in this case. unless he has prior arrests hes not going to do jail time.

saram
04-06-2009, 09:32 PM
he hit someone. he didnt use a gun or a knife. so your examples dont work here. i had a friend actually pull a knife and he didnt get jail time. sure he had to sit in a cell in a police station until his family bailed him out but he didnt have to serve jail time. there is very little chance of him serving jail time in this case. unless he has prior arrests hes not going to do jail time.

My examples DO work here. It is the INTENT of the harm--not the result of the intent.

Which is why we have laws governing 'intent'....

maverick66
04-06-2009, 09:40 PM
no your examples dont work. you said if you tried to shoot him and missed and if you swiped with a knife. he didnt use a single weapon. that makes a difference. assault and battery with a deadly weapon is not the same as assault and battery.

Bud
04-07-2009, 01:04 AM
Ok, this is an amazing story, this happened to me yesterday and still cannot believe it.

Playing a friendly doubles match like we do every Tue, Thurs and Sats (not league or USTA) with this group.

I played with and against this guy who is approx 70yrs old (im 33), I do not know why but he never liked me, while I never had anything against him.

Anyway he was being negative about everything on my game as usual (this time mostly because I had to give up some balls because of a sprained knee, saying that I should stay home before playing tennis like that and not able to chase some balls otherwise I should not show up to play etc..)

We were playing and a ball was called out, I hit a backhand to the server returning the ball for him to serve, but I mis-timed it and it went to this 70yrs old (it did not even hit him as he put his racquet in front) an honest mistake, I apologized, but he was bent over this.

Thing is at the end the match he says very nervously "you should know what the "F" you are doing etc" and leaves, so I talk to the other players to see if I should go talk to him or not, one advises me to , the other not to.

So, I decided to go and talk to him and assure him it was a mistake, I specifically told him I had nothing against him even though he never liked me (or hated me for some unknown reason).

Things get interesting and he starts shaking and using the S and F word (there were a couple HS kids playing who stopped and came closer to see what was going on).

He then shoves his index in my chest and goes off about some crazy stuff using foul language, just 2 inches from my face.. I tried to get him to calm down and I specifically said "(name here), I want to make friends not enemies" in a very calm voice.. then he said "well you made one today (enemy I assume?) and he headbutted me on the nose.. I stood there motionless in complete awe at what just happened which was vicious and bizarre.

At that point I feel something streaming down I touched it and with the index I showed him blood.. without saying a word, he then knew he screwed up instantly as he said "and don't go telling I headbutted you, that was my "CAP that hit you!!" it was ridiculous.

Another player who happened to be behind me witnessing everything came over and handed me a tissue and offered his phone number, name etc.. and told me I should call the police..

I got home and did so, did not press charges as the officer told me that would put him in jail, but I filed an incident report instead, I didnt want to ruin this guy's life for headbutting me, so the police are going to let him know they know about this and contact my witness(es) since there were other HS kids on the court.

I still have NOTHING against the guy (except that he assaulted me) I honestly feel bad for the guy, who obviously is very unstable, it was an extremely odd situation.

Needless to say I will still have to see him when we play, I will not play with or against him again though, I would politely decline, but I cannot let him bully me out of the fun of tennis and public courts.

BTW, he has had issues with almost any other playing since the 70's.

Had to tell a story, still very shocked (wish it was an Aprils fool joke too!) sadly, it wasnt :cry:

If you were smart you would have done the proper thing and had him placed in jail (like the officer told you). Stop being a 'nice guy'. The other guy, regardless of his age, viciously assaulted you. He was probably doing the same thing to others for his entire miserable life. Now, because no one ever did anything about it in the past... he's bullying you at 70 years old!

beernutz
04-07-2009, 08:01 AM
im sorry common sense doesnt apply here?

he didnt seriously injure anyone. he gave a guy a bloody nose. there not gonna give you serious jail time for that unless you have had prior arrests.

No, I can guarantee you that common sense often does not apply in judicial proceedings and you should just stop attempting to give uninformed legal advice based on it. For the record I don't have a law degree but a good friend of mine often testifies as an expert witness in computer forensics at both the state and federal level for both the prosecution and defense and could tell you stories of our 'justice' system that would make you cry.

Also, I don't know about you, but for me *any* jail time is serious.

FWIW, I rarely take legal advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between "there" and "their" or "your" and "you're".

maverick66
04-07-2009, 01:06 PM
im not giving legal advice. im telling him what has happened with friends of mine. they did worse than headbutting and did not serve any jail time. and jail time isnt when you get detained in the first place. jail time is after your sentenced by a judge.

NineMileSkid
04-07-2009, 01:37 PM
You get in numerous altercations with senior citizens? Hmm....

- KK

And I suppose you don't.

10sfreak
04-07-2009, 02:17 PM
im not giving legal advice. im telling him what has happened with friends of mine. they did worse than headbutting and did not serve any jail time. and jail time isnt when you get detained in the first place. jail time is after your sentenced by a judge.
Mav, just because you don't get sentenced to any jail time doesn't mean you don't go to jail. Upon being arrested, he would go to jail and await his arraignment and bail hearing. What if the charges aren't dropped, and he can't make bail, guess where he's going to be staying for a while? Yep, you guessed it, JAIL! He'll remain there until his trial.
But regardless, either way, if the OP had pressed charges (as I think he should have), then the old geezer would definitely have gone to jail. He might not have remained there for very long, but he would have gone to jail. Period.
Btw, no, I do not have a law degree - I just watch a lot of "Law & Order":)!
Seriously, it sounds like you're basically arguing over semantics - what's "going to jail" vs. "getting jail time".

Ronaldo
04-07-2009, 07:14 PM
A coward dies a thousand times before his death. The valiant tastes of death but once. Move on.

Kaptain Karl
04-07-2009, 07:36 PM
And I suppose you don't.Who's been talking to you about me??? (I was acquitted of most of those charges, you know.)

- KK

Netbudda
04-08-2009, 02:50 AM
The only thing I would have done different in your situation is that I would not have gone that same day to offer him an explanation or apology. I would have waited until the following week or I would have called him on the phone. I would have allowed him plenty of time to cool off..I believe you are a lucky guy since a nutcase like that can ruin your life in a second specially if they are packing heat. You knew he had a temper, you knew he was rattled and still you went into his personal space when he was at boiling point, the rest is history, you get an "F" here. When someone is ****ed off you should use the radiation exposure principle ( Minimize Time - Maximize Distance - Use Shielding ) Difuse the situation. I commend you for your non violent approach you get an A+ here.

Frank Silbermann
04-08-2009, 04:06 AM
The litigious society, as well as the violent society, are to blame. There was a time when men would immediately try to stop this sort of thing. There were even Good Samaritan laws requiring them to do so. Nowadays, they are afraid that if they hurt someone, they could be sued, or that the guy will pull out an assault rifle out of his trunk that he carries as his "constitutional right" and shoot everyone in sight. Yeah, when I was a kid we only had to worry about they guy having a scoped, Remington or lever-action Winchester in the trunk and using it to shoot everyone in sight.

r2473
04-09-2009, 10:08 AM
The litigious society, as well as the violent society, are to blame. There was a time when men would immediately try to stop this sort of thing. There were even Good Samaritan laws requiring them to do so. Nowadays............

Every generation harkens back to "the good old days" when people were just plain better.

My advice is for you to just wait 10 to 20 years and these will be the "good old days"...........

mrw
04-10-2009, 08:58 AM
There are conditions like onset of Alzheimers and Parkinsons where behavior can change and old people act stubbornly and belligerently.

Let it go.


That might be the case. It doesn't sound like normal behavior. So, maybe if you have him arrested, the court will force him to get a psych evaluation. The down side is you at 33 would have to testify that you got your clock cleaned by a 70 year old

sureshs
04-10-2009, 01:15 PM
Yeah, when I was a kid we only had to worry about they guy having a scoped, Remington or lever-action Winchester in the trunk and using it to shoot everyone in sight.

Every generation harkens back to "the good old days" when people were just plain better.

My advice is for you to just wait 10 to 20 years and these will be the "good old days"...........

I didn't say people were better. They were actually worse. I said circumstances were different.

sureshs
04-10-2009, 01:19 PM
im not giving legal advice. im telling him what has happened with friends of mine. they did worse than headbutting and did not serve any jail time. and jail time isnt when you get detained in the first place. jail time is after your sentenced by a judge.

I agree. He is unlikely to face any significant time in jail. The domestic abuse and knife and gun examples cited so far are far more serious than this and do not compare.

I would suggest another route to the OP. See if he is a rich guy, and file a lawsuit for trauma and all that. When he pays you off, send me a share of the money.

_mats_
04-29-2009, 10:29 AM
OK all done and settled,

Just talked to the prosecutor's office and had a long chat, and I am perfectly fine with the outcome.

I still decided not to press charges, and this will leave a precedent on his record, should "anything" occur with him and any other person this is a precedent for them to take action.

She told me I could contact the HS personally to let them know of the incident, but it cannot be done through their office, but she said doing so is perfectly fine too.

Thanks for the support and enjoy tennis !

_mats_
04-29-2009, 10:31 AM
BTW--to the OP...I know EXACTLY what school you are referring to with the older gentleman and coaching. I lived in Kitsap County for quite a lengthy period of time....

Wow Saram.

Ok, you know who he is then.

The prosecutor was very nice to me on the phone and after all this is done I can get it off my chest.

Thanks again !

_mats_
04-29-2009, 10:41 AM
The only thing I would have done different in your situation is that I would not have gone that same day to offer him an explanation or apology. I would have waited until the following week or I would have called him on the phone. I would have allowed him plenty of time to cool off..I believe you are a lucky guy since a nutcase like that can ruin your life in a second specially if they are packing heat. You knew he had a temper, you knew he was rattled and still you went into his personal space when he was at boiling point, the rest is history, you get an "F" here. When someone is ****ed off you should use the radiation exposure principle ( Minimize Time - Maximize Distance - Use Shielding ) Difuse the situation. I commend you for your non violent approach you get an A+ here.

I agree on the time/distance comment, lesson learned !

thanks

sureshs
04-29-2009, 11:32 AM
OK all done and settled,

Just talked to the prosecutor's office and had a long chat, and I am perfectly fine with the outcome.

I still decided not to press charges, and this will leave a precedent on his record, should "anything" occur with him and any other person this is a precedent for them to take action.

She told me I could contact the HS personally to let them know of the incident, but it cannot be done through their office, but she said doing so is perfectly fine too.

Thanks for the support and enjoy tennis !

So basically no jail time for him, as some of us were saying all along. The police have better things to do with their time - real dangerous guys around all the time.

maverick66
04-29-2009, 11:41 AM
told you they were not gonna do much. he probally will lose his job at the highschool if they are informed but thats about it. all it means is he has to stay out of trouble for a little bit. thats it.

Ronaldo
04-29-2009, 11:46 AM
And mats has a new best friend forever. Watchyerback

beernutz
04-29-2009, 12:32 PM
So basically no jail time for him, as some of us were saying all along. The police have better things to do with their time - real dangerous guys around all the time.

Did you read the part about "I decided not to press charges"?

sureshs
04-29-2009, 12:36 PM
Did you read the part about "I decided not to press charges"?

That would factor into the overall picture. The fact that he did not press charges says he weighed the circumstances and decided not to. If he felt it was serious enough, he would have.

nhat8121
04-29-2009, 12:40 PM
I read ppl saying how calm the OP was...and that they probably couldn't have done the same. Seriously? You would beat up the 70 years old man?

maverick66
04-29-2009, 01:09 PM
if someone draws blood off of me i dont know how calm i would be. no matter the age. i might hit him back. cant guarantee i wouldnt.

Tennisman912
04-29-2009, 01:41 PM
Mav66,

Exactly the response we would expect from a HS kid. When you are 35 with kids you might have a different perspective. By that time you will realize how little you knew when you were in HS/college (hopefully). Good luck with your future law career. :)

I hope you talk to the school mats.
Good tennis

TM

ODYSSEY Mk.4
04-29-2009, 01:51 PM
if someone draws blood off of me i dont know how calm i would be. no matter the age. i might hit him back. cant guarantee i wouldnt.
kinda with you on this one, someone wants to play ball...let's play...
Mav66,

Exactly the response we would expect from a HS kid. When you are 35 with kids you might have a different perspective. Good luck with your future law career.

Good tennis

TM
well some of us are simply more willing to take a punch then others. It's not an ego thing; but ill chalk mine up to self respect. I respect myself enough not to take a punch or major disrespect (spitting, shoving ect.) from most people.

Tennisman912
04-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Odyssey Mk. 4,

With all due respect, it is about your ego. I don't have to beat up a 70 old to feel like a man or to feel better about myself. In today's society, to do so opens oneself to many potential problems already mentioned. Adults think about the consequences of their actions (ok, most of them). When you lay him out with one shot, he then falls down and breaks his hip, then sues you, you probably won't get much sympathy even if he deserved it. If I have a real fear for my life or safety, that is different but that is not necessarily the case here.

Having said that, it would be very difficult not to do something and I like to think I would not as well. But him knowing that I had a hand in him losing his coaching gig because he was irresponsible is more than enough to me. He probably lives for it. And to be clear, we are not informing the school about their future possible liabilities to get the best of him or for personal reasons. We are doing what we think is best for all the kids he has influence over and what is best for them.

I also would not want him involved with my kids and supposedly teaching them about what they need to learn growing up: responsibility, maturity, respect for others, that you can't get your panties in a bunch every time you run into difficult people and so on.

It is not my place to second guess someone after the fact as I think he handled himself quite admirably and showed more restraint and responsibility than many might have.

Good tennis

TM

maverick66
04-29-2009, 02:50 PM
Mav66,

Exactly the response we would expect from a HS kid. When you are 35 with kids you might have a different perspective. By that time you will realize how little you knew when you were in HS/college (hopefully). Good luck with your future law career. :)

I hope you talk to the school mats.
Good tennis

TM

im not in highschool. its easy to say i wouldnt retaliate because its an old man but at that moment thats the last thing im thinking about. first thought is wow i just got hit. second thought is do something about it. whether that be hit back or call police. i would like to say call police but most likely hes getting hit back. sorry we cant all be nice sensitive men like you.

nhat8121
04-29-2009, 03:30 PM
lol somebody needs some anger management ahah

do you close your eyes when you think? does that 70 years old man standing in front of you not cross your mind?

imalil2gangsta4u
04-29-2009, 03:40 PM
7 or 70, he would have got dropped. sorry but if you have sense enough to know you were wrong for doing it, that you are responsibile for what you do.

nhat8121
04-29-2009, 03:56 PM
now, that's a man.

10sfreak
04-29-2009, 06:50 PM
tennisman912 and nhat8121, I think what a lot of people mean when they write that they probably would have hit the old man back is that, due to simple reflex, it would be hard not to hit someone who has just headbutted you and drawn blood. I may feel bad about it afterward, but I really can't say for sure that I wouldn't have struck back, simply out of a reflexive action from being hit.

maverick66
04-29-2009, 06:52 PM
do you close your eyes when you think? does that 70 years old man standing in front of you not cross your mind?

after he just hit me in the face his age goes out the window.

Steady Eddy
04-29-2009, 07:56 PM
I think the guy is crazy, not just a jerk, but out of his mind. How can you get anywhere with someone this irrational? I think most people would not have assaulted him. You'd be too shocked to react. This hostility is coming out of nowhere...and he's old. The thing is, what do you do now? You'll never work things out with this guy, he's nuts. Maybe he has dimensia, and it's making him this way, but he makes no sense. I wouldn't want to see him again. Some guy in AZ brought a gun to a homeowner's assoc. meeting and started shooting everyone. Maybe he's like that? Stay away from him. If he doesn't play tennis there anymore, good! If he shows up while you're playing, I'd leave. Nothing to be gained here.

ODYSSEY Mk.4
04-29-2009, 08:00 PM
Odyssey Mk. 4,

With all due respect, it is about your ego. I don't have to beat up a 70 old to feel like a man or to feel better about myself. In today's society, to do so opens oneself to many potential problems already mentioned. Adults think about the consequences of their actions (ok, most of them). When you lay him out with one shot, he then falls down and breaks his hip, then sues you, you probably won't get much sympathy even if he deserved it. If I have a real fear for my life or safety, that is different but that is not necessarily the case here.
TM
Id think about it first, I'm an adult he hit first ill call self defense. I feel as I'm in danger. Its not ego I don't walk around slapping around everyone smaller than me, I'm just the kind of person who's not afraid to stand up for myself or others. I wasn't raised to hit first, but I was raised if I get hit first I'll end it! Old man,midget I don't care...you wave a red flag in front of a bull don't be surprised...

Bud
04-29-2009, 08:09 PM
Odyssey Mk. 4,

With all due respect, it is about your ego. I don't have to beat up a 70 old to feel like a man or to feel better about myself. In today's society, to do so opens oneself to many potential problems already mentioned. Adults think about the consequences of their actions (ok, most of them). When you lay him out with one shot, he then falls down and breaks his hip, then sues you, you probably won't get much sympathy even if he deserved it. If I have a real fear for my life or safety, that is different but that is not necessarily the case here.

Having said that, it would be very difficult not to do something and I like to think I would not as well. But him knowing that I had a hand in him losing his coaching gig because he was irresponsible is more than enough to me. He probably lives for it. And to be clear, we are not informing the school about their future possible liabilities to get the best of him or for personal reasons. We are doing what we think is best for all the kids he has influence over and what is best for them.

I also would not want him involved with my kids and supposedly teaching them about what they need to learn growing up: responsibility, maturity, respect for others, that you can't get your panties in a bunch every time you run into difficult people and so on.

It is not my place to second guess someone after the fact as I think he handled himself quite admirably and showed more restraint and responsibility than many might have.

Good tennis

TM

So, you'd do nothing if a 70 yo guy headbutted you and possibly broke your nose?

What exactly would it take for you to defend yourself?

It has nothing to do with ego or 'feeling like a man'. It's called self-respect.

IMO, If he's man enough to hit, he's man enough to be hit back.

Tennisman912
04-29-2009, 10:02 PM
As I wasn’t there I don’t know how hard he was hit or how much it takes for him to get a bloody nose. If he actually did break my nose, that is different than what happened here. You both are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. As I said, he deserves a beat down. But if he doesn’t have weapon (or doesn’t raise his racquet like he plans to try to hit me with it) I like to think I wouldn’t lay him out. Of course I would love to lay him out. But as adults we have to consider the consequences with rational thought. That is what supposedly puts us at the top of the animal hierarchy. The ability to reason. You can tell the jury it was self-respect that made you break his jaw when you crack him. Because if you hit him full force reacting to his head butt with your adrenalin pumping, you are probably going to hurt him pretty badly. Even if you hit him once, a punch that might just **** off a 35 year old may do serious damage to the geezer. You can say you didn’t hit him that hard but his jaw will be bandaged and in traction for sympathy. He is almost guaranteed to sue you. Do you want to pay many thousands defending yourself (even though I agree he should be laid out)? Just because you are right doesn’t mean the jury will think it was ok to maim a senior citizen who is 35 years older than you or that you will win. The press will crucify you and his attorney will portray you as a troublemaker. You will be questioned about whether you went too far in defending yourself even though you hit him once. Why didn’t you walk away and call the police or do this or that? Do you want to put your fate in a jury of people who could be complete idiots when it is not necessary? I do not.

Juries always want to blame someone. Let me illustrate how even doing the right thing can seriously affect you life. When I lived in Cincinnati, A young punk was stopped for a relatively minor offense and had a few minor warrants. He decided he should run from the police. He eventually ran down a dead end dark alley. Police of course tell him to freeze. He does not and makes a threatening movement and he is shot. He ends up dying. The officer was crucified even though he A. ran from the police b. didn’t listen to instructions multiple times c. made a threatening movement in the dark instead of freezing. He had 3 chances (at least) to stop and do the right thing but didn’t. So because a punk kid wasn’t taught what being responsible means and that your actions have consequences, the cop was crucified, had to leave the force, even though as far as I am concerned, he did nothing wrong. Would you have shot as well? I would have. Make a threatening move AFTER running from the police and bad things can happen. Duh. So the officer is sued and has to spend his life savings and hope for pro bono representation to justify doing his job. And by the way, the city of Cincinnati paid this kid’s family 6 million dollars in a wrongful death lawsuit. This incident changed the whole downtown persona and the consequences of everything for EVERYONE in the city and was felt for years. Think about the message we are sending to deadbeats. What a disgrace.

So as I said, if you want to lay him out that is your choice and I agree you have a legitimate claim to do so. But think carefully about the consequences of your actions. I would rather swallow my pride and use the law to prosecute his actions and have him removed from coaching children than spend a lot of time and money defending myself in court for the next 5 years. You can choose to be a martyr after being convicted even though he deserved it. Tell your wife and kids “he deserved it and I have my self-respect” while your family goes bankrupt defending your actions, however justified or while you sit in jail. I for one don’t have much faith in the legal system bailing me out even though I was justified. Make your own decision about what is best for you and yours. Maybe a generation or two ago you could just crack him and move on with your life. But I don’t think that is the case any more. Roll the dice if you dare. I am only doing that if my life is in real danger. I don’t think that threshold was reached in this case. I would bet the OP would agree that his life was not in mortal danger either.

Good luck

TM

dickbarney
04-30-2009, 03:40 AM
I don't understand not calling the police. You were assaulted. It doesn’t matter if it was on a tennis court or not. It is a crime.

It would improve tennis for every one if such behavior was not tolerated. If such behavior is tolerated soon tennis will look like pro basketball which now looks like football.

_mats_
06-04-2009, 09:09 PM
To all of you that suggested me filing charges, in this case, I should have done this.

I am now prosecuting him to the fullest extent.

Not only he is denying everything, he is also telling everyone that I made everything up, I will file a restraining order tomorrow to protect me and my family.

This person approached me at the courts and insulted me and called me an "MF liar", at that point I removed myself while calling the police, where they recommended me filing the restraining order.

Our tennis league coordinator talked to my witness, who confirmed everything to him.

While filing the restraining order will talk to the judge to see if charges can be made for the actual assault, and maybe a defamation suit is on the way as well.

Amazing the way things have developed, I thought a sane person would just DROP everything and move on after I let him go, but no.

Thanks for the support -

ODYSSEY Mk.4
06-04-2009, 11:20 PM
Glad to hear it, please keep us updated.

subaru3169
06-05-2009, 12:37 AM
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the cap more...
The guys defense, which he has called and told other people, is that he hit you with his cap? What difference does it make? He hit you, he drew blood. Cap or head or fist, what difference does it make?

rjkardo

the difference is that with the cap, the law interprets that as assault with a deadly weapon.. it is an article on the person or in the possession of the person used to strike the victim.. so that yields much more serious reprimands

i can't believe i read this entire thread.. the actual story and the replies really kept me captivated

op, too late to say, but you really should've file suit as soon as it happened.. g'luck with everything and if you do happen to recognize those 4 kids who were there, make sure to get their contact info

gooberwho
06-05-2009, 01:36 AM
good luck, and keep us posted.

royer
06-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Wow! Drama in the extreme. Regardless of this guy's age, he was obviously WAY out of line. I too am sorry to hear that you had to go through such an unpleasant experience.

As far as pressing charges against him, ... well, I can kinda see where you're coming from. Hopefully the incident report will be enough to make Old Man River see the errors of his ways, but I doubt it. At 70 change comes hard if at all. It's a credit to you that you took the high road on more than one occasion during this prolonged incident.

I had a similar thing happen with a guy who was actually a teammate of mine on a 4.0 team a couple of years back.

I'd had a couple of unpleasant experiences before this one when I'd played against him in previous league matches (at that time he was obviously on an opposing team). Long story short, this guy was just a jerk in the extreme. He would always escalate even the slightest on-court conflict. He could never let anything go, and was prone to not only verbal, but physical violence.

When I saw that we were playing on the same league team, I was reluctant about the whole thing, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and let bygones be bygones. "Maybe he's not that bad," I thought. "Perhaps he's just 'misunderstood.'"

Ummmm, no! One evening at practice this dude came unglued about a line-call and walked to our side of the court (we were playing doubs) threatening to kick my ***. He never threw a punch, but I refused to continue playing with him. After verbally bashing me and my partner, he left, and we continued practicing. I let my captain know that I would not continue to play on a team with this guy. While he was never "officially" kicked off the team (much to my chagrin), he became a pariah, and was effectively no longer a part of our team.

This same guy was later banned from league play for one year after an incident during a senior league match. I didn't witness it, but apparently, he took exception to something one of his opponents said to him at the end of a league match (which the jerk and his partner had won handily). A tussle ensued, and the jerk ended up putting his opponent in a head-lock. Despite being encouraged to press assault charges against this guy, the victim did what you did. He filed an incident report with the police and reported the incident to the local league coordinator, which resulted in the one year ban.

Anyway ... you're not alone (unfortunately). There will always be a small minority of loose canons out there.

subaru3169
06-05-2009, 11:41 AM
also.. at least get affidavits from your hitting buddies if they aren't able to testify his pattern of behavior in court

DonnieC
06-05-2009, 05:13 PM
Read through the entire thread. Best of luck moving forward is all aspects. Respect for you initial restraint.

tonyg11
06-06-2009, 10:39 AM
this would have been me in that situation. That old man would be playing wheelchair tennis from that day on.
http://webpages.charter.net/damir/crocop.gif

maverick66
06-06-2009, 11:26 AM
so your a former croatian antiterrorist task force cop? Who also happens to be one of the best heavyweight kickboxer/mma fighters in the world? Its amazing who you meet on these forums.

Steady Eddy
06-06-2009, 11:45 AM
this would have been me in that situation. That old man would be playing wheelchair tennis from that day on.

And you'd be in prison from that day on.

35ft6
06-06-2009, 12:33 PM
http://www.prrag.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/barker.jpg
Just ignore him. Lots of crazy people at public courts. Tennis attracts socially awkward people who never had the confidence to play any other sports.

maverick66
06-06-2009, 01:02 PM
Just ignore him. Lots of crazy people at public courts. Tennis attracts socially awkward people who never had the confidence to play any other sports.

we used to always say only in tennis do you meet these people. Tennis attracts some of the strangest people i have ever met. They dont play team sports because they get made fun of for there weird ways but that doesnt happen in tennis. at least not to there face.

cknobman
06-06-2009, 01:22 PM
And you'd be in prison from that day on.

Not so sure about that. If someone assaults you then I think you are allowed something called "self defense".

cknobman
06-06-2009, 01:23 PM
http://www.prrag.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/barker.jpg
Just ignore him. Lots of crazy people at public courts. Tennis attracts socially awkward people who never had the confidence to play any other sports.

The price is wrong B_tch!

Steady Eddy
06-06-2009, 01:42 PM
this would have been me in that situation. That old man would be playing wheelchair tennis from that day on.

And you'd be in prison from that day on.
Not so sure about that. If someone assaults you then I think you are allowed something called "self defense".
It's something like you're allowed to use the level of force necessary to defend yourself. It's not like you get a freebie to 'go off' on someone to your heart's content. Put an old man in a wheelchair and I'm not sure you'd go to prison for a long time, but I wouldn't take the chance.

stapletonj
06-06-2009, 02:56 PM
Long story short. (well maybe not so short)

I've done about 20,000 misdemeanor cases form my time as appointed counsel in WV and KY (In these states, it was before the public defender systems, and you were assigned cases whether you wanted them or not. Young lawyers got a disproportionate number while the older guys got fewer. The young guys usually didn't mind b/c we were just getting started and needed the work and experience, even though the pay was about 1/5 the goign rate)

First, all the crap about, of, if you hit him back, you'd get sued.
Maybe in SF, I dunno, but there's not a jury in WV OH or KY that would give that guy a nickle. And no lawyer woudl take the case b/c it's a dead loser from the first witness interview on. (lawyers don't like getting hit with Rule 11 sanctions, personally having to pay the other sides attorney fees, it isn't altruism, it's simple economics)

decking a guy who headbutted you? Not a jury in the (At least my) world would convict you and no prosecutor I've ever met woudl even file charges.

and no, a hat is not a deadly weapon, unless it is an Odd Job hat. Most states have a statutory def of deadly weapon that would exclude such a charge.

Kudos for you for not hitting him back, I'm not sure I could've "kept my religion" like that.

It is a simple misdemeanor battery, most likely, he'd be arrested, usually, after the fact warrants (like this now is) are given a chance to turn themselves in and if you (the defendant) have any brains at all you already have bond set up through a bondsman, attorney, friend who owns real estate, etc. when you show up to be arrested and you do so very early on a weekday (not friday) and you have called to make sure the arrignment Judge is in that day and has time to do an arraignment. (ooops, "Judge Smith and all the other Judges are out of town in the annual judicial conference this week and no one else can set your bond until next Monday, sorry").

If he is in fact a 70+ year old and a first time offender,VERY unlikely that he would serve a day. But, if the school finds out and there is ANY conviction, they'd have to get rid of him pronto. IF they know about his violent tendencies (conviction/guilty plea puts it beyond all doubt) and he later assaults a kid (his team or the other) in any sor tof match, practice, or even walking down the hall of the school, THEN the school board is in BIG TROUBLE, maybe even punitives. And rightly so. Once you are on notice that you have an individual with a serious enough problem like this, your first duty is to the children, no matter what his winning record, no matter how sorry he says he is, etc. He's gotta go.

Interesting discussion tho. Lotsa different viewpoints, each with their own pluses and minuses.

Datacipher
06-06-2009, 03:28 PM
so your a former croatian antiterrorist task force cop? Who also happens to be one of the best heavyweight kickboxer/mma fighters in the world? Its amazing who you meet on these forums.

LOL. That's like meeting the best steeplechase rider in the world! Interesting, but hardly earth-shattering nor indicative of much athletic ability in world-class terms!

Ronaldo
06-06-2009, 03:29 PM
Hire this little girl to take care of this old man. She handled my fav MMA middleweight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzHu4JsR-I&feature=related

maverick66
06-06-2009, 04:51 PM
LOL. That's like meeting the best steeplechase rider in the world! Interesting, but hardly earth-shattering nor indicative of much athletic ability in world-class terms!

are you saying crocop isnt a top athlete because i think hes an amazing athlete.

Steady Eddy
06-06-2009, 05:47 PM
Long story short. (well maybe not so short)

I've done about 20,000 misdemeanor cases form my time as appointed counsel in WV and KY (In these states, it was before the public defender systems, and you were assigned cases whether you wanted them or not.
"before the public defender systems"? So do you mean in the early 60's? Or about 45 years ago? And you'd done 20,000 cases? With 250 workdays a year, if you did 8 a day, that would take 10 years. So did you start a law career 55 years ago? Is my math at all right?

Anyway, so you're saying that if he hit the jerk back, no jury is likely to punish him. But what about if he put him in a wheelchair? I'm taking that literally. An old guy might be frail, what if he became a paraplegic as a result of being hit back? Still no risk?

fattsoo
06-06-2009, 09:24 PM
wow, unbelievable

subaru3169
06-06-2009, 10:02 PM
^^^yup.. though, the results are kinda predictable though as it's only a misdemeanor

AprilFool
06-07-2009, 02:46 AM
Are you sure this isn't an April Fools fake out?

Hey, I wasn't there.

Sorry to hear about this. Hope you get it sorted out!

stapletonj
06-07-2009, 03:59 AM
Actually, this is my 31st year of practicing law.
West Viringia and Kentucky did not have full time full staffed
public defenders until the 90s. Some counties in WV still do not have public defenders. Lincoln county got theirs, for example. just a year or two ago. Even then, there were lots of conflict cases to be appointed to. So yeah, there were about a thousand cases a year for a lot of years, some years more, some years less.

Cabell county (where my office is and was then) had over 6000 misdemeanor cases a year ( about 10,000 a year now). Now, that counts multiple charges from the same incident. But I also covered about 5 counties, too.

I've tried up to and including 1st degree ****, aggravated robbery, kidnapping, child molsetation, murder of ploice officer, etc. All as lead counsel or sole counsel.

Actually there was a case in WV, not mine, a few years back where precisely that happened, except the guy fell back, hit his head on a stone and died. Grand Jury didn't even indict him. (although the case was presented to the Grand Jury as a possible direct indictment)

AS far as trying to "call me out" with loaded "questions".
AS the above facts show, there is a reason for the First Rule of Cross Examination: NEVER ASK A QUESTION TO WHICH YOU DO NOT ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER. Sometimes the witness really is telling the truth.

(and yes I can spell, I just can't type a darn.)

35ft6
06-07-2009, 01:41 PM
we used to always say only in tennis do you meet these people. Tennis attracts some of the strangest people i have ever met.True that. Just look at this board. Love TT boards but man we've got some freakin' weird, angry people here. :)

Steady Eddy
06-07-2009, 03:12 PM
AS far as trying to "call me out" with loaded "questions".
AS the above facts show, there is a reason for the First Rule of Cross Examination: NEVER ASK A QUESTION TO WHICH YOU DO NOT ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER. Sometimes the witness really is telling the truth.

That's probably a good rule for cross examination, but you weren't being cross examined. I'm not trying to 'win' something, not calling anyone out, just thinking out loud about some of the facts. For example, I did not know that any part of the U.S. did not have full-time public defenders. Many times I ask people stuff like this and they'll say, "Did I say million, I meant billion.", or vice versa. Sometimes asking for a clarification actually clarifies things, (as long as the queried does not get defensive.) I thought, you miss-spoke or were really old. The result is a combination, public defenders started late in WV and if you've practiced law for over 30 years, you're relatively old for someone who still plays tennis, (not that there's anything wrong with that, but if you were 85+ and still S&Ving, I'd really be impressed).

Our fellow poster who would use this situation to permanently injure the head-butter can interpret this according to his preferences. The fact that you admit that even though a similar incident wasn't prosecuted, but it was considered for prosecution by the grand jury, makes me think that this isn't the kind of behavior I'd chose. But that's just me.

Ronny
06-07-2009, 04:59 PM
^^^ hes a lawyer, just trust him

stapletonj
06-09-2009, 04:18 AM
my bad. bad day. Gotta stop thinking like a lawyer.

BTW - in WV, any individual who believes a case needs to presented to the grand jury can do so whether the prosecutor wants them to or not. Grand Juries are interesting creatures. Although they usually are prosecution lap dogs, they are actually the only real anarchy in government. They are citizens, no government training, no real qualifications or elections, and their word literally is law. If they don't vote to indict somebody, there is no trial. And they don't have to give a good reason, a bad reason ro any reason at all for their decision. About the only damper on their totally unrestrained power is they could be prosecuted if they took a bribe.

I'm in my early 50s, (I skipped a couple years in school) play mostly doubles and run long (for me at least) distance.

BTW - the Huntington WV area was home to Dick Griffith, who it was my pleasure to play with many times. He often played 3.5 tournaments with his grandkids as doubles partners and played competitive tennis into his 90s. He actually started playing I believe in the late 1920s, took about 40 years off and started playing again in the 60s or 70s. He died just a couple of years ago and even at 93 (?) was still coming out to the Courts to watch the tounaments, etc.

His motto - "you gotta live, love, laugh and lob" and he usually added.... "a lot"

His 2nd motto - "lobahi - no lob-a-lo - lobahi"

God Bless you and rest you Dick, we miss you.

10sfreak
06-09-2009, 04:59 PM
True that. Just look at this board. Love TT boards but man we've got some freakin' weird, angry people here. :)
Yo, you talkin' to me?:)

Ronaldo
06-09-2009, 06:57 PM
Yo, you talkin' to me?:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hWJkdUMiMw

subaru3169
06-09-2009, 06:59 PM
wonder if op has any updates so far

Ronaldo
06-09-2009, 07:02 PM
wonder if op has any updates so far

Still trying to get his skirt over the lump on his head.

subaru3169
06-17-2009, 02:47 AM
anything new??

gooberwho
08-14-2009, 11:33 PM
we want updates!

nethawkwenatchee
08-15-2009, 10:52 PM
It sounds to me like you are a very gracefull as well as kind person for taking the high road on this weird incident. Obviously, a 33 year old man has no business beating up an old fart but this would have tested any of our blood-pressures and I can't say with certainty what I would have done at that moment. I'd like to think I could be as patient as you, I'm just not sure. I was a US Marine and I'm a year younger than you. I'm sure you could snap his neck as quickly as any young buck here so it's great that you kept you're cool through the storm. Thanks for sharing this and I hope he has a change of heart as see's that he's got to change before he meets his maker (hopefully not as a result of an outburst)!

gooberwho
08-27-2009, 12:14 AM
any updates?

SChamp
08-29-2009, 01:48 PM
Wow, I guess being originally from Philly we have totally different codes among guys. The guy thought you hit at him in front of his friends. You then went over into his space to explain while he was still fired up. He responded aggressively, but not with a weapon, just a bump that brought a little blood, no broken nose, and he may indeed have meant only to bump you with his cap. You didn't retaliate...even with a firm push away to establish that you will stand up for yourself. Then called the cops later....

I must be from a different time and place, but that breaks about a dozen codes of guys. Sorry sir, you would be the one shunned from any group of guys I have ever known playing hoops, tennis, or dominoes, not him.

Dude, I've got to ask, what was it like having to fight off T-Rex's for food back in the day?

Get a gun pulled on you over a simple disagreement, AND IF you're lucky enough to still be alive after it, you'll realize that your "different time and place" don't exist anymore.

quest01
08-29-2009, 02:24 PM
I can't believe you actually called the cops on him and wrote an incident report about this incident. If you know he didn't like you, you shouldn't have approached him and asked if he was alright. The only lowlife scum is the one who called the cops on a 70 year old. You should have just let it go but now you got involved with the police and all this **** happened.

Bud
09-03-2009, 10:51 PM
I can't believe you actually called the cops on him and wrote an incident report about this incident. If you know he didn't like you, you shouldn't have approached him and asked if he was alright. The only lowlife scum is the one who called the cops on a 70 year old. You should have just let it go but now you got involved with the police and all this **** happened.

Tell the old bugger to keep his hands and his head to himself then. If he's man enough to dish it out, he should be man enough to face the consequences.

OP did the correct thing.

HunterST
09-04-2009, 12:16 PM
Okay, honestly, why are the other people you play with planning on continuing to play with this guy? A geriatric sociopath doesn't sound like an ideal tennis partner!

wyutani
09-04-2009, 12:21 PM
you should never talked to him after u apologize, its ur fault. should learn when to let go.

why would u wanna be friends with a 70 yr old anyway? i prefer girls. young ones.

Shaolin
09-04-2009, 12:29 PM
I can't believe you actually called the cops on him and wrote an incident report about this incident. If you know he didn't like you, you shouldn't have approached him and asked if he was alright. The only lowlife scum is the one who called the cops on a 70 year old. You should have just let it go but now you got involved with the police and all this **** happened.

:roll:

Yeah, because all 70 year olds are saints, right?

http://www.theage.com.au/world/police-arrest-72yearold-serial-killer-rapist-20090501-apju.html

goober
09-04-2009, 12:39 PM
I can't believe you actually called the cops on him and wrote an incident report about this incident. If you know he didn't like you, you shouldn't have approached him and asked if he was alright. The only lowlife scum is the one who called the cops on a 70 year old. You should have just let it go but now you got involved with the police and all this **** happened.

So once you get to a certain age, you should be untouchable?:confused: I have the opposite view. You can get a pass when you are kid, but after you are an adult I don't care if you are 20 or 80, you should know better and deserve to face the consequences of your actions.

Wakenslam
09-04-2009, 01:29 PM
So once you get to a certain age, you should be untouchable?:confused: I have the opposite view. You can get a pass when you are kid, but after you are an adult I don't care if you are 20 or 80, you should know better and deserve to face the consequences of your actions.

I totally agree. A 70 year old should know better, unless he is losing it mentally...

NickC
09-04-2009, 03:32 PM
Props to you for keeping a cool head. I know for damn sure I couldn't. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Bud
09-05-2009, 02:41 AM
you should never talked to him after u apologize, its ur fault. should learn when to let go.

why would u wanna be friends with a 70 yr old anyway? i prefer girls. young ones.

Lotta wisdom here folks :roll:

wyutani
09-05-2009, 03:02 AM
Lotta wisdom here folks :roll:

awesome troll.

ubermeyer
09-05-2009, 03:03 PM
I can't believe you actually called the cops on him and wrote an incident report about this incident. If you know he didn't like you, you shouldn't have approached him and asked if he was alright. The only lowlife scum is the one who called the cops on a 70 year old. You should have just let it go but now you got involved with the police and all this **** happened.

what the heck is wrong with you? he apologized and got headbutted in the face for no reason. he had every right to call the cops and should have pressed charges.

there was an 88 year old pro-**** man who recently walked into the Holocaust museum and opened fire at random, killing a security guard. If there were no guards there, he would likely have killed several adults and children indiscriminately. If nobody called the cops, he wouldn't stop until he killed every last one of them.

conclusion: you're a moron

Bud
09-05-2009, 05:05 PM
awesome troll.

:cry::cry::cry:

Just responding to your ignorant post blaming the victim of a vicious assault.

ubermeyer
09-06-2009, 09:33 PM
why would u wanna be friends with a 70 yr old anyway? i prefer girls. young ones.

...pedophile?

wyutani
09-07-2009, 01:51 AM
:cry::cry::cry:

Just responding to your ignorant post blaming the victim of a vicious assault.

i think ur that 70 old man. must be.

wyutani
09-07-2009, 01:52 AM
...pedophile?

*cricket sound*

some6uy008
09-07-2009, 03:01 AM
*cricket sound*

Probably because your comment does have a creepy ring to it. Think of it as awkward silence

wyutani
09-07-2009, 03:25 AM
Probably because your comment does have a creepy ring to it. Think of it as awkward silence

i dunno whot ur talking about but paedophiles aint a funny topic to me. the guy who mentioned it it clearly insensitive and rude.

lawrence
09-07-2009, 03:32 AM
good thing you didn't smash him, can you imagine if you did and he had a heart attack or something? you'd be in all kinds of ****. lol

Bud
09-07-2009, 03:50 AM
Probably because your comment does have a creepy ring to it. Think of it as awkward silence

Bingo! :oops:

wyutani
09-07-2009, 05:17 AM
yeh whatever.

SuperDuy
09-18-2009, 07:36 PM
any updates?

_mats_
10-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Yes.. without going into details, we went to court, I summoned my witness and won the restraining order petition, I now have a restraining order against him, it is in his public profile now.

It is something I wanted to avoid doing, but after the 2nd incident when he came to me calling me names I had to do it.

Thanks for following it! to me it is a case closed to be left behind and forget about it

Steady Eddy
10-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Yes.. without going into details, we went to court, I summoned my witness and won the restraining order petition, I now have a restraining order against him, it is in his public profile now.

It is something I wanted to avoid doing, but after the 2nd incident when he came to me calling me names I had to do it.

Thanks for following it! to me it is a case closed to be left behind and forget about itWhy? Do you feel sorry for him? I don't.

LuckyR
10-06-2009, 08:00 AM
Yes.. without going into details, we went to court, I summoned my witness and won the restraining order petition, I now have a restraining order against him, it is in his public profile now.

It is something I wanted to avoid doing, but after the 2nd incident when he came to me calling me names I had to do it.

Thanks for following it! to me it is a case closed to be left behind and forget about it


You have PNW under your avatar, what city are we talking about?

_mats_
10-06-2009, 08:30 AM
You have PNW under your avatar, what city are we talking about?

kitsap co.

Slazenger07
10-06-2009, 08:59 AM
Dude i woulda beat the **** outta that mother****er. Good thing for him he didnt headbutt me.

LuckyR
10-06-2009, 11:17 AM
kitsap co.

My condolences for running into such a mentally ill person.

Steady Eddy
10-06-2009, 12:51 PM
My condolences for running into such a mentally ill person.He's mentally ill? Who's made that diagnosis? Or are we to just assume that every person who behaves like a criminal is mentally ill, and 'not responsible' for their own behavior?

JohnnyCracker
10-08-2009, 11:12 PM
No need to hit the old geezer. Just sneak up on him and yell out BOO at the top of your lung. Then, have a few laughs watching him having a stroke. What's he gonna do? Headbutt you again? :)

ceberus
10-08-2009, 11:24 PM
You got burned lol

LuckyR
10-09-2009, 07:17 AM
He's mentally ill? Who's made that diagnosis? Or are we to just assume that every person who behaves like a criminal is mentally ill, and 'not responsible' for their own behavior?

I am going to go out on a limb and diagnose this guy with anti-social personality disorder, as a minimum. Noone can be sure who is reading posts on a Forum, but this guy's behavior did not seem to emanate from this guys routine environment by the OP's description. So where do you think it came from?

As far as "responsibility" for his action, he clearly does not meet the legal definition of that term, so what definition are you using? I think he is responsible for his action as 95% of mentally ill people are.

Steady Eddy
10-09-2009, 05:17 PM
I am going to go out on a limb and diagnose this guy with anti-social personality disorder, as a minimum. Noone can be sure who is reading posts on a Forum, but this guy's behavior did not seem to emanate from this guys routine environment by the OP's description. So where do you think it came from?

As far as "responsibility" for his action, he clearly does not meet the legal definition of that term, so what definition are you using? I think he is responsible for his action as 95% of mentally ill people are.
All that might be true. Then again, he might be a major A-hole.

LuckyR
10-13-2009, 07:27 AM
All that might be true. Then again, he might be a major A-hole.

That is a common mistake. It is totally possible to be mentally (or physically for that matter) handicapped and still an A-hole.

sureshs
10-13-2009, 08:10 AM
That is a common mistake. It is totally possible to be mentally (or physically for that matter) handicapped and still an A-hole.

And then it becomes very difficult for people around them. I go to an older tax accountant whose son also works in the same office. The son was tragically paralyzed from the hip down in an auto accident. When I first went to them, they were sort of sharing the work. I found the son quite rude, as if he was doing me a favor when I was in fact paying. From that time on, I avoid the son and go to the father. I feel guilty and can't tell whether the son is rude because of his handicapped status, or was he always like that.

Nurses and elder-care providers deal with this often. Separating the handicap from the personality becomes tough.

VaBeachTennis
10-21-2009, 05:01 PM
One thing that puzzles me is how were you so close to him that he was able to head butt you? You didn't take a step back after he put his index finger in your chest or were you in his face arguing as well?

VaBeachTennis
10-21-2009, 06:23 PM
This was one funny thread!!!