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View Full Version : Qestions re defaulting a line (USTA league)


OrangePower
05-01-2009, 10:41 AM
We have a match this weekend and due to a rash of last minute injuries, we might end up being a man short. So we might have to default a line.

Do we have the choice between defaulting #2 singles or defaulting #3 doubles? We'd rather default the singles so that it doesn't deny an additional person the chance to play.

As far as how to handle the exchange of lineups with the opposing captain: we'd prefer to be up front and list the default on our lineup, rather than pretending that we have someone showing up and then pretending that the person no-showed. But: We are playing at home, and the team we are playing has some history of defaulting lines, especially when playing away. What happens if they are missing players as well? If we've already listed the default on the lineup, and they have not (they have players listed), then do we still forfeit the line even if their player(s) don't show up? Are we better off putting someone's name down on the lineup anyway, knowing that they won't actually be there?

Finally, what happens in terms of the match outcome if both teams default a line? How is the score registered?

seleswannabe
05-01-2009, 10:47 AM
I know the choice to play #2 Singles or #3 Doubles is your. Basically whichever allows you to play the most courts.
As for when you communicate the default, I wait til the last possible minute the night before. That's a tough call with the other team with the "history", but I think you have to in good faith give them that court. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear but I think it's the fair thing to do.

OrangePower
05-01-2009, 11:11 AM
I know the choice to play #2 Singles or #3 Doubles is your. Basically whichever allows you to play the most courts.
As for when you communicate the default, I wait til the last possible minute the night before. That's a tough call with the other team with the "history", but I think you have to in good faith give them that court. Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear but I think it's the fair thing to do.

Yes our captain is going to let them know today so that their #2 singles player doesn't end up traveling to our courts only to find that he has no match.

And in this case it doesn't actually matter much since they are a very weak team and we should still easily win the remaining 4 lines.

But I was just curious as to what happens if both teams have players missing. What the sequence of events is and how the outcome is recorded.

Cindysphinx
05-01-2009, 12:45 PM
Here, the matter is covered under the local rules.

The choice of what to forfeit is up to you, of course, so long as you forfeit the lowest court.

Regarding when to notify the opponent, the rule is that you don't have to give them any notice. You can fill out your line-up with a player name knowing full well the person isn't coming, and you can smirk when you hand it to the opposing captain. The opponent must be present to claim the defaulted line unless the captains have agreed otherwise in advance.

Courtesy requires that you not make people drive to a match when you can save them the trouble, so the more scrupulous captains notify the opponents well ahead of time. Not too far ahead of time, though, because once you proffer a default you cannot take it back unless the other captain consents.

Because we play indoors, there are always court fees involved. If you notify the other captain ahead of time that you're defaulting, she may cut you a break and not require that you reimburse her for the wasted court. If you default at the last minute, some captains will not cut you this break (I fall into that category).

I believe that if both teams have players missing, then you just look at the scorecard and see if the team match can be contested. If not -- say because you are defaulting both singles and they are defaulting all three doubles -- then it goes down as a win for them, I think. Depending on how it all goes, it could also be a double default. Most sane captains would in that case amend their respective line-ups so that some sort of match can be contested.

I had a totally weird default situation last year in 6.5 combo. I am driving along and I get a call about 2 hours before the match. I don't recognize the number and pull over. It is the league coordinator. He tells me that the opposing captain doesn't have enough players and is going to default all three courts.

OK, I need to tell six players not to go to the match, which is very far away. I start dialing there by the side of the road. I had some numbers on me and reached four players. Then I started driving home to get the other two numbers. I get home and call them. It is the league coordinator. Opposing captain made a mistake. She really has 4 players and can contest the match after all. League coordinator told me it was up to me whether to accept the attempt to withdraw the default.

I told him no, we wouldn't accept. Was it because I was being cagey or trying to grab a cheap win? No, it was because I couldn't be sure whether I could get these six players after I had canceled with them. Some have small children, so sitters and husbands could have been involved, and of course if we wound up shorthanded then we'd be defaulting courts.

It is a shame this inexperienced captain panicked and waved the white flag prematurely, but I didn't think I could jerk my players around to try to fix it. We offered to play a rescheduled match, but that is very difficult to arrange and never happened.

OrangePower
05-01-2009, 01:22 PM
Thanks Cindy, good info.

I believe that if both teams have players missing, then you just look at the scorecard and see if the team match can be contested.

So what happens then? Say both teams have just 1 singles but all 3 doubles lines available. The match can still be contested, but how are results recorded for the default? Is there such a thing as a double-default in tennislink?

Atown
05-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Do we have the choice between defaulting #2 singles or defaulting #3 doubles? We'd rather default the singles so that it doesn't deny an additional person the chance to play.

Usually opposing captains are agreeable on which court will be defaulted. As far as winning the match is concerned, a court is a court. Plus an additional one of their players would also be denied the chance to play were the doubles court to be defaulted.

I could see an issue arise should a team be short two players as the issue would then be defaulting one doubles court verses both singles courts. In my experience most captains will still be agreeable to having a doubles court be defaulted, however I'm sure there are captains out there who will insist (in my opinion incorrectly) that both singles court should be defaulted.

The basis of my opinion is that the default effectively does not occur until the lineups are exchanged, and it is the defaulting captain's choice where to place the default on his or her lineup sheet.

Cindysphinx's comment about defaulting the lowest court makes sense, however unless such is expressly addressed in a section's local rules I would still think that the ultimate decision on which specific court to default is up to the defaulting captain.

Finally, what happens in terms of the match outcome if both teams default a line? How is the score registered?

Say both teams have just 1 singles but all 3 doubles lines available. The match can still be contested, but how are results recorded for the default? Is there such a thing as a double-default in tennislink?

I would check the section's local rules. If the issue is not addressed I'd check with the Local League Coordinator.

For Adult Leagues, the applicable rule for all championships after local league competition is USTA League Tennis Regulation 3.03K which states in relevant part:
"In the event of a default by both players/doubles teams, both sides will be given a 0-6, 0-6 loss and neither receives credit for a win. If a double default results in a tie, the tiebreak procedure shall be the same as 3.03I Procedures In the Event of a Tie in order to determine a winner of that team match."

Regulations 3.03K & I can both be found in Page 17 of the linked document: http://www.usta.com/sitecore/content/USTA/Global/Active/Custom%20Pages/Leagues/~/media/E940641CDEEB429DB6B448ACCE1E04B6.ashx

Adult League Regulation 3.03K also is also applicable to Senior Leagues. Similar rules are in place for Mixed Doubles Leagues (Regulation 5.03K) and for Super Senior Leagues (Regulation 6.03K).

Casey10s
05-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Here, the matter is covered under the local rules.

The choice of what to forfeit is up to you, of course, so long as you forfeit the lowest court.

Regarding when to notify the opponent, the rule is that you don't have to give them any notice. You can fill out your line-up with a player name knowing full well the person isn't coming, and you can smirk when you hand it to the opposing captain. The opponent must be present to claim the defaulted line unless the captains have agreed otherwise in advance.

Courtesy requires that you not make people drive to a match when you can save them the trouble, so the more scrupulous captains notify the opponents well ahead of time. Not too far ahead of time, though, because once you proffer a default you cannot take it back unless the other captain consents.

Because we play indoors, there are always court fees involved. If you notify the other captain ahead of time that you're defaulting, she may cut you a break and not require that you reimburse her for the wasted court. If you default at the last minute, some captains will not cut you this break (I fall into that category).

I believe that if both teams have players missing, then you just look at the scorecard and see if the team match can be contested. If not -- say because you are defaulting both singles and they are defaulting all three doubles -- then it goes down as a win for them, I think. Depending on how it all goes, it could also be a double default. Most sane captains would in that case amend their respective line-ups so that some sort of match can be contested.

I had a totally weird default situation last year in 6.5 combo. I am driving along and I get a call about 2 hours before the match. I don't recognize the number and pull over. It is the league coordinator. He tells me that the opposing captain doesn't have enough players and is going to default all three courts.

OK, I need to tell six players not to go to the match, which is very far away. I start dialing there by the side of the road. I had some numbers on me and reached four players. Then I started driving home to get the other two numbers. I get home and call them. It is the league coordinator. Opposing captain made a mistake. She really has 4 players and can contest the match after all. League coordinator told me it was up to me whether to accept the attempt to withdraw the default.

I told him no, we wouldn't accept. Was it because I was being cagey or trying to grab a cheap win? No, it was because I couldn't be sure whether I could get these six players after I had canceled with them. Some have small children, so sitters and husbands could have been involved, and of course if we wound up shorthanded then we'd be defaulting courts.

It is a shame this inexperienced captain panicked and waved the white flag prematurely, but I didn't think I could jerk my players around to try to fix it. We offered to play a rescheduled match, but that is very difficult to arrange and never happened.

Whoa, let's get some things straight, Cindy. You talk about manners in some of your other posts. To many people, it is very BAD manners to put a name on the card knowing they won't show up. I don't care what type of captain you are, this is a no-no. The captain should contact the other captain ahead of time and inform him of what line(s) are being defaulted. The other captain should also inform him of what lines he is defaulting. In our district, this can get you in trouble if the other captain pushes it. You may be ineligible to participate in leagues for a while.

As for what matches are defaulted, the rules used to be that you either default #2 singles or #3 doubles first. The second default is the other one out of the 2 above. The exception seems to be if you have 4 players, therefore you play the 2 singles and 1 doubles match. There is no match played if you can't field 3 lines. For matches with 3 doubles, you default #3 doubles. I don't know if they have changed this since I have seen match results where all matches are played except a #1 line. In these cases, this is where either a person didn't show up or the captains made some other agreement. The USTA doesn't seem to enforce the default rules very well.

As for defaulting all lines in our district, this is a major violation. This means unless there are mitigating circumstances, you default the remaining matches on your schedule. Either dig up enough players (4 in this case) or talk to the opposing captain about a reschedule. It is better to reschedule a match and not play it rather than defaulting a match.

Also Cindy, I would have done the same thing if the captain messed up on how many people they had and forfeited a match. But see paragraph above, I also would not like to see the team kicked out. I would have offered to reschedule the match if it meant anything rather than have them kicked out. If it didn't mean anything, just not play it. It is unfair to the other team members to have the team kicked out due to the captain screwing up.

Casey10s
05-01-2009, 01:42 PM
In the rules from a few years ago, you can't default both singles and only play doubles. For defaulting 2 lines, one must be a doubles match. This may have changed or local rules may modify this.

Cindysphinx
05-01-2009, 04:01 PM
Whoa, let's get some things straight, Cindy. You talk about manners in some of your other posts. To many people, it is very BAD manners to put a name on the card knowing they won't show up.

Agreed.

In my post, I tried to distinguish between what a person *can* do and what a captain should do/what I do. Hence the use of the derisive term "smirk." I should have been more clear that I was not suggesting that I do this. I am suggesting that it is not prohibited under our local rules.

Personally, I am not interested in using deceit to win matches or win defaults.

I don't care what type of captain you are, this is a no-no. The captain should contact the other captain ahead of time and inform him of what line(s) are being defaulted. The other captain should also inform him of what lines he is defaulting. In our district, this can get you in trouble if the other captain pushes it. You may be ineligible to participate in leagues for a while.

Nope, not so here.

Here, they ask captains to be courteous and inform opposing teams of defaults, but it is not strictly required and there is no penalty for doing so. Some captains will not tell you of a default until the line-up is exchanged, and they don't care whose time they waste. And we all know who they are. As I said earlier, there are financial incentives to be straightforward about it.

As for what matches are defaulted, the rules used to be that you either default #2 singles or #3 doubles first. The second default is the other one out of the 2 above. The exception seems to be if you have 4 players, therefore you play the 2 singles and 1 doubles match. There is no match played if you can't field 3 lines. For matches with 3 doubles, you default #3 doubles. I don't know if they have changed this since I have seen match results where all matches are played except a #1 line. In these cases, this is where either a person didn't show up or the captains made some other agreement. The USTA doesn't seem to enforce the default rules very well.

Here, the lower courts must be defaulted. I think the reason you see higher courts defaulted is because the opposing captain doesn't know the rule or doesn't care. Our rule specifically says it is the responsibility of the non-defaulting captain to make sure the lower court is defaulted.

As for defaulting all lines in our district, this is a major violation. This means unless there are mitigating circumstances, you default the remaining matches on your schedule. Either dig up enough players (4 in this case) or talk to the opposing captain about a reschedule. It is better to reschedule a match and not play it rather than defaulting a match.

Here, it is difficult to reschedule matches because all matches are played indoors. It can be crazy-hard to find the courts you need. If you do default all five lines, that match may be disregarded for purposes of seeing who advances. I believe that captains who are habitual defaulters must post a huge season deposit (something like $275 instead of the $100 the rest of us pay). There are teams that blow through their whole super-size deposit.

I think scratching the team's season is rather harsh. I have heard of teams defaulting the team match because the captain sent everyone to the wrong place. And another time a captain couldn't get her players to the venue because of snow. I would hate to see a season default under those circumstances.

Also Cindy, I would have done the same thing if the captain messed up on how many people they had and forfeited a match. But see paragraph above, I also would not like to see the team kicked out. I would have offered to reschedule the match if it meant anything rather than have them kicked out. If it didn't mean anything, just not play it. It is unfair to the other team members to have the team kicked out due to the captain screwing up.

I did offer to reschedule. Captain never replied. The penalty wasn't her being kicked out of the league. The penalty was she had to pay our court fees, so it cost her $34 x 3. She is one who has to post a mega-deposit now.

That captain was really, really clueless. When I got to my e-mail that night, I had a bazillion messages. I had been copied on all of the e-mails among their teammates in their effort to find six players. As it turned out, they actually had five players, but the captain didn't understand the e-mail exchange, which led to the premature call to the league coordinator.

I guess she won't make that mistake again.

Cindysphinx
05-01-2009, 04:07 PM
Thanks Cindy, good info.



So what happens then? Say both teams have just 1 singles but all 3 doubles lines available. The match can still be contested, but how are results recorded for the default? Is there such a thing as a double-default in tennislink?

I believe that any line where neither team has a player/team is a double-default, which is an option in TennisLink. So in your example, you double-default S2 and the winner of the team match will be the team that wins three of the remaining courts. If they tie 2-2, then you go to your tiebreak rules to determine the winner. I hope you have tiebreak rules that cover this. We do.

Another example. Team A submits a scorecard that defaults S2 and D3. Team B submits a scorecard that defaults S1 and D2. I would guess that D1 would play, and the winner of that court would have won three courts such that they win the team match. Does that sound right?

Casey10s
05-01-2009, 10:30 PM
I believe that any line where neither team has a player/team is a double-default, which is an option in TennisLink. So in your example, you double-default S2 and the winner of the team match will be the team that wins three of the remaining courts. If they tie 2-2, then you go to your tiebreak rules to determine the winner. I hope you have tiebreak rules that cover this. We do.

Another example. Team A submits a scorecard that defaults S2 and D3. Team B submits a scorecard that defaults S1 and D2. I would guess that D1 would play, and the winner of that court would have won three courts such that they win the team match. Does that sound right?

I think in the rules, you cannot default S1 and D2. You can default S2 and D3 or you can default D2 and D3. You can't default higher matches and play lower level. If your best player can't make it, the players have to move up. You can't leave a higher position open so your players can play at their normal positions.

Casey10s
05-01-2009, 10:45 PM
I think scratching the team's season is rather harsh. I have heard of teams defaulting the team match because the captain sent everyone to the wrong place. And another time a captain couldn't get her players to the venue because of snow. I would hate to see a season default under those circumstances.

What used to happen was if the team was out of the running for the championship, they wouldn't play their remaining matches. There were just too many cases of getting halfway through the season and the only matches that were being played were by the top team(s). Many matches weren't being played at all and the teams would forfeit their match against the leading teams. Out of a 10 match schedule, many teams were only playing 4 to 6 matches. Of course, there were a lot of people upset with paying the league fees and never getting much chance too play.

This really reduced the complete match defaults. There are still cases where both captains decide not to play a match unless it counts and then not playing it since it didn't count for anything. Also, for the really bad cases, I think the district can ban a team from playing the next year or ban the captain from the league for a really gregarious violation such as deciding not to show up for a match but not tell the other team you are doing this.

As for league court time, this is not very hard to get. Many teams used to play at public facilities but more are gravitating towards private clubs. But the private clubs like the leagues since it fills up their unused court time. The one club I play at has 17 courts and less than a third of them might be taken at the same time as a league.

raiden031
05-02-2009, 03:37 AM
Because we play indoors, there are always court fees involved. If you notify the other captain ahead of time that you're defaulting, she may cut you a break and not require that you reimburse her for the wasted court. If you default at the last minute, some captains will not cut you this break (I fall into that category).

Are you saying the captain that has the full lineup will eat the costs of the court and not hold the defaulting captain responsible for their share? Why would they do that? Are you still responsible for the court even if several days notice is given that a line has been defaulted?

raiden031
05-02-2009, 03:40 AM
One thing that I thought was BS was that when I played at Nationals, Hawaii only had 7 players on their roster. In most cases, this would get the captain banned from National competition, but they apparently made an exception for Hawaii because travel from there is much farther than for other areas.

Anyways despite having 7 players, they were allowed to choose between defaulting #2 singles or #3 doubles. I think its BS that 2 players who spent $1000 or more to travel to Nationals have to sit out when they played Hawaii when only 1 person should had to have sat out at most.

Cindysphinx
05-02-2009, 04:59 AM
Are you saying the captain that has the full lineup will eat the costs of the court and not hold the defaulting captain responsible for their share? Why would they do that? Are you still responsible for the court even if several days notice is given that a line has been defaulted?

The only reason a captain would do this is professional courtesy. My mixed captain was a good guy and agreed to waive the fees for a default once. I think the reason is that if a team defaults just because a player is just late, then the players can play an exhibition match that doesn't count. Everyone still gets to play, the court gets used, so perhaps then it would be reasonable not to charge the other team for the court.

In our league, you are responsible for court costs for a default no matter how much notice you have given. The league pays the clubs for the courts up front, so there is no pot of money available for refunds to teams that default.

Most teams make the player who caused the default pay all of the court costs. So the player must reimburse the captain for the $34 the other team gets paid. And the player must reimburse the captain the $34 she paid the league at the beginning of the season.

Even with $68 and a default on the line, players still try to cut it close by trying to show up for matches in the nick of time. :(

The other wrinkle in our league is that the defaulting captain "owns" the courts and can decide what is to be done with them. So last night, the other team defaulted both singles courts and notified us that morning. My two singles players decided to come anyway and practice. If the defaulting captain so desired, she could have played hardball and prevented them from using the court unless we agreed not to charge her for the default.

Cindysphinx
05-02-2009, 05:04 AM
I think in the rules, you cannot default S1 and D2. You can default S2 and D3 or you can default D2 and D3. You can't default higher matches and play lower level. If your best player can't make it, the players have to move up. You can't leave a higher position open so your players can play at their normal positions.

You can default S2 and D3. You just have to have a devious mind and an ethical deficit.

You would fill out your scorecard with the names of players you know will not be attending the match. You calmly do the warm-up, glancing at your watch and wondering aloud where on earth Bob and Ned are. Then when the warm-up period is over, you shrug and give the other team the default on the lines where Bob and Ned are written.

Around here, it is up to the other captain to enforce the rule about lower courts being defaulted, and some captains don't know it. Some players resist their captain's request to move up after warm-up and playing a different team they haven't had a chance to warm up with.

Also, if the players on the lower courts start their matches, then they cannot move up when Bob and Ned don't show up.

That's how you could run that particular scam if you were ethically challenged.

Jim A
05-02-2009, 05:28 AM
does anyone else bring a sub to matches? we have 12 people on the team so 8 are scheduled for each match along with one person who is there to sub in case of life getting in the way for someone

raiden031
05-02-2009, 05:30 AM
The only reason a captain would do this is professional courtesy. My mixed captain was a good guy and agreed to waive the fees for a default once. I think the reason is that if a team defaults just because a player is just late, then the players can play an exhibition match that doesn't count. Everyone still gets to play, the court gets used, so perhaps then it would be reasonable not to charge the other team for the court.

In our league, you are responsible for court costs for a default no matter how much notice you have given. The league pays the clubs for the courts up front, so there is no pot of money available for refunds to teams that default.

Most teams make the player who caused the default pay all of the court costs. So the player must reimburse the captain for the $34 the other team gets paid. And the player must reimburse the captain the $34 she paid the league at the beginning of the season.

Even with $68 and a default on the line, players still try to cut it close by trying to show up for matches in the nick of time. :(

The other wrinkle in our league is that the defaulting captain "owns" the courts and can decide what is to be done with them. So last night, the other team defaulted both singles courts and notified us that morning. My two singles players decided to come anyway and practice. If the defaulting captain so desired, she could have played hardball and prevented them from using the court unless we agreed not to charge her for the default.

So am I correct in saying that the only time a captain would spare the defaulting team court costs would be when they themselves are still planning to use the court so they will have their own players pay the cost instead?

Cindysphinx
05-02-2009, 05:50 AM
So am I correct in saying that the only time a captain would spare the defaulting team court costs would be when they themselves are still planning to use the court so they will have their own players pay the cost instead?

No. The other circumstance is when a default is taken because a player is 5 minutes late and the foursome uses the court time for an exhibition match, if the non-defaulting captain feels like being nice.

raiden031
05-02-2009, 05:55 AM
No. The other circumstance is when a default is taken because a player is 5 minutes late and the foursome uses the court time for an exhibition match, if the non-defaulting captain feels like being nice.

Yeah but everyone still pays their share (including the defaulting pair). I was just getting clarification that the nice captain isn't just eating up costs to be nice.

Cindysphinx
05-02-2009, 05:59 AM
does anyone else bring a sub to matches? we have 12 people on the team so 8 are scheduled for each match along with one person who is there to sub in case of life getting in the way for someone

I designate two subs, but they do not attend the match in case a player cannot attend. Instead, their obligation is to hold the date open in case of a last-minute scheduling problem.

I can't justify asking people to hire sitters and drive across town on the off chance another player will get stuck in traffic. This isn't qualifying for Wimbledon. It is just a fun hobby. If we default a court, we will survive.

I have now captained 11 teams. I believe we have defaulted six matches over that time.

Two of the defaults were because a player was pregnant and went on emergency bed rest and we didn't have anyone else on the roster who could cover. This was at 2.5, where we only had 11 players and it isn't easy to find a new 2.5 to join a team on short notice.

One default was a player stuck in traffic. We won the team match anyway.

Two defaults were different players who thought the match started at 9 pm when it really started at 8 pm. For one, we won the team match. For the other, we lost 0-3, so it didn't matter.

One default was a player who left a message with the substitute captain saying she couldn't play, but the substitute captain didn't get the message and the player didn't close the loop. This player has disappeared and we never heard another word from her. I assume she was abducted by aliens. We won that team match also.

So on balance, I don't think it is worth it to force subs to attend. My 4.0 captain feels differently, so in a few weeks I will slog all the way across town in traffic to be Alternate No. 2. Ahem.

OrangePower
05-02-2009, 10:52 AM
Not on topic, but I'm curious...

A couple of people mentioned court costs and how they get shared / paid for. Here (Norcal), each team is responsible for arranging and paying for courts for their home matches. If a match needs to be rescheduled, it's up to the home team to arrange courts. We don't ever pay court fees to the league or to other teams.

So how does it work elsewhere and what is the motivation for doing it differently?

Casey10s
05-02-2009, 12:04 PM
In AMD (Western PA), the fees are split between the home and way teams. Some of the teams from the public courts complain every once in a while since they don't have fees for their home matches and they have to pay when they play at a private club. For the most part, court fees run about 5 to 12 per person, mostly around 10 per person.

OrangePower
05-02-2009, 12:33 PM
In AMD (Western PA), the fees are split between the home and way teams. Some of the teams from the public courts complain every once in a while since they don't have fees for their home matches and they have to pay when they play at a private club. For the most part, court fees run about 5 to 12 per person, mostly around 10 per person.

Huh. Glad I'm in Norcal then. I would have a problem with that in principle.

I mean, if some folks choose to join an expensive private club, that's fine - they understand the costs when they joined. But then forcing other teams to pay for playing a league match there isn't fair - they didn't choose to join a private club! And teams don't have any control over what other teams register for the league and what they are going to charge for courts.

Seems fairer to have the home team pick up the court costs as we do here. The only downside would be if some cost-conscious teams end up hosting at inadequate facilities, but the league has standards in place to prevent that.

Cindysphinx
05-02-2009, 01:24 PM
I play in two leagues, with different policies.

In DC, you pay Tennislink fees of $72 to register for a team. Captains usually collect $3-5 per season per player to buy balls for the matches. If you only play one match like I did last year, that is a mighty expensive match. No other court fees are assessed.

In my main league, the league has negotiated a rate with all of the indoor county facilities and private clubs. That rate is $34/2 hour match for singles and $68/2 hour timed match for doubles. Then the league divides the fees among the teams in a particular flight, and the captain has to pay that amount to the league (in addition to a $100 refundable deposit to cover any defaulted courts). This season, I had to put $1300 onto my credit card for my 3.5 team to cover team costs (!).

How the captain collects from the players is entirely up to her. Most captains have players pay $17 for each match they play. My mixed captain, for instance, has everyone pay up front for the same number of matches (5 matches) and then does a true-up at the end of the season.

I used to do it that way, but all manner of shennanigans made me stop. Instead, I now take the whole $1200 cost and divide it by the number of players. No refunds if you don't get to play. I promise to put everyone into the line-up for their allocation of matches, but if you keep canceling then you don't get a refund at the end of the season. So the cost to be on the roster for my 3.5 team this season was $78.20 for 4-5 matches.

I had so many problems with assessing players by the match. I had women who took up slots on the roster but were never available. I had women who were Chronic Cancelers -- every time you put them in the line-up, they backed out for some reason, which played havoc with the line-up and caused overall chaos finding subs. People who were team players and dropped everything to sub in frequently received a thank you in the form of a bill for more court fees. And at the end of the season, we spent all this effort swapping around relatively small amounts of money.

Then there are captains who collect the money in small increments. "OK Jill, you paid $34 so far this season, but you played one extra match, so send me another check for $17." These captains seem to get stiffed quite a lot. It is hard enough to collect money once, let alone 2-3 times in the season. Better, I think, is to bill everyone one time, collect the money, and then go play tennis.

Cindy -- who can predict with astonishing accuracy which player will be the last to send her a check for court fees each season

Casey10s
05-02-2009, 06:31 PM
Huh. Glad I'm in Norcal then. I would have a problem with that in principle.

I mean, if some folks choose to join an expensive private club, that's fine - they understand the costs when they joined. But then forcing other teams to pay for playing a league match there isn't fair - they didn't choose to join a private club! And teams don't have any control over what other teams register for the league and what they are going to charge for courts.

Seems fairer to have the home team pick up the court costs as we do here. The only downside would be if some cost-conscious teams end up hosting at inadequate facilities, but the league has standards in place to prevent that.

Like I said, mostly one is paying $10 or less per person. We play out of one of the most expensive places in the area and I think it comes out to about $7 per person. Pretty cheap for 1 to 2 hours of tennis. Most of the places we play have no curfews so if you have a 3 hour match, go at it. The problem with a lot of the public facilities is that the courts are not in great condition.

Where it got expensive was a rule that the home team had to supply refreshments and food. Sometimes this ran more than the court fees and if you had a long match, you may have got some chips and left over soda. You would miss the pizza/sandwiches or whatever was the main food. There are only a few leagues that still do the catering bit. I fine with that. If I am hungry, I will stop on the way home.

OrangePower
05-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Like I said, mostly one is paying $10 or less per person. We play out of one of the most expensive places in the area and I think it comes out to about $7 per person. Pretty cheap for 1 to 2 hours of tennis. Most of the places we play have no curfews so if you have a 3 hour match, go at it. The problem with a lot of the public facilities is that the courts are not in great condition.

Where it got expensive was a rule that the home team had to supply refreshments and food. Sometimes this ran more than the court fees and if you had a long match, you may have got some chips and left over soda. You would miss the pizza/sandwiches or whatever was the main food. There are only a few leagues that still do the catering bit. I fine with that. If I am hungry, I will stop on the way home.

I hear you; it's a small price to pay for playing tennis. It's the principle that I would think is unfair more so than the actual dollar cost.

In our area, it is customary for the home team to offer refreshments after the match, and you're right, that's often the most expensive part - I usually bring a couple of sixpacks to home matches, so that's about $10 right there. We do enjoy our refreshments though ;-)

raiden031
05-03-2009, 03:15 AM
I used to do it that way, but all manner of shennanigans made me stop. Instead, I now take the whole $1200 cost and divide it by the number of players. No refunds if you don't get to play. I promise to put everyone into the line-up for their allocation of matches, but if you keep canceling then you don't get a refund at the end of the season. So the cost to be on the roster for my 3.5 team this season was $78.20 for 4-5 matches.


So if you were captaining a team where you don't guarantee any set number of matches per player, would you collect the same way or just collect on match day from those playing?

Whats interesting about my league is that the captains pay the facility for the indoor court time on the day of the match instead of in one lump sum payment. So that means its a bit less financial burden on the captain, but there are still league fees just to be on a team at all that need to be collected, and can add up pretty high as well (I think they are like $30 for club members, $80 for non-members and this doesn't include the usta fee of like $25).

Cindysphinx
05-03-2009, 01:50 PM
So if you were captaining a team where you don't guarantee any set number of matches per player, would you collect the same way or just collect on match day from those playing?

Whats interesting about my league is that the captains pay the facility for the indoor court time on the day of the match instead of in one lump sum payment. So that means its a bit less financial burden on the captain, but there are still league fees just to be on a team at all that need to be collected, and can add up pretty high as well (I think they are like $30 for club members, $80 for non-members and this doesn't include the usta fee of like $25).

No way no how am I collecting by the match if there is any way to avoid it. Geez, what a pain. Gotta dig up change, take people's checks, take people's IOUs.

I'm not an accountant. I just want to play tennis. I'm glad our league makes it easy to deal with the money simply.

If I didn't pledge to play everyone equally, then I would make everyone over-pay me up front. So I would have everyone pay for 6 matches and then give refunds. I'm tellin' ya, there are people who have no trouble at all stiffing you and are quite comfortable with deadbeat behavior. It's really quite shocking.