When you can't beat someone, but you can beat the person that beats them!

[Radical Shot]

Help me!

I cannot beat a certain player at our club, but I can beat the person that can beat him...easily!

When I lose to the player I cannot beat, it's mostly because of unforced errors and dumb shot selection. When I beat the other player, it's because I dominate him with big shots and crushing his serve.

What's going on!

Best regards,
RS

[split-step]

Tennis isn't syllogistic.
Just because you always beat Player A, and Player A always beats Player B, does not mean you can beat Player B.

Welcome to the world of match-ups.

[Radical Shot]

Awesome!

I may not be any the wiser how to beat player B, but I've learnt a new word today....and that's just as good, perhaps better.

Thanks split-step.

[sh@de]

Could it be a matter of confidence? I mean, if you keep losing to the same guy, he can get in your head. Have you considered maybe trying alternative strats? So maybe try some unorthodox shots? Use the whole arsenal in your shot-selection, maybe that'll help? Another thing is, maybe you should approach the game with the mindset of 'i'll enjoy playing against him' instead of 'goddarn it i need to beat him!'.

[Radical Shot]

Thanks sh@de. He is in my head a bit. I have the game to outplay him, just not the mind!?! ;-(

I always play tennis to enjoy - I'm really not the competitive type, so I guess it's just a matter of focus.....and watching lots of Fabice Santoro video on youtube

Thanks,
RS

[Jimmyk459]

You have the old Nadal - Blake - Federer syndrome.

[raiden031]

You have the old Nadal - Blake - Federer syndrome.

Paper, rock, scissors much?

[larry10s]

probably its a style issue and match up. maybe the duy you dont beat is a counterpuncher /pusher type so he beats you on consistency. the other guy is an aggresive baseliner type who you can smash with and he makes the error before you.????

[larry10s]

syllogistic
logic
Main
in logic, the formal analysis of logical terms and operators and the structures that make it possible to infer true conclusions from given premises. Developed in its original form by Aristotle in his Prior Analytics (Analytica priora) about 350 bc, syllogistic represents the earliest branch of formal logic.

[larry10s]

Tennis isn't syllogistic.
Just because you always beat Player A, and Player A always beats Player B, does not mean you can beat Player B.

Welcome to the world of match-ups.
^^^^^^ very impressive vocabulary.

[raiden031]

Coincidentally I had a player like this, and he was of the Santoro type. I played this guy maybe 6 times in over 2 years and finally beat him the last time we played. The first year I was losing to both him and guys who beat him, but the second year I was capable of beating several of the guys easily who could beat him.

With this player I think the problem is that he uses my pace against me. The guys I can beat don't hit with as much pace, so he has to generate some of his own, hitting more errors in the process against these players.

[Radical Shot]

Coincidentally I had a player like this, and he was of the Santoro type. I played this guy maybe 6 times in over 2 years and finally beat him the last time we played. The first year I was losing to both him and guys who beat him, but the second year I was capable of beating several of the guys easily who could beat him.

With this player I think the problem is that he uses my pace against me. The guys I can beat don't hit with as much pace, so he has to generate some of his own, hitting more errors in the process against these players.

Exactly!

I hit big. Really big...

...and the guy just gets his K90 in the way, and it does the rest.. Actually he often comments that I have the bigger game, but it's his racquet (K90) that allows him to return the shot just by "getting his racquet to it".

I do the pace generation, and he defends - pretty much the whole match. The problem is, that I spray a lot of shots that should be cold winners. To his credit, he gets a lot of balls back, and hit some freakish shots that Federer would be proud of.

To my dismay, sometimes I feel like Roddick...:)

I need to learn to not hit everything at 110% power.....

[acehole]

i'm down to 2 guys in my area that i cant beat. used to be many more than that. at some point i started taking a notepad to the match and at the changeovers i would write down what he did to get points from me, what i did to get points from him, and what didnt work for either of us. this helped me take out alot of players. now i'm down to these two. other players i have beaten have beaten both of these guys. i have not applied the intel yet, but i did the recon. i watched one of the guys i beat, beat one of the guys that i cant. the guy that i beat, is almost unimaginably patient when he plays this guy. is there any chance you can watch the guy you beat, beat the guy you cant, and take notes?

[Radical Shot]

Hi acehole,

Firstly, what a great name... ;-)

Thanks for your input. Good ideas here. I'll definately watch the next time that I see both of these guys play together. I get the impression that the guy I can't beat doesn't really enjoy playing the guy that can beat him. ;-)

It is a lot like Fabrice Santoro beating Marat Safin, but I suppose there are lessons to be learnt.

Patience is a key part to tennis strategy. I guess I try to hit every shot for a winner. This often does not work to my advantage though...

Although I won't be taking physical notes, I will definately be taking mental notes of why I lost the game/points.

Thanks for the insight.

Best regards,
RS

[sh@de]

Radical, it sounds like you're not being patient enough. I think, if I remember correctly, that Federer used to lose to counterpunchers like Hewitt a lot before he hit his peak. And then from a certain stage onwards, he'd just beat Hewitt every single time. While I don't actually know why he used to lose to Hewitt, I remember when he started winning, he would play a patient game. Maybe that's what you're lacking. Try and set up points instead of blasting a shot as soon as you see a tiny opening. If in doubt, just pull your opponent from side to side, and perhaps just keep doing it until you force errors.

Tennis is about playing one more ball into the court than your opponent. You can do that by striking a winner, or you could wait until they fail to hit the ball back to your court. Remember you don't always have to go with the former option.

[cork_screw]

This is called a "match up." This is why James Blake has only beaten Federer once in almost 8 attempts and he's 4-5 against Nadal. This is rock paper scissors. One guy can do what another guy can't but disabilities turn into advantages and vice versa.

[RoddickAce]

From your descriptions, the guy that you can't beat must be a pusher. Your big hitting style might be effective versus the person who beat the pusher; maybe because the other guy was a net rusher(just taking a wild guess)?

When I used to play against pushers, I hit extreme slices, loopy forehands and I hit heavy kickers even as my first serves. This gives them no pace and messes up their rhythm xD. Until you can rip the ball with as much consistency as how consistent the pusher can keep the ball in play, it wouldn't be an effective strategy to try and overpower the pusher, simply because the %'s are agaisnt you.

Also, if you search "how to beat a pusher" or something like that on this forum, you'll find tons of ideas and strategies to beating pushers.

[split-step]

^^^^^^ very impressive vocabulary.

Thanks :)

10 char.

[Steady Eddy]

When I started tennis, I signed up for a novice league, and three of us had this going on. One guy hit hard, right at you, and every third shot went long. I couldn't beat him because I didn't know how to handle pace. But this old guy could beat him, he'd hang in there until a shot went out. But I could beat the old guy, he didn't hit hard and since I was younger, I could run longer. He'd tire out before me every point. The transitive property doesn't always hold in tennis.

[Julieta]

Exactly!

I hit big. Really big...

...and the guy just gets his K90 in the way, and it does the rest.. Actually he often comments that I have the bigger game, but it's his racquet (K90) that allows him to return the shot just by "getting his racquet to it".

I do the pace generation, and he defends - pretty much the whole match. The problem is, that I spray a lot of shots that should be cold winners. To his credit, he gets a lot of balls back, and hit some freakish shots that Federer would be proud of.

To my dismay, sometimes I feel like Roddick...:)

I need to learn to not hit everything at 110% power.....


It sounds like this guy's game plan is to get to every ball and try to make you uncomfortable. He wants you to try to hit him off the court. Because you like to hit with power it is easy for you to fall into this pattern. People who can take the ball out of your zones - and this might be subtle - will dupe you into hitting winners in less desirable sitautions. If I were you I would try to take time away from him the next time you play him. Just focus on hitting the ball earlier and making the shot and see what happens. Steady players can get thrown off if they have less time. You can still go for winners, but only in times of perfect set ups. Actually if I were your coach I would tell you not try to hit winners just for the next time you play this person- just focus on trying to hit every ball early and let the winners evolve naturally. Variety can work too, but that might confuse you and you are already under mental stress playing this person. This is why I think a very simple strategy would work the best for you.

[Jimmyk459]

i'm down to 2 guys in my area that i cant beat. used to be many more than that. at some point i started taking a notepad to the match and at the changeovers i would write down what he did to get points from me, what i did to get points from him, and what didnt work for either of us. this helped me take out alot of players. now i'm down to these two. other players i have beaten have beaten both of these guys. i have not applied the intel yet, but i did the recon. i watched one of the guys i beat, beat one of the guys that i cant. the guy that i beat, is almost unimaginably patient when he plays this guy. is there any chance you can watch the guy you beat, beat the guy you cant, and take notes?

wow... u are crazy

[acehole]

wow... u are crazy

you mean in a stalker sense, or in a things that arent really there kind of a way?

[Jay_The_Nomad]

You have the old Nadal - Blake - Federer syndrome.

Paper, rock, scissors much?

With the way Nadal has been playing lately, more like 'titanium anvil, small rock & smaller scissors;.