Question about doubles partners' individual skills?

[AlphaCDjkr]

Hey everyone, I have a question regarding how doubles partners should work together. There's me, and my partner. I'm better at base, and my partner is better at net. However in the conditions where we're switched in positions due to alternating points, (where I'm at net, hes at base), we perform TERRIBLY.

I'm mostly a baseliner, and I work best at keeping the shots away from the opposing net player and keeping the ball in play. I usually don't make unforced errors unless I'm put in a difficult situation, which is rare since my partner...
Does his job as a net player. He is quick, great at predicting shots, and has pretty good court coverage. He usually finishes off anything that he can reach, or hits a difficult shot for the opponent to return which then either he or I finish off.

Unfortunately our performance drops drastically when we switch places. At net, I'm the one who gets passed A LOT or mishits the ball into the net/fence. I'm also the guy who unwisely tries to stretch for a far shot and clips it off the frame. My partner is better off than me though, for he's decent enough at base. The problem is his consistency is far worse than mine, and his control is wobbly. At times it would seem like hes playing blindfolded, and at other times hes hitting into the deep corners like a pro. (Exaggeration but you get it.) His serve is also worse than mine, for his is a regular medium/fast paced flat shot that becomes predictable after a while; and once the opponent realizes that I completely suck at net.. that shot is coming at my face. And I. Suck. At. Net.)

Obviously we've got a dilemma here. We've got a big match coming up in 6 days (upcoming Friday) and our performance that day determines whether or not we make CIF Team/Individuals, which is coming up in a month or so.

My question is, should we continue just working on improving what we're already good at and be stronger in our specific areas (work on formation switching and things like that), or should we dedicate time to practicing our weaknesses and be more well rounded? Remember, we've got two important deadlines; a 6-day short term deadline, and another month-long term one. Perhaps we should work on something in these 6 days, and something else over the next month? I hope you get what I'm trying to ask.

Thanks!

Oh yes, by the way this is high school level tennis, revolving around 3.5 play maybe. In case that changes anything.

[Tennis Dunce]

or should we dedicate time to practicing our weaknesses

yes

10 char

[NLBwell]

In 6 days, work on strategies and formations that will minimize your weaknesses (start off 2 back when he is recieving serve for example). Try these out in practice matches to see what works. Of course, practice on strengthening your weaknesses. It seems like your partner may be moving his head a lot when hitting groundstrokes - check to see if that is true - there are hints on how to fix that elsewhere on these boards. You should be able to become an adequate volleyer pretty quickly. Just work on NOT swinging and making sure you are looking at the ball and keeping your body reasonably quiet (I and many people have problems with these). Practice, practice, practice.

[Mada]

Why would you ever play doubles with 1 person at the net and 1 back?

[AlphaCDjkr]

Why would you ever play doubles with 1 person at the net and 1 back?

Uh.. because that's currently the best formation that works for us? Two at baseline doesn't work because it's hard to pull off winners and prolongs everything, and two up at net often results in me getting passed, or we get lobbed and I, being the faster one, has to run to the back which then puts us in 1 up 1 back..?

[LuckyR]

Hey everyone, I have a question regarding how doubles partners should work together. There's me, and my partner. I'm better at base, and my partner is better at net. However in the conditions where we're switched in positions due to alternating points, (where I'm at net, hes at base), we perform TERRIBLY.

I'm mostly a baseliner, and I work best at keeping the shots away from the opposing net player and keeping the ball in play. I usually don't make unforced errors unless I'm put in a difficult situation, which is rare since my partner...
Does his job as a net player. He is quick, great at predicting shots, and has pretty good court coverage. He usually finishes off anything that he can reach, or hits a difficult shot for the opponent to return which then either he or I finish off.

Unfortunately our performance drops drastically when we switch places. At net, I'm the one who gets passed A LOT or mishits the ball into the net/fence. I'm also the guy who unwisely tries to stretch for a far shot and clips it off the frame. My partner is better off than me though, for he's decent enough at base. The problem is his consistency is far worse than mine, and his control is wobbly. At times it would seem like hes playing blindfolded, and at other times hes hitting into the deep corners like a pro. (Exaggeration but you get it.) His serve is also worse than mine, for his is a regular medium/fast paced flat shot that becomes predictable after a while; and once the opponent realizes that I completely suck at net.. that shot is coming at my face. And I. Suck. At. Net.)

Obviously we've got a dilemma here. We've got a big match coming up in 6 days (upcoming Friday) and our performance that day determines whether or not we make CIF Team/Individuals, which is coming up in a month or so.

My question is, should we continue just working on improving what we're already good at and be stronger in our specific areas (work on formation switching and things like that), or should we dedicate time to practicing our weaknesses and be more well rounded? Remember, we've got two important deadlines; a 6-day short term deadline, and another month-long term one. Perhaps we should work on something in these 6 days, and something else over the next month? I hope you get what I'm trying to ask.

Thanks!

Oh yes, by the way this is high school level tennis, revolving around 3.5 play maybe. In case that changes anything.


Clearly the long range solution to your problem lies in making your weaknesses stronger, but in 6 days that's not going to work. For now, the weak net player should either play back to start (both back) or play very close to the net such that you sacrifice lob coverage for improved volleys.

The better net player should S&V when serving and chip and charge when returning.

[Mada]

Uh.. because that's currently the best formation that works for us? Two at baseline doesn't work because it's hard to pull off winners and prolongs everything, and two up at net often results in me getting passed, or we get lobbed and I, being the faster one, has to run to the back which then puts us in 1 up 1 back..?

Having 1 person at the net and 1 at the baseline is the worst formation you can use in doubles.

[harr]

Try replacing you up with both back and then see if you can hit a shot that'll allow him to approach.Having 1 person at the net and 1 at the baseline is the worst formation you can use in doubles.Even when one person can't volley and the other can't hit groundstrokes?

[socalballer]

Clearly the long range solution to your problem lies in making your weaknesses stronger, but in 6 days that's not going to work. For now, the weak net player should either play back to start (both back) or play very close to the net such that you sacrifice lob coverage for improved volleys.

The better net player should S&V when serving and chip and charge when returning.

this sounds like the best short term plan

[Fedace]

Work on Specific patterns and Stretegies. and work on Consistancy and playing great defense. if you want more details, i could provide it.

[AlphaCDjkr]

...

The better net player should S&V when serving and chip and charge when returning.

I've thought about this, but from the way I've been visualizing it in my head, doing this would take practice too. His serve is not very powerful so if he S&V's, his serve might get taken advantage of, and he might end up meeting the volley halfway into the court at the service line, which could prove to be difficult to return properly.

And for chip and charge, I didn't think about that really. I always visualize him hitting a topspin approach shot (which ALWAYS soars out because he does that when he goes for approaches) in order to get his way to the net. I think he can chip and charge, but what happens if the opposing net player is fast enough to get to it? My partner does the floating kind of slice, not the kind that penetrates and goes deep..

Anyways, thanks for this piece of advice, it's really helpful and it's been making me think about some other possibilities for improvising or positioning.

[Mada]

Even when one person can't volley and the other can't hit groundstrokes?

"Can't hit groundstrokes", then play both people at the net. It is not very hard to learn how to volley. If you cannot volley, why are you calling yourself a 3.5 player anyway?(Directed at OP)

[Steady Eddy]

So when you're returning serve, life is good, because you're back and he's at the net. The trouble is when they serve to your partner. Then he's back, you're at the net, and that's exactly what you don't want. He has to stay back for the serve, nothing you can do about that. But don't position yourself at the net, you're just a sitting duck there. After your partner returns serve and the point ensues, your partner should look for an opportunity to rush the net. He should almost always do this within the next TWO shots. Your team will probably have more trouble winning points when he receives than when you receive. But using this strategy you minimize the disadvantage. Good luck!

[AlphaCDjkr]

"Can't hit groundstrokes", then play both people at the net. It is not very hard to learn how to volley. If you cannot volley, why are you calling yourself a 3.5 player anyway?(Directed at OP)

I didn't call myself a 3.5 player. I said that the high school play level that I'm dealing with revolves around 3.5.

I've got a lot of weaknesses that I have to deal with, which is why I'm here asking for advice, but why does it REALLY sound like you're just trying to bite my head off?

So when you're returning serve, life is good, because you're back and he's at the net. The trouble is when they serve to your partner. Then he's back, you're at the net, and that's exactly what you don't want. He has to stay back for the serve, nothing you can do about that. But don't position yourself at the net, you're just a sitting duck there. After your partner returns serve and the point ensues, your partner should look for an opportunity to rush the net. He should almost always do this within the next TWO shots. Your team will probably have more trouble winning points when he receives than when you receive. But using this strategy you minimize the disadvantage. Good luck!

Very right about that. It looks like we're going to have to work out position swapping very soon... In tough matches, most of our points where the opponent serves go 0-0, 15-0, 15-15, 30-15, 30-30, 40-30, Deuce, Ad, Deuce, Ad, you get where I'm going with this. I mean there are many situations where he just picks it up and gets his game going where the whole alternating points thing, but on average in a tough match, it alternates like that. So it's constantly stressful for BOTH of us, because we kinda KNOW we're going to lose the next point unless one of us can break through with something. Oftentimes we can, but it's not for sure. Especially when we accidentally flub a point completely and we fall behind by more than two points, then we're REALLY worried.

[Mada]

I didn't call myself a 3.5 player. I said that the high school play level that I'm dealing with revolves around 3.5.

I've got a lot of weaknesses that I have to deal with, which is why I'm here asking for advice, but why does it REALLY sound like you're just trying to bite my head off?


I apologize for that, probably because I've just been in a bad mood today. I just don't understand what is so complicated about what to do in doubles. All I'm trying to say is if you want to succeed in doubles, having 1 person at the net and one at the baseline leaves too many openings and not enough places to attack.

One of you will need to work on your game so you can use a formation that will work. You are in probably the worst situation possible, in terms of match-ups. Have you considered talking to the coach with your partner about it? If that isn't an option, you have a few choices.

1. You can train your volleys a lot, everyday if possible, and in a few weeks results should show.

For your partner, groundstrokes are harder to get consistent at in a short period of time, so you will need to be the one adjusting probably.

2. You can always just try playing 1-up 1-back, ideally it isn't smart but it may be the best thing to do given your situation. Try playing around with a couple different formations and see which works best.

I don't know, it's hard to give accurate advice without seeing how both of you actually play.

[Steady Eddy]

Very right about that. It looks like we're going to have to work out position swapping very soon... In tough matches, most of our points where the opponent serves go 0-0, 15-0, 15-15, 30-15, 30-30, 40-30, Deuce, Ad, Deuce, Ad, you get where I'm going with this. I mean there are many situations where he just picks it up and gets his game going where the whole alternating points thing, but on average in a tough match, it alternates like that. So it's constantly stressful for BOTH of us, because we kinda KNOW we're going to lose the next point unless one of us can break through with something. Oftentimes we can, but it's not for sure. Especially when we accidentally flub a point completely and we fall behind by more than two points, then we're REALLY worried.And don't you hate it when you get a mini-break, by winning one of those points you expect to lose, so now all you have to do is win the one you're expected to win, but your daydreaming partner either: spaces out, does ridiculous shot selection, or tries some super-cute shot that fails? You want to say, "What did you do that for? We needed that point?", but you don't. Comments like that never help, but still...

[AlphaCDjkr]

I apologize for that, probably because I've just been in a bad mood today. I just don't understand what is so complicated about what to do in doubles. All I'm trying to say is if you want to succeed in doubles, having 1 person at the net and one at the baseline leaves too many openings and not enough places to attack.

One of you will need to work on your game so you can use a formation that will work. You are in probably the worst situation possible, in terms of match-ups. Have you considered talking to the coach with your partner about it? If that isn't an option, you have a few choices.

1. You can train your volleys a lot, everyday if possible, and in a few weeks results should show.

For your partner, groundstrokes are harder to get consistent at in a short period of time, so you will need to be the one adjusting probably.

2. You can always just try playing 1-up 1-back, ideally it isn't smart but it may be the best thing to do given your situation. Try playing around with a couple different formations and see which works best.

I don't know, it's hard to give accurate advice without seeing how both of you actually play.

That's all right, I was just afraid that you were actually getting ready to kill me haha :neutral:

I agree that for SURE either/both of us will have to work on our weaknesses, but I think that practicing our weaknesses will only show beneficial results within weeks. I didn't get to play tennis at all this weekend so realistically I have Monday-Thurs to practice until the important match, so I'm debating on whether we should take the effort to practice new court positioning. Actually, the majority of our practice is based on nonspecific drilling and conditioning, and 45 minutes for free matches; 45 minutes of experimentation a day. I really don't know if it's enough to make an impact by Friday.

However, I'm pretty sure I'll know what we need to work on tomorrow. Thanks for your criticism, even though I felt ready to cry (jk), but it was your best intentions, right? Right? :D

And don't you hate it when you get a mini-break, by winning one of those points you expect to lose, so now all you have to do is win the one you're expected to win, but your daydreaming partner either: spaces out, does ridiculous shot selection, or tries some super-cute shot that fails? You want to say, "What did you do that for? We needed that point?", but you don't. Comments like that never help, but still...

Haha that made me laugh. Both of us know that feeling and we completely abstain from criticizing each other like that, but when we lower our heads and walk past each other, glaring only at the ground, we know whats up. Or the feeble "Hey that's ok, we'll get the next one" when it's 100% completely OBVIOUS that hes FUMING inside and only holding it back in order to prevent me from getting nervous.

By the way, care to give me an example of what you call a "super-cute shot?" I'd love to learn it ;) I mean, when I thought about super-cute, for some reason I couldn't help but glance at your avatar. Is that your dog?

[harr]

"Can't hit groundstrokes", then play both people at the net. It is not very hard to learn how to volley.I agree, but if there was only a short period in which to learn it might be better to hope that the opposition aren't good enough to exploit the formation. The longer term goal should definitely be to learn to volley.

[raiden031]

My philosophy is to always play in a way that is better for you in the long term. The only exception might be if you have an important match a week away, in which case you play with the best winning strategy that you got. But in those other less important matches you should always work to develop all your shots and improve your positioning to follow sound doubles strategy.

The more you avoid exposing your weaknesses, the longer you will go without any significant improvement because those weaknesses will always inhibit you. Its simple, the best doubles players are going to be those that can adapt to any situation and play from any position on the court. If you don't learn to play like this then you will always be mediocre.

As far as practice time, work on your weaknesses and becoming a more rounded player.

[TennisND]

One of the question I was also asked in each game is "which side you prefer". Should I go ahead and claim my better side (which 70% also my partner's preferred side) or leave it to her/him to choose? I am not very consistent and I am worried that choosing her/his side will make our results worse. What should I do?

[Cindysphinx]

So when you're returning serve, life is good, because you're back and he's at the net. The trouble is when they serve to your partner. Then he's back, you're at the net, and that's exactly what you don't want. He has to stay back for the serve, nothing you can do about that. But don't position yourself at the net, you're just a sitting duck there. After your partner returns serve and the point ensues, your partner should look for an opportunity to rush the net. He should almost always do this within the next TWO shots. Your team will probably have more trouble winning points when he receives than when you receive. But using this strategy you minimize the disadvantage. Good luck!

Perfect. I have been known to do this in mixed. In mixed, there is no way I can sustain a winning crosscourt rally with the other guy, and trying to do so means my partner isn't getting to use his strengths.

What does work is we start two-back. I serve or receive. I then try really hard to hit a good-quality next groundstroke. If it is a good one or if my partner intercepts it, I run to the net like my hair is on fire. You'd be surprised at how fast you can get up there if you really try! Then we are in our preferred formation (that is, any formation where I am not at the baseline).

There is no law that says you must start every point with someone at net.

[JesseT]

One of the question I was also asked in each game is "which side you prefer". Should I go ahead and claim my better side (which 70% also my partner's preferred side) or leave it to her/him to choose? I am not very consistent and I am worried that choosing her/his side will make our results worse. What should I do?

OP Doubles and many coaches give this rule of thumb:

- stronger server return -> ad side
- stronger overhead -> ad side
- stronger (righty) backhand -> ad side
- when neither is obvious, stronger player -> ad side

The logic goes: since most points are won at "ad", then the better returner/player should get take the honors.

BTW, I've never seen a good explanation of righty/lefty positioning. I would think most leftys would be better at deuce, but most combinations I play see him/her at ad.

[LuckyR]

I've thought about this, but from the way I've been visualizing it in my head, doing this would take practice too. His serve is not very powerful so if he S&V's, his serve might get taken advantage of, and he might end up meeting the volley halfway into the court at the service line, which could prove to be difficult to return properly.

And for chip and charge, I didn't think about that really. I always visualize him hitting a topspin approach shot (which ALWAYS soars out because he does that when he goes for approaches) in order to get his way to the net. I think he can chip and charge, but what happens if the opposing net player is fast enough to get to it? My partner does the floating kind of slice, not the kind that penetrates and goes deep..

Anyways, thanks for this piece of advice, it's really helpful and it's been making me think about some other possibilities for improvising or positioning.


But I think you are missing the bigger picture. The server will be S&Ving with his partner at the baseline. The correct return for the returner is not to hit to the server's toes, but DTL to the serer's partner who is still at the baseline.

Same with the C&C on returns, the server's best shot (if he is S&Ving) would be to pop up his return to the returner's partner at the baseline. A pop up volley or half volley should be fodder for the returner, if he can get ahold of it.

[AlphaCDjkr]

But I think you are missing the bigger picture. The server will be S&Ving with his partner at the baseline. The correct return for the returner is not to hit to the server's toes, but DTL to the serer's partner who is still at the baseline.

Same with the C&C on returns, the server's best shot (if he is S&Ving) would be to pop up his return to the returner's partner at the baseline. A pop up volley or half volley should be fodder for the returner, if he can get ahold of it.

You prove a big point there. In my imagination I always picture the worst case scenario (my partner having to hit a crap volley), without realizing that it probably won't happen often. I should probably take into consideration everything that could go right too...

By the way thanks for clarifying the obvious (heh..) We have a match tomorrow, really minor, 1% chance we'll lose, I'll talk to my partner and try experimentation.
--
wait wait wait quick question.

Assuming that.. I'm on deuce side, partner is on ad side, we are both at base. Opponents are one at net directly in front, and one at base crosscourt.

What is the best kind of shot I can do to let my partner get up to net? Deep lob? Hard crosscourt? Slice? blah? Slow? Fast? Topspin? etcetecetc?!?!

Thanks :D

[LuckyR]

wait wait wait quick question.

Assuming that.. I'm on deuce side, partner is on ad side, we are both at base. Opponents are one at net directly in front, and one at base crosscourt.

What is the best kind of shot I can do to let my partner get up to net? Deep lob? Hard crosscourt? Slice? blah? Slow? Fast? Topspin? etcetecetc?!?!

Thanks :D


The answer will differ depending on a few variables. Back in the day a high spinning topspin roller deep to the baseline player would be the perfect shot. However, in the modern game that may end up in your partner's alley for a winner. Nowadays a short chip to the baseline player landing in front of the service line will be slow enough to get your partner inside first volley position and will lead at worst to a slice back to you at the baseline.

BTW do you play for West Covina High?

[AlphaCDjkr]

The answer will differ depending on a few variables. Back in the day a high spinning topspin roller deep to the baseline player would be the perfect shot. However, in the modern game that may end up in your partner's alley for a winner. Nowadays a short chip to the baseline player landing in front of the service line will be slow enough to get your partner inside first volley position and will lead at worst to a slice back to you at the baseline.

BTW do you play for West Covina High?

No, I go to Covina High. It's odd because I live in West Covina, but my location has students attend Covina High. We beat West Covina High :D But I forgot the score, so blah. West Covina High is really ghetto looking from the outside, haha.

Ah yes, my partner and I attempted to work on getting our communication and shots to work for us to let him rush the net. It should have been easy, we had a match today against a school we normally beat 18-0 [17-1 today, we pulled up a JV player to sub in for one of our Varsity players who had to leave early), he won 1-1 out of his matches]. Wait, beat? Slaughter. My partner and I had to play the #3 opponents first, we attempted everything.. it was terrible haha. I had no problem hitting proper shots, however I tended to hit too fast, and by the time my partner realized that he should have started getting to net half a second ago, the ball was already coming back. When it was up to him trying to set up his next shot to get to net, he couldn't even get the point going.. haha. He hit out to the fence a lot because he tried to get a head start by rushing the ball as it was coming (and he doesn't have much control/spin; thus, he blasted that thing out of there) We gave up within two games, hehe.

VS
#3: 6-1 (1 because of failed attempting of said plan above)
#2: 6-0
#1: 6-0

Judging by how impossible it us for us to properly even get the positioning going, I'm just going to work on my volleys. They were pretty good today, but who knows how I"ll play on Friday.. *shivers*

[LuckyR]

No, I go to Covina High. It's odd because I live in West Covina, but my location has students attend Covina High. We beat West Covina High :D But I forgot the score, so blah. West Covina High is really ghetto looking from the outside, haha.

Ah yes, my partner and I attempted to work on getting our communication and shots to work for us to let him rush the net. It should have been easy, we had a match today against a school we normally beat 18-0 [17-1 today, we pulled up a JV player to sub in for one of our Varsity players who had to leave early), he won 1-1 out of his matches]. Wait, beat? Slaughter. My partner and I had to play the #3 opponents first, we attempted everything.. it was terrible haha. I had no problem hitting proper shots, however I tended to hit too fast, and by the time my partner realized that he should have started getting to net half a second ago, the ball was already coming back. When it was up to him trying to set up his next shot to get to net, he couldn't even get the point going.. haha. He hit out to the fence a lot because he tried to get a head start by rushing the ball as it was coming (and he doesn't have much control/spin; thus, he blasted that thing out of there) We gave up within two games, hehe.

VS
#3: 6-1 (1 because of failed attempting of said plan above)
#2: 6-0
#1: 6-0

Judging by how impossible it us for us to properly even get the positioning going, I'm just going to work on my volleys. They were pretty good today, but who knows how I"ll play on Friday.. *shivers*


It has been many decades since we played West Covina and all I remember is that the courts were basically part of the parking lot and looked and played pretty rough.