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HighStrung
04-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Ok, no doubt I'm going to get flamed, but here's the situation...

I captain a 4.0 team. This season a friend of mine is joining the team. He has not played for several years and so he self-rated at 4.0.

Now, 5 years ago he was a strong 4.5. He's not cheating per the self-rating guidelines which he followed carefully, and in reality he is playing no better than a mid-level 4.0 right now.

But between you and me, by the end of the season I expect him to be back in form and blowing away 4.0 competition.

Obviously I don't want him to get disqualified towards the end of the season. So, what's the best plan to avoid this? Without asking him to purposely tank games or matches - there's a limit to how low I'm willing to stoop.

At the beginning of the season, before he gets into shape, should I put him in singles or doubles, and if doubles, better to pair him with a strong partner or a weak partner? And then once he starts getting better, what to do with him then?

Advice is appreciated... lectures on my morals are not... c'mon, you know y'all would do the same if you could!

JavierLW
04-03-2009, 03:26 PM
Ok, no doubt I'm going to get flamed, but here's the situation...

I captain a 4.0 team. This season a friend of mine is joining the team. He has not played for several years and so he self-rated at 4.0.

Now, 5 years ago he was a strong 4.5. He's not cheating per the self-rating guidelines which he followed carefully, and in reality he is playing no better than a mid-level 4.0 right now.

But between you and me, by the end of the season I expect him to be back in form and blowing away 4.0 competition.

Obviously I don't want him to get disqualified towards the end of the season. So, what's the best plan to avoid this? Without asking him to purposely tank games or matches - there's a limit to how low I'm willing to stoop.

At the beginning of the season, before he gets into shape, should I put him in singles or doubles, and if doubles, better to pair him with a strong partner or a weak partner? And then once he starts getting better, what to do with him then?

Advice is appreciated... lectures on my morals are not... c'mon, you know y'all would do the same if you could!

If your morals are really all there, then you just put him where you think he'll do the most good and you can take your chances.

If he hasnt played in awhile, sticking him in any doubles match might be hard for him because people "get back into the groove" or "regain their game" more in singles. In doubles that's too hard because you dont get to hit the ball enough.

"Between you and me" is really between you and the entire civilized world that has the ability to read this post. :-)

If he is the player you describe (4.5 at one time but is just getting back into it) then you have nothing to worry about. If he's not blowing people away at the beginning of the season that will start him out with a lower average and he'll be safer near the end of the season.

If you are wrong and he's a super ringer who would of demolished 4.5 players back in his hey day, then he may get DQ'ed. Very few people (even self rated) actually get DQ'ed so he should feel proud if he accomplishes that.

I had a player last year who hadnt played in 4 years on my 3.5 team and other than losing one 3 set doubles match he didnt lose more then 3 games in any match the entire year. He didnt get DQ'ed and I mostly always played him at #1 Singles or #1 Doubles. (he was our best player and that's where he belonged)

This is a moral answer and if you dont like that, it's just too bad, but you should just put him where he belongs (the best place to give your team the most wins or whatever your goal is) ,and let the chips fall where they may.

Not everyone who someone thinks is a ringer is really one anyway, you wont know until he plays the actual matches.

blakesq
04-03-2009, 03:27 PM
If you are that worried about having him get DQ'd, have him tank matches.

However, only scumbags tank matches and lie when self rate. And people who encourage others to tank matches and lie when self rating, are even worse.


Ok, no doubt I'm going to get flamed, but here's the situation...

I captain a 4.0 team. This season a friend of mine is joining the team. He has not played for several years and so he self-rated at 4.0.

Now, 5 years ago he was a strong 4.5. He's not cheating per the self-rating guidelines which he followed carefully, and in reality he is playing no better than a mid-level 4.0 right now.

But between you and me, by the end of the season I expect him to be back in form and blowing away 4.0 competition.

Obviously I don't want him to get disqualified towards the end of the season. So, what's the best plan to avoid this? Without asking him to purposely tank games or matches - there's a limit to how low I'm willing to stoop.

At the beginning of the season, before he gets into shape, should I put him in singles or doubles, and if doubles, better to pair him with a strong partner or a weak partner? And then once he starts getting better, what to do with him then?

Advice is appreciated... lectures on my morals are not... c'mon, you know y'all would do the same if you could!

HighStrung
04-03-2009, 03:38 PM
If you are that worried about having him get DQ'd, have him tank matches.

However, only scumbags tank matches and lie when self rate. And people who encourage others to tank matches and lie when self rating, are even worse.

Agreed, that's why no tanking, and he did not lie when self rating.

So really this is a question for all the NTRP dynamic rating gurus out there as to what matchups would result in his rating not going up too quickly. Say he plays doubles with a strong parter (say a 4.0A) and they win - would the fact that the partner is strong and so expected to win mean that my friend's rating does not increase as much as it would if he won with a weaker partner?

Patrick_St
04-03-2009, 03:40 PM
If you are that worried about having him get DQ'd, have him tank matches.

However, only scumbags tank matches and lie when self rate. And people who encourage others to tank matches and lie when self rating, are even worse.

A bit contridictory there eh?

HighStrung
04-03-2009, 03:42 PM
If he hasnt played in awhile, sticking him in any doubles match might be hard for him because people "get back into the groove" or "regain their game" more in singles. In doubles that's too hard because you dont get to hit the ball enough.

That's would be my reasoning for putting him in dubs - don't want him to get good too quickly! Plus he is not very confident in his game since he has been out so long, and playing with a partner might steady him a bit in the first few matches versus playing singles. But the guy is definitely a stronger singles player than doubles (great groundstrokes, but no killer instinct at net).

Not everyone who someone thinks is a ringer is really one anyway, you wont know until he plays the actual matches.

True enough

JavierLW
04-03-2009, 03:59 PM
That's would be my reasoning for putting him in dubs - don't want him to get good too quickly! Plus he is not very confident in his game since he has been out so long, and playing with a partner might steady him a bit in the first few matches versus playing singles. But the guy is definitely a stronger singles player than doubles (great groundstrokes, but no killer instinct at net).



True enough

Well tooling around with the lineup to try to reduce someone's odds of getting DQ'ed is not only silly (because the odds of getting DQ'ed are low anyway, you'll never know if he would of gotten DQ'ed the other way), it's also just as bad as dropping games and sets to try to work the system.

If you are doing it to try to "keep him from getting good too quickly", then that's even worse.

Why is he on your team? Does he enjoy playing tennis? Im sure he would prefer to get better quickly.

If you only put him at doubles, he may NEVER reach his full potential. (unless he's such a super ringer that it doesnt matter which is what you need for him to carry a weaker player thru a doubles match)

Making the lineup is sort of like him playing the match. You can consider who you have and put your players where it's appropriate so your team can win matches.

But if you're doing it to just game the system or avoid potential DQ's that's silly. The reason they have DQ's at all is so people who are way above level get punished, so it makes captains not want to get players that are too good.

But like I said, from your description (if that's an honest assessment of where this guy is at), I doubt you have much to worry about. Most 4.0 divisions are full of players that belong in 4.5 anyway. (or they have players that belong in 3.5 depending on from which side you want to look at it)

The worst thing that could happen is for him to play #1 Singles in the first match, play a guy with a 4.0 rating that hardly never loses (so you assume that he likely has a high rating, benchmark doesnt matter, appealed does matter) and kill him 6-0, 6-0 or 6-0, 6-1.

But here's the rub. If he's not really "all that" yet that shouldn't happen, right? (if it does happen then you have yourself a super ringer and the rule is we get to call you a big douchbag then and throw things at you)

You dont get players like that every week (most of the time they are quite average even at #1 Singles) and even going 6-0, 6-1 against any normal player isnt that huge of a deal.

So it doesnt really matter where you put him if he is who you say he is. If he is not then he deserves to get DQ'ed and you're being a tool for trying to work the system to avoid it.

(just being in the next level 5 years ago doesn't automatically make someone a ringer. Finding 4.5 and 5.0 players for your 3.5 SuperTeeeem....so you can go to Nationals this year and get your picture taken is much worse)

HighStrung
04-03-2009, 04:06 PM
Javier, this guy is not going to blow anyone away right now so you're probably right. I'm a decidedly average 4.0 and we played singles last week and he won 7-5 4-6 6-3. So a 'good' 4.0 would beat him right now. But he was pretty much in control of all the points, and the ones I lost were because I was just getting the ball back and he was making errors on shots that he really should have been putting away. So once he gets into his groove I would be toast.

We have a strong team this year and are hoping for a run at districts, so I'm paranoid about DQ. But maybe I'm overestimating the possibility.

HighStrung
04-03-2009, 04:07 PM
Javier, this guy is not going to blow anyone away right now so you're probably right. I'm a decidedly average 4.0 and we played singles last week and he won 7-5 4-6 6-3. So a 'good' 4.0 would beat him right now. But he was pretty much in control of all the points, and the ones I lost were because I was just getting the ball back and he was making errors on shots that he really should have been putting away. So once he gets into his groove I would be toast.

We have a strong team this year and are hoping for a run at districts, so I'm paranoid about DQ. But maybe I'm overestimating the possibility.

I mean the ones he lost

jefferson
04-03-2009, 04:08 PM
Agreed, that's why no tanking, and he did not lie when self rating.

If he is not lying about his rating and he is not intending to tank any matches then I am not sure why you started a thread that has the word sandbag in the title. Or why you are guarding your morals.

First what is best for the league:

I would let him play where he can best help the team win matches and where his ability dictates. Let him play to win regardless of the score. If he gets bumped to 4.5 in the middle of the season then so be it. It is what it is...

Second what is best for YOUR team(What I think you want to hear):

All that said, to answer your question, you could let him play singles and maybe he will get a loss early. Or maybe even two then the possibility of getting bumped or DQed is small. If you put him in the doubles and he dominates and then later dominates the singles also, the possibility of getting bumped or DQed is higher.

HighStrung
04-03-2009, 04:33 PM
If he is not lying about his rating and he is not intending to tank any matches then I am not sure why you started a thread that has the word sandbag in the title. Or why you are guarding your morals.

First what is best for the league:

I would let him play where he can best help the team win matches and where his ability dictates. Let him play to win regardless of the score. If he gets bumped to 4.5 in the middle of the season then so be it. It is what it is...

Second what is best for YOUR team(What I think you want to hear):

All that said, to answer your question, you could let him play singles and maybe he will get a loss early. Or maybe even two then the possibility of getting bumped or DQed is small. If you put him in the doubles and he dominates and then later dominates the singles also, the possibility of getting bumped or DQed is higher.


Because while searching through earlier threads for info, I notice that this board assumes that:

* Anyone who manages to improve during the course of the season is automatically a sandbagger no matter their level at the start

* Anyone who is stronger than average within their level is surely a sandbagger, especially if said sandbagger beat you or one of your teammates :-)

Good advice though from you and Javier. I'm gonna put him in at singles and see where the chips fall.

JavierLW
04-03-2009, 05:30 PM
Because while searching through earlier threads for info, I notice that this board assumes that:

* Anyone who manages to improve during the course of the season is automatically a sandbagger no matter their level at the start

* Anyone who is stronger than average within their level is surely a sandbagger, especially if said sandbagger beat you or one of your teammates :-)

Good advice though from you and Javier. I'm gonna put him in at singles and see where the chips fall.

Cool.

And for the record I do not believe that everyone who seemingly is mentioned as a good player or has some success is a sandbagger.

It's when captains openly and obviously find players that are at the top of the next level or better that there is a problem, or they find ways to tool the system around. (if it's a legitimate player that may just improve during the season there is no reason to tool the system)

The DQ threshold is much higher then the year end bump level so it's already designed to try to prevent a massive amount of players from getting bumped up in the middle of the season because they improve.

That and the way the system works, it's a sort of rolling average so if you get some lower ratings early they still exist in all of the math that happens later.

Realistically you'd have to be more worried about a player getting some strikes early and having the average generate a slew of them right away, but it sounds like that's not very likely with this guy so I wouldnt worry about it.

Nellie
04-03-2009, 07:07 PM
Just know that if your guy is a self-rate, and he wins his first 4-5 matches, he has a good chance of being DQ'ed. Of course, his results and opponents matter. I would think that close matches against weaker opponents (e.g., 3 doubles) would keep his computer rating down. Conversely, losing at singles would keep his rating down too.

JavierLW
04-04-2009, 06:23 AM
Just know that if your guy is a self-rate, and he wins his first 4-5 matches, he has a good chance of being DQ'ed. Of course, his results and opponents matter. I would think that close matches against weaker opponents (e.g., 3 doubles) would keep his computer rating down. Conversely, losing at singles would keep his rating down too.

That's not really true. It would have to be 4 or 5 pretty high rated opponents and particularly the first couple (since that's what starts the averages). In most leagues you wont even find 4 or 5 opponents in a row like that.

Winning in of itself is completely meaningless when it comes to ratings.

I know you tryed to preference that, but you're making it sound like it's easy to get DQ'ed when it's not. (although it is easy if someone is sandbagging low enough but that's a good thing)

Blade0324
04-04-2009, 07:39 AM
Maybe I can offer a bit of into too. I had a guy on my team last year that was a self rate and had not played in years since playing HS tennis and then some lower level college too. He was very rusty as you are describing with your guy but his serve was not and was absolutely huge compared to others we play. You could also tell that the shots were there he would just miss them by a little bit usually so once he got in the grove he was gonna be very dominant. He played all #1 singels and was 7-0 with only 1 three set match. He only dominated one guy, 6-1,6-1 and many others were 2-3, or 2.4. I thought he might get DG'd but he did not. He did get moved up at the year end ratings which is no surprise. What I can tell you about the ratings with USTA is that your guy will start out with a dynamic rating of 4.00. So it is very likely, especially if he plays #1 singles that he will be playing others who's ratings will be about 4.3-4.4 in many cases as they are usually the better players. Here is kind of how the rating system works. A player playing at say 4.40 against one that is 4.00 is expected by the computer to win 6-1,6-1. So any bit better that your guy does than that will improve his rating, even if he loses. I can't tell you how much each match will increase these ratings but if he wins consistantly as long as it's not totally dominant he will most likely not get DQ'd mid season. I'm not an expert but you sound like you are playing by the rules and have good intentions. I wouldn't worry too much.

raiden031
04-04-2009, 07:39 AM
It is wrong to tank matches to manipulate the rating system. I've never been asked to tank matches, but I know people who have and I think it puts players in an awkward situation. I would never tank a match for a captain.

You as a captain should simply put him in a position where he is less likely to get DQ'd (while playing his best), and that would mean playing doubles with a weak partner.

blakesq
04-04-2009, 09:08 AM
You are right Patrick, it did look like i was encourging tanking. My mistake, I should have been more clear, I am against tanking matches and encouraging tanking. What I should have said, is, if the original poster is THAT concerned about a player getting bumped up, then it seems like he is gaming the system, i.e. basically cheating. It appears that the OP knows that the self rating was wrong, and he is trying to take advantage of it. I think that is crappy.

A bit contridictory there eh?

Carlito
04-04-2009, 09:17 AM
Based on personal experience, its hard to get dq'd. We had a lot of 6-0, 6-0 wins and no one got dq'd. Just bumped up at the end of the year. There is no point in tanking unless you are afraid of being bumped up. But you wont get dq'd.

Joeyg
04-04-2009, 09:52 AM
What a complete jerk! I wish I knew who the OP was, so that I could rat this low life out to the USTA. I hope you and your low life buddy get caught and you have to forfeit every match.

If it were in my power, I would ban you for life.

Jim A
04-04-2009, 10:08 AM
I would think if you want him to be safe, have him play #1 singles for his first match or 2 vs C or B players so his dynamic rating starts pretty low and gives him breathing room.

by the time his first 4 are over, there will be nothing to worry about

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 10:58 AM
Maybe I can offer a bit of into too. I had a guy on my team last year that was a self rate and had not played in years since playing HS tennis and then some lower level college too. He was very rusty as you are describing with your guy but his serve was not and was absolutely huge compared to others we play. You could also tell that the shots were there he would just miss them by a little bit usually so once he got in the grove he was gonna be very dominant. He played all #1 singels and was 7-0 with only 1 three set match. He only dominated one guy, 6-1,6-1 and many others were 2-3, or 2.4. I thought he might get DG'd but he did not. He did get moved up at the year end ratings which is no surprise. What I can tell you about the ratings with USTA is that your guy will start out with a dynamic rating of 4.00. So it is very likely, especially if he plays #1 singles that he will be playing others who's ratings will be about 4.3-4.4 in many cases as they are usually the better players. Here is kind of how the rating system works. A player playing at say 4.40 against one that is 4.00 is expected by the computer to win 6-1,6-1. So any bit better that your guy does than that will improve his rating, even if he loses. I can't tell you how much each match will increase these ratings but if he wins consistantly as long as it's not totally dominant he will most likely not get DQ'd mid season. I'm not an expert but you sound like you are playing by the rules and have good intentions. I wouldn't worry too much.

Great input - your situation last year is exactly my situation this year. I fully expect my friend to be moved up at the end of the year and that's ok. It would suck to have him DQ'd mid season and potentially cost us wins but it sounds like that's unlikely.

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 11:00 AM
It is wrong to tank matches to manipulate the rating system. I've never been asked to tank matches, but I know people who have and I think it puts players in an awkward situation. I would never tank a match for a captain.

You as a captain should simply put him in a position where he is less likely to get DQ'd (while playing his best), and that would mean playing doubles with a weak partner.

Agreed, would never tank or ask to tank. Getting contratictory input though on where he would be less likely to get DQ'd while playing his best. Some like you have suggested dubs with a weak partner. Other have suggested #1 singles (under the theory that he will get beat / have close matches for the first few until finding his rythm).

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 11:06 AM
You are right Patrick, it did look like i was encourging tanking. My mistake, I should have been more clear, I am against tanking matches and encouraging tanking. What I should have said, is, if the original poster is THAT concerned about a player getting bumped up, then it seems like he is gaming the system, i.e. basically cheating. It appears that the OP knows that the self rating was wrong, and he is trying to take advantage of it. I think that is crappy.

What a complete jerk! I wish I knew who the OP was, so that I could rat this low life out to the USTA. I hope you and your low life buddy get caught and you have to forfeit every match.

If it were in my power, I would ban you for life.

Calm down, boys.

There is abolutely no cheating going on. My friend was completely honest when completing the self-rating guidelines. And there will be no tanking going on. He is no better than a mid-level 4.0 right now. Nevertheless, by the end of the season he will be playing at 4.5 level.

It not easy for people in that situation (out of tennis for several years) to fit back into league play the first year...

If they play at their current level (in this example 4.0), they get reactions like that from Joeyg (let me guess, your season not going too well so far?)

If they play up to where they think they have potential to be by the end of the season (in this case 4.5), they will either end up getting killed for the majority of the season until getting up to speed, or more likely, will not play at all (4.5 captains want to win too).

goober
04-04-2009, 01:00 PM
You as a captain should simply put him in a position where he is less likely to get DQ'd (while playing his best), and that would mean playing doubles with a weak partner.

I agree that this would be the situation where he would be least likely to win even if he is playing straight up. A legit 4.5 with a 3.5 dubs partner will lose to a strong 4.0 doubles team. The only problem is that you are risking losing a line to protect his rating.

Also just because this guy was a strong 4.5 five years ago doesn't mean he will get back to that level. A lot depends on how old he is right now and how much he is willing to work to get back into shape. There is one guy who I thought was a sandbagger just like the guy in the OP. He played D2 college was playing opens and 5.0s about 7 years ago. He is now early 40s and self rated 4.0. I thought he would be kicking arse by the end of the season. Well at the end of 2 years of USTA play, he is still a 4.0 computer rated, not in great shape and loses to strong 4.0s.

Joeyg
04-04-2009, 02:02 PM
Dear High Strung,

We haven't even started yet. I just despise cheaters. You can call it whatever you want, but you and your kind are scumbags. How do I manage my ringer so he doesn't get bumped up? What a complete load!

As far as I am concerned, you are a cheater and manipulating the system to keep a player from being bumped up to his true level.

I have posted in many threads about crap like this. You are what is wrong with USTA tennis and I hope your guy gets bumped up and you forfeit your matches. And I re-iterate, if I knew who you were, I would rat your plan out to the USTA.

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Dear High Strung,

We haven't even started yet. I just despise cheaters. You can call it whatever you want, but you and your kind are scumbags. How do I manage my ringer so he doesn't get bumped up? What a complete load!

As far as I am concerned, you are a cheater and manipulating the system to keep a player from being bumped up to his true level.

I have posted in many threads about crap like this. You are what is wrong with USTA tennis and I hope your guy gets bumped up and you forfeit your matches. And I re-iterate, if I knew who you were, I would rat your plan out to the USTA.

Dear Joeyg,

Clearly you have not bothered to read my response to your earlier post. If you had, you would understand that there is no cheating going on, just a legitimate concern for not having a player with improvement potential be disqualified while starting the season playing at what is really his current level.

However, it seems that you prefer just spouting vitriol. Fortunately, you seem to be an equal opportunity hater by your own admission, so I won't take it personally.

Joeyg
04-04-2009, 03:11 PM
Oh, I did read all of your posts. However, by either having your player go less than all out or by partnering him with a weaker player or by manipulating scores at some point, you are cheating. Call it what you will to allow you to sleep at night, but after all is said and done, both of you are cheaters.

Your ability to rationalize your actions is quite the joke.If my comments make me a "hater", oh well,I can live with that.

JavierLW
04-04-2009, 03:19 PM
Dear Joeyg,

Clearly you have not bothered to read my response to your earlier post. If you had, you would understand that there is no cheating going on, just a legitimate concern for not having a player with improvement potential be disqualified while starting the season playing at what is really his current level.

However, it seems that you prefer just spouting vitriol. Fortunately, you seem to be an equal opportunity hater by your own admission, so I won't take it personally.

Just ignore him, he probably had too much sugar today or something.

The point is easy.

If it's a legitmate story then just play the guy where needed to win matches, you probably have nothing to worry about.

But if he's much more then that and you have to tool around with matches to keep him from getting DQ'd then he doesnt belong at that level.

Im going to assume that you dont have to do that, but your question is legitimate because a lot of people dont know the rules and they hear about DQ's and dont know if someone will get DQ'ed or not.

It's usually more likely that they'll get bumped up at the end of the year. The league is full of players who rarely ever lose except maybe in the playoffs and only a handful get DQ'ed.

Also keep in mind that you dont necessarily know:

a) Who your player is going to play (you dont get to see the lineup until it's too late).

b) What the actual match result is going to be. Matches take on a life of their own and you cant always predict what will happen.

So again unless you are a complete tool and found someone who's WAY out of range, there is on reason to tool around with the lineup.

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Just ignore him, he probably had too much sugar today or something.

The point is easy.

If it's a legitmate story then just play the guy where needed to win matches, you probably have nothing to worry about.

But if he's much more then that and you have to tool around with matches to keep him from getting DQ'd then he doesnt belong at that level.

Im going to assume that you dont have to do that, but your question is legitimate because a lot of people dont know the rules and they hear about DQ's and dont know if someone will get DQ'ed or not.

It's usually more likely that they'll get bumped up at the end of the year. The league is full of players who rarely ever lose except maybe in the playoffs and only a handful get DQ'ed.

Also keep in mind that you dont necessarily know:

a) Who your player is going to play (you dont get to see the lineup until it's too late).

b) What the actual match result is going to be. Matches take on a life of their own and you cant always predict what will happen.

So again unless you are a complete tool and found someone who's WAY out of range, there is on reason to tool around with the lineup.

Yeah, I think I'm just going to play him at #2 singles:

* Based on the practice match he and I had, he will hold his own but will not do much better than that for at least the first few matches.

* Even if later in the season he gets better and starts beating up on people, it seems from everyone's feedback that by then it would be unlikely for him to be DQ'ed.

* I'm thinking #2 singles rather than #1 because our other singles player is probably stronger *right now*; also, since my friend has been out of competetive tennis for so long, #2 will be less pressure for him.

* I considered dubs, but I think my friend is more of an asset at singles, based on his playing style. But I'm going to ask him, and if he feels more comfortable playing with a partner at least to start with, then I'll put him at dubs.

Thanks all for the good advice

HighStrung
04-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Oh, I did read all of your posts. However, by either having your player go less than all out or by partnering him with a weaker player or by manipulating scores at some point, you are cheating. Call it what you will to allow you to sleep at night, but after all is said and done, both of you are cheaters.

Your ability to rationalize your actions is quite the joke.If my comments make me a "hater", oh well,I can live with that.
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Heh, just noticed your sig... very fitting! To your credit, at least you're not self delusional about your charming disposition.

JavierLW
04-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Yeah, I think I'm just going to play him at #2 singles:

* Based on the practice match he and I had, he will hold his own but will not do much better than that for at least the first few matches.

* Even if later in the season he gets better and starts beating up on people, it seems from everyone's feedback that by then it would be unlikely for him to be DQ'ed.

* I'm thinking #2 singles rather than #1 because our other singles player is probably stronger *right now*; also, since my friend has been out of competetive tennis for so long, #2 will be less pressure for him.

* I considered dubs, but I think my friend is more of an asset at singles, based on his playing style. But I'm going to ask him, and if he feels more comfortable playing with a partner at least to start with, then I'll put him at dubs.

Thanks all for the good advice

I suppose it all depends on who you have on your team and what the scoring system.

Ive been lucky to have a solid position at singles (where 2 or 3 or 4 players would do well in those spots) so in a lot of cases I end up taking the best player and sticking them at doubles because they are the best suited for helping out there.

I always hope to get players who can do well in either since 6 people have to play doubles. (in our league every single match counts toward the standings so most of the time we have to work on being solid on all lines)

raiden031
04-04-2009, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I think I'm just going to play him at #2 singles:

* Based on the practice match he and I had, he will hold his own but will not do much better than that for at least the first few matches.

* Even if later in the season he gets better and starts beating up on people, it seems from everyone's feedback that by then it would be unlikely for him to be DQ'ed.

* I'm thinking #2 singles rather than #1 because our other singles player is probably stronger *right now*; also, since my friend has been out of competetive tennis for so long, #2 will be less pressure for him.

* I considered dubs, but I think my friend is more of an asset at singles, based on his playing style. But I'm going to ask him, and if he feels more comfortable playing with a partner at least to start with, then I'll put him at dubs.

Thanks all for the good advice

If you are really worried about this guy being DQ'd, then playing singles is more risky any time in the season. But if the guy is not dominating right now, chances are he won't be dominating by the end of the season either.

My belief based on the fact that DQs are rare and a statement made in one of USTA's documents (ie. that someone who could be DQ'd due to grievance is someone who is skilled at the top of the next level above their level of play) is that the DQ threshold is probably well into the next level. So someone who is a 4.0 should perform as if they are a solid 4.5 before getting DQ'd from 4.0. USTA knows that people improve throughout the year and so they account for this by having a high threshold.

Carlito
04-04-2009, 05:48 PM
If you are really worried about this guy being DQ'd, then playing singles is more risky any time in the season. But if the guy is not dominating right now, chances are he won't be dominating by the end of the season either.

My belief based on the fact that DQs are rare and a statement made in one of USTA's documents (ie. that someone who could be DQ'd due to grievance is someone who is skilled at the top of the next level above their level of play) is that the DQ threshold is probably well into the next level. So someone who is a 4.0 should perform as if they are a solid 4.5 before getting DQ'd from 4.0. USTA knows that people improve throughout the year and so they account for this by having a high threshold.

They won't DQ your guy. We had a guy never give up more than 2 games in set all year and he didn't get dq'd. I had a streak where I didn't give up a game for 3 straight matches and I didn't dq'd. We just got bumped up.

bruce
04-05-2009, 01:21 AM
From what I've heard through the grapevine, and which other posters indicate, getting DQ'd is pretty rare. However, it's quite possible that your guy will play well enough (and look good enough) to cause an opposing captain to file a grievance. And then it comes down to his DNTRP, and I think a grievance will be upheld at a lower threshold than what's required for an auto-DQ.

JavierLW
04-05-2009, 07:11 AM
From what I've heard through the grapevine, and which other posters indicate, getting DQ'd is pretty rare. However, it's quite possible that your guy will play well enough (and look good enough) to cause an opposing captain to file a grievance. And then it comes down to his DNTRP, and I think a grievance will be upheld at a lower threshold than what's required for an auto-DQ.

That's not true.

"Fair Play" or "Self Rating" grievences are based on player history information, not anything more then that.

They have to prove that he has sufficent history to prove that he's at least on the top of the next level or more, otherwise they dont care.

If anything it's even harder then getting DQ'ed.

Usually if someone fills it out just because someone looks too good, it will pretty much get thrown out. You need facts. (like that they played college tennis or they were nationally ranked, or were #1 in High School in their state, or they were playing 5.0 3 years ago or something like that.)

LuckyR
04-10-2009, 02:21 PM
Highstrung, since you asked... Your problem has two parts: First your player is a known 4.5 (admittedly a few years ago), second it is unknown if he will improve to his former stature and if so, when.

You are to be commended for thinking about this issue ahead of time.

I would play the guy at first singles. As you know this does NOT imply he is the best singles player on the team, it just means they play on the first court. However, many misunderstand that he would be the best player so as not to disappoint them, I would play him there. If he actually in your estimation gets to his 4.5 ability later in the season I would stop playing him. Many players don't play for every single match, so this should not be a big deal. If he doesn't get back to his prior 4.5 skill continue to play him.

JavierLW
04-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Highstrung, since you asked... Your problem has two parts: First your player is a known 4.5 (admittedly a few years ago), second it is unknown if he will improve to his former stature and if so, when.

You are to be commended for thinking about this issue ahead of time.

I would play the guy at first singles. As you know this does NOT imply he is the best singles player on the team, it just means they play on the first court. However, many misunderstand that he would be the best player so as not to disappoint them, I would play him there. If he actually in your estimation gets to his 4.5 ability later in the season I would stop playing him. Many players don't play for every single match, so this should not be a big deal. If he doesn't get back to his prior 4.5 skill continue to play him.

That again is sort of tooling around with the lineups and it begs the question.... What does that player want? Does he actually enjoy playing tennis, or he there for a free shot at a pen??

Just play the guy whenever you think it will help your team win, and dont worry about the stupid DQ process.

If you have to baby some player thru the lineup because you're scared of having him DQ'ed, then you shouldnt of signed him up for your team, that's why we have DQs.....

LuckyR
04-12-2009, 12:49 PM
That again is sort of tooling around with the lineups and it begs the question.... What does that player want? Does he actually enjoy playing tennis, or he there for a free shot at a pen??

Just play the guy whenever you think it will help your team win, and dont worry about the stupid DQ process.

If you have to baby some player thru the lineup because you're scared of having him DQ'ed, then you shouldnt of signed him up for your team, that's why we have DQs.....

I think you misunderstand my point and I apologize for not being clear. I could care less about DQs. My point is that it is unethical to play a 4.5 ability player in a 4.0 league, especially when you have every reason to believe the player is 4.5 (by earning that ranking a few years back).

JavierLW
04-12-2009, 06:22 PM
I think you misunderstand my point and I apologize for not being clear. I could care less about DQs. My point is that it is unethical to play a 4.5 ability player in a 4.0 league, especially when you have every reason to believe the player is 4.5 (by earning that ranking a few years back).

It's a rating, not a ranking.... You dont earn a rating, it's your rating. That's why they let you re-rate after 3 years or whatever it is. (although I wish it was 5 years like it used to be)

Your rating can change if you dont play at all for a significant period of time and whether you choose to believe that or not, and whether it's right or not, that's where the league stands on that.

Ive looked into fair play grievences before, and you almost have to find evidence that someone is 2 levels above before the league even starts to care.

Besides that at almost every level there is a signifcant overlap due to tons of players already playing up or down too far, so just having a 4.5 computer rating doesnt mean that someone wont find a fair match in 4.0.

If you know they were 4.5 5 years ago AND they had an awesome record at it then that's a different story but nobody's said that about this guy.

I dont think it's clear this guy is a "4.5 ability player" given what this guy said about him, so I think you have to cut him a little slack on that.

The conundrum really is that fact that's he was worrying about DQ'ed, when in fact if the guy does get DQ'ed then he REALLY didnt belong at that level in the first place. (it's hard to get DQ'ed when you dont play the next level at the same time, percentage wise it doesnt happen much anyway)

Which is why I will keep recommending he keeps playing the guy and not worry about DQ's. If his story about the guy is true and it's really a real reason for being on his team then he should not have to worry about getting the guy DQ'ed.

10sjunkie
04-13-2009, 12:23 PM
there's a limit to how low I'm willing to stoop.

Sounds to me like you have already stooped!

LuckyR
04-14-2009, 08:59 AM
It's a rating, not a ranking.... You dont earn a rating, it's your rating. That's why they let you re-rate after 3 years or whatever it is. (although I wish it was 5 years like it used to be)

Your rating can change if you dont play at all for a significant period of time and whether you choose to believe that or not, and whether it's right or not, that's where the league stands on that.

Ive looked into fair play grievences before, and you almost have to find evidence that someone is 2 levels above before the league even starts to care.

Besides that at almost every level there is a signifcant overlap due to tons of players already playing up or down too far, so just having a 4.5 computer rating doesnt mean that someone wont find a fair match in 4.0.

If you know they were 4.5 5 years ago AND they had an awesome record at it then that's a different story but nobody's said that about this guy.

I dont think it's clear this guy is a "4.5 ability player" given what this guy said about him, so I think you have to cut him a little slack on that.

The conundrum really is that fact that's he was worrying about DQ'ed, when in fact if the guy does get DQ'ed then he REALLY didnt belong at that level in the first place. (it's hard to get DQ'ed when you dont play the next level at the same time, percentage wise it doesnt happen much anyway)

Which is why I will keep recommending he keeps playing the guy and not worry about DQ's. If his story about the guy is true and it's really a real reason for being on his team then he should not have to worry about getting the guy DQ'ed.


I completely agree with you as to how the system works, DQ-wise, however as I mentioned, I wasn't addressing that issue. Even with a guarantee that the guy wouldn't get DQed, I would not personally play a guy who was (and now, is) a true 4.5 in a 4.0 league.