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Arafel
05-03-2009, 08:40 PM
I was just watching my DVD of the 85 French Open final between Evert and Navratilova and was really struck by how flat Evert hit her strokes. Though there were women who employed head topspin and moonballs (Jaeger, for instance), Evert hit fairly flat off both wings, and yet she has the record for most French Open titles.

It makes for an interesting contrast with the men of the time. The players who were successful on clay in the 70s and 80s (Borg, Vilas, Wilander and Lendl) all hit with a lot of topspin. I've seen videos of Borg vs. Vilas, and the two practically hit moonballs the entire match. The same can be said of some of the Lendl vs. Wilander matches I've seen.

plasma
05-03-2009, 10:28 PM
while she hit flat she aimed for consistency and went a good margin over the net. I always thought her strokes and style were boring, too controlled; mechanical and Lipton plunge...I WAN"T LIPTON!!! sorry...anyways I love fluid players, Navratilova and Sukova were good, they let the racquet do the work instead of their muscles...

DMan
05-03-2009, 10:43 PM
while she hit flat she aimed for consistency and went a good margin over the net. I always thought her strokes and style were boring, too controlled; mechanical and Lipton plunge...I WAN"T LIPTON!!! sorry...anyways I love fluid players, Navratilova and Sukova were good, they let the racquet do the work instead of their muscles...

I always thought Evert was the absolute purest striker of the ball in the history of the game. Perfection may be boring or some. But Chris was very fluid with her strokes and her movement.

Too many of the Chrissie clones were mechanical and controlled. And so much less fluid, which is why few of them ever did anything significant.

Funny comment about Navratilova letting her racquet do the work instead of her muscles. I thought Martina was the one with muscles, and Chris was the scrawny, not as athletic one.?! Also, I never thought sukova had muscles. And I never thought she was that fluid. Hana Mandlikova was a very fluid player. Helena was a bit choppier.

But Evert on clay, she knew how to mix things up. She did hit mostly flat, but had such precision she could afford to hit flatter than most.

grafrules
05-03-2009, 10:46 PM
I am surprised when I heard people talk about Evert as a non-power player. For her time she was one of the hardest hitters, both back with a wood racquet and then the early years of her playing with a graphite before she really started to age out of her prime. I remember Renee Richards who coached Martina for awhile telling the press it was almost comedic how Evert was labeled by some as not being a hard hitter.

BTURNER
05-03-2009, 10:56 PM
I think she drives her backhand flat and hard, but puts more top on the forehand crosscourt to keep Martina back on the baseline with the bounce up higher to her backhand. She uses a sidespin/underspin shot to change direction of the rally down the line on the forehand She uses moonballs just as change of pace or during a longer rally to get some extra breathing time. When she hit with wood, she hit much flatter. Some added top kept control and consistency on clay. And you are right about her hitting hard for her era. She also hit mighty close to the sidelines for such a consistent player. It did not gain lots of winners, but it did require extra stretching and footwork that paid off with fatigue.

BTURNER
05-04-2009, 02:01 AM
She was so often the aggressor in rallies, particularly against other baseliners. But of course if most folks watch the finals, with either Martina or Hana, she seems far more defensive than she really was, because they were a bit more desperate to get the short ball to approach, lest they be trapped in her quicksand.

"I always thought Evert was the absolute purest striker of the ball in the history of the game. Perfection may be boring or some. But Chris was very fluid with her strokes and her movement."

So true. She was incredibly economical in both stroke production and footwork, always in position, but not overrunning, with consistent application of the fundamentals with each stroke. Her serve was not the most fluid seamless piece of art, and her backhand overhead was plain SCARY. The other shots were all so solid and sure and deftly disguised.

suwanee4712
05-04-2009, 09:18 AM
I am surprised when I heard people talk about Evert as a non-power player. For her time she was one of the hardest hitters, both back with a wood racquet and then the early years of her playing with a graphite before she really started to age out of her prime. I remember Renee Richards who coached Martina for awhile telling the press it was almost comedic how Evert was labeled by some as not being a hard hitter.


I'm surprised too. Chris didn't necessarily go for a lot of winners, but she was often able to open up the court by hitting so flat. That's also how she kept players on the run too. As BJK would say, champions "force the issue." It was more obvious with herself, Martina, Steffi, Monica, etc. But Chris had her own way of forcing the issue too. Most players just couldn't keep up with her.

Arafel
05-04-2009, 09:50 AM
She was so often the aggressor in rallies, particularly against other baseliners. But of course if most folks watch the finals, with either Martina or Hana, she seems far more defensive than she really was, because they were a bit more desperate to get the short ball to approach, lest they be trapped in her quicksand.

"I always thought Evert was the absolute purest striker of the ball in the history of the game. Perfection may be boring or some. But Chris was very fluid with her strokes and her movement."

So true. She was incredibly economical in both stroke production and footwork, always in position, but not overrunning, with consistent application of the fundamentals with each stroke. Her serve was not the most fluid seamless piece of art, and her backhand overhead was plain SCARY. The other shots were all so solid and sure and deftly disguised.

Agreed. Watching the 85 French final, I was amazed at how she was able to open up the court with flat, sharply angled shots. She could also hit some several topspin shots that stayed low, like the forehand pass she hit at break point 4-3 in the final set to get a break and serve for the set. It would make a modern proud (her follow through ends up by her right ear!).

It was her footwork that really impressed me though. She constantly moved her feet to get in position to do the most with the ball.

morten
05-04-2009, 10:08 AM
she reminded me of a female Borg..

CEvertFan
05-04-2009, 12:50 PM
I think she drives her backhand flat and hard, but puts more top on the forehand crosscourt to keep Martina back on the baseline with the bounce up higher to her backhand. She uses a sidespin/underspin shot to change direction of the rally down the line on the forehand She uses moonballs just as change of pace or during a longer rally to get some extra breathing time. When she hit with wood, she hit much flatter. Some added top kept control and consistency on clay. And you are right about her hitting hard for her era. She also hit mighty close to the sidelines for such a consistent player. It did not gain lots of winners, but it did require extra stretching and footwork that paid off with fatigue.

For groundstrokes, Evert usually hit flat off both sides but could hit with topspin if she wanted to. She could also hit with underspin and sidespin off both sides. She was one of the hardest hitters of her era, especially off the backhand side. She did hit flatter with wood than she did with graphite.

I always thought she was always so balanced and her strokes were very fluid and economical but some people found her mechanical. Her backhand especially was always a thing of beauty to watch and deadly in it's time as well. Great anticipation, great footwork and great technique are also a big part of what made her shots so great and so accurate.

In her prime, Evert was known for running players into the ground. She would pick away at all an opponent's weaknesses and exploit them to the best of her ability.

bluetrain4
05-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I think some of the telecasts just don't do her justice. I've seen matches where it appears like she's not hitting that hard, but I've seen others where the power is readily evident. Granted, she's not hitting Serena Williams or Davenport type power, but she was powerful nonetheless. Watch the 1988 AO final against Graf, second set. A past-her-prime Chrissie is going blow for blow with Graf, power, angles, spin on full display. And, remember, she's doing this consistently with a standard thin-beamed, heavy, 85 sq inch graphite frame. I guarantee the Williams and Davenport would not be as consistent with similar equipment. (In fact, they're not anywhere near as consistent anyway).

Good thread. Nice to see people appreciatively pick apart Evert's game, which too often is deemed robotic ("she's a consistent baseliner") and the fluidity and nuance isn't appreciated.

tonyg11
05-04-2009, 02:09 PM
a lot of players that hit the ball flat like Connors and Evert had amazing shot placement on every stroke. Something which you don't see in todays game. Hitting lines on weaker low flat shots can be just as effective as a huge powerful topsin shot that hits in the middle of the court. Especially on faster low bouncing surfaces.

pmerk34
05-04-2009, 04:46 PM
Agreed. Watching the 85 French final, I was amazed at how she was able to open up the court with flat, sharply angled shots. She could also hit some several topspin shots that stayed low, like the forehand pass she hit at break point 4-3 in the final set to get a break and serve for the set. It would make a modern proud (her follow through ends up by her right ear!).

It was her footwork that really impressed me though. She constantly moved her feet to get in position to do the most with the ball.

Her backhand pass on match point was creamed..my favorite female passing shot of all time is that one right there.

grafselesfan
05-04-2009, 04:50 PM
Evert was a very smart player. I think she adapted depending on the opponent. When she hit Martina she had no choice but to hit flatter and more penetrating shots to try and keep Martina pinned back and avoid Martina with her "big" game from bullying her. Vs other players she might have played differently. She was an excellent tactician.

gpt
05-04-2009, 05:17 PM
This is a very interesting thread. Evert is one player who altered her game in order to keep up with new opponents and racquet technology. Her strokes by 1988 were quite different from 1974. I suspect that her grip changed to enable more topspin later in her career. I played local competition tennis from 14 yrs old to about 30 in the early 90's. At the time I stopped I was still using a Pro Kennex Copper Ace. My kids are old enough to play now so I am back on the court using a Wilson Ncode. I cant play the same way as I did with the older racquets.

Serena Williams could not play her game with an 85 sq in wooden racquet. The other thing Evert did was change her diet and fitness levels in order to keep up with Navratilova. I am sure that prolonged her career. I agree with plasma in that she was not a fluid player but I think her timing, footwork and mental toughness made her great to watch.

BTURNER
05-04-2009, 06:48 PM
While that '85 French is a textbook tactical match on Evert's part. It sure wasn't on Martina's. Navratilova kept going with her 'comfort' approach slice down the line to Evert's backhand throughout the first set and early second. Evert was just not missing that backhand that day. Martina of all people, should have known better than to go there on important points, let alone match point. In so many matches throughout Evert's career, big combacks started, when her opponents approached that backhand. No matter how low her confidence or how daunting the score, she always knew that pass was inside begging for release. Check out that comeback win over Geisel at the US open in '71. It was the backhand and its returns that got her back. Check out that last QF against Golarsa, down 3-5, Golarsa approached several times to that backhand. You'd think Martina would know better at match point! Best single passing stroke the women's game ever saw and that is where Martina sent her approach!

By the way, That was not Evert's best clay game. That showed up in the last 2 sets the following year. Martina brought her 'A' game on court which won a 6-2 set. Evert' brought hers the following two. Martina post loss said she had never been passed that well. She couldn't think of anything she could have done differently to stop Evert.

Arafel
05-04-2009, 07:04 PM
While that '85 French is a textbook tactical match on Evert's part. It sure wasn't on Martina's. Navratilova kept going with her 'comfort' approach slice down the line to Evert's backhand throughout the first set and early second. Evert was just not missing that backhand that day. Martina of all people, should have known better than to go there on important points, let alone match point. In so many matches throughout Evert's career, big combacks started, when her opponents approached that backhand. No matter how low her confidence or how daunting the score, she always knew that pass was inside begging for release. Check out that comeback win over Geisel at the US open in '71. It was the backhand and its returns that got her back. Check out that last QF against Golarsa, down 3-5, Golarsa approached several times to that backhand. You'd think Martina would know better at match point! Best single passing stroke the women's game ever saw and that is where Martina sent her approach!

By the way, That was not Evert's best clay game. That showed up in the last 2 sets the following year. Martina brought her 'A' game on court which won a 6-2 set. Evert' brought hers the following two. Martina post loss said she had never been passed that well. She couldn't think of anything she could have done differently to stop Evert.

Yeah. As dramatic as the 85 final was, Evert was still doubting herself a little bit against Martina. She kept letting Navratilova off the hook. She was up 4-2 in the second and had double break point. Then she broke Martina and served for the match at 6-5.

In the third, she was up 2-0 serving at 40-15, then had an ad in, before Martina broke to get back on serve. Chris then broke back to go up 3-1 and had 40-30 to go up 4-1 on her serve and played too cautiously. Martina actually out-rallied Chris several times in that third set. After Martina held for 3-3, Chris held, then broke and again served for the match, but let Martina back in again.

It made for great drama, but the match should have been over a lot earlier than it was.

CEvertFan
05-04-2009, 08:12 PM
Yeah. As dramatic as the 85 final was, Evert was still doubting herself a little bit against Martina. She kept letting Navratilova off the hook. She was up 4-2 in the second and had double break point. Then she broke Martina and served for the match at 6-5.

In the third, she was up 2-0 serving at 40-15, then had an ad in, before Martina broke to get back on serve. Chris then broke back to go up 3-1 and had 40-30 to go up 4-1 on her serve and played too cautiously. Martina actually out-rallied Chris several times in that third set. After Martina held for 3-3, Chris held, then broke and again served for the match, but let Martina back in again.

It made for great drama, but the match should have been over a lot earlier than it was.

I would have to agree with that - for the first time in her career Evert really began to seriously doubt herself and some of that showed at certain points in the match. She should have won it in straight sets but then we wouldn't have seen that amazing backhand pass down the line on match point. One of the greatest single shots in history.

Arafel
05-04-2009, 08:13 PM
Highlights from the 86 final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SzAAACcJI&feature=related

Yes, she played amazingly well in that one. Check out the forehand pass on the first point of the video, and then some of the volleys she hit too!

CEvertFan
05-04-2009, 08:14 PM
Highlights from the 86 final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SzAAACcJI&feature=related

Yes, she played amazingly well in that one. Check out the forehand pass on the first point of the video, and then some of the volleys she hit too!


Evert is a very underrated volleyer.

grafrules
05-04-2009, 08:27 PM
I think the 85 French Open final really broke the ice mentally for Chris in playing Martina a bit. From 1986 to 1989 even when Chris was really aging faster than Martina (2 years older is a big difference when you get to that age especialy vs the very late blooming Martina) she was still faring much better vs Martina than she had from 1982-1984. It is just unfortunate for her that breakthrough win that broke some of the mental barrier didnt happen earlier.

Arafel
05-04-2009, 08:35 PM
I think the 85 French Open final really broke the ice mentally for Chris in playing Martina a bit. From 1986 to 1989 even when Chris was really aging faster than Martina (2 years older is a big difference when you get to that age especialy vs the very late blooming Martina) she was still faring much better vs Martina than she had from 1982-1984. It is just unfortunate for her that breakthrough win that broke some of the mental barrier didnt happen earlier.

Well, part of it is that Chris didn't start playing with a graphite racquet until 1984, whereas Martina switched in 82. Martina had more power available and it really helped her serve, which made her volleys easier. The 83 US final, Chris was still using her beloved wooden Wilson and she was no match for Martina. It took Chris a little while to get used to graphite, although by the 84 US Open, you could see it was starting to happen for her.

BTURNER
05-04-2009, 08:43 PM
Let's not forget her touch. Evert's lob and forehand drop shot won a few points here and there on the clay courts.

bluetrain4
05-05-2009, 10:06 AM
Wow, watching some of those clips, I'm struck by Evert's speed.

And, I don't think enough can be said about about her consistent depth. Depth isn't a characteristic that's particularly interesting to talk about, but we all know the extreme importance of hitting deep (unless you consciously are trying to hit shorter). She hit consistently deep better than almost any player.

CEvertFan
05-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Wow, watching some of those clips, I'm struck by Evert's speed.

And, I don't think enough can be said about about her consistent depth. Depth isn't a characteristic that's particularly interesting to talk about, but we all know the extreme importance of hitting deep (unless you consciously are trying to hit shorter). She hit consistently deep better than almost any player.

In her prime she was deceptively quick but even more than that she had superb anticipation and those two things combined allowed her to get to a lot of difficult balls.

She hit deep consistently better than any other player I ever saw. She loved to push her opponents deep behind the baseline and make them run, run, and run.

suwanee4712
05-05-2009, 02:12 PM
Let's not forget her touch. Evert's lob and forehand drop shot won a few points here and there on the clay courts.

Not many players have a great forehand dropshot. Evert's was darn near perfect.

BTURNER
05-05-2009, 02:33 PM
The backhand dropshot so many one- handers had, was something she was envious of. She often said two- handers just couldn't disguise theirs as well. but for a forehand dropshot, her's was exquisite.

hoodjem
05-05-2009, 02:40 PM
Highlights from the 86 final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SzAAACcJI&feature=related

Yes, she played amazingly well in that one. Check out the forehand pass on the first point of the video, and then some of the volleys she hit too!
After watching this video, I am wondering if Evert didn't develop a little more topspin on her shots because of the added power of the graphite PS racquet over the old wooden Wilsons.

Whaddya think?

BTURNER
05-05-2009, 02:47 PM
I already have you beat on that theory and so posted. She had to use more spin to control the power and stay consistent. No doubt she hit the forehand less flat after the change. Backhand really doesn't look much different, just more pace.

CEvertFan
05-05-2009, 05:43 PM
I already have you beat on that theory and so posted. She had to use more spin to control the power and stay consistent. No doubt she hit the forehand less flat after the change. Backhand really doesn't look much different, just more pace.

And a sound theory it is.


I think she needed the bit of topspin on the forehand side or the graphite racquet would have made her forehand fly on her and it would have been much less consistent than when she was using her trusty Wilson wood. Nice adjustment on her part.

BTURNER
05-05-2009, 06:51 PM
One opponent Evert played on clay ( can't remember) , took a set and said she wished she hadn't. She lost the next two easily and got nothing but cramps and sweat for the close first set. Said it just wasn't worth it.

CEvertFan
05-06-2009, 06:52 PM
One opponent Evert played on clay ( can't remember) , took a set and said she wished she hadn't. She lost the next two easily and got nothing but cramps and sweat for the close first set. Said it just wasn't worth it.

That's probably because Chris made that opponent do all the running. Evert was very good at running her opponents ragged.

Another thing that Evert was very good at was not losing more than one match in a row to a player. Virgina Wade said it best, and I quote - “The worse thing you can do to yourself is to beat Chris, because the next time she plays you, she goes out of her way to make it her business to really show you who’s boss.” and for most of Evert's career that quote holds true.

anointedone
05-06-2009, 06:55 PM
Virginia Wade hardly ever beat any out of Court, King, Goolagong, Navratilova, or Evert 2 times in a row so I am sure for her that held true. She was the whooping girl for all 5 of those players throughout her 70s, kind of the least great of the greats kind of role.

BTURNER
05-06-2009, 07:08 PM
Its even worse than that. You gotta get your hopes up after a first set victory, beyond all rational hope, then to get taken down in the last two sets 2 and 1 with the cramping and the misery that comes uniquely with those long rallies and realize there never was even a snowball's chance. At least against Martina, it was a mercifully quick demise. Martina made you look slow, weak and clumsy. Evert made you look stupid and junior league.

anointedone
05-06-2009, 07:09 PM
Its even worse than that. You gotta get your hopes up after a first set victory, beyond all rational hope, then to get taken down in the last two sets 2 and 1 with the cramping and the misery that comes uniquely with those long rallies and realize there never was even a snowball's chance. At least against Martina, it was a mercifully quick demise. Martina made you look slow, weak and clumsy. Evert made you look stupid and junior league.

Sounds almost like the difference between prime Sampras and prime Agassi. Or even peak Federer and peak Nadal. Both certain death for the opponent, but merely a different avenue taken to get there.

pmerk34
05-06-2009, 07:45 PM
Its even worse than that. You gotta get your hopes up after a first set victory, beyond all rational hope, then to get taken down in the last two sets 2 and 1 with the cramping and the misery that comes uniquely with those long rallies and realize there never was even a snowball's chance. At least against Martina, it was a mercifully quick demise. Martina made you look slow, weak and clumsy. Evert made you look stupid and junior league.

Evert handed out more bagels than anyone in history.

CEvertFan
05-08-2009, 09:31 PM
Evert handed out more bagels than anyone in history.

I wonder if Evert holds the record for the most bagel sets in the Open era.

BTURNER
05-08-2009, 11:47 PM
Here's a tougher trivia question. Name the players that inflicted a bagel on Evert?

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 12:44 AM
Here's a tougher trivia question. Name the players that inflicted a bagel on Evert?

Navratilova four times: on carpet in 1975, on carpet twice in 1983, once on clay in 1984
Margaret Court: once on grass in 1972
Austin: once on carpet in 1980
Evonne Goolagong three times: once on clay in 1973, twice on grass in 1974
Billie Jean King: once on grass in 1973

BTURNER
05-09-2009, 12:50 AM
Very good! but I have her giving both giving and receiving 5 bagels in her rivalry against Martina. You are also missing two more players who gave her a bagel. I have, what purports to be, a full H to H accounting of all the players she played on the tour and the scores. And as for the number she gave bagels not enough time in my days to type them but rest assured its a lot!

BTURNER
05-09-2009, 01:30 AM
As for Martina, She has lost the five bagel sets to Evert, but no other player has bageled more than once in a career, including Fed cup matches. This list has some real nobodys among the 9 left, unlike Evert's. Care to try?

suwanee4712
05-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Navratilova four times: on carpet in 1975, on carpet twice in 1983, once on clay in 1984
Margaret Court: once on grass in 1972
Austin: once on carpet in 1980
Evonne Goolagong three times: once on clay in 1973, twice on grass in 1974
Billie Jean King: once on grass in 1973

Mandlikova gave her one of her last bagels at the 1989 Indian Wells tournament, 3-6, 7-6, 6-0. Hana and Chris had not seen one another in almost a year and Chris walked up to her and said that she didn't want to play Hana. To which Hana replied, "I don't want to play you either." :)

CEvertFan
05-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Mandlikova gave her one of her last bagels at the 1989 Indian Wells tournament, 3-6, 7-6, 6-0. Hana and Chris had not seen one another in almost a year and Chris walked up to her and said that she didn't want to play Hana. To which Hana replied, "I don't want to play you either." :)

They really didn't like each other, did they?

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 01:56 PM
OK the bagels I missed were one Navratilova gave Evert in 1978 in Atlanta on carpet in a match Evert still won. Martina bageled her in the middle set and Chris came back to win anyway.

The other was the Hana one mentioned above.

The other was shockingly Shriver of all people in a late 1987 win.

BTURNER
05-09-2009, 05:13 PM
Okay Here's what I think is the complete list besides the five bagels Evert gave Martina. Austin did it. King, Mandlikova, and Wade gave her an oval set score. So did Helga Mastoff, Seles and Sanchez. The two mystery names are Mona Schallau and a Laurie Tenny.

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 05:18 PM
Okay Here's what I think is the complete list besides the five bagels Evert gave Martina. Austin did it. King, Mandlikova, and Wade gave her an oval set score. So did Helga Mastoff, Seles and Sanchez. The two mystery names are Mona Schallau and a Laurie Tenny.

According to her leading internet fan site:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerS.html

and the WTA site:

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/2/players/playerprofiles/PlayerActivity.asp

She was a bageled in the 3rd set of a Carpet final to Shriver in November 1987.


I know the fan site is probably more accurate than the WTA site which is loaded with errors but both have the same result in this case. My revised "gave Chris bagels" list would be:

Martina Navratilova five times: four times on carpet- once in 1975, once in 1978, twice in 1983. Once on clay in 1984.

Margaret Court once: one time on grass in 1972

Tracy Austin once: one time on carpet in 1980

Evonne Goolagong three times: one time on clay in 1973, twice on grass in 1974

Billie Jean King once: one time on grass in 1973

Pam Shriver once: one time on carpet in 1987

Hana Mandlikova once: one time on hard courts in 1989

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 05:24 PM
Okay Here's what I think is the complete list besides the five bagels Evert gave Martina. Austin did it. King, Mandlikova, and Wade gave her an oval set score. So did Helga Mastoff, Seles and Sanchez. The two mystery names are Mona Schallau and a Laurie Tenny.

Her fan site says that she is 5-0 vs Schallau:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerS.html

3-0 vs Tenney and in fact 4 bagels and 2 breadsticks all in Evert's favor is all they ever had:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerT.html

Her fans site also says she is 7-0 vs Masthoff and never lost a set:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerM.html

I am pretty sure Seles never gave her a bagel. Seles's only win or only sets won were in that Houston match and she didnt win a bagel set in that match. Sanchez didnt either. Both gave Evert a breadstick in their wins over her but not a bagel.

Here is the final game of Seles's over win over Evert which shows the score as Seles starts to serve for the match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcGfXThqzD8

CEvertFan
05-09-2009, 06:07 PM
Her fan site says that she is 5-0 vs Schallau:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerS.html

3-0 vs Tenney and in fact 4 bagels and 2 breadsticks all in Evert's favor is all they ever had:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerT.html

Her fans site also says she is 7-0 vs Masthoff and never lost a set:

http://chrisevert.net/PlayerM.html

I am pretty sure Seles never gave her a bagel. Seles's only win or only sets won were in that Houston match and she didnt win a bagel set in that match. Sanchez didnt either. Both gave Evert a breadstick in their wins over her but not a bagel.

Here is the final game of Seles's over win over Evert which shows the score as Seles starts to serve for the match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcGfXThqzD8

Evert only played Seles twice, that match in Houston where Evert lost in 3 sets and the US Open match where it was Evert handing out a bagel to Seles in probably the last best match she ever played. She moved and hit so well that day and kept Seles out of her comfort zone. Good stuff.

Here are the wins over Schallau:

MONA SCHALLAU, later Guerrant (USA) 5:0

1974 Wimbledon 3R W 7-5, 6-1
1975 Akron, OH 2R W 6-3, 6-1
1975 Houston, TX QF W 6-0, 6-2
1975 Rye, NY QF W 6-0, 6-4
1976 Philadelphia, PA 2R W 6-1, 6-3

and Tenney:

LAURIE TENNEY (USA) 3:0

1972 U.S. Open 1R W 6-1, 6-1
1973 Atlantic City, NJ SF W 6-0, 6-0
1974 Toronto, Ontario QF W 6-0, 6-0

The only bagels I see are the ones given by Evert.

BTURNER
05-09-2009, 08:25 PM
"Okay Here's what I think is the complete list besides the five bagels Evert gave Martina. Austin did it. King, Mandlikova, and Wade gave her an oval set score. So did Helga Mastoff, Seles and Sanchez. The two mystery names are Mona Schallau and a Laurie Tenny"

You completely missed the subject of that post. Or I miscommunicated Those were the people who gave MARTINA NAVRATILOVA bagels. Evert handed martina 5 these other women each did the dirty deed once to MARTINA.

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Wow it is pretty amazing a player like Laurie Tenney who could only get 2 games off Evert in 3 matches (that is one of the biggest series of beatdowns I can think of ever between players on tour) was able to hand Martina Navratilova at any point in her career a bagel. Pretty amazing stat.

BTURNER
05-09-2009, 09:57 PM
From Martina's Head to Head
Laurie Tenney (US) - 1:1
1973 Miami Beach, Fla., USA 1R L 3-6 0-6
1975 Orlando, Fla., USA 3R W 6-3 6-3

CEvertFan
05-09-2009, 10:15 PM
"Okay Here's what I think is the complete list besides the five bagels Evert gave Martina. Austin did it. King, Mandlikova, and Wade gave her an oval set score. So did Helga Mastoff, Seles and Sanchez. The two mystery names are Mona Schallau and a Laurie Tenny"

You completely missed the subject of that post. Or I miscommunicated Those were the people who gave MARTINA NAVRATILOVA bagels. Evert handed martina 5 these other women each did the dirty deed once to MARTINA.

You're right, I misunderstood.

grafselesfan
05-09-2009, 10:25 PM
Seles would have been perhaps the biggest nightmare opponent for Navratilova even in Martina's prime. Playing Martina would basically be all about passing well, returning serve well, and keeping her off the net. Nobody would do those 3 things combined better than Monica Seles. Seles passes better than anyone in history other than maybe Chris Evert. She returns serve better and more offensively than anyone in history. She is equally powerful and strong off both sides so you dont know which side to approach or serve to. Seles doesnt have quite as strong a serve as Navratilova or Graf, but it is alot stronger than Chris's, and it is strong enough it will be hard to come in off the serve which Martina liked to do on her opponents serve. Few women could match the consistent depth of Seles so there would be little opportunity to approach the net and get into good position. Seles is also mentally tougher than a prime Martina. Finally to top all that of Martina uses the leftiness advantage in her game extremely well. Seles herself is a lefty, this negates all of Martina's lefty advantages. On the flip side the best way to play Seles, both prime pre stabbing Seles and post stabbing Seles is to try to get her on the move and take advantage of her less than stellar court coverage and overall defensive play. Martina trying to play short points and attack all the time, and not offensive enough from the baseline when forced back there too long, would not be able to do these things that bother Monica typically. Of course Martina is such a great player she would still have some success, but I think a prime Seles is probably the last person even a prime Martina would want to face. The ultimate bad matchup for her of anyone, including a prime Evert, prime Graf, or anyone one can think of.

LDVTennis
05-09-2009, 11:00 PM
Seles passes better than anyone in history other than maybe Chris Evert.

I think Martina in her prime takes advantage of Seles' lack of athleticism as much as she took advantage of Chris'.

If Martina couldn't hit an outright winner on the volley, she would tend to hit the volley short, almost on purpose. She still won a lot of points that way because the women of her era didn't seem to have the footspeed to pick those balls up.

The first player who really made her pay for that was Steffi. In fact, Steffi would almost tempt Martina into hitting the volley short with a low backhand slice. Steffi would then cover the short volley with her forehand. This is not a passing shot combination that Seles could have ever imagined because she just didn't have the quickness to come up for anything short.

DMan
05-10-2009, 12:32 AM
Chris was the Bagel Queen!

She has the ditinction of routing her two biggest rivals 6-0,6-0. Chris did it to Martina at Amelia Island in 1981, and to Austin the following year in the Toyota Championships. Numerous other players suffered double bagel losses.

And I think Chris beat many of the top players she faced with the loss of a single game. I know she beat Wade, Goolagong, Casals, Barker, Durr losing just a single game.

CEvertFan
05-10-2009, 01:28 PM
I was looking over Martina's H2Hs and I found another bagel. M.J. Fernandez gave Martina one in Dalls in '89 even though she still lost the match. The win for Martina was 7-5, 0-6, 6-1.

So we can now add Fernandez to the list.

BTURNER
05-10-2009, 08:50 PM
Now someone who has the entire H to H records for Graf and Seles, williams etc needs to get to work!!

thalivest
05-10-2009, 09:05 PM
I was looking over Martina's H2Hs and I found another bagel. M.J. Fernandez gave Martina one in Dalls in '89 even though she still lost the match. The win for Martina was 7-5, 0-6, 6-1.

So we can now add Fernandez to the list.

Mary Joe Fernandez also fed peak Seles a bagel during a slam semifinal of 1 of the 6 slams she won in 91 and 92. It was in the semis of the 91 Australian Open, she bageled Seles in the 2nd set, and had a match point in the 3rd set, but couldnt close Seles out.

BTURNER
05-10-2009, 10:58 PM
so to condense it
Evert's bagels=13

Martina Navratilova 5 times:
Margaret Court 1
Tracy Austin 1
Evonne Goolagong 3
Billie Jean King 1
Pam Shriver 1
Hana Mandlikova 1

Navratilova's Bagels= 15

Evert: 5 times
MJ Fernandez: 1
Austin:1
King;!
Wade:1
Mandlikova:1
Seles:1
Sanchez:1
Mastoff:1
Mona Schallau :1
Laurie Tenny:1

CEvertFan
05-11-2009, 03:07 PM
so to condense it
Evert's bagels=13

Martina Navratilova 5 times:
Margaret Court 1
Tracy Austin 1
Evonne Goolagong 3
Billie Jean King 1
Pam Shriver 1
Hana Mandlikova 1

Navratilova's Bagels= 15

Evert: 5 times
MJ Fernandez: 1
Austin:1
King;!
Wade:1
Mandlikova:1
Seles:1
Sanchez:1
Mastoff:1
Mona Schallau :1
Laurie Tenny:1

I'd take Evert's bagels over Navratilova's anyday. At least all of Evert's bagels came from quality players.

grafrules
05-11-2009, 03:48 PM
Anyone know all the players who bageled Graf?

Lionheart392
05-11-2009, 05:12 PM
Anyone know all the players who bageled Graf?

Interesting question. Off the top of my head I can only think of Sanchez Vicario at the 1991 French Open, Seles at the 1995 US Open, and Austin when Graf was 13.

EDIT: Amanda Coetzer also bagelled Graf in 1997 in Berlin.

grafrules
05-11-2009, 05:34 PM
Interesting question. Off the top of my head I can only think of Sanchez Vicario at the 1991 French Open, Seles at the 1995 US Open, and Austin when Graf was 13.

EDIT: Amanda Coetzer also bagelled Graf in 1997 in Berlin.

I am pretty sure she ate alot of bagels from 1983-1985.

CEvertFan
05-12-2009, 01:17 AM
Interesting question. Off the top of my head I can only think of Sanchez Vicario at the 1991 French Open, Seles at the 1995 US Open, and Austin when Graf was 13.

EDIT: Amanda Coetzer also bagelled Graf in 1997 in Berlin.

Add Capriati to the list - Jennifer did it in '93 even though she lost the match - the score was 6-1, 0-6, 6-3 for Graf.

Sandra Cecchini did it in '84 even though she lost the match.

Daniels (can't find the first name) did it in '84 even though she lost the match.

Jo Durie did it in '83 and won the match as well but Graf was only what, 14? LOL.

Sabine Hack did it in '93 at the German Open but lost the match.

Kohde-Kilsch did it in '84 and won the match.

Mould (no first name) did it in '83 and won the match.

Roz Fairbank did it in '84 but lost the match.

Sanchez-Vicario did it twice, winning one of the matches and losing one.

Seles did it once in '95, but lost the match.

Austin did it once in '83 when Steffi was 13.

Coetzer did it once in '97 and won the match.

That's what I could come up with which makes 13 bagels for Graf, same as Evert. The only player to do it more than once is Sanchez-Vicario and neither Evert nor Navratilova ever did it to Steffi, and she never did it to them either.

I don't know how accurate the list of opponents and matches is but I got the stats from http://www.sgisc.com/

suwanee4712
05-12-2009, 10:16 AM
They really didn't like each other, did they?


They had their moments, but the story I told from Indian Wells was actually one of respect. I think Indian Wells was Chris' first tournament of the year and she didn't want to have to play Hana in her first match. From Hana's point of view, Chris was the toughest opponent she ever faced. Hana told that story at Amelia Island in 1989 and laughed about it. So I definitely think it was a light moment between the two. They played Wimbledon together that year and I found a copy of Hana's instructional book that she wrote with Betty Stove and there was a pic of Chris and Hana playing doubles together. That alone made my day!


In Hana's book, her main gripe about Chris is one that several other players have actually said about Chris, including Pam who is a friend of Chris'. When you're young and new to the tour, Chris is very sweet and encouraging. But the moment that she senses that you could be a serious threat to her, she can turn cold. You always have to remember that Chris is a competitor first and foremost. She didn't spare people's feelings when it came to tennis. Martina had to learn this about her too. But one thing that Martina and Hana seem to share from their culture is that they take things literally and at face value. It was hard to for them to learn how to seperate a real friendship from a real rivalry. If Nancy Lieberman hadn't come along, I'm not sure that Martina would've ever caught up to Chris.

I don't know if the are having each other over for barbeques, but Hana and Chris are neighbors at the Polo Club. And now that Chris has married Greg Norman, they are also neighbors at Sanctuary Cove in Australia. Despite all fo the poo pooing of Hana's Aussie marriage and citizenship, she still owns a house in that subdivision.

BTURNER
05-12-2009, 03:38 PM
If you tell a player you don't want to face them, its usually a compliment. I don't think anyone enjoyed seeing Hana in their draw, particularly if you are a little rusty from a break. I can't imagine Chris saying something deliberately rude. Its not her style and she doesn't play those juvenile psyche games.

CEvertFan
05-12-2009, 04:40 PM
I am pretty sure she ate alot of bagels from 1983-1985.

Not as many as you thought.

CEvertFan
05-12-2009, 04:44 PM
They had their moments, but the story I told from Indian Wells was actually one of respect. I think Indian Wells was Chris' first tournament of the year and she didn't want to have to play Hana in her first match. From Hana's point of view, Chris was the toughest opponent she ever faced. Hana told that story at Amelia Island in 1989 and laughed about it. So I definitely think it was a light moment between the two. They played Wimbledon together that year and I found a copy of Hana's instructional book that she wrote with Betty Stove and there was a pic of Chris and Hana playing doubles together. That alone made my day!


In Hana's book, her main gripe about Chris is one that several other players have actually said about Chris, including Pam who is a friend of Chris'. When you're young and new to the tour, Chris is very sweet and encouraging. But the moment that she senses that you could be a serious threat to her, she can turn cold. You always have to remember that Chris is a competitor first and foremost. She didn't spare people's feelings when it came to tennis. Martina had to learn this about her too. But one thing that Martina and Hana seem to share from their culture is that they take things literally and at face value. It was hard to for them to learn how to seperate a real friendship from a real rivalry. If Nancy Lieberman hadn't come along, I'm not sure that Martina would've ever caught up to Chris.

I don't know if the are having each other over for barbeques, but Hana and Chris are neighbors at the Polo Club. And now that Chris has married Greg Norman, they are also neighbors at Sanctuary Cove in Australia. Despite all fo the poo pooing of Hana's Aussie marriage and citizenship, she still owns a house in that subdivision.


Evert is no different than any of the other players. Once you see that person as a threat you have to put your tennis first because it's what they did for a living. I know Evert and Navratilova always maintained their friendship even though they went through a few rough patches at times. Their story is unique though, as most people wouldn't be able to be fierce rivals AND friends at the same time. It's just too difficult for most people to separate the two.

Martina said something very interesting in an interview once about Chris and their friendship. She looked forward to the day where they were both retired and could sit around and just talk to one another over a bottle of good wine without the rivalry getting in the way.

grafrules
05-12-2009, 05:37 PM
Not as many as you thought.

Yeah I would have figured there would be more given how young she turned pro, and how she seemed to be a slow developer in the early years compared to some of the other teen phenoms. I guess with the power of her forehand, it would be hard to bagel her though, even in her barely teenage years. Her forehand probably always won her some points vs any opponent.

DMan
05-12-2009, 11:30 PM
They had their moments, but the story I told from Indian Wells was actually one of respect. I think Indian Wells was Chris' first tournament of the year and she didn't want to have to play Hana in her first match. From Hana's point of view, Chris was the toughest opponent she ever faced. Hana told that story at Amelia Island in 1989 and laughed about it. So I definitely think it was a light moment between the two. They played Wimbledon together that year and I found a copy of Hana's instructional book that she wrote with Betty Stove and there was a pic of Chris and Hana playing doubles together. That alone made my day!


In Hana's book, her main gripe about Chris is one that several other players have actually said about Chris, including Pam who is a friend of Chris'. When you're young and new to the tour, Chris is very sweet and encouraging. But the moment that she senses that you could be a serious threat to her, she can turn cold. You always have to remember that Chris is a competitor first and foremost. She didn't spare people's feelings when it came to tennis. Martina had to learn this about her too. But one thing that Martina and Hana seem to share from their culture is that they take things literally and at face value. It was hard to for them to learn how to seperate a real friendship from a real rivalry. If Nancy Lieberman hadn't come along, I'm not sure that Martina would've ever caught up to Chris.

I don't know if the are having each other over for barbeques, but Hana and Chris are neighbors at the Polo Club. And now that Chris has married Greg Norman, they are also neighbors at Sanctuary Cove in Australia. Despite all fo the poo pooing of Hana's Aussie marriage and citizenship, she still owns a house in that subdivision.

Chris Evert would be the first one to confirm that's exactly the way she was. A cold-hearted competitor.

suwanee4712
05-13-2009, 09:34 AM
Evert is no different than any of the other players. Once you see that person as a threat you have to put your tennis first because it's what they did for a living. I know Evert and Navratilova always maintained their friendship even though they went through a few rough patches at times. Their story is unique though, as most people wouldn't be able to be fierce rivals AND friends at the same time. It's just too difficult for most people to separate the two.

Martina said something very interesting in an interview once about Chris and their friendship. She looked forward to the day where they were both retired and could sit around and just talk to one another over a bottle of good wine without the rivalry getting in the way.


Don't get me wrong. I wasn't putting down Chris. She was what she was. To her credit, she was a fierce competitor. As her one time best pal poor little Kimmer Shaw once found out after Chris double bagled her, she spared no one, nor their feelings.

Hana and Pam both also said that Chris wasn't above giving an opponent a good ribbing about not being able to beat her. Both suggested it wasn't just a good natured type of thing, but something that a psychological predator would do to keep an edge. Pam and Hana made the mistake of sometimes taking these too personally and saying something in public instead of handling it privately. Because Chris did as she did privately, she was able to steer clear of any blame and was often cast as the woman wronged. She was a master manipulator and has to be the smartest professional tennis player ever. Again, that's all to her credit.

I think some of this is probably true. Because in Chris' retirement, she has often talked about not having to be a certain way towards others anymore.

And, yes, of the very top players, I don't think many of them were very different in this respect. As Ted Tinling said, all the great women players are "*****es." ;)

boredone3456
05-13-2009, 10:41 AM
Now someone who has the entire H to H records for Graf and Seles, williams etc needs to get to work!!

In the entire Williams Sisters rivalry I found only one bagel, the one that Venus fed Serena at the Tour Championships last year. Venus however has fed her sister 5 breadsticks if my count is correct and she won every match in which she did either of those things to Serena. Serena won the match she breadsticked Venus. All of the ones Venus fed Serena were on hardcourts. Serena's one served up breadstick to Venus was on hard as well. Pretty surprising since the H2H currently stands even at 10-10.

scootad.
05-13-2009, 11:27 AM
Have either Williams sister been double bageled?

CEvertFan
05-13-2009, 09:12 PM
In the entire Williams Sisters rivalry I found only one bagel, the one that Venus fed Serena at the Tour Championships last year. Venus however has fed her sister 5 breadsticks if my count is correct and she won every match in which she did either of those things to Serena. Serena won the match she breadsticked Venus. All of the ones Venus fed Serena were on hardcourts. Serena's one served up breadstick to Venus was on hard as well. Pretty surprising since the H2H currently stands even at 10-10.


That H2H has all been carefully scripted I'm sure. I'm of the school of thought that at least some of their matches, if not all of them, have a predetermined outcome that's decided by them and their father and possibly mother too.

I know it's hard to play against your beloved sister, that goes without saying, but I've seen it too many times now where one sister is way ahead and suddenly starts making nothing but errors as if losing on purpose. Almost all of their Grand Slam tournament finals have been major letdowns.

CEvertFan
05-13-2009, 09:20 PM
Don't get me wrong. I wasn't putting down Chris. She was what she was. To her credit, she was a fierce competitor. As her one time best pal poor little Kimmer Shaw once found out after Chris double bagled her, she spared no one, nor their feelings.

Hana and Pam both also said that Chris wasn't above giving an opponent a good ribbing about not being able to beat her. Both suggested it wasn't just a good natured type of thing, but something that a psychological predator would do to keep an edge. Pam and Hana made the mistake of sometimes taking these too personally and saying something in public instead of handling it privately. Because Chris did as she did privately, she was able to steer clear of any blame and was often cast as the woman wronged. She was a master manipulator and has to be the smartest professional tennis player ever. Again, that's all to her credit.

I think some of this is probably true. Because in Chris' retirement, she has often talked about not having to be a certain way towards others anymore.

And, yes, of the very top players, I don't think many of them were very different in this respect. As Ted Tinling said, all the great women players are "*****es." ;)


I never said you were putting her down. Evert was utterly ruthless on the court. She would have whupped her own mother if she had to play her professionally and wouldn't have batted an eyelash. She was THAT mentally tough.


I love what Martina says about Evert in her autobiography, Martina. She says and I quote: "By the time she turned 18 she was well known as America's Sweetheart or America's Ice Princess - take your pick - and she possessed a two-handed backhand that could cut your heart out without you feeling it, and a warm smile that said, "Nothing personal". "

thalivest
05-13-2009, 09:45 PM
That H2H has all been carefully scripted I'm sure. I'm of the school of thought that at least some of their matches, if not all of them, have a predetermined outcome that's decided by them and their father and possibly mother too.

I know it's hard to play against your beloved sister, that goes without saying, but I've seen it too many times now where one sister is way ahead and suddenly starts making nothing but errors as if losing on purpose. Almost all of their Grand Slam tournament finals have been major letdowns.

Their rivalry is an embarassment. Their U.S Open match last year disugsted me in every sense, probably more than even their awful and much lower quality Wimbledon semifinal in 2000. The way Venus purposely gave away the end of both sets.....I would have considered fining them both for match fixing if I thought there was half of chance of getting away with. It is amazing since both are very mentally strong players, even when out of shape, that they arent able to get past the sister thing when they play each other.

As much a dissapointment as the Williams underachieving is the best thing about it is we got to avoid the horror of seeing them play in virtually every slam final outside the French (where Henin would have prevented it atleast some of the time) every year. It was wonderful as far as I am concerned to have them go almost 5 years playing only 1 match, and that only a mere quarterfinal of a tier 1 event. What a welcome relief.

pmerk34
05-14-2009, 06:01 AM
Their rivalry is an embarassment. Their U.S Open match last year disugsted me in every sense, probably more than even their awful and much lower quality Wimbledon semifinal in 2000. The way Venus purposely gave away the end of both sets.....I would have considered fining them both for match fixing if I thought there was half of chance of getting away with. It is amazing since both are very mentally strong players, even when out of shape, that they arent able to get past the sister thing when they play each other.

As much a dissapointment as the Williams underachieving is the best thing about it is we got to avoid the horror of seeing them play in virtually every slam final outside the French (where Henin would have prevented it atleast some of the time) every year. It was wonderful as far as I am concerned to have them go almost 5 years playing only 1 match, and that only a mere quarterfinal of a tier 1 event. What a welcome relief.

At least Henin didn't shriek when she played.

boredone3456
05-14-2009, 09:20 AM
Have either Williams sister been double bageled?

As far as I know, Neither have ever been double bageled. However both have been fed bagels throughout their career, Venus has been bageled twice by both Davenport and Hingis, Serena by her sister, Li Na I believe. I won't go into the breadsticks both have been handed. but no neither that I know of have been handed a double.

suwanee4712
05-14-2009, 03:55 PM
I never said you were putting her down. Evert was utterly ruthless on the court. She would have whupped her own mother if she had to play her professionally and wouldn't have batted an eyelash. She was THAT mentally tough.


I love what Martina says about Evert in her autobiography, Martina. She says and I quote: "By the time she turned 18 she was well known as America's Sweetheart or America's Ice Princess - take your pick - and she possessed a two-handed backhand that could cut your heart out without you feeling it, and a warm smile that said, "Nothing personal". "


Yes, that was a great line. And you can see that sometimes, can't you?

One of my favorite lines about Chrissie was from Pam. She said that Chris is nasty in just the right way. "She's classy nasty." :)

CEvertFan
05-14-2009, 05:48 PM
Yes, that was a great line. And you can see that sometimes, can't you?

One of my favorite lines about Chrissie was from Pam. She said that Chris is nasty in just the right way. "She's classy nasty." :)

LOL, that fits Evert well. Pam always did have a way with words.

thalivest
05-14-2009, 09:17 PM
Pam is my favorite women commentator as well! Thank goodness for her too, without her that lousy ESPN team otherwise made up of the clowniest of clowns would be just unbearable.

BTURNER
05-15-2009, 06:20 AM
Back to the subject of Evert. The only a few tactical or strategic changes I would have encouraged in her game. She should have incorporated some of Connors surprise approaches off second serve return and the occasional s/v point thrown in. Chris should definitely have been more aggressive returning the second serves of Sabatini, Austin, and even the younger Graf, let alone lesser players. A lot of cheap points to be had on 30/40 points. Evert could have kept players more honest on their returns, had she threatened to put away floating returns with a volley. She sure followed her serve to the net in doubles. Why not on grass vs Martina take the net away occasionally, using her first serve to approach on. Give players something else to think about. From the ground, can't improve on perfection.

In rebuttal of my own post, Cliff Drysdale used to say something interesting about Evert. " Chris understands beter than anyone else her own limitations, and stays within them better." He meant it as a compliment, suggesting that it was a key to her success that she not try to become someone she wasn't and induce errors and internal questions of confidence. I still think a skill she had already acquired in countless doubles matches, could have been employed here and there in singles to great affect.

CEvertFan
05-15-2009, 07:32 AM
Back to the subject of Evert. The only a few tactical or strategic changes I would have encouraged in her game. She should have incorporated some of Connors surprise approaches off second serve return and the occasional s/v point thrown in. Chris should definitely have been more aggressive returning the second serves of Sabatini, Austin, and even the younger Graf, let alone lesser players. A lot of cheap points to be had on 30/40 points. Evert could have kept players more honest on their returns, had she threatened to put away floating returns with a volley. She sure followed her serve to the net in doubles. Why not on grass vs Martina take the net away occasionally, using her first serve to approach on. Give players something else to think about. From the ground, can't improve on perfection.

In rebuttal of my own post, Cliff Drysdale used to say something interesting about Evert. " Chris understands beter than anyone else her own limitations, and stays within them better." He meant it as a compliment, suggesting that it was a key to her success that she not try to become someone she wasn't and induce errors and internal questions of confidence. I still think a skill she had already acquired in countless doubles matches, could have been employed here and there in singles to great affect.

She did incorporate more net play later in her career but when things got tight against a tough foe she relied on her strengths. She was never going to be a great net player but she could volley well when she wanted to.

I do agree with you to a degree but I think she didn't do it more against Graf because she knew the Steffi forehand would be too much for her to handle at the net and in order to approach to the backhand she'd have to hit a great approach shot.

BTURNER
05-15-2009, 08:08 AM
I think Evert did a great job coming in off approach shots. but short second serves she received, or her own serve, she consistently ignored as opportunies.

CEvertFan
05-15-2009, 02:05 PM
I think Evert did a great job coming in off approach shots. but short second serves she received, or her own serve, she consistently ignored as opportunies.

It would have been a good tactic to use and would have surprised the heck out of Martina. Navratilova was really good at doing that to Evert's serve, especially the second serve. She'd chip it deep and charge right to the net.

BTURNER
05-15-2009, 02:16 PM
Folks knew all they had to do was get Evert's serve back fairly deep. Didn't matter the pace of the return, and the height over the net or really where that return went, as long as Evert didn't end up with a short ball to take control oft he rally with. . They also were fairly confident their goal on a second serve to Chris was to get it in, and again, not have it embarrassingly short in the box. Connors kept them guessing about his intent, and so should Evert.

thalivest
05-15-2009, 03:09 PM
It would have been a good tactic to use and would have surprised the heck out of Martina. Navratilova was really good at doing that to Evert's serve, especially the second serve. She'd chip it deep and charge right to the net.

Are you suggesting she should have come in behind even her own second serve though? That would have been a risky play as Evert's second serve was less than great to put it kindly. That is the reason Martina was using the opportunity to come in off it.

BTURNER
05-15-2009, 04:23 PM
No first serve. Everyone played a percentage return down the center with lots of margin, including Martina. It would have been an easy one to move forward and volley occasionally. Remember Evert was used to doing in in doubles which she played in many slams so it wasn't that foreign a movement. I agree with you about her second serve being too weak. She should chip and charge other's second delivery once in awhile too. Or more accurately pound and charge. Pundits say it is often the shortest ball you are going to get...

CEvertFan
05-15-2009, 05:03 PM
Are you suggesting she should have come in behind even her own second serve though? That would have been a risky play as Evert's second serve was less than great to put it kindly. That is the reason Martina was using the opportunity to come in off it.

Certainly not on Evert's own second serve (which just wasn't strong enough) but she could have come to the net off her own first serve sometimes and definitely should have attacked her opponent's second serve sometimes too and followed a strong return to the net. It's a good tactic to use and it would have kept her opponents more off balance, especially a serve/volley player like Martina. Martina certainly had no problem attacking Evert's second serve and did it to great affect and I think Evert could have returned the favor to great success herself, particularly attacking with her backhand off a second serve to Martina's backhand.

At least later in her career she did try to come to the net more at some point during the rally and did become a bit more of an all around player, although she was always going to be a baseliner at heart.

BTURNER
05-15-2009, 05:31 PM
Now the tougher question, had you been Martina's coach, what would you have had her do differently or add to her repetoire. Frankly, I can't think of any tactic or shot she could not employ or did not do so enough, so well rounded was her game. I would change absolutely nothing.

Arafel
05-15-2009, 06:24 PM
Now the tougher question, had you been Martina's coach, what would you have had her do differently or add to her repetoire. Frankly, I can't think of any tactic or shot she could not employ or did not do so enough, so well rounded was her game. I would change absolutely nothing.

She needed to work on her mental game. The ultimate player would combine Evert's mental toughness with Martina's superior athleticism. As strong as Martina was athletically, she was also somewhat fragile mentally. It's a little amazing to me that she got her &hit together enough to dominate the tour for four years.

Martina actually lost two US Open finals by almost identical scores, with her opponent taking both sets in tiebreaks (Austin 1-6, 7-6, 7-6 and Mandlikova 7-6, 1-6, 7-6).

It was sort of interesting too, because there could be times where Martina would be blitzing an opponent and then she'd make an error or two and then all of a sudden get really tight.

Evert, on the other hand, while not possessing the sheer raw athletic ability of Martina, was, to this day in my mind, the toughest competitor mentally, even more so than Borg. Except for a rare case or two (US Open final 1984 and maybe the 78 Wimbledon final) I can't really think of a match Chris lost because her nerve failed her. In fact, Evert possessed an uncanny ability to up her game when she got in trouble, and it threw her opponents into disarray quite frequently. When she got down, Evert started hitting harder.

CEvertFan
05-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Now the tougher question, had you been Martina's coach, what would you have had her do differently or add to her repetoire. Frankly, I can't think of any tactic or shot she could not employ or did not do so enough, so well rounded was her game. I would change absolutely nothing.

Martina's game was great and I wouldn't really have changed anything either if I was her coach. She used the court well, her serve was great, her volleys were the best ever she had great footwork and footspeed and she could hang from the baseline until an opportunity to come to the net presented itself. She could have used a more consistent forehand volley and definitely could have been a bit more mentally tough but I feel like I'm nitpicking. She did get mentally stronger, once she got more physically fit, than she was for most of the 70s.

grafselesfan
05-16-2009, 03:52 AM
Martina's backhand wasnt that strong. She would have struggled in an era with more extreme power baseliners like Graf, Seles, Williams, or Davenport who could attack her backhand whenever she was stuck hanging back. Evert is an amazing baseliner of course but didnt have the all out power to crucify Martina's often defensive and fragile backhand. Of the 10 greatest women players all time Martina has the least strong backhand of all 10, including even King who isnt known for her ground game but whoses backhand was her stronger side.

CEvertFan
05-16-2009, 04:03 AM
Martina's backhand wasnt that strong. She would have struggled in an era with more extreme power baseliners like Graf, Seles, Williams, or Davenport who could attack her backhand whenever she was stuck hanging back. Evert is an amazing baseliner of course but didnt have the all out power to crucify Martina's often defensive and fragile backhand. Of the 10 greatest women players all time Martina has the least strong backhand of all 10, including even King who isnt known for her ground game but whoses backhand was her stronger side.

Martina had a great slice backhand of her own and was almost as fast as Graf when in her prime so if the slice wasn't really that much of a hindrance to Graf as some have pointed out, I don't see how it would be to Navratilova either.

grafselesfan
05-16-2009, 04:21 AM
Martina had a great slice backhand of her own and was almost as fast as Graf when in her prime so if the slice wasn't really that much of a hindrance to Graf as some have pointed out, I don't see how it would be to Navratilova either.

I understand your point but Graf's slice was alot firmer and more durable IMO. Martina had a very good slice backhand of course and it was just fine when she wasnt being rushed which hardly anyone in that era could hit with enough sheer force to do consistently, but could pop up and fall short when it was pressured. That is one reason Evert should have attacked the net more herself with a penetrating approach to the Martina backhand. If Martina could get to the net fast enough it wouldnt matter much, but alot of power targeting that side, I think could have been big problems for her. There wasnt anyone in her time that really did that, not even Chris or Hana as good as they were.

Also even Graf's backhand was a problem for her when she played a prime or near prime Martina serving to that side attacking the net off that side relentlessly in their big matches in 86-87, when she played a prime Seles pressuring that side with ruthless baseline hitting on non grass surfaces in big matches in 91-92, and when she played Venus and Davenport doing the same at the very end of her career.

BTURNER
05-16-2009, 06:17 AM
I think Martina's backhand was slightly more versatile than Steffi's. She could rally with both her top and her slice at will, depending on the surface and her mood. She could and did hit 5 or 10 more topsins in a row and feel comfortable. 'She could pass more consistently a flat backhand or chip it low at incoming volleyers feet. Martina instinctively used it in ways that Steffi had to think through because Martina molded hers in an era 2/3 of the sport had one-handed slices and were s/v's.Just watching Court, King and Goolagong etc employ it on grass and clay was an education in how to mix up patterns Graf, could never get. Anything Steffi could do with her's, Martina could do with equal ease except Graf, when she hit that flat or topspin could generate a little more power. Martina was prone to errors, not because of the stroke but because mental lapses, Graf did not have as frequently. Hard hitters definitely drove both women to hit short occasionally, that's true of virtually any one handed backhand without the impact control of that second wrist on the racket. Evert would approach Martina's backhand, because she could READ direction of the pass ( an advantage 80 matches and being doubles partners offers) and it offered a millisecond more to react to the shot than the forehand.
I am a fan of Graf's backhand slice, and view it as basically a successful stroke. It was potent, and steady and consistently deep. It was extraordinarily accurate, close to the lines and did most of the work in exhausting her opponents who played to it. But it was less versatile, in part because the demands of the time were quite different. The s/v's she dealt with, just weren't as experienced as the ones Martina did. Subsequently, the responses/ patterns did not need to be as varied. Hell, because of her foot speed Graf just whacked a forehand from any part of the court including the backhand corner. Martina and her 70's mentors couldn't even dream of that.

suwanee4712
05-16-2009, 10:14 PM
I have always felt that Steffi's and Martina's respective backhands are looked upon as weaknesses mostly because it was being compared to their forehands. But I don't think that necessarily means that it was weak. Even during the wood era in the 70's, you had to fear Martina's forehand especially serving her out wide. She could drive the ball well with a flat backhand. But she only really started putting a lot of top spin on it when she switched to the mid size Yonex. In the 80's, she wasn't challenged as much to use it except by players like Mandlikova, Sukova, Shriver, etc. But she did a great job of learning how to return flat and top spin againt those players. In the 90's, she began using it more during baseline rallies and even learned how to get around the edge of the ball for the short angles. For her, it was a decent shot that got better later in her career, in my opinion.

Steffi's slice backhand was a wonderful tool for manuvering opponents around. There were many 2 handed backhand players that found themselves being jerked around the court and having to reach for a low, skidding sliced balls that gave Steffi a chance to step around for a reverse angle forehand. Up until around 1995 or so, I thought Steffi had good days and bad days with her topspin backhand. Sometimes she was just technically bad in trying to whip the racquet head through the shot especially going crosscourt, which somtimes ended up right in the middle of the court.

Both could've had more effective backhand passes had they been willing to hit more top spin backhand lobs.

obanaghan
05-20-2009, 06:59 AM
Martina was not that fragile mentally. Definitely after 1981 and working with Nancy Lieberman she was physically fit, technically and strategically sound and won 2/4 in 82, 3/4 in 83 and 84, 2/4 in 85 and 2/3 in 86. What always surprises me when you look at the 3 set matches between MN and CE in this period at the Slams it was MN who won more, far more. 1981 US and Aussie MN over CE both in 3 sets. In 1982 MN in 3 over CE at W and CE won Aussie in 3 sets. MN won the season ending one in 3 weeks later and then went on a tear against CE where only two of the next twelve were not straight setters.

CE lost the 1985 W and Aussies in three sets to MN, then the 1987 and 1988 W semis in three sets.

CE gets a lot of gloss from the two FO wins in 85 and 86 and good for her she deserved it but head to head she was even at 1 set all with MN in the 80s many times and usually lost.

bluegrasser
05-20-2009, 07:07 AM
I was just watching my DVD of the 85 French Open final between Evert and Navratilova and was really struck by how flat Evert hit her strokes. Though there were women who employed head topspin and moonballs (Jaeger, for instance), Evert hit fairly flat off both wings, and yet she has the record for most French Open titles.

It makes for an interesting contrast with the men of the time. The players who were successful on clay in the 70s and 80s (Borg, Vilas, Wilander and Lendl) all hit with a lot of topspin. I've seen videos of Borg vs. Vilas, and the two practically hit moonballs the entire match. The same can be said of some of the Lendl vs. Wilander matches I've seen.

I loved seeing Chrissie stick it to Martina - MN was always whining, complaining to the crowd for not supporting her enough bla, blah. Chris was more gracious in defeat, really a class person. Funny thing is, I really like Martina in the booth, she's real fair and very insightful.

Arafel
05-20-2009, 07:31 AM
81 US Open final, 82 US Open quarterfinal, 85 US Open final are three off the top of my head where Martina had it and plain blew it, and it was because she got tight. You could also make an argument that MN blew the FO final in 85, since Martina had three break points at five all in the third. (you could make the same argument about Evert; the match should have been over in two sets).

suwanee4712
05-21-2009, 09:25 PM
81 US Open final, 82 US Open quarterfinal, 85 US Open final are three off the top of my head where Martina had it and plain blew it, and it was because she got tight. You could also make an argument that MN blew the FO final in 85, since Martina had three break points at five all in the third. (you could make the same argument about Evert; the match should have been over in two sets).

1981 US Open final? Probably. 1982 US Open QF? There are extinuating circumstances to that one. But how did Martina have the 1985 US Open final? She never had the lead. The closest she came was when she tied it up at a set all. She never held a service game lead nor a service break in the final set, nor in the tiebreak. She did however make a series of marvelous comebacks in that match.

Martina could be mentally fragile at times. But compared to whom? Chris Evert? Everyone is mentally fragile compared to her. BJK could make Martina shake a bit. And later Steffi did the same when she spooked Martina in 1987. Other than that, once Martina became the player she knew she could be, this wasn't a huge problem for her.

So she lost a few close matches? Who hasn't? She won a heckuva lot more close matches and came from behind to win more matches than she lost.

flying24
05-21-2009, 09:30 PM
1981 US Open final? Probably. 1982 US Open QF? There are extinuating circumstances to that one. But how did Martina have the 1985 US Open final? She never had the lead. The closest she came was when she tied it up at a set all. She never held a service game lead nor a service break in the final set, nor in the tiebreak. She did however make a series of marvelous comebacks in that match.

Martina could be mentally fragile at times. But compared to whom? Chris Evert? Everyone is mentally fragile compared to her. BJK could make Martina shake a bit. And later Steffi did the same when she spooked Martina in 1987. Other than that, once Martina became the player she knew she could be, this wasn't a huge problem for her.

So she lost a few close matches? Who hasn't? She won a heckuva lot more close matches and came from behind to win more matches than she lost.

I agree with you. Hana was always even on in the lead in the 1985 U.S Open final. It makes no sense to say Martina blew it. Martina fought very hard to keep an on fire Hana from running away with it and nearly winning it in the end.

The 1981 U.S Open final Martina blew a bit in a way, but then again it was evenly played all through the last 2 sets and Tracy most all the time was even or ahead in those last 2 sets. Martina simply didnt mantain her level of play of the first set, while Tracy raised hers a great deal from the first set for the second and third sets. That isnt neccessarily choking, especialy as the conditions that day were horrible and made for some up and down play. Martina's dominant first set gave her no real advantage for the rest of the match as that is how tennis scoring is.

The 1982 U.S Open she caught a virus before the U.S Open, and the effects of that are what happened during her match with Shriver halfway through.

I wouldnt rate Martina over Chris, Monica, Steffi, King, or perhaps even the Williams and ASV in mental toughness all time but I would rate her easily atleast in the top 10. The choker label she is saddled with is a joke, another example of poor journalism and marketing cliche.

DMan
05-22-2009, 01:04 AM
Back to the subject of Evert. The only a few tactical or strategic changes I would have encouraged in her game. She should have incorporated some of Connors surprise approaches off second serve return and the occasional s/v point thrown in. Chris should definitely have been more aggressive returning the second serves of Sabatini, Austin, and even the younger Graf, let alone lesser players. A lot of cheap points to be had on 30/40 points. Evert could have kept players more honest on their returns, had she threatened to put away floating returns with a volley. She sure followed her serve to the net in doubles. Why not on grass vs Martina take the net away occasionally, using her first serve to approach on. Give players something else to think about. From the ground, can't improve on perfection.

In rebuttal of my own post, Cliff Drysdale used to say something interesting about Evert. " Chris understands beter than anyone else her own limitations, and stays within them better." He meant it as a compliment, suggesting that it was a key to her success that she not try to become someone she wasn't and induce errors and internal questions of confidence. I still think a skill she had already acquired in countless doubles matches, could have been employed here and there in singles to great affect.

I think Drysdale's analysis of Evert was spot on.

Chris is a very conservative person (in more ways than one). Tennis was no exception. Being conservative doesn't mean she played a strictly defensive game. But her tactical approach to matches was very similar throughout her career. Yes, she would try and come in more against Martina or Billie Jean, to take the net away from them. But she wasn't one to just come in off anything, or suddenly rush the net. She came in on a calculating approach shot.

I found it ironic how Chris would often criticize Steffi for not coming in more. Chris should have understood better than anyone about having that internal confidence and belief about coming in, and having a certain reluctance to go outside one's comfort zone.

although I was an Evert fan, I found her match commentary to be droll, and perfectly predictable. She would always so, " she's going to win because she is ranked higher." She could never think outside the box as a commentator. And while I think she was able to exploit opponents' weaknesses, which does show adaptability, the reason she was vulnerable to s & v players throughout her career like Court, Goolagong, King, and Navratilova was that she played with a certain predictability. even net rushers would know her patterns, and could force her into errors.

grafselesfan
05-22-2009, 01:08 AM
I think Graf was an excellent volleyer and should have come in more than she did. I dont mean being a full fledged attacker like Martina, but she failed to exploite her excellent volleying skills. Often even when she got a floater, especialy on clay and hard courts, she stayed back and continued to rally. This stubborn tactic cost her atleast 4 matches I can recall: the 86 U.S Open semifinal to Martina, the 93 Australian Open final to Monica, the 94 U.S Open final to Sanchez Vicario, the 90 Wimbledon semifinal to Garrison.

DMan
05-22-2009, 01:19 AM
I think Graf was an excellent volleyer and should have come in more than she did. I dont mean being a full fledged attacker like Martina, but she failed to exploite her excellent volleying skills. Often even when she got a floater, especialy on clay and hard courts, she stayed back and continued to rally. This stubborn tactic cost her atleast 4 matches I can recall: the 86 U.S Open semifinal to Martina, the 93 Australian Open final to Monica, the 94 U.S Open final to Sanchez Vicario, the 90 Wimbledon semifinal to Garrison.

I don't agree with this assessment.

At the 1986 US Open, Graf lost it by a 1/4" on that match point when she went for a topspin backhand passer, and missed. Sure, there were many matches where Graf might have come in behind a booming forehand. But I don't think she lost matches necessarily due to not coming in more.

The 1994 Open final was a case of Graf's back giving out on her. Zina was too good for Steffi that day at Wimbledon in 1990.

suwanee4712
05-22-2009, 05:25 AM
I think Drysdale's analysis of Evert was spot on.

Chris is a very conservative person (in more ways than one). Tennis was no exception. Being conservative doesn't mean she played a strictly defensive game. But her tactical approach to matches was very similar throughout her career. Yes, she would try and come in more against Martina or Billie Jean, to take the net away from them. But she wasn't one to just come in off anything, or suddenly rush the net. She came in on a calculating approach shot.

I found it ironic how Chris would often criticize Steffi for not coming in more. Chris should have understood better than anyone about having that internal confidence and belief about coming in, and having a certain reluctance to go outside one's comfort zone.

although I was an Evert fan, I found her match commentary to be droll, and perfectly predictable. She would always so, " she's going to win because she is ranked higher." She could never think outside the box as a commentator. And while I think she was able to exploit opponents' weaknesses, which does show adaptability, the reason she was vulnerable to s & v players throughout her career like Court, Goolagong, King, and Navratilova was that she played with a certain predictability. even net rushers would know her patterns, and could force her into errors.


I agree. I hate it when people say that Chris was some sort of backboard just playing the role of retriever. She was a very forceful player that left more than one opponent gasping for air and pulling her socks up. She was always probing and exploiting with those hard, flat groundstrokes.

I didn't like her commentary either. I felt that she was just way too nice. I'm sure that comes from both being a former player and also her conservative nature. Whereas Martina or BJK would call it like it is. Plus, her memory is horrible. I don't know if it's her way of being modest, or what.

And I too thought it was funny when Chris gave others advice on coming in and so forth. I used to laugh at BJK when she would poke Chris about loosening up on court and such too. But perhaps they know it's the right thing to do, but they had to trust what came natural to them. They were both top level champions after all.

Rabbit
05-22-2009, 06:17 AM
^But, there can be no arguing that Evert's game was built on consistency. She was not like Billie Jean King or Navratilova, she wasn't going to bring the fight to her opponent. Evert's game was built on counterpunching and controlling the point through placement. While she did hit the ball as hard as anyone, she was not what I would term an offensive player in the same vein as the S/V players of her time.

I was told about just one of the drills Evert's father had her do on a routine basis. Evert was paired with a male pro on a HarTru court. He was given either the deuce or ad side of the court and Evert had to hit balls back to him. He was given the entire court to hit to. Evert had to win the point by either hitting a winner or him missing. I believe the pro told me that Evert had to win 50 points like this from each side. If she lost more than 3, then her count was reset.

He said that the single most impressive thing about the drill was when Evert lost the 4th point. She didn't show any emotion, wasn't frustrated, she just went back to the baseline and started over. Her dedication and ability to shut out failures like this was phenomenal. When something didn't go her way, she had the uncanny ability to immediately relegate it to a past event and look forward, something Navratilova struggled with.

Evert and her father also played chess to enhance her ability to concentrate. Mr. Evert really built Chris to be an immovable object. She was going to stay in a match and her opponents just plain had to beat her.

I do agree that if Evert had the upper hand, she'd dominate her opponent by controlling the center of the court and just running them to death. IMO, she and Connors had the same games. The big difference between them was the thought process that employed the game.

I can still see Evert hitting that sidespin forehand and cleanly struck backhand down the line. And yes, her forehand drop shot was a thing of beauty and was employed at just the right time(s) on clay and grass.

Great thread, BTW.

Arafel
05-22-2009, 07:34 AM
I agree with you. Hana was always even on in the lead in the 1985 U.S Open final. It makes no sense to say Martina blew it. Martina fought very hard to keep an on fire Hana from running away with it and nearly winning it in the end.

The 1981 U.S Open final Martina blew a bit in a way, but then again it was evenly played all through the last 2 sets and Tracy most all the time was even or ahead in those last 2 sets. Martina simply didnt mantain her level of play of the first set, while Tracy raised hers a great deal from the first set for the second and third sets. That isnt neccessarily choking, especialy as the conditions that day were horrible and made for some up and down play. Martina's dominant first set gave her no real advantage for the rest of the match as that is how tennis scoring is.

The 1982 U.S Open she caught a virus before the U.S Open, and the effects of that are what happened during her match with Shriver halfway through.

I wouldnt rate Martina over Chris, Monica, Steffi, King, or perhaps even the Williams and ASV in mental toughness all time but I would rate her easily atleast in the top 10. The choker label she is saddled with is a joke, another example of poor journalism and marketing cliche.

Martina double faulted a bunch in that 81 final, including on match point in the tiebreak, and blew a couple of really easy volleys. The match against Shriver, she was up a set, 5-4, and 30-15. Whatever you want to say about the toxoplasmosis, as Shriver said after that match, if she was that sick I shouldn't have lost a game.

Ted Tinling once said of Martina that she could go from "arrogance to panic." I think Martina earned the choker label earlier in her career. For instance, there was the 76 US Open first round match she lost after a dominating first set (she ended up crying on the court and had to be helped off it, remembering her defection the year prior).

There was also the match she lost to Horvath in 83 at the French, her only loss that year.

By the end of 1981, Navratilova looked be done. She had only won two Slams, was 25, and seemed to be promise unfulfilled. Even when she first got on the tour in 73, people recognized that she could be the best ever. King in fact told her that at one of her first tournaments.

To her credit, Martina shaped up, gained a new focus, and had three of the most dominating years ever. Until that point however, she had been somewhat fragile mentally.

CEvertFan
05-22-2009, 07:51 AM
^But, there can be no arguing that Evert's game was built on consistency. She was not like Billie Jean King or Navratilova, she wasn't going to bring the fight to her opponent. Evert's game was built on counterpunching and controlling the point through placement. While she did hit the ball as hard as anyone, she was not what I would term an offensive player in the same vein as the S/V players of her time.

I was told about just one of the drills Evert's father had her do on a routine basis. Evert was paired with a male pro on a HarTru court. He was given either the deuce or ad side of the court and Evert had to hit balls back to him. He was given the entire court to hit to. Evert had to win the point by either hitting a winner or him missing. I believe the pro told me that Evert had to win 50 points like this from each side. If she lost more than 3, then her count was reset.

He said that the single most impressive thing about the drill was when Evert lost the 4th point. She didn't show any emotion, wasn't frustrated, she just went back to the baseline and started over. Her dedication and ability to shut out failures like this was phenomenal. When something didn't go her way, she had the uncanny ability to immediately relegate it to a past event and look forward, something Navratilova struggled with.

Evert and her father also played chess to enhance her ability to concentrate. Mr. Evert really built Chris to be an immovable object. She was going to stay in a match and her opponents just plain had to beat her.

I do agree that if Evert had the upper hand, she'd dominate her opponent by controlling the center of the court and just running them to death. IMO, she and Connors had the same games. The big difference between them was the thought process that employed the game.

I can still see Evert hitting that sidespin forehand and cleanly struck backhand down the line. And yes, her forehand drop shot was a thing of beauty and was employed at just the right time(s) on clay and grass.

Great thread, BTW.


Good post. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs064.gif

suwanee4712
05-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Good post. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs064.gif


Wow, thanks for sharing that. I always have this "prissy Chrissy" picture in my mind at Holiday Park in her little dress and the ribbon in her hair. But having that drill described to me makes me picture something else entirely. She's an awesome tennis player and person to have that kind of drive and inner strength.

I don't know if Rabbit is named for Wendy "the Rabbit" Turnbull or not. But I know I read that when Chris and Wendy practiced together, Wendy taught her the old Aussie lob/volley drill. That one sounded like a killer too.

Arafel
05-22-2009, 03:03 PM
Wow, thanks for sharing that. I always have this "prissy Chrissy" picture in my mind at Holiday Park in her little dress and the ribbon in her hair. But having that drill described to me makes me picture something else entirely. She's an awesome tennis player and person to have that kind of drive and inner strength.

I don't know if Rabbit is named for Wendy "the Rabbit" Turnbull or not. But I know I read that when Chris and Wendy practiced together, Wendy taught her the old Aussie lob/volley drill. That one sounded like a killer too.

I have "The Rivals" and I've read it several times. BJK describes how hard it could be to practice with Chris, and how a lot of people didn't like to, because she was driven and she would get mad when they couldn't do the drill the way it was supposed to be done. BJK is quoted as saying to her, "My ground strokes aren't as good as yours! I'm trying!"

Chris was extremely focused, and while she knew she didn't have quite the same level of athleticism of Martina, she felt she was still a good athlete and people underestimated her.

CEvertFan
05-22-2009, 08:08 PM
I have "The Rivals" and I've read it several times. BJK describes how hard it could be to practice with Chris, and how a lot of people didn't like to, because she was driven and she would get mad when they couldn't do the drill the way it was supposed to be done. BJK is quoted as saying to her, "My ground strokes aren't as good as yours! I'm trying!"

Chris was extremely focused, and while she knew she didn't have quite the same level of athleticism of Martina, she felt she was still a good athlete and people underestimated her.


She was a good athlete. She made herself into one, especially in the 80s when she got more fit. She never had the natural athleticism of Navratilova or Graf but she definitely was a legitimately good athlete.

I have "The Rivals" too. It's a good read even though I already knew most everything that was in the book.

BTURNER
05-22-2009, 09:08 PM
"BJK describes how hard it could be to practice with Chris, and how a lot of people didn't like to, because she was driven and she would get mad when they couldn't do the drill the way it was supposed to be done. BJK is quoted as saying to her, "My ground strokes aren't as good as yours! I'm trying!"

Loved this quote. I sure have empathy for BJK. I can imagine the embarrassment and frustration trying to doing groundstrke rally drills with Evert for an hour. Its no wonder Evert did not find the match made in heaven with John Lloyd. He was notoriously unfocused and lazy.

grafselesfan
05-22-2009, 09:09 PM
It is interesting to read about Nancy Lieberman in the book. What an interesting individual she was. Then you think of Renee Richards being part of Team Martina for awhile, what a unique assortment of characters that was.

Rabbit
05-23-2009, 07:17 AM
Wow, thanks for sharing that. I always have this "prissy Chrissy" picture in my mind at Holiday Park in her little dress and the ribbon in her hair. But having that drill described to me makes me picture something else entirely. She's an awesome tennis player and person to have that kind of drive and inner strength.

I don't know if Rabbit is named for Wendy "the Rabbit" Turnbull or not. But I know I read that when Chris and Wendy practiced together, Wendy taught her the old Aussie lob/volley drill. That one sounded like a killer too.

Nope, not Tunbull. My dad used to slightly alter my first name to Rabbit... Later, when I began playing tennis, and even (when something isn't pulled) now, one of my better attributes on court is movement.

It is interesting to read about Nancy Lieberman in the book. What an interesting individual she was. Then you think of Renee Richards being part of Team Martina for awhile, what a unique assortment of characters that was.

Yeah, for a while, it was almost like Navratilova had the Democratic Party in tow... :)