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View Full Version : S & V threw Nadal of his game


richied
05-18-2009, 06:17 AM
Fed doesn't have to do it all the time, just enough to keep Nadal guessing. IMO he was definitely thrown by Fed approaching the net especially off the kicker second serve...interesting to see if Fed applies similar tactics on the slower clay??? Hope so!!

ChanceEncounter
05-18-2009, 06:28 AM
Fed doesn't have to do it all the time, just enough to keep Nadal guessing. IMO he was definitely thrown by Fed approaching the net especially off the kicker second serve...interesting to see if Fed applies similar tactics on the slower clay??? Hope so!!

Use it at RG and he's probably going to get passed.

Blade0324
05-18-2009, 09:05 AM
Actually I don't think it had much effect on Nadal at all. That wasn't really the tactic that did Fed much good at all. He changed his pattern on the ground stroke rallies and that was the key at Madrid. That said unless he has some other trick in his bag he has shown his hand now and Nadal will be well prepared for it at the FO. This is assuming of course that they both make the final. If Nole is in Rogers side of the draw then I think we will see Nadal and Nole in the final.

Bhagi Katbamna
05-18-2009, 09:08 AM
It was the S&V plus he ran around some more backhands and then he hit aggressive forehands. And when they worked, he didn't stop doing it.

All-rounder
05-18-2009, 10:38 AM
It was the S&V plus he ran around some more backhands and then he hit aggressive forehands. And when they worked, he didn't stop doing it.
true just as nadal doesn't stop hitting to federer's backhand

Bhagi Katbamna
05-18-2009, 12:42 PM
true just as nadal doesn't stop hitting to federer's backhand

But for some undecipherable reason, in the Aus Open 2009 Fed stopped doing it even when it worked.

halalula1234
05-18-2009, 04:40 PM
and he was attacking nadal on the bh a lot as well

kkm
05-18-2009, 07:08 PM
Nadal had 12 winners vs 16 unforced errors, while Federer had 25 winners vs 25 unforced errors. It seems that whenever they play Federer has more winners but also a good deal more unforced errors. Nadal's first-serve percentage was typically high, 80%. Federer's was a respectable 63%, which would help him at RG.

mega
05-18-2009, 07:36 PM
Nadal returned poorly the entire tournament. I dont think that S&V really changed anything.

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 07:40 PM
Nadal returned poorly the entire tournament. I dont think that S&V really changed anything.
You noticed all the weird bounces Nadal was getting? They were extremely high as well. Nadal needed to take the ball earlier as the ball would not come down low enough for Nadal's comfort. It was also harder to hit balls out wide with the faster conditions where Nadal likes to position himself. Being far behind the baseline works much better in slower conditions.

sh@de
05-18-2009, 08:34 PM
You noticed all the weird bounces Nadal was getting? They were extremely high as well. Nadal needed to take the ball earlier as the ball would not come down low enough for Nadal's comfort. It was also harder to hit balls out wide with the faster conditions where Nadal likes to position himself. Being far behind the baseline works much better in slower conditions.

Shouldn't Fed be the one who suffers from the crazy bounce? Imagine that crazy bounce on his backhand... just as Nadal couldn't handle it, Fed shouldn't have by your logic. This argument about 'oh the bounce was too high for Nadal' is a moot point.

tlm
05-18-2009, 08:42 PM
Live a dream while you can fed lovers, because it will be all Rafa come the french.

downdaline
05-18-2009, 08:52 PM
they BOTH suffered from the crazy bounces. IMO, there was definitely a difference in Fed's strategy and it worked. Whether or not it will work at RG is another matter.

I'm a big Fed fan, but I cannot see this happening to Nadal at RG.

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 09:20 PM
You noticed all the weird bounces Nadal was getting? They were extremely high as well. Nadal needed to take the ball earlier as the ball would not come down low enough for Nadal's comfort. It was also harder to hit balls out wide with the faster conditions where Nadal likes to position himself. Being far behind the baseline works much better in slower conditions.
Being that far behind the baseline doesn't work under any conditions against a really good serve and volleyer.

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 09:42 PM
Being that far behind the baseline doesn't work under any conditions against a really good serve and volleyer.
Wrong. Nadal would have no problem with any serve and volleyer at the French Open. You underestimate how much power and work can be put on the ball with Nadal from back there. He seems to have an instinct for hitting the right parts of the courts against those type of players.

Nadal_Freak
05-18-2009, 09:45 PM
they BOTH suffered from the crazy bounces. IMO, there was definitely a difference in Fed's strategy and it worked. Whether or not it will work at RG is another matter.

I'm a big Fed fan, but I cannot see this happening to Nadal at RG.
Nadal could not control ball well enough to break down Fed's backhand. It took Nadal's rhythm out and that is hard to do. When Nadal was able to extend the point, Fed would make an error on his backhand. Just not enough points like that in faster conditions. I underestimated that part of equation and question whether Nadal would prefer a sunny and dry day. The blowout happened in cool and humid conditions.

Dilettante
05-18-2009, 09:45 PM
AHe changed his pattern on the ground stroke rallies and that was the key at Madrid.

I agree with that.

vndesu
05-18-2009, 09:51 PM
federer also had very good serves that day and he looked like he was moving better. some people will disagree with me when i say that just maybe fed could take if he keeps up this pace but then we wont know til then

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 10:19 PM
Wrong. Nadal would have no problem with any serve and volleyer at the French Open. You underestimate how much power and work can be put on the ball with Nadal from back there. He seems to have an instinct for hitting the right parts of the courts against those type of players.
You obviously have zero understanding of serve and volley tennis. It has nothing to do with power. I don't care if he can hit the ball harder than Gonzo because he can't hit the ball until it actually reaches him, can he? The further he stands back, the longer he has to wait before the serve reaches him so he can actually hit it. So guess what the server is doing with all this time? That's right, he's closing in on top of the net. You hit a slow kick serve to Nadal and hopscotch your way to the net because you have all kinds of time to get there. The closer you get to the net, the more angles you cut off and the easier your volleys are. Also, by standing so far back, Nadal has left open all the angles for the server to hit that first volley into. It also allows the server to hit a drop volley for a winner because Nadal is so far back there's no way he's going to get to drop volleys on clay. All that distance also allows the server to track down the trajectory of Nadal's passing shots so much sooner before the ball reaches back across the net and put himself in position to intercept the pass with a volley winner. And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)

Why do you think Sampras says he licks his chops every time he sees Nadal play? Because he knows he would make mince meat out of Nadal. :)

Sentinel
05-18-2009, 10:45 PM
And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)


Maybe *that* should be Federer's secret tactic for winning the FO this year. Underhand serves!

^^ btw, n_f should be paying you for these tennis appreciation lessons!

richied
05-18-2009, 11:13 PM
You obviously have zero understanding of serve and volley tennis. It has nothing to do with power. I don't care if he can hit the ball harder than Gonzo because he can't hit the ball until it actually reaches him, can he? The further he stands back, the longer he has to wait before the serve reaches him so he can actually hit it. So guess what the server is doing with all this time? That's right, he's closing in on top of the net. You hit a slow kick serve to Nadal and hopscotch your way to the net because you have all kinds of time to get there. The closer you get to the net, the more angles you cut off and the easier your volleys are. Also, by standing so far back, Nadal has left open all the angles for the server to hit that first volley into. It also allows the server to hit a drop volley for a winner because Nadal is so far back there's no way he's going to get to drop volleys on clay. All that distance also allows the server to track down the trajectory of Nadal's passing shots so much sooner before the ball reaches back across the net and put himself in position to intercept the pass with a volley winner. And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)

Why do you think Sampras says he licks his chops every time he sees Nadal play? Because he knows he would make mince meat out of Nadal. :)


Love ya work!! So true...I have to play tennis on the clay in Korea and my opponents stand miles back, thinking I'm going to serve bombs. I can stroll to net and basically dominate!

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 11:32 PM
Maybe *that* should be Federer's secret tactic for winning the FO this year. Underhand serves!

^^ btw, n_f should be paying you for these tennis appreciation lessons!

Love ya work!! So true...I have to play tennis on the clay in Korea and my opponents stand miles back, thinking I'm going to serve bombs. I can stroll to net and basically dominate!
Thanks, guys! :)

Yes, I should be charging Nadal_Freak for these free tennis lessons. :)

Bud
05-18-2009, 11:36 PM
Fed doesn't have to do it all the time, just enough to keep Nadal guessing. IMO he was definitely thrown by Fed approaching the net especially off the kicker second serve...interesting to see if Fed applies similar tactics on the slower clay??? Hope so!!

The tactic won't work nearly as well on normal clay (at sea level) because the ball bounces a bit lower and moves slower.

Fed recognized the unusual conditions in Madrid and capitalized on the situation. His adjustment is what won him the match. If he'd have stuck with his normal tactics, even a flat Nadal would have squeaked out a win.

Bud
05-18-2009, 11:40 PM
You obviously have zero understanding of serve and volley tennis. It has nothing to do with power. I don't care if he can hit the ball harder than Gonzo because he can't hit the ball until it actually reaches him, can he? The further he stands back, the longer he has to wait before the serve reaches him so he can actually hit it. So guess what the server is doing with all this time? That's right, he's closing in on top of the net. You hit a slow kick serve to Nadal and hopscotch your way to the net because you have all kinds of time to get there. The closer you get to the net, the more angles you cut off and the easier your volleys are. Also, by standing so far back, Nadal has left open all the angles for the server to hit that first volley into. It also allows the server to hit a drop volley for a winner because Nadal is so far back there's no way he's going to get to drop volleys on clay. All that distance also allows the server to track down the trajectory of Nadal's passing shots so much sooner before the ball reaches back across the net and put himself in position to intercept the pass with a volley winner. And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)

Why do you think Sampras says he licks his chops every time he sees Nadal play? Because he knows he would make mince meat out of Nadal. :)

Great analysis, BP :)

BreakPoint
05-18-2009, 11:44 PM
Great analysis, BP :)
Thanks, Bud! :)

Bud
05-18-2009, 11:54 PM
Actually I don't think it had much effect on Nadal at all. That wasn't really the tactic that did Fed much good at all. He changed his pattern on the ground stroke rallies and that was the key at Madrid. That said unless he has some other trick in his bag he has shown his hand now and Nadal will be well prepared for it at the FO. This is assuming of course that they both make the final. If Nole is in Rogers side of the draw then I think we will see Nadal and Nole in the final.

It was the S&V plus he ran around some more backhands and then he hit aggressive forehands. And when they worked, he didn't stop doing it.

Nadal returned poorly the entire tournament. I dont think that S&V really changed anything.

You noticed all the weird bounces Nadal was getting? They were extremely high as well. Nadal needed to take the ball earlier as the ball would not come down low enough for Nadal's comfort. It was also harder to hit balls out wide with the faster conditions where Nadal likes to position himself. Being far behind the baseline works much better in slower conditions.

Nadal could not control ball well enough to break down Fed's backhand. It took Nadal's rhythm out and that is hard to do. When Nadal was able to extend the point, Fed would make an error on his backhand. Just not enough points like that in faster conditions. I underestimated that part of equation and question whether Nadal would prefer a sunny and dry day. The blowout happened in cool and humid conditions.

federer also had very good serves that day and he looked like he was moving better. some people will disagree with me when i say that just maybe fed could take if he keeps up this pace but then we wont know til then

Great analysis by many posters!

IMO, all points in bold were key elements to Federer's victory... which he only barely squeaked out with a break of serve in each set.


To summarize, here were the keys to Fed's victory, IMO:

1. Unusual Madrid conditions which Federer adjusted to and utilized better than Nadal.

2. Federer changing the pattern of his groundstrokes.

3. Federer running around more BH's and hitting the forehands more aggressively.

4. Nadal failing to adjust to the high kick serve by taking the ball earlier... especially in light of a S&V Federer.

5. Federer never allowed Nadal to get into a groove. I think everyone could see he was in trouble in set 1. I knew Fed would win if he could hold it together in set 2 and not capitulate like he's been doing in many of his matches, lately. If it would have gone 3, Nadal would have won.

6. Federer looked fresh, was moving well and was serving pretty well. The fast, high bouncing clay gave him a distinct advantage with his superior serve.

Nadal should have recognized after set 1 the adjustments he needed to make to win set 2 and then the match. The bottom line is he (uncharacteristically) did not make the adjustments necessary to win set 2. I saw very little difference in Nadal's game between the two sets. I think he was (at some level) expecting Federer to melt down, which didn't happen.

<3tennis!!!
05-19-2009, 12:10 AM
You obviously have zero understanding of serve and volley tennis. It has nothing to do with power. I don't care if he can hit the ball harder than Gonzo because he can't hit the ball until it actually reaches him, can he? The further he stands back, the longer he has to wait before the serve reaches him so he can actually hit it. So guess what the server is doing with all this time? That's right, he's closing in on top of the net. You hit a slow kick serve to Nadal and hopscotch your way to the net because you have all kinds of time to get there. The closer you get to the net, the more angles you cut off and the easier your volleys are. Also, by standing so far back, Nadal has left open all the angles for the server to hit that first volley into. It also allows the server to hit a drop volley for a winner because Nadal is so far back there's no way he's going to get to drop volleys on clay. All that distance also allows the server to track down the trajectory of Nadal's passing shots so much sooner before the ball reaches back across the net and put himself in position to intercept the pass with a volley winner. And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)

Why do you think Sampras says he licks his chops every time he sees Nadal play? Because he knows he would make mince meat out of Nadal. :)mmm will be intersting what tactics fed employs in the final of RG

vndesu
05-19-2009, 12:29 AM
Great analysis by many posters!

IMO, all points in bold were key elements to Federer's victory... which he only barely squeaked out with a break of serve in each set.


To summarize, here were the keys to Fed's victory, IMO:

1. Unusual Madrid conditions which Federer adjusted to and utilized better than Nadal.

2. Federer changing the pattern of his groundstrokes.

3. Federer running around more BH's and hitting the forehands more aggressively.

4. Nadal failing to adjust to the high kick serve by taking the ball earlier... especially in light of a S&V Federer.

5. Federer never allowed Nadal to get into a groove. I think everyone could see he was in trouble in set 1. I knew Fed would win if he could hold it together in set 2 and not capitulate like he's been doing in many of his matches, lately. If it would have gone 3, Nadal would have won.

6. Federer looked fresh, was moving well and was serving pretty well. The fast, high bouncing clay gave him a distinct advantage with his superior serve.

Nadal should have recognized after set 1 the adjustments he needed to make to win set 2 and then the match. The bottom line is he (uncharacteristically) did not make the adjustments necessary to win set 2. I saw very little difference in Nadal's game between the two sets. I think he was (at some level) expecting Federer to melt down, which didn't happen.

that sums it up nicely. i wouldve done it but i figured it was gonna take up alot of time x.x

theagassiman
05-19-2009, 03:07 AM
Live a dream while you can fed lovers, because it will be all Rafa come the french.

We'll see.

But I agree.
For now.

coloskier
05-19-2009, 09:27 AM
You noticed all the weird bounces Nadal was getting? They were extremely high as well. Nadal needed to take the ball earlier as the ball would not come down low enough for Nadal's comfort. It was also harder to hit balls out wide with the faster conditions where Nadal likes to position himself. Being far behind the baseline works much better in slower conditions.

EVERYONE was getting weird bounces, but I do agree that the courts were not in top shape.

TheNatural
05-19-2009, 09:53 AM
Fed doesn't have to do it all the time, just enough to keep Nadal guessing. IMO he was definitely thrown by Fed approaching the net especially off the kicker second serve...interesting to see if Fed applies similar tactics on the slower clay??? Hope so!!

He actually tried a lot of exactly the same tactics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjQ2OBHhH0) at Roland Garros 08, but Nadal was fresh and right on top of his game.

Look here, how aggressive Fed was trying to be on some of the points he won and lost in the RG08 final (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjQ2OBHhH0)

NamRanger
05-19-2009, 09:56 AM
He actually tried a lot of exactly the same tactics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjQ2OBHhH0) at Roland Garros 08, but Nadal was fresh and right on top of his game.

Look here, how aggressive Fed was trying to be on some of the points he won and lost in the RG08 final (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjQ2OBHhH0)



The way Nadal was playing that year, no one was going to beat him. However, this year is different, as he is showing that he is vulnerable at times on clay.


Also, Federer was playing too flat that entire match; this match at Madrid, Federer played with alot more topspin and was pinning Nadal into the backhand corner. He was basically doing what Nadal does to him all the time, which is abuse the BH wing relentlessly. Since Nadal could not deal with the topspin well off his BH side, all he could do was try and roll the ball back deep. Federer in turn, took advantage and continued to pin Nadal into this corner until he could open up the forehand side.

TheNatural
05-19-2009, 10:12 AM
You obviously have zero understanding of serve and volley tennis. It has nothing to do with power. I don't care if he can hit the ball harder than Gonzo because he can't hit the ball until it actually reaches him, can he? The further he stands back, the longer he has to wait before the serve reaches him so he can actually hit it. So guess what the server is doing with all this time? That's right, he's closing in on top of the net. You hit a slow kick serve to Nadal and hopscotch your way to the net because you have all kinds of time to get there. The closer you get to the net, the more angles you cut off and the easier your volleys are. Also, by standing so far back, Nadal has left open all the angles for the server to hit that first volley into. It also allows the server to hit a drop volley for a winner because Nadal is so far back there's no way he's going to get to drop volleys on clay. All that distance also allows the server to track down the trajectory of Nadal's passing shots so much sooner before the ball reaches back across the net and put himself in position to intercept the pass with a volley winner. And how about hitting an underhand drop serve for an ace? Even if Nadal gets to it by scrambling forward into the net, you've got an easy pass or lob on the next shot. :)

Why do you think Sampras says he licks his chops every time he sees Nadal play? Because he knows he would make mince meat out of Nadal. :)

Fed better read your post and do something new because look what happens when Federer tried to come to the net against Nadal at Roland Garros (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjQ2OBHhH0):

see:
50
145
155
205
211
223 (it worked!)
420
436
442
456
635
653
741(he was even trying it until the last point)

TheNatural
05-19-2009, 10:26 AM
The way Nadal was playing that year, no one was going to beat him. However, this year is different, as he is showing that he is vulnerable at times on clay.


Also, Federer was playing too flat that entire match; this match at Madrid, Federer played with alot more topspin and was pinning Nadal into the backhand corner. He was basically doing what Nadal does to him all the time, which is abuse the BH wing relentlessly. Since Nadal could not deal with the topspin well off his BH side, all he could do was try and roll the ball back deep. Federer in turn, took advantage and continued to pin Nadal into this corner until he could open up the forehand side.

Anyways lets just see how it unfolds and if Fed even makes the final. If they both make the final the match will be NOTHING like Madrid. Nadal wont be tired due to the extra day between matches and Fed's serve won't be as potent due to the conditions so those things will change everything.

thejoe
05-19-2009, 10:29 AM
Anyways lets just see how it unfolds and if Fed even makes the final. If they both make the final the match will be NOTHING like Madrid. Nadal wont be tired due to the extra day between matches and Fed's serve won't be as potent due to the conditions so those things will change everything.

I don't believe the tiredness was the cause of the loss in Madrid, but I also think that the result in Madrid won't affect the outcome of RG.

Sentinel
05-19-2009, 09:19 PM
Live a dream while you can fed lovers, because it will be all Rafa come the french.

Take a break, Mr TLM, i don't think any of us Fed lovers have been announcing that Federer will take out Nadal in the FO. We know Madrid is not RG.

Yeah, we are happy that Fed has finally won a Masters. And at this point, a win against Nadal under *any* circumstances, must feel good for Fed and we will enjoy it.

But the whole "fed fans think Fed has Rafa's number" crap can be avoided. We dont think so :-(