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Cindysphinx
04-23-2009, 11:58 AM
Anyone ever have a doubles partnership implode and decide to seek a divorce?

I had to get a divorce this winter. It was really quite a shame. I captain a 6.5 combo team. Last year, we went to the state championships, and I had two partners I played with. Both moved up this year to 3.5, so I needed to find new 3.0 partners.

I looked at the roster, and the top 3.0s already had established partnerships, so I couldn't steal one of them. I decided this one lady would be the best match. She works on her game, hits the ball hard, plays mixed. We practiced a few times, and then it was time to make our debut against one of the top teams.

We are playing a night match on clay, and it is tight. Opponents are break point down in the second set. The point starts, and they hit a ball to me at the baseline. I see it is going to be a deep one. I am hoping it will go long, but I set up to hit just in case. Darn. It lands in, I'd say an inch in front of the baseline. I play my groundstroke, which lands in. Just as I am hitting, I hear "OUT!!!" My partner is near the net, and she has emphatically called the ball out.

It wasn't out. It was in. I mean, I was right there. She says to me, "That was out." "No it wasn't," I say, "it was in front of the baseline." "Cindy, it was totally out." "I'm closer, so it's my call to make." "It was *way* out!!" Meanwhile, our opponents are standing there wondering what all the wild gesturing might mean.

Then my partner says, "Check the mark." Mark? What mark? These courts look like gophers live underneath them, and they probably haven't been swept all day. She comes over and points to an area that is about 4 inches behind the baseline. I say, "Well, I saw it in, so we can't agree."

I leave her fuming and go talk to the opponents. I tell them that my partner and I disagree on the call so we will have to play a let. They say, "No, if you disagree on a call, then it is our point." I explain the rule that if players correct their own out call, you play a let if the return landed in the proper court, which it did. One of the opponents said that was not fair because she stopped playing when my partner called the ball out. Rather than try to wrap my mind around that argument, I told them that I had the Code with me and we could look it up but that I was sure I was correct. They decided to believe me, and we played a let.

Meanwhile, my partner is shooting daggers at me. We went on to lose the match in a third set tiebreak. She had to be annoyed because that one point might have been the break that would have turned it around. I was irritated that she is turned around making baseline calls when she should be watching the opposing net player.

Well, OK, fine. We partner up again for the next important match. Again, we start having all manner of problems. She again told me I had called a ball in that was way out. She didn't like when I said "YOU!" during points because it distracts her, nor did she appreciate "Bounce." I, on the other hand, was really hoping to hear things like "Switch" and "Bounce!" and wasn't. Balls were going unplayed down the middle with both of us laying off. Our positioning was miserable. Again, we lost and the match wasn't even competitive. Again, I had that drained feeling one has when they have just had a major fight with their spouse.

Rather than try to work through all of these differences, I decided to give her a different partner and start using a different lady for my partner. My old partner now wins all of her matches convincingly -- no surprise, because she is certainly not a bad player -- and I haven't lost with my new partner either.

Sometimes divorce really is best for everyone involved.

simi
04-23-2009, 12:03 PM
Sorry for your misfortunes. Tennis should really be fun, and it isn't when you have to endure situations like you did. Glad you're doing well with your new partner. Sometimes, two people just aren't compatible.

Venetian
04-23-2009, 12:24 PM
There's so much drama in women's tennis. =)

JavierLW
04-23-2009, 12:26 PM
Anyone ever have a doubles partnership implode and decide to seek a divorce?

I had to get a divorce this winter. It was really quite a shame. I captain a 6.5 combo team. Last year, we went to the state championships, and I had two partners I played with. Both moved up this year to 3.5, so I needed to find new 3.0 partners.

I looked at the roster, and the top 3.0s already had established partnerships, so I couldn't steal one of them. I decided this one lady would be the best match. She works on her game, hits the ball hard, plays mixed. We practiced a few times, and then it was time to make our debut against one of the top teams.

We are playing a night match on clay, and it is tight. Opponents are break point down in the second set. The point starts, and they hit a ball to me at the baseline. I see it is going to be a deep one. I am hoping it will go long, but I set up to hit just in case. Darn. It lands in, I'd say an inch in front of the baseline. I play my groundstroke, which lands in. Just as I am hitting, I hear "OUT!!!" My partner is near the net, and she has emphatically called the ball out.

It wasn't out. It was in. I mean, I was right there. She says to me, "That was out." "No it wasn't," I say, "it was in front of the baseline." "Cindy, it was totally out." "I'm closer, so it's my call to make." "It was *way* out!!" Meanwhile, our opponents are standing there wondering what all the wild gesturing might mean.

Then my partner says, "Check the mark." Mark? What mark? These courts look like gophers live underneath them, and they probably haven't been swept all day. She comes over and points to an area that is about 4 inches behind the baseline. I say, "Well, I saw it in, so we can't agree."

I leave her fuming and go talk to the opponents. I tell them that my partner and I disagree on the call so we will have to play a let. They say, "No, if you disagree on a call, then it is our point." I explain the rule that if players correct their own out call, you play a let if the return landed in the proper court, which it did. One of the opponents said that was not fair because she stopped playing when my partner called the ball out. Rather than try to wrap my mind around that argument, I told them that I had the Code with me and we could look it up but that I was sure I was correct. They decided to believe me, and we played a let.

Meanwhile, my partner is shooting daggers at me. We went on to lose the match in a third set tiebreak. She had to be annoyed because that one point might have been the break that would have turned it around. I was irritated that she is turned around making baseline calls when she should be watching the opposing net player.

Well, OK, fine. We partner up again for the next important match. Again, we start having all manner of problems. She again told me I had called a ball in that was way out. She didn't like when I said "YOU!" during points because it distracts her, nor did she appreciate "Bounce." I, on the other hand, was really hoping to hear things like "Switch" and "Bounce!" and wasn't. Balls were going unplayed down the middle with both of us laying off. Our positioning was miserable. Again, we lost and the match wasn't even competitive. Again, I had that drained feeling one has when they have just had a major fight with their spouse.

Rather than try to work through all of these differences, I decided to give her a different partner and start using a different lady for my partner. My old partner now wins all of her matches convincingly -- no surprise, because she is certainly not a bad player -- and I haven't lost with my new partner either.

Sometimes divorce really is best for everyone involved.

That happens all the time with me and other players.

"working thru all of the differences" doesnt really work to well with us adults anyway. It's just usually within people's nature to act a certain way and most people wont change so it's not worth getting on their case.

I dont like when people yell out "YOURS!!!!" either, but that's just me.

Sometimes people like more communication and they need to find a partner that fits that, and sometimes people dont want every single "seemingly" routine situation spelled out for them because it's distracting.

I would mostly be annoyed with her because she's apparently too concerned about things that really have nothing to do with just focusing on playing good tennis. That's the biggest reason people cant manage themselves thru winning a match in these leagues (it's not ability).

I have a partner like that who I play with in a Indoor league that I am in. If I correct his line calls, he gets all sorts of upset at me. (which usually leads to him sending a few returns into the net)

It gets annoying because it's almost gives us the sense that we cant win. If we were super confident that we could win the match (and we still have a winning record together), then there is no need to even be concerned about what happens on any given point.

Once I (or you) say it's in, by rule it's an in ball, then we follow the rules and move on, no need to argue about it....

JavierLW
04-23-2009, 12:29 PM
There's so much drama in women's tennis. =)

I dont know some men are not much better. Haven't you ever seen a grown man cry about some line call before as if you just stole his lunch money? Ive seen it plenty and it's not pretty.

I know a guy that I end up playing in the league here and there where I just cringe anytime he hits a ball anywhere near a line, because I know if I have to call it out he's going to make a big fuss over it. (which is really rude)

OrangePower
04-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Sure. And there doesn't have to be a guilty party involved - sometimes it's just about playing styles - two people who are each decent players may find that they just don't make for a good team. If you're not having the expected success as a team and don't really see potential for improvement, it's just time to try something (someone) else.

larry10s
04-24-2009, 03:34 AM
cindy,imho you are a masochist who loves a soap opera drama filled life. you are smarter than your skills in tennis (but working to have your skills catch up) and are frustrated by players who dont have your skills or knowledge. some leopards dont change their spots.. work on your game accept what you get for a partner ( in this case you had bad chemistry so you needed to find another partner ) dont you think calling this a divorce after 3-4 dates is alittle melodramatic? good luck with your tennis. just my humble opinion

jrod
04-24-2009, 04:02 AM
I'm sure that there is something fundamentally different when it comes to womens doubles vs. mens doubles. My neighbor plays on a a womens doubles team and has gone through the entire team roster looking for a partner she can "live" with. She remains totally dissatisfied to this day. I know of several women who refuse to play with certain other women on the team, for a variety of reasons, some even having to do with their tennis skills. I know of several other women who quit playing doubles altogether because of the associated social baggage. I know pro's who coach womens doubles teams who constantly struggle to maintain a semblance of peace among the players.

Over the past several years, I've played doubles with at least 20 different partners (men, NTRP levels ranging from 3.5 to 5.0), all with completely different styles, strengths, weaknesses, ages, lefties, righties, etc. Not once have I had an issue that wasn't easily settled by a simple discussion with my partner. I agree that it's challenging to adapt ones game and play as a coherent unit. Sure, there are some player's whose style is more complementary of my style, but the fact is I actually enjoy the challenge of having to adapt my game. For the record, my win-loss ratio over the last couple of years is nearly 2 to 1.

I honestly don't get it.

larry10s
04-24-2009, 04:56 AM
mena are from mars women are from venus

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 05:07 AM
I'm sure that there is something fundamentally different when it comes to womens doubles vs. mens doubles. My neighbor plays on a a womens doubles team and has gone through the entire team roster looking for a partner she can "live" with. She remains totally dissatisfied to this day. I know of several women who refuse to play with certain other women on the team, for a variety of reasons, some even having to do with their tennis skills. I know of several other women who quit playing doubles altogether because of the associated social baggage. I know pro's who coach womens doubles teams who constantly struggle to maintain a semblance of peace among the players.

Over the past several years, I've played doubles with at least 20 different partners (men, NTRP levels ranging from 3.5 to 5.0), all with completely different styles, strengths, weaknesses, ages, lefties, righties, etc. Not once have I had an issue that wasn't easily settled by a simple discussion with my partner. I agree that it's challenging to adapt ones game and play as a coherent unit. Sure, there are some player's whose style is more complementary of my style, but the fact is I actually enjoy the challenge of having to adapt my game. For the record, my win-loss ratio over the last couple of years is nearly 2 to 1.

I honestly don't get it.

You know, many captains ask players to tell them at the beginning of the season who they wish to partner with and who they wish to avoid. I tend not to do this for several reasons, and instead I approach individuals about these preferences when I think there is a good reason. Usually the reason is either that they are a franchise player I need to keep happy, or they are a picky player, or they are new and I don't yet know what to do with them.

The answers I get are interesting. People have all sorts of reasons why they won't partner with someone. I have heard:

1. "She groans when I make a mistake."

2. "I set up points and she hits the ball into the net or out."

3. "She is slow."

4. "Opponents hit every ball to her; what am I supposed to do?"

5. "She sees in balls as out. It's embarrassing. I'm going to get a reputation for cheating."

6. "She's mentally weak."

7. "She coaches me the whole match."

8. "Every time we lose a point, she dissects it and concludes that I did something wrong."

I can't imagine what kind of earful I'd get if I actually asked all 18 women to tell me who they don't want to play with!

As for me, I counted up the number of doubles partners I have had since the day in 2005 that I played my first USTA match. This would include Ladies 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0, plus mixed 7.0 and combo 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5. Are you ready?

I have had *53* different male and female partners.

Good lord. No wonder I can't win!

Cindy -- who has only expressly refused to partner with one person during her entire time with USTA

jrod
04-24-2009, 05:34 AM
^^^^ Cindy, I have a theory: Men focus on finding a solution. Women prefer to discuss the situation ad nauseum.

Which strategy do you think is more effective (i.e. in doubles)?

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 06:19 AM
Well, as we all know, men are far superior to women in every way, so perhaps you are onto something there, Jrod.

jrod
04-24-2009, 06:26 AM
Well, as we all know, men are far superior to women in every way, so perhaps you are onto something there, Jrod.

Cindy - By no means was I insinuating this. Sorry if I offended you. My point was, the style adopted by men may be better adapted to the game of doubles. However, the communicative style adopted by women is far superior to that of men in many other domains.

You're tendancy to jump to this conclusion is highly revealing however....

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 06:31 AM
:shrug:

I dunno. I don't really have any experience with how men pick their doubles partners and whether they secretly write to their captains and express preferences along the lines I suggested.

Xisbum
04-24-2009, 06:50 AM
Well, as we all know, men are far superior to women in every way, so perhaps you are onto something there, Jrod.

We are? :confused: I didn't know that. Man, have I wasted a lot of time. :shock:

cak
04-24-2009, 06:54 AM
I believe I have used #5 up there. I hate having the choice of constantly overruling my partner on line calls or having the other team think I'm a cheater. There is a lady in our club I'm not fond of playing social tennis with, but I won't step on a USTA court with because of her line calls.

The one other type of partner I won't play USTA with is one I can't protect. This seems to only come up in combo. Occasionally one of the older ladies who knows they don't have the reaction time to play adult, or even senior 3.0 level anymore will sign up for 7.5 combo thinking their stronger partner will carry them. I'm a fairly decent 3.5, but still a 3.5, and occasionally even I will make a shot that my partner needs to duck and cover for, and these women can't duck and cover. Nothing is sadder than a 65+ year old lady with a bloody nose and soon to be black eye lying on your court. I've seen it, it is not pretty.

In retrospect, Cindy's breakup worked out for the whole team. Now she has two happy, winning doubles teams. Can't beat that outcome. And yeah, sometimes two good players just don't make a good doubles team together.

jrod
04-24-2009, 07:00 AM
:shrug:

I dunno. I don't really have any experience with how men pick their doubles partners and whether they secretly write to their captains and express preferences along the lines I suggested.


I do. It's interesting really. At the beginning of a season or when there is not a lot of history to help guide pairing decisions, I've seen captains use randomized pairings, at least in the practices. Often, what falls out of this is a few strong pairs which helps establish a core. The remainder of folks usually evolve into preferred pairings, but generally what happens is they mix it up because not everyone is always available. So there is always some additional shuffling inherent to the process.

The successful pairings are often composed of players with complementary playing styles. Occasionally the coaches will suggest some things, but experimentation is generally required. I have never really seen any obvious dissent or refusal on the part of the players to team up, although I'd be surprised if there were not some back room negotiating. It just doesn't seem nearly as melodramatic as it does with womens dubs.

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 08:14 AM
Oh, wait. I forgot one I've heard:

9. "She's constantly asking me to do things I can't do, like hit a drop shot because opponent is heavy or hit my return to someone's backhand out wide. I'm not a short order cook."

OrangePower
04-24-2009, 12:55 PM
I have had *53* different male and female partners.

Good lord. No wonder I can't win!

Now that would make for an interesting thread - how many partners have you had in recent years. My money is on Cindy! 53 is *a lot*.

I'm in my third year of USTA and have so far played with just 4 different partners. (Adult and Combo - I don't play mixed.)

Steady Eddy
04-24-2009, 01:14 PM
One doesn't call a shot out unless one is certain, right? If one is uncertain, you play it. So that means if one member on the team says "out" it's out. (BTW, this is not The Code, it's just my view). I've had partners call shots "out" that I thought might be in. I don't contradict them, I feel that they must have been certain or why wouldn't have said it.

Besides, it causes a big mess to disagree with your partner. One time I saw a lob go deep, called out, then my partner, picked up the ball, and as he returns it, says, "Guys, the ball was good." So what do I look like? It looks like he knows it's good, and is speaking up because his conscience cannot allow him to accept calls from a cheating partner. I had the better view, being at the service line, while he was behind the baseline. I could see space between where the ball landed and the line, this is harder to see from where he is. Have you ever had someone humiliate you like this? If there's someone you really don't like, do it to them when they're your partner. After an out call, come to the net shaking your head, "no, no, no, can't accept that, the ball was good, your point". Now you're Ms. Honesty and they're a cheater. If it's ever happened to you, then you'd understand why your partner got upset. It's not about winning, it's about your reputation being maligned. Unless there are some very unusual circumstances, I'd never contradict my partner like that. Holy insensitivity Batman!

maverick66
04-24-2009, 01:25 PM
woman's tennis the worst. my mom has played in usta teams for a long time and some of the stories are just unreal. i can also remember an old coach of mine telling me that husbands used to ask him to make sure they win because there weeks are ruined when there spouses lose. womens usta is a brutal animal.

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 01:28 PM
Actually, there are two reasons why a player calls a shot out. She is certain, or she is wrong.

I understand what you're saying, SteadyEddy.

But if a ball bounces at my feet that I know to be in and my partner calls it out from many feet away, it would be cheating to take the point we didn't earn.

Fortunately, all we have to do is follow the Code. Which says I handled things properly. She didn't see that ball out. She wished it out because it was a big point.

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 01:31 PM
Now that would make for an interesting thread - how many partners have you had in recent years. My money is on Cindy! 53 is *a lot*.

I'm in my third year of USTA and have so far played with just 4 different partners. (Adult and Combo - I don't play mixed.)

Wow, just 4 partners? I think I had 4 partners my first month of playing USTA.


This season, I have put myself in the line-up for the first three matches. I will have three different partners (and yet another new partner -- let's call her Number 54) for those three matches. On account of availability issues.

sureshs
04-24-2009, 01:46 PM
There's so much drama in women's tennis. =)

And in mixed

OrangePower
04-24-2009, 02:12 PM
Actually, there are two reasons why a player calls a shot out. She is certain, or she is wrong.

I understand what you're saying, SteadyEddy.

But if a ball bounces at my feet that I know to be in and my partner calls it out from many feet away, it would be cheating to take the point we didn't earn.

Fortunately, all we have to do is follow the Code. Which says I handled things properly. She didn't see that ball out. She wished it out because it was a big point.

Of course I don't like it when I make an out call and my partner overrules it in. Makes me feel self-concious about having made the out call, even thought I call it out only if I'm sure it was out.

But we all make mistakes, even with the best of intentions. Heck, even professional line-people make mistakes, and they are trained, positioned perfectly, and are not moving while making the call.

So if my partner sees it in, I'd rather be overruled and give my opponents the benefit of the doubt, even if I'm sure the ball was out.

Helps to have a long-time partner so that you can just be honest with each other and call it as you see it without having to worry about hurting egos, etc.

Steady Eddy
04-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Actually, there are two reasons why a player calls a shot out. She is certain, or she is wrong.

I understand what you're saying, SteadyEddy.

But if a ball bounces at my feet that I know to be in and my partner calls it out from many feet away, it would be cheating to take the point we didn't earn.

Fortunately, all we have to do is follow the Code. Which says I handled things properly. She didn't see that ball out. She wished it out because it was a big point.Since you had the better view, she should have remained quiet. I'll be 95% certain a shot is out, but if I'm 30 feet away, and my partner has a clear view, I won't say anything. I'm not saying it's in, it's just that I'm not certain enough to call it out. (Which is why that guy bothered me, I don't call out when that's what I think, only when it's what I know). When I play a set, I've heard from spectators that I give lots of shots to my opponents. That's ok, better to lose than to have a set feel weird.

True, you were following The Code. But still, this is one case where you do so at your own risk. For a league or tournament match, it's more important that the calls be accurate. For a friendly match, I wouldn't over-rule my partner.

kylebarendrick
04-24-2009, 03:18 PM
If my partner has the better angle on the ball, I'll generally go with their call. If I had the better angle and I am positive it landed in, then I will overrule their call.

Yes, I have had partners overrule my calls. I don't take it as an insult. I'd like to think that because I take the overrule graciously and concede the point to my opponents, it actually makes me look good.

I spent some time speaking to an official at a tournament. He was convinced that 90% of bad calls are made by people who honestly believe they are making the correct call. With that in mind, just because you believe your call was correct doesn't mean it was.

gocard02
04-24-2009, 04:28 PM
I always thought, if one person on my team sees the ball out, it's out. If I think it's clearly in, I'll talk to him, and if he concedes it in, then we'll correct ourselves. Otherwise, we stand with the ball being out.

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 04:49 PM
Since you had the better view, she should have remained quiet. I'll be 95% certain a shot is out, but if I'm 30 feet away, and my partner has a clear view, I won't say anything. I'm not saying it's in, it's just that I'm not certain enough to call it out. (Which is why that guy bothered me, I don't call out when that's what I think, only when it's what I know). When I play a set, I've heard from spectators that I give lots of shots to my opponents. That's ok, better to lose than to have a set feel weird.

True, you were following The Code. But still, this is one case where you do so at your own risk. For a league or tournament match, it's more important that the calls be accurate. For a friendly match, I wouldn't over-rule my partner.

Exactly. I mean, I was *right there.*

Just the other night, my partner was in the deuce court rallying crosscourt from the baseline on a clay court. A ball went wide. I glanced over and thought it might be in, but I was standing in the center of the service box. She was closer, standing right on the line. I couldn't possibly know whether there was a sliver between the ball and the line, so I kept my yap shut, as I had no opinion on whether the ball was in or out.

Our opponents had an opinion, though. They expressed some serious disgust with my partner. Me, I just stood there. Didn't see it, couldn't help her, tried to be invisible.

It is funny how people can be insanely wrong about a call. I was playing with a different lady in a social, this one who does not have a reputation for making bad line calls. I'm receiving serve, she's standing on the service line to call that line. The serve comes. It is well in. Like 4-5 inches in. Not even close. She calls it out. The other three of us just stopped dead. What had she said -- "Ouch"? Surely she didn't say "Out." Yep, she did. She ultimately believed us when we all said it was in, but she was obviously embarrassed and confused.

Cindysphinx
04-24-2009, 04:51 PM
I always thought, if one person on my team sees the ball out, it's out. If I think it's clearly in, I'll talk to him, and if he concedes it in, then we'll correct ourselves. Otherwise, we stand with the ball being out.

Well, technically, that's backward. If one sees it out *and the other sees it in*, then it is in. If the second person isn't sure, didn't see it, etc., then she can go by her partner's call by saying she didn't see it clearly.

If my partner questions my "out" call in the least, I back down. 'Cause we disagree, which means the ball has to be called good. There is no sense fighting a battle with my partner that I will absolutely lose.

JavierLW
04-25-2009, 06:22 AM
You know, many captains ask players to tell them at the beginning of the season who they wish to partner with and who they wish to avoid. I tend not to do this for several reasons, and instead I approach individuals about these preferences when I think there is a good reason. Usually the reason is either that they are a franchise player I need to keep happy, or they are a picky player, or they are new and I don't yet know what to do with them.

The answers I get are interesting. People have all sorts of reasons why they won't partner with someone. I have heard:

1. "She groans when I make a mistake."

2. "I set up points and she hits the ball into the net or out."

3. "She is slow."

4. "Opponents hit every ball to her; what am I supposed to do?"

5. "She sees in balls as out. It's embarrassing. I'm going to get a reputation for cheating."

6. "She's mentally weak."

7. "She coaches me the whole match."

8. "Every time we lose a point, she dissects it and concludes that I did something wrong."

I can't imagine what kind of earful I'd get if I actually asked all 18 women to tell me who they don't want to play with!

As for me, I counted up the number of doubles partners I have had since the day in 2005 that I played my first USTA match. This would include Ladies 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0, plus mixed 7.0 and combo 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5. Are you ready?

I have had *53* different male and female partners.

Good lord. No wonder I can't win!

Cindy -- who has only expressly refused to partner with one person during her entire time with USTA

These are all good reasons for not playing with someone. Unfortunately at some levels and on some teams it might be impossible to avoid any of this stuff unless have the ability to create your own team and be REALLY pick about who you put on it.

I dont think it has anything to do with them being women, it just has to do with the people you happen to play with. When I was running a 3.0 Men's team full of random people that the league created it was pretty much the same thing. (both that it was hard to find the "perfect" partner and that a lot of people complained)

JavierLW
04-25-2009, 06:34 AM
^^^^ Cindy, I have a theory: Men focus on finding a solution. Women prefer to discuss the situation ad nauseum.

Which strategy do you think is more effective (i.e. in doubles)?

You're generalizing what Men do and what Women do, that's the problem with your post.

jrod
04-25-2009, 07:11 AM
You're generalizing what Men do and what Women do, that's the problem with your post.

Exactly, although I see no problem as long as we all agree it's a generalization. What exactly did you think I was intending here?

JavierLW
04-25-2009, 07:24 AM
Exactly, although I see no problem as long as we all agree it's a generalization. What exactly did you think I was intending here?

You're using your own limited experiences to demonstrate that somehow men always "solve the problem", and women always "discuss it ad nauseum".

Which is not true, some men cry and will go on and on about things ad nauseum (or post it on TW's talk site), and some women are actually quite rational, it depends on the individual not what their gender happens to be.

You're basically painting a stereotype which is offensive to some because not all women are like that. Whether you intended that or not, it's not something worth saying.

jrod
04-25-2009, 07:28 AM
You're using your own limited experiences to demonstrate that somehow men always "solve the problem", and women always "discuss it ad nauseum".

Which is not true, some men cry and will go on and on about things ad nauseum (or post it on TW's talk site), and some women are actually quite rational, it depends on the individual not what their gender happens to be.

You're basically painting a stereotype which is offensive to some because not all women are like that. Whether you intended that or not, it's not something worth saying.

Exactly what part of "generalization" don't you get?

sureshs
04-25-2009, 09:07 AM
About men solving problems: I had posted previously about a guy who verbally abused his partner for slow movement, after being told that he was on diabetic medication and feeling some side effects. The abuse continued after the match, leading to a fist fight, and then the guy was asked not to return to the club any more. Now only his son plays here on the family membership.

Cindysphinx
04-25-2009, 09:16 AM
Could there be any way to debunk the idea that men solve problems and women discuss ad nauseum than to read the discussion a couple of posts above? :) :)

jrod
04-25-2009, 12:34 PM
Could there be any way to debunk the idea that men solve problems and women discuss ad nauseum than to read the discussion a couple of posts above? :) :)


Touche!!!!

benasp
04-25-2009, 07:38 PM
I don't know what the code is but if i was you i'd give the opponent the point, this is not their fault if you girls can't get to a consensus, if the rule say to replay the point then the rule is dumb.

JavierLW
04-26-2009, 01:30 PM
I don't know what the code is but if i was you i'd give the opponent the point, this is not their fault if you girls can't get to a consensus, if the rule say to replay the point then the rule is dumb.

Says you. They didnt do anything to warrant winning the point (it got returned anyway), so there is no reason that they should win the point.

Tennis is an honorable sport and sometimes people make an honest mistake, that's why you dont penalized for that.

Cindysphinx
04-26-2009, 01:38 PM
I don't know what the code is but if i was you i'd give the opponent the point, this is not their fault if you girls can't get to a consensus, if the rule say to replay the point then the rule is dumb.

The rule isn't dumb. The rule is outstanding. The only thing wrong with the rule is that too many people don't know it!

It is asking a lot of players to make close line calls while they are also caught up in playing the match. Yet we want to encourage people to own their mistakes. So we allow them to correct themselves *promptly* and play a let if they returned the ball. It's not a rule I would change if it were up to me.

Joeyg
04-26-2009, 01:54 PM
Cindy,

A rules clarification. If your partner calls the ball was out and you play it, but your opponents stop play because of the out call, you lose the point. Your opponents were correct in claiming the point.

JavierLW
04-26-2009, 02:07 PM
Cindy,

A rules clarification. If your partner calls the ball was out and you play it, but your opponents stop play because of the out call, you lose the point. Your opponents were correct in claiming the point.

That's not true. Why do we have to go thru this everytime this is brought up?

If you're going to make a "rules clarification" then post some rules, they are on www.usta.com. Ive done this like 2 or 3 times on here on this same subject.

Please read some old posts so we dont have to go thru the whole argument about this again.

Crusher10s
04-26-2009, 04:15 PM
As I so recently and humbly found out:

Both Cindy and Javier are correct:

USTA wants people to be as honest as possible and if you or your partner make a bad call but return the ball in the proper court, a let is played. Happens in both the serve as well as in the middle of a point.

Believe me, I was taught the "old school" way of automatically conceding the point but I did some research and found out I was wrong.

Cindysphinx
04-26-2009, 04:54 PM
Code 12: "Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then realizes it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball within the proper court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results in a “weak sitter,” the player should give the opponent the point. If the player failed to make the return, the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was
made on the second serve, the server is entitled to two serves."

Joeyg
04-26-2009, 07:50 PM
You learn something new every day. I always thought that if partners disagreed on a call, the other team was awarded the point if they did not play out the point due to the erroneous call.

Cindysphinx
04-27-2009, 03:21 AM
You learn something new every day. I always thought that if partners disagreed on a call, the other team was awarded the point if they did not play out the point due to the erroneous call.

Here's the bit you're probably thinking of. Note the cross-reference to Rule 12:

14. Partners’ disagreement on calls. If one partner calls the ball out and the other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good. It is more important to give your opponents the benefit of the doubt than to avoid possibly hurting your partner’s feelings. The tactful way to achieve the desired result is to tell your partner quietly of the mistake and then let your partner concede the point. If a call is changed from out to good, the principles of Code §12 apply.

Don't feel badly. After this little episode with my partner, I wrote a note to the team explaining what happened and quoting the applicable Code provisions. Every person who replied erroneously believed the point should have gone to the opponent.

woodrow1029
04-27-2009, 07:48 AM
You learn something new every day. I always thought that if partners disagreed on a call, the other team was awarded the point if they did not play out the point due to the erroneous call.
Code 12, by the way, only applies to an unofficiated match.

Anytime there is a chair umpire, even if the players are making their own calls, the player loses the point if he calls out then corrects the call.

Also, in case there are any college players reading this, so you are not confused, in college tennis you lose the point if you call out and then correct your call regardless whether it is officiated or unofficiated.

Cindysphinx
04-27-2009, 08:58 AM
Hmmm. I've never played a match with a chair umpire.

When there are roving officials, is this considered unofficiated such that the Code applies?

I thought the way it works was that if the player calls the ball out and the official corrects and calls it good, the player loses the point. (I know this for a fact because a lady hooked me on match point of a tournament, and the roving official awarded me the point and therefore the match). But if the player corrects herself promptly, then it's a let.

But like I said, I don't play tournaments so I don't know. . . .

woodrow1029
04-27-2009, 09:04 AM
Hmmm. I've never played a match with a chair umpire.

When there are roving officials, is this considered unofficiated such that the Code applies?

I thought the way it works was that if the player calls the ball out and the official corrects and calls it good, the player loses the point. (I know this for a fact because a lady hooked me on match point of a tournament, and the roving official awarded me the point and therefore the match). But if the player corrects herself promptly, then it's a let.

But like I said, I don't play tournaments so I don't know. . . .
If a roving official corrects the call, then the player loses the point.

If there is a roving official and the player corrects their own call, then it is considered an unofficiated match and the point would be replayed if the ball goes back into the proper court.

Cindysphinx
04-27-2009, 09:16 AM
If a roving official corrects the call, then the player loses the point.

If there is a roving official and the player corrects their own call, then it is considered an unofficiated match and the point would be replayed if the ball goes back into the proper court.

Thanks, Woodrow!

Say, Woodrow. Have I ever told you about the time I was playing a tournament and I won the match on an overrule? No?

OK, I was a 2.5. I had learned to play in fall '04 at the local county facility. One-hour group class, 8 students, one instructor. After 6 months of this, I was ready for the big time. I played 2.5 league, and no one could beat me in singles. Played a tournament in Colorado; no one could beat me in singles. I could push better than you ever met!

Then I played this local tournament in the fall of '05. I knew my opponent. She was a 2.5 pusher also. Oh, we pushed it, pushed it, pushed it real good. I had no backhand and played every ball as a forehand. Finally, it was time for a 10-point tiebreak. I took the early lead and soon I had match point. She floated in a serve, and we had an incredible rally. Oh, the loft those balls had! The roving official was standing on my opponent's baseline when I hit the Mother Of All Push-Balls. It was like the final home-run shot in a baseball movie, taking forever to come down to earth. "OUT!" my opponent cried with gusto, really selling that call. The roving official immediately made the signal for good. "What was the score before this point?" she asked. "Eight serving nine," my opponent said. "Point to your opponent," said the roving officials. "Go shake hands."

Now, I know what you're thinking, Woodrow. Who won the tournament in the end?

You'll have to beg me to tell you *that* story! :)

gocard02
04-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Well, technically, that's backward. If one sees it out *and the other sees it in*, then it is in. If the second person isn't sure, didn't see it, etc., then she can go by her partner's call by saying she didn't see it clearly.

If my partner questions my "out" call in the least, I back down. 'Cause we disagree, which means the ball has to be called good. There is no sense fighting a battle with my partner that I will absolutely lose.

If it were me, I'd trust that my partner had a reason for calling it out, and I'll stick up for their call, just as I expect them to stick up for my calls when I call it out. I trust their integrity, and they should trust mine. If I had a problem with the way my teammate was calling lines, I'd talk to them privately about it, and wouldn't announce it to the other team.

Cindysphinx
04-27-2009, 01:01 PM
I gotta tell ya, this issue frustrates me so much! Those who say you shoudln't overrule your partner always seem to align in a way that *they* get points they shouldn't get. Had I "gone with my partner's call," then we would have won a game we weren't entitled to win.

I mean, perhaps it would be better if the Code were different or allowed some leeway. But it is crystal clear. You are supposed to give benefit of the doubt, when partners see it differently then it is in, and you are explicitly told you are supposed to correct your partner and how to do it.

Man, I could do so much more winning if I were willing to protect my partner's "integrity."

JavierLW
04-27-2009, 01:38 PM
If it were me, I'd trust that my partner had a reason for calling it out, and I'll stick up for their call, just as I expect them to stick up for my calls when I call it out. I trust their integrity, and they should trust mine. If I had a problem with the way my teammate was calling lines, I'd talk to them privately about it, and wouldn't announce it to the other team.

It has nothing to do with "integrity".

Sometimes people make an honest mistake or they see things that weren't there.

You should be able to overrule them, and they should not be upset or embarrassed by it, if they are then they have issues...

It's not like you are yelling out "LIAR!!! YOU ARE A LIAR!!!!!".

No, you're just saying you saw it go in. Once you say that the point is over anyway and then you follow the rules that go along with that, there is no need for any argument.

Also blind trust in someone's integrity just because they are your partner is not integrity at all.

Are you saying that if you actually SAW it go in, you would not overrule it because "your partner must have a "reason" for calling it out".

What might that reason be, if you clearly saw it go in???

People who are not emotionally attached to it can just make the right call and move on.

Steady Eddy
04-27-2009, 01:50 PM
It has nothing to do with "integrity".

Sometimes people make an honest mistake or they see things that weren't there.

But since this can happen to 'other' people, it must be able to happen to me, and you too. This means sometimes you will be wrong about a shot over which you felt certain. This is why I wouldn't over-rule a partner. How would you like to be the partner who makes a correct call and then get over-ruled by his partner? You can't be sure you're right either, so just remain quiet. The rule is to say nothing unless you're sure, the partner must have felt sure, so give him/her his/her respect.

JavierLW
04-27-2009, 02:24 PM
But since this can happen to 'other' people, it must be able to happen to me, and you too. This means sometimes you will be wrong about a shot over which you felt certain. This is why I wouldn't over-rule a partner. How would you like to be the partner who makes a correct call and then get over-ruled by his partner? You can't be sure you're right either, so just remain quiet. The rule is to say nothing unless you're sure, the partner must have felt sure, so give him/her his/her respect.

Ah I see.

So that's one more vote for:

"IF YOU CLEARLY SEE IT AS IN, YOU DONT OVERRULE YOUR PARTNER".

Integrity at it's finest....

Like it or not your partner may accidently make a bad call here and there and you may clearly see it go in. It happens to me all the time on serves (I see it land actually in FRONT of the service line).

Obviously Im not going to overrule them if Im not sure it's in.

You know what? If I did get overruled, I would just let it go, i wouldnt sit there and argue about it with my own partner!!! I certainly wouldnt cry about it later either, people make mistakes once in awhile, just move on and play tennis. (by rule once they say it's IN, it's IN anyway and you cant do anything about it so it's not worth even worrying about)

Cindysphinx
04-27-2009, 02:32 PM
How can you know who is seeing it correctly? Well, the Code does tell us the pitfalls of calling lines you are not in position to see (looking across a line rather than down a line). If you go by that (for instance, you are calling the service line for your partner), you will be fine.

So if I am receiving and my partner calls a ball long and I think it might be in, I go with my partner's call. Why? Because she is in a better position to make the call, I have delegated this job to her, and I am not watching as closely because of that.

I would hope my partners have enough respect for me as an adult to know they can overrule me if I am way off on a call. Really, we are mature adults playing a little game. You don't have to get your nose out of joint if someone thinks you saw a ball incorrectly.

In my last match, my partner was playing a ball in the deuce court, at about the T. I looked over and could see she was in trouble. The ball landed near the far sideline, and she called it out. She was *right there,* looking down the line. I was looking across the line. So I did not overrule her because I couldn't be sure it was in.

Our opponents, one of whom was also right on the line, gave her the 4.0 treatment: Severe eyerolls. Of the "Go ahead and call the lines tight; we'll beat you anyway."

And they did.

Steady Eddy
04-27-2009, 02:35 PM
Ah I see.

So that's one more vote for:

"IF YOU CLEARLY SEE IT AS IN, YOU DONT OVERRULE YOUR PARTNER".

Integrity at it's finest....

Ok, to you it's an integrity issue, to me it's a politeness issue. I think that who wins a point isn't important enough to contradict someone over. That's just my value system, I can't prove it. I don't question the opponents calls, and I don't fuss with my partner's calls either. "But what if a good shot was called out?" I suppose that could happen. So what? Nothing is perfect. Remain quiet.

gocard02
04-27-2009, 02:51 PM
Ah I see.

So that's one more vote for:

"IF YOU CLEARLY SEE IT AS IN, YOU DONT OVERRULE YOUR PARTNER".

Integrity at it's finest....

Like it or not your partner may accidently make a bad call here and there and you may clearly see it go in. It happens to me all the time on serves (I see it land actually in FRONT of the service line).

Obviously Im not going to overrule them if Im not sure it's in.

You know what? If I did get overruled, I would just let it go, i wouldnt sit there and argue about it with my own partner!!! I certainly wouldnt cry about it later either, people make mistakes once in awhile, just move on and play tennis. (by rule once they say it's IN, it's IN anyway and you cant do anything about it so it's not worth even worrying about)

By the same token, shouldn't you let it go if your teammate doesn't want to get overruled?

I actually don't think the rule is definitive in what to do. I actually think it leaves a lot to interpretation, but encourages you to call balls in in the event of a disagreement.

First of all it says that "If one partner calls the ball out and the other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good." It does not state that the ball is good. It states that they still need to reverse their call and call it good. What happens if they talk it over and decide that the guy who saw it in wasn't certain enough to overrule his teammate. I think the call standing in this situation would be warranted, especially if you look at the closing of the rule: "If a call is changed from out to good..." That, to me, definitely implies that there are instances where a call is NOT changed from out to good.

JavierLW
04-27-2009, 05:35 PM
By the same token, shouldn't you let it go if your teammate doesn't want to get overruled?

I actually don't think the rule is definitive in what to do. I actually think it leaves a lot to interpretation, but encourages you to call balls in in the event of a disagreement.

First of all it says that "If one partner calls the ball out and the other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good." It does not state that the ball is good. It states that they still need to reverse their call and call it good. What happens if they talk it over and decide that the guy who saw it in wasn't certain enough to overrule his teammate. I think the call standing in this situation would be warranted, especially if you look at the closing of the rule: "If a call is changed from out to good..." That, to me, definitely implies that there are instances where a call is NOT changed from out to good.

"If one partner calls the ball out and the other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good."

Read that whole rule (Code14 posted above)

Any show of doubt (in singles or doubles) pretty much means you shouldnt be able to call it out. You dont get to have a pow-wow and discuss it after the fact.

And that's whether you go by the (overrule if you see it in, or SteadyEddy's watch it go in and be quiet about it approach knowing full well that the wrong call is being made).

In either event if someone does manage to open their mouth and say it's in, then it's in. You cant go back and change your call again, because that would make you look really stupid. Hopefully even SteadyEddy would agree with me there.

As far as SteadyEddy goes, integrity can go both ways.

The game is more fun when the correct call is made and unless someone is a big crybaby and just out for the WIN they will accept that.

Watching the ball go in but not saying anything is cheating, Im sorry but it is. (and we're talking only about balls that you clearly saw go in, not ones that you are not sure about but your partner called out)

Im talking about balls that you see land well before the service line (happens to me all the time with one partner).

I dont question my opponents calls either unless it's just clearly a horrible call (like a foot in), although even in those cases obviously they actually mean to cheat big time so questioning them doesnt really help much although I can embarrass their partner and sometimes that helps.

I hate people that question every single close line call, they happen to always be the same people who probably make horrible calls themselves because they are too emotionally involved in the match and they want it to go out so badly that any close call is out, and any close ball on my side just has to be in.

JavierLW
04-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Ok, to you it's an integrity issue, to me it's a politeness issue. I think that who wins a point isn't important enough to contradict someone over. That's just my value system, I can't prove it. I don't question the opponents calls, and I don't fuss with my partner's calls either. "But what if a good shot was called out?" I suppose that could happen. So what? Nothing is perfect. Remain quiet.

It's polite for your team to call a ball out that you clearly saw go in?

I dont think so.....

It's funny how self centered people can be when they use the word "polite", as if all that exists out there is themselves, their partners, their family and their friends.

That's supposed to be what separates tennis from other sports (like Football where if we watch a bad call favor our team we love it to death), it's supposed to be a gentleman's game where the best player wins, not a game where you get lucky because your partner makes a bad call and you win a point you didn't deserve.

If your partner feels the same way they wont care, people make mistakes all the time, it doesn't mean they are cheating if you overrule them from time to time.

If it's so much of an issue that someone has to either keep quiet all the time (which is embarrassing if your opponent also saw it clearly go in), or you are trying to overrule them and they get mad, then it's time to find a new partner. It's not worth the distraction.

gocard02
04-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Any show of doubt (in singles or doubles) pretty much means you shouldnt be able to call it out. You dont get to have a pow-wow and discuss it after the fact.

Well, if someone verbally called it in, then yeah, this is moot. If not, you can definitely pow wow after the point. If you looked at the rule, they encourage you to "tell your partner quietly of the mistake and then let your partner concede the point." Sounds like a pow wow to me. Plus, the other team should not even know you're discussing whether it's in or out. You keep that stuff within the team. For all they know, you're discussing strategy for the next point.

I wouldn't verbally call it in, I wouldn't show any doubt. I'd check with my teammate, and if he insists, then I trust him and go by his call.

Steady Eddy
04-28-2009, 07:00 AM
It's polite for your team to call a ball out that you clearly saw go in?

I dont think so.....

It's funny how self centered people can be when they use the word "polite", as if all that exists out there is themselves, their partners, their family and their friends.

That's supposed to be what separates tennis from other sports (like Football where if we watch a bad call favor our team we love it to death), it's supposed to be a gentleman's game where the best player wins, not a game where you get lucky because your partner makes a bad call and you win a point you didn't deserve.

If your partner feels the same way they wont care, people make mistakes all the time, it doesn't mean they are cheating if you overrule them from time to time.

If it's so much of an issue that someone has to either keep quiet all the time (which is embarrassing if your opponent also saw it clearly go in), or you are trying to overrule them and they get mad, then it's time to find a new partner. It's not worth the distraction.
I'd argue with this, but it wouldn't be polite. :)

jrod
04-28-2009, 07:17 AM
Can I use the term "ad nauseum" twice in the same thread?

Of course, I do realize this is at the risk of (again) proving I was DEAD WRONG in my earlier generalizations about the tendancies of men and women...

JavierLW
04-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Can I use the term "ad nauseum" twice in the same thread?

Of course, I do realize this is at the risk of (again) proving I was DEAD WRONG in my earlier generalizations about the tendancies of men and women...

Yes you can. Such as in: This entire thread is ad nauseum..... :-)

Kaptain Karl
04-28-2009, 11:42 AM
Pay attention to what Woodrow posts. He's a "real life" Official. Cindy was correct. If I ever knew who gocard02 was in real life, I'd prefer not to have him on the same court. He/she needs to work on the "honor" part of the game....

I'm sure that there is something fundamentally different when it comes to womens doubles vs. mens doubles.As a HS Coach I will state there is more "drama" overall among female tennis players. BUT ... (Note the "but") ... some of my most crazy "dramatic" events have been centered around male tennis personalities. IOW, there are more "issues" with females; males "issues" can be real "doozies".



If it were me, I'd trust that my partner had a reason for calling it out, and I'll stick up for their call, just as I expect them to stick up for my calls when I call it out. I trust their integrity, and they should trust mine. If I had a problem with the way my teammate was calling lines, I'd talk to them privately about it, and wouldn't announce it to the other team.You overstate this. It's not a question of "having a problem." It's simply fixing an error. I've been overruled; I *appreciate* it when my partner makes sure we are not getting calls we don't deserve.


==============


Choosing a doubles team is as much Art as it is Science. I would say the three top types of partnerships are:

A power player with a steady reliable player.

A quick speedy player with a steady reliable player.

Two quick speedy players.

... Any of these can be "ideal" partnerships from a skills & ability viewpoint. After that comes the psychological part; and THAT can and sometimes does, make a Coach or Captain toss out the above so-called ideal pairings.


==============


I'd argue with this, but it wouldn't be polite. That was a good one...!

- KK

jrod
04-28-2009, 11:47 AM
...
As a HS Coach I will state there is more "drama" overall among female tennis players. BUT ... (Note the "but") ... some of my most crazy "dramatic" events have been centered around male tennis personalities. IOW, there are more "issues" with females; males "issues" can be real "doozies".
...

Mean vs. variance: Generalizations like this address the sample mean, not sample variance. No arguments here...

gocard02
04-28-2009, 01:04 PM
If I ever knew who gocard02 was in real life, I'd prefer not to have him on the same court. He/she needs to work on the "honor" part of the game....

Wow, I didn't know my honor was at stake. You're the first person to even hint I might be cheating on the lines, and you didn't even have to play me.

I don't call balls out unless I'm 100% certain they're out. It's only out when I see court between the ball and the line as its bouncing. If I don't see it or if I'm not certain I saw it, I keep playing as if it's in. And I trust my partner to do the same, just as I trust the opposing team to do the same. If I think I see it differently, I trust that they saw something I failed to see. I question my ability to see the ball before I question their ability and their integrity. If that means I have no honor, then I'm fine with it.

JavierLW
04-28-2009, 01:56 PM
Wow, I didn't know my honor was at stake. You're the first person to even hint I might be cheating on the lines, and you didn't even have to play me.

I don't call balls out unless I'm 100% certain they're out. It's only out when I see court between the ball and the line as its bouncing. If I don't see it or if I'm not certain I saw it, I keep playing as if it's in. And I trust my partner to do the same, just as I trust the opposing team to do the same. If I think I see it differently, I trust that they saw something I failed to see. I question my ability to see the ball before I question their ability and their integrity. If that means I have no honor, then I'm fine with it.

It either means you have no honor or you have very bad judgment. :-)

Let's look at this logically.

Same shot....

You see that it's clearly in. (you see that there is court between the ball and the line on the IN side even)

If your partner doesnt say it's out, I assume one wont call it out. You saw that it was clearly in.

But if your partner calls it out, now you suddenly lost faith in your own eyesight and judgment so you wont overrule your partners call?????

If Im your opponent and I see that ball go clearly in, that's what Im going to think, you're not an honest person and Im going to have trouble believing you didnt see the ball go clearly in. Or you are just too ashamed to overrule your partner. Or that you have horrible judgement.

Maybe you've been fortunate enough to never have a partner who makes the occasional horrible line call, but it happens. If they get angry at overrules on top of that it's sometimes reason enough for me to find a new partner (but I dont like the extra drama out there).

gocard02
04-28-2009, 02:25 PM
It either means you have no honor or you have very bad judgment. :-)

Let's look at this logically.

Same shot....

You see that it's clearly in. (you see that there is court between the ball and the line on the IN side even)

If your partner doesnt say it's out, I assume one wont call it out. You saw that it was clearly in.

But if your partner calls it out, now you suddenly lost faith in your own eyesight and judgment so you wont overrule your partners call?????

If Im your opponent and I see that ball go clearly in, that's what Im going to think, you're not an honest person and Im going to have trouble believing you didnt see the ball go clearly in. Or you are just too ashamed to overrule your partner. Or that you have horrible judgement.

Maybe you've been fortunate enough to never have a partner who makes the occasional horrible line call, but it happens. If they get angry at overrules on top of that it's sometimes reason enough for me to find a new partner (but I dont like the extra drama out there).

You seem to be missing an important point. I'm not saying that we wouldn't change the call, but I'd let my partner correct himself. Often times between points, I like to chat with my partner, and on that occassion, I'd let him know privately that I thought it was in. I'd leave it up to him to correct the call. If this doesn't cause enough doubt in his mind to change the call, then I know he's very confident with the call, and so I'm confident with the call.

kylebarendrick
04-28-2009, 03:20 PM
One problem in practice with that approach (and I agree that checking with your partner before announcing the disagreement to the other team is a good thing) is this:

A) Opponent hits a ball that is clearly "in" (you see it as in, your opponent sees it in, etc.)
B) Partner calls ball "out" (I assuming it is a good faith call that just happens to be wrong)
C) Before he even finishes making the "t" sound in the word "out" the opponent is shouting "What?! Are you sure of that call?! What did YOU see?"
D) Tensions are now high and even turning to your partner to discuss it will convince your opponents that you disagree with his call
E) So now you have two choices: (1) lie and say you didn't see it or that you saw the ball out, or (2) tell the truth and say you thought it was good.

Kevo
04-28-2009, 03:56 PM
Here is what really gets me. I've seen this on a number of occasions.

For most of the set the game is tight and both sides are calling the balls very fairly. In fact they tend to call the ball in when it is likely out. This is what usually happens in my experience.

The game starts to get tight near the end of the set and the score is something like 4 all or 4-5. Now I am the type of player that tends to go for more when I'm tight, and so I hit a big first serve that lands square on the line at 30 all and the opponent calls the ball out when it was clearly (from my point of view) on the line. I question the call, go look for a mark, and there isn't any, but he stands by the call.

I'm frustrated and double fault. Next ball hits the tape and dribbles in and he gets the break, wins the game and the set.

To top it off, he apologizes for the call before the start of the second set. I mean what am I supposed to do with that?

I've had this sort of thing happen quite a few times. Once it was even one of my league team mates at a city tournament who called an ace out, and even his doubles partner was already moving back to return. He clearly thought it was good. That ace was in a tiebreak.

I think you really see what kind of player someone is when the match is tight and the game is on the line.

Cindysphinx
04-29-2009, 04:19 AM
One problem in practice with that approach (and I agree that checking with your partner before announcing the disagreement to the other team is a good thing) is this:

A) Opponent hits a ball that is clearly "in" (you see it as in, your opponent sees it in, etc.)
B) Partner calls ball "out" (I assuming it is a good faith call that just happens to be wrong)
C) Before he even finishes making the "t" sound in the word "out" the opponent is shouting "What?! Are you sure of that call?! What did YOU see?"
D) Tensions are now high and even turning to your partner to discuss it will convince your opponents that you disagree with his call
E) So now you have two choices: (1) lie and say you didn't see it or that you saw the ball out, or (2) tell the truth and say you thought it was good.

Exactly. That's why the rule about consulting with your partner is well-intended but difficult to abide. The more obviously wrong the call is, the more likely the opponents will flip out, which rather gets in the way of attempts to handle the matter delicately.

Indeed, I don't know that the conference would help. While I am strolling toward partner on the other side of the court to have a conference, she is defending her call and thereby upping the ante: "Nope, it was definitely out. I'm 100% sure. Yes indeedy, not even close." I don't think the embarrassment she will suffer from a woodshedding in the form of a conference is much different from the partner just signaling the ball good. Then at least the partner can take some comfort that the point is lost because of a "disagreement between partners" because her partner is a dummy and not because she is blind or her call is wrong.

I do think the most important thing is to get the call right and not take points/games/sets/matches you didn't earn.

JavierLW
04-29-2009, 05:54 AM
You seem to be missing an important point. I'm not saying that we wouldn't change the call, but I'd let my partner correct himself. Often times between points, I like to chat with my partner, and on that occassion, I'd let him know privately that I thought it was in. I'd leave it up to him to correct the call. If this doesn't cause enough doubt in his mind to change the call, then I know he's very confident with the call, and so I'm confident with the call.

Even though you clearly saw it go in? (listening.......)

Rickson
04-29-2009, 06:32 AM
It's great that you went your separate ways.

Kaptain Karl
04-29-2009, 07:57 AM
... I'd let him know privately that I thought it was in. I'd leave it up to him to correct the call. If this doesn't cause enough doubt in his mind to change the call, then I know he's very confident with the call, and so I'm confident with the call.That is so wrong. (Hence, my previous post.)




To top it off, he apologizes for the call before the start of the second set. I mean what am I supposed to do with that?That surely tells me he *at least* knows he was uncertain about the call. Very fishy....

I think you really see what kind of player someone is when the match is tight and the game is on the line.Very true. "Adversity does not build character; it reveals it" (Wish I could remember whose quote that is....)

- KK

drakulie
04-29-2009, 09:14 AM
I play my groundstroke, which lands in.


.....One of the opponents said that was not fair because she stopped playing when my partner called the ball out.

Because your opponent stopped play when she heard the out call, I'm curious to know if you hit an easy ball that your opponent could have put away. Because, if that is the case>>> you lose the point.

Cindysphinx
04-29-2009, 10:41 AM
Because your opponent stopped play when she heard the out call, I'm curious to know if you hit an easy ball that your opponent could have put away. Because, if that is the case>>> you lose the point.

No, I hit a garden variety groundstroke, not an easy sitter. There are some who would say all of my groundstrokes are easy sitters, but there you have it. :)

Kaptain Karl
04-29-2009, 11:04 AM
... if you hit an easy ball that your opponent could have put away. Because, if that is the case>>> you lose the point.No. That is still not correct, drakulie.

- KK

sureshs
04-29-2009, 11:15 AM
12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then
realizes it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball
within the proper court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results
in a “weak sitter,” the player should give the opponent the point. If the player
failed to make the return, the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was
made on the second serve, the server is entitled to two serves.

14. Partners’ disagreement on calls. If one partner calls the ball out and
the other partner sees the ball good, they shall call it good. It is more important to give your opponents the benefit of the doubt than to avoid possibly hurting your partner’s feelings. The tactful way to achieve the desired result is to tell your partner quietly of the mistake and then let your partner concede the point. If a call is changed from out to good, the principles of Code §12 apply.