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Cindysphinx
05-22-2009, 05:07 AM
We reached a new low in USTA league tennis last night.

We were playing a team that is trying (again) to get to Nationals. Captain is crazy competitive. Nice on the outside, will cut-your-throat-and-eat-your-tonsils to win a match on the inside. She has an official role with the league and has captained for years. One should be able to expect exemplary behavior from someone like that, right?

We play timed matches in our league, and we were supposed to start at 7 pm. Rules say line-ups are exchanged no later than 5 minutes before match time. Mandatory penalty for a late exchange is loss of toss and one game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match time is a 5-court default. Captains are supposed to meet each other in the lobby.

At 10 minutes before match time, all of my players were there. Opposing captain and most of her players were in the lobby, so I asked if she was ready to exchange. She said she was missing two players, so not yet. I waited.

At 6 minutes before match time, I looked up and she had disappeared. Hmmmm. Maybe she was out front trying to get a good cell phone signal. Nope. I go back in the lobby and it is 5 minutes before match time. Still no sign of her.

I ask one of my players where she was. My player said, "Oh, they're all in the bathroom." I go in the bathroom and sure enough, all of them are sitting in the dressing room. Why? To avoid exchanging line-ups because they were still short a player, obviously.

I barge in and say, "It's time to exchange. Are you ready?" She looks me dead in the eye and says, "I still have two more minutes."

OK, this was a complete falsehood. It was by then 6:57. Apparently the problem was that she had two players on the way and didn't know which one would make it. I get it. Had she guessed the wrong one and the player was more than 10 minutes late, she would forfeit that court.

So I stood there, with two choices: (1) Have a big hissy fit and argument about *what time it was* and demand the loss of toss and a game on all courts; or (2) Do nothing.

I chose to do nothing. I am pushing 50. I try to live a quiet life. I do this for fun. I am not in the mood to raise my blood pressure because someone in an official capacity with the league has chosen to *cheat* and to *lie.* Besides, the chances that the hissy fit would achieve anything were zilch. I demand a penalty, she refuses to give it. Then what? You can't play a match when one team says the score is 0-0 and the other says it is 1-0. The remedy would have been to document things as best as I could and refuse to play unless the penalty was given, pushing the issue to a grievance.

I turned around and left and stood with my cell phone in the lobby. She came out of the bathroom about a minute later and exchanged. We played the matches, and we were badly defeated on four courts (winning the one court where the lady came late).

Still. I am of half a mind to write to her today and give her a First Rate Scolding, just to let her know that I know precisely what she was doing and such behavior is inappropriate for someone in her position. Then again, I see little upside for myself personally in making trouble. The last thing I need is an enemy with the power to make life difficult.

The frustrating thing is that she didn't need to go hide in the bathroom to achieve her objective of avoiding penalties that were entirely appropriate. All she had to do was say, "Hey, Cindy. I've got a problem. I don't know which of two people is going to show up for No. 2 singles. Can we work something out?" Being a Grey instead of a Black And White, I would have waived the penalty or let her substitute whichever player showed up first or whatever, as we came there to play tennis not collect defaults.

She wasn't decent enough to play it straight. That is indeed quite sad.

Cindy -- unsure how she is going to get the bad taste out of her mouth

origmarm
05-22-2009, 05:12 AM
You did the right thing imo. As you say, you were there to play tennis, not collect defaults. I agree with your distaste though, I can't post my true thoughts on this type of behaviour due to forum policy but suffice to say it is extremely low. Moral high ground over justice in these situations I feel, you're a better person for it.

PimpMyGame
05-22-2009, 05:26 AM
I also think you did the right thing. Reacting now may look like sour grapes and ultimately doesn't change anything.

I had a match last year where 3 out of 4 of the other team had a major falling out between them (it was about who was going to partner the coach they had on the team) and all 4 left the courts stating they were going home. We were left a little bemused but our captain went after them and they eventually decided to forget their differences and play the match. Then they beat us. Their captain was obnoxious which made matters worse, and that defeat really hurt. But in any case we chose to play and had no comeback afterwards. If I had my time again I would wrestle the scorecard from our captain, sit on him and fill it out as a walkover before they could decide to come back on court.

Hindsight is always 20/20!

Steady Eddy
05-22-2009, 05:28 AM
Maybe this is off topic, but it reminds me of the first U.S. televised Wimbeldon final. The network, (CBS, I think), asked if the final could start 5 minutes later, so that they could run some commercials. Wimbeldon being Wimbeldon, they said "no". So the network asked Roscoe Tanner for help. He hid in the bathroom for 5 minutes so the network got the time they wanted. So it seems bathrooms can be a refuge. Maybe this is where this team got the idea?

Nellie
05-22-2009, 05:37 AM
My advice - next time, don't go looking because it puts you in a bad spot. That other captain knew what she was doing was wrong, but rules are rules, and I am certain she would have enforced them against you in the reverse situation. Next time, wait in the lobby. If the captain comes from the bathroom late, and you say the exchange is late and too bad. If she does not like it, tell her to complain to the league, which will do nothing, since they never do anything! But once you agree to the late exchange, you are stuck with it.

bluegrasser
05-22-2009, 05:39 AM
Things happen, why have a hissy fit - I remember playing a match that I was five minutes late + I was the co/captain and playing #1 singles, well the guy I was to play and captain of the other team got in my face in a real confrontational manner, gathered his players together to have a vote whether they should forfeit us or not.
The guy had me so peeved that I lost the match 4&4, which I should of won, but my anger got the best of me..sigh - i think we lost the match 3-2.

drakulie
05-22-2009, 05:55 AM
So I stood there, with two choices: (1) Have a big hissy fit and argument about *what time it was* and demand the loss of toss and a game on all courts; or (2) Do nothing.

I chose to do nothing.



Tuff. Next time, do something, rather than having a "hissy fit" on the net. Once again, you let your team down.

sureshs
05-22-2009, 06:14 AM
Cell phone times are what I would go by. Much more accurate and less prone to argument compared to wall clocks, car clocks or watches.

slick
05-22-2009, 06:21 AM
I read your posts because your psychologic state interests me. You seem to have a need for affirmation in everything you do. In a lifetime of tennis I have not had nearly the number of issues you have had on a tennis court in a single week.

Let me try to help. You like to play tennis, right? You are in a USTA league to play tennis, correct? If this is this case why would you want to win a match by default, or win a tainted match where you got some free games because someone is 2 minutes late? Why would this even bother you? I would be relieved that they showed up so I WOULDN'T default because I like to play. A win isn't a win to me if I got freebies, no pleasure for me in that.

There are a lot of weanies here who believe ever minute detail of the rules should be followed to the letter. Pursue this at you own peril. You will enjoy the game less and people will not enjoy playing with you.

To play this game you must play other human beings. They won't always be on time. They will miss line calls. They may serve underhand. They may talk to much...etc...etc.

Ask yourself. Do you want to play?

Gemini
05-22-2009, 06:29 AM
Cindy, I commend you for doing what you felt was right for your situation. You didn't want to get emotionally rattled and worked up prior to the match. But..everyone that's allowed this woman to pull the stunt she did with you is just enabling her. I'm by no means a confrontational person but she needed to be reminded of what the rules are.

cak
05-22-2009, 06:33 AM
She has an official role with the league and has captained for years. One should be able to expect exemplary behavior from someone like that, right?

As much as I would like to believe this, I haven't found this to be true. I've found the more some people captain the less exemplary behavior they have. They have picked up, through experience with other captains, all the possible head games and tricks that could be played.

Those that are really into ways of getting around the rules tend to be drawn toward official roles with the league in adult league tennis. Volunteers or staff in other USTA capacities (junior programs, quick start, etc) often are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. People working in adult league are often doing it to get something out of it for themselves.

It shouldn't be. But that seems to be the way it is.

PimpMyGame
05-22-2009, 06:46 AM
I read your posts because your psychologic state interests me. You seem to have a need for affirmation in everything you do. In a lifetime of tennis I have not had nearly the number of issues you have had on a tennis court in a single week.

Why does someone's psychological state interest you when all you have to go on is forum posts on the internet?

Some people like to discuss their experiences on court. This wrankles with other members, but to draw conclusions about someone's psychological state in this manner is a little absurd.

Let me try to help. You like to play tennis, right? You are in a USTA league to play tennis, correct? If this is this case why would you want to win a match by default, or win a tainted match where you got some free games because someone is 2 minutes late? Why would this even bother you? I would be relieved that they showed up so I WOULDN'T default because I like to play. A win isn't a win to me if I got freebies, no pleasure for me in that.

Let me try to help. Many rules are there to back up the courteous nature of how the game is supposed to be played, and to facilitate any timed matches rules that are in force. A little bureaucratic maybe but they are there for a reason. In some leagues you will never be thanked for bending the rules, and you can never expect the same judicious treatment from your opponents.

There are a lot of weanies here who believe ever minute detail of the rules should be followed to the letter. Pursue this at you own peril. You will enjoy the game less and people will not enjoy playing with you.

To play this game you must play other human beings. They won't always be on time. They will miss line calls. They may serve underhand. They may talk to much...etc...etc.

Ask yourself. Do you want to play?

If you don't like Cindy's posts you can always ignore them, rather than try your amateur psychology.

sureshs
05-22-2009, 06:54 AM
These fights always seem to happen in women's or mixed events. Why are women so mean to each other? Is it as simple as BJK's explanation - since men dominate them, they show their power over each other when they can? Or does it have a more complex evolutionary explanation arising from the competition to attract and catch a male mate with whom to further the species? Does the female of the species have an innate need for structure and communication? Structure as in keeping time and following the Code, which had its origins in maintaining the clean environment needed to raise children in the pre-antibacterial soap days, while the men just went out and had fun in the dirt? Communication as in creating a social empathy network because it takes a village to raise a child? Women as communicators keeping alive the oral traditions from generation to generation?

These are the things that interest me now.

Jim A
05-22-2009, 07:00 AM
It is posts like this that make me happy I'm a guy. Our matches start at 6pm, I've seen quite a few teams just be upfront and say "so and so is in traffic and coming from point b, he'll be here by 6:10" and the other captain goes "ok, we have player x who is running 5 min late as well" there is no hiding in the bathroom, everyone is hanging out, warming up, bs'ing beforehand for the most part.

Nellie
05-22-2009, 07:04 AM
I read your posts because your psychologic state interests me. You seem to have a need for affirmation in everything you do. In a lifetime of tennis I have not had nearly the number of issues you have had on a tennis court in a single week.

Let me try to help. You like to play tennis, right? You are in a USTA league to play tennis, correct? If this is this case why would you want to win a match by default, or win a tainted match where you got some free games because someone is 2 minutes late? Why would this even bother you? I would be relieved that they showed up so I WOULDN'T default because I like to play. A win isn't a win to me if I got freebies, no pleasure for me in that.

There are a lot of weanies here who believe ever minute detail of the rules should be followed to the letter. Pursue this at you own peril. You will enjoy the game less and people will not enjoy playing with you.

To play this game you must play other human beings. They won't always be on time. They will miss line calls. They may serve underhand. They may talk to much...etc...etc.

Ask yourself. Do you want to play?

The various league rules exist for a reason - because some one was a jerk at some time. And that is what keeps people from enjoying playing tennis. I can guarantee that Cindy enjoys 99% of her matches, but it is the other 1% of times, like this, which are really irritating.

Going back to your example, if you don't default people for coming late, they came late all of the time. You may think it is not fun to win by default, but it is not fun to wait for late people either, especially when you are paying $36 per hour for indoor time, and the match is timed and must end in 1.5 hours because another match is starting immediately. I can drive up to an hour, each way, for a match, and it is irritating to have people arrive 15-20 minutes late. If I am not in a rush and don't have a time limit, I could care less if the opponent arrives late. Even the Slams will default a player for arriving late.

If everyone behaved properly, we would not need rules, even with pros/tournement/college players, for example, about going to the bathroom. If I am with my friends and someone has to go, they go. If I am at a league match (again paying $36 per hour) and someone leaves for 30 minutes after winning the first set and, then , comes back to claim the match because time has expired, I am going to be ticked off. I know this is all for fun, but acts like that take the fun out of it. I know I have defaulted a couple of matches by getting stuck in traffic, but in the end, I have no one to blame except for myself - I am not going to complain that the other team should not enforce the rules I agree to when I join the league.

Are there rules I bend - sure. My league requires Penn balls because the league gets some money. If you bring Wilsons, I won't complain. Home teams are supposed to bring new cans, and if you bring dead balls I will refuse to play. I am not going to have a bad time playing tennis if the opponent is being cheap.

Cindy, herself, in the original said that she would gladly bend the technical rule (meant to prevent you from viewing the other team's lineup and monkeying with the roster to create mismatches) if the other captain just asked. Cindy's issue was that the other team went in mass to hide in the bathroom to avoid the lineup exchange. Me - I would not hunt someone down in the bathroom, but if I saw someone doing this, I would enforce that penalty to the letter of the rules becauce he/she is being a jerk.

JavierLW
05-22-2009, 07:12 AM
Are there rules I bend - sure. My league requires Penn balls because the league gets some money. If you bring Wilsons, I won't complain. Home teams are supposed to bring new cans, and if you bring dead balls I will refuse to play. I am not going to have a bad time playing tennis if the opponent is being cheap.


Ha, my league used to have that rule as well long ago. That's a real crock anyway, if your team is buying the balls it's none of the league's business what brand you buy.

You dont get any of that sponsership money (unless they are lowering your registration fee which is usually between $22-$25 depending on what they are tacking onto it)

If they provide you with the balls then they can control what brand you use.

That rule is kind of like following the directions on the box for macaroni and cheese where it says to boil your water for exactly 20 minutes or whatever it says to do.

slick
05-22-2009, 07:24 AM
These fights always seem to happen in women's or mixed events. Why are women so mean to each other? Is it as simple as BJK's explanation - since men dominate them, they show their power over each other when they can? Or does it have a more complex evolutionary explanation arising from the competition to attract and catch a male mate with whom to further the species? Does the female of the species have an innate need for structure and communication? Structure as in keeping time and following the Code, which had its origins in maintaining the clean environment needed to raise children in the pre-antibacterial soap days, while the men just went out and had fun in the dirt? Communication as in creating a social empathy network because it takes a village to raise a child? Women as communicators keeping alive the oral traditions from generation to generation?

These are the things that interest me now.


You may be on to something suresh. My wife is el capitan of her 3.5 team. The drama is endless.

In the men's 4.5 matches it is rare that everyone is actually exactly on time and nobody gets their panties in a bunch or hides in bathrooms.

Hokiez
05-22-2009, 07:38 AM
You may be on to something suresh. My wife is el capitan of her 3.5 team. The drama is endless.

In the men's 4.5 matches it is rare that everyone is actually exactly on time and nobody gets their panties in a bunch or hides in bathrooms.

I think you made the right decision ultimately but why did you get so worked up over it if in your own words, you'd have let her do what she did anyways. It's a bit irritating the path she took, granted, but you may have been able to make yourself feel better if you'd simply told her up-front that you understood she was waiting for a couple players and we'll just settle that one when they show as we're just here to play.

I'm continually amazed by our seriously people take recreational activities. They must have some other deficiency in their lives they are trying to make up for.

sureshs
05-22-2009, 07:46 AM
You may be on to something suresh. My wife is el capitan of her 3.5 team. The drama is endless.

In the men's 4.5 matches it is rare that everyone is actually exactly on time and nobody gets their panties in a bunch or hides in bathrooms.

If one of the men is wearing panties, that would be a different kind of drama.

About a month and half ago, I faced this woman is pure social mixed dubs play who was making insulting remarks all the time directed towards me and my partner. Being thick-skinned, I didn't quite catch on, which was a blessing. Turned out she was a stickler for the serving team gathering all the 3 balls into a neat pile on the service line at the end of the service game for the other team to pick up. Interestingly, she never said this directly, but just threw in weird comments. The match ended with my partner calling her a beach.

After that, I get to meet her in the restaurant's bar at the club every other weekend after play, and she is a totally different person. Her oncourt behavior also changed. It seems to be obnoxious to people she meets the first time, and then thaws once she gets familar with them - then she doesn't mind their ball-placement habits. But she still does have the habit of shaking her head during matches and saying: "Cindy does NOT like to lose. Uhm, no, no." (Name changed to protect her identity.)

lovin'it
05-22-2009, 08:31 AM
You may be on to something suresh. My wife is el capitan of her 3.5 team. The drama is endless.

In the men's 4.5 matches it is rare that everyone is actually exactly on time and nobody gets their panties in a bunch or hides in bathrooms.i guess it is comforting to see panties in a wad in places other than my area!??! i tell you, the drama is NOT what i play for, where, other than a man's team, can i find it? as a sex change seems a bit radical! :)

should this forum be renamed??

Cindysphinx
05-22-2009, 08:40 AM
My advice - next time, don't go looking because it puts you in a bad spot. That other captain knew what she was doing was wrong, but rules are rules, and I am certain she would have enforced them against you in the reverse situation. Next time, wait in the lobby. If the captain comes from the bathroom late, and you say the exchange is late and too bad. If she does not like it, tell her to complain to the league, which will do nothing, since they never do anything! But once you agree to the late exchange, you are stuck with it.

Oh, I had to go look for her and demand the line-up. Had I not, then she could have waited as long as she wanted and then come out and said either (1) "Oh dear, I was ready but I didn't know where you were," or (2) "We were both equally late, so no penalty can be taken," or even "You're late, so we're going to take a penalty against you." I think I would lose a grievance if I don't actually demand the line-up.

Besides, this happened to one of my substitute captains with a different opponent so I know how the Disappearing Captain Routine works.

In that case, I wasn't there. Substitute captain was waiting on the courts to exchange line-ups (at a very large tennis facility). Eventually the other captain and her team came up, but they were late with the line-up. They said they had been waiting in the lobby (I genuinely believe this was true; it's a busy place). My substitute captain tried to claim the lateness penalty, and the other captain said to go pound sand. My substitute captain had to back down, of course.

I later asked the league administrator where captains should meet and how this should be handled, and that is when it was decreed that captains are to meet in the lobby. He also said that if the other captain disputes the penalty at that time, there is little you can do.

Eh, we'll let Tennis Karma take care of her and her team . . . .

SteveI
05-22-2009, 08:47 AM
We reached a new low in USTA league tennis last night.

We were playing a team that is trying (again) to get to Nationals. Captain is crazy competitive. Nice on the outside, will cut-your-throat-and-eat-your-tonsils to win a match on the inside. She has an official role with the league and has captained for years. One should be able to expect exemplary behavior from someone like that, right?

We play timed matches in our league, and we were supposed to start at 7 pm. Rules say line-ups are exchanged no later than 5 minutes before match time. Mandatory penalty for a late exchange is loss of toss and one game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match time is a 5-court default. Captains are supposed to meet each other in the lobby.

At 10 minutes before match time, all of my players were there. Opposing captain and most of her players were in the lobby, so I asked if she was ready to exchange. She said she was missing two players, so not yet. I waited.

At 6 minutes before match time, I looked up and she had disappeared. Hmmmm. Maybe she was out front trying to get a good cell phone signal. Nope. I go back in the lobby and it is 5 minutes before match time. Still no sign of her.

I ask one of my players where she was. My player said, "Oh, they're all in the bathroom." I go in the bathroom and sure enough, all of them are sitting in the dressing room. Why? To avoid exchanging line-ups because they were still short a player, obviously.

I barge in and say, "It's time to exchange. Are you ready?" She looks me dead in the eye and says, "I still have two more minutes."

OK, this was a complete falsehood. It was by then 6:57. Apparently the problem was that she had two players on the way and didn't know which one would make it. I get it. Had she guessed the wrong one and the player was more than 10 minutes late, she would forfeit that court.

So I stood there, with two choices: (1) Have a big hissy fit and argument about *what time it was* and demand the loss of toss and a game on all courts; or (2) Do nothing.

I chose to do nothing. I am pushing 50. I try to live a quiet life. I do this for fun. I am not in the mood to raise my blood pressure because someone in an official capacity with the league has chosen to *cheat* and to *lie.* Besides, the chances that the hissy fit would achieve anything were zilch. I demand a penalty, she refuses to give it. Then what? You can't play a match when one team says the score is 0-0 and the other says it is 1-0. The remedy would have been to document things as best as I could and refuse to play unless the penalty was given, pushing the issue to a grievance.

I turned around and left and stood with my cell phone in the lobby. She came out of the bathroom about a minute later and exchanged. We played the matches, and we were badly defeated on four courts (winning the one court where the lady came late).

Still. I am of half a mind to write to her today and give her a First Rate Scolding, just to let her know that I know precisely what she was doing and such behavior is inappropriate for someone in her position. Then again, I see little upside for myself personally in making trouble. The last thing I need is an enemy with the power to make life difficult.

The frustrating thing is that she didn't need to go hide in the bathroom to achieve her objective of avoiding penalties that were entirely appropriate. All she had to do was say, "Hey, Cindy. I've got a problem. I don't know which of two people is going to show up for No. 2 singles. Can we work something out?" Being a Grey instead of a Black And White, I would have waived the penalty or let her substitute whichever player showed up first or whatever, as we came there to play tennis not collect defaults.

She wasn't decent enough to play it straight. That is indeed quite sad.

Cindy -- unsure how she is going to get the bad taste out of her mouth

Cindy,

I coach two HS teams... have played USTA and was a coach for a USTA Junior Team Tennis team. In most cases, "we" are on our honor as captains, coaches.. etc. In other sports there are "powers" that keep the clock, score and manage the game. If someone is not playing it "straight up", all you can do it voice your concerns to the other coach, captain and make your case to the higher ups later. Some folks live and play with no honor.. such is life.

Steady Eddy
05-22-2009, 09:00 AM
I read your posts because your psychologic state interests me. You seem to have a need for affirmation in everything you do. In a lifetime of tennis I have not had nearly the number of issues you have had on a tennis court in a single week.
It interests me too. What even greater crisis will have happened by the end of today?

Let me try to help. You like to play tennis, right? You are in a USTA league to play tennis, correct? If this is this case why would you want to win a match by default, or win a tainted match where you got some free games because someone is 2 minutes late? Why would this even bother you? I would be relieved that they showed up so I WOULDN'T default because I like to play. A win isn't a win to me if I got freebies, no pleasure for me in that.
What if you could go undefeated by having a whole season of defaults? Oh boy! Not really, you want to play tennis. The league and the standings might add some fun, but they're not really the point. Sure they're goofy for hanging out in the bathroom, but they did have people who showed up to play tennis, so all is well that ends well.
To play this game you must play other human beings. They won't always be on time. They will miss line calls. They may serve underhand. They may talk to much...etc...etc.

Ask yourself. Do you want to play?
It seems that playing tennis is not a high priority for some. Maybe some want a drama-producing-activity?

shell
05-22-2009, 09:09 AM
Just play the match and don't worry about it.

sureshs
05-22-2009, 09:49 AM
I wonder how "lobby" is defined. At the semi-private, semi-public facility that I play at usually, there are 3 candidates:

1. The main office, near the gym, which is the master controller for lighting of tennis courts and adjoining baseball fields, and of the vending machines, as well as the place where the martial arts, gymnastics and other teachers and students hang around.

2. The tennis office on the side of the gym, whose existence is mostly unknown to those who play only baseball, soccer or cricket on the baseball fields.

3. The 2 big areas, one near the lower courts, and one near the upper courts (there are two levels, this is a hilly place) where most tennis players hang out before a game or to watch others or socialize.

I can easily see big issues arising about "meeting in the lobby."

drakulie
05-22-2009, 10:02 AM
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z85/yenterjanelle/Days_Of_Our_Lives_Logo.jpg

JavierLW
05-22-2009, 10:27 AM
We reached a new low in USTA league tennis last night.

We were playing a team that is trying (again) to get to Nationals. Captain is crazy competitive. Nice on the outside, will cut-your-throat-and-eat-your-tonsils to win a match on the inside. She has an official role with the league and has captained for years. One should be able to expect exemplary behavior from someone like that, right?

We play timed matches in our league, and we were supposed to start at 7 pm. Rules say line-ups are exchanged no later than 5 minutes before match time. Mandatory penalty for a late exchange is loss of toss and one game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match time is a 5-court default. Captains are supposed to meet each other in the lobby.

At 10 minutes before match time, all of my players were there. Opposing captain and most of her players were in the lobby, so I asked if she was ready to exchange. She said she was missing two players, so not yet. I waited.

At 6 minutes before match time, I looked up and she had disappeared. Hmmmm. Maybe she was out front trying to get a good cell phone signal. Nope. I go back in the lobby and it is 5 minutes before match time. Still no sign of her.

I ask one of my players where she was. My player said, "Oh, they're all in the bathroom." I go in the bathroom and sure enough, all of them are sitting in the dressing room. Why? To avoid exchanging line-ups because they were still short a player, obviously.

I barge in and say, "It's time to exchange. Are you ready?" She looks me dead in the eye and says, "I still have two more minutes."

OK, this was a complete falsehood. It was by then 6:57. Apparently the problem was that she had two players on the way and didn't know which one would make it. I get it. Had she guessed the wrong one and the player was more than 10 minutes late, she would forfeit that court.

So I stood there, with two choices: (1) Have a big hissy fit and argument about *what time it was* and demand the loss of toss and a game on all courts; or (2) Do nothing.

I chose to do nothing. I am pushing 50. I try to live a quiet life. I do this for fun. I am not in the mood to raise my blood pressure because someone in an official capacity with the league has chosen to *cheat* and to *lie.* Besides, the chances that the hissy fit would achieve anything were zilch. I demand a penalty, she refuses to give it. Then what? You can't play a match when one team says the score is 0-0 and the other says it is 1-0. The remedy would have been to document things as best as I could and refuse to play unless the penalty was given, pushing the issue to a grievance.

I turned around and left and stood with my cell phone in the lobby. She came out of the bathroom about a minute later and exchanged. We played the matches, and we were badly defeated on four courts (winning the one court where the lady came late).

Still. I am of half a mind to write to her today and give her a First Rate Scolding, just to let her know that I know precisely what she was doing and such behavior is inappropriate for someone in her position. Then again, I see little upside for myself personally in making trouble. The last thing I need is an enemy with the power to make life difficult.

The frustrating thing is that she didn't need to go hide in the bathroom to achieve her objective of avoiding penalties that were entirely appropriate. All she had to do was say, "Hey, Cindy. I've got a problem. I don't know which of two people is going to show up for No. 2 singles. Can we work something out?" Being a Grey instead of a Black And White, I would have waived the penalty or let her substitute whichever player showed up first or whatever, as we came there to play tennis not collect defaults.

She wasn't decent enough to play it straight. That is indeed quite sad.

Cindy -- unsure how she is going to get the bad taste out of her mouth

She was right, she had two more minutes..... (actually 3 by your count)

Despite the silly rule that you have to exchange by 5 minutes too, by your own description of the rules there is no penalty unless you havent done it by match time.

(they have more time if you consider that hardly any captain is going to institute a 5 court default if someone is a few minutes late since you drove all the way there to play tennis and your players want to play.....)

They are probably a lot smarter then you are thus they realize this.

And dont give me this "I am a gray" crap.

You're running into the bathroom demanding a lineup change because of some rule that says it should be done 5 minutes before. (and that they weren't in the "lobby")

The whole point of saying someone should be in the lobby is that so you know where the other team is (in case a facility is too large and you "miss" each other). You knew they were in the bathroom so who cares? Apparently you are not gray if you cant figure that one out....

OH NO!!!! THEY DEVIATED 5 YARDS FROM THE "LOBBY"!!!! Terrible...

And you're getting all worked up about it because they didnt do it at 5 minutes too, and they are hiding from you.

Just because you managed to chicken out and not enforce the rule when the time came, doesnt make a "gray" (if you wish to continue using such labels).

Especially since you got paranoid and worked up enough by it to post a message to this forum, and talked about calling them and giving them a piece of your mind. (which is very lame at this point, the match is over)

slick
05-22-2009, 10:51 AM
This is what I find so fascinating about Cindy. She has absolutely no clue that SHE is the one who is out of line.

drakulie
05-22-2009, 10:53 AM
http://tinypic.com/7xt927a.gif

Jack the Hack
05-22-2009, 11:10 AM
This is what I find so fascinating about Cindy. She has absolutely no clue that SHE is the one who is out of line.

Hmm... I didn't think Cindy was out of line. If the league implements timed matches and the rules say you are supposed to exchange line-ups in the lobby 5 minutes before match time so that things start as scheduled, then it's not Cindy who was the bad guy/gal here. By hiding away and not following the rule, it's the other captain that was being sneaky... and the point was that she is also a league organizer and knows the rules, so she should be setting a better example. Cindy even said that if this person had been up front and honest, there wouldn't have been a problem. The fact that Cindy's team lost 1-4 means that this was a non-issue as far a score. However, I can understand why Cindy is miffed on the principle. (It's just so much better when everyone is honest and communicates clearly, and that's what it seems Cindy was hoping for here.)

On a related note, what other source of dramatic daytime entertainment would we have if Cindy wasn't here starting all these threads? To me, the endless Nadal/Federer for GOAT debates are boring, and this local league stuff is much more exciting to talk about! :)

PushyPushster
05-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Cindy -

Don't sweat it. I think you're feeling overly protective of your team and thinking you should have made the other captain forfeit at least one game on all the courts. It wouldn't have been the right thing to do, in my opinion. Anyone on a tennis team should be there to play tennis. Forcing the penalty over a 2 minute delay would have been a cheap way to earn points and I'm pretty sure this is what led to your natural reluctance.

Despite the silly rule that you have to exchange by 5 minutes too, by your own description of the rules there is no penalty unless you havent done it by match time.

Cindy said the following:

Rules say line-ups are exchanged no later than 5 minutes before match time. Mandatory penalty for a late exchange is loss of toss and one game on all courts. Failure to exchange by match time is a 5-court default.

That sounds to me like there's an immediate penalty after the 5 minute mark.

Jack the Hack
05-22-2009, 11:19 AM
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Seems to me you were hoping their players would not show up so you could win a couple of cheap points. The fact that they whipped your team made this "indignity" even worse. Tennis shouldn't be such a stress-filled event, we're supposed to be having fun. Many times, for whatever reason, I've given a player an extra five minutes to show up. Sometimes they got caught in traffic, whatever, it wasn't malicious. Lighten up for heavens sake.

I think you missed a key part of Cindy's story...



The frustrating thing is that she didn't need to go hide in the bathroom to achieve her objective of avoiding penalties that were entirely appropriate. All she had to do was say, "Hey, Cindy. I've got a problem. I don't know which of two people is going to show up for No. 2 singles. Can we work something out?" Being a Grey instead of a Black And White, I would have waived the penalty or let her substitute whichever player showed up first or whatever, as we came there to play tennis not collect defaults.

She wasn't decent enough to play it straight. That is indeed quite sad.


The point was that this captain is also a league organizer and plays a part in making the rules. However, she didn't want to be penalized and was being sneaky instead of just talking to Cindy like a mature adult should.

goober
05-22-2009, 11:19 AM
For some reason I find grown adults hiding in the bathroom is pretty pathetic and funny at the same time.:) It seems that team tennis can make some otherwise normal people regress to high school level behavior.

slick
05-22-2009, 11:23 AM
If some anal retentive tool tried to take a penalty over being 2 minutes late I'd give it to them.......and then take great satisfaction in kicking their on the court.

woodrow1029
05-22-2009, 11:25 AM
It's debates like this that give me no desire whatsoever to play USTA league tennis..

Jack the Hack
05-22-2009, 11:26 AM
If some anal retentive tool tried to take a penalty over being 2 minutes late I'd give it to them.......and then take great satisfaction in kicking their on the court.

If you are so much of a bad ***, I bet you wouldn't be hiding in the bathroom with your team either.

slick
05-22-2009, 11:26 AM
And I'm sure I would kick their *** because any team that tries to pull a win on a technicality is bound to suck.

slick
05-22-2009, 11:28 AM
It's debates like this that give me no desire whatsoever to play USTA league tennis..

USTA leagues are great. Just don't play 3.5 womens. Bunch of bickering yentas.

lovin'it
05-22-2009, 11:40 AM
http://tinypic.com/7xt927a.gif

gotta say, not taking sides, but i couldn't stop laughing at this one...too funny!

Spokewench
05-22-2009, 11:59 AM
USTA leagues are great. Just don't play 3.5 womens. Bunch of bickering yentas.


Slick: I'm supposed to trust someone who takes the name "slick" as his/her user name as far as their ethics? I am not going to tell you how to respond to cindy's post, but I am going to ask you not to make prejudicial and insulting posts like the one above on the subject of 3.5 women. The posters on this site make way to many detrimental comments about women based on gender alone. I have to say I'm totally sick of it!

Cindysphinx
05-22-2009, 11:59 AM
She was right, she had two more minutes..... (actually 3 by your count)

Despite the silly rule that you have to exchange by 5 minutes too, by your own description of the rules there is no penalty unless you havent done it by match time.

No, Javier. She was late. Read the opening post more carefully.

The exchange must happen 5 minutes before match time. Penalty is a loss of toss and one game on all five courts.

If the exchange does not happen by match time, the penalty is then forfeit of all five courts.

alice301
05-22-2009, 12:05 PM
USTA leagues are great. Just don't play 3.5 womens. Bunch of bickering yentas.

excuse me, are you a 3.5 woman? yes? as one yourself, i'm sure you feel right at home. no? eff off; you're not invited anyway.

drakulie
05-22-2009, 12:08 PM
No, Javier. She was late. Read the opening post more carefully.

The exchange must happen 5 minutes before match time. Penalty is a loss of toss and one game on all five courts.

If the exchange does not happen by match time, the penalty is then forfeit of all five courts.

Hmmmmm. Interesting. You posted this just yesterday:

Well, I wouldn't characterize my position as "follow the letter of the rule." I'm a grey, not a black and white. You may have me confused with Drakulie there.


So, why the need to make a big deal out of a few minutes, if you are "grey", and don't "follow the letter of the rule"??


Like I've said many times before>>>>> you only like to "enforce rules" and whine about those who don't follow the rules when it is an inconvenience for you.

raiden031
05-22-2009, 12:10 PM
I read your posts because your psychologic state interests me. You seem to have a need for affirmation in everything you do. In a lifetime of tennis I have not had nearly the number of issues you have had on a tennis court in a single week.


I think maybe you take Cindy too seriously. I think this forum is much more exciting when Cindy is posting because at least she posts interesting things to discuss. Instead maybe you'd prefer the same old 'sandbagger' and 'I can't beat a pusher' threads?

For the most part, the forum is an outlet for people to share their inner most feelings about things that happen in their lives where they can't do much about. If Cindy confronted every person that ever annoyed her, she would have no friends or family in her life I'm sure. Same goes with all of us. I don't think people's voices on the board should be suppressed because people like yourself are going to think they are mentally unstable or have serious issues.

I've gotten crap for some of the things I've posted here, but in real life most people think I'm a nice guy. I might get annoyed with many people throughout the course of my life, but I'm diplomatic about it when dealing with the parties involved, but still might want to vent on the board. Something wrong with that?


Let me try to help. You like to play tennis, right? You are in a USTA league to play tennis, correct? If this is this case why would you want to win a match by default, or win a tainted match where you got some free games because someone is 2 minutes late? Why would this even bother you? I would be relieved that they showed up so I WOULDN'T default because I like to play. A win isn't a win to me if I got freebies, no pleasure for me in that.

There are a lot of weanies here who believe ever minute detail of the rules should be followed to the letter. Pursue this at you own peril. You will enjoy the game less and people will not enjoy playing with you.

To play this game you must play other human beings. They won't always be on time. They will miss line calls. They may serve underhand. They may talk to much...etc...etc.

Ask yourself. Do you want to play?

I agree with this for the most part. I let stupid stuff like this slide. But when a person is abusing the rules, they need to be enforced out of principle. If someone is hiding to avoid a penalty, then they deserve the penalty. If they would've talked to Cindy and asked for some slack, then it would be appropriate for Cindy to give them the slack.

slick
05-22-2009, 12:50 PM
Guess I touched a nerve. That last comment was mainly in jest with a shred of truth.

From my experience there seems to be way more drama in womens 3.5 league than what I've experienced or heard of in the mens league and others agreed.

My wife is a 3.5 captain and there is ALWAYS drama. She hates it. Most of the ladies are nice but a few bad apples........

Cindysphinx
05-22-2009, 12:56 PM
excuse me, are you a 3.5 woman? yes? as one yourself, i'm sure you feel right at home. no? eff off; you're not invited anyway.

Hey, Alice. You too, Spoke and CAK. Check this out.

You guys want to know The Sequel? Yeah, there was a sequel, and it was about as ugly as the main attraction. Here's what happened after the little game of hide and seek we had with the line-ups.

We all took the courts a bit late because of the delay with the line-ups. The three doubles were visible on one side of the lobby/viewing area, and the two singles were visible on the other side of the lobby. The doubles teams finished first, and our team was swept. The doubles players all went to the lobby to socialize and watch the conclusion of the two singles matches. Singles Two was being played farther from the viewing area than Singles One.

One of my teammates had suffered a death in the family and I hadn't seen her in a while. We didn't watch the singles; we talked. I didn't watch the singles.

Finally the buzzer sounds, signifying the end of the two-hour timed matches on the singles courts. Singles One players come off; we lost.

Singles Two player comes off, sweating something awful due to the hot indoor conditions and beet red in the face. She had a tight match: 7-5, 6-6 (4-1 in tiebreak). Because at least six points hadn't been played in the set tiebreak, it doesn't count. Because the second set ended in a tie, it doesn't count. My player won based on winning the first set. She was very happy to have held on for a win, as she lost her last singles match. I was happy for her, as she is one of the most delightful people you will ever meet and is scrupulously fair and honest.

While my player is giving me the scores, the opposing singles player is talking to her captain, of course. The captain then comes over to my player. Now, remember that they have already won the team match 4-1.

She proceeds to tell my player within earshot of others that my player called the lines unfairly and hooked her player, especially on serves. Yup. I heard the tail end of this confrontation, with my player saying she hadn't even called more than a few serves out the entire match. They argued a bit more, my player gathered her stuff and stormed out, visibly angry.

Now. I think that was just awful behavior from this captain, on many levels. If their player thought there was a problem with line calls, she should have said something during the match. If that didn't work, she should have called upon one of the many players in the lobby to act as observers.

What shouldn't happen is that a captain is dressing down a player from an opposing team, calling her out on line calls the captain didn't even see, not even having the decency to have such a discussion in private. As I see it, she totally spoiled my player's ability to savor her win, for no good reason.

If there had been a legitimate concern, this captain should have mentioned it to me, and I could then decide whether to discuss it with my player. So score it three doubles losses, one singles loss, and one ruined victory.

Like I said, bad taste in my mouth.

maverick66
05-22-2009, 01:04 PM
I wouldnt get mad at that. Most people who have played competitive tennis have dealt with people who only lose because they were cheated. Its how they deal with the loss. Your player easily could have laughed in her face and walked away with a big grin. Instead she took it personal and let it ruin her day. I have had guys in tournaments say and do much worse than that. Its sadly part of playing competitive sports.

Steady Eddy
05-22-2009, 01:54 PM
If there had been a legitimate concern, this captain should have mentioned it to me, and I could then decide whether to discuss it with my player. So score it three doubles losses, one singles loss, and one ruined victory.

Like I said, bad taste in my mouth.
So if you're sure in your own mind that your team played square, then give these people the power to ruin it? The singles player didn't demand a an official while the match was going on. After she lost, probably her captain said, "Why'd you lose?", then, to save face, she probably said something about bad line calls and that led to the other stuff. It's too little, too late. Yes, she should have been a good loser. Sounds like they were overly competititve. But as long as they didn't steal credit cards or rough up one of you in the parking lot, this ought to be something you just shake off. Most people are more pleasant than this, but people can also be alot worse than this. Keep it in perspective.

Topaz
05-22-2009, 02:00 PM
Wow, if an opposing captain comes up to me after a match and says that, I'm liable to smack her in the face. Which brings up a whole 'nother can of worms!!!

How rude!

skiracer55
05-22-2009, 05:14 PM
...I don't have any ideas except "don't go there." I am, frankly, appalled at the kind of crap that apparently goes on in NTRP leagues. This stuff, IMHO, is reality TV, and has about as much to do with real tennis as Reality TV has to do with reality. I have no idea how you folks put up with it, and I wouldn't. I'm here to play tennis, win or lose, but tennis according to the rules of fair play as described in the following:

Let me tell a story......

I'm 61, have been playing tennis, coaching it, and so forth, since I was about 10...which my guess is, most of you have not. Doesn't make any of us Bad People, just make us different. Back in the 60s, when I was growing up on a tennis court, everybody's hero was Rod Laver. He was a little dinky guy with a Popeye forearm and an incredible heart who had just won the 1962 Grand Slam. Understand that he won it again in 1969, and nobody since has won it.

The players back then, Laver included, were a different breed. In his first autobiography, Laver said that the year after his first Grand Slam was magical! He had won the munificent sum of $100,000 and was trotting around the world as the Grand Slam champion of a game. Know who else was an Aussie player at the time? A guy named "Nails" Carmicheal. Know why they called him "Nails"? Because even though he was the #4, or something like that, player in Oz, that wasn't worth enough money for him to be able to travel the circuit, so...he was pounding nails, on a construction site, until he could get enough bucks together to go out and, you know, play tennis again. Some of his Aussie mates gave him some encouragement and some money, and he got back out there, and had a grand tennis career.

All of the old Aussies...and the corresponding Americans and other players on the tour of that era, had the same qualities, in this order:

- Honesty, and fair play, to a fault. They were gentlemen, in the full sense of the word.

- Matesmanship. Mantesmanship is an Aussie term, which I learned from my former coach, Dave Hodge. An Aussie, Dave was a prodigous talent, could have been an ATP star in singles, IMHO, but always felt like team play and doubles was the ultimate tennis competitive cauldron...and that the solidarity one has with one's mates...your buddies on court, and in life...is what really counts, when it all comes down to it.

- Doing your best as an athlete, always, with no excuses. I could write a novel on this one, but it pretty much stands on its own, for now.

- Playing tennis the way that the grand game of tennis deserves...with elegance, with grace, with dignity.

There is no room in that ethic for any discussion of, or issues with, cheating, hooking, or whatever you want to call it. And that's basically the arena in which, in the remaining days of my life long career in tennis, I intend to spend on a tennis court.

Two summers ago, I played a second round Men's Age Group match (I forget which one it was, but I think it was Men's 50) in the Denver City Open, one of the big tournaments in the Colorado summer circuit. My opponent was Gary Maccholz. I was probably a 5.0 at the time, he was definitely at least a 5.5. We both played our hearts out, and he won, something like 6-2, 6-2. There was a curious moment in the second set where when I was 2-5 down, 15-40 down, I called his first serve, a winner, good. He said "No, Richard...that was out by two feet...second serve." And proceeded to drill me off the court on the next point to win the match.

I was crestfallen. I had played a great match, and had gotten schooled. I was ready to take up bowling until two things happened:

- My then coach, Sam Winterbotham, then Head Coach of the CU Mens' Tennis Team, came up to me and said "Well done...you did everything you could, everything I've taught you, he just won the last point."

- Gary came up to me and said "You have a great game...want to hit some balls next week?"

You could have knocked me over with a feather. Of course, I took Gary up on his invitation, and we have been buddies and hitting partners ever since. He's passed on to me all kinds of useful info from his time as one of Peter Burwash's instructors, and has gotten me a ton of Adidas stuff for no money, because he's one of the national reps.

So I lost a match, which wasn't great...but you know what? It was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had on a tennis court, and there wasn't any discussion of line calls or anything else having to do with the NTRP Lawyer's Rule Guide.

I've since continued to play Men's Age Group tournaments, and it's been a uniquely rewarding experience. All the guys I play grew up on a tennis court in about the same era I did, and they all play hard, play fair, and play a great, elegant game of tennis. And that's what I'm looking for...how about you?

maverick66
05-22-2009, 05:33 PM
Skiracer do you write for a living. Every post i see of yours is a small novel.

Kostas
05-22-2009, 07:15 PM
Nice story Ski and I don't want to detract from it, but it's not a huge display of sportsmanship by giving an opponent the benefit of a call when you're giving him a thumping.

The real test is when HE is down a set and two breaks and two match points and he doesn't take that point.

Glad you guys remained friends tho.

iamgoat
05-22-2009, 09:37 PM
My suggestion. Reduce the number of threads you make.

I guarantee that your tennis disturbances will greatly decrease.

Xisbum
05-23-2009, 01:52 AM
Wow, if an opposing captain comes up to me after a match and says that, I'm liable to smack her in the face. Which brings up a whole 'nother can of worms!!!

How rude!
My reaction would depend on the circumstances, although I would defend my player/s in all situations. If the opposing captain's team had just lost the match 1-4, I would tend to consider the outburst as frustration boiling over and let it slide (after defending my player's honor). If the opposing captain's team had just won the match 4-1, I would still defend my player's honor and then vigorously discuss the true meaning of sportsmanship with the other captain.

I would never hit another player, but I would try to make enough logical points so that they might want to hit me. :) And I would have my biggest, strongest, baddest best friend standing right next to me.

SteveI
05-23-2009, 02:00 AM
...I don't have any ideas except "don't go there." I am, frankly, appalled at the kind of crap that apparently goes on in NTRP leagues. This stuff, IMHO, is reality TV, and has about as much to do with real tennis as Reality TV has to do with reality. I have no idea how you folks put up with it, and I wouldn't. I'm here to play tennis, win or lose, but tennis according to the rules of fair play as described in the following:

Let me tell a story......

I'm 61, have been playing tennis, coaching it, and so forth, since I was about 10...which my guess is, most of you have not. Doesn't make any of us Bad People, just make us different. Back in the 60s, when I was growing up on a tennis court, everybody's hero was Rod Laver. He was a little dinky guy with a Popeye forearm and an incredible heart who had just won the 1962 Grand Slam. Understand that he won it again in 1969, and nobody since has won it.

The players back then, Laver included, were a different breed. In his first autobiography, Laver said that the year after his first Grand Slam was magical! He had won the munificent sum of $100,000 and was trotting around the world as the Grand Slam champion of a game. Know who else was an Aussie player at the time? A guy named "Nails" Carmicheal. Know why they called him "Nails"? Because even though he was the #4, or something like that, player in Oz, that wasn't worth enough money for him to be able to travel the circuit, so...he was pounding nails, on a construction site, until he could get enough bucks together to go out and, you know, play tennis again. Some of his Aussie mates gave him some encouragement and some money, and he got back out there, and had a grand tennis career.

All of the old Aussies...and the corresponding Americans and other players on the tour of that era, had the same qualities, in this order:

- Honesty, and fair play, to a fault. They were gentlemen, in the full sense of the word.

- Matesmanship. Mantesmanship is an Aussie term, which I learned from my former coach, Dave Hodge. An Aussie, Dave was a prodigous talent, could have been an ATP star in singles, IMHO, but always felt like team play and doubles was the ultimate tennis competitive cauldron...and that the solidarity one has with one's mates...your buddies on court, and in life...is what really counts, when it all comes down to it.

- Doing your best as an athlete, always, with no excuses. I could write a novel on this one, but it pretty much stands on its own, for now.

- Playing tennis the way that the grand game of tennis deserves...with elegance, with grace, with dignity.

There is no room in that ethic for any discussion of, or issues with, cheating, hooking, or whatever you want to call it. And that's basically the arena in which, in the remaining days of my life long career in tennis, I intend to spend on a tennis court.

Two summers ago, I played a second round Men's Age Group match (I forget which one it was, but I think it was Men's 50) in the Denver City Open, one of the big tournaments in the Colorado summer circuit. My opponent was Gary Maccholz. I was probably a 5.0 at the time, he was definitely at least a 5.5. We both played our hearts out, and he won, something like 6-2, 6-2. There was a curious moment in the second set where when I was 2-5 down, 15-40 down, I called his first serve, a winner, good. He said "No, Richard...that was out by two feet...second serve." And proceeded to drill me off the court on the next point to win the match.

I was crestfallen. I had played a great match, and had gotten schooled. I was ready to take up bowling until two things happened:

- My then coach, Sam Winterbotham, then Head Coach of the CU Mens' Tennis Team, came up to me and said "Well done...you did everything you could, everything I've taught you, he just won the last point."

- Gary came up to me and said "You have a great game...want to hit some balls next week?"

You could have knocked me over with a feather. Of course, I took Gary up on his invitation, and we have been buddies and hitting partners ever since. He's passed on to me all kinds of useful info from his time as one of Peter Burwash's instructors, and has gotten me a ton of Adidas stuff for no money, because he's one of the national reps.

So I lost a match, which wasn't great...but you know what? It was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had on a tennis court, and there wasn't any discussion of line calls or anything else having to do with the NTRP Lawyer's Rule Guide.

I've since continued to play Men's Age Group tournaments, and it's been a uniquely rewarding experience. All the guys I play grew up on a tennis court in about the same era I did, and they all play hard, play fair, and play a great, elegant game of tennis. And that's what I'm looking for...how about you?

Thanks for the great post. That is a what tennis is all about...two players leaving it all out on the court, no excuses.. no drama. Good hard play.. you played the best you could and did not take a bathroom break at 2-6, 2-5.

Regards,

slick
05-23-2009, 02:34 AM
So I lost a match, which wasn't great...but you know what? It was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had on a tennis court, and there wasn't any discussion of line calls or anything else having to do with the NTRP Lawyer's Rule Guide.

I


Bravo! Well said sir.

Topaz
05-23-2009, 02:57 AM
I would never hit another player, but I would try to make enough logical points so that they might want to hit me. :) And I would have my biggest, strongest, baddest best friend standing right next to me.

Well, I never really would either (especially with all the lawyers in this area), but I'd really, really *want* to!

J011yroger
05-23-2009, 03:21 AM
i guess it is comforting to see panties in a wad in places other than my area!??! i tell you, the drama is NOT what i play for, where, other than a man's team, can i find it? as a sex change seems a bit radical! :)

should this forum be renamed??

No need for a sex change, guys wouldn't mind a girl on their team.

If you don't believe me, just walk into the men's locker room. I am sure you will get a hero's welcome. Much the opposite of what happens when a guy goes into the ladies locker room!

J

J011yroger
05-23-2009, 03:25 AM
For some reason I find grown adults hiding in the bathroom is pretty pathetic and funny at the same time.:) It seems that team tennis can make some otherwise normal people regress to high school level behavior.

What would be even funnier would be if Cindy went into the bathroom, only to find that they were all hiding out smoking pot in there!

J

nickynu
05-23-2009, 04:11 AM
Captain is crazy competitive. Nice on the outside, will cut-your-throat-and-eat-your-tonsils to win a match on the inside.

"I barge in"



Hi Cindy, I want to be tactful here as I think my comments in the previous thread "Lordy are we this bad" may have caused some offence due to my lack of knowledge of team captaincy differences in the USA

Firstly I love your posts as I you raise some personal emotions that we have all felt at one time or another playing league tennis.

In this particular instance however I feel that maybe you were ready for a confrontation before it started (let me know is that true?) from your description of the opposing captain, which may have lead to certain tensions.

Whilst you accuse her of being very cut throat, it seems from what you have written that you are the cut throat one, as you were trying to enforce penalties, and reminding her of rules etc (for me 2 minutes/5 minutes-so what? I just wanna play)

The fact your own description of your entrance to the locker room was: "I Barge in" this sounds more than a little confrontational which could be why the other captain became very defensive, and catty back with you.

Let me know if I have this wrong, but I always thisnk that there are 2 sides to the story, hers will paint you guys as the villains, no doubt.

PS - dont change-ever!!

Cindysphinx
05-23-2009, 07:27 AM
Let me know if I have this wrong, but I always thisnk that there are 2 sides to the story, hers will paint you guys as the villains, no doubt.

PS - dont change-ever!!

Yeah, I do think you have it wrong. Had I been the confrontational one, I would have insisted on the penalty and had a hissy fit when she dressed down my player and when she tried to pull a fast one by hiding.

Are there two sides to every story? Sure, I'm sure she has a side. It probably goes something like this: "We want to go to Nationals, and my player was late and I was in a jam. I didn't want to take a chance that I'd get a line-up penalty, so I made myself conveniently 'unavailable.' I couldn't take a chance that Cindy might actually insist on following the rules. A gal's gotta do what a gal's gotta do."

As far as her being cut throat . . . you'll simply have to take my word on it. She is legendary.

nickynu
05-23-2009, 12:21 PM
No Cindy Im not saying she is right- just that she will believe she is, people usually find a way to justify their own poor behaviour. Probably she does this too. Same with the cut-throat thing, you obviously have her number, she will know this and therefore it antagonises her, leading her to seek to justify herself, ..... and on and on!!

Datacipher
05-23-2009, 12:34 PM
What a stupid thread. Whooo....a few minutes late exchanging because a player was delayed.....for league tennis....

And no, obviously she was hiding in the bathroom because YOU are the type that gets all worked up about being a few minutes late. You claim NOW that you would have been understanding, but the fact that you chased them in there, thought about a hissy fit, and now wish to make a formal issue out of is, and posted a big rant here, speaks volumes to your real mindset.

Unbelievably childish. FIFTY YEARS OLD.....yikes.

This kind of a story belongs in high school. All one can really do is feel sorry for people who don't recognize this.

sureshs
05-24-2009, 08:43 AM
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z85/yenterjanelle/Days_Of_Our_Lives_Logo.jpg

My wife is crazy about this sitcom

sureshs
05-24-2009, 08:44 AM
She was right, she had two more minutes..... (actually 3 by your count)



No, it was past the 5 minutes before match deadline

subaru3169
05-26-2009, 10:23 AM
quick question since i'm unfamiliar with league play.. but isn't there supposed to be some kind of supervision or administration person in tournaments to decide these types of defaults??

MNPlayer
05-26-2009, 10:37 AM
I was 15-20 minutes late for a 3.5 match last week because I was confused about the match location. Had to drive like mad to make it there only that late. I was ready for them to apply whatever rules there are to handle this, but the opposing captain and the guy I was playing did not seem to mind. We just took an abbreviated warmup. I ended up winning the match and no complaints from them after the fact either.

Just wanted to share my typical experience in USTA. :)

Sometimes I worry people will get scared away from USTA competition with all the crazy stories you see on this board.

slick
05-26-2009, 11:15 AM
^^^^^^
Exactly. That's how things are in the leagues I have played in. Everybody wants to play tennis and is cool about it if circumstances occasionally makes someone a little late.

When you get beyond local league play there are USTA officials present who enforce the late player rules.

Cindysphinx
05-26-2009, 12:08 PM
I was 15-20 minutes late for a 3.5 match last week because I was confused about the match location. Had to drive like mad to make it there only that late. I was ready for them to apply whatever rules there are to handle this, but the opposing captain and the guy I was playing did not seem to mind. We just took an abbreviated warmup. I ended up winning the match and no complaints from them after the fact either.

Just wanted to share my typical experience in USTA. :)

Sometimes I worry people will get scared away from USTA competition with all the crazy stories you see on this board.

That sounds nice, it really does.

I don't know if you play in a league with timed matches, but in those leagues lateness is simply not tolerated. The D.C. and Northern Virginia leagues have timed 90-minute matches, and our Maryland league has 2-hour timed matches. Matches often time out (this happened on two of three doubles courts for my DC team this week). The player who is late is depriving the opponent(s) from the chance to contest the match fully, and the local rules say that taking time penalties and defaults is mandatory.

Further complicating matters is that the rules require the lowest court to be defaulted. Matches can't start until everyone knows that there won't be a default on the higher courts. Lateness also delays the captain(s) in their match. There can be a significant ripple effect of tardiness. Also keep in mind that the instant the horn sounds signifying that your two hours are over, there will be another team waiting to begin their timed match, and they won't let you play even one extra point before they walk on and start their match.

Folks will cut you a break if you are pulling into the parking lot, but anything more than that and they will take your default without missing a beat. The rules apply to everyone, and most people get there early or are prepared to suffer the consequences.

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 12:12 PM
Skiracer do you write for a living. Every post i see of yours is a small novel.


...my day job is (ahem) software technical writing, but I've also written for Powder, Ski Racing, and other magazines. I've also self-published two monographs of my photography and the following:

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles/RMalm-2001-10-DayJob.pdf

Enjoy!

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Nice story Ski and I don't want to detract from it, but it's not a huge display of sportsmanship by giving an opponent the benefit of a call when you're giving him a thumping.

The real test is when HE is down a set and two breaks and two match points and he doesn't take that point.

Glad you guys remained friends tho.

...but I take my sportsmanship where I find it...some days, there ain't much of it around, and on this occasion, I thought it was particularly gracious on Gary's part. I got hit in the eye with a bungy cord about 5 years ago, and had to have a 5 hour lensectomy (remove original lens, replace with a plastic implant). I did Lasik in the other eye, they are both 20/25, but the muscles in my bad eye that control dilation and contraction of the pupil are all blown. I will never be able to contract the pupil again, so I'm ultra sensitive to light and have lost some depth perception. So I call against myself a lot, and I'm always appreciative when somebody is willing to overrule a ball I inadvertently called good, whatever the occasion...

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the great post. That is a what tennis is all about...two players leaving it all out on the court, no excuses.. no drama. Good hard play.. you played the best you could and did not take a bathroom break at 2-6, 2-5.

Regards,

...some day, I'm going to collect all my posts...not just here, but from roadbikereview.com and the Barking Bears ski forums, make them into a book, and call it "The World According to Skiracer55", and you get a signed copy...

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 12:22 PM
Bravo! Well said sir.

...you also get a signed copy of "The World According to Skiracer55"...watch this space!

nickynu
05-26-2009, 04:43 PM
Can I choose not to receive a complementary "world according to skiracer" until I have approved a sample chapter. Hpe this helps cut down on postage costs mate :)

slick
05-26-2009, 05:06 PM
...you also get a signed copy of "The World According to Skiracer55"...watch this space!

Being an active masters ski racer myself and father of junior ski racers I am a subscriber of Ski Racing Magazine and am a frequent reader of Powder Mag so I probably read some of your stuff!

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 06:02 PM
Can I choose not to receive a complementary "world according to skiracer" until I have approved a sample chapter. Hpe this helps cut down on postage costs mate :)

...very good. Watch this space, I'll be working on it over the summer...in addition to Ride the Rockies, a 380 mile Death Ride over some of the highest passes in Colorado, which is one reason why I'm not playing much tennis so far this summer...and my day job, which is...writing software technical manuals, from what I remember...but you'll get the first sample chapter...also, I will be working on my first novel, "Whiteout", which is about ski bumming in Colorado in the 70s and 80s, which I did for 11 years...I think. In the meantime, try this:

http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles/RMalm-2001-10-DayJob.pdf

skiracer55
05-26-2009, 06:03 PM
Being an active masters ski racer myself and father of junior ski racers I am a subscriber of Ski Racing Magazine and am a frequent reader of Powder Mag so I probably read some of your stuff!



http://www.rmmskiracing.org/articles/RMalm-2001-10-DayJob.pdf

MNPlayer
05-27-2009, 06:23 AM
That sounds nice, it really does.

I don't know if you play in a league with timed matches, but in those leagues lateness is simply not tolerated. The D.C. and Northern Virginia leagues have timed 90-minute matches, and our Maryland league has 2-hour timed matches. Matches often time out (this happened on two of three doubles courts for my DC team this week). The player who is late is depriving the opponent(s) from the chance to contest the match fully, and the local rules say that taking time penalties and defaults is mandatory.

Further complicating matters is that the rules require the lowest court to be defaulted. Matches can't start until everyone knows that there won't be a default on the higher courts. Lateness also delays the captain(s) in their match. There can be a significant ripple effect of tardiness. Also keep in mind that the instant the horn sounds signifying that your two hours are over, there will be another team waiting to begin their timed match, and they won't let you play even one extra point before they walk on and start their match.

Folks will cut you a break if you are pulling into the parking lot, but anything more than that and they will take your default without missing a beat. The rules apply to everyone, and most people get there early or are prepared to suffer the consequences.

We don't play timed matches in our region although of course there is often some limit on indoor court time. I agree this would make a big difference. If we run out of time and someone is waiting for the court, we are supposed to finish the match at a different date/time. Only once has this happened to me. It is a big pain, but timed matches would be worse, IMO.

Not too long ago, our 4.0 league match was preceded by a 5.0 match. The #1 5.0 singles match went way after we were supposed to start but the guys using that court just waited until they were done. TonLars happened to be one of the players actually. I think this is the convention used for USTA at that location. Nobody wants to get kicked off in the middle of a tough match and I personally have no problem waiting for someone else in order to make that possible.

Sakkijarvi
05-28-2009, 11:43 AM
What I think is really brilliant is when sites have content creators like "Cindy" (who may be a guy named Mike) come along and drive visits to their place. People are so 'smart', yet they jump right in with all of the usual behavior: auto-didactic shrinks, insults, atavistic types, empathic supporters.

Without "Cindy" there really wouldn't be much to read here. My friends in Finland often misuse masculine and feminine, referring to their mother as "he"...so I say, "Cindy, he is very entertaining". To TW management, kudos.

Cindysphinx
05-28-2009, 11:47 AM
What I think is really brilliant is when sites have content creators like "Cindy" (who may be a guy named Mike) come along and drive visits to their place. People are so 'smart', yet they jump right in with all of the usual behavior: auto-didactic shrinks, insults, atavistic types, empathic supporters.

Without "Cindy" there really wouldn't be much to read here. My friends in Finland often misuse masculine and feminine, referring to their mother as "he"...so I say, "Cindy, he is very entertaining". To TW management, kudos.

My real name is Laars, and I could use a raise.

North
05-28-2009, 11:53 AM
My real name is Laars, and I could use a raise.

You keep at it Laars. I'm glad to see you back. Will you take a lifetime supply of Lutefisk in lieu of a raise?

Cindysphinx
05-28-2009, 12:10 PM
Lutefisk?

Erm . . . if it's sweet or salty, count me in!

TonLars
05-28-2009, 09:28 PM
We don't play timed matches in our region although of course there is often some limit on indoor court time. I agree this would make a big difference. If we run out of time and someone is waiting for the court, we are supposed to finish the match at a different date/time. Only once has this happened to me. It is a big pain, but timed matches would be worse, IMO.

Not too long ago, our 4.0 league match was preceded by a 5.0 match. The #1 5.0 singles match went way after we were supposed to start but the guys using that court just waited until they were done. TonLars happened to be one of the players actually. I think this is the convention used for USTA at that location. Nobody wants to get kicked off in the middle of a tough match and I personally have no problem waiting for someone else in order to make that possible.

Thanks for being patient and not kicking me off! I would have been so mad!

PS that was pretty funny about my dad when you came to watch that tournament match, I told him what you said and he got a kick out of it

MNPlayer
05-29-2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks for being patient and not kicking me off! I would have been so mad!

PS that was pretty funny about my dad when you came to watch that tournament match, I told him what you said and he got a kick out of it

Yeah, I immediately saw the resemblance once you said he was your dad. But I was totally clueless until then!