PDA

View Full Version : who ranks higher all time- Navratilova or Graf


thalivest
04-12-2009, 04:41 PM
I guess this is almost the same as the GOAT poll as nearly everyone voted for one of the other. Who rates higher all time- Steffi Graf or Martina Navratilova. This could also be a thread to discuss the hypothetical matchup if both were in their primes vs each other, and any evidence you think you might have seen one way or the other in their 1986-1989 confrontations.

Arafel
04-12-2009, 05:03 PM
Martina. She had to go through better players.

grafselesfan
04-12-2009, 05:08 PM
Graf, no contest.

Lionheart392
04-12-2009, 06:06 PM
Probably the toughest of all these polls, but I went with Graf. As someone in another thread said, these two are so close that you pretty much just have to choose who you're a bigger fan of. Martina is a true legend though and someone I have massive respect for. I personally though believe that Steffi was overall a slightly better player and had the most dominant presence of all the great women, not to mention some of the best stats.

navratilovafan
04-12-2009, 06:08 PM
I went with Martina by a hair although I obviously admit to being partial. Trying to be as objective as possible I gave it to Martina based on her combining amazing dominance in single with doubles and mixed doubles which Steffi rarely even played. I agree with lionheart though that both are so close that you almost always end up going with who you like more though.

gj011
04-12-2009, 06:28 PM
Navratilova of course. Graf's career achievements and number of GS titles are greatly inflated due to stabbing of Monika Seles, and that has to be accounted when something like this is considered.

egn
04-12-2009, 06:31 PM
Martina because she not only was one of the best singles players ever but one of the best doubles players ever. Too much attention is put into singles career, Martina was amazing at both.

pc1
04-12-2009, 06:35 PM
Tough call. Steffi won the Golden Slam, something even Navratilova never did. Martina won six straight majors and that's super impressive also. Martina won 167 tournaments, Graf 107. Graf won at a higher percentage during their careers and won more majors. Both were great for peak periods and for the career. Do I have to pick?

grafrules
04-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Even though I Graf is my all time favorite player I have to go with Martina. She has the edge on Steffi in more areas than Steffi has the edge on her, even though Steffi still does have the edge on her in some areas. Speculating how they would do in their primes vs each other is nearly impossible. There was some crossover between them, a bit more than Steffi and Evert, but still not enough to determine much based on, and there will always be debates to exactly when one or the others prime started or ended anyway. So you have to look at their overall careers.

DMan
04-12-2009, 11:42 PM
Navratilova of course. Graf's career achievements and number of GS titles are greatly inflated due to stabbing of Monika Seles, and that has to be accounted when something like this is considered.

Spoken like a true Selestial!!

grafrules
04-13-2009, 12:07 AM
I voted for Navratilova though it pained me to do it. I do think Graf is a top 3 or 4 player all time, maybe even #2 all time. However the top spot objectively speaking is Martina's.

crabgrass
04-13-2009, 12:58 AM
no.1 and 2 for me and probably most people, taking into account their overall record on all surfaces i'd have steffi as the best ever.

julesb
04-13-2009, 03:23 AM
Neither of them. They are only around the 10th and 11th best players of all time. Seles the real female GOAT made mincemeat out of both of them in the early 90s, thoroughly humiliating both.

BTURNER
04-13-2009, 04:12 AM
Do not reply to trolls. It relieves their boredom. Boredom is what this site will engender, with trolls and flamewars dominating. Just talk and debate around them.

hoodjem
04-13-2009, 04:44 AM
Neither of them. They are only around the 10th and 11th best players of all time. Seles the real female GOAT made mincemeat out of both of them in the early 90s, thoroughly humiliating both.

1. Seles
2. Wade
3. Capriati
4. Sabatini
5. Garrison
6. Fernandez
7. Carillo
8. Henin
9. Novotna
10. Graf
11. Navratilova


Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Seles AND the Red Chinese Army would not be the GOAT. Good one!

CEvertFan
04-13-2009, 02:59 PM
1. Seles
2. Wade
3. Capriati
4. Sabatini
5. Garrison
6. Fernandez
7. Carillo
8. Henin
9. Novotna
10. Graf
11. Navratilova


Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Seles AND the Red Chinese Army would not be the GOAT. Good one!


LMAO! That list is hysterical! Good one!


As for my vote, it goes with Navratilova, but it's close.

flying24
04-13-2009, 03:03 PM
Neither of them. They are only around the 10th and 11th best players of all time. Seles the real female GOAT made mincemeat out of both of them in the early 90s, thoroughly humiliating both.

So Seles fanatic if both Graf and Navratilova are that low let me guess what your list would look like.

1. Seles (well of course right, LOL!)
2. Venus (have to put up this high to hold grounds for Seles as the best ever when Venus was so thouroughly dominating even a past her prime Seles)
3. Serena (dominated a past her prime Seles to almost as lopsided of extremes as Venus, again ranks her to protect the Seles status no doubt)
4. Davenport (again since a past her prime Seles did so poorly vs her)
5. Hingis (I feel like I am repeating myself now, you know what I was going to say)
6. Connoly (since if you are going to be so crazy to rank Seles at #1 another what if case who was even more dominant than Seles would have to be atleast this high, no)
7. Pierce (again did pretty well vs post stabbing Seles so is bumped up to protect Seles status in the mind of a Seles fanatic like yourself)
8. Novotna (had better results than post stabbing Seles in 97, 98, and 99 and regularly beat her in 96 and 97, again to protect Seles status she gets bumped up here)
9. some other player who gave Monica more trouble than her fanatics would like even past her prime, maybe Henin
10. Navratilova or Graf
11. Graf or Navratilova

That about right?

julesb
04-13-2009, 03:14 PM
1. Seles
2. Wade
3. Capriati
4. Sabatini
5. Garrison
6. Fernandez
7. Carillo
8. Henin
9. Novotna
10. Graf
11. Navratilova


Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Seles AND the Red Chinese Army would not be the GOAT. Good one!

So Seles fanatic if both Graf and Navratilova are that low let me guess what your list would look like.

1. Seles (well of course right, LOL!)
2. Venus (have to put up this high to hold grounds for Seles as the best ever when Venus was so thouroughly dominating even a past her prime Seles)
3. Serena (dominated a past her prime Seles to almost as lopsided of extremes as Venus, again ranks her to protect the Seles status no doubt)
4. Davenport (again since a past her prime Seles did so poorly vs her)
5. Hingis (I feel like I am repeating myself now, you know what I was going to say)
6. Connoly (since if you are going to be so crazy to rank Seles at #1 another what if case who was even more dominant than Seles would have to be atleast this high, no)
7. Pierce (again did pretty well vs post stabbing Seles so is bumped up to protect Seles status in the mind of a Seles fanatic like yourself)
8. Novotna (had better results than post stabbing Seles in 97, 98, and 99 and regularly beat her in 96 and 97, again to protect Seles status she gets bumped up here)
9. some other player who gave Monica more trouble than her fanatics would like even past her prime, maybe Henin
10. Navratilova or Graf
11. Graf or Navratilova

That about right?

Ummm no.

1. Seles
2. Connoly
3. Serena
4. Venus
5. Henin
6. Davenport
7. Court
8. Evert
9. King
10. Navratilova
11. Graf

Arafel
04-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Ummm no.

1. Seles
2. Connoly
3. Serena
4. Venus
5. Henin
6. Davenport
7. Court
8. Evert
9. King
10. Navratilova
11. Graf

HILARIOUS!!!! Thanks for that. Henin, Venus, Serena and Davenport over Evert, Graf and Navratilova? :)

Oh my, tears of laughter.

julesb
04-13-2009, 04:05 PM
HILARIOUS!!!! Thanks for that. Henin, Venus, Serena and Davenport over Evert, Graf and Navratilova? :)

Oh my, tears of laughter.

Graf and Navratilova both beat the other when the winner was far out of her prime and the loser was in her prime which makes both weak especialy compared to Seles or Williams sisters.

A clearly pre prime Graf at only 16 and 17 was often beating, a couple times destroying a prime Navratilova at 29 and 30 in 1986 and 1987. On the other side a clearly past her prime Navratilova at 34 and 36 had two wins over a prime Graf now at ages 22 and 23.

hoodjem
04-13-2009, 04:28 PM
Everyone KNOWS that it was Navratilova's fault that Seles was stabbed.

She and Evert hired the guy. (He was a friend of Greg Norman's.)

If Seles had not been stabbed, everyone knows that she would won a true Grand Slam, 9 Wimbledons, 14 French Opens, 11 US Opens, and . . .

then she would have been elected President of the World Government.

(. . . and a partridge in a pear tree.)

NadalandFedererfan
04-13-2009, 09:14 PM
Graf is the female GOAT. Thus it is Graf.

380pistol
04-13-2009, 10:36 PM
Neither of them. They are only around the 10th and 11th best players of all time. Seles the real female GOAT made mincemeat out of both of them in the early 90s, thoroughly humiliating both.

Here we hav Jules Baboon living up to his name.

1. Seles
2. Wade
3. Capriati
4. Sabatini
5. Garrison
6. Fernandez
7. Carillo
8. Henin
9. Novotna
10. Graf
11. Navratilova


Ho ho ho, ha ha ha. Seles AND the Red Chinese Army would not be the GOAT. Good one!

So Seles fanatic if both Graf and Navratilova are that low let me guess what your list would look like.

1. Seles (well of course right, LOL!)
2. Venus (have to put up this high to hold grounds for Seles as the best ever when Venus was so thouroughly dominating even a past her prime Seles)
3. Serena (dominated a past her prime Seles to almost as lopsided of extremes as Venus, again ranks her to protect the Seles status no doubt)
4. Davenport (again since a past her prime Seles did so poorly vs her)
5. Hingis (I feel like I am repeating myself now, you know what I was going to say)
6. Connoly (since if you are going to be so crazy to rank Seles at #1 another what if case who was even more dominant than Seles would have to be atleast this high, no)
7. Pierce (again did pretty well vs post stabbing Seles so is bumped up to protect Seles status in the mind of a Seles fanatic like yourself)
8. Novotna (had better results than post stabbing Seles in 97, 98, and 99 and regularly beat her in 96 and 97, again to protect Seles status she gets bumped up here)
9. some other player who gave Monica more trouble than her fanatics would like even past her prime, maybe Henin
10. Navratilova or Graf
11. Graf or Navratilova

That about right?

And the responses are classics!!!!!

Ummm no.

1. Seles
2. Connoly
3. Serena
4. Venus
5. Henin
6. Davenport
7. Court
8. Evert
9. King
10. Navratilova
11. Graf

You're a baboon, enough said!!!!!!!!

flying24
04-13-2009, 11:43 PM
Graf and Navratilova are the two greatest female players in history bar none. 90% of tennis experts rank them 1-2 in one order or another. It is really only a question of which one is #1 and which one is #2. This poll is a more appropriate female GOAT poll than the one with 9 names. Those other players on the original female GOAT poll are all great great players in their own right, all time greats themselves. However the female GOAT discussion really starts and ends with Graf and Navratilova pretty much.

hoodjem
04-14-2009, 04:12 AM
Alright. But Lil' Mo does have a good shot at no. 3.?

(Along with Evert, and Smith Court.)

There's your top-5, and where's the grunter?


Sorry, no bananas.

dannykl
04-14-2009, 04:37 AM
I go for Steffi Graf. Although both of them are so great and deserve our respect.

Steffi can compete and perform excellently on any kind of surface, be it grass, hard court, indoor or clay.She is the only player won all four majors for at least four times each. Martina on the other hand cannot dominate the clay game as much compared with Steffi. Martina's game is super on fast court but is not that competitive on slower ones compared with Steffi.

Not to mention the Golden Slam Graf acheived.

Also Graf is the only player ever to have successfully defended all four majors title in her career. To make it even greater, she did it not once but twice. What an acheivement!

Giggs The Red Devil
04-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Navratilova. 46 years old Wimbledon champion, respect.

egn
04-14-2009, 02:55 PM
Graf and Navratilova are the two greatest female players in history bar none. 90% of tennis experts rank them 1-2 in one order or another. It is really only a question of which one is #1 and which one is #2. This poll is a more appropriate female GOAT poll than the one with 9 names. Those other players on the original female GOAT poll are all great great players in their own right, all time greats themselves. However the female GOAT discussion really starts and ends with Graf and Navratilova pretty much.

Yes hvae to second that..as much as Court and Evert are like they are usually left to battle for 3 and 4 for various reasons. Martina and Steffi at the two best it is all matter of opinion from there.

egn
04-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Ummm no.

1. Seles
2. Connoly
3. Serena
4. Venus
5. Henin
6. Davenport
7. Court
8. Evert
9. King
10. Navratilova
11. Graf

I really hope that you are attempting to be saracastic with us. Davenport, Henin, Venus and Serena all over Court Evert King Martina and Graf....

hoodjem
04-14-2009, 05:25 PM
He is, but he is unaware of it.

BTURNER
04-14-2009, 05:46 PM
Reposting in this thread as it is relevant

I just can't go with Navratilova at #1 due to her less than glorious red clay record. Of the seven mentioned. The only one with worse cumulative record at the three longest running red clay events is Connolly who was injured mid career.

Lenglen, Wills and Connolly were all undefeated at RG. Evert has 7 wins, 2 RU; Graf 6 wins, 3 RU; Court 5 wins, 1 RU; Navratilova 2 wins, 4 RU;

Italian Open results Evert has 5 wins, 2 Ru; Court 3 wins, 1 RU; Graf 1 win, 0 Ru, Navratilova 0 wins, 4 RU, Connolly 1 win, 1 RU; Neither Wills nor Lenglen played it as it was a closed event in their era.

German Open results Graf 9 wins, 2 RU; Court 3 wins, 0 RU, Evert 2 wins, 0 RU, Navratilova 0 wins, 2 RU. Neither Wills nor Lenglen played it as it was a closed event in their era. Connolly did not play.

totals: Graf 16 wins, 5 RU; Evert 14 wins, 4 Ru; Court 11 wins 2 RU, Lenglen 6 wins (undefeated) Wills 4 wins ( undefeated), Connolly 3 wins, 1 RU; Navratilova only 2 wins, 10 RU.

I realize Martina's numbers are still good, and she has some impressive victories and its mighty hard to get lots of traction in this category, with Evert and Graf hanging around, but they weren't EVERYWHERE and if surface is a big part of the equation, 2 titles out of these three championships not good enough for number one, UNLESS you are one to include doubles as criteria.

grafselesfan
04-14-2009, 08:20 PM
I agree. While she is still extremely good on clay, Navratilova is not great enough on clay to be the GOAT. There are too many other greats superior on their worst surface to Navratilova on clay.

Without the stabbing I strongly suspect even Seles would have proved to be greater on grass than Navratilova was overall on clay.

egn
04-14-2009, 08:49 PM
I agree. While she is still extremely good on clay, Navratilova is not great enough on clay to be the GOAT. There are too many other greats superior on their worst surface to Navratilova on clay.

Without the stabbing I strongly suspect even Seles would have proved to be greater on grass than Navratilova was overall on clay

Doubt that. Not to be mean. Seles got beatdown 6-2, 6-1..not sure how she got past Martina. Novotna and Sabatini were both better grass court players and I don't think she would have squeaked out more wimbledons than Martina and Graf even when Monica was at her best was getting beat down by Graf on grass. Sorry I would disagree there, grass was one place she would still excell at.

grafselesfan
04-14-2009, 08:56 PM
Doubt that. Not to be mean. Seles got beatdown 6-2, 6-1..not sure how she got past Martina. Novotna and Sabatini were both better grass court players and I don't think she would have squeaked out more wimbledons than Martina and Graf even when Monica was at her best was getting beat down by Graf on grass. Sorry I would disagree there, grass was one place she would still excell at.

Seles was only 18 at the time of that match. She had many years of improvement ahead. People think Seles was in her prime despite her very young age in the early 90s because she was dominating but her dominance is deceiving in that Graf was in a huge slump from Spring 1990-Winter 1993 and not reaching as many finals. Seles was already great but still had huge improvements left, especialy on a surface like grass where she wasnt that comfortable yet.

At only 18 though she was already the Worlds second greatest grass court player. That is why she was in the finals of Wimbledon that year and not someone else, regardless how bad the final went for her. As I said 1994, 1997, and 1998 were all big opportunities for her. Sabatini's prime was 1988-1992. She was not the same player at all in 1993, 1994, and beyond so Monica would not have had to worry about her at Wimbledon. Novotna could outplay Seles on grass, but probably would not be mentally strong enough to finish her in a semifinal or final of Wimbledon.

In 1994 clay court specialist and grass court neophyte Conchita Martinez won beating a 37 year old Navratilova. In 1997 hard court specialist Martina Hingis won, beating a badly injured and choking Novotna in 3 sets. In 1998 a choking Novotna won a close 2 setter with Nathalie freaking Tauziat in the final. Those years were all great opportunities for Seles to win Wimbledon without a doubt.

grafselesfan
04-14-2009, 11:44 PM
Graf and Navratilova both beat the other when the winner was far out of her prime and the loser was in her prime which makes both weak especialy compared to Seles or Williams sisters.

A clearly pre prime Graf at only 16 and 17 was often beating, a couple times destroying a prime Navratilova at 29 and 30 in 1986 and 1987. On the other side a clearly past her prime Navratilova at 34 and 36 had two wins over a prime Graf now at ages 22 and 23.

You are so stupid you make my head spin when I even try and conjure your comments.

Steffi-forever
09-19-2009, 09:45 PM
Graf!


N. 18 3 2 9 4
G. 22 4 6 7 5