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View Full Version : Greatest female clay courter ever


thalivest
04-24-2009, 11:42 PM
This poll is based on a recent thread topic. Who do you think the greatest female clay courter of all time. The viable options I can think of are:

-Chris Evert
-Steffi Graf
-Suzanne Lenglen
-Maureen Connolly
-Monica Seles
-Justine Henin (I dont really think so but I thought might as well include her)
-Margaret Court

crabgrass
04-25-2009, 04:09 AM
i'd have it down to evert or graf, hard to rate lenglen but would lean towards her for 3rd.
evert won 7 french titles to grafs 6 and had some incredible winning streaks on the dirt but at their very best i'd slightly favour steffi...either one is worthy of the clay GOAT title though.

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 06:06 AM
What breaks against the Graf edge at RG, secondary better dirtballers, was not a one slam margin, but a 4 slam margin.
Those US opens on har-tru were far more competitive the the RG fields in the 70's. Evert won those three evnts with the loss of only one set! Then add all those US clay courts, Hilton Heads, Amelia Islands, and YEARS withot a single loss. Graff was the best on Red clay. Evert was the best on clay!!

gj011
04-25-2009, 07:39 AM
Graf is not a viable option for this poll, since her 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles belong to Seles.

380pistol
04-25-2009, 10:10 AM
Graf is not a viable option for this poll, since her 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles belong to Seles.

Shut the hell up will you!!!!!!! You are the defintion of a clown. Would Seles have had chances for the French Open 1993-1996 most definitely, but handing them to her a platter, makes you an idiot.

From 1991 til the the stabbing she played Graf twice on clay. Seles lost one in Germany and won 10-8 in the 3rd in the 1992 French Open final, but somehow in your warped mind this translates into the 1993,95 and 96 French Opens "belonging" to Seles. You are a baboon!!!!!!!!

Back to the matter at hand, I'd give it to Evert, unless someone can show me otherwise. Steffi and Monica in the 2 and 3 spots, I don't who;s higher, as I we'll never know what Seles could have done if not for the stabbing. Justine Henin would also have a case, but her "premature" retire killed any chance of her name being included in the discussion. This just the open era.

Overall Lenglen would be in the top 5(maybe even higher), and Connolly falls into the Seles category, definitiely near the top, but I don't know where exactly due to the horse accident.

Hey, baboon why don't you chastise all the players who benefitted when a physical injury (not a flesh wound) ENDED Conolly's career.

Cloudy
04-25-2009, 10:11 AM
Justine would have been :(

gj011
04-25-2009, 10:30 AM
Shut the hell up will you!!!!!!! You are the defintion of a clown. Would Seles have had chances for the French Open 1993-1996 most definitely, but handing them to her a platter, makes you an idiot.

From 1991 til the the stabbing she played Graf twice on clay. Seles lost one in Germany and won 10-8 in the 3rd in the 1992 French Open final, but somehow in your warped mind this translates into the 1993,95 and 96 French Opens "belonging" to Seles. You are a baboon!!!!!!!!

Back to the matter at hand, I'd give it to Evert, unless someone can show me otherwise. Steffi and Monica in the 2 and 3 spots, I don't who;s higher, as I we'll never know what Seles could have done if not for the stabbing. Justine Henin would also have a case, but her "premature" retire killed any chance of her name being included in the discussion. This just the open era.

Overall Lenglen would be in the top 5(maybe even higher), and Connolly falls into the Seles category, definitiely near the top, but I don't know where exactly due to the horse accident.

Hey, baboon why don't you chastise all the players who benefitted when a physical injury (not a flesh wound) ENDED Conolly's career.

Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

Seles stabbing is different than any other injury since it was designed and perpetrated on the tennis court and its sole purpose was to make Graf the GOAT. So anyone who blindly insists that Graf is the GOAT in any way, is inadvertently condoning what Parche did and helping him succeed. So they have to be reminded of stabbing and what it did to Graf's and Seles' careers.

Also the fact that you need to resort to personal insults and false language just speaks about you and arguments you are lacking in this discussion.

grafselesfan
04-25-2009, 10:44 AM
My vote went to Monica Seles. Without the stabbing she would win more French Opens than anyone else and that makes her the greatest clay courter ever IMO. I disagree with gj011 that Graf would not have won more however. I think Graf would have won atleast 2 of her 93, 95, 96, 99 titles since Monica could not win the French every year that decade and there was nobody else that decade who would have stopped her so someone else had to win a couple, and looking at the candidates it has to be Graf.

CEvertFan
04-25-2009, 10:57 AM
Evert is the best clay court player ever.

gj011
04-25-2009, 11:17 AM
My vote went to Monica Seles. Without the stabbing she would win more French Opens than anyone else and that makes her the greatest clay courter ever IMO. I disagree with gj011 that Graf would not have won more however. I think Graf would have won atleast 2 of her 93, 95, 96, 99 titles since Monica could not win the French every year that decade and there was nobody else that decade who would have stopped her so someone else had to win a couple, and looking at the candidates it has to be Graf.

I didn't mention 99 title. That is the only FO title Graf would probably win after 1988.

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 11:30 AM
If you feed trolls, don't complain they hang around!

gj011
04-25-2009, 11:35 AM
If you feed trolls, don't complain they hang around!

Sorry but I am not a troll. I give my opinion on the subject and that is what this board is for.

OTOH your comments here are nothing more than pure trolling.

grafselesfan
04-25-2009, 11:35 AM
I didn't mention 99 title. That is the only FO title Graf would probably win after 1988.

My way of thinking is this. Monica could not have won every French Open from 1990-2001. So someone else had to win at some point. Of the people who did win the most likely by far are Graf and an on fire Pierce. So based on that I figure Graf gets a couple, and Pierce gets 1 or 2 (maybe 1994 as well if she avoids Sanchez with Seles in the draw, I think playing Sanchez took her out of her power groove she was in). That leaves Seles with 8 or 9. I look at the others who won:

Sanchez Vicario- great player and great clay courter but horrible matchup with Monica, and mental block playing Monica as well. Plays Steffi much tougher than she does Monica.

Hingis- best surface is hard courts by far, overrated clay courter as her failure to win a French Open in era of no dominant clay courter proves. Underperformed badly at the French during her prime too. Was crushed by Iva Majoli in 97 final in a shocking upset, was crushed by Seles in the 98 semis, blew a big lead to a past her prime Graf in the 99 final, and lost the 2000 semis to Pierce who she completely owned from 97 onwards. Majoli, a past her prime Sanchez, a past her prime Graf, and Capriati, all won French Opens under her watch which says alot.

Majoli- LOL, do I need to say anything.

Capriati- Seles was getting the better of her most times in the early 2000s even with the stabbing. Not to mention Capriati was never a great clay courter, in the early 90s when she and Monica were having tough 3 setters on hard courts she was losing 6-2, 6-2 to Seles on clay.

boredone3456
04-25-2009, 12:17 PM
Evert is tops followed by Steffi than Monica. Everyone else is sort of a mish-mash. I guess I'd rate them:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Court
5. Lenglen
6. Connolly
7. Henin

But that is sort of arbitrary and really a toss up. numbers 4-7 are highly debateable, but Evert, Graf and Seles are the top 3 by a bit.

DMan
04-25-2009, 12:24 PM
Evert is tops followed by Steffi than Monica. Everyone else is sort of a mish-mash. I guess I'd rate them:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Court
5. Lenglen
6. Connolly
7. Henin

But that is sort of arbitrary and really a toss up. numbers 4-7 are highly debateable, but Evert, Graf and Seles are the top 3 by a bit.

I respectfully disagree with you on Seles as #3 all-time on clay. She won 3 French titles. Court and Henin both had more. Sanchez-Vicario also won 3 French titles, and reached 3 more French finals.

Seles had a great 3 year run in Paris. Other than her 1990 when she swept the Italian and German opens, what clay court events did she win?

Contrary to popular belief, clay was not Seles' best surface.

Henin would have beaten Seles on clay, and is a much more accomplished player on the surface. Court's 5 French titles to Seles' 3 clearly trump her. It would be generous to place Seles in the top 5 all-time on clay. Then again, a small number still like to rate players based on what they think should have happened, instead of what actually happened.

suwanee4712
04-25-2009, 01:03 PM
I think it's between Evert and Graf. And I lean towards Evert because there's no one opponent that she ever consistently struggled with on clay except perhaps Nancy Richey early on in her career. She lost to Jaeger twice, Maleeva twice, and Martina 3 times. Other than that, she only has an odd loss here and there.

Steffi lost quite a few matches to both Sabatini and Sanchez. Not that those are embarrassing losses by any means. But no one rivalled Chris that consistently the way these ladies could Steffi.

I don't think there should be much doubt though that Steffi had the most complete record regardless of the surface, as her slam record attests.

flying24
04-25-2009, 01:28 PM
Evert had much more trouble with prime Martina on clay than Graf did with any opponent other than prime Seles, far more than either Sanchez or Sabatini (especialy Sabatini) overall. Her only matches with Martina on clay were 1973-1975 and 1984-1988 so of course she wasnt going to lose that many matches when there was a huge 8 year hole they didnt even play, and first few years they did play was at a time Martina could never be expected to beat Chris anywhere, let alone on clay. From 1984-1988 the head to head was 4-3 Evert, but with Navratilova brutalizing Evert by embarassing scorelines in all 3 of her wins. Evert on the other hand went to 3 sets in 3 of her 4 wins, including 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd on 2 of them. If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time.

It is interesting how you are now implying Sabatini was a tough opponent for Steffi on clay because of all her wins in tier 1 type events. I thought it was you saying earlier Sabatini wasnt that formidable on clay or opponent of Graf on clay or in general since she couldnt beat her in big events hardly ever. As you yourself pointed out Sabatini only once ever gave Graf a close match at the French Open, and never once beat her there. Sanchez atleast has done some real damage to Steffi in all clay court venues, including the French Open though.

flying24
04-25-2009, 01:35 PM
I voted Evert based on her incredible consistency and longevity on the surface, combined with amazing dominance for a time even vs the horrific mid-late 70s clay court field. So while I still think her competition on clay was pitiful for the most part, and her peak level wasnt neccessarily the highest ever on clay, but her overall performance on the surface over a long career gives her the nod for me.

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 01:39 PM
"If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time."

I don't get your theory here.

flying24
04-25-2009, 01:48 PM
"If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time."

I don't get your theory here.

Basically that despite Evert winning 1 more French Open from 82-86 and leading their French Open head to head 2-1 it seems in some ways that Navratilova was the more dominant vs Evert on clay from 84-85 or 84-86 the only period they played on clay when both were close to their best (like I said they didnt even play a single match on clay after 1975 until 1984). Navratilova destroyed Evert twice on clay during that span, losing only 4 games and 2 games in those 2 matches. Evert beat Navratilova in a really tough 3 setter on clay in another one, and another tough 3 setter in a 1986 match on clay. If you want to extend until 1987, Chris won a tight 3 setter in one match on clay, and Martina spanked Chris for a 3rd time in their last 6 matches on clay, this one in the French Open semis which would bring their FO head to head to 2-2 after 1975.

That is where I took exception with an opinion that: there's no one opponent that she ever consistently struggled with on clay.

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 02:00 PM
From 1988: Vs Of Houston Clay (o) F C. Evert 6-0 6-4 (spanking)

Truth be told from 1985 forward Navratilova won one match on clay vs Evert. To make this long story far shorter, Navratilova, while able to win sets off Evert, But was her better only in 1984 ( x2 victories) and in one other match. Of all the surfaces they played in their rivalry, clay was the most lopsided. You read into dates and sets and primes as much as you care to.

flying24
04-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Vs Of Houston Clay (o) F C. Evert 6-0 6-4

Good for Chris. It was about time she finally give Martina a beating after the # of times Martina had handed her one on her own surface dont you think. :twisted:

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 02:26 PM
3 out of 11 is not impressive. It is lopsided. It's not even 1 meting in 3. Martina played great clay court tennis in 1984 and on that 1987 occsasion. She deserves due credit for her success. otherwise its always the same story, Evert either spanks or or wins the big points at the big times, but inevitably she wins. Martina never won a 3 setter on clay.

flying24
04-25-2009, 02:35 PM
3 out of 11 is not impressive. Martina played great clay court tennis in 1984 and on that 1987 occsasion. She deserves due credit for her success. otherwise its always the same story, Evert either spanks or or wins the big points at the big times, but inevitably she wins. Martina never won a 3 setter on clay.

So do you consider it fair to Martina to consider their 1973-1975 meetings on clay. This is the Martina who not only won 15 of her 18 slams from 1982-1987, but didnt win her 1st slam of a legendary career until July 1978. When she first arrived on the scene she was a massive talent who weighed even more than Serena Williams at her worst did, and had all kinds of emotional turmoil with considering to defect or not, the ramications, etc...In short she was an amazingly talented mess of epic proportions who was almost half a decade from winning anything, and almost a full decade from her prime years.

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 02:40 PM
If she walked on the court, it is fair to judge the result. Martina thought she was mature enough to play on the tour and in the event. She, and you are stuck with the result. When Evert walks on the court in the midst of a divorce, she is stuck with the result. one presumes both champions had growing pains and aging issues as well. No cherrypicking

suwanee4712
04-25-2009, 02:54 PM
Evert had much more trouble with prime Martina on clay than Graf did with any opponent other than prime Seles, far more than either Sanchez or Sabatini (especialy Sabatini) overall. Her only matches with Martina on clay were 1973-1975 and 1984-1988 so of course she wasnt going to lose that many matches when there was a huge 8 year hole they didnt even play, and first few years they did play was at a time Martina could never be expected to beat Chris anywhere, let alone on clay. From 1984-1988 the head to head was 4-3 Evert, but with Navratilova brutalizing Evert by embarassing scorelines in all 3 of her wins. Evert on the other hand went to 3 sets in 3 of her 4 wins, including 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd on 2 of them. If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time.

It is interesting how you are now implying Sabatini was a tough opponent for Steffi on clay because of all her wins in tier 1 type events. I thought it was you saying earlier Sabatini wasnt that formidable on clay or opponent of Graf on clay or in general since she couldnt beat her in big events hardly ever. As you yourself pointed out Sabatini only once ever gave Graf a close match at the French Open, and never once beat her there. Sanchez atleast has done some real damage to Steffi in all clay court venues, including the French Open though.


And you already know that I'm of the opinion that a prime Martina would defeat a player like Sanchez (or Sabatini) in French Open finals with regularity. So you should know from the start that we are going to disagree on this topic. Martina's simply in another league than either of those two players, even if the gap is narrowed by the clay surface.

I still stand by the assertion that Gaby's record was very poor in grand slam paly vs. the greats of her era. But the question is "who is the greatest female clay court players ever?"

To me, that encompasses red clay as well as Har tru. Gaby was a fine clay court player. And I can remember rooting many times to see Steffi overcome the sometimes nastiness and disrespect that the Florida crowds showed her vs. Gaby whether on hard or clay. But there's no denying that Gaby had an impressive record on the Har tru courts of Amelia Island (4-1).

If I were to consider only grand slam play, I would still choose Evert. 3 losses to Sanchez is more damaging than 3 losses to Martina in my book, regardless of surface. Again, knowing my stated opinion earlier, this shouldn't surprise you. I'm merely putting my thoughts and opinions out there.

flying24
04-25-2009, 02:57 PM
And you already know that I'm of the opinion that a prime Martina would defeat a player like Sanchez (or Sabatini) in French Open finals with regularity. So you should know from the start that we are going to disagree on this topic. Martina's simply in another league than either of those two players, even if the gap is narrowed by the clay surface.

I still stand by the assertion that Gaby's record was very poor in grand slam paly vs. the greats of her era. But the question is "who is the greatest female clay court players ever?"

To me, that encompasses red clay as well as Har tru. Gaby was a fine clay court player. And I can remember rooting many times to see Steffi overcome the sometimes nastiness and disrespect that the Florida crowds showed her vs. Gaby whether on hard or clay. But there's no denying that Gaby had an impressive record on the Har tru courts of Amelia Island (4-1).

If I were to consider only grand slam play, I would still choose Evert. 3 losses to Sanchez is more damaging than 3 losses to Martina in my book, regardless of surface. Again, knowing my stated opinion earlier, this shouldn't surprise you. I'm merely putting my thoughts and opinions out there.

Fine, I dont have a problem with anything you just said. I was only responding to your earlier opinion of nobody really creating a consstant struggle for Evert on clay, and disagree with that in regards to a prime Martina. That was all. :)

I guess on another note tennis is alot about matchups. Graf is a better matchup for Sanchez Vicario than possibly any other top 10 all time player in history. She just has the kind of game that drives Graf crazy. Obviously you agree, you were saying you couldnt imagine Sanchez taking a set off a prime Martina at the French Open in atleast 4 out of 5 meetings, while she did vs Graf in 5 out of 5 and beating her 2 out of 5. I doubt you would argue a prime Martina is that far superior to Graf on clay though. So Sanchez just becomes a much tougher matchup for Graf IMO than what her actual ability is. JMO though.

suwanee4712
04-25-2009, 02:59 PM
From 1988: Vs Of Houston Clay (o) F C. Evert 6-0 6-4 (spanking)

Truth be told from 1985 forward Navratilova won one match on clay vs Evert. To make this long story far shorter, Navratilova, while able to win sets off Evert, But was her better only in 1984 ( x2 victories) and in one other match. Of all the surfaces they played in their rivalry, clay was the most lopsided. You read into dates and sets and primes as much as you care to.


You're making me want to pull out the Houston final of 1987 (definitely not 1988) and watch it again. That's probably my favorite non grand slam match in their rivalry. It was great play from both ends of the court, even if knowing that Martina would somehow disagree. But it was a lovely match to watch regardless.

And flying, I may pull out Steffi's 1986 Hilton Head win over Chris to enjoy that monumental first win over Chris. Or perhaps even the 1987 French final that is still one of my favorite grand slam finals.

flying24
04-25-2009, 03:03 PM
And flying, I may pull out Steffi's 1986 Hilton Head win over Chris to enjoy that monumental first win over Chris. Or perhaps even the 1987 French final that is still one of my favorite grand slam finals.

Yes those were both great matches. To be fair so was the Hana-Graf French Open quarterfinal in 86 and the Navratilova-Graf U.S Open semifinal in 86. :) That was probably the only time all 4 of those great players were atleast 80% of their capacity at once and made for alot of great matches. I honestly wish the standard of the other players had remained what it was in 86 to give Graf more competition as she matured later in the decade and really became dominant. Of course with Evert and Martina aging out of their primes, and Hana going away virtually from spring 1987 onwards, while Steffi only got stronger the last couple years of the decade were not all that exciting to watch other than the historical ramifications.

suwanee4712
04-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Yes those were both great matches. To be fair so was the Hana-Graf French Open quarterfinal in 86 and the Navratilova-Graf U.S Open semifinal in 86. :)


I have a feeling despite our disagreements, we could all easily sit down with a bowl of popcorn and pick out some awesome matches to watch. :)


When I'm in a rotten mood and I want to see someone feel worse than I, I'll pull out 1994 US Open Steffi vs. Zina, 1995 Wimbledon Steffi vs. Mary Joe, or some match of the like. Lord knows, Steffi gave many such performances!

BTURNER
04-25-2009, 03:25 PM
You're making me want to pull out the Houston final of 1987 (definitely not 1988) and watch it again. That's probably my favorite non grand slam match in their rivalry. It was great play from both ends of the court, even if knowing that Martina would somehow disagree. But it was a lovely match to watch regardless.

And flying, I may pull out Steffi's 1986 Hilton Head win over Chris to enjoy that monumental first win over Chris. Or perhaps even the 1987 French final that is still one of my favorite grand slam finals.

Damn! no one has the right to watch that 87 Houston match UNTIL I GET MY HANDS ON IT. I heard every shot in the book and in the library was palyed leading to that tiebreaker. When both Evert and Navratilova were on, on either clay or grass, nothing was better for aficionados.

380pistol
04-25-2009, 11:10 PM
Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

Seles stabbing is different than any other injury since it was designed and perpetrated on the tennis court and its sole purpose was to make Graf the GOAT. So anyone who blindly insists that Graf is the GOAT in any way, is inadvertently condoning what Parche did and helping him succeed. So they have to be reminded of stabbing and what it did to Graf's and Seles' careers.

Also the fact that you need to resort to personal insults and false language just speaks about you and arguments you are lacking in this discussion.

Listen and listen clearly cuz I need insult you, cuz listening and comprehending is something you don't do to well.

Did I or did I not say Seles would definitely have chances for every French Open 1993-96?? Yes or no. Either I did or I didn't. I said handing Graf's 1993,1995 and 1996 French titles to Seles (as you did) is absolutely asinine since during 1991-92 when Seles won 6 of 7 slams she contested went 1-1 on clay vs Graf, with her lone victory being 10-8 in the 3rd. So expain to me how this equates Seles beating Graf in Paris 3 out 4 four years.

Now don't twist my words and say I said it couldn't happen, you said "they belong to Seles", based on what genius????

You are using the stabbing as crutch. Did Graf pay the guy to do it??? Was she part of it??? No!!! Take Muster as someone pointed hit by a drunk driver. Not perpetuated by a fan, but it was said docotrs told him to refrain from playing on hardcourts or there could be a possibilty that he could never walk again. Seles' stab wound did no signifigant damage to and major body parts and was a flesh wound. Not making light of anything, what is more severe, the possibility of not walking again, or a flesh wound??? Be serious will you???

You know the truth so you hang to well it was perepetuated by a Graf fan... what has that got to do with Steffi???

Again it's not the fact that the stabbing should not be considered, cuz if you read what I said, I did say "that Seles was one of the greatest claycourters ever, but I don't know where to put her based on the stabbing". But in your mind that's me ignoring it, or not mentioning. What are you on???

But you say "Graf's 1993,95 and 96 French titles belong to Seles". Based on what??? Her 1-1 clay record vs Steffi during a period she won 6 of 7slams. But what did I say "Monica would definitely have a chance for Frecnh Open titles 1993-96", but again in your mind that's crowning Steffi, and overlooking the stabbing. Leave Tina alone you babboon. You see why the insults come at you now.

Unless people place the tiara firmly on Monica's head and give every slam that would have happened 4-5 since the stabbing, then we're not consideiring the incident.

And about fresorting to flase language, how many times have I asked you about......
-Seles' 1-3 record vs Graf in 1991-92 when she made all 7 slam finals of slams she contested winning 6
-Seles' 1993 Aus Open victory over Graf was the first time she beat Graf outside of clay (and that was 10-8 in the 3rd) since 1990 (when Graf was in such peak orm she was losing to Garrison and Sabatini in slams)
-Or any isse Graf had, personal problems, physical injuries (that hindered her actual playing ability), Ruebella (German measles), see a physician abot that


....you're right, you don't resort to "personal insults and false language", you're too good for that. You just run and duck like a snivelling coward. Oops... a personal insult again. But it does "speak about you and arguements you are lacking in this discussion".

gj011
04-26-2009, 04:03 AM
As I said it is interesting how tools like 380pistol always again and again pick only 91-92 when quoting Seles Graf H2H (including two wins in small insignificant tournaments) and skip to mention 1990 (when Seles made it to the top and won her first GS) and pre stabbing 1993. Seles beat Graf three times without losing once in those two periods.

Just shows you that facts and truth do not interest them. Just false ranting about their beloved Graf.

hoodjem
04-26-2009, 05:24 AM
Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

"stubbing"?

There's a virus on my computer. It's called the Monicaisthegoatbecauseofthestubbingandnothingyouca nsaywillmakemeshutupbecausethisismyopinionandiamab surdanddemented Virus

crabgrass
04-26-2009, 07:41 AM
"stubbing"?

There's a virus on my computer. It's called the Monicaisthegoatbecauseofthestubbingandnothingyouca nsaywillmakemeshutupbecausethisismyopinionandiamab surdanddemented Virus

yep the stubbing incident is often overlooked, in the opening game of the '92 wimbledon final seles clearly stubs her toe which renders her useless for the remainder of the match...many have speculated about grafs role in this sinister incident.
to add insult to injury in the post match press conference steffi was quoted as saying 'i thought i had a good chance today but that monica she's a stubbin' one'.

hoodjem
04-26-2009, 07:45 AM
Ha ha. Brilliant.

How could I have overlooked this extremely significant, history-of-the-game altering incident?

gj011
04-26-2009, 07:58 AM
Sure start with typos and spelling correction of an ESL speaker, when you have no more arguments. Typical.

You can troll all you want, but it still does not change the fact that 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles and that Graf would never be considerer anything GOAT if there was no stabbing. Or stubbing if you prefer.

380pistol
04-26-2009, 08:36 AM
As I said it is interesting how tools like 380pistol always again and again pick only 91-92 when quoting Seles Graf H2H (including two wins in small insignificant tournaments) and skip to mention 1990 (when Seles made it to the top and won her first GS) and pre stabbing 1993. Seles beat Graf three times without losing once in those two periods.

Just shows you that facts and truth do not interest them. Just false ranting about their beloved Graf.

Wrong again!!!!!!! I speak on 1991 and 1992 as the that was the height of Seles' dominance. She participated in 7 slams, making every final winning 6. In 1990 she made 1 of 4 slam finals winning that.

I have mentioned 1990 nemerous times, hence I talk about the level of Graf's playing level illustrated by the fact she was losing to Garrison and Sabatini in slams. What year did that happen again?? OK... be quiet then.

I've also stated when Seles beat Graf for the Australian Open (in what year was that???, it escapes), it was her first non clay victory over Steffi since what year??? But in your mind, that is ignoring 1990 and 1993. Baboonizm again!!!!

The truth does not interest me. During Seles peak she went 1-1 vs Graf on clay, her lone victory being 10-8 in the 3rd, but translates to Seles beating Graf 3 times to take 1993,95 and 96 French Opens?? I ask "based on what?", and where was your response??? Is it written in code??? Did you send it telepathically???

Now facts don't interest who??? Who's ranting and raving now??? Sit down baboon!!!

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 09:06 AM
Basically that despite Evert winning 1 more French Open from 82-86 and leading their French Open head to head 2-1 it seems in some ways that Navratilova was the more dominant vs Evert on clay from 84-85 or 84-86 the only period they played on clay when both were close to their best (like I said they didnt even play a single match on clay after 1975 until 1984). Navratilova destroyed Evert twice on clay during that span, losing only 4 games and 2 games in those 2 matches. Evert beat Navratilova in a really tough 3 setter on clay in another one, and another tough 3 setter in a 1986 match on clay. If you want to extend until 1987, Chris won a tight 3 setter in one match on clay, and Martina spanked Chris for a 3rd time in their last 6 matches on clay, this one in the French Open semis which would bring their FO head to head to 2-2 after 1975.

That is where I took exception with an opinion that: there's no one opponent that she ever consistently struggled with on clay.

Navratilova didn't play Evert on clay for such a long period of time because she routinely avoided most of the clay court events for quite a few years. Most of their matches (if you look at the 80 matches) were on grass or indoors, which clearly favored Martina. All due credit to Evert for not avoiding Navratilova on her best surfaces like Navratilova did on Evert's best surface.

egn
04-26-2009, 09:17 AM
I've also stated when Seles beat Graf for the Australian Open (in what year was that???, it escapes), it was her first non clay victory over Steffi since what year??? But in your mind, that is ignoring 1990 and 1993. Baboonizm again!!!!


Just thought I would put out this is soley on clay courters. But your arguement stands up. Seles would have been great but to say she is GOAT when she had only won 3 French Opens..

crazylevity
04-26-2009, 09:23 AM
...............

I'm never setting foot on any thread that mentions "Female GOAT", "Graf" or "Seles" anymore. This is ridiculous.

flying24
04-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Navratilova didn't play Evert on clay for such a long period of time because she routinely avoided most of the clay court events for quite a few years. Most of their matches (if you look at the 80 matches) were on grass or indoors, which clearly favored Martina. All due credit to Evert for not avoiding Navratilova on her best surfaces like Navratilova did on Evert's best surface.

Interesting perspective. I guess that is possible. She played a ton on clay in 1975 and not much after. She did play 3 tournaments on clay in 1982, and 3 in 1983 as well. I think she and Chris were in the draw together at 3 of those 6 but one or the other was upset.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 02:39 PM
Why does Justine Henin have 6 votes. Henin would be spanked by Graf, Seles, Evert, Lenglen, or even Court in their primes on clay. She wasnt even that dominant vs todays weak clay court field in that she had alot of losses in smaller events on clay and alot of near losses at the French. She is probably even only slightly better than Serena at her 2002-2003 peak on clay.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Shut the hell up will you!!!!!!! You are the defintion of a clown. Would Seles have had chances for the French Open 1993-1996 most definitely, but handing them to her a platter, makes you an idiot.

From 1991 til the the stabbing she played Graf twice on clay. Seles lost one in Germany and won 10-8 in the 3rd in the 1992 French Open final, but somehow in your warped mind this translates into the 1993,95 and 96 French Opens "belonging" to Seles. You are a baboon!!!!!!!!

Back to the matter at hand, I'd give it to Evert, unless someone can show me otherwise. Steffi and Monica in the 2 and 3 spots, I don't who;s higher, as I we'll never know what Seles could have done if not for the stabbing. Justine Henin would also have a case, but her "premature" retire killed any chance of her name being included in the discussion. This just the open era.

Overall Lenglen would be in the top 5(maybe even higher), and Connolly falls into the Seles category, definitiely near the top, but I don't know where exactly due to the horse accident.

Hey, baboon why don't you chastise all the players who benefitted when a physical injury (not a flesh wound) ENDED Conolly's career.


Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.

CyBorg
04-26-2009, 03:13 PM
Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.

With her diet, probably not.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 03:30 PM
With her diet, probably not.

Don't think it would have mattered to be honest. Seles was the best player in the world other than grass. Having someone trying to kill you on the court may affect your eating habits too to say nothing of her damaged psyche. Before Steffi's "fan" got her she was the strongest person mentally on the woman's tour. Plus she grew about 3 inches during the period of time which she did not play at all so she had no natural way to adjust to the angles and movement aspects when she did come back. Had she been playing her growth spurt would have been transparent to her like it is anyone else who keeps playing all the time. Steffi was a great player who's GS totals are inflated by the fact that the one player who had her figured out and could not be intimidated by her wasn't there. In my opinion that deranged fan hurt her legacy.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 03:34 PM
Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.

You make no sense really. If Seles was really going to win Graf's French Opens than she is the undisputed GOAT on clay anyway. It is stupid to think she was going to be able to win all Graf's French Opens, yet not also win Sanchez's when Sanchez was 5x easier an opponent for her than Graf, as well as Majoli's.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 03:40 PM
You make no sense really. If Seles was really going to win Graf's French Opens than she is the undisputed GOAT on clay anyway. It is stupid to think she was going to be able to win all Graf's French Opens, yet not also win Sanchez's when Sanchez was 5x easier an opponent for her than Graf, as well as Majoli's.

You can't win 'em all. And even if she did win all those French open's Evert is still better on clay. Look it up. (you'll have to dig deep and do more than just slam count here sorry)

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 03:41 PM
You can't win 'em all.

Then that means Graf was still going to win some more. Any French Opens Seles didnt win for the rest of that decade were going to be Graf's before anyone else. Who was more likely to beat Seles at the French- Steffi Graf, or Sanchez Vicario and Majoli. Dont be stupid.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Then that means Graf was still going to win some more. Any French Opens Seles didnt win for the rest of that decade were going to be Graf's before anyone else. Who was more likely to beat Seles at the French- Steffi Graf, or Sanchez Vicario or Majoli. Dont be stupid.

Not nice to call names. Graf's record is inflated because Seles was not there. Hans Gunther failed as real fans know who won 3-4 last GS encounters. Seles was firmly the world number 1 and getting better. You want to have Steffi worship go ahead, I like her too but she isn't as good as her record indicates.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 03:48 PM
Don't think it would have mattered to be honest. Seles was the best player in the world other than grass. Having someone trying to kill you on the court may affect your eating habits too to say nothing of her damaged psyche. Before Steffi's "fan" got her she was the strongest person mentally on the woman's tour. Plus she grew about 3 inches during the period of time which she did not play at all so she had no natural way to adjust to the angles and movement aspects when she did come back. Had she been playing her growth spurt would have been transparent to her like it is anyone else who keeps playing all the time. Steffi was a great player who's GS totals are inflated by the fact that the one player who had her figured out and could not be intimidated by her wasn't there. In my opinion that deranged fan hurt her legacy.

I am a big fan of both Graf an Seles. However Seles has never beaten Graf on faster surfaces, and I am not only talking grass but even fast hard courts or indoors. Seles was able to win on those latter surfaces in the early 90s since Graf was upset in those events, which she wasnt from 1993 to 1996 hardly ever. I really see Graf continuing to dominate grass, but probably getting the better of Seles at the U.S Open too although I am sure they would have great matches. As for the French Open I already explained why Graf would probably still win atleast a couple more, unless you think Seles was going to win atleast 10 straight. There was nobody else from 93-99 who was going to be more likely to beat Seles at the French than Graf. If you think Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis were more likely to beat Seles at the French Open than Graf then I would like some of what you are smoking. Sanchez is a great player who has a horrible matchup with Seles and is mentally not her usual tough self vs her. Majoli just sucks. Hingis would have the least chance on clay by far of any surface vs Seles, far less than on grass, hard courts, or indoors. Even vs the post stabbing Seles she barely beat her on clay or was destroyed, where as all other surfaces she was faring well vs Seles at that point. Then there is the Australian Open, Graf hardly played it again after 1993 so it is moot.

The stabbing in fact took away alot more from Seles than it added to Graf in the big picture I suspect.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 03:52 PM
Not nice to call names. Graf's record is inflated because Seles was not there. Hans Gunther failed as real fans know who won 3-4 last GS encounters. Seles was firmly the world number 1 and getting better. You want to have Steffi worship go ahead, I like her too but she isn't as good as her record indicates.

I didnt call you stupid, I said dont be stupid with your reasoning. If you think Seles was going to beat Graf for every French Open title than that means she would have won atleast 10 French Opens and be the female clay GOAT easily over anyone else anyway. So it is one or the other basically. Either Seles is the female clay GOAT in your hypothetical, or you are wrong on Graf not winning the French additional times. Either that or your stupid belief Sanchez Vicario, Majoli, or Hingis would beat Seles at the French but Graf wouldnt, in which case if you really feel that way then you really are stupid. :)

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 03:53 PM
I am a big fan of both Graf an Seles. However Seles has never beaten Graf on faster surfaces, and I am not only talking grass but even fast hard courts or indoors. Seles was able to win on those latter surfaces in the early 90s since Graf was upset in those events, which she wasnt from 1993 to 1996 hardly ever. I really see Graf continuing to dominate grass, but probably getting the better of Seles at the U.S Open too although I am sure they would have great matches. As for the French Open I already explained why Graf would probably still win atleast a couple more, unless you think Seles was going to win atleast 10 straight. There was nobody else from 93-99 who was going to be more likely to beat Seles at the French than Graf. If you think Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis were more likely to beat Seles at the French Open than Graf then I would like some of what you are smoking. Sanchez is a great player who has a horrible matchup with Seles and is mentally not her usual tough self vs her. Majoli just sucks. Hingis would have the least chance on clay by far of any surface vs Seles, far less than on grass, hard courts, or indoors. Even vs the post stabbing Seles she barely beat her on clay or was destroyed, where as all other surfaces she was faring well vs Seles at that point. Then there is the Australian Open, Graf hardly played it again after 1993 so it is moot.

The stabbing in fact took away alot more from Seles than it added to Graf in the big picture I suspect.

Leaving your insults aside do you remember their matches? Seles was getting better on hardcourts and don;t you think she would have gotten better on grass?

If you think Graf was in any position at all to retake the the top spot from Seles in 1993 than you do not remember the matches you are simply going back and looking at scores and making a comment in retrospect. Seles was mentally tougher than Steffi which is why she won those close matches. Plus Graf's slice did not bother her except on grass which is basically three weeks out the year. Yes, Wimbledon is worth more than the French but Seles was better everywhere else

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 03:57 PM
Leaving your insults aside do you remember their matches? Seles was getting better on hardcourts and don;t you think she would have gotten better on grass?

If you think Graf was in any position at all to retake the the top spot from Seles in 1993 than you do not remember the matches you are simply going back and looking at scores and making a comment in retrospect. Seles was mentally tougher than Steffi which is why she won those close matches. Plus Graf's slice did not bother her except on grass which is basically three weeks out the year. Yes, Wimbledon is worth more than the French but Seles was better everywhere else

Yes I remember their matches well. I have seen all of them. Their only match on hard courts close to the time of the stabbing was the 1993 Australian Open. Of course that match was on rebound ace, which IMO is Seles's best surface and Graf's worst. Seles IMO would have gone on to be the greatest rebound ace player ever, and Graf hardly played there after 1993 so it doesnt even matter much to Graf's record had Seles continued as normal. That particular surface is further from say decoturf of the U.S Open than even clay is in the matchup between the two. Their last match on hard courts was in the Spring of 1991 which was a more medium paced hard courts. I remember Graf being down 4-1 in the 1st set but coming back to win very easily in the end.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 04:01 PM
You can't win 'em all. And even if she did win all those French open's Evert is still better on clay. Look it up. (you'll have to dig deep and do more than just slam count here sorry)

How would Evert be better on clay if Seles won atleast 10 French Opens, which she was certain to if Graf never won a French which is what you are claiming. Even vs very weak clay court competition, which has already been established in the other thread, Evert only won 7 French Opens. Yet according to you Graf was never going to beat Seles at the French again, which means she was going to win atleast 10 French Opens (I dont care if that is what you are agreeing or not, I am saying it now that if Graf doesnt beat her on clay from 93-99 no way in hell Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis does, fact for fact). So Seles would have won many more French Opens, under your theory of Graf never beating her at the French, and done so vs much more competition than Evert had at the French.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 04:07 PM
Yes I remember their matches well. I have seen all of them. Their only match on hard courts close to the time of the stabbing was the 1993 Australian Open. Of course that match was on rebound ace, which IMO is Seles's best surface and Graf's worst. Seles IMO would have gone on to be the greatest rebound ace player ever, and Graf hardly played there after 1993 so it doesnt even matter much to Graf's record had Seles continued as normal. That particular surface is further from say decoturf of the U.S Open than even clay is in the matchup between the two. Their last match on hard courts was in the Spring of 1991 which was a more medium paced hard courts. I remember Graf being down 4-1 in the 1st set but coming back to win very easily in the end.

That is true but she may have played the AO if Seles was around and Seles would have added to her Slam total there plus with Seles collecting some other Slams at Steffi's expense they may have ended up almost even in slams. I guess my whole point is that it is insane IMO to look at Steffi's slam totals without a knowing nod to the fact there her toughest competition was not there. I recall there battles from that time period ans Seles wasn't going anywhere she was a brutal player who, like you have alluded to dispatched lesser players with ease. She made Sanchez Vicario who was an excellent player - look like the 100th ranked player in the world.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 04:11 PM
How would Evert be better on clay if Seles won atleast 10 French Opens, which she was certain to if Graf never won a French which is what you are claiming. Even vs very weak clay court competition, which has already been established in the other thread, Evert only won 7 French Opens. Yet according to you Graf was never going to beat Seles at the French again, which means she was going to win atleast 10 French Opens (I dont care if that is what you are agreeing or not, I am saying it now that if Graf doesnt beat her on clay from 93-99 no way in hell Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis does, fact for fact). So Seles would have won many more French Opens, under your theory of Graf never beating her at the French, and done so vs much more competition than Evert had at the French.

LOL. Evert was banned from playing the French for two or three straight years in the mid 70's. The tour was way different then with different priorities. No one slam counted back then. At one point Evert won 125 straight on clay and at one point was around 200-1 on the surface. Evert was the queen of clay. End of story. Like I said you have to do more than Slam count on this one.

grafrules
04-26-2009, 04:15 PM
That is true but she may have played the AO if Seles was around and Seles would have added to her Slam total there plus with Seles collecting some other Slams at Steffi's expense they may have ended up almost even in slams. I guess my whole point is that it is insane IMO to look at Steffi's slam totals without a knowing nod to the fact there her toughest competition was not there. I recall there battles from that time period ans Seles wasn't going anywhere she was a brutal player who, like you have alluded to dispatched lesser players with ease. She made Sanchez Vicario who was an excellent player - look like the 100th ranked player in the world.

What on earth makes you think Graf would have played the Australian Open years she didnt if Seles had been there? Graf never willingly skipped the Australian Open. Each time she missed it she was injured. Do you really think she would have given up winning an additional 2 Calender Slams in 1995 and 1996 just because she didnt want to play with Seles not there. If Graf was the greedy vulture you make her out to be she would have been more eager to play there with Seles gone.

Sanchez Vicario is a much tougher matchup for Graf than Seles the same way Seles would have had alot more trouble with Williams, Hingis and Davenport than Graf would have even if they were in their primes together. Seles is fortunate most of the top players in the early 90s were tougher matchups for Graf than for her and she didnt have to play Graf in finals as often. Seles was never anywhere near as dominant vs Steffi as her overall slam dominance in the early 90s would indicate as it was anyway, as it turns out most of the players who emerged later in the decade are ones Seles would have done much worse vs than Graf. Seles is lucky the supporting cast of the early 90s was players like Sanchez and Sabatini and not Williams or Hingis.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 04:24 PM
One can't automatically give every major to Seles after the '93 AO. That's just silly. Would Graf have won less then her 22 majors if Seles had never been stabbed? Probably. Would Seles have won EVERY major until she was past her prime? I seriously don't think so, especially on fast grass or fast hardcourts. Graf was just too good of a player to make that even remotely plausible. What would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed was that the Graf/Seles rivalry would have really come into it's own and blossomed, which is really the thing I would have most liked to have seen.

For the record I don't think Seles would have broken Evert's record 7 French Opens even if she hadn't been stabbed. Even the great Graf couldn't do it, with the absence of Seles, although she's come the closest out of anyone since 1986.

All these woulda coulda shoulda threads are becoming a bit tiresome. Everyone has different opinions and are entitled to express them but there is also a lack of respect for opinions that differ from their own.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 04:40 PM
I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

boredone3456
04-26-2009, 04:42 PM
I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

Wow...Davenport at Number 9...never would have though that in my life, unless that includes green clay?

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 04:45 PM
I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

Which only goes to show how they cant be the only barometer. After all does anyone really believe Justine Henin is a greater clay courter than Monica Seles. Justin won 4 French Opens only because she was in an era with no other quality clay courters. Serena Williams would have even played her pretty close on clay if she kept her 2002-2003 level, and clay is her worst surface by far even at her peak. Even when Evert faced a very weak clay court field in the 70s she atleast completely dominated it. Justine did not even completely dominate the weak clay court field of 2003-2007, losing alot of matches and nearly losing at the French atleast once every year except 2007. Both players in their primes Seles would pound Justine on clay most days.

Also there is no way Hingis is as great as Navratilova on clay. It is Martina's worst surface, but she still won 2 French Opens and was in 6 finals. Martina Hingis couldnt even win the French Open with Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez all past their primes during her time as #1.

Serena is far superior to either Venus or Lindsay on clay too, yet her win % is worse. Serena compared to Lindsay on clay especialy, it isnt even close.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Wow...Davenport at Number 9...never would have though that in my life, unless that includes green clay?

It includes all clay green and red.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Which only goes to show how they cant be the only barometer. After all does anyone really believe Justine Henin is a greater clay courter than Monica Seles. Justin won 4 French Opens only because she was in an era with no other quality clay courters. Serena Williams would have even played her pretty close on clay if she kept her 2002-2003 level, and clay is her worst surface by far even at her peak. Even when Evert faced a very weak clay court field in the 70s she atleast completely dominated it. Justine did not even completely dominate the weak clay court field of 2003-2007, losing alot of matches and nearly losing at the French atleast once every year except 2007. Both players in their primes Seles would pound Justine on clay most days.

Also there is no way Hingis is as great as Navratilova on clay. It is Martina's worst surface, but she still won 2 French Opens and was in 6 finals. Martina Hingis couldnt even win the French Open with Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez all past their primes during her time as #1.

Serena is far superior to either Venus or Lindsay on clay too, yet her win % is worse. Serena compared to Lindsay on clay especialy, it isnt even close.

It's only worse in the context that she doesn't play nearly as many tournaments as she should - both Williams sisters never have, which is part of their problem. Davenport usually played well on green clay but on the slower red clay she wasn't as good as Serena.

boredone3456
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
It includes all clay green and red.

Ahh ok. That clears it up a bit, because if that was just Red Clay based numbers I would seriously contend Davenport having a win percentage that high, but she had some good results on green clay over the years so it makes more sense now, thank you for clearing that up.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 04:54 PM
It's only worse in the context that she doesn't play nearly as many tournaments as she should - both Williams sisters never have, which is part of their problem. Davenport usually played well on green clay but on the slower red clay she wasn't as good as Serena.

Yeah but surely you agree on the whole:

Seles > Henin on clay despite Henin with 1 more French AND apparently a higher winning % on clay

Navratilova > Hingis on clay

Serena > Davenport overall on clay

You are right that Davenport plays really well on green clay which is probably why her winning % is so high, despite usually not faring that well on red clay in Europe. Serena has some really good French Opens and tier 1 tournaments on red clay, but tanks alot of smaller events on clay too. Venus has alot of really good tier 1s on red clay, but unlike Serena hasnt done that well at the French except for once. I agree a big problem for the sisters is not playing more events, and of course playing more smaller events with less complete fields (assuming they take them seriously) would help their winning % presumably.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Yeah but surely you agree on the whole:

Seles > Henin on clay despite Henin with 1 more French AND apparently a higher winning % on clay

Navratilova > Hingis on clay

Serena > Davenport overall on clay

You are right that Davenport plays really well on green clay which is probably why her winning % is so high, despite usually not faring that well on red clay in Europe. Serena has some really good French Opens and tier 1 tournaments on red clay, but tanks alot of smaller events on clay too. Venus has alot of really good tier 1s on red clay, but unlike Serena hasnt done that well at the French except for once. I agree a big problem for the sisters is not playing more events, and of course playing more smaller events with less complete fields (assuming they take them seriously) would help their winning % presumably.


I would have to agree with everything you just said.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 05:04 PM
I would have to agree with everything you just said.

The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 05:10 PM
The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.


LOL you have got to be kidding right? Even without playing nearly as much as they should they have both had a boatload of injuries. If they had played more they would both be retired by now with career ending injuries.

Serena just lost a match to a nobody recently and the #1 ranking to Safina. I wouldn't call that effective I would call that INCONSISTENT. How are they going to add as much to their legacies ad they would need to in order to be considered one of the top 5 best ever? Never gonna happen.

boredone3456
04-26-2009, 05:20 PM
The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.

Venus Still around at 35? yeah I really don't see that happening. I give her another 3 years. Serena at best another 5. Six years each at their current levels of fitness/commitment....I doubt it.

pmerk34
04-26-2009, 05:21 PM
LOL you have got to be kidding right? Even without playing nearly as much as they should they have both had a boatload of injuries. If they had played more they would both be retired by now with career ending injuries.

Serena just lost a match to a nobody recently and the #1 ranking to Safina. I wouldn't call that effective I would call that INCONSISTENT. How are they going to add as much to their legacies ad they would need to in order to be considered one of the top 5 best ever? Never gonna happen.

Boatload of injuries? More like a boatload of pull out's due to claimed injuries. Goes on all the time. Who said they were ever going to be top 5 ever? They have both proven they can win a GS event at any time. Calm down.

grafrules
04-26-2009, 05:32 PM
Venus is turning 29 this year. Her career is almost over. The only surface she has any shot of winning these days is her beloved grass, and the only reason she still has that to hang onto is their is absolutely nobody, other than Serena, who can still play worth a damn on grass. With her advancing age if some semi-decent talent on grass emerges she is toast. Venus has at most 1 more Wimbledon left in her, most likely she has already won her final slam.

Serena is a slightly different story. I could see her winning 3 or 4 more slams. That would probably put her somewhere around #8 all time. That is it though. She only has 8 more non French Opens to play before turning 30, and I dont see her winning slams at 30 or beyond either.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Boatload of injuries? More like a boatload of pull out's due to claimed injuries. Goes on all the time. Who said they were ever going to be top 5 ever? They have both proven they can win a GS event at any time. Calm down.

My 66 year old aunt (who still plays tennis) could win a major against the current pathetic field. For Serena or even Venus to do it should be a no brainer, but I bet they won't win all of the remaining majors this year since Sharapova will be returning and Clijsters will be making her comeback and Safina might get it together enough to pull one off. It's all up to them though.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 05:40 PM
The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

I was talking only about clay in that particular post. Regardless if the Williams have more future achievements on non-clay surfaces on clay they are done. They have done all they will ever do on clay. Venus is a joke on clay these days, she never was particularly great, but today she is a complete irrelevance on clay. The only real question for Venus is whether she will ever make it past the 3rd round of the French Open again. Serena can hang in more than Venus still can on clay but she isnt going to win another French.

As for being contenders another 6 years dream on. Venus has another year and a half as a contender on fast surfaces only and then she is done. She is already done on slow surfaces. Venus may continue to play but she wont be a contender even at Wimbledon or the U.S Open after that next year at the latest. If Navratilova the ultimate late bloomer was winning her final slams at 30, other than a final miracle Wimbledon at 33 only because she avoided playing Graf, then Venus sure as heck wont be winning slams past 30. Serena is a bit younger but already in gross physical shape and beat up with injuries so how long she has depends totally on how long the current field stays as awful as it is now. Once it improves even a bit she is done, since she will never be close to her old level of tennis.

CyBorg
04-26-2009, 07:34 PM
Don't think it would have mattered to be honest.

Of course you don't.

380pistol
04-26-2009, 09:50 PM
Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.

Didn't I say I'd gve it to Evert unless shown otherwise???

And as my baboon friend failed to realize, I never said Monica would or wouldn't have won the 1993, 95 and 96 French Opens that were won by Graf. I said she'd have a very good chance, but to definitively hand them to Monica is downright asinine. During Seles' dominance in 1991-92 they split the clay matches the played and Sels' vicory was 10-8 in the 3rd, so exactly does that constitue her going to RG those years and going 3 for 3 vs Graf?

I have not yet gotten and answer. It's not impossible, but it's also not a given, and that's what I'm saying, and that's what many Selesisians fail to realize.

380pistol
04-26-2009, 09:54 PM
Just thought I would put out this is soley on clay courters. But your arguement stands up. Seles would have been great but to say she is GOAT when she had only won 3 French Opens..

gj011 (and others) have their heads so far up Monica's *** they can't see reason. From the jump I said Seles was among the greatest, (I had Evert #1), but don't know exactly where I'd have her cuz I don't know how her career would have played out if not for the stabbing.

These clowns have Seles winning everything under the sun post stabbing until they see fit when she stops wining, and anything else is ignoring the stabbing.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 10:31 PM
gj011 (and others) have their heads so far up Monica's *** they can't see reason. From the jump I said Seles was among the greatest, (I had Evert #1), but don't know exactly where I'd have her cuz I don't know how her career would have played out if not for the stabbing.

These clowns have Seles winning everything under the sun post stabbing until they see fit when she stops wining, and anything else is ignoring the stabbing.

I just want to make clear I didnt say I believe Seles would have kept winning everything, even the French Open. I was only saying IF, and this was based on someone elses stance, Seles were really going to rise to such an untouchable level of tennis to win all those French Opens Graf's won- 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, then she surely IMO would also win the 3 players much easier opponents for Seles won in this span- Sanchez 1994, Majoli 1997, Sanchez 1998. I dont believe Monica would have won all those French Open's Graf won though, in fact I believe Graf would have won atleast 2 of those 4 as I said, and as I dont think she would have carried out such an insane level all those years to deny Graf all 4 of hers it is possible someone like Sanchez also wins one. So it all becomes a moot hypothetical from my standpoint anyway. I was only talking under someone elses hypothetical that Monica were to play that insane of tennis that long that even Graf couldnt beat her at the French in any of those years.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 10:42 PM
I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

Well I definitely wasnt talking about all events, just the French Open, and I was talking only under someone elses hypothetical, not my own as I said. I was only saying Graf would have stopped her at the French any of those years before Sanchez (great player who fared horribly vs Seles) or Majoli (fluke) ever would have. Anyway I have more than said my piece on that so moving on.

I agree they would have been the 2nd greatest rivalry ever since Navratilova/Evert. Not quite the greatest as it would have only stretched from 1989-1999 as opposed to Evert/Navratilova from 1974/1989, and they never would have played as many matches as they didnt play in many of the same non-slam events, but definitely the next best after that. King vs Court was a pretty good rivalry too though. Evert vs Goolagong actually was also.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 10:54 PM
Well I definitely wasnt talking about all events, just the French Open, and I was talking only under someone elses hypothetical, not my own as I said. I was only saying Graf would have stopped her at the French any of those years before Sanchez (great player who fared horribly vs Seles) or Majoli (fluke) ever would have. Anyway I have more than said my piece on that so moving on.

I agree they would have been the 2nd greatest rivalry ever since Navratilova/Evert. Not quite the greatest as it would have only stretched from 1989-1999 as opposed to Evert/Navratilova from 1974/1989, and they never would have played as many matches as they didnt play in many of the same non-slam events, but definitely the next best after that. King vs Court was a pretty good rivalry too though. Evert vs Goolagong actually was also.

It wasn't meant for you specifically. More in general for those deluded people who actually think Monica would never have lost at all. Silliness.

grafselesfan
04-26-2009, 11:10 PM
It wasn't meant for you specifically. More in general for those deluded people who actually think Monica would never have lost at all. Silliness.

Yeah I agree. I sort of think for the next almost 4 years Graf would have been by far her biggest obstacle/competition. Sanchez was more competition for Graf than Seles as Seles was just a bad matchup for her and she already had a mental block playing Monica. Novotna and Pierce are actually the two players who would have been the biggest dangers for Seles in draws other than Graf from 93-96 I think. Novotna in contrast to Sanchez is a bigger danger to Seles than Graf. Even pre stabbing when Jana wasnt in her prime yet she played Seles super tough in both their encounters, and she was dominant vs the post stabbing Seles for awhile, even on clay. Pierce is a danger to both Graf and Seles in events she in the zone like the 94 French or 95 Australian Open and capable of taking either out, but she very rarely finds that form, kind of like the female Safin. Martinez was no threat to beat Graf or Seles in a grand slam, but a major contender if she avoided both during the mid 90s. Fernandez you could say that about too. A past her prime Sabatini was still hanging around in the mid 90s but by now she was even getting owned by people like Conchita Martinez, and even in her prime failed all but once to beat Graf or Seles all but once in a slam.

Then in 97 alot of new players emerged and Graf, Seles, Sanchez all went through personal, health, or burnout issues of sorts so there probably would have been some degree of changing of the gaurd anyway, or atleast soon after.

I love Monica but she was not going to completely dominant the whole decade or even beyond, and I dont think that just because I am also a Graf fan. Even with the baggage and disadvantages from the horrible incident she would have fared alot better than she did in atleast the early years of her return if there was ever a chance that was in the cards. There were players by the late 90s that had emerged that were simply bad matchups for her, that was apparently even in her diminished state.

380pistol
04-26-2009, 11:22 PM
I just want to make clear I didnt say I believe Seles would have kept winning everything, even the French Open. I was only saying IF, and this was based on someone elses stance, Seles were really going to rise to such an untouchable level of tennis to win all those French Opens Graf's won- 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, then she surely IMO would also win the 3 players much easier opponents for Seles won in this span- Sanchez 1994, Majoli 1997, Sanchez 1998. I dont believe Monica would have won all those French Open's Graf won though, in fact I believe Graf would have won atleast 2 of those 4 as I said, and as I dont think she would have carried out such an insane level all those years to deny Graf all 4 of hers it is possible someone like Sanchez also wins one. So it all becomes a moot hypothetical from my standpoint anyway. I was only talking under someone elses hypothetical that Monica were to play that insane of tennis that long that even Graf couldnt beat her at the French in any of those years.

When I said "and others" it wasn't referring to you. It's just I don't know (nor do I care) to recall all the names of those clowns who have Seles winning everything under the sun had she not got stabbed.

380pistol
04-26-2009, 11:28 PM
I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

I agree Graf benefitted from the stabbing. I've said it affected both Graf and Seles, and it did so in different ways.

The issue I have is mainly 3 things.....

1) As you said if not for the stabbing was Seles really going to win everything under the sun until some see fit?
2) Are we to assume that she is going to beat Graf every time they meet if not for the stabbing?
3) What about Steffi's issues, injuries, slams she missed etc. that don't get considered?

Could Monica have been the greatest female ever?? Maybe, I doubt it cuz I struggle to see her with a Wimbledon crown, but would she have finishe with more than 9 slams?? Of course. It would have great rivalry no question, and Monica would have accomplished more if not for the stabbing, some at the expense of Steffi. But let's not hand Seles the sun, the moon and the stats as some around here are doing.

thalivest
04-26-2009, 11:38 PM
I actually meant to vote for Evert and clicked on Graf by accident. Anyway the poll options were put in the exact same order I see these women as greatest clay courters ever in:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Lenglen
5. Connolly
6. Seles
7. Henin

Would be my 7 greatest clay courters in order. I actually sort of have a feeling if Graf and Evert were in their primes together Graf might have ended up with the winning head to head over Evert on clay, but of course that alone cant be the only determinent to who is the greatest clay courter ever even if that turned out true. Also it isnt a fact of any kind, just a guess or feeling of mine. Based on the combination of consistency, longevity, and dominance on the surface Evert is the clear #1 regardless on speculation how she might have fared vs some of them in their hypothetical mutual primes. I also have a feeling Connolly or Seles in their primes might have taken any of the others on clay in their primes, but again that is just a guess (well we actually saw some truth to that with Seles vs Graf). What kind of longevity or consistency they would have shown on clay over the long haul was never able to be seen.

I think Court is very underrated on clay. She won 5 French Opens during an era of alot of high quality clay courters like Ann Jones, Richey, Lesley Turner, and at the very end a young Goolagong and Evert. I am not sure how to rank Lenglen on clay. She was unbeatable on clay but faced no real competition, and even her usual main opponents who had no chance of beating her anyway were kept out of some of the closed French Opens as it was. She would have still beaten them of course but it made her already light competition even less than it already was.

I rate Henin as the bottom of the greats since her dominance while impressive was still less than the ones above her, her longevity wasnt amazing with the early retirement, her consistency is even suspect with the two years she didnt win during her clay court reign being horrible early round losses in 2002 and 2004, and her competition was very poor. The only tough competition on clay she ever faced was a prime Serena for a year or a two, and had to resort to trickery in her win over prime Serena at the French after her overrated mental toughness came into play with some mid match choking which cost her an early lead. I would add Clijsters except for her noted Henin-phobia and slam final/semi-phobia. Still with 4 French Opens in 5 years I still felt she deserved to be on the list, just at the bottom of it as the 7th greatest clay courter ever.

CEvertFan
04-26-2009, 11:41 PM
Any of these polls are suspect. Henin has 6 votes as the best clay court player ever. *Shakes head*

thalivest
04-26-2009, 11:43 PM
Any of these polls are suspect. Henin has 6 votes as the best clay court player ever. *Shakes head*

Like I said for me she is the 7th greatest clay courter ever, and even that is a borderline call for me. To me she would have fared poorly vs any of the other 6 women I listed above her on clay. They are all too powerful, too consistent, too athletic (minus Seles in this category), and too tough mentally (the most overrated part of Henin's game) for Henin even on clay. I actually listed her in the poll where I did as I put the poll in the order I would rank them in. I would not have included her at all and just included the other 6, if she wasnt so "recent" and my knowing people around here tend to be partial to more "recent" people.

hoodjem
04-27-2009, 03:24 AM
Sure start with typos and spelling correction of an ESL speaker, when you have no more arguments. Typical.

You can troll all you want, but it still does not change the fact that 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles and that Graf would never be considerer anything GOAT if there was no stabbing. Or stubbing if you prefer.
Sorry if it appeared that I was picking on you. It seemed appropriate to inject a little attempt at levity into a contentious and heated thread.

Please proofread before posting. I apologize.

I appreciate your crusade against the stabbing of tennis players. I do not condone what happened to Monica Seles. That said, I must base my opinions on the actual record books. Maybe the "1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles," but alas she did not win them.

Maybe she would have won them, if she had not been stabbed. Sorry.

pmerk34
04-27-2009, 03:29 PM
One can't automatically give every major to Seles after the '93 AO. That's just silly. Would Graf have won less then her 22 majors if Seles had never been stabbed? Probably. Would Seles have won EVERY major until she was past her prime? I seriously don't think so, especially on fast grass or fast hardcourts. Graf was just too good of a player to make that even remotely plausible. What would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed was that the Graf/Seles rivalry would have really come into it's own and blossomed, which is really the thing I would have most liked to have seen.

For the record I don't think Seles would have broken Evert's record 7 French Opens even if she hadn't been stabbed. Even the great Graf couldn't do it, with the absence of Seles, although she's come the closest out of anyone since 1986.

All these woulda coulda shoulda threads are becoming a bit tiresome. Everyone has different opinions and are entitled to express them but there is also a lack of respect for opinions that differ from their own.

No one is automatically giving Seles EVERY major after the '93 AO but she sure as heck would have won some of the one Steffi Collected without her.


And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

CEvertFan
04-27-2009, 07:42 PM
No one is automatically giving Seles EVERY major after the '93 AO but she sure as heck would have won some of the one Steffi Collected without her.


And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

I didn't mean specifically you but there have been more than a few people who have said that Seles would have won everything had it not been for the stabbing.

Also, if you read my entire post I did say that Graf would have won less majors had Seles not been stabbed.

LDVTennis
04-27-2009, 11:10 PM
And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

Graf did get better. Steffi didn't think '88 and '89 were her peak years. She thought she was a much better player in '95 and '96. And, she was.

With those grips and such limited athleticism, Seles was not going to get much better. Do you honestly believe we were going to see her serve and volley on grass by 1996?

From 1991 to 1993, Seles dominated the tour. She did not dominate Steffi Graf. Graf had a winning record against Seles while Seles was No. 1.

Seles was not the clear No. 1. Steffi had a chance to overtake Seles in the rankings by the time of the French Open in 1993. Had she won the French, Steffi would most definitely have been the No. 1 player in the world again.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 04:19 AM
Graf did get better. Steffi didn't think '88 and '89 were her peak years. She thought she was a much better player in '95 and '96. And, she was.

With those grips and such limited athleticism, Seles was not going to get much better. Do you honestly believe we were going to see her serve and volley on grass by 1996?

From 1991 to 1993, Seles dominated the tour. She did not dominate Steffi Graf. Graf had a winning record against Seles while Seles was No. 1.

Seles was not the clear No. 1. Steffi had a chance to overtake Seles in the rankings by the time of the French Open in 1993. Had she won the French, Steffi would most definitely have been the No. 1 player in the world again.

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

GŁnter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why GŁnter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

Lionheart392
04-28-2009, 04:44 AM
Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

GŁnter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why GŁnter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

I don't think anyone is denying that Seles would've had a great chance if she played the 1993 FO. However, the fact that she beat Graf in 1992 by the narrowest of margins hardly shows that Seles would have definitely beaten her had they played there in 93. Thus I'm sure no one has a problem with people saying that Monica would have been the favourite for that tournament, but automatically handing it to her on a plate is completely different.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 05:09 AM
I don't think anyone is denying that Seles would've had a great chance if she played the 1993 FO. However, the fact that she beat Graf in 1992 by the narrowest of margins hardly shows that Seles would have definitely beaten her had they played there in 93. Thus I'm sure no one has a problem with people saying that Monica would have been the favorite for that tournament, but automatically handing it to her on a plate is completely different.

Graf wasn't a better clay court player than Seles. But people blindly hand it to her anyway on a silver platter.

Arafel
04-28-2009, 07:20 AM
Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

GŁnter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why GŁnter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

I disagree. I watched clips from their 93 Australian final and what I took from that match is that Steffi dictated the play. I was surprised to see how often Seles was put on the defensive, running side to side, trying to get the ball back. Seles ultimately outsteadied Graf, but Steffi was the agressor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ShyrIomAUc&feature=PlayList&p=4A9BB4ED67946FB5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

Watch this clip.

CEvertFan
04-28-2009, 12:55 PM
I disagree. I watched clips from their 93 Australian final and what I took from that match is that Steffi dictated the play. I was surprised to see how often Seles was put on the defensive, running side to side, trying to get the ball back. Seles ultimately outsteadied Graf, but Steffi was the agressor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ShyrIomAUc&feature=PlayList&p=4A9BB4ED67946FB5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

Watch this clip.

I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

grafrules
04-28-2009, 01:00 PM
I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

I think that is a good accessment. It is probably why Seles and Sanchez were the only two players of her generation to really give Graf problems.

On another note it is a joke Henin had 7 votes. She is a great clay courter but not the greatest ever by any stretch. If she had continued and had surprisingly good longevity (considering all her injury and viral problems) than maybe, but as it is not even close. She doesnt even approach the #s of the top clay courters ever, even facing a very weak clay court field. The Williams were never at their best on clay even in their primes, and the others as far as competition for Henin on clay (in most cases of the non Williams on any surface in fact) forget it.

thetaxman
04-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Graf, for me...

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 01:52 PM
I think that is a good accessment. It is probably why Seles and Sanchez were the only two players of her generation to really give Graf problems.

On another note it is a joke Henin had 7 votes. She is a great clay courter but not the greatest ever by any stretch. If she had continued and had surprisingly good longevity (considering all her injury and viral problems) than maybe, but as it is not even close. She doesnt even approach the #s of the top clay courters ever, even facing a very weak clay court field. The Williams were never at their best on clay even in their primes, and the others as far as competition for Henin on clay (in most cases of the non Williams on any surface in fact) forget it.

No Navratilova on the list either...

BTURNER
04-28-2009, 01:54 PM
"Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though."

Well, Sanchez is the only human I saw do it that way successfully because she was the only human quick enough and having the defensive skills and depth to get away with it and it only worked when Graf was off her A game. I give Sanchez barrels of credit but I sure wouldn't recommend others try it. Coetzer came close to succeeding too. Sanchez was the very best defensive baseliner I ever saw. incredible gets and defensive lobs/ chop forehands each within a foot of the baseline. One lob, two lobs, four lobs all perfectly placed despite her desperate straights, until that error came.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 01:56 PM
I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

This quote sums it all up for me

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

thalivest
04-28-2009, 03:06 PM
Now even quoting Mary Carillo of all people to try and prove your baseless arguments. You Selestials are something else (well good comedy value for one thing).

thalivest
04-28-2009, 03:10 PM
No Navratilova on the list either...

Yeah since a 2 time French Open winner really belongs on a poll for greatest clay courter ever, LOL!
I guess Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, and Doris Hart should have also been on the poll too then. Well before Martina actually since those fellow 2 time French Open winners even showed slightly more consistency and longevity on clay than Martina did.

flying24
04-28-2009, 03:27 PM
No Navratilova on the list either...

Probably because there wasnt 20 poll options allowed. Which is the only way she would merit an inclusion.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 03:51 PM
Yeah since a 2 time French Open winner really belongs on a poll for greatest clay courter ever, LOL!
I guess Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, and Doris Hart should have also been on the poll too then. Well before Martina actually since those fellow 2 time French Open winners even showed slightly more consistency and longevity on clay than Martina did.

You are a waste of posting space. Get a life.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 03:52 PM
Now even quoting Mary Carillo of all people to try and prove your baseless arguments. You Selestials are something else (well good comedy value for one thing).

Now you can go back to Steffi worship. Tell us again about all the hype surrounding James Blake. You're a winner.

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Probably because there wasnt 20 poll options allowed. Which is the only way she would merit an inclusion.

Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

thalivest
04-28-2009, 04:12 PM
You are a waste of posting space. Get a life.

Talking to yourself again. That is a common habit for the mentally ******** such as yourself, but just a friendly hint, it is best to do it in your bedroom, or your cubicle at the psych ward you surely reside at rather than on a public forum on a computer. Thanks. :)

CEvertFan
04-28-2009, 04:16 PM
"Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though."

Well, Sanchez is the only human I saw do it that way successfully because she was the only human quick enough and having the defensive skills and depth to get away with it and it only worked when Graf was off her A game. I give Sanchez barrels of credit but I sure wouldn't recommend others try it. Coetzer came close to succeeding too. Sanchez was the very best defensive baseliner I ever saw. incredible gets and defensive lobs/ chop forehands each within a foot of the baseline. One lob, two lobs, four lobs all perfectly placed despite her desperate straights, until that error came.


LOL I never said it was an easy thing to do, or that it worked for Sanchez-Vicario all the time but it was amazing to watch when it did. Like you said, Arantxa was the best defensive baseliner I ever saw and almost as fast as Graf and she would get to balls you never thought she would. Incredible gets from the spunky Spaniard.

egn
04-28-2009, 04:17 PM
Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 04:21 PM
Talking to yourself again. That is a common habit for the mentally ******** such as yourself, but just a friendly hint, it is best to do it in your bedroom, or your cubicle at the psych ward you surely reside at rather than on a public forum on a computer. Thanks. :)

You are such a loser. Post something meaningful again - oh wait you never have. Tell us again how much hype Blake gets in America.

CEvertFan
04-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

I agree Court > Navratilova on clay, even taking into account who she lost to in those RU finishes at the FO.

flying24
04-28-2009, 04:28 PM
Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

Get real. Court won 5 French Opens and beat Evert in a French Open final at 31 years old. If you wish you could do a hypothetical Navratilova would have won 5 French Opens without Evert. However the 1975 would have been a complete joke in a nothing field in a year the French wasnt important with any people who were likely to beat her on clay or any surface at that point in time (eg-Goolagong) not there. The clay court field Martina would have been left facing without Evert around would have been a joke and nowhere near what Court faced. Court faced Nancy Richey, Mario Bueno, Lesley Turner (clay court specialist), and Ann Jones (clay courter who was still good enough to win Wimbledon) at the French over the years. Martina only would have faced Mandlikova and a young Graf for a year or two.

Martina had a relatively short period of near prime play which lasted only about 6 years and during it she still managed to lose to both Sylvia Hanika and Kathy Horvath at the French Open. Court with a 13 year period of near prime play only had one such embarassing loss at the French in 1971. After 1975 good performances vs a depleted clay court field Martina had a giant hole of 7 years she did nothing on clay, and even avoided playing tournaments on it, until 1982.

As for Henin, she retires at 25 and still wins double the French Opens Martina did. That is all that needs to be said.

flying24
04-28-2009, 04:34 PM
This quote sums it all up for me

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

Mary Carillo saying something should already serve as ample reason to render it void. If you trusted her wisdom Venus and Serena would be playing in the French Open final every year, Coria beating an old Agassi on clay would be the equivalent to Chris Lewis having beaten John McEnroe in a Wimbledon final, and Mirijana Lucic was going to be the more likely next phenom of tennis over Hingis, Venus, and Serena.

For the record here are Graf's head to heads with non-Seles opponents from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, from mid May 1990 to mid May 1993, and from June 1993-end of 1996:

Graf vs Sabatini: 15-3 from start of 1997 to mid May 1990, 6-8 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 5-0 vs Sabatini from mid May 1993-end of 1996

Graf vs Novotna: 7-0 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 9-3 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 10-1 from mid May 1993 to end of 1996. Graf's only loss ever Nototna other than the THREE 1991-1992 losses was by retiring after the first set due to injury in a match.

Graf vs Sanchez: 6-1 start of 1989 to mid May 1990, 13-4 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 8-3 from mid May 1993-end of 1996.

Graf vs Navratlova: 6-2 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 1-2 vs mid May 1990-mid May 1993.

Wow isnt it amazing how Sabatini and Novotna were all mysteriously playing so much better during the early 90s than they would anytime before or after. I mean they had to in order to be way more successful vs a Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s, who supposably would not improve any further as well. This despite that Novotna began having her best results by far in the mid to late 90s to boot. Isnt it also truly amazing how Martina suddenly began doing alot better vs Graf in her mid 30s than she had vs even a teenaged Graf when Martina was alot younger.

To put some things into perspective Novotna had the best accomplishments of her whole career in 1998 and yet still went 0-2 vs a Graf who was so injured that season she only played 2 of the 4 slams and had losses to Serna Appelmans, Kournikova, Sugiyama, in limited tournament play. She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking. So despite that Jana lost all 20 of their matches that were not in the mid 1990-mid 1993 time span, and while having the best years of her career at the very end of the decade still went 0-3 vs an injured Graf who was losing to journeywomen, Jana still amazingly managed 3 wins vs a Graf "playing better than ever before" during the early 90s. Fascinating indeed.

Also incredible how Navratilova from age 30-32 fared much worse vs Graf in the late 80s than Navratilova from ages 34-36 would fare vs the Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s. That must have been some amazing transfusion of energy the aging Martina got, like something you see in a Sci Fi film perhaps Even more amazing Martina even while still in her prime in 1986 and 1987 would have a worse W-L ratio vs a 16 and 17 year old Graf than Martina aged 34-36 would have vs a Graf "playing better than ever".

The one exception to all this is Sanchez Vicario who mantained a quite similar head to head in the early to mid 90s. However one must delve a little deeper. From mid 1990 to mid 1993 Sanchez beat Graf in straight sets on 3 different occasions. After mid 1993 or before mid 1990 Sanchez would never win a match with Graf in straight sets. One of those straight set wins included a 6-2, 6-0 thumping for Sanchez Vicario, while the best she would fare in any other time period vs Graf would be winning 6-4 in the 3rd set. Sanchez also never beat a healthy Graf on a non-clay surface any other span other than mid 1990 to mid 1993 (Graf had a serious back injury aggravated while leading midway through the 1994 Canadian and U.S Open finals). Yet in 1992 and early 1993 she twice beat a fully healthy Graf on hard courts, and in 1992 did so in straight sets, interestingly her only ever straight sets win over Graf on hard courts, something she couldnt even manage on clay at any point outside the mid 1990 to mid 1993 time span.

Monica Seles was certainly not the one that caused Steffi to be struggling so much that she lost before the finals of 9 of the 12 biggest tournaments played in 1991 and 1992. Last I checked Seles was not on court when Graf was losing 6-0, 6-2 to Sanchez Vicario in a French Open semifinal, losing to Zina Garrison at Wimbledon, losing to Jana Novotna on slow hard courts at the Australian Open, lost to a 34 year old Navratilova in a U.S Open semifinal, lost in straight sets to Sanchez on fast hard courts in a U.S Open quarterfinal. You will have to enlighten me further to how Seles was the one that caused Graf to be losing at any of these tournaments in such embarassing manners.

Anyway it looks like there are stats that support a theory that Graf indeed was NOT playing particularly well at all for her standards those 3 years, let alone "better than ever", at a level higher than ever before and which she would improve no further on either (according to many of your recent comments). You counter that by having Mary Carillo on your side. Errr ok. :)

LDVTennis
04-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

GŁnter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why GŁnter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

She didn't hit those angles on every shot. Most of the shots she hit were of the loop variety. She also didn't beat the cover off the ball on every shot. Her matches are on the internet. See the '92 US Open Final. See for yourself. Monica even resorts to moonballing of all people Sanchez-Vicario. What a hoot!

Monica's strategy against Steffi was like everyone else's strategy against Steffi. She directed every ball back to Steffi's backhand to thwart her forehand game. From '90 to 93, this pattern worked against Steffi because Steffi's game had become quite predictable and inconsistent. Look analytically at that 1992 French Open Final. How did Steffi lose most of the points in the first set, with unforced errors or winners against her?

Is that how Steffi played at her first peak in '88 or '89 on clay. No. See her '88 French Final. That's how Steffi played on clay. Not convinced. Look at the best match from her second peak period, the '96 French Final. Still, not convinced. Look at the second to the last match Steffi ever played on clay as a pro, the '99 French Open Semi. What could be a better example? The opponent is Seles. Seles plays the same style of tennis she played in '92. But, does Graf? Not even close.

Why do I feel that you've never even seen that match? Everything you need to know about how Seles played Graf is in that match; so, is everything that Graf had to do beat Seles. Graf never had to outslug Seles to beat her. That wasn't the strategy to beat Seles. The strategy was to play her like Hingis did. Graf's mistake from '90 to '92 against Seles was that she did try to outslug Seles and got conned into making all kind of unforced errors. By '99, Steffi had figured out the con and turned the tables on Seles. Make Seles play the point from all areas of the court, use the slice backhand down the line instead of crosscourt, go inside-in as much as inside out and watch as Seles wilts under the pressure of having to defend the entire court. It worked in '99 and it would have worked in '92.

As to your appeals to Parche, what's that about? You make Parche out to be some kind of Svengali-like figure with vast historical powers of deception. He wasn't that powerful. He stabbed a tennis player, he didn't order the Holocaust. Get a grip!

pmerk34
04-28-2009, 06:20 PM
She didn't hit those angles on every shot. Most of the shots she hit were of the loop variety. She also didn't beat the cover off the ball on every shot. Her matches are on the internet. See the '92 US Open Final. See for yourself. Monica even resorts to moonballing of all people Sanchez-Vicario. What a hoot!

Monica's strategy against Steffi was like everyone else's strategy against Steffi. She directed every ball back to Steffi's backhand to thwart her forehand game. From '90 to 93, this pattern worked against Steffi because Steffi's game had become quite predictable and inconsistent. Look analytically at that 1992 French Open Final. How did Steffi lose most of the points in the first set, with unforced errors or winners against her?

Is that how Steffi played at her first peak in '88 or '89 on clay. No. See her '88 French Final. That's how Steffi played on clay. Not convinced. Look at the best match from her second peak period, the '96 French Final. Still, not convinced. Look at the second to the last match Steffi ever played on clay as a pro, the '99 French Open Semi. What could be a better example? The opponent is Seles. Seles plays the same style of tennis she played in '92. But, does Graf? Not even close.

Why do I feel that you've never even seen that match? Everything you need to know about how Seles played Graf is in that match; so, is everything that Graf had to do beat Seles. Graf never had to outslug Seles to beat her. That wasn't the strategy to beat Seles. The strategy was to play her like Hingis did. Graf's mistake from '90 to '92 against Seles was that she did try to outslug Seles and got conned into making all kind of unforced errors. By '99, Steffi had figured out the con and turned the tables on Seles. Make Seles play the point from all areas of the court, use the slice backhand down the line instead of crosscourt, go inside-in as much as inside out and watch as Seles wilts under the pressure of having to defend the entire court. It worked in '99 and it would have worked in '92.

As to your appeals to Parche, what's that about? You make Parche out to be some kind of Svengali-like figure with vast historical powers of deception. He wasn't that powerful. He stabbed a tennis player, he didn't order the Holocaust. Get a grip!

I disagree entirely with your post. However I respect your opinion.

ttwarrior1
04-28-2009, 06:23 PM
i didnt read the posts, but after not seeing sanchez vicario not on the list i had to say something

anointedone
04-28-2009, 06:23 PM
Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

Anyone (even one of the troll variety) finding any argument to rank Navratilova above Court on clay is only further proof how extremely underrated Court is on this forum.

egn
04-28-2009, 06:30 PM
Mary Carillo saying something should already serve as ample reason to render it void. If you trusted her wisdom Venus and Serena would be playing in the French Open final every year, Coria beating an old Agassi on clay would be the equivalent to Chris Lewis having beaten John McEnroe in a Wimbledon final, and Mirijana Lucic was going to be the more likely next phenom of tennis over Hingis, Venus, and Serena.

For the record here are Graf's head to heads with non-Seles opponents from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, from mid May 1990 to mid May 1993, and from June 1993-end of 1996:

Graf vs Sabatini: 15-3 from start of 1997 to mid May 1990, 6-8 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 5-0 vs Sabatini from mid May 1993-end of 1996

Graf vs Novotna: 7-0 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 9-3 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 10-1 from mid May 1993 to end of 1996. Graf's only loss ever Nototna other than the THREE 1991-1992 losses was by retiring after the first set due to injury in a match.

Graf vs Sanchez: 6-1 start of 1989 to mid May 1990, 13-4 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 8-3 from mid May 1993-end of 1996.

Graf vs Navratlova: 6-2 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 1-2 vs mid May 1990-mid May 1993.

Wow isnt it amazing how Sabatini and Novotna were all mysteriously playing so much better during the early 90s than they would anytime before or after. I mean they had to in order to be way more successful vs a Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s, who supposably would not improve any further as well. This despite that Novotna began having her best results by far in the mid to late 90s to boot. Isnt it also truly amazing how Martina suddenly began doing alot better vs Graf in her mid 30s than she had vs even a teenaged Graf when Martina was alot younger.

To put some things into perspective Novotna had the best accomplishments of her whole career in 1998 and yet still went 0-2 vs a Graf who was so injured that season she only played 2 of the 4 slams and had losses to Serna Appelmans, Kournikova, Sugiyama, in limited tournament play. She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking. So despite that Jana lost all 20 of their matches that were not in the mid 1990-mid 1993 time span, and while having the best years of her career at the very end of the decade still went 0-3 vs an injured Graf who was losing to journeywomen, Jana still amazingly managed 3 wins vs a Graf "playing better than ever before" during the early 90s. Fascinating indeed.

Also incredible how Navratilova from age 30-32 fared much worse vs Graf in the late 80s than Navratilova from ages 34-36 would fare vs the Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s. That must have been some amazing transfusion of energy the aging Martina got, like something you see in a Sci Fi film perhaps Even more amazing Martina even while still in her prime in 1986 and 1987 would have a worse W-L ratio vs a 16 and 17 year old Graf than Martina aged 34-36 would have vs a Graf "playing better than ever".

The one exception to all this is Sanchez Vicario who mantained a quite similar head to head in the early to mid 90s. However one must delve a little deeper. From mid 1990 to mid 1993 Sanchez beat Graf in straight sets on 3 different occasions. After mid 1993 or before mid 1990 Sanchez would never win a match with Graf in straight sets. One of those straight set wins included a 6-2, 6-0 thumping for Sanchez Vicario, while the best she would fare in any other time period vs Graf would be winning 6-4 in the 3rd set. Sanchez also never beat a healthy Graf on a non-clay surface any other span other than mid 1990 to mid 1993 (Graf had a serious back injury aggravated while leading midway through the 1994 Canadian and U.S Open finals). Yet in 1992 and early 1993 she twice beat a fully healthy Graf on hard courts, and in 1992 did so in straight sets, interestingly her only ever straight sets win over Graf on hard courts, something she couldnt even manage on clay at any point outside the mid 1990 to mid 1993 time span.

Monica Seles was certainly not the one that caused Steffi to be struggling so much that she lost before the finals of 9 of the 12 biggest tournaments played in 1991 and 1992. Last I checked Seles was not on court when Graf was losing 6-0, 6-2 to Sanchez Vicario in a French Open semifinal, losing to Zina Garrison at Wimbledon, losing to Jana Novotna on slow hard courts at the Australian Open, lost to a 34 year old Navratilova in a U.S Open semifinal, lost in straight sets to Sanchez on fast hard courts in a U.S Open quarterfinal. You will have to enlighten me further to how Seles was the one that caused Graf to be losing at any of these tournaments in such embarassing manners.

Anyway it looks like there are stats that support a theory that Graf indeed was NOT playing particularly well at all for her standards those 3 years, let alone "better than ever", at a level higher than ever before and which she would improve no further on either (according to many of your recent comments). You counter that by having Mary Carillo on your side. Errr ok. :)

She playing "better than ever" for everyone else.

Brilliant post flying Seles was doing the least damage to Graf over that period. The rest of the field was more of a threat to her.

LDVTennis
04-28-2009, 06:52 PM
She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking.

I was at this match (IW 99). It took about 30 minutes to play. It went something like this when Steffi was serving --- serve, return, forehand winner. When Jana was serving, it went something like this --- serve/forehand return winner or serve, return, slice to Steffi's backhand, inside-out/inside-in forehand winner.

I never thought I'd see Steffi play again like she did from '88 to '89. It was a different Steffi, not necessarily a better Steffi. The '95 to '96 Steffi is better; the '88 and '89 Steffi was just a phenomenon. By the French Open that year, Steffi was back playing her '96-style of tennis. So, it's almost like she revisted her entire career that year from IW in March to the French Open in May/June.

Funny story about that match. As I said, it took only 30 minutes to play. So, more people were waiting to file into the stadium when it ended than were filing out of the stadium. It was the last match of the day session and the tournament staff cleared the stadium quite quickly.

People had lingered because Steffi hadn't left the court. As soon as the stadium was cleared, she began practicing, hitting the ball with Heinz, her coach. So, you have this huge crowd, a mixture of day and night session patrons crowding the upper pavilion alleys which in the Grand Champion days gave you a view onto the court. Numerous people asked if they could watch her practice. The answer was no. One man asked, How much?, meaning how much to watch her practice. The staffperson smiled and said, No.

flying24
04-28-2009, 06:56 PM
She playing "better than ever" for everyone else.

Brilliant post flying Seles was doing the least damage to Graf over that period. The rest of the field was more of a threat to her.

Thank you. Dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting by any means Graf was just going to start walking all over Monica. Monica is of course a great player in her own right and would remain a tough opponent for Graf.

However the idea that anyone would say those few years Graf was playing "better than ever" or Graf's play did not improve from the point Seles was stabbed is simply nonsense. As someone who followed Graf's career closely such a statement made by Carillo around the time it was made was completely off base with reality. More than anything else it simply exposed again what a bimbo of the booth Carillo can be sometimes. I often want to put the TV on moot whenever she is in the booth even today (she is getting worse as the years goes by if anything). If she wasnt Johnny Mac's old buddy and doubles partner nobody would have ever heard of her.

As you said it was alot of players combining to overthrow Graf and cause her much poorer results. It was Seles herself specificaly as the one difference. Many of those players were people definitely not playing the best tennis of their whole careers either- Sanchez Vicario, Navratilova, Novotna, let alone by the huge margin they would need to be to all be faring far better than ever vs a supposably "better than ever" Graf.

flying24
04-28-2009, 07:02 PM
I was at this match (IW 99). It took about 30 minutes to play. It went something like this when Steffi was serving --- serve, return, forehand winner. When Jana was serving, it went something like this --- serve/forehand return winner or serve, return, slice to Steffi's backhand, inside-out/inside-in forehand winner.

I never thought I'd see Steffi play again like she did from '88 to '89. It was a different Steffi, not necessarily a better Steffi. The '95 to '96 Steffi is better; the '88 and '89 Steffi was just a phenomenon. By the French Open that year, Steffi was back playing her '96-style of tennis. So, it's almost like she revisted her entire career that year from IW in March to the French Open in May/June.

Funny story about that match. As I said, it took only 30 minutes to play. So, more people were waiting to file into the stadium when it ended than were filing out of the stadium. It was the last match of the day session and the tournament staff cleared the stadium quite quickly.

People had lingered because Steffi hadn't left the court. As soon as the stadium was cleared, she began practicing, hitting the ball with Heinz, her coach. So, you have this huge crowd, a mixture of day and night session patrons crowding the upper pavilion alleys which in the Grand Champion days gave you a view onto the court. Numerous people asked if they could watch her practice. The answer was no. One man asked, How much?, meaning how much to watch her practice. The staffperson smiled and said, No.

Thanks for your recounts of the match. It sounds like she got that bug to play her former favorite playing style which was so exciting to watch, but as you say many times with age and wisdom she transformed to a more measured but even more effective playing style. It must have felt good for her though just to pull up something from the old files though, even if only for that match. :)

The story of the practice session at the end is funny. Thanks for sharing.

BTURNER
04-28-2009, 07:03 PM
Do remeber whenever you have a champion loose their randking, It does improve the confidence of the rest of the top five that she is 'beatable' what's more important is now she feels beatable. the Seles leap over Graf had an indirect affect on all those other results by making Graf's mind vulnerable, unitl she regained her equilibrium. Happened to Navratilova too when Graf took over for her.

flying24
04-28-2009, 07:06 PM
Do remeber whenever you have a champion loose their randking, It does improve the confidence of the rest of the top five that she is 'beatable' what's more important is now she feels beatable. the Seles leap over Graf had an indirect affect on all those other results by making Graf's mind vulnerable, unitl she regained her equilibrium. Happened to Navratilova too when Graf took over for her.

That is true as well, although when Navratilova was overtaken by Graf she was starting to get older anyway and for that reason it was understandable others in the field would start doing better vs her.

As well the year Seles overtook Graf was 1991 and in that year Graf won her only 2 meetings with Seles. Seles did not even have to play Graf in any of the 3 slams she won, so I see nothing directly Seles did to shatter Graf's aura that year. Selse was not firmly in the #1 spot until September of 1991. She first took it from Graf in March, and she and Graf exchanged it back and forth until after the U.S Open. Graf's poorer performances vs other players began as early as mid 1990 when she lost to Garrison at Wimbledon, began a long losing streak to Sabatini in late 1990, and lost to a pre-prime Novotna on slow hard courts in the 91 AO quarters while Graf was still ranked #1 and before Seles had won any slams apart from the French.

ttwarrior1
04-28-2009, 10:40 PM
still no love for vicario, the whole thing should be deleted and her named added

thalivest
04-28-2009, 10:43 PM
still no love for vicario, the whole thing should be deleted and her named added

I respect Sanchez Vicario and believe she is a great player and a great clay courter. However the reason I did not include her name was an obvious one. She was dominated by both Steffi Graf and Monica Seles on the surface, two of her contemporaries. Seles dominated her in head to head on the surface even though they won the same # of French Opens. Seles's were also 3 in a row. Graf dominated Sanchez in that she won twice the # of French Opens. When there were 2 contemporaries of hers who clearly surpass her on clay she cant even seriously be considered for the best ever tag on the surface. Atleast when women are from different eras or their story is incomplete by circumstance (eg- Graf vs Seles) one can speculate to who is greater on the surface. One cannot speculate to Sanchez possibly being the greatest ever on clay when she was clearly only the 3rd best amongst her own generation on clay.

DMan
05-01-2009, 10:02 PM
Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

GŁnter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why GŁnter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

Yes Seles won 3 of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf. But it wasn't quite the same as Nadal winning 3 of 4 vs Federer. Nadal has now beaten Federer on clay, grass, and hard courts. He clearly ahs the upper hand in their H2H. And he also won 3 of 4 Slam finals in a period of only a year and a half.

Seles' 3 Slam final round victories were over a 2 -1/2 year period. I mention this because Selestials like to believe that Mons "dominated" Steffi for "so long." Like it was forever and ever.

I also disagree that Seles would have been a huge favorite at the 1993 French. For one thing, Seles was off the tour for 2+ months in early spring with her "mystery virus". Her father was diagnosed with cancer during that time as well. And Monica also had the pressure of needing to win the French, or at least outperform Steffi, in order to keep her #1 ranking. The pressure was on Monica, not Steffi.

Also, it's good to see Henin rank so high on this list. If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times. Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players. Her 5 French titles are impressive on a numbers level, but not an true clay corut ability.

Henin would be the only one to truly threaten a Graf or Evert on clay.

thalivest
05-01-2009, 10:04 PM
If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times.

Please tell me you are joking here.

Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players.

So Nancy Richey, Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, Maria Bueno, was not an era of top flight clay court players?

pmerk34
05-02-2009, 04:54 AM
Yes Seles won 3 of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf. But it wasn't quite the same as Nadal winning 3 of 4 vs Federer. Nadal has now beaten Federer on clay, grass, and hard courts. He clearly ahs the upper hand in their H2H. And he also won 3 of 4 Slam finals in a period of only a year and a half.

Seles' 3 Slam final round victories were over a 2 -1/2 year period. I mention this because Selestials like to believe that Mons "dominated" Steffi for "so long." Like it was forever and ever.

I also disagree that Seles would have been a huge favorite at the 1993 French. For one thing, Seles was off the tour for 2+ months in early spring with her "mystery virus". Her father was diagnosed with cancer during that time as well. And Monica also had the pressure of needing to win the French, or at least outperform Steffi, in order to keep her #1 ranking. The pressure was on Monica, not Steffi.

Also, it's good to see Henin rank so high on this list. If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times. Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players. Her 5 French titles are impressive on a numbers level, but not an true clay corut ability.

Henin would be the only one to truly threaten a Graf or Evert on clay.

Yes, it's pure coincidence that Graf in 1993 through Jan of 1994 won The French Open which she had not won since 1988, The US Open which she had not won since '89 and then the Aussie which she had not won since 1990.

The fact that Monica wasn't there had NOTHING to do with it right?

flying24
05-02-2009, 06:13 AM
Yes, it's pure coincidence that Graf in 1993 through Jan of 1994 won The French Open which she had not won since 1988, The US Open which she had not won since '89 and then the Aussie which she had not won since 1990.

The fact that Monica wasn't there had NOTHING to do with it right?

The U.S Open definitely nothing to do with Monica. Monica is 0-7 lifetime vs Graf on faster surfaces. Monica definitely had nothing to do with Graf's failure to win a U.S Open since 1989. Graf in 1990 lost to Sabatini, 1991 lost to Navratilova, 1992 lost to Sanchez.

The French more likely so, but winning 4 in a row at the French Open would not be an easy task even for Monica.

The Australian Open again less so. Graf lost a 3 set final to Monica in 93 but didnt even play in 92 and in 91 was in such poor form she lost to Novotna on a slow hard court. Graf was in some of her best form ever at the 94 Australian Open final, infinitely better than 92 (eg- 93 she loses 9 games to Sanchez, 94 she loses only 2) and no doubt would have been able to beat Monica in the final that particular year. Most years Seles would handle Graf on rebound ace but Graf was injured and hardly ever played the event again so it doesnt matter.

Lionheart392
05-05-2009, 11:59 AM
The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things? :confused:

thalivest
05-05-2009, 12:41 PM
The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things? :confused:

Many people who have probably only seen Henin play often of those three. Also many who have even seen all 3 not really factoring in the differences that come with playing with a wood racquet, in an earlier time frame, etc...

hoodjem
05-05-2009, 12:47 PM
Many people who have probably only seen Henin play often of those three. Also many who have even seen all 3 not really factoring in the differences that come with playing with a wood racquet, in an earlier time frame, etc...
thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

Arafel
05-05-2009, 01:07 PM
Well, yeah. Look at this poll. 8 people have Henin over Graf and Evert. I mean, choosing Graf over Evert I can understand, even if I don't agree, but Henin? Please!

thalivest
05-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I voted for Graf by accident. I meant to vote for Evert. My personal order of the greatest clay courters ever are actually in the exact order I put them on the poll which means Henin is the 7th greatest womens clay courter ever for me. If she didnt retire who knows, but she did retire which if anything is a possible knock against her mental toughness and staying power. I am a big Henin fan as well and I very much wish she had continued and taken her career to a potentialy much higher place than it is now, but it is what it is. She certainly wasnt as dominant as many of these others were on clay though, nor did she face the toughest clay court field by any stretch. I guess that could and has been argued of some of these others too, but atleast those others achieved more vs it than Henin.

thalivest
05-05-2009, 01:52 PM
thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

Yeah it is so annoying to keep repeatedly hearing these Sampras vs Federer GOAT conversations ad nauseum. "Federer didnt do this, Sampras still the GOAT", "Federer does this he is the GOAT over Sampras." What nonsense. Like you said to many people there must have been no tennis before 1993, as if the sport was invented only 16 years ago per say. As for Nadal, I am a huge Nadal fan, Nadal is probably my favorite player ever. However even I wouldnt rank him any higher than maybe barely in the top 15 all time at this moment depending on what you value, and he could be alot lower than that again depending on what you value in rating careers. Of course he could have many more years ahead of him so time will tell where he arrives at and he has certainly gotten a great head start and got alot of important achievements under his belt for how young he is. However anyone who talks about him in the greatest ever terms on anything but clay right now must think tennis began in 2006 or 2007.

CEvertFan
05-05-2009, 04:46 PM
thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

Oh! Very well said!

CEvertFan
05-05-2009, 04:48 PM
The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things? :confused:

See thalivest's and hoodjem's posts. The perfect reason why.

grafselesfan
05-05-2009, 04:52 PM
Henin was a great clay courter but vs a prime Evert or Graf she would be lucky to win 1 times out of 5. She does not have the mental toughness to come close to either in a close match, and since most of their matches on clay would be close (or atleast not many lopsided in Henin's favor) mental toughness would be required often to come out ahead often for her and she doesnt have it. Not to mention she doesnt have the serving, athleticsm, or forehand to match up with Steffi, nor the consistency or smarts to match up with Chris. I doubt she would has the grace or versatility to match up with a prime Lenglen on clay either. Court was too big, strong, imposing, athletic and consistent for Henin, even on clay. Seles and Connolly probably had too much determination and focus, as well as consistent power and accuracy from both wings off the baseline for Henin whose forehand while very good isnt the equal of her backhand. Henin has really been the best clay courter since 2002 and the best player period in the womens game since 2004 when Serena diminished in play, and she is sorely missed amongst the current laughing stock womens field but the clay court GOAT, no.

BTURNER
05-05-2009, 04:58 PM
I cannot believe those stats! Evert at 15%!!! Idiots.

grafrules
05-05-2009, 05:03 PM
The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things? :confused:

Henin only got halfway to owning the French Open titles mark despite only having to face Jankovic, a mostly out of shape Serena, Venus the rather mediocre clay courter, Ivanovic, Kuznetsova the choker, Dementieva, Ivanovic, and Mauresmo the French Open choker. She has never had close to an unbeaten year on clay, losing multiple matches every year on the surface. She was on the verge of going out to Serena in the semis of the 2003 French, Kuznetsova in the 4th round at the 2005 French, and even a way past her prime Martinez in the 1st round of the 2006 French. During her 6 year reign as queen of clay her 2 losses at the French were humiliating ones: some Kapros girl in the 1st round in 2002, and Tatiana Garbin in an early round in 2004. Yet she is the greatest clay courter ever according to most who vote on the WTA website? I guess that shows the kind of people who are still left following womens tennis this day. The remaining quality is even scarier than the rapidly diminishing quantity.

BTURNER
05-05-2009, 05:34 PM
LOL You said it all, but I said it a lot faster. Idiots!

grafselesfan
05-06-2009, 10:25 PM
I like Henin but the greatest clay courter ever, nope. Seles having less votes than her is shocking IMO even with Seles having one less Frenchie. Even if you completely ignore the stabbing the competition Seles achieved her 3 peat against alone is totally different to what Henin won her 4 French Opens against . Facing Graf, Sanchez, Sabatini, Martinez, Fernandez, Maleeva, Capriati, all at their peak at once Seles probably faced the deepest and stronger clay court field EVER to win her 3 straight French Opens. Henin mostly beat up on clowns to win her 4 French Opens. Henin should never rate above Monica on clay.

llama
05-07-2009, 04:31 AM
Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

Seles stabbing is different than any other injury since it was designed and perpetrated on the tennis court and its sole purpose was to make Graf the GOAT. So anyone who blindly insists that Graf is the GOAT in any way, is inadvertently condoning what Parche did and helping him succeed. So they have to be reminded of stabbing and what it did to Graf's and Seles' careers.

Also the fact that you need to resort to personal insults and false language just speaks about you and arguments you are lacking in this discussion.

Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

pmerk34
05-07-2009, 04:51 AM
Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

I predict Seles would have continued to win GS's at Graf's expense. Just like she had been doing up until the stabbing.

llama
05-07-2009, 05:14 AM
I predict Seles would have continued to win GS's at Graf's expense. Just like she had been doing up until the stabbing.

So - are you telling us you're psychic, too?

LDVTennis
05-07-2009, 09:08 AM
So - are you telling us you're psychic, too?

Strangely, a lot of Seles' fans have psychic ability. I think what we need is a federal grant to study this fringe phenomenon. :D

pmerk34
05-07-2009, 09:10 AM
Strangely, a lot of Seles' fans have psychic ability. I think what we need is a federal grant to study this fringe phenomenon. :D

I'm not a Seles fan.

Winners or Errors
05-07-2009, 09:23 AM
Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

Agree with you 100%. Sad that the rivalry was cut short by a wacko. No reason for Graf to stop playing and wait. It does put an asterisk on some of Graf's marks, but she may have been able to solve the Seles riddle had it not happened, so we simply don't know. I think Seles gets her due as a tennis phenom whose potential was destroyed in the stabbing. Certainly, I give her credit for coming back at all. I was not a fan prior to the stabbing, and became one when she returned, so perhaps that is the silver lining. She gained quite a bit of positive support she may otherwise never have had and is perhaps a more rounded person for it...

BTURNER
07-30-2009, 09:14 AM
Why on this thread about clay court majors do so many forget Evert won those 3 us opens on clay barely losing a set, against high caliber fields during the years she did not play the French. She has 10 majors on clay and the highest career win/loss ratio recorded in open tennis. There is no debate left.

BTURNER
07-30-2009, 09:30 AM
those were the years she was unable to play the french because of WTT. Evert never played two clay slams in the same year. Might as well pretend the RG tournament was not played 76,77,78. US OPenm was the de facto clay court slam those three years.

grafselesfan
07-31-2009, 08:19 AM
Why on this thread about clay court majors do so many forget Evert won those 3 us opens on clay barely losing a set, against high caliber fields during the years she did not play the French. She has 10 majors on clay and the highest career win/loss ratio recorded in open tennis. There is no debate left.

That actually is a good way to look at it. Replace the 76-78 French Open results with the 75-77 U.S Open. Only years U.S Open was on clay and had it the best possible fields available at the time, and French Open on the womens side was a farce those years anyway. Even Sue Barker laughed at it after she won the French in 76. Then the new hypothetical becomes the U.S Open those 3 years on fast hard courts which would have been interesting between Evert, Goolagong, King, and to a lesser extent pre-prime Martina, aging Court, and Wade.

pmerk34
07-31-2009, 09:59 AM
That actually is a good way to look at it. Replace the 76-78 French Open results with the 75-77 U.S Open. Only years U.S Open was on clay and had it the best possible fields available at the time, and French Open on the womens side was a farce those years anyway. Even Sue Barker laughed at it after she won the French in 76. Then the new hypothetical becomes the U.S Open those 3 years on fast hard courts which would have been interesting between Evert, Goolagong, King, and to a lesser extent pre-prime Martina, aging Court, and Wade.

No one doubts that evert would have won 10 French opens

ilove.juju
09-25-2009, 01:24 PM
My vote went to Monica Seles. Without the stabbing she would win more French Opens than anyone else and that makes her the greatest clay courter ever IMO. I disagree with gj011 that Graf would not have won more however. I think Graf would have won atleast 2 of her 93, 95, 96, 99 titles since Monica could not win the French every year that decade and there was nobody else that decade who would have stopped her so someone else had to win a couple, and looking at the candidates it has to be Graf.

I agree.

Many people forget that in 1993, Seles had won 3 of the 4 French opens she had played. Graf on the other hand, had only two, the later dating back to 1988. She had lost to either ASV of Monica in the past 4 years and I feel Seles could have won at least another 2 or 3 FO.

drwood
09-25-2009, 01:33 PM
I agree.

Many people forget that in 1993, Seles had won 3 of the 4 French opens she had played. Graf on the other hand, had only two, the later dating back to 1988. She had lost to either ASV of Monica in the past 4 years and I feel Seles could have won at least another 2 or 3 FO.

Definitely not better than Evert. Past-prime Evert beat prime Navratilova in 85 and 86 finals, while past-prime Seles choked in the 98 F against Vicario.

But no question Seles would have been #2 all-time behind Evert w/o the stabbing IMO.

pc1
09-25-2009, 02:09 PM
Helen Wills Moody with four French Championships would have to be considered also. In fact a lot of people compared Evert to her. She was a lot taller than Evert at 5'9" and a bigger serve.

She won four French Championships in five attempts and the loss at the French was a default due to the fact she had emergency appendix surgery in her first French in 1926.