PDA

View Full Version : Speaking of bagels...


BTURNER
05-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Hingis at her most sublime vs Seles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky2f_JU1H5Q

Granted this is the slower Seles, but she still had phenominally well disguised and powerful strokes, great anticipation and the heart of a lion. To watch 16 or 17 yr old Martina take this former champion apart is quite a reminder how gifted she was. I was impressed by the power of those strokes, considering how we remember her as the weaker champion. Not a lot of people took Seles down like this in her career no matter what stage it was. No, this is not a slam Monica thread. This has happened to all champions and She has done her share of destructions. I am an admirer of Seles. Sometimes its fun to watch a player in the zone, particularly with the imagination of Hingis.

LDVTennis
05-10-2009, 11:53 AM
Hingis at her most sublime vs Seles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky2f_JU1H5Q

Granted this is the slower Seles, but she still had phenominally well disguised and powerful strokes, great anticipation and the heart of a lion. To watch 16 or 17 yr old Martina take this former champion apart is quite a reminder how gifted she was. I was impressed by the power of those strokes, considering how we remember her as the weaker champion. Not a lot of people took Seles down like this in her career no matter what stage it was. No, this is not a slam Monica thread. This has happened to all champions and She has done her share of destructions. I am an admirer of Seles. Sometimes its fun to watch a player in the zone, particularly with the imagination of Hingis.

I've seen the clip before and though I am no fan of Hingis I can't help but being impressed.

You know I can't remember if this match happened before or after the 1996 US Open. I think before. When I first watched it, and maybe because the camera angle encourages this kind of thinking, I tried to substitute Steffi for Monica in the court nearest to the camera. Hingis and Steffi played each other either before or after this match. Through my mental experiment, I was trying to understand why the same ball movement didn't quite work against Steffi. I think Hingis actually played this well versus Graf in the first set of their 1996 US Open Semi, but despite having so many set points in that set Hingis lost the match in two.

Which begs the question, what is actually happening in the clip? Is it really power or ball movement (both back and forth and up and down)? And, if's just ball movement, why didn't more players play like this against Seles before?

BTURNER
05-10-2009, 01:05 PM
Well of course this isn't Seles at her best. Earlier she would have gotten to many of these winners and blasted them. Other payers just didn't think like Hingis and have the same court sense and talent. I love the drop shot over the highest part of the net reply off the wide ball to her backhand. No one would think to cover such an answer because it is simply isn't taught to try that kind of thing. Hinguis was an original thinker with the control gift to make stuff come off.

Lionheart392
05-10-2009, 03:30 PM
Great play by Hingis. I agree that Seles's fitness was obviously an issue here; her footwork wasn't what it was in the past and Hingis exploited it ruthlessly, taking away all of Seles's time. But putting that aside, it was a fantastic performance all-round.

Rickson
05-10-2009, 08:33 PM
Hingis bageled Seles?

BTURNER
05-10-2009, 08:47 PM
Yes 6-2,6-0 Not a double bagel.

Rickson
05-10-2009, 09:01 PM
One is bad enough.

thalivest
05-10-2009, 09:22 PM
Hingis bageled Seles quite a few times. 2nd set of the 2000 U.S Open, double bagel in Miami semis 2000, I think maybe another Miami final 1997. Against the much bigger hitters Hingis's best play was to take the ball early, use her amazing ball control and variety, and maneuver the big hitter around while robbing them of time. Seles even in her prime was not the best mover and past her prime she was even less so. Pierce was never a particularly good mover. That is why Hingis owned both Pierce and Seles. That is why she owned Davenport up until 1998 but began having much less success once Davenport got fitter and began moving alot better. That is why she really had a hard time with the Williams during their primes since she couldnt exploit their movement, they moved too well, and her options were limited.

DMan
05-10-2009, 10:52 PM
I've seen the clip before and though I am no fan of Hingis I can't help but being impressed.

You know I can't remember if this match happened before or after the 1996 US Open. I think before. When I first watched it, and maybe because the camera angle encourages this kind of thinking, I tried to substitute Steffi for Monica in the court nearest to the camera. Hingis and Steffi played each other either before or after this match. Through my mental experiment, I was trying to understand why the same ball movement didn't quite work against Steffi. I think Hingis actually played this well versus Graf in the first set of their 1996 US Open Semi, but despite having so many set points in that set Hingis lost the match in two.

Which begs the question, what is actually happening in the clip? Is it really power or ball movement (both back and forth and up and down)? And, if's just ball movement, why didn't more players play like this against Seles before?

This match took place in October 1996, indoors in Oakland.

It was the first time Seles and Hingis ever played.

Hingis was not a good match up for Seles, hence Hingis' domination of Seles. On the other hand, I think Steffi's variety and court speed helped in her match ups with Hingis.

Seles was overweight and not playing that well in Oct 1996. In fact, beginning with the US Open, Hingis really was the 2nd best player in the world, behind Graf.

One reason why Hingis was so much trouble for Seles is that Hingis loved the pace. She fed off it, and took the ball early so she could change the direction and keep Monica off balance. And largely because Hingis first played Seles at a time when Hingis was already established as a top player, Hingis had no fear of Seles, nor memory of stinging defeats as a young player. She started on top, and stayed ahead of Monica throughout their career.

The Oakland match, as one-sided as it was, wasn't even the worst beating Hingis gave Seles. In Indian Wells, I think in 2000, Hingis double bageled Seles!

Moose Malloy
05-11-2009, 09:54 AM
double bagel in Miami semis 2000,

Seles was injured in this match. I'm surprised she didn't default.

CEvertFan
05-11-2009, 02:53 PM
Hingis was a very good tactician with great hands and she could be very creative with shot selection when she was at her best. Too bad a loss of conficence and a stubborn refusal to tweak her game led to her downfall.

Someone said that she had success against the likes of Seles, Davenport and Pierce, among others, because she was able to move them around and ate up their pace. I would agree with that completely. The Williams sisters who in their primes are among the fastest players ever were able to negate that tactic from Hingis and their power allowed them to run Hingis into the ground.