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View Full Version : Challenge to tennis fans on this site:*spoiler* and about the Fed Nadal match


Roland
05-19-2009, 06:48 AM
Stop acting like children when either Nadal or Federer lose. Loosen up to the fact that neither is a infallible god in any way and that they make mistakes and have character flaws just like the rest of us.
Learn that the GOAT in any debate on any subject is subjective and will never, ever be answered (not in the least because we haven't seen all time.) So don't get started in petty arguments like jealous schoolgirls(or politicians) when one does better than the other. Enjoy the players for what do:play a game to entertain us with their rare abilities.
Both Federer and Nadal have enshrined themselves in the tennis lore and won't always be around, so appreciate their ability while they are still here. I'm not saying you have to always be impartial, after all, you are fans.
But name-calling(nadal-*****, etc.) and team mentality(love the player, not the game, and certainly hate the other "team") toss out anyone's credibility when it comes to actually giving an opinion on the game, or the players.
This is not meant to insult anyone, it's just that everytime I've visited this site, there seems to be a lack of real thoughtful, logical threads(most seem to be some variation of Propping up one player's achievments or, more often, degrading other player's achievements) though there are some good threads,just lost in a sea of generally the same topic in different words.
I forgot where I was going, but you get the general idea, try to be more mature and impartial, and I guarantee you will enjoy tennis tournaments in more fulfilling way.
I'm not talking about everyone here either. I think the people who I'm talking about know who they are and the people this doesn't preclude to know who they are.
Sorry for the rant, but I doubt it would be seen at the rants and raves section.
*spoiler*
Back to tennis. I thought Federer won the other day through playing with great aggression (esp. on the forehand)and good serving combined with variety on his shot selection (looked like he tried extremely hard to not hit a cross court backhand and when he hit his DTL backhand, it appeared that he looped it more than usual. He tried not to allow Nadal the luxury of playing as far back as he wants to by employing many dropshots. He mixed in just the right amount of SV and CC. mostly to losing effort, but enough to factor into some of Nadal's shot selection on returns and serves.), which seemed to keep Nadal guessing and unable to position himself correctly in enough rallies to be able to impose the usual winning forehand to backhand tactic. Federer also executed his plan very well, not making many errors and when he did make them they were aggressive, not forced errors.He also did not have the bad patches which seemed to have plagued him the last year or so(they've always seemed to have popped up during his service games).
OTOH, Nadal seemed fine in the early games (He CRUSHED a cross court backhand for a winner, so I thought that the load-bearing ability of the leg was fine, his leg seemed worse in the Djokovic match), but later in the match it looked like he was having trouble with his movement. I wonder if this was due to Federer's Game plan breaking down one of Nadal's greatest strengths: his anticipation; or if Nadal's legs were simply weary from the season or previous match. That, I think is the biggest question: Was Nadal tired or did Federer's variety and tactics mess with Nadal anticipation (more important than speed, imo)? If it's the former than this win will probably not help Fed much during the French, if the latter then Fed might have a slight edge, but It will be tougher because of 5-set format and Rafa's level at the French. If it's a combination of the two then hopefully we (the fans) will be treated to a Wimbledon finals 08' type of match, but I would still give the edge to Rafa.
Otherwise, I thought Nadal's shot-making was a little less than 100%, but still top class, so the movement/anticipation aspect seemed to be the turning point. But even with all this, my lasting impression of the match was how calm Federer was(more so than usual) and Nadal's usual scowl during service bounce looked to me more like befuddlement than simple intensity.
Sorry for the long post.
What are your thoughts on the match or my post (any aspect of it, but preferably the match.)?

drakulie
05-19-2009, 06:51 AM
Otherwise, I thought Nadal's shot-making was a little less than 100%,

What are your thoughts on the match or my post (any aspect of it, but preferably the match.)?

Fed's shot-making was also less than 100%.

Roland
05-19-2009, 07:17 AM
Fed's shot-making was also less than 100%.

I don't know. I think Federer was more aggressive than he usually is and so even though his level was high, pushing for the lines, he was going to make more errors. He wasn't in the zone, if that's what you meant, but I thought his shot-making overall was fine. (Federer, even when playing his absolute limit, can't blow Rafa off the court on Clay, IMO. It's just that Rafa on clay is the absolute worst possible match-up with any player Federer can face. The way in which he destroys certain opponents, he simply can not employ against Rafa. Federer has to out-play and out-think Nadal through superior tactics to win against him on Clay.)
Also, I haven't seen Federer play a better match on clay this season, and against Nadal of all opponents. Would you mind pointing out examples of what you did or didn't see that made you think Federer was less than 100% shot-making wise? I got the match Tivo'd, if you want to point out specific points or games.

mikeler
05-19-2009, 07:28 AM
Federer played Nadal exactly like everyone here was saying he should play. He ran around his backhand quite a bit and pinned Nadal to his backhand more than usual with the inside in forehand. He also played quite a few drop shots and did some serve and volleying even on 2nd serves. Fed also was attacking Nadal's second serve by running around his backhand. He tried one chip and charge, but after hitting a great approach and getting passed I don't remember him doing it again. Basically, he shortened the points. The court was extremely fast, so I don't know how well that will work in Paris. Oh yeah, he also served great.

On the flip side, Nadal did not seem to want to run around his backhand which was surprising because he was making a couple more shank errors off of it. I think he was a little tired but probably more mentally. He has played a lot of tennis the last month. I think he had only 12 winners with 18 unforced errors. Federer was like 25 and 25. Nadal won less than 50% of points on his 2nd serve. Federer is listening to somebody who knows what they are doing because his tactics were spot on. Nadal did not play as well as usual but Federer was painting the lines and moving him all over the court so that may have had something to do with it too.

I'm a Fed fan but keep in mind Fed beat Nadal in Hamburg pretty convincingly the last 2 sets in 2007 but still lost to Nadal in Paris. Is this his year for the career grand slam? It certainly is possible if he follows the same game plan. Still, I think we'll see Nadal holding up the trophy in 3 weeks.

aphex
05-19-2009, 07:29 AM
Stop acting like children when either Nadal or Federer lose. Loosen up to the fact that neither is a infallible god in any way and that they make mistakes and have character flaws just like the rest of us.
Learn that the GOAT in any debate on any subject is subjective and will never, ever be answered (not in the least because we haven't seen all time.) So don't get started in petty arguments like jealous schoolgirls(or politicians) when one does better than the other. Enjoy the players for what do:play a game to entertain us with their rare abilities.
Both Federer and Nadal have enshrined themselves in the tennis lore and won't always be around, so appreciate their ability while they are still here. I'm not saying you have to always be impartial, after all, you are fans.
But name-calling(nadal-*****, etc.) and team mentality(love the player, not the game, and certainly hate the other "team") toss out anyone's credibility when it comes to actually giving an opinion on the game, or the players.
This is not meant to insult anyone, it's just that everytime I've visited this site, there seems to be a lack of real thoughtful, logical threads(most seem to be some variation of Propping up one player's achievments or, more often, degrading other player's achievements) though there are some good threads,just lost in a sea of generally the same topic in different words.
I forgot where I was going, but you get the general idea, try to be more mature and impartial, and I guarantee you will enjoy tennis tournaments in more fulfilling way.
I'm not talking about everyone here either. I think the people who I'm talking about know who they are and the people this doesn't preclude to know who they are.
Sorry for the rant, but I doubt it would be seen at the rants and raves section.
*spoiler*
Back to tennis. I thought Federer won the other day through playing with great aggression (esp. on the forehand)and good serving combined with variety on his shot selection (looked like he tried extremely hard to not hit a cross court backhand and when he hit his DTL backhand, it appeared that he looped it more than usual. He tried not to allow Nadal the luxury of playing as far back as he wants to by employing many dropshots. He mixed in just the right amount of SV and CC. mostly to losing effort, but enough to factor into some of Nadal's shot selection on returns and serves.), which seemed to keep Nadal guessing and unable to position himself correctly in enough rallies to be able to impose the usual winning forehand to backhand tactic. Federer also executed his plan very well, not making many errors and when he did make them they were aggressive, not forced errors.He also did not have the bad patches which seemed to have plagued him the last year or so(they've always seemed to have popped up during his service games).
OTOH, Nadal seemed fine in the early games (He CRUSHED a cross court backhand for a winner, so I thought that the load-bearing ability of the leg was fine, his leg seemed worse in the Djokovic match), but later in the match it looked like he was having trouble with his movement. I wonder if this was due to Federer's Game plan breaking down one of Nadal's greatest strengths: his anticipation; or if Nadal's legs were simply weary from the season or previous match. That, I think is the biggest question: Was Nadal tired or did Federer's variety and tactics mess with Nadal anticipation (more important than speed, imo)? If it's the former than this win will probably not help Fed much during the French, if the latter then Fed might have a slight edge, but It will be tougher because of 5-set format and Rafa's level at the French. If it's a combination of the two then hopefully we (the fans) will be treated to a Wimbledon finals 08' type of match, but I would still give the edge to Rafa.
Otherwise, I thought Nadal's shot-making was a little less than 100%, but still top class, so the movement/anticipation aspect seemed to be the turning point. But even with all this, my lasting impression of the match was how calm Federer was(more so than usual) and Nadal's usual scowl during service bounce looked to me more like befuddlement than simple intensity.
Sorry for the long post.
What are your thoughts on the match or my post (any aspect of it, but preferably the match.)?

tl;dr



...........

Roland
05-19-2009, 07:31 AM
Fed's shot-making was also less than 100%.

I forgot to add that by "a little less", I mean 90-95% of his average match level. He missed a few simple shots and made a few errors that I didn't think fed forced directly (though maybe the variety of shot he saw knocked him out of his usual rhythm and indirectly caused a few of the errors), He was still striking the ball good enough to win.
Also, I guess Federer wasn't at 100% of his absolute best, but out of his average matches this year, I think he played a little above usual.
Btw, Nadal looked peeved about the bad bounces more than once during the match. That could have been part of it.

Roland
05-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Federer played Nadal exactly like everyone here was saying he should play. He ran around his backhand quite a bit and pinned Nadal to his backhand more than usual with the inside in forehand. He also played quite a few drop shots and did some serve and volleying even on 2nd serves. Fed also was attacking Nadal's second serve by running around his backhand. He tried one chip and charge, but after hitting a great approach and getting passed I don't remember him doing it again. Basically, he shortened the points. The court was extremely fast, so I don't know how well that will work in Paris. Oh yeah, he also served great.

On the flip side, Nadal did not seem to want to run around his backhand which was surprising because he was making a couple more shank errors off of it. I think he was a little tired but probably more mentally. He has played a lot of tennis the last month. I think he had only 12 winners with 18 unforced errors. Federer was like 25 and 25. Nadal won less than 50% of points on his 2nd serve. Federer is listening to somebody who knows what they are doing because his tactics were spot on. Nadal did not play as well as usual but Federer was painting the lines and moving him all over the court so that may have had something to do with it too.

I'm a Fed fan but keep in mind Fed beat Nadal in Hamburg pretty convincingly the last 2 sets in 2007 but still lost to Nadal in Paris. Is this his year for the career grand slam? It certainly is possible if he follows the same game plan. Still, I think we'll see Nadal holding up the trophy in 3 weeks.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. To many times in the past Federer has tired to go toe-to-toe with Nadal from the backcourt, I think the recent string of losses to the younger players, Murray and Nadal in particular have shown him he can't just coast from the baseline and has to use his all-round game to win.
I think the difference from this match and the other matches, even some that he has won, is Federer was the one controlling play, even if he missed, it wasn't from being bullied around the court til' he had to go for something. He was generally starting the point on his terms.
This win just feels different than the Hamburg one, in which it was clear Nadal was gassed (and he still won a set). Federer played different in that match.
I know that RG is more of Monte-Carlo type speed, but with some dry weather it might not be that much slower (though There is no chance the court going to be as fast as Madrid)
I hope that Nadal not running around his backhand had less to do with fatigue and more to do with Federer's play. It may have had something to do with Federer hitting DTL so close to the line many times.
Also, yes, I think Nadal is still the probable winner, but this is Federer's best gameplan I've ever seen him play against Nadal. It gives me hope that federer (if he makes the final) has a shot. I Knew he had no shot in the last two FOs.

mikeler
05-19-2009, 09:33 AM
I agree with pretty much everything you said. To many times in the past Federer has tired to go toe-to-toe with Nadal from the backcourt, I think the recent string of losses to the younger players, Murray and Nadal in particular have shown him he can't just coast from the baseline and has to use his all-round game to win.
I think the difference from this match and the other matches, even some that he has won, is Federer was the one controlling play, even if he missed, it wasn't from being bullied around the court til' he had to go for something. He was generally starting the point on his terms.
This win just feels different than the Hamburg one, in which it was clear Nadal was gassed (and he still won a set). Federer played different in that match.
I know that RG is more of Monte-Carlo type speed, but with some dry weather it might not be that much slower (though There is no chance the court going to be as fast as Madrid)
I hope that Nadal not running around his backhand had less to do with fatigue and more to do with Federer's play. It may have had something to do with Federer hitting DTL so close to the line many times.
Also, yes, I think Nadal is still the probable winner, but this is Federer's best gameplan I've ever seen him play against Nadal. It gives me hope that federer (if he makes the final) has a shot. I Knew he had no shot in the last two FOs.


When Fed beat Murray in the US Open, he was attacking much more than the last few matches I've seen against Murray. Hopefully he has finally realized that he is not more consistent than Nadal or Murray. Getting into long points against those two guys is a recipe for a loss.