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View Full Version : why do people think federer has a better serve than roddick???


manny pacquiao P4P king
05-24-2009, 11:04 PM
it's mind boggling, that some people think that federer has a better serve than roddick.

So i looked at the stats and roddick gets 70% of his 1st serves in, federer has 60, and we know that in big matches - A0 2008 he served incredibly ****, and double faulted at 5-5 in the TB against roddick in madrid. so roddick has the advantage of where that is concerned.

they're both tied on 2nd serve points won. but roddick is leading out of the two on 1st serve points won, so basically, roddick wins more points on serve in total than federer does.

roddick leads on the aces and service games won, however, i know some of you might say federer doesn't go for aces, he goes for the accurate serve to set a point up - ********. if you hold more service games that everyone else you have the best serve.PERIOD

Roddick's serve was the main reason he won a slam, and got to number 1 in the world, people will say he's one dimensional but oh well. federer's didn't.

i actually consider roddick's serve to be behind only sampras, ivanisevic and karlovic (karlovic was tall though, if roddick was karlovic's height we would probably be watching the best server of all time play). you could say that becker is ahead of him, but i don't know because i dont watch him.

And lastly, don't say that roddick doesn't have accuracy because that is what has improved about his serve this year - and he also has power with that accuracy too.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2009, 11:07 PM
It's probably because Fed always seems to hit the big serve/ace on BP's. What's their BP saved percentage in comparison???

RCizzle65
05-24-2009, 11:12 PM
if you hold more service games that everyone else you have the best serve.PERIOD

Since when did Nadal have one of the better serves on tour?
Argument failed.

flyer
05-24-2009, 11:15 PM
because they are delusional, federer doesnt even think he has a better serve than roddick, just let those people talk and you just know your right and go on your way

Cenc
05-24-2009, 11:19 PM
because he does have
he has much better placement than roddick with solid speed
much more variety as well
so imo feds serve>rods serve

Joseph L. Barrow
05-24-2009, 11:22 PM
It's probably because Fed always seems to hit the big serve/ace on BP's. What's their BP saved percentage in comparison???
I don't know about this season, but most years Roddick has a higher break-points saved total than Federer (in fact, he's frequently #1 on the tour in that department.

Nadal_Freak
05-24-2009, 11:25 PM
There are a lot of Fed fanboys on this site. According to them he has the best serve, best return, best forehand, and can beat anyone when he feels like it. So far off are these delusional posters.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2009, 11:26 PM
It is true that Roddick has a higher 1st serve pct than Federer. (70 to 60). H-e, Federer has saved a higer pct of BPs (67 to 63). They both are great servers, but as I mentioned, the amt of BPs Fed saves is probably why people think of his serve as better.

Nadal_Freak
05-24-2009, 11:27 PM
It is true that Roddick has a higher 1st serve pct than Federer. (70 to 60). H-e, Federer has saved a higer pct of BPs (67 to 63). They both are great servers, but as I mentioned, the amt of BPs Fed saves is probably why people think of his serve as better.
I remember Djokovic winning 5 games in a row twice against Federer and Nadal breaking Fed at will last year in RG. He is not that great of a server. Better than Nadal of course but far from the best.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2009, 11:29 PM
So Fed sucks at serving. OK, just ignore facts and put out opinion as fact. BRILLIANT!!!

maximo
05-24-2009, 11:29 PM
Murray's serve is the best.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2009, 11:32 PM
Roddick's serve was the main reason he won a slam, and got to number 1 in the world, people will say he's one dimensional but oh well. federer's didn't.


I'm sure Fed will be quite alright for having 13 slams and an all court game, rather than just a big serve and 1 slam.

Cesc Fabregas
05-24-2009, 11:35 PM
Murray's serve is the best.

No it isn't he usually cant serve at a high percentage when he goes for big serves and his second serve is weak at best he has nowhere near the best serve in the game.

Joseph L. Barrow
05-24-2009, 11:39 PM
Roddick's serve is clearly, undeniably better than Federer's according to more or less any objective standard. In an average Roddick match, he hits more aces, fewer double faults, has a higher first serve percentage, and holds serve more often than Federer does in one of his own.

In particular, the service games held statistic is clearly telling. I think we can all agree that Federer is clearly superior to Roddick in virtually every conceivable aspect of tennis aside from the serve. He has the better forehand, backhand, volleys, court coverage, tactics, the works. The fact that Roddick (who plays on the same tour against primarily the same group of opponents) has consistently won a significantly higher percentage of his service games than Federer has for the last several years, however, indicates that Roddick must be better than Federer at something. Given the fact, as previously stated, that Federer is/was (it could be fairly pointed out that in this period since Federer's decline, Roddick is also steadier and less error-prone than Federer) superior in every other important aspect of the game, the only remaining major factor which could create this gap in Roddick's favor is the serve. If Federer had the superior forehand, backhand, volleys, court coverage, tactical intelligence, etc., and even had a better serve than Roddick to boot, there is no rational way that, both men playing on the same tour against more or less the same set of opponents, Federer would not win a higher percentage of his service games than Roddick.

maximo
05-24-2009, 11:45 PM
No it isn't he usually cant serve at a high percentage when he goes for big serves and his second serve is weak at best he has nowhere near the best serve in the game.

http://i44.tinypic.com/35kmkjs.jpg

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-24-2009, 11:53 PM
Since when did Nadal have one of the better serves on tour?
Argument failed.


seeing as there aren't many great servers anymore, its possible - and nadal's spin serve is good - and he gets alot in aswell, its probably the most improved shot of the last year or so

downdaline
05-24-2009, 11:59 PM
I dont think Federer has a better serve, but i think he uses it better than Roddick, and has better service game altogether.

Also, the placement is better, whereas Roddicks is faster. IMO, placement > speed.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 12:14 AM
I dont think Federer has a better serve, but i think he uses it better than Roddick, and has better service game altogether.

Also, the placement is better, whereas Roddicks is faster. IMO, placement > speed.



roddick hold 90% of service games.............FACT - better service game

regarding speed and accuracy - you need both. FACT

jamesblakefan#1
05-25-2009, 01:05 AM
90% to 88% isn't that big of a difference. And Federer's probably played more service games, seeing how he's gotten deeper into more tourneys.

theduh
05-25-2009, 01:11 AM
Answer is simple. Fed's service is well placed and most of the time unreadable as supposed to Roddick's service which I admit is fast but not well placed and can be easily read.

helloworld
05-25-2009, 01:41 AM
it's mind boggling, that some people think that federer has a better serve than roddick.

So i looked at the stats and roddick gets 70% of his 1st serves in, federer has 60, and we know that in big matches - A0 2008 he served incredibly ****, and double faulted at 5-5 in the TB against roddick in madrid. so roddick has the advantage of where that is concerned.

they're both tied on 2nd serve points won. but roddick is leading out of the two on 1st serve points won, so basically, roddick wins more points on serve in total than federer does.

roddick leads on the aces and service games won, however, i know some of you might say federer doesn't go for aces, he goes for the accurate serve to set a point up - ********. if you hold more service games that everyone else you have the best serve.PERIOD

Roddick's serve was the main reason he won a slam, and got to number 1 in the world, people will say he's one dimensional but oh well. federer's didn't.

i actually consider roddick's serve to be behind only sampras, ivanisevic and karlovic (karlovic was tall though, if roddick was karlovic's height we would probably be watching the best server of all time play). you could say that becker is ahead of him, but i don't know because i dont watch him.

And lastly, don't say that roddick doesn't have accuracy because that is what has improved about his serve this year - and he also has power with that accuracy too.

Here's a small list of people who has superior serve than Roddick;
-Sampras
-Ivanisevic
-Krajicek
-Becker
-Stich
-Karlovic
-Arthurs

fps
05-25-2009, 01:47 AM
roddick leads on the aces and service games won, however, i know some of you might say federer doesn't go for aces, he goes for the accurate serve to set a point up - ********. if you hold more service games that everyone else you have the best serve.PERIOD

.

federer's serve does have to hold up against the very best more often. you say he served badly in one match, against nadal in AO2009, and somehow try and make that apply to his entire career, which is false logic. but you have to ask how often roddick would have held against nadal. he doesn't play the big boys as often as federer. you can hold all your service games against opposition just below the top level, doesn't mean your serve's the best, just means it's the best against those guys who aren't the best. look at how federer handles roddick's serve. nadal i'm sure can play it in a similar fashion.

best serve on tour? karlovic. that serve is his entire career.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 02:01 AM
Here's a small list of people who has superior serve than Roddick;
-Sampras
-Ivanisevic
-Krajicek
-Becker
-Stich
-Karlovic
-Arthurs


read the ****ing post.....i never said roddick had the best serve ever did i

sh@de
05-25-2009, 02:02 AM
Federer's serve has declined quite a lot in the past two years I think.

However, he used to be very clutch from 04-07 with his serve. That's the reason his serve was considered to be so good. If I remember correctly, I think he didn't miss a single first serve in one of the tiebreaks, or both, during the 07 USO final. That has got to be frustrating for the returner. Another example is TMC 07 vs Nadal. There was that incredible game where Fed was down 0-30 and then just served 4 aces straight and won the game.

Another thing about Fed's serve which many people consider so good is the disguise. He can hit any spin and place it anywhere with the same motion. Disguise is very important at top level tennis. One thing Tipsarevic mentioned after the 5 setter against Fed in AO 08 was the he simply couldn't read Fed's serve.

These are all reasons Fed's serve is considered one of the best.

That said, now that Fed doesn't really seem to be able to clutch serve so much, so maybe he's not 'one of the best' anymore, I wouldn't know. One thing I do know is that Fed still has one heck of an annoying second serve. The placement, spin and disguise on that serve is excellent. I suppose in terms of first serves, he isn't one of the best anymore, but I would rank him right up there when talking about second serves.

Nadal_Freak
05-25-2009, 07:37 AM
90% to 88% isn't that big of a difference. And Federer's probably played more service games, seeing how he's gotten deeper into more tourneys.
Fed's game backs up his serve better. Roddick gets many more unreturned serves to avoid exposing himself as a weak baseliner.

NamRanger
05-25-2009, 07:57 AM
Fed's game backs up his serve better. Roddick gets many more unreturned serves to avoid exposing himself as a weak baseliner.


If roddick had a weak baseline game he'd be a Karlovic. Except Roddick is currently ranked 6. So no; I'd say his baseline game is pretty good; his weakest link is his movement, which Federer, Nadal, and other top players expose.

MasturB
05-25-2009, 08:02 AM
I think Fed had the best double fault rate of any player on tour a few years ago.

IvanAndreevich
05-25-2009, 08:02 AM
Federer's serve has declined quite a lot in the past two years I think.

However, he used to be very clutch from 04-07 with his serve. That's the reason his serve was considered to be so good. If I remember correctly, I think he didn't miss a single first serve in one of the tiebreaks, or both, during the 07 USO final. That has got to be frustrating for the returner. Another example is TMC 07 vs Nadal. There was that incredible game where Fed was down 0-30 and then just served 4 aces straight and won the game.

Another thing about Fed's serve which many people consider so good is the disguise. He can hit any spin and place it anywhere with the same motion. Disguise is very important at top level tennis. One thing Tipsarevic mentioned after the 5 setter against Fed in AO 08 was the he simply couldn't read Fed's serve.

These are all reasons Fed's serve is considered one of the best.

That said, now that Fed doesn't really seem to be able to clutch serve so much, so maybe he's not 'one of the best' anymore, I wouldn't know. One thing I do know is that Fed still has one heck of an annoying second serve. The placement, spin and disguise on that serve is excellent. I suppose in terms of first serves, he isn't one of the best anymore, but I would rank him right up there when talking about second serves.
'08 was Federer best serving season ever. Serve was bailing him out match after match. The rest of his game was making lots of errors.

After that back injury his serve has gone to crap, yes. But looks like it's back now, just in time for Wimby :)

akv89
05-25-2009, 08:03 AM
If Roddick has a much worse ground game, volleys, movement, and mentality than Federer as most people on this board agree, and he still manages to win more service games, he obviously has a better serve.
I would argue that his serve is at least on par with Sampras' in terms of effectiveness. Unfortunately he can't back it up with much.

Nadal_Freak
05-25-2009, 08:05 AM
If Roddick has a much worse ground game, volleys, movement, and mentality than Federer as most people on this board agree, and he still manages to win more service games, he obviously has a better serve.
I would argue that his serve is at least on par with Sampras' in terms of effectiveness. Unfortunately he can't back it up with much.
My point exactly. He is a one-trick pony. Though I do give him credit for that trick that he has.

NamRanger
05-25-2009, 08:19 AM
My point exactly. He is a one-trick pony. Though I do give him credit for that trick that he has.


1 trick pony that is world #6?

akv89
05-25-2009, 08:43 AM
My point exactly. He is a one-trick pony. Though I do give him credit for that trick that he has.

Karlovic would be a better example of a one-trick pony. Roddick has been able to develop his ground game and return game and is probably around top 50 in the world in that department. But he certainly is not comparable in his groundstrokes and especially his movement to others at the very top.

Joseph L. Barrow
05-25-2009, 08:45 AM
If Roddick has a much worse ground game, volleys, movement, and mentality than Federer as most people on this board agree, and he still manages to win more service games, he obviously has a better serve.
I would argue that his serve is at least on par with Sampras' in terms of effectiveness. Unfortunately he can't back it up with much.
Exactly, although the "can't back it up" should be put in context of relativity to guys like Federer and Sampras- Roddick is still a good player even aside from the serve. Even his returning statistics are still in the top 40 on the tour.

RoddickAce
05-25-2009, 08:45 AM
I know I don't. Roddick's serve placement is very underrated. Most people (well, of the people I know) that claim his serve placement suck have not watched many Roddick matches and simply base this on what other people say.

I mean come on, you look at Sampras's serve, which many claim as the best serve ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88VJbv3X6-4 Sampras can hit smack on the line if he wanted to, but does he hit the ball smack on the line every single time? No way! Go to 0:53, 3:57 etc.

Does Roddick hit smack on the line everytime? Not a chance. But can he do that? You bet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU95BItKFug Go to 5:40 for an example.

Just cuz Roddick likes to go for the body serve against Fed, doesn't mean he can't place it.

Also, the funny thing is, like I said many times before in other threads, people claim that Roddick has no ground game. Ok, and then he has no serve placement. Ok, so how does he win so many service games and be ranekd in the top 10 so long.

Some will say that his power wins him those points, not his placement. Ok then I guess we should all teach players to go for power and not placement? Since Roddick, who "only has power" on his serve wins more service points, has more aces, has better serve consistency than Federer, who has a supposedly better serve because of placement.

If some still think Federer has vastly superior placement than Roddick, then my question is: What good is serve placement if power wins more points? How can one serve be better than the other if it helps the server win less points?

Nadal_Freak
05-25-2009, 08:46 AM
Karlovic would be a better example of a one-trick pony. Roddick has been able to develop his ground game and return game and is probably around top 50 in the world in that department. But he certainly is not comparable in his groundstrokes and especially his movement to others at the very top.
They both are. Nothing wrong with that though. You use what you got.

toptalent
05-25-2009, 09:03 AM
Roddick has a better serve when considering the overall stats he delivers on the tour. He has a considerable higher 1st serve percentage (often in the 70's even 80's), considerable higher average speed (Mid 120's, sometimes even 130's) and higher number of service games won. After all, serving is Roddick's single most important weapon by far to hold his place in today's competition, while Federer has been known to struggling with serving when it mattered the most in the recent year.

However the impression that Federer has a better serve really strikes WHENEVER Federer plays Roddick. The facts are:

1, In almost all the Federer vs Roddick head to head, Federer out served Roddick by having more aces, higher percentage service points won and more service games won. Lagging slightly only on the first serve percentage.

2, Federer delivers more aces when playing Roddick than against almost all other top 10 players. He almost never struggles with serving when playing Roddick, compared to his games against other top players such as Nadal.

3, Roddick has considerable lower serving stats (be it 1st serve percentage, average speed or aces) when playing against Federer than against almost all other players.

The conclusion is, Federer is one of the best readers and retuners of the Roddick serve and Roddick on the other hand is one of the worst readers and returners of the Federer serve. This is probably technical, but mental factors can also play a big factor (Roddick has very little confidence against Federer while Federer is very confident against Roddick).

The-Champ
05-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Both have great serves but I'd still take roddick's serve anytime than federer's.

RoddickAce
05-25-2009, 09:07 AM
Roddick has a better serve when considering the overall stats he delivers on the tour. He has a considerable higher 1st serve percentage (often in the 70's even 80's), considerable higher average speed (Mid 120's, sometimes even 130's) and higher number of service games won. After all, serving is Roddick's single most important weapon by far to hold his place in today's competition, while Federer has been known to struggling with serving when it mattered the most in the recent year.

However the impression that Federer has a better serve really strikes WHENEVER Federer plays Roddick. The facts are:

1, In almost all the Federer vs Roddick head to head, Federer out served Roddick by having more aces, higher percentage service points won and more service games won. Lagging slightly only on the first serve percentage.

2, Federer delivers more aces when playing Roddick than against almost all other top 10 players. He almost never struggles with serving when playing Roddick, compared to his games against other top players such as Nadal.

3, Roddick has considerable lower serving stats (be it 1st serve percentage, average speed or aces) when playing against Federer than against almost all other players.

The conclusion is, Federer is one of the best readers and retuners of the Roddick serve and Roddick on the other hand is one of the worst readers and returners of the Federer serve. This is probably technical, but mental factors can also play a big factor (Roddick has very little confidence against Federer while Federer is very confident against Roddick).

Nice post, totally agree with you.

NamRanger
05-25-2009, 09:07 AM
They both are. Nothing wrong with that though. You use what you got.


Roddick has finals at Wimbledon, a win at the USO, SF at Indian Wells, and titles on clay, slow hcs, fast hcs, etc.



He can't be a one trick pony and do all that.

Kostas
05-25-2009, 09:52 AM
Whoever has access to all the data should look at the service games won by each weighted by the rankings of their opponents.

I would imagine the average rank of Fed's opponents would be somewhat higher than the average rank of Andy's opponents. You could also categorize the service games something like vs. Top 10, Top 25, Top 50 etc.

This might give you a better indication as Andy's results may not be "pulled down" significantly enough due to the fact he doesn't face as tough of competition on average.

I have no idea what the numbers would come out to be but it'd be interesting.

380pistol
05-25-2009, 09:56 AM
Cuz there are some aspects of Federer's serve that are superior to Roddick's.

NamRanger
05-25-2009, 09:56 AM
Whoever has access to all the data should look at the service games won by each weighted by the rankings of their opponents.

I would imagine the average rank of Fed's opponents would be somewhat higher than the average rank of Andy's opponents. You could also categorize the service games something like vs. Top 10, Top 25, Top 50 etc.

This might give you a better indication as Andy's results may not be "pulled down" significantly enough due to the fact he doesn't face as tough of competition on average.

I have no idea what the numbers would come out to be but it'd be interesting.


Roddick is consistently in the quarters/semis of most tournaments. He plays plenty of higher ranked opponents.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 09:59 AM
My point exactly. He is a one-trick pony. Though I do give him credit for that trick that he has.

c'mon, roddick has got a decent ground game - he's got weapons - huge forehand still and his backhand is getting better. But, if he didn't have that serve he would have to improve other lements of his game

All-rounder
05-25-2009, 10:01 AM
c'mon, roddick has got a decent ground game - he's got weapons - huge forehand still and his backhand is getting better. But, if he didn't have that serve he would have to improve other lements of his game
HUGE forehand you must be lost in 2003 his forehand is weak now compared to what it was back then

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:02 AM
HUGE forehand you must be lost in 2003 his forehand is weak now compared to what it was back then

but he can still hit hard, he just chooses to play % better - his game has matured.

All-rounder
05-25-2009, 10:04 AM
but he can still hit hard, he just chooses to play % better - his game has matured.
His game has matured but it has cost him now he finds himself playing the baseline game most of the time

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:15 AM
His game has matured but it has cost him now he finds himself playing the baseline game most of the time

lets not forget, roddick purposely changed his game because the evolution of tennis suddenly changed in a few years.

First - roddick hit quite a few errors hitting the living crud outta the ball - high risk will cost you eventually. and lets not forget that high risk play was normal for the game at this point (03/04) because returning wasn't as good and the surfacefavoured fast shots.

secondly - the courts got slower, there's gonna be no point hitting the cover off the ball on the really slow surfaces because the defence game improved so much that the ball's would just keep coming back - meaning more unforced errors.

I admit, his forehand has declined in recent years because he puts way too much spin on the ball for my liking - buit everything else about his game has improved quite a bit. he's fitter and can get balls back - or he can play aggressive - meaning he isn't one dimensional at all.

Kostas
05-25-2009, 10:18 AM
Roddick is consistently in the quarters/semis of most tournaments. He plays plenty of higher ranked opponents.

I'm not saying he doesn't...be in relation to Fed how are his opp's rankings? Andy also plays in more smaller tournies (Memphis) as well.

Just a quick glance at Andy's opponents for 2009 shows me an average ranking of 71 for 35 matches. Fed has an average opp ranking of 43 for 33 matches.

I would have to think a variance that significant would affect their relative statistics.

Mick
05-25-2009, 10:19 AM
i think if you ask roddick who has a better serve between federer and himself, he would say federer.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:21 AM
federer fans cant take federer's decline.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:21 AM
i think if you ask roddick who has a better serve between federer and himself, he would say federer.

because roddick gives credit to his opponent - unlike federer who balsts people tactics everytime he loses.

All-rounder
05-25-2009, 10:24 AM
federer fans cant take federer's decline.
I'm surprised your still a roddick fan after US open 2003

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm surprised your still a roddick fan after US open 2003

i don't root for the winner - that's too one - dimensional

Commando Tennis Shorts
05-25-2009, 10:28 AM
It's pretty ridiculous for some of you to call Roddick a one-trick pony. If that's the case, then anyone outside of the top 10 should be thought of as a no-trick pony.

It is continually amazing to see people on this thread call people in the top 5 or 10 inferior players. In Roddick's case, he's the freaking 6th best tennis player IN THE WORLD. There's nothing inferior or one-trick about that.

Let's not forget---Roddick has been one of the most consistent players on tour in the past five years (along with him, I would also include Federer, Nadal, Davydenko and that's it). He's consistently in the top 5 or 6 EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It is strange how when you have a noticeable tennis skill, you are chastised for your skill being too good (in Roddick's case, his serve). I don't think I've ever heard somebody say, "Hey, if he didn't take the ball so early, Agassi wouldn't be as good a player," or "Man, if Nadal didn't have his strength, he wouldn't be number 1 right now."

When Roddick's serve is on, people say he's just a serve. When his serve isn't on, people say he's losing it. When he gets angry, this board says he's too serious. When he has fun, the same people say he's an annoying clown. He just can't win with you people.

Rambling done.

manny pacquiao P4P king
05-25-2009, 10:30 AM
It's pretty ridiculous for some of you to call Roddick a one-trick pony. If that's the case, then anyone outside of the top 10 should be thought of as a no-trick pony.

It is continually amazing to see people on this thread call people in the top 5 or 10 inferior players. In Roddick's case, he's the freaking 6th best tennis player IN THE WORLD. There's nothing inferior or one-trick about that.

Let's not forget---Roddick has been one of the most consistent players on tour in the past five years (along with him, I would also include Federer, Nadal, Davydenko and that's it). He's consistently in the top 5 or 6 EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It is strange how when you have a noticeable tennis skill, you are chastised for your skill being too good (in Roddick's case, his serve). I don't think I've ever heard somebody say, "Hey, if he didn't take the ball so early, Agassi wouldn't be as good a player," or "Man, if Nadal didn't have his strength, he wouldn't be number 1 right now."

When Roddick's serve is on, people say he's just a serve. When his serve isn't on, people say he's losing it. When he gets angry, this board says he's too serious. When he has fun, the same people say he's an annoying clown. He just can't win with you people.

Rambling done.



yes
yes yes
yes yes yes
yes yes yes yes
yes yes yes yes yes

great post

Joseph L. Barrow
05-25-2009, 12:12 PM
I'm not saying he doesn't...be in relation to Fed how are his opp's rankings? Andy also plays in more smaller tournies (Memphis) as well.

Just a quick glance at Andy's opponents for 2009 shows me an average ranking of 71 for 35 matches. Fed has an average opp ranking of 43 for 33 matches.

I would have to think a variance that significant would affect their relative statistics.
All right, then- I've just counted out Federer and Roddick's respective year-to-date service-games-held statistics in matches against Nadal, Murray and Djokovic. Since these three are the very best possible common opponents, this should serve as the absolute most direct possible comparison of the relative effectiveness of Federer and Roddick's respective serves against top players.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Federer has won 63 of 90 service games, or 70%.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Roddick has won 31 of 42 service games, or approximately 74%.

In other words, even against the very best players in the business, in spite of being inferior in virtually every other conceivable aspect of the game, Roddick still holds serve more often than Federer does. I daresay there is no rational explanation for this reality other than the fact that Roddick has a better serve than Federer.

P_Agony
05-25-2009, 12:36 PM
I think it's because of the placement and variety, both are much bigger than Roddick's serve. Roddick serve is huge, true, but a lot of times he just hits it strairght to the opponent's racquet.

Serve_Ace
05-25-2009, 12:40 PM
I think it's because of the placement and variety, both are much bigger than Roddick's serve. Roddick serve is huge, true, but a lot of times he just hits it strairght to the opponent's racquet.

Yup, that's why Roger just can easily stick his racket out andc block it back.

bolo
05-25-2009, 12:42 PM
All right, then- I've just counted out Federer and Roddick's respective year-to-date service-games-held statistics in matches against Nadal, Murray and Djokovic. Since these three are the very best possible common opponents, this should serve as the absolute most direct possible comparison of the relative effectiveness of Federer and Roddick's respective serves against top players.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Federer has won 63 of 90 service games, or 70%.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Roddick has won 31 of 42 service games, or approximately 74%.

In other words, even against the very best players in the business, in spite of being inferior in virtually every other conceivable aspect of the game, Roddick still holds serve more often than Federer does. I daresay there is no rational explanation for this reality other than the fact that Roddick has a better serve than Federer.

Pretty good. I think the way to improve this would be to take out the clay court stats. since roddick never faces those guys on clay and it's much easier to break on clay.

But I agree overall that roddick holds serve about the same with less to work with in almost every other aspect of his game.

dh003i
05-25-2009, 01:26 PM
90% to 88% isn't that big of a difference. And Federer's probably played more service games, seeing how he's gotten deeper into more tourneys.

Yea, I agree with is. Roddick doesn't go nearly as deep into tournaments as Federer does on average; hence, he beats up on weaker players. Federer ends up playing against superior service-return players more often.

tacou
05-25-2009, 01:28 PM
when Fed was #1, especially the last 2yrs or so, his serve got him out of SO many tough situations, it was ridiculous.

Roddick has a great serve but certain players (like Fed and Murray) just are not effected by its overwhelming pace.

dh003i
05-25-2009, 01:31 PM
If Roddick has a much worse ground game, volleys, movement, and mentality than Federer as most people on this board agree, and he still manages to win more service games, he obviously has a better serve.
I would argue that his serve is at least on par with Sampras' in terms of effectiveness. Unfortunately he can't back it up with much.

That doesn't necessarily follow. See my comments above. Roddick wins slightly more service games than Federer because he doesn't play as far into most tournaments, thus beats up on weaker players.

Of course he has a good serve. But he fact that Federer is so easily able to deal with Roddick's serve suggests weakness.

flying24
05-25-2009, 01:32 PM
Since Federer's serve is superior to Roddick's in every aspect other than speed. That being said the speed difference is substantial enough Roddick still might have the better serve.

dh003i
05-25-2009, 01:38 PM
All right, then- I've just counted out Federer and Roddick's respective year-to-date service-games-held statistics in matches against Nadal, Murray and Djokovic. Since these three are the very best possible common opponents, this should serve as the absolute most direct possible comparison of the relative effectiveness of Federer and Roddick's respective serves against top players.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Federer has won 63 of 90 service games, or 70%.

In matches against Nadal, Murray or Djokovic so far this year, Roddick has won 31 of 42 service games, or approximately 74%.

In other words, even against the very best players in the business, in spite of being inferior in virtually every other conceivable aspect of the game, Roddick still holds serve more often than Federer does. I daresay there is no rational explanation for this reality other than the fact that Roddick has a better serve than Federer.

Fair enough for this year. But what about the last 5 years?

dh003i
05-25-2009, 01:40 PM
when Fed was #1, especially the last 2yrs or so, his serve got him out of SO many tough situations, it was ridiculous.

Roddick has a great serve but certain players (like Fed and Murray) just are not effected by its overwhelming pace.

I don't know how much Nadal or Djokovic are affected by it either. (but for sure Fed and Murray are basically immune).

And effectiveness against top players is one incredibly important category.

akv89
05-25-2009, 01:41 PM
That doesn't necessarily follow. See my comments above. Roddick wins slightly more service games than Federer because he doesn't play as far into most tournaments, thus beats up on weaker players.

Of course he has a good serve. But he fact that Federer is so easily able to deal with Roddick's serve suggests weakness.

Federer out-serving Roddick when they play has more to do with Federer's excellent returning skills than it does with Roddick's serve. Federer is one of the toughest guys to ace on tour. He knows that with Roddick, he only needs to return the serve back past the service box to gain control of most points since Roddick's ground game is comparatively weak. Roddick on the other hand has one of the weaker returns of serve and gets aced more often.

akv89
05-25-2009, 01:43 PM
when Fed was #1, especially the last 2yrs or so, his serve got him out of SO many tough situations, it was ridiculous.

Roddick has a great serve but certain players (like Fed and Murray) just are not effected by its overwhelming pace.

I think Federer was relying more often on his serve last year, when the rest of his game went down a little bit. I don't think he ever served as many aces in a season as he did last year. His forehand was his biggest weapon when he was #1.

JeMar
05-25-2009, 02:06 PM
Who says Federer has a better serve than Roddick? :confused:

Cesc Fabregas
05-25-2009, 02:36 PM
Roddick has a far better serve than Federer the stats back that up as well.

Joseph L. Barrow
05-25-2009, 04:32 PM
I don't know how much Nadal or Djokovic are affected by it either. (but for sure Fed and Murray are basically immune).

And effectiveness against top players is one incredibly important category.
Well, in matches against Nadal and Djokovic so far this year, Roddick has held 31 of 35 service games, or approximately 88.6%- this is only a hair lower than his regular service games held average, and is absolutely amazing against guys of their caliber. I would say they're pretty well affected by it (Federer, by contrast, has only held 45 of 63 against them, or about 71%).

Joseph L. Barrow
05-25-2009, 04:36 PM
Fair enough for this year. But what about the last 5 years?
This would take a while to add up, and I'm not willing to waste quite so much time at the moment, but I would venture a guess that Federer probably had a higher service games held percentage against those guys in the previous five years than he has this year, because he was a better player and they were worse players at the time. It is possible it would even be higher than Roddick's (though I wouldn't bet on it), but this would almost certainly be because Federer, particularly the insanely good Federer of '04-07, was just plain much, much better than Roddick in virtually every way aside from serve. Even if Federer held the advantage, a similar number of service games held would still indicate that Roddick had a much better serve than Federer, given Roddick's relative drastic deficiencies in every other major department.

BounceHitBounceHit
05-25-2009, 07:13 PM
Roddick has the better serve. Fed has the better 'hold game' (ie Fed 'backs up' his serve more effectively than Roddick by virtue of using more variety, precise placement, and the ability to consistently follow the serve to net and end the point with a winning volley). BHBH