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christos_liaskos
04-08-2009, 03:54 PM
We're into the fourth month of the 2009 season and personally I miss not having the Race anymore to show who is doing the best since the start of the year. For those of you who arent aware, the Race can be compared to a league table in football (soccer for you yanks). Everyone would start the beginning of January on 0 points and build up from there. Obviously we can still work out who has accumulated what points since the start of the year but personally I cant be bothered with the effort! I'm guessing Rafa would be no1 so far, Murray probably 2nd, Federer 3rd, Roddick 4th and not too sure after that. I know at the end of the season it the race doesnt mean much because the rankings themselves show performance over the last 52 weeks. But rankings are also affected throughout the year by what points players are defending. So a decent performance at one event may not be rewarded because they didnt actually equal the same result from the previous year. As I explained, the Race just adds points up, so instead of trying to work out what players need to do qualify for Master Cup at the end of the year, you can literally just say that a player either needs to keep their level as it is or improve.

I know some people didnt quite understand the Race when it was used, or the rankings as they are now.... so I hope that attempt at an explanation helped those of you who are/were confused about the two systems.

I'd like to apologize if anyone has already brought this subject up recently. I havent been on here for a couple of months so dont know exactly what's been talked about

tacou
04-08-2009, 04:37 PM
We're into the fourth month of the 2009 season and personally I miss not having the Race anymore to show who is doing the best since the start of the year. For those of you who arent aware, the Race can be compared to a league table in football (soccer for you yanks). Everyone would start the beginning of January on 0 points and build up from there. Obviously we can still work out who has accumulated what points since the start of the year but personally I cant be bothered with the effort! I'm guessing Rafa would be no1 so far, Murray probably 2nd, Federer 3rd, Roddick 4th and not too sure after that. I know at the end of the season it the race doesnt mean much because the rankings themselves show performance over the last 52 weeks. But rankings are also affected throughout the year by what points players are defending. So a decent performance at one event may not be rewarded because they didnt actually equal the same result from the previous year. As I explained, the Race just adds points up, so instead of trying to work out what players need to do qualify for Master Cup at the end of the year, you can literally just say that a player either needs to keep their level as it is or improve.

I know some people didnt quite understand the Race when it was used, or the rankings as they are now.... so I hope that attempt at an explanation helped those of you who are/were confused about the two systems.

I'd like to apologize if anyone has already brought this subject up recently. I havent been on here for a couple of months so dont know exactly what's been talked about

it's been brought up a bit, but there are a few websites that are doing the race on their own. google will find it for you.

luckyboy1300
04-08-2009, 04:39 PM
no i don't. i still remember the mayhem caused by that rankings.

gj011
04-08-2009, 05:34 PM
No. It was confusing ans useless. 52 week ranking points are only valid and relevant and should be used to see who is #1, #2, #3, ...

Ah the beginning of the year the period was too short and at the end it was same as real ranking anyway.

Good decision by ATP to remove it.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#pointvalue

As part of our changes to the ATP World Tour, we have looked to introduce one rankings system that is as easy to follow as possible. At times, having two, simultaneously running systems – the rankings and the Race - was confusing and difficult for fans to follow. The ATP Rankings represents the sport’s DNA. It demonstrates both a players standing in relation to his fellow pros as well as his position in the ‘race’ to become the year’s ATP World Tour Champion. For that reason we have removed the separate Race points system. It is still being used for doubles because players change partners during the season and because doubles teams can be at different ranking levels, it is impossible to use the ATP Rankings on their own to determine who should qualify for the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals. For that reason we have kept the Doubles Race for the 2009 season.

canuckfan
04-08-2009, 05:36 PM
No. It was confusing ans useless. 52 week ranking points are only valid and relevant and should be used to see who is #1, #2, #3, ...

Ah the beginning of the year the period was too short and at the end it was same as real ranking anyway.

Good decision by ATP to remove it.
Agreed. The race was nothing more than a statistically less relevant version of the 52 week ranking. Sample size matters. Without it stats are meaningless.

FEDERER>buttpicker.
04-08-2009, 08:54 PM
race is useless. no one reads it.

shadows
04-09-2009, 02:22 AM
http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/3/en/rankings/championsrace/default.asp

it's still there guys, just tucked away since it's no longer an official ranking.

I like the race as an indicator of form and to see how the season takes shape week by week.

THERAFA
04-09-2009, 02:48 AM
ATP's decision to exclude the race is one of the first good decisions they've ever made, I hated the race because people that didn't follow tennis became confused by it, and now I don't have to explain it to them because the regular rankings system is the only thing to look at. Very happy.

christos_liaskos
04-09-2009, 03:16 AM
OK, for those of you that dont seem to be missing it, let me put this arguement forwards....

We enter the last month or so of the season, your guy is at no.6 in the rankings, around 1500 points ahead of no.9 place. There are still 2 masters 1000 events to come but you can be pretty sure your guy has made it right? Wrong. The previous year your guy won both Masters events that are still yet to be played this year yet you didnt realise he was defending 2000 points. Basically his ranking of no.6 means nothing in terms of qualifying for Masters Cup because a large amount of those points holding his ranking where it is arent yet in the bag in terms of qualifying for this years Masters Cup. Only people who understand the way the 52 week rolling ranking system works will understand this, not your regular guy on the street. Also, even if you do understand this, you still have to take the time to look through your player's results over the last 52 weeks to see if he is defending points in the upcoming tournaments or if he has already got those points in the bag in terms of his ranking at the end of the year. So you're guy who is going into October sitting comfortably at no.6, has dropped to almost 20 by the time Paris has been played. Ofcourse his ranking will also be affected by what everyone else has to defend from their previous years performance. So as well as working out what your guy has to defend over the coming tournaments, you have to work out what around another 10 players have to defend. With the race it was clear. Your guy would be sitting at around no.15, you would say "if he wants to qualify for Masters Cup he has to get 'so far'".

The problem that even I had with the Race was the stupid way they awarded a different amount of points than the Rankings did. I never understood the reasoning behind that.

illkhiboy
04-09-2009, 06:05 AM
OK, for those of you that dont seem to be missing it, let me put this arguement forwards....

We enter the last month or so of the season, your guy is at no.6 in the rankings, around 1500 points ahead of no.9 place. There are still 2 masters 1000 events to come but you can be pretty sure your guy has made it right? Wrong. The previous year your guy won both Masters events that are still yet to be played this year yet you didnt realise he was defending 2000 points. Basically his ranking of no.6 means nothing in terms of qualifying for Masters Cup because a large amount of those points holding his ranking where it is arent yet in the bag in terms of qualifying for this years Masters Cup. Only people who understand the way the 52 week rolling ranking system works will understand this, not your regular guy on the street. Also, even if you do understand this, you still have to take the time to look through your player's results over the last 52 weeks to see if he is defending points in the upcoming tournaments or if he has already got those points in the bag in terms of his ranking at the end of the year. So you're guy who is going into October sitting comfortably at no.6, has dropped to almost 20 by the time Paris has been played. Ofcourse his ranking will also be affected by what everyone else has to defend from their previous years performance. So as well as working out what your guy has to defend over the coming tournaments, you have to work out what around another 10 players have to defend. With the race it was clear. Your guy would be sitting at around no.15, you would say "if he wants to qualify for Masters Cup he has to get 'so far'".

The problem that even I had with the Race was the stupid way they awarded a different amount of points than the Rankings did. I never understood the reasoning behind that.

Yeah it was confusing that the Race points were different, but they were essentially awarded the same way just that they were written 1/5th the value as regular ranking points. I guess the smaller number of points meant less syllables to be said out when constantly comparing points in the last few weeks before the Masters Cup. It's a bit easier to say Blake has 525 points right now than saying he has 2125 points. That's the only reason I can think of.

I agree with you that the race is a good indicator of what's been happening in the current year and I don't like the fact that it's hidden on the ATP site. What I did have a problem with before was the way the Race was featured on CNNSI.com and Yahoo as if it were the official ranking list. That was confusing.

christos_liaskos
07-06-2009, 12:43 PM
When I originally brought up this subject not many of you agreed with me that not having the race was a bad thing.

But now I miss it more than ever! One achievement Federer surely must have set himself after losing the year end no1 ranking was winning it back. Especially since it's only been done once, by Lendl.

Without the race though we cant see how each player is doing so far this year and what chance he has of achieving this feat. You would have thought with 2 grand slams and 1 final then he should be no1 in the race, but until not long ago he wasn't (I know this because someone had posted a link to show the race was actually still being used but it was just tucked away. However, this has now been deleted and the link doesn't provide any info anymore).

The atp clearly are still using the race though because they keep updating us on who has qualified for Masters Cup.

It just doesnt make sense not to publish it anymore! Ofcourse it is a fairly irrelevant ranking at the start of the year but I think the reasons I have given are good enough to show it is useful to have it. The positives outweigh the negatives

vive le beau jeu !
07-06-2009, 02:07 PM
When I originally brought up this subject not many of you agreed with me that not having the race was a bad thing.

But now I miss it more than ever! One achievement Federer surely must have set himself after losing the year end no1 ranking was winning it back. Especially since it's only been done once, by Lendl.

Without the race though we cant see how each player is doing so far this year and what chance he has of achieving this feat. You would have thought with 2 grand slams and 1 final then he should be no1 in the race, but until not long ago he wasn't (I know this because someone had posted a link to show the race was actually still being used but it was just tucked away. However, this has now been deleted and the link doesn't provide any info anymore).

The atp clearly are still using the race though because they keep updating us on who has qualified for Masters Cup.

It just doesnt make sense not to publish it anymore! Ofcourse it is a fairly irrelevant ranking at the start of the year but I think the reasons I have given are good enough to show it is useful to have it. The positives outweigh the negatives
i don't miss it... because i have it !
http://www.tennisnavigator.com/
don't cry anymore... ;)

1 FEDERER, Roger 7460 9 <- number of tournaments played
2 NADAL, Rafael 6805 10
3 MURRAY, Andy 4500 12
4 DJOKOVIC, Novak 4230 13
5 RODDICK, Andy 3650 10
6 DEL POTRO, Juan Martin 2600 11
7 VERDASCO, Fernando 2240 11
8 GONZALEZ, Fernando 1915 8
9 SODERLING, Robin 1860 12
10 ROBREDO, Tommy 1760 14
11 TSONGA, Jo-Wilfried 1590 13
12 STEPANEK, Radek 1460 12
13 HAAS, Tommy 1455 9
14 FERRER, David 1420 15
15 CILIC, Marin 1355 12
16 SIMON, Gilles 1335 13
17 MONFILS, Gael 1240 9
18 WAWRINKA, Stanislas 1225 10
19 DAVYDENKO, Nikolay 1065 9
20 HEWITT, Lleyton 1050 10

christos_liaskos
07-06-2009, 02:14 PM
Thank you ViVe!!!!!!!!!!!!

CountryHillbilly
08-21-2009, 06:37 AM
So, this is the ATP race thread.

Good job, guys.

CountryHillbilly
08-21-2009, 12:08 PM
Here is the latest update (Aug 20, 09)

1 SUI FEDERER, Roger 7730 11
2 ESP NADAL, Rafael 7075 12
3 GBR MURRAY, Andy 5590 14
4 SRB DJOKOVIC, Novak 4500 15
5 USA RODDICK, Andy 4320 13
6 ARG DEL POTRO, Juan Martin 3700 13
7 ESP VERDASCO, Fernando 2385 14
8 SWE SODERLING, Robin 2235 16
9 CHI GONZALEZ, Fernando 2195 11
10 RUS DAVYDENKO, Nikolay 2065 14
11 FRA TSONGA, Jo-Wilfried 1960 15
12 ESP ROBREDO, Tommy 1815 17
13 ESP FERRER, David 1690 19
13 GER HAAS, Tommy 1690 13
15 CZE STEPANEK, Radek 1560 14
16 FRA SIMON, Gilles 1515 16
17 CRO CILIC, Marin 1410 14
18 SUI WAWRINKA, Stanislas 1345 13
19 FRA MONFILS, Gael 1295 11
20 ESP FERRERO, Juan Carlos 1250 14