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Paul Murphy
04-04-2009, 04:41 AM
I'm not sure what's declined the most - Fed's shot-making or his mental state.
On second thoughts I think it's his mental state.
Under any sort of sustained pressure from class opponents he falls apart.
Djokovic this week, Murray last week, Nadal at the Aust Open.
Since when does he throw a racquet?

He may win one more Slam but I'd be prepared to bet against it.
If he runs up against Murray or Nadal in particular in any GS final I'd put his chances of success at about 20 per cent.
Looks like Djokovic (who's hardly been in sparkling form himself) can now be added to the list.
He was a great player and for a set or so he can still produce some marvellous stuff but when the pressure comes on he's folding (the Roddick match aside - although he was a little lucky in that one too).

And one other thing - when a particular shot isn't working for him e.g the forehand down the line, he refuses to put it away and play the percentages.

It smacks of either arrogance i.e "I am Roger Federer and I've always played this way" or lack of judgment under pressure, or both.

Boy does he need a coach!

thejoe
04-04-2009, 04:50 AM
I think it is his mental state, because that has caused his decline in shot-making.

GasquetGOAT
04-04-2009, 05:23 AM
Don't worry, Federer junior will rise and dominate the tennis world once again, 18 years from now.

Lotto
04-04-2009, 05:30 AM
It is saddening really though. If I had the opportunity to talk to Roger right now I would actually get down on both knees and bow BEGGING him to hire a new coach. I actually seriously would. I would be down pleading with him. And he still probably wouldnt fecking listen :(:(

vtmike
04-04-2009, 05:46 AM
Yeah......Fed smashed a racket! Whooopeeeeee.....the guy is human. WE, THE FANS, have made him into a godlike creature...WE and the SPORTING WORLD have elevated his status from ordinary human to incredible God of Tennis.

It is us who are disappointed because WE expect so much more from our idol. WE need to give him a break...(yep he did that with the tennis racket). The pressure that he must be under in terms of media asking him moronic questions, commentators picking up on his EVERY mistake. There is no other tennis player on the tour that has to put up with so much. I FIRMLY AND TRULY believe that. Even when Fed plays these days, I listen to Eurosports, Skysports and other channels all reporting on 'the decline' of Fed....'Will he or won't he'....Arghhhhhhh.

I want to scream. Whatever he did yesterday, it was ONE incident out of a million times he has wowed us with his class, his expertise, his technique. WE, the fans need to put things into perspective. Roger is a great champion. He ALWAYS will be. He is an intelligent man and if he chooses not to seek outside help then there is no way forward for him, but that will be his decision. If he does, then there is hope. But it is his decision. We can hypothesise about what he has done, what he should do, but only Roger can make that choice. I couldn't believe it initially. I thought he was going to storm through the game, like he did with Roddick (in terms of playing great tennis). But once again, he lost his nerve. He choked.

Great first set, confidence flying, second set, very poor. Third set..........................A-P-P-A-L-L-I-N-G. BUT. I remember this time last year, Djokovic at US Open, playing the crowd, clapping and jeering...Commentators writing him off. 'Djokovic is low in confidence, change of racket, he's finished'........Then what happens...slowly....slowly....he gets things together, gets his act sorted, comes back. It's what happens. Right now, I doubt Roger. I hate myself for that. And so I need to work on ME. I want to believe that Roger is going to find a way, but when he loses (even though, let's not forget, he DOES get to the business end of things...), I hate it. Kooyong 2009, won, Doha Semi finals, IW, semi finals, Miami Semifinals. It's NOT a bad record. It is just that we have come to expect so much more........It is great that he is not playing Monte Carlo. I believe Roger is still hungry and motivated to win. He does need to sort out his head though. No doubt. And let us not forget....that potty mouth Roddick and Murray, saying the 'F' word on more than one occasion in this tournament, in full view of children and the like, that isn't sportsmanship.....Does that get picked up on? No! But because it is 'Fed in decline'...everyone is joining the bandwagon. We need to calm it down......

P_Agony
04-04-2009, 05:48 AM
Fed right now is like a bottle filled with holes, and all the water's coming out. For him to stop it, he needs to rethink [arts of his game, and he needs to fix this loss of concentration he sometimes has. A coach might help, but more importantly it's the mental side of the game that's lacking. Federer shots, just like every player, are built of confidence before anything else. If Federer is confident, he's still the best shot-maker in the world, but I think all the losses last year are really starting to affect his confidence now. I want to see the US Open Federer, the one who can, against all odds, play his best tennis when he needs it the most. I don't see that Federer anymore. I knew he was going to lose the AO before the final match has even started. I just didn't see that passion in his eyes like in the USO, when he spanked both Joker and Murray. That's why I think he will never beat Nadal again, not because he doesn't have the game to do it, but rather the confidence.

I really hope he does well on clay, but somehow I think that the holes in the bottle are getting bigger.

P_Agony
04-04-2009, 05:56 AM
Yeah......Fed smashed a racket! Whooopeeeeee.....the guy is human. WE, THE FANS, have made him into a godlike creature...WE and the SPORTING WORLD have elevated his status from ordinary human to incredible God of Tennis.

It is us who are disappointed because WE expect so much more from our idol. WE need to give him a break...(yep he did that with the tennis racket). The pressure that he must be under in terms of media asking him moronic questions, commentators picking up on his EVERY mistake. There is no other tennis player on the tour that has to put up with so much. I FIRMLY AND TRULY believe that. Even when Fed plays these days, I listen to Eurosports, Skysports and other channels all reporting on 'the decline' of Fed....'Will he or won't he'....Arghhhhhhh.

I want to scream. Whatever he did yesterday, it was ONE incident out of a million times he has wowed us with his class, his expertise, his technique. WE, the fans need to put things into perspective. Roger is a great champion. He ALWAYS will be. He is an intelligent man and if he chooses not to seek outside help then there is no way forward for him, but that will be his decision. If he does, then there is hope. But it is his decision. We can hypothesise about what he has done, what he should do, but only Roger can make that choice. I couldn't believe it initially. I thought he was going to storm through the game, like he did with Roddick (in terms of playing great tennis). But once again, he lost his nerve. He choked.

Great first set, confidence flying, second set, very poor. Third set..........................A-P-P-A-L-L-I-N-G. BUT. I remember this time last year, Djokovic at US Open, playing the crowd, clapping and jeering...Commentators writing him off. 'Djokovic is low in confidence, change of racket, he's finished'........Then what happens...slowly....slowly....he gets things together, gets his act sorted, comes back. It's what happens. Right now, I doubt Roger. I hate myself for that. And so I need to work on ME. I want to believe that Roger is going to find a way, but when he loses (even though, let's not forget, he DOES get to the business end of things...), I hate it. Kooyong 2009, won, Doha Semi finals, IW, semi finals, Miami Semifinals. It's NOT a bad record. It is just that we have come to expect so much more........It is great that he is not playing Monte Carlo. I believe Roger is still hungry and motivated to win. He does need to sort out his head though. No doubt. And let us not forget....that potty mouth Roddick and Murray, saying the 'F' word on more than one occasion in this tournament, in full view of children and the like, that isn't sportsmanship.....Does that get picked up on? No! But because it is 'Fed in decline'...everyone is joining the bandwagon. We need to calm it down......

Excellent post. Reminds me why I'm a Federer fan and will always be that, no matter how much he losses or plays badly. Federer has provided his fans with the most beautiful tennis in the world for more than 5 years. However, I do think he needs to repair stuff in his game. Not for us, his fans, but for himself. I want him to do well for him, I want him to break the record, I think he's earned that. I still believe in Roger Federer, I just hope Federer believes in himself too.

vtmike
04-04-2009, 06:20 AM
Roger's problem (and it is a BIG one)...is his NOT hiring someone else in his team to SHARE his problems/his concerns. And I am not talking about Mirka. Great that they are together. BUT he needs to have a fresh person on the team, someone INDEPENDENT from her, someone who can CRITICISE his play and not praise his past talents all of the time. I really think that he is in MAJOR DENIAL. Unless he gets past that, we are all in for tough times supporting Fed. Only he can sort this out. He has the answers but he just seems to be ignoring them. If this isn't a HUGE WAKE UP call for him, then I fear as he goes into more tournos, his confidence will be at an all time low...I mean how many more losses is he going to endure before he finally turns his back on all of this?

P_Agony
04-04-2009, 06:56 AM
Roger's problem (and it is a BIG one)...is his NOT hiring someone else in his team to SHARE his problems/his concerns. And I am not talking about Mirka. Great that they are together. BUT he needs to have a fresh person on the team, someone INDEPENDENT from her, someone who can CRITICISE his play and not praise his past talents all of the time. I really think that he is in MAJOR DENIAL. Unless he gets past that, we are all in for tough times supporting Fed. Only he can sort this out. He has the answers but he just seems to be ignoring them. If this isn't a HUGE WAKE UP call for him, then I fear as he goes into more tournos, his confidence will be at an all time low...I mean how many more losses is he going to endure before he finally turns his back on all of this?

I fully agree. Federer is in major denial. His talent is still the biggest in the game, but it's not enough anymore. I also think he should demnad himself more in earlier rounds, and do what Nadal does - try to break every time, fight for every point, show some spirit. Federer may have won previous rounds, but his play was less than spectaciular. He needs to find the passion again, and fix his confidence problem. Everything else will follow.

hoodjem
04-04-2009, 07:00 AM
Yeah......Fed smashed a racket! Whooopeeeeee.....the guy is human. WE, THE FANS, have made him into a godlike creature...WE and the SPORTING WORLD have elevated his status from ordinary human to incredible God of Tennis.

It is us who are disappointed because WE expect so much more from our idol. WE need to give him a break...(yep he did that with the tennis racket). The pressure that he must be under in terms of media asking him moronic questions, commentators picking up on his EVERY mistake. There is no other tennis player on the tour that has to put up with so much. I FIRMLY AND TRULY believe that. Even when Fed plays these days, I listen to Eurosports, Skysports and other channels all reporting on 'the decline' of Fed....'Will he or won't he'....Arghhhhhhh.

I want to scream. Whatever he did yesterday, it was ONE incident out of a million times he has wowed us with his class, his expertise, his technique. WE, the fans need to put things into perspective. Roger is a great champion. He ALWAYS will be. He is an intelligent man and if he chooses not to seek outside help then there is no way forward for him, but that will be his decision. If he does, then there is hope. But it is his decision. We can hypothesise about what he has done, what he should do, but only Roger can make that choice. I couldn't believe it initially. I thought he was going to storm through the game, like he did with Roddick (in terms of playing great tennis). But once again, he lost his nerve. He choked.

GEEZ. First it was Mirka, then it mono, now it's our fault.

It's never Fed's fault.

vtmike
04-04-2009, 07:05 AM
GEEZ. First it was Mirka, then it mono, now it's our fault.

It's never Fed's doing--he's always perfect

If that's what you got out of reading that post :shock: then you have zero comprehension skills!
If you just want to create a hostile environment by making people angry then you are a troll, which is really sad...

So which one is it?

oneguy21
04-04-2009, 07:34 AM
Man, I wish Federer can get his game together. I'm not going to lie. Right now, his game is going south (relative to his usual self). Maybe it's all mental like y'all are saying, but his shot making abilities aren't too great right now. He's making so many more unforced errors off the forehand, and his backhand has gotten weaker, imo. I just get this feeling that with the birth of his new child, it's going to be extremely difficult for him to get his top notch game back. I think Federer can forget getting the #1 ranking back. With his skipping of MC and probably other Master Series events in the summer, it's very likely that either Djokovic or Murray can take over him.

For all of you who have watched Federer for a long time, did he play like this before his peak years? If so, that means he's over the hump, and his game can only go south. I think a hiring a of coach can only help him. The question is who? Who can coach Federer?

hoodjem
04-04-2009, 07:59 AM
If that's what you got out of reading that post then you have zero comprehension skills!

I have plenty of comprehension skills; I'm just trying to make a point, and ignore the drivel. The original author should have deleted the first three paragraphs. They were just full of lame excuses: "we" "we" "we" "us" "us" "the pressure."

The fourth paragraph actually commenced fairly thoughfully, with a nice dose of reality. Fed is a human being.

But then the author slips into some misguided navel-gazing, self-analysis bullsh*t: "Right now, I doubt Roger. I hate myself for that. And so I need to work on ME."

Maybe you have made him into a god--I haven't. One problem is that maybe he has started to pay attention to the idolizing fans--all this talk about "my talent."





Your avatar is very revealing.

TennezSport
04-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Fed is going through the same hurtle that a number of other great players have gone through; mental burnout. It's very difficult to maintain that great level of play for so many years and no one has ever done it as long as Fed. However, no one can keep that up forever. Fed is thinking about it too much and pressing. It happened to Agassi when he was 28 and he dropped below 100 in the rankings. He went back to square one and won most of his majors from there.

Fed is not playing freely anymore or enjoying the game as much. Pushing for that 14th, 15th etc. is taking it's toll on him. He needs to go back to what he did to get to the number 1 position, relax and work hard, then his game will flow; clear his mind and have fun again. He may need an outside source in a coach to show him that or maybe get away from the game for a bit. Maybe having his kid will do that for him.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

hoodjem
04-04-2009, 08:17 AM
I agree with you. Mental burnout.

But I fear that, instead of doing the hard thing (go back to square one, work hard), he will take the easy way out. That is, he will soon announce that he will take time off--like Borg or Mac or Agassi did before.

It seem like that when players take some time off, then a few months turns into six months, then a year. And they never really come back, for example Mac after 1986.

Puma
04-04-2009, 08:29 AM
I agree with you. Mental burnout.

But I fear that, instead of doing the hard thing (go back to square one, work hard), he will take the easy way out. That is, he will soon announce that he will take time off--like Borg or Mac or Agassi did before.

It seem like that when players take some time off, then a few months turns into six months, then a year. And they never really come back, pace Mac after 1986.


Unfortunetly, you are probably right. I agree with most all of what has been said here: Burnout, needing a coach, talent not itself enough etc etc. His reluctance to hire a coach makes me think that he will fade away over time. I really hate to see this. His game is really nice to see. If you think about what Agassi did, it is quite amazing honestly. I mean, how many guys with that kind of money would actually re-dedicate themselves to the hard yards to get back on top? I don't see Fed doing this at all. I would bet he aint workin hard enough right now!

But, the reason I commented here is that he is at another cross roads aside from tennis. Mirka and that baby. All that is nice, but for Fed that has to be a huge adjustment to make. Just think, all his life, tennis is or has been #1. Now, that kid is going to be #1, at least in Mirkas eyes.

I see this kid thing being the last straw. I hate to spew gloom and doom, but I think Fed is done. Yeah, he is still great. Yeah he can still be every player on the planet day in day out cept for about 4 or 5 guys. But, in his mind, it is all about those 4 or 5 guys really. So, Fed is done.

Puma
04-04-2009, 08:38 AM
One more thing. I played a lot of competitive golf. Feds tantrum on the court the other day reminded me of many young guys blowing up during a golf round. But, that blow up comes after a difficult year last year, a tuff loss at AO, a loss last week, and his game leaving whilst he is playing Joker. I honestly believe that Fed thinks he owns the likes of Roddick, Monfil, Joker and most all other contenders except for Nadal and Murray.

I really think Fed has got some problems off the court that is really dragging him down. Not even mentioning the fact that the field is getting better. I really believe the baby thing was a huge huge out of left field sucker punch for Fed.

That tantrum on court, he has lost before, but I have never seen his game go to hell like that before. Fed player really terrible after that.

So, I say, life is catching up with him. It isn't fun anymore. Commitments on court and off and now with his personal life. It aint fun anymore....

TennezSport
04-04-2009, 08:52 AM
I agree with you. Mental burnout.
But I fear that, instead of doing the hard thing (go back to square one, work hard), he will take the easy way out. That is, he will soon announce that he will take time off--like Borg or Mac or Agassi did before. It seem like that when players take some time off, then a few months turns into six months, then a year. And they never really come back, for example Mac after 1986.

I agree with you and it's all up to Fed to walk into the light or join the dark side.

If you think about what Agassi did, it is quite amazing honestly. I mean, how many guys with that kind of money would actually re-dedicate themselves to the hard yards to get back on top? I don't see Fed doing this at all. I would bet he aint workin hard enough right now!

The one thing that Fed still has is his desire to make history. If he can get a clear head and see the grail again, he may make it like Agassi did. It's all in his court now.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

lordmanji
04-04-2009, 09:27 AM
i think fed will win at least a few more slams if only for the reason that someone else will eliminate nadal before the final. nadal's been beaten plenty of times by lesser players like blake, youzhny, ferrer, nalbandian etc players who have a strong backhand and can hit through his forehand. federer will win more slams.

that said, federer's game has declined imo. his forehand starting from 07 at indian wells became erratic. he had spots where he hit it well like at the us open and the masters cup but stretch him out wide and he will shank it. it has only declined further now that even on his favorite shot of running around it, and mid court, he cannot hit it consistently.

the loss to nadal was a huge mental blow. he can now see the sunset whereas before he had at least 2 of four surfaces. now its just the us open in his back pocket but even that nadal will surely soon challenge. this mental devastation has now carried over to his other opponents like yesterday with djokovic. it seems mental in that fed is linking pressure situations with nadal and so becomes tight much like he does with nadal.

it gets even worse as now he even looks like he's losing faith in his backhand and resorted to serve and volley yesterday, a style he hasnt played since he was able to beat opponents off the ground. it shows he has lost complete faith in it.

for fed to get back, he needs a sports psychologist, a new coach that will inject in him fresh advice, perspective and motivation much like roddick had done. maybe tony roche was better for fed's game than we realize. fed's talent took him to a few slams, roche maintained it. since their parting, fed's game has become erratic, his ground game inconsistent more and more. i think a coach who was top 30 would be best though not necessarily a HOFer. someone who can travel with fed and stay with him. it's truly a shame darren cahill didn't agree to be his coach.

honestly for me without fed it is not very interesting watching tennis. fed gave me something to aspire to and brought a depth and complexity to the game id never seen. he made it art and he made it beautiful. i hope he comes back soon.

stormholloway
04-04-2009, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure what's declined the most - Fed's shot-making or his mental state.

Use your head please.

migjam
04-04-2009, 11:02 AM
I can't tell you how much this reminds me of when Sampras started making a decline.

All-rounder
04-04-2009, 11:03 AM
I can't tell you how much this reminds me of when Sampras started making a decline.
By that time he had pass the Grand slam record

Objective Danny
04-04-2009, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure what's declined the most - Fed's shot-making or his mental state.
On second thoughts I think it's his mental state.
Under any sort of sustained pressure from class opponents he falls apart.
Djokovic this week, Murray last week, Nadal at the Aust Open.
Since when does he throw a racquet?

He may win one more Slam but I'd be prepared to bet against it.
If he runs up against Murray or Nadal in particular in any GS final I'd put his chances of success at about 20 per cent.
Looks like Djokovic (who's hardly been in sparkling form himself) can now be added to the list.
He was a great player and for a set or so he can still produce some marvellous stuff but when the pressure comes on he's folding (the Roddick match aside - although he was a little lucky in that one too).

And one other thing - when a particular shot isn't working for him e.g the forehand down the line, he refuses to put it away and play the percentages.

It smacks of either arrogance i.e "I am Roger Federer and I've always played this way" or lack of judgment under pressure, or both.

Boy does he need a coach!

You can stick a fork in The Great Roger Federer. He is DONE!!!

tenis
04-04-2009, 11:30 AM
I can't tell you how much this reminds me of when Sampras started making a decline.

Yep. I'll tell you, I have the same feeling!

euroroberto
04-04-2009, 11:37 AM
hopefully the recent poor results (by his standards, good results for most pros) will lower the public's expectations of him, which will decrease the pressure on him and he can get to the top again? i'm not too confident though, rafa, murray and djokovic are good it's gonna be hard for him to break the record

Lsmkenpo
04-04-2009, 11:43 AM
I agree it is mental, we as fans only see what happens on the court and assume that is the only problems that could be contributing to a lapse mentally on the court, but there could be problems in his personal life effecting his play also, I know
my play drops when I have some problems off the court.

All-rounder
04-04-2009, 11:44 AM
hopefully the recent poor results (by his standards, good results for most pros) will lower the public's expectations of him, which will decrease the pressure on him and he can get to the top again? i'm not too confident though, rafa, murray and djokovic are good it's gonna be hard for him to break the record
pressure is always on for Federer I could agree with you at probably master series events but at Grand slams he's expected to win no matter what the situation is. Some people even expect him to win french open

Puma
04-04-2009, 11:51 AM
I just watched the clip of his post match interview. I've seen this kinda think before. You cannot talk to a guy when they are like that. No reasoning whatsoever. I have no idea how long that will last but if Fed doesn't get a new positive perspective he is in for a long season for sure.

If he plays well on clay he will face Nadal. No surprises there.

Fed is smack dab in the middle of what makes sport such a humbling adventure. Just when you think you've got it all figured out here comes that sucker punch.

I hope Fed makes a good effort, cuz thats what it is going to take to make this interesting. If not, its gonna be hard to watch.....

OrangePower
04-04-2009, 11:59 AM
Fed's decline is both physical and mental:

In terms of pure physical ability and skill, he is just not as good as he was in his peak, and never will be again. That's just a natural part of getting older and more worn. His reflexes are not quite as sharp, his footwork is not quite as good, and his physical intensity can't be sustained at the highest level over the course of a match.

This is not a knock on Fed - everyone goes through physical decline as they get past the pysical peak (which is probably 23 - 25 for mens tennis).

Having said that, even now he still has physical skills that compare favorably with most if not all of the players on tour. So I think he could still win slams with his current ability, even though it's less than it once was.

The mental decline is IMO what is costing him the most. He has been unable to adjust mentally to his declining physical ability.

* He needs to be more flexible in his gameplan (both before and during matches), and play in a way that reflects his current skills, and takes more advantage of his opponents' relative weaknesses. It looks like he is still trying to impose the 'Fed game' on everyone, but it's just not there anymore. So he needs to get smarter about how he plays.

* He needs to mentally accept that he is no longer going to overwhelm everyone, and control the frustration that he must surely feel because of that.

* He needs to realize that opportunities to win big titles are going to become more and more precious, and must each be exploited as much as possible.

Of couse most of this is obvious and must also be obvious to Fed. But he seems paralyzed and unable to do anything about it. He really needs a coach.

Lsmkenpo
04-04-2009, 11:59 AM
I think the rest of the season is going to be even tougher for him, with his baby coming this summer, not sure if his mental focus will improve at all this season, his life off the court is going to change big time.

snoopy
04-04-2009, 12:22 PM
You could almost see this coming.

Fed was notoriously emotional as a junior. He learned toto control his emotions just enough to allow his talent to shine through. He not only started winning but dominating the sport. But just bc he we didn't see him emotionally break down while he was dominant, it doesn't mean that he totally gained control over his darkside. Winning so much may have prevented him from coming to full terms with his emotional makeup. Now his negative emotions are starting to rear their head as he has to deal with adversity again.

Add to this the competition getting better and Fed getting older. Unlike Agassi who had a game that could still work well as his physical abilities declined, Federrer's unique style of play doesn't fair as well. Agassi: large headed, heavy racquet, baseline game, with traditional double bend technique, and 2 hbh. Federrer: uses a small headed relatively light frame that requires a lot of racquet head speed, one handed backhand, unorthodox straight arm swing. Fed's style requires a lot of precision and timing. He's going to have a very difficult time adjusting as he loses a step, especially with the competition now being the best it's been over the last 10 years.

I am not a Fed hater but if you combine Fed not fulling coming to terms with his negative emotions with the fact that his game doesn't transition well as he ages, I think Fed's chance of breaking Pete's record is in serious trouble.

Lsmkenpo
04-04-2009, 12:31 PM
I don't believe that a players skills decline at his age, physically he should be at his peak, just as athletes in every other sport peak at around 27 YO, the difference I see is mental, when you are 21-24 YO your entire life focus can remain on your sport and training, as you mature your focus
drifts a little more towards your life off the court, relationships, kids, and the additional responsibilities of starting to live a real life, not just tennis 24-7 without any outside distractions. I think focus starts to suffer, and it shows in training and play on the court mentally.

euroroberto
04-04-2009, 01:02 PM
It's strange that when he was dominating I always supported his opponent as an underdog, but now he's not doing so good I'm turning into a bit of a Fed fan and I hope he regains form one day because it'll be good for tennis

helloworld
04-04-2009, 01:15 PM
Forget about slams. Right now he's not winning ANY tournament at all!!

stician
04-04-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure what's declined the most - Fed's shot-making or his mental state.
On second thoughts I think it's his mental state.
Under any sort of sustained pressure from class opponents he falls apart.
Djokovic this week, Murray last week, Nadal at the Aust Open.
Since when does he throw a racquet?

He may win one more Slam but I'd be prepared to bet against it.
If he runs up against Murray or Nadal in particular in any GS final I'd put his chances of success at about 20 per cent.
Looks like Djokovic (who's hardly been in sparkling form himself) can now be added to the list.
He was a great player and for a set or so he can still produce some marvellous stuff but when the pressure comes on he's folding (the Roddick match aside - although he was a little lucky in that one too).

And one other thing - when a particular shot isn't working for him e.g the forehand down the line, he refuses to put it away and play the percentages.

It smacks of either arrogance i.e "I am Roger Federer and I've always played this way" or lack of judgment under pressure, or both.

Boy does he need a coach!

it happens in sports all the time, once one reaches a certain age things just go awry. it was difficult to watch Federer play and his post match interview was even more difficult to watch. he needs to regroup and find love for the game even when he's losing. right now he is the most miserable multi grandslam winner I've ever seen in recent history.

maximo
04-04-2009, 02:07 PM
it happens in sports all the time, once one reaches a certain age things just go awry. it was difficult to watch Federer play and his post match interview was even more difficult to watch. he needs to regroup and find love for the game even when he's losing. right now he is the most miserable multi grandslam winner I've ever seen in recent history.

This is a bit off topic. In your sig it says you use both the GR 2's and the CB's 1.3. My question is, which shoe do you prefer and why?

muzza123
04-04-2009, 02:10 PM
Forget about slams. Right now he's not winning ANY tournament at all!!

You cannot forget about slams when the guy has made the last 4 Major finals. Until he consistently fails to reach finals, there is absolutely no reason to dismiss Fed in Majors.

As for best of 3 tournaments, well that's a different matter altogether...

rubberduckies
04-04-2009, 02:46 PM
The field has become stronger, and, unlike 04-06, the players with the talent to beat Roger are not afraid of beating him anymore.

He is only losing the the cream of the crop this year.
He has lost to Nadal, Murray, Djokovic.

GameSampras
04-04-2009, 03:01 PM
I can't tell you how much this reminds me of when Sampras started making a decline.

First off, there was no talk about Pete declining at 27 years in 1998. He had a more off year than others years in 98 but the "decline" part was virtually non existent at the time. And by 1999 he was injured but was still the best in the world. Even Agassi commented he doesnt feel he is number 1 at the time because he coulkdnt beat Pete.

I think this "Fed decline" crap is just Federer fans trying to find some sort of crux or excuse to place the blame on. Yet rarely do they give mention that Fed just has a tougher group of boys around on top to deal with than he did. Fed was so dominant because there wasnt the talent on top that we see today with the likes of Murray, Djoker, and Nadal. Fed could very well have lost to these guys 04-07. Which he did actually. His only losses in 06 were to Murray and Nadal.


Of course they have to blame it on a "decline". God forbid the glaring truth that Fed dominated in era with not many greats or greats who were passed their best days or yet to reach them would be too much for them to handle.

There is no doubt in my mind, he wouldnt been nearly as dominant had Nadal primed, and Murray and Djoker came along during the same time Roger did. They would all take tourneys away from roger. They are just a more talented group of guys and with more of the complete package than others Fed had to deal with like Hewitt, Roddick, Davydenko etc. And the biggest thing is, they dont fear Roger. They know they can beat him. The others didnt.

TheTruth
04-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Fed is going through the same hurtle that a number of other great players have gone through; mental burnout. It's very difficult to maintain that great level of play for so many years and no one has ever done it as long as Fed. However, no one can keep that up forever. Fed is thinking about it too much and pressing. It happened to Agassi when he was 28 and he dropped below 100 in the rankings. He went back to square one and won most of his majors from there.

Fed is not playing freely anymore or enjoying the game as much. Pushing for that 14th, 15th etc. is taking it's toll on him. He needs to go back to what he did to get to the number 1 position, relax and work hard, then his game will flow; clear his mind and have fun again. He may need an outside source in a coach to show him that or maybe get away from the game for a bit. Maybe having his kid will do that for him.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

Great post.

AprilFool
04-04-2009, 03:55 PM
It's possible that he can no longer win Master Series events that involve the top 3. He does not seem to have this problem in the Slams, excluding finals involving Nadal. There is less room for error in a best of three match.
He was in god mode during the first set against Djoker and then it all fell apart. From there on in he sometimes played worse than an amateur. It could be his back. I doubt it's age.
The pressure on him must be unbearable.

TheTruth
04-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Fed's decline is both physical and mental:

In terms of pure physical ability and skill, he is just not as good as he was in his peak, and never will be again. That's just a natural part of getting older and more worn. His reflexes are not quite as sharp, his footwork is not quite as good, and his physical intensity can't be sustained at the highest level over the course of a match.

This is not a knock on Fed - everyone goes through physical decline as they get past the pysical peak (which is probably 23 - 25 for mens tennis).

Having said that, even now he still has physical skills that compare favorably with most if not all of the players on tour. So I think he could still win slams with his current ability, even though it's less than it once was.

The mental decline is IMO what is costing him the most. He has been unable to adjust mentally to his declining physical ability.

* He needs to be more flexible in his gameplan (both before and during matches), and play in a way that reflects his current skills, and takes more advantage of his opponents' relative weaknesses. It looks like he is still trying to impose the 'Fed game' on everyone, but it's just not there anymore. So he needs to get smarter about how he plays.

* He needs to mentally accept that he is no longer going to overwhelm everyone, and control the frustration that he must surely feel because of that.

* He needs to realize that opportunities to win big titles are going to become more and more precious, and must each be exploited as much as possible.

Of couse most of this is obvious and must also be obvious to Fed. But he seems paralyzed and unable to do anything about it. He really needs a coach.

This is a good post. Sampras and other greats have said the same thing. At some point you hit a wall and have to revamp, no matter how "good" you are. The game changes. Life changes, and you have to be willing to adjust. Adjust or fail. This will be the true test of Federer's mental state.

verbatim100
04-04-2009, 05:07 PM
First off, there was no talk about Pete declining at 27 years in 1998. He had a more off year than others years in 98 but the "decline" part was virtually non existent at the time. And by 1999 he was injured but was still the best in the world. Even Agassi commented he doesnt feel he is number 1 at the time because he coulkdnt beat Pete.

I think this "Fed decline" crap is just Federer fans trying to find some sort of crux or excuse to place the blame on. Yet rarely do they give mention that Fed just has a tougher group of boys around on top to deal with than he did. Fed was so dominant because there wasnt the talent on top that we see today with the likes of Murray, Djoker, and Nadal. Fed could very well have lost to these guys 04-07. Which he did actually. His only losses in 06 were to Murray and Nadal.


Of course they have to blame it on a "decline". God forbid the glaring truth that Fed dominated in era with not many greats or greats who were passed their best days or yet to reach them would be too much for them to handle.

There is no doubt in my mind, he wouldnt been nearly as dominant had Nadal primed, and Murray and Djoker came along during the same time Roger did. They would all take tourneys away from roger. They are just a more talented group of guys and with more of the complete package than others Fed had to deal with like Hewitt, Roddick, Davydenko etc. And the biggest thing is, they dont fear Roger. They know they can beat him. The others didnt.

I agree. Fed's total dominance was illusionary. He simply did not have to face a group of talented, mentally strong, complete players in major tournaments.

I think Fed knows it's now irrelevant if he has a coach. He must know that his touch play style will not be able to beat the likes of Nadal, Djoko & Murry.

I think he is done.

Nadal_Freak
04-04-2009, 05:09 PM
I still think it's age. Even though Fed's not really old, it's not as good as being 22-26. He is not explosive and youthful with his movement and never developed a strong upper body to handle the body blows of Nadal and other players trying to get the ball high up on him. Strange that now he is missing shots at regular height as well. It all started with Nadal and expanded from there.

AprilFool
04-04-2009, 05:36 PM
I agree. Fed's total dominance was illusionary. He simply did not have to face a group of talented, mentally strong, complete players in major tournaments.

I think Fed knows it's now irrelevant if he has a coach. He must know that his touch play style will not be able to beat the likes of Nadal, Djoko & Murry.

I think he is done.

I guess Nadal is done and can no longer beat Del Potro, too.
This tired old mantra was repeated after he won the US Open as well.

Want to bet he makes it to the final of the next Grand Slam he plays?

Lsmkenpo
04-04-2009, 05:50 PM
He must know that his touch play style will not be able to beat the likes of Nadal, Djoko & Murry.

I think he is done.

Touch play style -LMAO , Nadal, Djoko & Murry all hit the ball much harder than Fed, huh? Have you ever seen him hit live or do you just watch on TV?

Lsmkenpo
04-04-2009, 05:55 PM
Funny, wonder why the majority of the negative BS is largely from fanboys of Sampras, Nadal and Djokovic? Weak

emerckx53
04-04-2009, 06:37 PM
You can stick a fork in The Great Roger Federer. He is DONE!!!

Anybody who uses George W. Bush as their avatar and uses a quote from the worst spoken president of our generation is in no position to comment on whether or not Fed is done. One thing we know for sure is that Bush is done and it couldn't have come sooner, and I am a Republican..

Mj

emerckx53
04-04-2009, 06:39 PM
This is a good post. Sampras and other greats have said the same thing. At some point you hit a wall and have to revamp, no matter how "good" you are. The game changes. Life changes, and you have to be willing to adjust. Adjust or fail. This will be the true test of Federer's mental state.

And this is an even better post....:)

emerckx53
04-04-2009, 06:42 PM
Touch play style -LMAO , Nadal, Djoko & Murry all hit the ball much harder than Fed, huh? Have you ever seen him hit live or do you just watch on TV?

Exactly...good grief. Murray hits as hard as me..

Mj

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:28 PM
Yeah......Fed smashed a racket! Whooopeeeeee.....the guy is human. WE, THE FANS, have made him into a godlike creature...WE and the SPORTING WORLD have elevated his status from ordinary human to incredible God of Tennis.

It is us who are disappointed because WE expect so much more from our idol. WE need to give him a break...(yep he did that with the tennis racket). The pressure that he must be under in terms of media asking him moronic questions, commentators picking up on his EVERY mistake. There is no other tennis player on the tour that has to put up with so much. I FIRMLY AND TRULY believe that. Even when Fed plays these days, I listen to Eurosports, Skysports and other channels all reporting on 'the decline' of Fed....'Will he or won't he'....Arghhhhhhh.

I want to scream. Whatever he did yesterday, it was ONE incident out of a million times he has wowed us with his class, his expertise, his technique. WE, the fans need to put things into perspective. Roger is a great champion. He ALWAYS will be. He is an intelligent man and if he chooses not to seek outside help then there is no way forward for him, but that will be his decision. If he does, then there is hope. But it is his decision. We can hypothesise about what he has done, what he should do, but only Roger can make that choice. I couldn't believe it initially. I thought he was going to storm through the game, like he did with Roddick (in terms of playing great tennis). But once again, he lost his nerve. He choked.

Great first set, confidence flying, second set, very poor. Third set..........................A-P-P-A-L-L-I-N-G. BUT. I remember this time last year, Djokovic at US Open, playing the crowd, clapping and jeering...Commentators writing him off. 'Djokovic is low in confidence, change of racket, he's finished'........Then what happens...slowly....slowly....he gets things together, gets his act sorted, comes back. It's what happens. Right now, I doubt Roger. I hate myself for that. And so I need to work on ME. I want to believe that Roger is going to find a way, but when he loses (even though, let's not forget, he DOES get to the business end of things...), I hate it. Kooyong 2009, won, Doha Semi finals, IW, semi finals, Miami Semifinals. It's NOT a bad record. It is just that we have come to expect so much more........It is great that he is not playing Monte Carlo. I believe Roger is still hungry and motivated to win. He does need to sort out his head though. No doubt. And let us not forget....that potty mouth Roddick and Murray, saying the 'F' word on more than one occasion in this tournament, in full view of children and the like, that isn't sportsmanship.....Does that get picked up on? No! But because it is 'Fed in decline'...everyone is joining the bandwagon. We need to calm it down......

GEEZ. First it was Mirka, then it mono, now it's our fault.

It's never Fed's fault.

If that's what you got out of reading that post :shock: then you have zero comprehension skills!
If you just want to create a hostile environment by making people angry then you are a troll, which is really sad...

So which one is it?

Is everyone who disagrees with you a troll?

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Fed is going through the same hurtle that a number of other great players have gone through; mental burnout. It's very difficult to maintain that great level of play for so many years and no one has ever done it as long as Fed. However, no one can keep that up forever. Fed is thinking about it too much and pressing. It happened to Agassi when he was 28 and he dropped below 100 in the rankings. He went back to square one and won most of his majors from there.

Fed is not playing freely anymore or enjoying the game as much. Pushing for that 14th, 15th etc. is taking it's toll on him. He needs to go back to what he did to get to the number 1 position, relax and work hard, then his game will flow; clear his mind and have fun again. He may need an outside source in a coach to show him that or maybe get away from the game for a bit. Maybe having his kid will do that for him.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

Completely agree. It's obvious when you observe him on court.

clayman2000
04-04-2009, 08:34 PM
I guess Nadal is done and can no longer beat Del Potro, too.
This tired old mantra was repeated after he won the US Open as well.

Want to bet he makes it to the final of the next Grand Slam he plays?

So Nadals done cause he cant beat DP, Federer is done becuase he has only made 1 GS final and 2 Masters semies, Djokovic is done becuase he lost to Roddick 3 and 2, Roddicks done because Murray and Federer own him, Davydenko is done becuase he is not playing. Simon is done cause he's a pusher, Verdasco becuase Murray killed him, and Tsongas done cuase Djoker beat him.

So i guess that means Murray and DP are going to dominate then?
Those two guys for the RG final anyone :razz:

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:37 PM
Fed's decline is both physical and mental:

In terms of pure physical ability and skill, he is just not as good as he was in his peak, and never will be again. That's just a natural part of getting older and more worn. His reflexes are not quite as sharp, his footwork is not quite as good, and his physical intensity can't be sustained at the highest level over the course of a match.

This is not a knock on Fed - everyone goes through physical decline as they get past the pysical peak (which is probably 23 - 25 for mens tennis).

Having said that, even now he still has physical skills that compare favorably with most if not all of the players on tour. So I think he could still win slams with his current ability, even though it's less than it once was.

The mental decline is IMO what is costing him the most. He has been unable to adjust mentally to his declining physical ability.

* He needs to be more flexible in his gameplan (both before and during matches), and play in a way that reflects his current skills, and takes more advantage of his opponents' relative weaknesses. It looks like he is still trying to impose the 'Fed game' on everyone, but it's just not there anymore. So he needs to get smarter about how he plays.

* He needs to mentally accept that he is no longer going to overwhelm everyone, and control the frustration that he must surely feel because of that.

* He needs to realize that opportunities to win big titles are going to become more and more precious, and must each be exploited as much as possible.

Of couse most of this is obvious and must also be obvious to Fed. But he seems paralyzed and unable to do anything about it. He really needs a coach.

Fantastic and objective post!

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:42 PM
You could almost see this coming.

Fed was notoriously emotional as a junior. He learned toto control his emotions just enough to allow his talent to shine through. He not only started winning but dominating the sport. But just bc he we didn't see him emotionally break down while he was dominant, it doesn't mean that he totally gained control over his darkside. Winning so much may have prevented him from coming to full terms with his emotional makeup. Now his negative emotions are starting to rear their head as he has to deal with adversity again.

Add to this the competition getting better and Fed getting older. Unlike Agassi who had a game that could still work well as his physical abilities declined, Federrer's unique style of play doesn't fair as well. Agassi: large headed, heavy racquet, baseline game, with traditional double bend technique, and 2 hbh. Federrer: uses a small headed relatively light frame that requires a lot of racquet head speed, one handed backhand, unorthodox straight arm swing. Fed's style requires a lot of precision and timing. He's going to have a very difficult time adjusting as he loses a step, especially with the competition now being the best it's been over the last 10 years.

I am not a Fed hater but if you combine Fed not fulling coming to terms with his negative emotions with the fact that his game doesn't transition well as he ages, I think Fed's chance of breaking Pete's record is in serious trouble.

The bold, red portion is spot on, IMO.

However, his K90 is quite a bit heavier than Agassi's Radical OS. It's far from a relatively light frame. So, scratch that part of the argument.

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:44 PM
it happens in sports all the time, once one reaches a certain age things just go awry. it was difficult to watch Federer play and his post match interview was even more difficult to watch. he needs to regroup and find love for the game even when he's losing. right now he is the most miserable multi grandslam winner I've ever seen in recent history.

Completely agree with you!

TheTruth
04-04-2009, 08:46 PM
Is everyone who disagrees with you a troll?

Yep!..........

vtmike
04-04-2009, 08:48 PM
Yep!..........

Did I call you and Bud a troll??

Bud
04-04-2009, 08:48 PM
Funny, wonder why the majority of the negative BS is largely from fanboys of Sampras, Nadal and Djokovic? Weak

Give us an intelligent, analytical opinion instead of resorting to infantile name calling.

Paul Murphy
04-05-2009, 01:23 AM
Use your head please.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean but if you were aiming at being clever you merely succeeded in being obtuse in the extreme.
I have no idea what you are getting at and please don't bother attempting to clarify as I have no interest.

devila
04-06-2009, 01:35 AM
First off, there was no talk about Pete declining at 27 years in 1998. He had a more off year than others years in 98 but the "decline" part was virtually non existent at the time. And by 1999 he was injured but was still the best in the world. Even Agassi commented he doesnt feel he is number 1 at the time because he coulkdnt beat Pete.

I think this "Fed decline" crap is just Federer fans trying to find some sort of crux or excuse to place the blame on. Yet rarely do they give mention that Fed just has a tougher group of boys around on top to deal with than he did. Fed was so dominant because there wasnt the talent on top that we see today with the likes of Murray, Djoker, and Nadal. Fed could very well have lost to these guys 04-07. Which he did actually. His only losses in 06 were to Murray and Nadal.


Of course they have to blame it on a "decline". God forbid the glaring truth that Fed dominated in era with not many greats or greats who were passed their best days or yet to reach them would be too much for them to handle.

There is no doubt in my mind, he wouldnt been nearly as dominant had Nadal primed, and Murray and Djoker came along during the same time Roger did. They would all take tourneys away from roger. They are just a more talented group of guys and with more of the complete package than others Fed had to deal with like Hewitt, Roddick, Davydenko etc. And the biggest thing is, they dont fear Roger. They know they can beat him. The others didnt.
Federer has better competition, but his arrogance is the same as it was before the year 2002. Few people paid attention to his negative behavior and hardly anyone knew much about him back then, that's all.
I remember Pat McEnroe boasting like he knew how much integrity Federer had 4 years ago. He kept saying, "I'd pay to see a free Fed match".
He didn't see how bitter and contemptuous
Federer was either.
Roddick, many folks forgot easily, has improved at age 26 because he improved his fitness decisions. His laziness, attitude about beating Federer, and lack of desire to win are the main problems he has now.
Before this year, he never moved his feet fast and served extremely poorly against the top 30 players.

Of course, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Stepanek, etc. are never beating Federer again unless Federer's injured and sick.

mandy01
04-06-2009, 01:50 AM
First off, there was no talk about Pete declining at 27 years in 1998. He had a more off year than others years in 98 but the "decline" part was virtually non existent at the time. And by 1999 he was injured but was still the best in the world. Even Agassi commented he doesnt feel he is number 1 at the time because he coulkdnt beat Pete.

I think this "Fed decline" crap is just Federer fans trying to find some sort of crux or excuse to place the blame on. Yet rarely do they give mention that Fed just has a tougher group of boys around on top to deal with than he did. Fed was so dominant because there wasnt the talent on top that we see today with the likes of Murray, Djoker, and Nadal. Fed could very well have lost to these guys 04-07. Which he did actually. His only losses in 06 were to Murray and Nadal.


Of course they have to blame it on a "decline". God forbid the glaring truth that Fed dominated in era with not many greats or greats who were passed their best days or yet to reach them would be too much for them to handle.

There is no doubt in my mind, he wouldnt been nearly as dominant had Nadal primed, and Murray and Djoker came along during the same time Roger did. They would all take tourneys away from roger. They are just a more talented group of guys and with more of the complete package than others Fed had to deal with like Hewitt, Roddick, Davydenko etc. And the biggest thing is, they dont fear Roger. They know they can beat him. The others didnt. Stop going on like a broken record about the same old crap.Weak competition and all.. :roll:

veroniquem
04-06-2009, 04:48 PM
So Nadals done cause he cant beat DP, Federer is done becuase he has only made 1 GS final and 2 Masters semies, Djokovic is done becuase he lost to Roddick 3 and 2, Roddicks done because Murray and Federer own him, Davydenko is done becuase he is not playing. Simon is done cause he's a pusher, Verdasco becuase Murray killed him, and Tsongas done cuase Djoker beat him.

So i guess that means Murray and DP are going to dominate then?
Those two guys for the RG final anyone :razz:
Nadal has won 2 tournaments (and 1st round of Davis Cup) in 2009. Murray has won 3 tournaments. Djokovic has won 1. What has Federer won? Saying Fed is done doesn't mean he can't beat anyone, it means he's getting dominated by the other top players which, if it continues, will make it problematic for him to WIN big events (as opposed to just go far in them).

OddJack
04-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Federer smashed a raquet? so what? He lost to Djocovic? So what? He's not gonna win any slam or any matches anymore? So what?

He has inspired me like no other player and is and will be the best in my book. Decline or no decline, he's the best ever happened to tennis. Now you go get a kick out of his losses. Fans who are worthy of any opinions in the game will stay his fan and it's not going to change anything.

And about coaching...
Whether he needs a coach or not is his own decision and i will trust that. There is no guarantee that a coach will do anything special, look at Cahil and Verdasco.

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 05:40 PM
Federer has better competition, but his arrogance is the same as it was before the year 2002. Few people paid attention to his negative behavior and hardly anyone knew much about him back then, that's all.
I remember Pat McEnroe boasting like he knew how much integrity Federer had 4 years ago. He kept saying, "I'd pay to see a free Fed match".
He didn't see how bitter and contemptuous
Federer was either.
Roddick, many folks forgot easily, has improved at age 26 because he improved his fitness decisions. His laziness, attitude about beating Federer, and lack of desire to win are the main problems he has now.
Before this year, he never moved his feet fast and served extremely poorly against the top 30 players.

Of course, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Stepanek, etc. are never beating Federer again unless Federer's injured and sick.


Well sure in Roddick's case. Unfortunately, even though his fitness may have improved and he can move around the court better, it doesnt negate the fact that Fed can and will always be able to handle Roddick. His game has too many holes.

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 05:40 PM
Stop going on like a broken record about the same old crap.Weak competition and all.. :roll:

Ohh jeesh.. Settle down.

P_Agony
04-06-2009, 05:46 PM
Yes, Federer had a weak field, sure. That's why Nalbandian has a winning streak over Nadal. That is why Roddick has beaten Djokovic twice this year. Oh, and didn't Davydenko beat the crap out of Murray in that Masters Cup? Sure, weak field.

And now for the truth: Federer was just so talented and good, that even the most talented players in the world, couldn't touch him. Safin is more talented than the trio of Nadal, Murray and Djokovic, and is talented just as much as Federer. Safin, when on, is the exact opposite of a "weak field". Nalbandian and Davydenko are guys full of talent, and even today, when they're on, they are capable of beating almost anyone. I haven't even mentioned guys like Agassi and Hewitt, who were both in Federer's era. Federer has also defeated Sampras on his favorite surface, so I guess Sampras makes for a weak field too. Federer's field was just as strong as today's, but Federer made it look weak because he was just so darn good.

Don't let Federer's decline fool you. He's losing because he's lost his confidence and a bit of his speed. If he gets that back, and that's a big if, he's untouchable again.

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 05:48 PM
Yes, Federer had a weak field, sure. That's why Nalbandian has a winning streak over Nadal. That is why Roddick has beaten Djokovic twice this year. Oh, and didn't Davydenko beat the crap out of Murray in that Masters Cup? Sure, weak field.

And now for the truth: Federer was just so talented and good, that even the most talented players in the world, couldn't touch him. Safin is more talented than the trio of Nadal, Murray and Djokovic, and is talented just as much as Federer. Safin, when on, is the exact opposite of a "weak field". Nalbandian and Davydenko are guys full of talent, and even today, when they're on, they are capable of beating almost anyone. I haven't even mentioned guys like Agassi and Hewitt, who ere both in Federer's era. Federer has also defeated Sampras on his favorite surface, so I guess Sampras makes for a weak field too. Federer's field was just as strong as today's, but Federer made it look weak because he was just so darn good.

Oh come on.. Andre by that time was pushing mid 30s. While he was still solid he wasnt as solid years prior and by the time his body was breaking down. Andre was not really apart of Fed's era. He was apart of Pete's. He has 11 years on Fed. He was 33-35 freakin years old at that point

P_Agony
04-06-2009, 05:54 PM
Oh come on.. Andre by that time was pushing mid 30s. While he was still solid he wasnt as solid years prior and by the time his body was breaking down. Andre was not really apart of Fed's era. He was apart of Pete's. He has 11 years on Fed. He was 33-35 freakin years old at that point

Sorry, but you've got no case. I usually like your posts, but I think you're wrong about the weak field comment. Even if we take Andre out of the equation, there are still plenty of guys which were downright awesome, and some of them are still doing great today, like the examples I gave above. Hewitt and Nalbandian gave Federer a lot of trouble at first, very much like Nadal and Murray today. However, Federer then just entered his prime and improved so much he turned it around and today he owns them both. With Nadal and Murray, I truly believe if Federer was just entering his prime the results would be very much the same. Nalbandian is just as talented as Murray and IMO more talented than Nadal.

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 06:10 PM
Sorry, but you've got no case. I usually like your posts, but I think you're wrong about the weak field comment. Even if we take Andre out of the equation, there are still plenty of guys which were downright awesome, and some of them are still doing great today, like the examples I gave above. Hewitt and Nalbandian gave Federer a lot of trouble at first, very much like Nadal and Murray today. However, Federer then just entered his prime and improved so much he turned it around and today he owns them both. With Nadal and Murray, I truly believe if Federer was just entering his prime the results would be very much the same. Nalbandian is just as talented as Murray and IMO more talented than Nadal.

Well we will never know. But I stand by my opinion that 04-07 was "weaker" than currently IMO. I shouldnt say it was WEAK. Just "weaker". At least at the top today. Yes Fed just entered his prime in 04 and arguabably it lasted until 07. But IMO, Nadal never even reached his until 08. Before than he was just a great clay court player, with great potential on grass. Now he is winning on all surfaces and has his strongest showing at the USO this past year, playing the olympics and making it all the way to the semis at the USO . Whereas years prior he couldnt touch a HC slam final much less win the AO and beat Fed in doing so. He was losing to the likes of Youzhny and Ferrer at hardcourt slams. Thats not even mentioning Djoker and Murray who I feel are better players than Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Blake, Davydenko etc. Sure Nalbandian and Safin may just be as talented as any player today unfortunately they couldnt keep it together consistently and Safin was off the radar more than he was on it and Nalbandian always usually performed below expectations especially the slams. Hewitt was tough but he fizzeled out fast due to injuries

I guess we'll just agree to disagree

fastdunn
04-06-2009, 06:11 PM
But actually from 2007, Federer started to focus more at slams losing earlier at non-slam events. He successfully focused on slam only in 2007.

Only differences are the two very close losses at Wimbledon 2008 and Australian Open 2009. Nadal is only factor and he has been always factor since 2005.So I think he is in a bit of dilemma on whether he really needs to change anything or not. In the mean time, Murray is quickly becoming a factor here...

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 06:17 PM
But actually from 2007, Federer started to focus more at slams losing earlier at non-slam events. He successfully focused on slam only in 2007.

Only differences are the two very close losses at Wimbledon 2008 and Australian Open 2009. Nadal is only factor and he has been always factor since 2005.So I think he is in a bit of dilemma on whether he really needs to change anything or not. In the mean time, Murray is quickly becoming a factor here...

But prior to 09 could Nadal even reach a HC slam final much less win one, much less against Roger? Nadal has always been a factor (but before it was mostly on clay and he was becoming a good grass player but his HC game left much to be desired) he needed tweaking in his game to adapt to all surfaces which he is doing today. I dont think its a coincidence that as soon as Nadal matured, tweaked his game, hit his prime, Fed loses the number 1 ranking and loses the last 3 of the 4 slams to Nadal.

RalphNYC
04-06-2009, 06:24 PM
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veroniquem
04-06-2009, 06:24 PM
Yes, Federer had a weak field, sure. That's why Nalbandian has a winning streak over Nadal. That is why Roddick has beaten Djokovic twice this year. Oh, and didn't Davydenko beat the crap out of Murray in that Masters Cup? Sure, weak field.

And now for the truth: Federer was just so talented and good, that even the most talented players in the world, couldn't touch him. Safin is more talented than the trio of Nadal, Murray and Djokovic, and is talented just as much as Federer. Safin, when on, is the exact opposite of a "weak field". Nalbandian and Davydenko are guys full of talent, and even today, when they're on, they are capable of beating almost anyone. I haven't even mentioned guys like Agassi and Hewitt, who were both in Federer's era. Federer has also defeated Sampras on his favorite surface, so I guess Sampras makes for a weak field too. Federer's field was just as strong as today's, but Federer made it look weak because he was just so darn good.

Don't let Federer's decline fool you. He's losing because he's lost his confidence and a bit of his speed. If he gets that back, and that's a big if, he's untouchable again.
I vigorously disagree with your claim that Agassi and Sampras were "in Federer's era". Sampras was almost 30 when Fed beat him in their unique encounter and Fed beat Agassi for the first time when Agassi was 33. Both Agassi and Sampras represent the era before Fed. Fed's contemporaries were Hewitt, Roddick, Nalby, Davy and Safin.
And by the way your claim of Nalby having a "winning streak against Nadal" is even more preposterous, a winning streak of... 2 matches??!!! Played in the same month??? Very short streak, isn't it? :roll:

vtmike
04-06-2009, 06:27 PM
But prior to 09 could Nadal even reach a HC slam final much less win one, much less against Roger? Nadal has always been a factor (but before it was mostly on clay and he was becoming a good grass player but his HC game left much to be desired) he needed tweaking in his game to adapt to all surfaces which he is doing today. I dont think its a coincidence that as soon as Nadal matured, tweaked his game, hit his prime, Fed loses the number 1 ranking and loses the last 3 of the 4 slams to Nadal.

So whats your point...you can't expect Fed to hold onto the num 1 rank forever...At some point there will be a young player who will take over...honestly Federer is NOT at his best which is very obvious and if you cannot see that then you are just trying to make Sampras look good by saying otherwise...Tell me honestly if you think the Fed of today is the same player as he was from 04-07?? because to the majority of posters that is pretty obvious

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 06:31 PM
So whats your point...you can't expect Fed to hold onto the num 1 rank forever...At some point there will be a young player who will take over...honestly Federer is NOT at his best which is very obvious and if you cannot see that then you are just trying to make Sampras look good by saying otherwise...Tell me honestly if you think the Fed of today is the same player as he was from 04-07?? because to the majority of posters that is pretty obvious

Lets put it this way.. If you take Nadal out of the equation in 2008 and 2009. How many slams do u think Fed gets? At least 3 last year no questions asked. French, Wimbeldon, and the USO are all his in 08. And maybe even at least 3 this year since he may have won the AO considering he would have had to play Verdasco. I dont think Fed is as dominant on a consistent basis week in week out currently as he was 04-07. But he doesnt need to be. Hes at the point in his career where breaking the slam record is more important. Fed still can kick it into that extra gear when it matters most at the slams. He has shown this. What does winning Indian Wells, Miami, Dubai etc do for Fed at this point in his career when he is on the brink of breaking the slam record? Fed will kick into that extra gear at the next 3 slams though.. Just as we saw at the USO last year and the AO this year. Hes conserving himself. But Nadal still stands in the way. Murray maybe, but he still hasnt proven to be a "slam player". I dunno about Djoker anymore. Last great tennis at the slams from him was AO 08

veroniquem
04-06-2009, 06:34 PM
Well we will never know. But I stand by my opinion that 04-07 was "weaker" than currently IMO. I shouldnt say it was WEAK. Just "weaker". At least at the top today. Yes Fed just entered his prime in 04 and arguabably it lasted until 07. But IMO, Nadal never even reached his until 08. Before than he was just a great clay court player, with great potential on grass. Now he is winning on all surfaces and has his strongest showing at the USO this past year, playing the olympics and making it all the way to the semis at the USO . Whereas years prior he couldnt touch a HC slam final much less win the AO and beat Fed in doing so. He was losing to the likes of Youzhny and Ferrer at hardcourt slams. Thats not even mentioning Djoker and Murray who I feel are better players than Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Blake, Davydenko etc. Sure Nalbandian and Safin may just be as talented as any player today unfortunately they couldnt keep it together consistently and Safin was off the radar more than he was on it and Nalbandian always usually performed below expectations especially the slams. Hewitt was tough but he fizzeled out fast due to injuries

I guess we'll just agree to disagree
I agree with your assessment. It seems fair to me. The most talented players in Fed's era were Safin and Nalby but they were mental disasters. It's not Fed's fault of course, it's just the way it is. The most consistent ones were Davy and Roddick but those 2 weren't as talented. All in all, I would say the early 90s with Agassi, Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Courier and Chang had an incredibly strong field.

GameSampras
04-06-2009, 06:45 PM
I agree with your assessment. It seems fair to me. The most talented players in Fed's era were Safin and Nalby but they were mental disasters. It's not Fed's fault of course, it's just the way it is. The most consistent ones were Davy and Roddick but those 2 weren't as talented. All in all, I would say the early 90s with Agassi, Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Courier and Chang had an incredibly strong field.

I agree definitely. Yea early to mid 90s did have some great talent there and was definitely no joke in terms of overrall competition and talent. But even as a Sampras I will be the first to admit the field kind of fizzeled out late 90s-early 00's. It certainly wasnt as a strong as it was a few years prior. Then Andre came back in 99 like a house of fire and made it interesting again, also Rafter etc.

VictorS.
04-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Federer has better competition, but his arrogance is the same as it was before the year 2002. Few people paid attention to his negative behavior and hardly anyone knew much about him back then, that's all.
I remember Pat McEnroe boasting like he knew how much integrity Federer had 4 years ago. He kept saying, "I'd pay to see a free Fed match".
He didn't see how bitter and contemptuous
Federer was either.
Roddick, many folks forgot easily, has improved at age 26 because he improved his fitness decisions. His laziness, attitude about beating Federer, and lack of desire to win are the main problems he has now.
Before this year, he never moved his feet fast and served extremely poorly against the top 30 players.

Of course, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Stepanek, etc. are never beating Federer again unless Federer's injured and sick.

Has Federer lost a step? Yes. Is it because of age? I don't think so. Could it be due to burn-out? Very possible.

devila
04-06-2009, 10:35 PM
I saw Safin, Hewitt and Nalbandian decline.
Safin can't keep any shot on court, so how can you say he had more talent than Roddick and Nalbandian? Hewitt overachieved with 2002's Wimbledon, 2001 US Open luck and 2005 meltdowns from Roddick, but Hewitt's mind isn't good enough to fight his spiral downward.

I don't see Federer
declining. His failures are exposed on fast courts and he can't hide it like he did 4 years ago.
He just can't add smart game plans as well as less physically agile (less strong, less quick, less flexible) players
like Nadal, Murray and even Roddick. He won't accept the truth, and no coach will do anything for him. He had more support when other players had little help from bad coaches. He also had more practice at Wimbledon Center Court, and had lucky Slam draws and walkovers too.

Nadal is willing to accept change and could change intelligently. Roddick finally could change in a short time period, after
he spent years denying that he had enough talent. That's because his family
didn't really care much about tennis results. Murray, always spent time outside his home country, so it's no surprise that his game evolved with his fitness.