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View Full Version : Was I really out of line here?


seleswannabe
05-19-2009, 09:03 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

canadave
05-19-2009, 09:08 AM
Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."

woodrow1029
05-19-2009, 09:15 AM
Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."
They had already had their drills/practice, unless I am missing something. This was a set they were playing. That is when you step it up and play "your game." Totally not out of line IMO.

Topaz
05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
Wow, Canadave, I'm going to really have to disagree with you here.

What is the point of practicing? To me, it is to get better and to win in your matches. That is why they say...play like you practice.

It seems to me that is was the *other* gal who got upset because she couldn't win. I bet her lobbing strategy (like the OP says) wins her a lot of matches, and she has never been forced to change her strategy against her opponents and come up with a plan 'B'. The OP changed what was a losing strategy for her, and ended up winning. Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you are losing a match? And now, when the OP comes up against a 'lobber' in a singles match, she will know what game plan she needs to implement to win.

The other woman is going to have to deal with the fact that she got beat, fair and square, and she may have to go back to the drawing board to learn some other types of shots. I bet she wasn't complaining to the OP after she won the first set!

raiden031
05-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Well, maybe others will feel differently, but if it's practice? drill? you shouldn't be trying to win, and you were way out of line. Sounds to me like you changed the nature of the game simply because you get "bored and annoyed" with lobs, maybe didn't like the idea of losing to anyone, even in practice, and decided to win out of spite, because you could. Doesn't sound to me like a very captainly thing to do. Were you *trying* to show your players up?

A better way to handle it would've been to ask her to give you a bit more practice with other types of shots, and not lob the ball constantly, since you feel you weren't getting enough practice that way. Assuming that was indeed the problem you were having.

She was wrong on one thing--practice isn't about "fun." It should BE fun--not saying everyone should go around with a set serious expression on their face, "check your fun at the door", that kind of thing...you're allowed to laugh and have a good time--but practice should primarily be about practicing. That means if people are hitting together, they should be hitting to each other, asking each other what kind of stuff they need to work on, working together to improve each other...not selfishly trying to win a "match" or playing "the way I want to."

The only way--the ONLY way--that what you did would be remotely okay, is if beforehand you both agreed "let's practice by playing full-out, as best we can, pretend it's a real match, and whoever wins--by whatever score--is fine. Because we want to pretend it's just like a real match, real conditions."

I don't agree with this at all. If they are playing sets, then the objective is not to hit cooperatively...the objective is to win points. That is why they have cooperative drills. There is no purpose to play sets if you are not trying to win points.

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 09:20 AM
:: blinks::

Were you out of line? Absolutely not.

Was she out of line? Yes. *Way* out of line.

I mean . . . come *on.* You played your style of tennis, she played hers. Yours is better. Why is this a problem?

I have had that problem in social tennis. Some people think social tennis means you should never do anything aggressive. You shouldn't pressure them, hit hard, come to net, volley at them.

Honestly, I think the default setting is you always play full out unless there is some obvious reason not to. That would be when you are playing an octogenarian, a small child, someone far below your level. Let's not get us all into a situation where we have to go up to our opponents and make an agreement that today we will play tennis the best we can and go all out.

Now, if this were a drill and you were blasting for winners when you were supposed to be playing cooperative drills, that would be something else.

canadave
05-19-2009, 09:20 AM
They had already had their drills/practice, unless I am missing something. This was a set they were playing. That is when you step it up and play "your game." Totally not out of line IMO.

Hmmm. I just re-read it. Maybe you're right--if this was indeed a "match" at the end of practice, with everyone knowing "hey, at the end of practice, we're going to play a real match, so be ready", then I guess the OP wasn't out of line at all--my apologies.

However, I still think that as captain, you need to not just destroy someone 6-1 in a practice match against one of your players and walk away. First off, if the other player wasn't aware that this was what was going to be happening, there needed to be better communication. Secondly, if the score is 6-1 and the lobber lost badly, there should be some attempt to touch base (preferably during the set) and figure out what's going on and try to improve. At 4-1, if I'm captain, and winning easily, I'd stop things, talk to the player, try to debrief what's going on. It's still practice.

I'd also suggest that if the losing player is a doubles specialist and obviously can't play singles very well (if she's just lobbing all the time), then she probably needs help with her singles--and destroying her 6-1 in practice probably isn't the best way to help her state of mind, which is obviously fragile to begin with (hence the meltdown afterward).

That being said--yeah, I agree with you and Cindy, if the losing player is just stamping her feet because she's upset she lost, then that's not cool.

drakulie
05-19-2009, 09:23 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.


Kick her off the team.

Good luck.

Topaz
05-19-2009, 09:24 AM
Canadave, what do you mean by saying the other player isn't aware of what is happening?!? She is on a tennis court, playing a match with people keeping score!

BTW, being captain doesn't mean you are the best player...just means you handle the paperwork. The OP is not a 'pro', just another player on the team.

What is this other player going to do in a real match situation if she runs into someone who played like the OP did? Cry and complain??? Lol, I mean...'cmon!!!

Cindy is right...it is the *other* woman who is way, WAY out of line. If she can't take the heat, she needs to get off of the court.

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 09:26 AM
I don't think it is up to the winning player to stop the set and tell the losing player what she should do differently, even in a team practice. It is up to the losing player to do that if she thinks it would be helpful.

I play a woman in practice doubles who does what you suggest. She starts winning, and then she starts saying things to her losing opponents like, "We're up two breaks. What are you guys going to start doing differently to turn it around?"

I find this *highly* obnoxious. We are grown women and experienced players. We will decide what adjustments to make, and when.

Hey, I captain teams. If I am having a practice match with teammates, I go all out (unless I'm trying to implement some new skill) and I try to win every set 6-0. And I don't coach unless I am asked *and* have a very clear idea what the others are doing wrong and some tactical suggestion.

JavierLW
05-19-2009, 09:27 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

She's out of line, not you. There is absolutely no reason to play any differently in "practice" then you would in a match.

That's the point of "practice" when you play matches, you play how you should be playing in a match.

If you were the teaching pro and a 4.5 or better player then she would have some complaint maybe but you are at her skill level. Who's to say she wont see someone like you in the actual league match.

Also it's supposed to be practice for YOU as well (after all, you do play on the team, right?). Is she that selfish that she doesn't consider that?

I dont know if someone was like this on my team I would wish they were not there. This whining because someone expects another person to play down is really strange.

If someone's good enough to beat me 6-0, then I expect they should beat me 6-0, I dont want them playing down to me. (unless they are several skill levels ahead of me and it's just ******** if I cant get anything back)

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 09:28 AM
Kick her off the team.

Good luck.

Nah, no need for that.

You are 3.0 players. The great thing about 3.0 tennis is that you will undoubtedly move up. With luck, you will move up before she will. Then you can start a new team and you will lack room for people who um . . . how can I put it? . . . . haven't made the mental adjustments needed to be competitive at a higher level.

canadave
05-19-2009, 09:31 AM
I don't think it is up to the winning player to stop the set and tell the losing player what she should do differently, even in a team practice. It is up to the losing player to do that if she thinks it would be helpful.

I play a woman in practice doubles who does what you suggest. She starts winning, and then she starts saying things to her losing opponents like, "We're up two breaks. What are you guys going to start doing differently to turn it around?"

I find this *highly* obnoxious. We are grown women and experienced players. We will decide what adjustments to make, and when.

Hey, I captain teams. If I am having a practice match with teammates, I go all out (unless I'm trying to implement some new skill) and I try to win every set 6-0. And I don't coach unless I am asked *and* have a very clear idea what the others are doing wrong and some tactical suggestion.

LOL....well, I wouldn't want to phrase it quite as obnoxiously as that woman you mention! That's pretty bad--and pretty obnoxious :)

I don't know. I guess I wouldn't be good on a tennis team then. I've played on teams, and played tennis, and as far as I'm concerned in practice with teammates you try to work on your own skills but also offer to debrief with your teammate if you see they're having difficulties. I think that's preferable to simply destroying them without comment. But I'll defer to you folks, since I don't have the tennis team experience to speak authoritatively on the subject.

sureshs
05-19-2009, 09:34 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

C'mon, you wanted to boast about your serve and your win on this board. Just admit it :-)

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 09:35 AM
What did your teammates say? Come on, tell us. I'm dying to know!!

drakulie
05-19-2009, 09:39 AM
Nah, no need for that.




Sure there is. She'll learn to keep her trap shut, and play tennis. I guarantee this is the type of person that plays outside the rules and footfaults all the time.

sureshs
05-19-2009, 09:45 AM
Sure there is. She'll learn to keep her trap shut, and play tennis. I guarantee this is the type of person that plays outside the rules and footfaults all the time.

On Sunday, I was watching some high level doubles before my game (at least 4.5 I should say) - 3 men and 1 woman, and she was real good. But she footfaulted on EVERY serve. Her foot slid and moved inside the court well before the ball was struck. I don't know how to judge such people. Should I assume that they have a good serve or not? Because they may be so grooved into it that making them stop footfaulting may destroy their serve. How do these club players react to forced changes in serve habits? Do they collapse or do they adapt? Got me thinking.

drakulie
05-19-2009, 09:47 AM
^^^In my book, if a person foot faults, the serve doesn't count. So, if they can't get the ball in the box without footfaulting, then they have a crappy serve.

I agree also there is a lot of high level players who foot fault quite a bit. When they are told they are footfaulting, if it is a hitch (part of their routine) in their mechanics, it usually throws them off when they try to correct it.

Gemini
05-19-2009, 09:59 AM
seleswannabe..you were definitely NOT out of line. I wouldn't boot her off the team but I would share with her that "My objective in playing that set the way I did was to be aggressive and play my game regardless of the opponent. Practice, for me, is about developing my game, not just fun."

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 10:12 AM
If you kick her off the team (or retailiate in any way), it will be a Big Fat Scandal in your little tennis world. You will be the Bad Guy who Abused Her Power. It will be the talk of town, I assure you.

Some people get off on that kind of thing and love being the Bully, but you don't sound like that, seleswannabe.

To me, this is one of those Do Nothing, Say Nothing moments. Maybe she will come to you and apologize, maybe not. If so, that will tell you something. If not, that will also tell you something. Either way, you've nothing to gain by being small.

drakulie
05-19-2009, 10:15 AM
^^^LOL. You are truly hysterical.

goober
05-19-2009, 10:16 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

I am impressed that you can actually hit a kick serve as a 3.0.:) I really haven't seen that and I bet a lot of 3.0s you face probably haven't either. Anyways your opponent has a bad attitude. She should be glad that she got to practice against a good serve and a good player. You can have fun in beatdowns if you take it as a learning experience.

Spokewench
05-19-2009, 10:16 AM
However, I still think that as captain, you need to not just destroy someone 6-1 in a practice match against one of your players and walk away.

That being said--yeah, I agree with you and Cindy, if the losing player is just stamping her feet because she's upset she lost, then that's not cool.

I'm a captain of 4 teams. Two 3.0s and two 3.5s. I have most always in the past tried to build up my teammates when I can and if I am a better player, I will not try to trounce them all the time; but occassionally, I believe they need a wake-up call too. Otherwise, they believe they are doing really well and don't know realize that they should be working on their game too. So, sometimes, I will play full out. I think at times you owe it to your players to do that so that they will try to up their game.

I always appreciate it when I play people better than me that they just play their game and that gives me the opportunity to see faster/harder, more spin serves, more variety in shots and gives me the opportunity to figure out how to handle them.

Winning is not everything, learning is sometimes more important.

spoke

sureshs
05-19-2009, 10:29 AM
If you kick her off the team (or retailiate in any way), it will be a Big Fat Scandal in your little tennis world. You will be the Bad Guy who Abused Her Power. It will be the talk of town, I assure you.


I agree. I don't understand how kicking her off the team is even an option. She did nothing wrong but complain about a set which she thought was more for practice but her captain thought was a serious one. What is the big deal here?

blakesq
05-19-2009, 10:31 AM
No, you were not out of line. Your opponent is simply a sore loser.

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 10:32 AM
^^^LOL. You are truly hysterical.

Aw, thanks man! I aims to please. :)

Moz
05-19-2009, 10:56 AM
I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology.

I can't believe you apologised, are you some sort of doormat?

GPB
05-19-2009, 10:57 AM
Seleswannabe, you asked if you were out of line for playing the way you wanted to play. No, SHE was out of line for trying to force you to play her way. She said practice should be fun, right? Well apparently lobbing back and forth isn't what you call fun. Don't worry about it!

beernutz
05-19-2009, 10:59 AM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

Missed opportunity, you should have told her it *was* fun.

Gemini
05-19-2009, 11:04 AM
I agree. I don't understand how kicking her off the team is even an option. She did nothing wrong but complain about a set which she thought was more for practice but her captain thought was a serious one. What is the big deal here?

I agree with you both but part of the problem is in the perception of what practice is for. The loser considers practice to be about fun. I'm not going to argue that, but a "fun" practice is defined differently by different people apparently.

JRstriker12
05-19-2009, 11:11 AM
LOL....well, I wouldn't want to phrase it quite as obnoxiously as that woman you mention! That's pretty bad--and pretty obnoxious :)

I don't know. I guess I wouldn't be good on a tennis team then. I've played on teams, and played tennis, and as far as I'm concerned in practice with teammates you try to work on your own skills but also offer to debrief with your teammate if you see they're having difficulties. I think that's preferable to simply destroying them without comment. But I'll defer to you folks, since I don't have the tennis team experience to speak authoritatively on the subject.

FWIW - I may be really annoying to play someone, beat them, then give an out pouring of "advice" - seeing as you are both on the same level (in this case - 3.0). If they ask for a de-brief or advice afterwards, then sure.

I would definitely go all out in a practice match - it's the best time to simulate the real feeling of presure that you will face in a real match - something that's hard to do in drills.

Save, working on "skills" for the drills. The practice match is the time to put those skills you practiced in action under a real tennis situation. It's easy to do A, B, and C off of feeds, but a lot hard to do it when the ball isn't being fed to you.

In this case - sounds like a pusher/lob queen didn't like that she got crushed. If someone exposes a hole in your game, it's a great time to take note and work on it at next practice. For example - if she couldn't return those serves, come back next week and spend 15 minutes working on trying to return that type of serve and grow your game.

Not trying to gang up on you canadave- I can see your point in a way - but I think the player who threw a fit needs to change her thinking about improving her game. Sounds like she took it as a personal insult, instead of an opportunity to improve.

drakulie
05-19-2009, 11:17 AM
Aw, thanks man! I aims to please. :)

http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/569-1/starpig.gif

sureshs
05-19-2009, 11:30 AM
I agree with you both but part of the problem is in the perception of what practice is for. The loser considers practice to be about fun. I'm not going to argue that, but a "fun" practice is defined differently by different people apparently.

There are many unwritten rules in just "hitting," as an example. You feed to the other guy, the other guy should not hit a winner but feed it back to you, and then each one can attempt to move the other from side to side, while drop shots are frowned upon. This is one example.

seleswannabe
05-19-2009, 12:38 PM
Just got back and wow, I did not expect such a response from my post. Just wanted to make a couple of points:
*This "match" was the last 10 minutes of our team drill, with two coaches watching. Our coach and one other pro were watching. She never stopped to asked for help and they never offered any.
*Our coach is notorious for setting lineups based on the outcomes of these end of practice matches. We frequently discuss this as a team, so we "all" take them seriously, not just me.
*Her comments annoyed me but are pretty much the norm for her. Four different team members have personally told me and our coach they flat out refuse to play with her.
*sureshs - I like your comment about bragging about my serve ;) Honestly, if you saw my serve you would probably fall over laughing.

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 12:46 PM
Just got back and wow, I did not expect such a response from my post. Just wanted to make a couple of points:
*This "match" was the last 10 minutes of our team drill, with two coaches watching. Our coach and one other pro were watching. She never stopped to asked for help and they never offered any.
*Our coach is notorious for setting lineups based on the outcomes of these end of practice matches. We frequently discuss this as a team, so we "all" take them seriously, not just me.
*Her comments annoyed me but are pretty much the norm for her. Four different team members have personally told me and our coach they flat out refuse to play with her.
*sureshs - I like your comment about bragging about my serve ;) Honestly, if you saw my serve you would probably fall over laughing.

Oh, I see. You made her look bad with the coach watching.

I feel her pain, but that's just too bad.

I want to hear the follow-up to all of this, seleswannabe. What on earth will she say when the new line-up comes out and she is benched or playing a lower position? Inquiring minds want to know!! :)

seleswannabe
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Oh and Cindy, my teammates just stood there. They are used to her comments and outbursts and know it's best to just ignore her.

lovin'it
05-19-2009, 01:02 PM
this is what i sometimes hate about team tennis type settings, but before you get upset with her (and i am ALL OVER YOUR SIDE) just know this is her defensive mechanism for losing. some would sulk, some would accuse you of cheating...this was just her way, and it sounds like your teammates have seen it before.

truly, i think you learn more about people on the tennis court than sometimes knowing them for quite awhile!

don't hang your head, we all want to win, and there is an appropriate, sportman-like way to do it, and you did that. it was NOT a drill where you try to keep a ball going twenty hits...she just had to come up with SOMETHING, and this was her way...

nauseating...(excuse me!!)

Steady Eddy
05-19-2009, 01:30 PM
Let's keep this real simple. Recall: "If you don't play to win, then why keep score?" So you're keeping score, (why?), and you should only hit shots that she likes? That's the opposite of how competition works. If you don't want to do it that way, then just play points. I've often practiced where we just play out points but don't keep score. Just switch servers after every 4 points. But if you're keeping track of who's winning...then you're competing.

If you kick her off the team (or retailiate in any way), it will be a Big Fat Scandal in your little tennis world. You will be the Bad Guy who Abused Her Power. It will be the talk of town, I assure you.
I'm not sure. Maybe it's the mood I'm in now, but it might be fun to try some stuff. You can: tell her she's not playing, then call her at the last minute to play, maybe tell her, "We had a default 'cause of you.", or do the opposite, schedule her in, but then cancel her at the last minute. Keep her confused about where she stands with you, this is better than dropping her or clearing the air. I've had bosses who were truly great at this, keeping you off balance.

Will this make you the bad guy? I doubt that for several reasons. First most people are obsessed with their own lives and don't care what happens to other people. Also, you wouldn't be dropping her, so there's nothing too obvious going on. And, to others, if they see anything, just a catfight they'd want to stay away from, if they'd take a side, it's more likely yours, because you're the captain. Finally, anything more she'd say would make her look like she's holding a grudge, she got angry for no reason, you forgave, and she's still picking nits, no one will buy what she's selling. The argument to let her get away with this has more to do with timidness. You don't have to be so timid here, it's nice to win at tennis, and it's nice to win in other areas too, especially with people who start trouble with you in the first place.
Machiavelli :twisted:

JavierLW
05-19-2009, 01:36 PM
Let's keep this real simple. Recall: "If you don't play to win, then why keep score?" So you're keeping score, (why?), and you should only hit shots that she likes? That's the opposite of how competition works. If you don't want to do it that way, then just play points. I've often practiced where we just play out points but don't keep score. Just switch servers after every 4 points. But if you're keeping track of who's winning...then you're competing.


I'm not sure. Maybe it's the mood I'm in now, but it might be fun to try some stuff. You can: tell her she's not playing, then call her at the last minute to play, maybe tell her, "We had a default 'cause of you.", or do the opposite, schedule her in, but then cancel her at the last minute. Keep her confused about where she stands with you, this is better than dropping her or clearing the air. I've had bosses who were truly great at this, keeping you off balance.

Will this make you the bad guy? I doubt that for several reasons. First most people are obsessed with their own lives and don't care what happens to other people. Also, you wouldn't be dropping her, so there's nothing too obvious going on. And, to others, if they see anything, just a catfight they'd want to stay away from, if they'd take a side, it's more likely yours, because you're the captain. Finally, anything more she'd say would make her look like she's holding a grudge, she got angry for no reason, you forgave, and she's still picking nits, no one will buy what she's selling. The argument to let her get away with this has more to do with timidness. You don't have to be so timid here, it's nice to win at tennis, and it's nice to win in other areas too, especially with people who start trouble with you in the first place.
Machiavelli :twisted:

Exactly, some people are obsessed with how everyone perceives them because they dont realize that nobody cares..... (or they are so busy rattling on about other people that they assume everyone else does the same....)

Still wouldnt kick her off the team though. Players spend around $65 to join some of these teams plus whatever they paid to help pay for courts, balls, etc..... It's more of a business then anything.

The way I figure it is Im really careful to avoid picking up players that act like that, but if I get one, that's my fault, Im just going to have to put up with it.

(and it's not really all that awful as long as you understand where they are coming from)

Gemini
05-19-2009, 01:36 PM
Agreed.......

beernutz
05-19-2009, 01:57 PM
Just got back and wow, I did not expect such a response from my post. Just wanted to make a couple of points:
*This "match" was the last 10 minutes of our team drill, with two coaches watching. Our coach and one other pro were watching. She never stopped to asked for help and they never offered any.
*Our coach is notorious for setting lineups based on the outcomes of these end of practice matches. We frequently discuss this as a team, so we "all" take them seriously, not just me.
*Her comments annoyed me but are pretty much the norm for her. Four different team members have personally told me and our coach they flat out refuse to play with her.
*sureshs - I like your comment about bragging about my serve ;) Honestly, if you saw my serve you would probably fall over laughing.

Knowing all this plus what you originally wrote you have kind of taken the fun out of the question as you are obviously in the right and she obviously has issues.

The only debate to me is whether you should have kept quiet as you apparently did, or not. The 'or not' has many different options from just doing a Nelson haha in her face http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/haha.wav to letting her have it with both barrels http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/sounds/full_metal_jacket/ugly.wav.
Based on what you've said about her I don't think a confrontation is going to solve anything.

kylebarendrick
05-19-2009, 02:05 PM
The part I find most amusing is that this time it was the pusher that was complaining about their opponent's style of play not being fun. Usually it is the other way around!

Gemini
05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Exactly, some people are obsessed with how everyone perceives them because they dont realize that nobody cares..... (or they are so busy rattling on about other people that they assume everyone else does the same....)

Still wouldnt kick her off the team though. Players spend around $65 to join some of these teams plus whatever they paid to help pay for courts, balls, etc..... It's more of a business then anything.

The way I figure it is Im really careful to avoid picking up players that act like that, but if I get one, that's my fault, Im just going to have to put up with it.

(and it's not really all that awful as long as you understand where they are coming from)

I hear what you're saying. As a captain, to hear a player make that remark about practice for "fun" concerns me though. That tells me that every time she comes out to practice, she's not trying to develop as a player and she's completely content to stay in that safe place win or lose. Granted, she wins a fair bit with her style of game in doubles at her level but I would rather have someone who wins less with an attitude of building his/her game for the future than someone who wins consistently but is essentially stuck because they refuse to develop his/her skills.

I recruit players that have the basics and can compete well on their given levels but are willing to take a chance/risk and add a new skill. Overall, it helps us move forward as a team.

seleswannabe
05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Regarding kicking her off the team....I wouldn't do that, especially in this situation. We are in the same circle of friends and our daughters are friends from school. Also, at my club, the captain is more of the organizer while the coaches are the ones who "boot" people off teams. I think it's for good reason.

Cindysphinx
05-19-2009, 02:13 PM
I hear what you're saying. As a captain, to hear a player make that remark about practice for "fun" concerns me though. That tells me that every time she comes out to practice, she's not trying to develop as a player and she's completely content to stay in that safe place win or lose. Granted, she wins a fair bit with her style of game in doubles at her level but I would rather have someone who wins less with an attitude of building his/her game for the future than someone who wins consistently but is essentially stuck because they refuse to develop his/her skills.

I recruit players that have the basics and can compete well on their given levels but are willing to take a chance/risk and add a new skill. Overall, it helps us move forward as a team.

Ninety percent of the people I know fit this description and are happy with how they play and have no desire to develop as a player. It's very hard to fill a team with those who comprise the other 10% . . .

maverick66
05-19-2009, 02:14 PM
So what if she got mad and made a petty comment. You play your tennis. Its not your job to make others look good. All you can do is play as well as you can and let others worry about there own game. She got killed and her ego got hurt. By saying something other then asking the pro what she could have done differently she is showing a lack of wanting to improve. If i was the pro the score wouldnt have been my issue but where she put the blame.

seleswannabe
05-19-2009, 02:25 PM
^^Agreed Cindy. At 3.0 you pretty much take what you can get and hope to have enough people to play. Sad but true.

cak
05-19-2009, 06:31 PM
The only way you might possibly consider what you did out of line is if you are seriously short singles players and needed to stroke her ego to keep her on your available roster. Otherwise I think you were right. (Unfortunately, any team I've ever been on begs for singles players, and if you happen to beat one you win their spot, no matter how much better you are at doubles.)

Steady Eddy
05-19-2009, 06:38 PM
The only way you might possibly consider what you did out of line is if you are seriously short singles players and needed to stroke her ego to keep her on your available roster.
So in a dilemma over losing a meet and taking her crap you'd worry about losing a tennis meet? I wouldn't care much about winning or losing some adult, league thing, (esp. for 3.0s). I wouldn't take her garbage just so I don't lose some 'meet'. My opinion/values, anyway.

10sfreak
05-19-2009, 07:38 PM
seleswannabe, I don't think you did anything wrong at all. Furthermore, I think your teammate was way out of line.

cak
05-19-2009, 09:12 PM
So in a dilemma over losing a meet and taking her crap you'd worry about losing a tennis meet? I wouldn't care much about winning or losing some adult, league thing, (esp. for 3.0s). I wouldn't take her garbage just so I don't lose some 'meet'. My opinion/values, anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by a tennis 'meet'. The dilemma is fielding a team for a season, which is up to 14 regular season team matches. Sometimes the captain finds putting up with the petty, egotistical player is worth it. Sometimes not. The question is, does she need the player. If not you certainly don't have to baby her.

Steady Eddy
05-19-2009, 09:58 PM
Sometimes the captain finds putting up with the petty, egotistical player is worth it. Sometimes not. The question is, does she need the player.
Can't see how you'd need any of them. It's only 3.0 tennis. No money or prestige.

Cindysphinx
05-20-2009, 03:40 AM
Can't see how you'd need any of them. It's only 3.0 tennis. No money or prestige.

Yes, but the same can be said of men's 4.5 tennis. No money, no prestige. Yet people will come to blows over it. Level has nothing to do with it.

Either you have to take some crap to avoid defaults, or you have enough people that you don't.

Gemini
05-20-2009, 05:00 AM
^^Agreed Cindy. At 3.0 you pretty much take what you can get and hope to have enough people to play. Sad but true.

I've never found that to be the case. I'm not sure where you and Cindy are seles..but I've been able to find lots of players for respective teams that are looking to improve from the 3.0 level here in the Atlanta. I don't play on that level but I've helped build several men's teams with ambitious players because I'm actively "recruiting" players for various teams with certain "character traits". I leave the captaining to the captains but help them find players that have an A-gameplan but are more than willing to work on their B & C-gameplans to become better players.

Cindysphinx
05-20-2009, 05:41 AM
I've never found that to be the case. I'm not sure where you and Cindy are seles..but I've been able to find lots of players for respective teams that are looking to improve from the 3.0 level here in the Atlanta. I don't play on that level but I've helped build several men's teams with ambitious players because I'm actively "recruiting" players for various teams with certain "character traits". I leave the captaining to the captains but help them find players that have an A-gameplan but are more than willing to work on their B & C-gameplans to become better players.

That makes you very fortunate indeed.

I find that people are, well, busy. They have little kids. They have limited funds. They have husbands who aren't keen on the stay-at-home wife dashing off to play tennis and leaving them home alone to take care of the kids after a day of work. They are at whatever level they are at, and they see no reason to kill themselves to get to the next level, where they will simply have to play stronger players.

And they sometimes conclude that, despite the instruction they are getting and the practice they are doing, they still don't play any better or differently.

It takes a ton of commitment to improve in tennis. I can understand why people decide not to bother, but it makes it hard to find players who will try to improve.

I'm starting up a new 7.5 combo team in the fall. So far, we have no 4.0 players, so it will be tough sledding. I have a few 3.5s who take clinics and do seem to want to improve and are willing to practice. Hopefully, this core group will improve and become the 4.0 players that the team needs.

seleswannabe
05-20-2009, 06:10 AM
The only way you might possibly consider what you did out of line is if you are seriously short singles players and needed to stroke her ego to keep her on your available roster.

We've got 4-5 five people who play well at singles, so this is not a concern.

Gemini - I am in Michigan and Tennis is pretty popular here. We have 2 daytime 3.0 teams, a 3.0 Working Women's and a 3.0 Senior team. Same setup for 3.5. I think some of the problem is supply/demand here.

bluegrasser
05-20-2009, 06:29 AM
Kick her off the team.

Good luck.

It really depends on the personality of the team - IOW, I've been on USTA teams that were all about the winning & others that were all about the beer after the match.. Lately seeing how my game has went to the toilet, it's about the beer.
I think on a team when you're playing sets there should be communication between points, work on weaknesses with each other, talk... it's a team, right ?
That is, unless your competing for seeding on the team, then let the hair down a little... both barrels.

Gemini
05-20-2009, 06:59 AM
That makes you very fortunate indeed.

I find that people are, well, busy. They have little kids. They have limited funds. They have husbands who aren't keen on the stay-at-home wife dashing off to play tennis and leaving them home alone to take care of the kids after a day of work. They are at whatever level they are at, and they see no reason to kill themselves to get to the next level, where they will simply have to play stronger players.

And they sometimes conclude that, despite the instruction they are getting and the practice they are doing, they still don't play any better or differently.

It takes a ton of commitment to improve in tennis. I can understand why people decide not to bother, but it makes it hard to find players who will try to improve.

I'm starting up a new 7.5 combo team in the fall. So far, we have no 4.0 players, so it will be tough sledding. I have a few 3.5s who take clinics and do seem to want to improve and are willing to practice. Hopefully, this core group will improve and become the 4.0 players that the team needs.

Cindy,

You're exactly right! The time people would have to invest in improving is considerable. I've been fortunate enough to find guys that have total family involvement in tennis (and other athletic endeavors). Both husband, wife and sometimes the kids play so it's a trade off. There are surprising few guys on the respective teams I prospect for that do not have tennis-playing wives. The remaining guys are single (so-to-speak) so the family commitment isn't really an issue for them

Steady Eddy
05-20-2009, 07:49 AM
Yes, but the same can be said of men's 4.5 tennis. No money, no prestige. Yet people will come to blows over it. Level has nothing to do with it.

Either you have to take some crap to avoid defaults, or you have enough people that you don't.I suppose so. There's no money at the 4.5 level, but a 4.5 is a pretty good player. Not good enough to get a ranking anywhere, though, so probably can't really win prestige. Depends how far we'll take the word "crap". You have to "put up" with people, but people who are repeatedly rude, I'd try to avoid them. Can't stand deliberate rudeness. Maybe this is off topic, but at one time I played several tournaments every year. You can do that on your own. What does someone get out of joining a team? Tennis is an individual sport. The existence of a team doesn't really change that. There seems to be alot of downside, but I can't see the upside.

Verno Inferno
05-20-2009, 08:08 AM
Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

The stuff during the match was just fine, by my book. Maybe you could have handled things differently afterwards. I'm betting she felt like a loser, and she took it out on you. Instead of apologizing (which is sorta patronizing---nobody wants an "I'm sorry" from someone who beat them soundly), I'd suggest, especially since you're the captain, you could have given her pointers on the service return.

"You could at least give me a serve I can return."

"Yikes, I know. I saw you were having trouble with that kick serve. That's why it's my favorite---a lot of people at our level have problems with it. But when you're returning a kick serve, you can do (a), (b) and (c) and it will neutralize it. Let's give it a shot next week. You'll like the results. You have good groundstrokes, so if you can just get these serves back you can work yourself back into any point and you'll probably start breaking more serves."

That's my lame After School Special script. But seriously, something like that probably would have gone better than "I'm sorry that I kicked your butt so soundly."

Good luck, though! I don't have the patience for captaining something like this :)

Cindysphinx
05-20-2009, 08:15 AM
I suppose so. There's no money at the 4.5 level, but a 4.5 is a pretty good player. Not good enough to get a ranking anywhere, though, so probably can't really win prestige. Depends how far we'll take the word "crap". You have to "put up" with people, but people who are repeatedly rude, I'd try to avoid them. Can't stand deliberate rudeness. Maybe this is off topic, but at one time I played several tournaments every year. You can do that on your own. What does someone get out of joining a team? Tennis is an individual sport. The existence of a team doesn't really change that. There seems to be alot of downside, but I can't see the upside.

It's easy. With league, you know exactly when and where you will play, with plenty of notice. I can tell you now I will get about 11 matches over our 10-week season, and most of mine will be on weeknights because that is what I prefer.

With tournaments, you are at the mercy of the tournament schedule and you have to work around that. If you have kids to take to soccer practices on Saturdays and other family or work commitments, tournmaments are tough. Then add in that you can pay your fee and get bounced in the first round.

ttbrowne
05-20-2009, 08:17 AM
Haven't read the other posts but...

Wasn't your opponent TRYING to win by lobbing the whole set?!

Another thing too, if both of you are practicing...
She's practicing on her lobs and you are practicing on putting kick on your serves.

JavierLW
05-20-2009, 09:09 AM
I hear what you're saying. As a captain, to hear a player make that remark about practice for "fun" concerns me though. That tells me that every time she comes out to practice, she's not trying to develop as a player and she's completely content to stay in that safe place win or lose. Granted, she wins a fair bit with her style of game in doubles at her level but I would rather have someone who wins less with an attitude of building his/her game for the future than someone who wins consistently but is essentially stuck because they refuse to develop his/her skills.

I recruit players that have the basics and can compete well on their given levels but are willing to take a chance/risk and add a new skill. Overall, it helps us move forward as a team.

I would just be concerned because if she's complaining about not being able to deal with your game, then what happens when she meets someone like that in a real match.

The problem with having the position of trying to be the team where you expect everyone to improve is that most of these teams also try to assign matches fairly to everyone as well.

So you get stuck putting players in a situation where they may not do well and someone else that you sat out would of done better. (which isnt "fair" because maybe the person you sat out has been working a lot harder then someone else)

That's why my team is not like that. I try to give everyone a "reasonable" amount of matches, but if someone is truely better and has improved they get to play more, that's the bottom line.

Im not a tennis pro either, we dont do drills in practice, or teach lessons, if players want to improve (and thus get more playing time) they need to do that on their own, not look to their USTA League team for that.

We just play matches at practice and that's just for extra match experience more then anything. The expectation is that you should play that match just like it was for real.

Im concerned more with attitude then anything (attitude in getting thru a match).

If you have some pusher on your team who's winning, chances are it's completely out of your control whether they will change, they usually play like that for a reason (usually underdeveloped poor technique or just a general mentality).

Use them where they think they will win, and if they want to stay at 3.0 and keep winning, that's their issue.

I wouldnt worry too much about it unless it eventually means you find it hard to place them in matches on your team.

I have a guy at 3.5 like that, he'll beat almost any 3.5 singles player but at doubles he's a huge liability, we have tons of great singles players so it's hard to put him in a match, again though that's my fault for putting him on the team.

I had thoughts of him improving as well but that's totally up to him I cant be in any way responsible for that.

Steady Eddy
05-20-2009, 09:09 AM
It's easy. With league, you know exactly when and where you will play, with plenty of notice. I can tell you now I will get about 11 matches over our 10-week season, and most of mine will be on weeknights because that is what I prefer.

With tournaments, you are at the mercy of the tournament schedule and you have to work around that. If you have kids to take to soccer practices on Saturdays and other family or work commitments, tournmaments are tough. Then add in that you can pay your fee and get bounced in the first round.Know what the best thing is? My town has leagues, but they're for singles and doubles, not teams. It lasts about ten weeks, and the matches are held in the evening on the same day of the week. You play each player in the league. My schedule won't allow it for me, but I have been an alternate, and played a couple matches. You don't have to worry about getting knocked out first round like in a tournament, and it's pretty hassle free. I was started a team myself, long time ago. But then I saw it as the only way to play real matches at my level. If I ever get enough time again, (before I'm too old to play), I think I'd enter leagues by myself.

JavierLW
05-20-2009, 10:53 AM
Know what the best thing is? My town has leagues, but they're for singles and doubles, not teams. It lasts about ten weeks, and the matches are held in the evening on the same day of the week. You play each player in the league. My schedule won't allow it for me, but I have been an alternate, and played a couple matches. You don't have to worry about getting knocked out first round like in a tournament, and it's pretty hassle free. I was started a team myself, long time ago. But then I saw it as the only way to play real matches at my level. If I ever get enough time again, (before I'm too old to play), I think I'd enter leagues by myself.

That might be more for you, but there is some quality to being on a team.

The problem is a lot of the "teams" are just a random selection of people who are just there to get their tennis in anyway so that's why it's hard to see the difference.

If you look at other sports which are more traditionally known as team sports there are a lot of concepts that the layman doesn't even consider that goes on outside of the actual game itself.

Those are team chemistry, planning, unselfishness, and just the general feeling of belonging to a group.

I dont want to go into too much detail but if you're on the right tennis team those are all there.

But once you get onto the court obviously it's an individual sport. (except if you consider that 6 of the 8 players play doubles usually which is a team sport within itself)

Really if you dont have those things I think not only is it less fun to play on these teams, it's even less fulfilling to try to run one. (after all Im not the tennis match maker, we dont get paid or anything to be captain of a League team)

This is also another reason I would have an issue with anyone who's "laying into me" in front of everyone on the team.

That's just a bad attitude to have and I cant personally stand people who whine and complain all the time about stuff. I lose matches all the time and I know the worst thing you can do is start to whine, and saying "waah, you didnt play the right way!!!!" is the worst.

If they are not happy, they should leave, or if they want to discuss it with me rationally they can talk to me in private. (and I think they are making themselves look bad more then anything)

Steady Eddy
05-20-2009, 12:16 PM
That's just a bad attitude to have and I cant personally stand people who whine and complain all the time about stuff. I lose matches all the time and I know the worst thing you can do is start to whine, and saying "waah, you didnt play the right way!!!!" is the worst.
That actually made me laugh. (I don't believe most "lol"s). Is tennis the only game where people contribute a loss to the opponents bad playing? When my older brother first started teaching me tennis, he explained that the only reason I won lots of points off him was because I was such a bad player he couldn't get a rythm. He said that after I improved I wouldn't get any points at all. I found this baffling. Even more curious, is that now, I recognise that there is some truth to it. How many threads have I seen that go, "I'm doing what my instructor says to do, my opponent does everything wrong. Yet I'm the one who losses! Go figure."

Bud
05-20-2009, 12:27 PM
I am captain of a women's 3.0 team. Today, at the end of our 1.5 hours drill (we had 6 attendees) we played 1 doubles match and 1 singles match. I played singles against this gal who is maybe 3 years older than me, decent doubles player but is basically a lobbing backboard in singles. She has gotten many wins for our team this way, so I'm not complaining.
At any rate, I have a tough time just lobbing back and forth since I get extremely bored and annoyed. I like to play attacking tennis. So, after playing a passive and tight first service game from me and her holding serve @ 40-0 I decided to go for a bit more on my serve and my shots. After all, I run up against people like this a lot in matches and sometimes have a tough time playing my game vs. "theirs". So, I was really putting some kick on my serve and attacking the net. I ended up winning 6-1 pretty quickly. Afterward, in front of the entire team she laid into me saying that practice is supposed to be about "fun" and that is EXACTLY what she does not like about singles. The kicker was when she said, "you could at least give me a serve I can return". I actually took that as a compliment :) I apologized and she spat back that she was not looking for an apology. Was I really that much of a "you know what"? After all I am just a 3.0 player, I can't move mountains.

That'll teach HER to play with the likes of you :lol:

She'll live :mrgreen:

Sublime
05-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Guess how you learn to handle a moonballer / lobber...
Guess how she eventually learns to handle a kick serve...

There's a guy on our team that has a wicked kick serve... it breaks a good 3 or 4 feet and gets up over your shoulder at the baseline. Guess which serve I ask him to hit to me at practice?

BTW, next time work on your overheads from the baseline. You get those cooking back at her and you'll really get an earful :)

beernutz
05-20-2009, 01:34 PM
That actually made me laugh. (I don't believe most "lol"s). Is tennis the only game where people contribute a loss to the opponents bad playing? When my older brother first started teaching me tennis, he explained that the only reason I won lots of points off him was because I was such a bad player he couldn't get a rythm. He said that after I improved I wouldn't get any points at all. I found this baffling. Even more curious, is that now, I recognise that there is some truth to it. How many threads have I seen that go, "I'm doing what my instructor says to do, my opponent does everything wrong. Yet I'm the one who losses! Go figure."

I don't think it is the only game where this happens. My daughter's soccer team was coached by a guy who played Div. 1 college soccer on scholarship, then played a bit of semi-pro soccer after graduation. He's played his whole life and knows head-and-shoulders more about soccer than anyone I've ever met.

Undoubtedly he was coaching the 10 year old girl's team my daughter played on with the proper techniques and fundamentals and using appropriate soccer strategy and player placement during the game. Unfortunately, the other teams didn't care about all that, they just wanted to win. Their 'strategy' was that they would have almost all of their players around the ball at all times and score goals. Our team, which had some pretty good little athletes on it was constrained by the coaches proper player placement and would get overwhelmed. They lost every game and none of them were close.

I'm sure our girls will be better off in the long run, those that decide to stay with soccer after that unmerciful season was over anyway, having learned many good techniques and strategies. However, I know for a fact that most of them lost interest and quit because what kid likes getting their tails handed to them each and every week?

Somehow this anecdote seems related to what you were saying but if not then just ignore it.

maverick66
05-20-2009, 01:41 PM
You cant use 10 yo soccer as an example. there not old enough to have a skill set to beat anything but mad rush to the ball. If you did that at a high school level and on you would get killed by teams that move the ball.

Cindysphinx
05-20-2009, 02:23 PM
Somehow this anecdote seems related to what you were saying but if not then just ignore it.

Here, let me help.

It sounds like the coach's strategies were out of synch with the players' abilities. It would be like taking beginning tennis players and telling them they must S&V. They will loses matches for about five years until their skills catch up with their strategy.

: awkward pause :

Um . . . No, I couldn't relate the soccer story to anything in this thread either, but it was a great story! :)

beernutz
05-20-2009, 02:38 PM
You cant use 10 yo soccer as an example. there not old enough to have a skill set to beat anything but mad rush to the ball. If you did that at a high school level and on you would get killed by teams that move the ball.

I don't know, I think the same applies to tennis. Tennis players above a certain level are not going to be thrown off their game by players with bad technique and poor shot selection. They are going to crush them the vast majority of the time imo.

Steady Eddy
05-20-2009, 03:22 PM
I don't know, I think the same applies to tennis. Tennis players above a certain level are not going to be thrown off their game by players with bad technique and poor shot selection. They are going to crush them the vast majority of the time imo.I think that in most sports it might be so that what works NOW, is not what you should practice. And in tennis, you look better when playing against better players, and look crummy playing a bad player who sprays it around. Certainly you improve faster in tennis and soccer, playing good players or teams.

burosky
05-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Here, let me help.

It sounds like the coach's strategies were out of synch with the players' abilities. It would be like taking beginning tennis players and telling them they must S&V. They will loses matches for about five years until their skills catch up with their strategy.

: awkward pause :

Um . . . No, I couldn't relate the soccer story to anything in this thread either, but it was a great story! :)

This is a typical problem with some coaches. It is like teaching someone algebra first before teaching simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

maverick66
05-20-2009, 03:53 PM
I don't know, I think the same applies to tennis. Tennis players above a certain level are not going to be thrown off their game by players with bad technique and poor shot selection. They are going to crush them the vast majority of the time imo.

No it doesn't. Ten yo soccer players have not developed into players that can use there skills. Both teams will not be able to play at a high level. Once they get older and able to move the ball around the swarming strategy fails miserably.


What he was talking about was tennis players who are a decent level losing to ones that are not. What happens is the decent player gets used to a certain ball and can not adjust to the garbage that is coming at them. This is why good players can easily walk past these players as they adjust there game to it.

Gemini
05-21-2009, 05:19 AM
I would just be concerned because if she's complaining about not being able to deal with your game, then what happens when she meets someone like that in a real match.

The problem with having the position of trying to be the team where you expect everyone to improve is that most of these teams also try to assign matches fairly to everyone as well.

So you get stuck putting players in a situation where they may not do well and someone else that you sat out would of done better. (which isnt "fair" because maybe the person you sat out has been working a lot harder then someone else)

That's why my team is not like that. I try to give everyone a "reasonable" amount of matches, but if someone is truely better and has improved they get to play more, that's the bottom line.

Im not a tennis pro either, we dont do drills in practice, or teach lessons, if players want to improve (and thus get more playing time) they need to do that on their own, not look to their USTA League team for that.

We just play matches at practice and that's just for extra match experience more then anything. The expectation is that you should play that match just like it was for real.

Im concerned more with attitude then anything (attitude in getting thru a match).

If you have some pusher on your team who's winning, chances are it's completely out of your control whether they will change, they usually play like that for a reason (usually underdeveloped poor technique or just a general mentality).

Use them where they think they will win, and if they want to stay at 3.0 and keep winning, that's their issue.

I wouldnt worry too much about it unless it eventually means you find it hard to place them in matches on your team.

I have a guy at 3.5 like that, he'll beat almost any 3.5 singles player but at doubles he's a huge liability, we have tons of great singles players so it's hard to put him in a match, again though that's my fault for putting him on the team.

I had thoughts of him improving as well but that's totally up to him I cant be in any way responsible for that.

Like I said before, I don't play on the 3.0-4.0 level teams but I do spend a lot of time recruiting for those teams so I tend to seek out players that are ambitious and want to advance their skills. I never said I expect them to improve but they have the willingness to improve.

What I'm getting at is that the players I recruit have the right attitude and compete well as opposed to those like seleswannabe's opponent. If you get out there and I can see that you're trying different things to improve your shots or affect your opponents shot selection then you're most likely a player I'm going to go after to be on a team.

Once again, with me not playing on the 3.0-4.0 level teams, I spend a good deal of time aiding (<- is that a word) those captains in scheduling their lineups so that 1.) everyone plays the required minimum of league matches to be eligible for playoffs should that happen and 2.) we have the strongest lineups possible each week given the number of available players.

Cindysphinx
05-21-2009, 01:16 PM
At 3.0 it's hard to believe you have such a killer serve. But in any case I don't think it benefits anyone to "go easy" on an opponent unless your level is so much higher that you shouldn't really be playing against them in a competitive match. We only learn by playing people who are better than us. That said, try to be encouraging of those who are lesser players than you.

I believe OP has a killer serve at 3.0, and I've never seen her serve.

I say that because the definition of a "killer serve" at 3.0 is a serve that other 3.0s struggle to return.

Hey, I was a 3.0 once, and I had spin on my serves that gave other 3.0s fits. Slice, kick, twist, I had it all. If you're in the habit of chasing bad tosses and you have a Continental grip, you can generate all manner of weirdness with your serve! :)

nfor304
05-22-2009, 07:55 PM
Way out of line imo. To me i would find it insulting if i were playing a practice match and my team captain was deliberately playing below their abilities.

nfor304
05-22-2009, 07:55 PM
As in the other person was way out of line.... not You Seles

NE14Tennis?
05-23-2009, 07:16 AM
First off, I don't think you did anything wrong. Secondly, if, after the first two games, you had said to your opponent, "Is it okay if I step it up a bit?" I sincerely doubt she would have said, "Gee, I dunno - this is upposed to be just for fun."

Secondly, in regards to:
Gemini - I am in Michigan and Tennis is pretty popular here. We have 2 daytime 3.0 teams, a 3.0 Working Women's and a 3.0 Senior team. Same setup for 3.5. I think some of the problem is supply/demand here.
I couldn't disagree more. I'm in Ann Arbor and have a devil of a time finding players to hit or play with. Maybe other parts of Michigan...