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ScovilleJenkins
04-04-2009, 05:37 PM
I keep hearing how Miami is the 5th Grand Slam. What makes it better than Indian Wells?

Mungo73
04-04-2009, 05:39 PM
that 5th slam thing is complete bull-**** there are 4 slams

monte carlo is the most prestigious masters

Storm
04-04-2009, 05:41 PM
It is referred to as the Grand Slam of South America

ihearit1st
04-04-2009, 05:42 PM
Monte Carlo is out because its not WTA and ATP. So it wouldn't fit the "grand slam" style category.

Indian Wells would be up there with Miami.

rubberduckies
04-04-2009, 05:44 PM
The Italian Open / Rome Masters is the 5th slam.

Nadal_Freak
04-04-2009, 05:46 PM
I agree that Monte Carlo is the most presitgious Masters Series. Americans always make more of the touraments in their location. Even as an American, I find that annoying.

JediMindTrick
04-04-2009, 05:47 PM
Indian Wells is the 5th grand slam. Miami is a wannabe.

Mungo73
04-04-2009, 05:49 PM
Monte Carlo is out because its not WTA and ATP. So it wouldn't fit the "grand slam" style category.

Indian Wells would be up there with Miami.

yeah but man it sucks when we have to wait for womens matches to finish, choke after choke...i like mens tourneys better

i cant wait for monte carlo, vamos rafa!!!!

ihearit1st
04-04-2009, 05:49 PM
The Italian Open / Rome Masters is the 5th slam.

Italian Open is much smaller than Indian Wells or Sony Ericsson for women. 2 million in prize money vs. 4.5 million.

They also wouldn't fit the "grand slam" mold because they do not run at the same time.

ihearit1st
04-04-2009, 05:50 PM
yeah but man it sucks when we have to wait for women matches to finish, choke after choke...i like mens tourneys better

i cant wait for monte carlo, vamos rafa!!!!

This isn't at all relevant to the topic.

Nadal_Freak
04-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Alright Indian Wells and Miami are the biggest according to the organization of them. I find that annoying that we have so many big hard court tournaments. There should be more big clay court tournaments. Balance out them at least. Maybe downgrade Miami to regular Masters format and upgrade Monte Carlo.

jaggy
04-04-2009, 06:46 PM
Africa needs a big tourney, I am thinking move the end of season Masters for both men and women to South Africa and it could be a December 5th slam.

chlsmo
04-04-2009, 06:47 PM
Alright Indian Wells and Miami are the biggest according to the organization of them. I find that annoying that we have so many big hard court tournaments. There should be more big clay court tournaments. Balance out them at least. Maybe downgrade Miami to regular Masters format and upgrade Monte Carlo.

Isn't Ion Tiriac (sp.) working on that? I think the new Madrid 1000 is a ATP/WTA clay event. Still only one week though, I think.

stormholloway
04-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Borg declared the Italian Open the '5th slam' when he was playing. Actually, he considered it greater than the Australian and thought it should replace that tournament.

Most of what people talk about on this subject is nonsense. Instead of just calling something a slam, people should focus more on what would actually make the tournament better for the sport.

dr325i
04-04-2009, 07:08 PM
Indian Wells is the 5th grand slam. Miami is a wannabe.

Maybe that is why it won "The best tournament award" many years in a row???
I think IW is a wannabe...

Bud
04-04-2009, 07:22 PM
I keep hearing how Miami is the 5th Grand Slam. What makes it better than Indian Wells?

Which tournament has been held longer? :wink:

Miami started in 1985

IW started in 1988

ruerooo
04-04-2009, 07:41 PM
It is referred to as the Grand Slam of South America

Miami, despite a large Spanish-speaking population, is in North America.
Why would it be called a slam of South America?

Tshooter
04-04-2009, 07:42 PM
Miami > Indian Wells for a number of reasons not the least of which is two of the stars of the women's game never play Indian Wells.

Bud
04-04-2009, 07:42 PM
Miami, despite a large Spanish-speaking population, is in North America.
Why would it be called a slam of South America?

He wasn't referring to Miami.

ruerooo
04-04-2009, 07:42 PM
Africa needs a big tourney, I am thinking move the end of season Masters for both men and women to South Africa and it could be a December 5th slam.

I think they're trying to build up the Johannesburg tournament that Tsonga won this year to be that.
I'm not sure what kind of progress has been made so far, though.

ruerooo
04-04-2009, 07:43 PM
He wasn't referring to Miami.

How do you know?
And if (s)he weren't, why would it make sense to be referring to IW?

Not trying to be belligerent. Just confused.

simi
04-04-2009, 07:51 PM
Miami > Indian Wells for a number of reasons not the least of which is two of the stars of the women's game never play Indian Wells.

That alone make IW a "better" tournament.

Just kidding . . . well, maybe not totally. I also find this talk about Miami/IW "interesting". Just that, "talk". I don't really care. Been going to IW every year for a few now, and after seeing the draw for Surise this year, I just might make Fort Lauderdale/MIami into an extended vacation next year. Hmmm, let's see, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, of opening weekend at IW; fly to Fort Lauderdale to catch the Sunrise tournament, then a few days at Crandon Park. Stay with daughter and her husband while also visiting the grandkids. Sounds nice!

Bud
04-04-2009, 07:53 PM
How do you know?
And if (s)he weren't, why would it make sense to be referring to IW?

Not trying to be belligerent. Just confused.

I figured he/she was incorrectly referring to Monte Carlo... thinking it was the Montecarlo in Argentina.

That made more sense since NY (i.e. North America) already has a GS Tourny, the US Open and neither Miami nor IW is in South America.

Tshooter
04-04-2009, 07:55 PM
"Most of what people talk about on this subject is nonsense"

It's hardly nonsense. It's good marketing. The Miami Masters draws a huge and enthusiastic crowd from Central and South American countries to see the "South American Slam."

As for Borg's comments. I think what he said was correct in the late 70s and arguably into the early 80s. A lot has changed since. Rome is way down the list of player/sponsor priorities today. And The Australian was resurrected from the dead to be a full-fledged member of the GS.

Bud
04-04-2009, 07:58 PM
"Most of what people talk about on this subject is nonsense"

It's hardly nonsense. It's good marketing. The Miami Masters draws a huge and enthusiastic crowd from Central and South American countries to see the "South American Slam."

As for Borg's comments. I think what he said was correct in the late 70s and arguably into the early 80s. A lot has changed since. Rome is way down the list of player/sponsor priorities today. And The Australian was resurrected from the dead to be a full-fledged member of the GS.

Well, color me wrong :oops:

I've never heard it referred to as that. Perhaps, if you're from SA, you're aware of that moniker.

Musta been why all those obnoxious Delpo supporters were in the crowd during the Nadal match :twisted:

_maxi
04-04-2009, 08:10 PM
I have always considered as the fifth grand slam the masters cup.

leonidas1982
04-04-2009, 08:16 PM
Miami does get the highest tv ratings in Latin America outside of the slams. moreover, many residents of Latin America travel to Miami for the tournament.

Feña14
04-04-2009, 08:21 PM
Peter Fleming calls Miami "The South American Major" thanks to the huge support the players from that region receive from a large section of the locals.

clayman2000
04-04-2009, 08:23 PM
I keep hearing how Miami is the 5th Grand Slam. What makes it better than Indian Wells?

This is actually from the past, as a while ago, IW was a 64 draw like all the other masters, and Miami was the only 96. Thus since it had the largest draws for both men and women outside the slams, it was coined the 5th Major.

In terms of the most important Masters, i really doubt that any of the clay masters are seen as the most important, even to clay courters. This is becuase traditionally, a lot of big seeds go out early and there are usually surprise players at the end of tourneys (eg. Wawrinka Rome 08, Gonzo Rome 07, Stepanek Hamburg 06), so it has a rep of thus not being important.

!Tym
04-04-2009, 11:31 PM
This is actually from the past, as a while ago, IW was a 64 draw like all the other masters, and Miami was the only 96. Thus since it had the largest draws for both men and women outside the slams, it was coined the 5th Major.

In terms of the most important Masters, i really doubt that any of the clay masters are seen as the most important, even to clay courters. This is becuase traditionally, a lot of big seeds go out early and there are usually surprise players at the end of tourneys (eg. Wawrinka Rome 08, Gonzo Rome 07, Stepanek Hamburg 06), so it has a rep of thus not being important.

It doesn't have a rep for not being important, not at all imo. "Surprises" happen at hard court masters too. Remember guys like Bhodan Uhlirach, Andrei Pavel, and worst of all HAREL LEVY (a *career* challenger level guy outside of this one run basically) made their greatest glories at hardcourt masters events. It's inevitable. Just because Felip Dewulf made it deep at the French two years in a row doesn't mean the French isn't prestigious anymore. Just because Wally Masur once almost made the finals of the US Open doesn't mean it's not prestigious anymore.

Miami WAS considered the "5th slam" in the 80s and most of the nineties, but imo, that is no longer the case. Imo, Miami was once considered MUCH more prestigious than it is now, back when it was called the Lipton. Imo, it lost its "brand appeal" and became generic sounding when they lost Lipton as their title sponsor. The name was synonymous with the tournament, and once a tournament loses it's ESTABLISHED "brand" name, I think it's difficult to recover from that. Furthermore, back then, Miami was the ONLY tournament outside the slams to field two-gender draws. Indian Wells IS the wannabe these days, but the problem for Maimi is that Indian Wells has done a VERY good job of putting on a world class tournament themselves, and in doing so, their prestige has grown, and Miami's has lessened significantly. Miami is no longer the star, it's been "caught up" to by other ambitious tournament organizeers who've upped the ante.

Winning Miami today is NOWHERE near as "prestigious" as it was when Muster won it in 97 imo. Back then, it really must have felt like something to him. These days, however, I think the tournament is more or less seen AND treated as just another masters series to most players. Yeah, it's still a little more important, but no longer MUCH more important "feeling" than the other masters series events. A Miami win before meant something...today it kind of just feels like, ok, so you won a masters series, good for you, what do you want, a Tennis Warehouse party for your troubles?

tennis_hand
04-04-2009, 11:56 PM
that 5th slam thing is complete bull-**** there are 4 slams

monte carlo is the most prestigious masters

why is Monte carlo most prestigious? because it is in MC? that is also slow clay bull-*****.

after the 4 Slams, it is the year end championship. No argument about it.

Kobble
04-05-2009, 12:00 AM
It doesn't have a rep for not being important, not at all imo. "Surprises" happen at hard court masters too. Remember guys like Bhodan Uhlirach, Andrei Pavel, and worst of all HAREL LEVY (a *career* challenger level guy outside of this one run basically) made their greatest glories at hardcourt masters events. It's inevitable. Just because Felip Dewulf made it deep at the French two years in a row doesn't mean the French isn't prestigious anymore. Just because Wally Masur once almost made the finals of the US Open doesn't mean it's not prestigious anymore.

Miami WAS considered the "5th slam" in the 80s and most of the nineties, but imo, that is no longer the case. Imo, Miami was once considered MUCH more prestigious than it is now, back when it was called the Lipton. Imo, it lost its "brand appeal" and became generic sounding when they lost Lipton as their title sponsor. The name was synonymous with the tournament, and once a tournament loses it's ESTABLISHED "brand" name, I think it's difficult to recover from that. Furthermore, back then, Miami was the ONLY tournament outside the slams to field two-gender draws. Indian Wells IS the wannabe these days, but the problem for Maimi is that Indian Wells has done a VERY good job of putting on a world class tournament themselves, and in doing so, their prestige has grown, and Miami's has lessened significantly. Miami is no longer the star, it's been "caught up" to by other ambitious tournament organizeers who've upped the ante.

Winning Miami today is NOWHERE near as "prestigious" as it was when Muster won it in 97 imo. Back then, it really must have felt like something to him. These days, however, I think the tournament is more or less seen AND treated as just another masters series to most players. Yeah, it's still a little more important, but no longer MUCH more important "feeling" than the other masters series events. A Miami win before meant something...today it kind of just feels like, ok, so you won a masters series, good for you, what do you want, a Tennis Warehouse party for your troubles?I agree. I don't know why they lost Lipton as the sponsor. I still called it the Lipton even years after they changed. I really wish I went there pre-1998. Once, I had the freetime to go it was basically a spanish speaking region. The year I went was disappointing. The rude foreigners were simply too much. These people live in shacks in Hialiah, now, and stole at fruit stands in their old country. Apparently, they are attracted to the Miami ghettos, so, I don't see how we can do anything about. Except, maybe move them to Opa Locka, or something.

Blinkism
04-05-2009, 12:32 AM
The Olympics are the closest thing to a Slam, I guess. It's kind of like the World Cup (soccer/football) in a sense.

The YEC are also pretty much the next best thing, on a yearly basis.

I've heard that by 2011 or 2012 the Master's series tourneys will all be combined men's/women's events and 2 weeks long. Anybody else hear this?

gj011
04-05-2009, 12:35 AM
There are only 4 slams. And it should stay that way. End of story.

bluetrain4
04-05-2009, 12:38 AM
I keep hearing how Miami is the 5th Grand Slam. What makes it better than Indian Wells?


There is some precedent for Miami being the "5th Slam", though I think that claim has always been more of a marketing term to get across the point that Miami is "big and important" than it is actually a belief that it is the 5th Slam.

Anyway, back when Miami was the "Lipton Championships" it was a bigger draw (128 or 96 I believe) and every round for a couple years was best of 5 sets. It had the big field, the sponsors, the TV coverage, and the format was similar to a Slam, and prize money was pretty big (it may have been more than the AO), so the 5th Slam talk started. Pay no mind to it. It's just a way to separate one non-Slam from the others.

TheNatural
04-05-2009, 02:40 AM
Then the Olympics
then the 4 slams
then the Davis cup and the masters cup
then the masters series events

Telepatic
04-05-2009, 03:49 AM
4 slams
Olympics
Masters cup
Davis cup
..

THERAFA
04-05-2009, 04:47 AM
There are enough slams already, please no more, just if anything move Aust Open to a month later.

Safinator_1
04-05-2009, 04:59 AM
Miami is in no way a 5th Slam, If there is such thing that title belongs to the Masters Cup or Tour end Championship whatever. Saying that is also a long shot itself.

I really don't think a 5th slam is necessary, the 4 we have is fine

THERAFA
04-05-2009, 05:02 AM
Plus a 5th slam won't feel prestige at all, it will feel like a fake slam, especially if it was Miami, you won't find European tennis fans calling some tournament in Miami a slam. Australian Open struggled for slamness for so long, it only is just gaining power.

Blinkism
04-05-2009, 06:04 AM
Plus a 5th slam won't feel prestige at all, it will feel like a fake slam, especially if it was Miami, you won't find European tennis fans calling some tournament in Miami a slam. Australian Open struggled for slamness for so long, it only is just gaining power.

The Aussie open is still kind of lacking in slam-ness... slam-ocity?

I think the key to a slam having some tradition would be for a single player to win it, atleast 3 times consecutively and atleast 5 times in their career. Andre Agassi is the closest thing to it, but a player who dominates the Australian Open will be attached to it's overall aura. Kind of like how Borg and Nadal own the French Open, and Sampras and Federer own Wimbledon.

Also, the Aussie Open is seen as the lesser hardcourt Grand Slam because of it's similarity to the U.S. Open, which itself is prestigious. Maybe another change of surface is needed? Carpet slam?

THERAFA
04-05-2009, 06:10 AM
Yeah Carpet slam sounds good to me, and change Sydney International and Adelaide Invitational and Tasmania and Hopman Cup to carpet too to make a full season of it.

I was disappointed when AO got rid of the rebound ace. I liked rebound ace especially when it was really slow, very good contrast back then.

Blinkism
04-05-2009, 06:51 AM
Yeah Carpet slam sounds good to me, and change Sydney International and Adelaide Invitational and Tasmania and Hopman Cup to carpet too to make a full season of it.

I was disappointed when AO got rid of the rebound ace. I liked rebound ace especially when it was really slow, very good contrast back then.

And a Carpet Slam would bring back some of the 90's style of play with the whole chip-and-charge and serve-and-volley thing going on.

I mean, if there's going to be any carpet tournaments played on the ATP tour, why not make a season out of it, or at the very least cap it off with a Master's Event (like Paris used to be).

Starting the year off with a Carpet season would be hilarious, just to see players adjust from the speed of the Carpet, then to the slow Clay, and then to Grass, and then to Hardcourts.

Definitely more entertaining!:)

THERAFA
04-05-2009, 08:44 PM
Yeah we should start carpet season next year I hope I can organise it in time.

JW10S
04-05-2009, 08:51 PM
IW has the highest fan attendance outside the 4 Slams. Miami, due to the fact that the Williams sisters do not play IW, has what some feel is the strongest field outside the Slams. 6 of 1, 1/2 a dozen of the other...

Re: carpet--carpet is hardly used on the tours at all anymore. It's obsolete.

THERAFA
04-05-2009, 09:25 PM
It won't be obsolete if New Zealand and Australia play all their post-Christmas events on it. Is carpet expensive?

Fee
04-05-2009, 09:35 PM
Indian Wells is the 5th grand slam. Miami is a wannabe.

Never has been, never will be.

My apologies if this answer has been given, I did not have time to read the entire thread... Miami is referred to as the '5th Slam' because years ago it was almost as large as a slam, it even had a mixed doubles draw. IW was a one week women's event followed by a one week men's event at the Hyatt Resort until about 10 years ago when the IW Tennis Garden was built. Miami was a mixed event years before that, back in the day when it was called The Lipton Championships. Miami used the 5th Slam nickname for years before IW tried to steal it.

vive le beau jeu !
04-06-2009, 01:35 AM
There are only 4 slams. And it should stay that way. End of story.
no 5th slam, but appart from the slams the most prestigious tournaments is without any doubt the (year-end) masters. :)

stormholloway
04-06-2009, 01:46 AM
Miami is a completely obnoxious tournament in my view. Lot of hecklers.

shadows
04-06-2009, 02:12 AM
heh British press were quick to note that Miami has at times been called the 5th slam while reporting Murrays win in the morning papers xD

I care nothing for the idea of a 5th slam really, more interested in a grass masters

cucio
04-06-2009, 02:44 AM
Ion Tiriac seems determined to make the new Madrid clay tournament a huge event. There was talk of offering even higher prize money than a GS. O_o

This has some of a "nouveau riche" smell to it, but you never know, perhaps some years down the road it becomes a legitimate classic in its own right.

Right now it is a 11-day tournament, both men and women, with a total prize money of 6.5 million euros, same as IW and Miami. Just to compare RG awards 15.5 M€, so there's a long long way.

Fedexeon
04-06-2009, 03:51 AM
I think Indian Well sold more tickets than Miami. They sold like around 330k of tickets while Miami sold 290k of tickets. But Miami generates more revenues from sponsors and also TV (the finals are in CBS while Indian Well's finals are in the GREAT FSN!) What i think is that both tournaments are great tournaments. Its nice to have some competition between these 2 tournaments so that the organizers would always try to improve the tournament.

The only bad things bout these 2 tournaments are they have FSN showing their matches which sucks.

Chuck772
07-17-2012, 07:00 PM
Ion Tiriac seems determined to make the new Madrid clay tournament a huge event. There was talk of offering even higher prize money than a GS. O_o

This has some of a "nouveau riche" smell to it, but you never know, perhaps some years down the road it becomes a legitimate classic in its own right.

Right now it is a 11-day tournament, both men and women, with a total prize money of 6.5 million euros, same as IW and Miami. Just to compare RG awards 15.5 M€, so there's a long long way.

There are lots of great Spanish players these days. i could see a tournament organized by whoever is the spanish tennis federation, spanish open, open de Espana, or something like that becoming very popular and prestigous.

Chuck772
07-17-2012, 07:02 PM
I think Indian Well sold more tickets than Miami. They sold like around 330k of tickets while Miami sold 290k of tickets. But Miami generates more revenues from sponsors and also TV (the finals are in CBS while Indian Well's finals are in the GREAT FSN!) What i think is that both tournaments are great tournaments. Its nice to have some competition between these 2 tournaments so that the organizers would always try to improve the tournament.

The only bad things bout these 2 tournaments are they have FSN showing their matches which sucks.

i've always had an idea to combine Indian wells and miami into a giant tournament taking up most of march. combining the fields, prize money etc. and using a rotation like is done at the rogers cup to host. 192 player singles draw, 128 doubles draw.

Chuck772
07-17-2012, 07:05 PM
that 5th slam thing is complete bull-**** there are 4 slams

monte carlo is the most prestigious masters

No way it could be a slam though, it should get more attention as a masters event anyways.

Fee
07-17-2012, 07:07 PM
quality bump of a 3 yr old thread there, bro.

darrinbaker00
07-17-2012, 08:06 PM
Butch Buchholz actually created the Miami tournament (now known as the Sony Open) to replace the Austrailian Open as a Grand Slam event. There was even a mixed doubles draw the first year, won by Martina Navratilova and Heinz Gunthardt.

Netspirit
07-18-2012, 01:50 AM
The World Tour Finals are the 5th slam.

It is the most prestigious tournament after the big 4, followed by IW, followed by other Masters except optional Monte Carlo, followed by Olympics, followed by Monte Carlo, followed by 500s and 250s.

MariaRafael
07-18-2012, 01:58 AM
I find that annoying that we have so many big hard court tournaments. There should be more big clay court tournaments. Balance out them at least. Maybe downgrade Miami to regular Masters format and upgrade Monte Carlo.

Unfortunately, it can't be done. The stadium is too small, and there's no way to extend it since Monte Carlo is climbing up the mountains and there's very little horizontal space. However, it is probably the only big tournament located in the club rather than stadium, and the place is beautiful.

MethodTennis
07-12-2013, 05:12 PM
I think that this is of great relevenance and is a completely unique discussion which should be continued

jaggy
07-12-2013, 06:01 PM
I think that this is of great relevenance and is a completely unique discussion which should be continued

No real discussion.

The only American slam is Cincy. End of.