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clayrules
05-17-2009, 09:27 AM
WOW i have never seen so many service winners and aces on clay!!! not even in the US Open!!! that was fast as hell!

why did the ATP screw the clay season with this fake clay tourney?
pfff even Hamburg was better. now we have two masters on real clay before the french. clay is soo fast! they better make it on blue clay to make madrid the big joke it is! worst clay tourney!

DarthFed
05-17-2009, 09:28 AM
Only because Nadal didn't win it correct?

clayrules
05-17-2009, 09:32 AM
Only because Nadal didn't win it correct?

incorrect. when did you start watching clay tennis?

bizarre_opinion
05-17-2009, 09:34 AM
is this a joke right?

Nadalator
05-17-2009, 09:37 AM
i agree, madrid is a disgrace for clay tennis

Nadal_Monfils
05-17-2009, 09:50 AM
It's basically red grass!

Blinkism
05-17-2009, 09:51 AM
They should put Madrid after the early Hardcourt season so it's easier to adjust into the clay court season. Then put Rome next, as it's slower but still faster than RG, and then put Monte Carlo last before the French Open as it's the slowest and most similar to Roland Garros.

So it'd be
Madrid - Rome - Monte Carlo - French Open
And that'd be fastest to slowest.

Makes sense to anyone else?

Also, it's highest to lowest in altitude. And Monte Carlo is a good place to end the pre-French Open season because the tourney is basically in France so it makes sense being the last one before Paris.

Mungo73
05-17-2009, 09:51 AM
yeah good thread

where is the real clay? this is a fraud!

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 09:52 AM
I agree. The higher bounce and the high speed make it so hard to return. Not true clay court tennis by any means. Roddick getting a set on Fed and not Nadal? What a joke.

paulorenzo
05-17-2009, 09:52 AM
WOW i have never seen so many service winners and aces on clay!!! not even in the US Open!!! that was fast as hell!

why did the ATP screw the clay season with this fake clay tourney?
pfff even Hamburg was better. now we have two masters on real clay before the french. clay is soo fast! they better make it on blue clay to make madrid the big joke it is! worst clay tourney!

you say aces on any clay surface surmounts the ace-count at the USO?
WHAT? go revive your ability to recollect the past by watching any year of the USO.
it's just all about the playing the conditions man. madrid is drier and is higher up altitude-wise in comparison to the other big clay masters. balls will fly faster. but insinuating that speeds at madrid clay are similar to speeds at USO hard is a stretch.

RoddickAce
05-17-2009, 09:54 AM
Ok, so people complain about fans claiming that the grass at Wimby is slow when Fed loses. Now when Nadal loses on clay, the clay is too fast. Please people, stop blaiming external factors all the time and making excuses and just enjoy the tennis.

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm starting to agree that maybe they are trying homogenize the tournaments. Making clay faster as well now.

paulorenzo
05-17-2009, 09:55 AM
They should put Madrid after the early Hardcourt season so it's easier to adjust into the clay court season. Then put Rome next, as it's slower but still faster than RG, and then put Monte Carlo last before the French Open as it's the slowest and most similar to Roland Garros.

So it'd be
Madrid - Rome - Monte Carlo - French Open
And that'd be fastest to slowest.

Makes sense to anyone else?

this makes sense to me. the atp should have just kept madrid an indoor court in the first place. but i will say that the stadium court looks very nice, and has a color scheme that contrasts well with the natural clay color.

Dan007
05-17-2009, 09:57 AM
This is why there were so much criticism against the tournament before the tournament started talking about the altitude and controversial blue clay. This tournament should have stayed as indoor tournament.

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 10:02 AM
They could've at least used a softer clay that absorbs some of the energy that altitude adds to. The courts were very firm as well to make it play faster.

TennisandMusic
05-17-2009, 10:04 AM
It's just another tournament guys. All courts play a little different to some degree. Ok this was faster than other clay courts. Big whoop. Give it a rest.

ronalditop
05-17-2009, 10:07 AM
I guess they realized how boring it is for people to watch the extremely slow tennis clay courts offers.

IvanAndreevich
05-17-2009, 10:12 AM
I agree. The higher bounce and the high speed make it so hard to return. Not true clay court tennis by any means. Roddick getting a set on Fed and not Nadal? What a joke.

Yeah it's not true clay court tennis. If Nadal won, it would be true clay court tennis, though. Because only Nadal wins on a true clay court.

Dutch-Guy
05-17-2009, 10:23 AM
So the organizators should slow down Madrid next year?(and speed up Wimby this year:?

swedechris
05-17-2009, 10:25 AM
I Loved It!

crazylevity
05-17-2009, 10:28 AM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/e956367d6ac84b67f0f46880e8993fe78fafec50.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=4026)

crazylevity
05-17-2009, 10:29 AM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/Fail_7.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1923)

CEvertFan
05-17-2009, 10:41 AM
There is no way that any clay is as fast as the US Open courts or even the slower grass at Wimbledon. Not even the Madrid clay. The Madrid clay is faster than Roland Garros because it was hot and dry and they don't water the court as much as they could or maybe should.

NamRanger
05-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Good, since you slowed down grass you better speed up clay too.

mzzmuaa
05-17-2009, 10:52 AM
roddick vs federer was the real final

BreakPoint
05-17-2009, 10:53 AM
Are you kidding? Did you guys see the Nadal-Djokovic semi? The court was so slow which allowed both players to get to so many balls they wouldn't have gotten to on a fast court. I kept thinking, boy, the ball really sits up on this court. That's why Murray lost to Del Potro in straight sets but beat him at the US Open and other fast courts. Murray is not good on slow clay courts. Just ask Juan Monaco.

Wannabe
05-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Does anyone other than me think we've got so hung up on the slow/fast discussion that we've forgotten that courts differ in so many ways that you need more than one parameter to describe them? Let's consider the concept of "speed". What does it mean? One logical answer is the fraction of the energy returned to a bouncing ball by the court. However, I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that compressed cement returns more energy to the ball than grass. Does this make a hard court "faster" than a grass court? Ok, let's have another go. Perhaps it's how much of the horizontal component of a ball's velocity is returned to it. This is probably closer, because the ball skids through on grass whereas the bounce is more vertical on clay or hard. I still reckon we've got problems though when comparing different surfaces and conditions. For example, high altitude conditions might be "faster" because the atmospheric pressure is lower and there's less drag on the ball. However, the air pressure inside the ball will drop, so the ball will be "softer" and will, I'm guessing, lose more energy when it comes into contact with the court.

In general, I reckon we define "fast" and "slow" by the sort of play we see on them. This is reasonable as a shorthand, but we need to bear in mind that it's a bit difficult to say. This clay court is faster than this hard court, because "speed" means different things on different courts.

Gorecki
05-17-2009, 11:18 AM
they are still using Taraflex (or whatever they were using)... remember that it's madrid masters and it used to be Indoor super fast surface :twisted:

only explanation for Rafa0's loss...:twisted:

alienhamster
05-17-2009, 11:21 AM
They should put Madrid after the early Hardcourt season so it's easier to adjust into the clay court season. Then put Rome next, as it's slower but still faster than RG, and then put Monte Carlo last before the French Open as it's the slowest and most similar to Roland Garros.

So it'd be
Madrid - Rome - Monte Carlo - French Open
And that'd be fastest to slowest.

Makes sense to anyone else?

Also, it's highest to lowest in altitude. And Monte Carlo is a good place to end the pre-French Open season because the tourney is basically in France so it makes sense being the last one before Paris. Yes. Perfect scheduling, IMO. That transition would work wonderfully tourney to tourney.

Too bad they'll never go for this.

zagor
05-17-2009, 11:23 AM
It's a 90s indoor carpet painted red.The Madrid organizers wanted Fed to win.

BreakPoint
05-17-2009, 11:26 AM
So are all you guys claiming that Nadal only lost because the court was too fast in Madrid, therefore admitting that Nadal is only good on slow red clay and that his wins at Wimbledon and the Australian Open were just flukes? :oops:

Rhino
05-17-2009, 11:33 AM
Well they slowed down Wimbledon, which helped Nadal win it. It's about time there was a faster clay court tournament. Not every tournament can go Nadal's way. He's already got three Masters Series events on clay every year compared to zero grass Masters Series for Fed. I think this event makes it more interesting instead of having all those slow clay courts in a row and then a slow Wimbledon, otherwise it gets boring.

Cyan
05-17-2009, 01:39 PM
Wow............................

Cyan
05-17-2009, 01:42 PM
Roddick getting a set on Fed and not Nadal? What a joke.

Yeah, that is the true indicator....

egn
05-17-2009, 01:46 PM
There is no way that any clay is as fast as the US Open courts or even the slower grass at Wimbledon. Not even the Madrid clay. The Madrid clay is faster than Roland Garros because it was hot and dry and they don't water the court as much as they could or maybe should.

Lol seriously people are a bit extreme. Honestly it was still slow..it was about Rome speed I did not see it to be any faster. The ball definitely had the clay court bounce. It was slower than wimby and not close to the US Open.

herosol
05-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Are you kidding? Did you guys see the Nadal-Djokovic semi? The court was so slow which allowed both players to get to so many balls they wouldn't have gotten to on a fast court. I kept thinking, boy, the ball really sits up on this court. That's why Murray lost to Del Potro in straight sets but beat him at the US Open and other fast courts. Murray is not good on slow clay courts. Just ask Juan Monaco.

WIN POST!

Yes. I have never seen so many saved-winners from both djokovic and nadal.

It's still friggin clay. If it's faster so be it. Hamburg was always a faster clay anyways. Just because he lost...wow -__-

inyourface
05-17-2009, 02:17 PM
I like to Know how fast(speed) the serve of Federer was comparing to other tournaments, samebody have the stats?

kimbahpnam
05-17-2009, 02:22 PM
Fed beats Nadal on clay and now it's the clay's fault.

inyourface
05-17-2009, 02:31 PM
Fed beats Nadal on clay and now it's the clay's fault.

Im a Rafa fan and I like the clay more fast, I think the best for the tennis is the "speed unification" and I like the USO more slow.. I only want to Know how is the speed of the clay in Madrid comparing to other tournaments and the best to mesure that is comparing the speed of Federer serve in others tournaments......

T1000
05-17-2009, 02:46 PM
So are all you guys claiming that Nadal only lost because the court was too fast in Madrid admitting that Nadal is only good on slow red clay and that his wins at Wimbledon and the Australian Open were just flukes? :oops:

They're saying rafa can only win on true clay which means that the AO and Wimby are true clay! *******s are admitting it at last :shock:

_maxi
05-17-2009, 04:29 PM
They keep making all the courts slower, which gives an advantage to nadal, and now that there is one tourney that seems to be not so slow, you are complaining.. this could come only by *******s.

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 08:21 PM
Im a Rafa fan and I like the clay more fast, I think the best for the tennis is the "speed unification" and I like the USO more slow.. I only want to Know how is the speed of the clay in Madrid comparing to other tournaments and the best to mesure that is comparing the speed of Federer serve in others tournaments......
I like the courts Monte-Carlo speed. The slower the surface, the more incredible the ralleys get.

BreakPoint
05-17-2009, 08:49 PM
I like the courts Monte-Carlo speed. The slower the surface, the more incredible the ralleys get.
You mean there weren't any incredible rallies during the Nadal-Djokovic match in Madrid? :-?

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 08:54 PM
You mean there weren't any incredible rallies during the Nadal-Djokovic match in Madrid? :-?
Those 2 have in credible ralleys everywhere. They both bring out the best in each other. But Nadal couldn't play that way for his next match. He kept the points short.

BreakPoint
05-17-2009, 09:02 PM
Those 2 have in credible ralleys everywhere. They both bring out the best in each other. But Nadal couldn't play that way for his next match. He kept the points short.
So you admit it has nothing to do with the speed of the court. It has to do with the players.

And, no, Nadal did not keep the points short in the final today. Federer kept the points short. Nadal wants the points to go as long as possible because the longer the points go, the more likely he'll win it.

Nadal_Freak
05-17-2009, 09:04 PM
So you admit it has nothing to do with the speed of the court. It has to do with the players.

And, no, Nadal did not keep the points short in the final today. Federer kept the points short. Nadal wants the points to go as long as possible because the longer the points go, the more likely he'll win it.
Nadal has no problem extending ralleys with Fed when he is 100%. Even in Madrid. Fed beat Nadal at 60% today and couldn't scramble like he normally does.

Blinkism
05-17-2009, 11:04 PM
Yes. Perfect scheduling, IMO. That transition would work wonderfully tourney to tourney.

Too bad they'll never go for this.

The ATP, I just don't get who runs it sometimes. *sigh*. It's almost as if the posters here at Tennis Warehouse could run the ATP better (that is, when we finally agree on the pressing issue of whether or not Nadal is a noob or the GOAT)

kimbahpnam
05-17-2009, 11:28 PM
Nadal has no problem extending ralleys with Fed when he is 100%. Even in Madrid. Fed beat Nadal at 60% today and couldn't scramble like he normally does.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

abmk
05-17-2009, 11:53 PM
They should put Madrid after the early Hardcourt season so it's easier to adjust into the clay court season. Then put Rome next, as it's slower but still faster than RG, and then put Monte Carlo last before the French Open as it's the slowest and most similar to Roland Garros.

So it'd be
Madrid - Rome - Monte Carlo - French Open
And that'd be fastest to slowest.

Makes sense to anyone else?

Also, it's highest to lowest in altitude. And Monte Carlo is a good place to end the pre-French Open season because the tourney is basically in France so it makes sense being the last one before Paris.

I agree

10 chars

Gorecki
05-18-2009, 12:43 AM
Nadal has no problem extending ralleys with Fed when he is 100%. Even in Madrid. Fed beat Nadal at 60% today and couldn't scramble like he normally does.

love your statistical precision... second only to your physics...

Drago
05-18-2009, 04:14 AM
Can anyone find statistics about the average service speed in Monte-Carlo, Rome and Madrid for all the players - Federer, Nadal, Djokovic. I think that this will show how really the attitude impact the service speed.

NamRanger
05-18-2009, 04:17 AM
love your statistical precision... second only to your physics...


LOL I love it.



"LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY DOES NOT APPLY TO TENNIS"

NamRanger
05-18-2009, 04:17 AM
Can anyone find statistics about the average service speed in Monte-Carlo, Rome and Madrid for all the players - Federer, Nadal, Djokovic. I think that this will show how really the attitude impact the service speed.


It's impossible to find something like that.

ChanceEncounter
05-18-2009, 05:06 AM
Can anyone find statistics about the average service speed in Monte-Carlo, Rome and Madrid for all the players - Federer, Nadal, Djokovic. I think that this will show how really the attitude impact the service speed.
Service speed is measured near the point of impact with the racquet to the ball, so this number wouldn't be very telling.

Also, the service speed of the ball by the time it gets to the returner is not an officially recorded stat. It would also depend on how far back the return sits to return the ball.

Winners or Errors
05-18-2009, 05:17 AM
Ok, so people complain about fans claiming that the grass at Wimby is slow when Fed loses. Now when Nadal loses on clay, the clay is too fast. Please people, stop blaiming external factors all the time and making excuses and just enjoy the tennis.

What's really funny about Wimbledon grass is that Federer has never won on fast Wimbledon grass... making that comment even more irrelevant. :)

stormholloway
05-18-2009, 05:31 AM
I like the courts Monte-Carlo speed. The slower the surface, the more incredible the ralleys get.

I'm assuming you've played on these courts then? You're acting like it.

stormholloway
05-18-2009, 05:32 AM
What's really funny about Wimbledon grass is that Federer has never won on fast Wimbledon grass... making that comment even more irrelevant. :)

He did beat Pete Sampras on it, right?

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 05:37 AM
I'm assuming you've played on these courts then? You're acting like it.
Why do I have to play on them to enjoy them? It looks great on my tv with some remarkable ralleys.

coloskier
05-18-2009, 05:42 AM
I agree. The higher bounce and the high speed make it so hard to return. Not true clay court tennis by any means. Roddick getting a set on Fed and not Nadal? What a joke.

Doesn't a higher bounce favor Nadal??? Especially on Fed's backhand?? This is quite a reversal for you.

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 05:46 AM
Doesn't a higher bounce favor Nadal??? Especially on Fed's backhand?? This is quite a reversal for you.
True but it hurt Nadal's return more than it hurt Fed's backhand. Nadal likes to return deep behind the baseline. The kick serve was going up too high for Nadal to feel comfort returning. So Fed dominated with his serve. We know how much easier it is to return at RG. :lol:

Bud
05-18-2009, 05:47 AM
Doesn't a higher bounce favor Nadal??? Especially on Fed's backhand?? This is quite a reversal for you.

I don't think a fast court with a high bounce favors Nadal.

This was a very unusual clay court in that it was very fast and the ball bounced very high.

Gorecki
05-18-2009, 05:49 AM
True but it hurt Nadal's return more than it hurt Fed's backhand. Nadal likes to return deep behind the baseline. The kick serve was going up too high for Nadal to feel comfort returning. So Fed dominated with his serve. We know how much easier it is to return at RG. :lol:

when someone returns deep behing BL, it means it takes the ball later than earler, therefore the higher bounce makes it better for returning... if you played for one time at least... you should know this!

you contradict yourself every 3 sentences? c'mon... you can do better!

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 05:54 AM
when someone returns deep behing BL, it means it takes the ball later than earler, therefore the higher bounce makes it better for returning... if you played for one time at least... you should know this!

you contradict yourself every 3 sentences? c'mon... you can do better!
The altitude altered where Nadal should've been returning from. The altitude made it longer to drop down. Nadal was returning high speed serves from above shoulder level. Nadal should've been taking the returns early to avoid the high ball. You could clearly see Nadal was not comfortable returning.

Blade0324
05-18-2009, 06:37 AM
I don't have a big issue with the clay at Madrid other than it being a newly laid surface that didn't seem to be in very good shape. A number of the players complained about the condition of the surface during the tourney. There were far more bad bounces here than at other clay court tourneys. You have to play the conditions to be sure but when the court serface has a significant effect it is tough. I have a bigger problem with the players playing such a tournement at altitude. Being from about 5500 ft. above sea level and having played at sea level a good bit as well, I can tell you that altitude has a significant effect that is tough to get used to. At altitude balls do not really fly faster but they do fly farther. Also spin has less effect at altitude becuase the air is thinner and the ball is impacted less by the spin. This is a tough transition in any instance but the week before the FO is not the right place for this tourney IMO.

stormholloway
05-18-2009, 07:27 AM
Why do I have to play on them to enjoy them? It looks great on my tv with some remarkable ralleys.

Because you don't really know how fast they are. Was the semi at Madrid not the best match of the clay court season? If not, which match was?

True but it hurt Nadal's return more than it hurt Fed's backhand. Nadal likes to return deep behind the baseline. The kick serve was going up too high for Nadal to feel comfort returning. So Fed dominated with his serve. We know how much easier it is to return at RG. :lol:

You're really out of your mind man. You want it both ways. Suddenly a high bounce favors Federer? You've lost it.

Gorecki
05-18-2009, 07:31 AM
Because you don't really know how fast they are. Was the semi at Madrid not the best match of the clay court season? If not, which match was?



You're really out of your mind man. You want it both ways. Suddenly a high bounce favors Federer? You've lost it.

i wonder how a flatter shot maker gets favoured by a high bouncing surface too...

and when we look at what usually happens in AO we get an idea! lets take fed for an example!

Drago
05-18-2009, 07:47 AM
Service speed is measured near the point of impact with the racquet to the ball, so this number wouldn't be very telling.


That is exactly what I am looking for. The speed just after the ball impact but before the bounce. The more density air will slowdown the service speed and vice versa. I found these statistics, but they are not related specifically to the Madrid or Monte-Carlo tours.

Pro serve speed list (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=130414)

Service Game Leaders (http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/players/matchfacts/)

quest01
05-18-2009, 07:54 AM
Its faster then other clay court tournaments but nowhere near as quick as the US Open or any hardcourt. Most people are just saying this because Nadal lost in the final, if he won nobody would be asking this question. Let's face it Federer was the better player yesterday, he made it look easy. I've never seen Nadal lose so convincingly on clay but its not because he played terribly its that Federer outplayed him. Nadal played at 100% and still lost convincingly on clay, he should be worried about defending his French open title.

jackson vile
05-18-2009, 09:51 AM
It's basically red grass!

I see what you did there......................:shock:

IvanAndreevich
05-18-2009, 10:41 AM
The altitude altered where Nadal should've been returning from. The altitude made it longer to drop down. Nadal was returning high speed serves from above shoulder level. Nadal should've been taking the returns early to avoid the high ball. You could clearly see Nadal was not comfortable returning.

The altitude altered where all players should've been returning from. The altitude made it longer to drop down. All players were returning high speed serves from above shoulder level. All players should've been taking the returns early to avoid the high ball. You could clearly see all players were not comfortable returning.

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 12:03 PM
The altitude altered where all players should've been returning from. The altitude made it longer to drop down. All players were returning high speed serves from above shoulder level. All players should've been taking the returns early to avoid the high ball. You could clearly see all players were not comfortable returning.
Exactly! According to N_F, anything negative about the conditions ONLY affect Nadal.

I guess the wind at Indian Wells ONLY affected Murray and that's the only reason he lost to Nadal, right? :-?

GS
05-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Well, if the red clay in Madrid is entirely different from Roland Garros like Nadal says, then they should go ahead and make all the Madrid courts blue clay, like their one experimental practice court. Then, we can all remember that everything's different in Madrid.
Since Nadal is the king of Spain, why didn't he demand high-altitude tennis balls?
Didn't Federer have 15 aces against Roddick? On clay? Something to do with the thin air up there?

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 12:36 PM
Didn't Federer have 15 aces against Roddick? On clay? Something to do with the thin air up there?
Federer ALWAYS out-aces Roddick, on ANY surface. Roddick cannot read Federer's serve.