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BTURNER
06-13-2009, 02:54 PM
Nominees for Fewest errors compared to winners on both sides, fewest DF compared to aces service winners and highest first serve percentages etc.

The one I heard about was the 87 semi Navratilova vs Evert. Certainly the best played by both of their rivalry per the numbers. Have it on DVD the stats on the first two stats were incredibly clean. Can't remember the exact stats on hand but there was a cumulative both player total ratio of almost 3-1 winners to errors with both over 75% average first serves. Trust me play did not deteriorate much in the third set either.

Devilito
06-14-2009, 07:11 PM
Verdasco Nadal 09 Aus Open Semi.... amazingly clean match is what made it so spectacular to watch

leonidas1982
06-14-2009, 07:15 PM
99 Wimbledon final

suwanee4712
06-14-2009, 08:29 PM
I don't have the service percentages, aces, DF's and such. But Martina's 1986 Wimbledon 7-6, 6-3 (one break) win over Mandlikova was extremely high quality. If my memory serves me correctly, they combined for over 50 winners and less than 10 unforced errors. Mandlikova lost the first set in a tiebreak and only committed ONE unforced error.

nfor304
06-15-2009, 12:20 AM
1998 Usopen final Rafter hit less that 10 unforced errors while serve volleying. Pretty impressive

Moose Malloy
06-15-2009, 10:57 AM
Missed passing shots are rarely counted as unforced errors, so some stats involving S&V players are a bit misleading. When both players are constantly S&Ving, chip & charging - as with rafter-philippoussis '98 or martina-madlikova '86 - there aren't really many opportunities to make an UE.

And statisticians vary from tournament to tournament, so its really hard to compare. Also some stats, like service winners, didn't used to be counted in the total winner counts, like they are today.

taking all that into account, this was the best winner to error ratio I've seen:

Kuerten-Mirnyi '01 USO 3rd Round(from the official website)

Kuerten: 103 winners, 13 unforced errors
Mirnyi: 71 winners, 25 unforced errors

others:

Sampras-Rafter '01 USO

Sampras: 60 winners, 14 unforced

Rafter: 45 winners, 19 unforced

380pistol
06-15-2009, 11:07 AM
1997 Grand Slam Cup F
Sampras - 60 winners, 7 unforced errors
Rafter - 38 winners, 12 unforced errors

Krosero or Moose, do either of you know what Becker's (winner/unf. err) was from the 1995 Wimbledon F?? Coupled with Sampras' 68 winner, 7 unfrced error performance it should make the list.

While we're at it didn't McEnroe go something like 33 winners, 2-4 unforced errors in the '84 Wimbledon final?? Do either of you have Connors' final #'s??

380pistol
06-15-2009, 11:10 AM
1998 Usopen final Rafter hit less that 10 unforced errors while serve volleying. Pretty impressive

Rafter finished with 39 winners and 5 unforced errors, but Philppoussis 34 winners and 29 unforced errors, don't help his if we're counting both players. This from CNN/SI.

Moose Malloy
06-15-2009, 03:10 PM
While we're at it didn't McEnroe go something like 33 winners, 2-4 unforced errors in the '84 Wimbledon final?? Do either of you have Connors' final #'s??

from NBC:

McEnroe
75% 1st Serve
35 Winners
2 Unforced Errors
11 Aces
0 Double Faults

Connors
67% 1st Serve
11 Winners
14 Unforced Errors
0 Aces
5 Double Faults

as far as womens matches go, here is a thread on the '88 W Final

There is also the winner/error ratio. NBC displayed the winners and unforced errors at 1-love in the third. Graf had 2.88 times as many winners of all kinds as errors (49 vs. 17), Navratilova 1.75 times as many (21 vs. 12).


http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=172622

krosero
06-15-2009, 05:16 PM
1997 Grand Slam Cup F
Sampras - 60 winners, 7 unforced errors
Rafter - 38 winners, 12 unforced errorsThose stats are from SkySports, but this is one of those cases where the numbers were inflated well beyond the clean winners.

By my count Sampras had 40 clean winners/aces, Rafter 19. In addition I gave each of them 5 service winners (judgment calls), still leaving them well below the official totals.

Krosero or Moose, do either of you know what Becker's (winner/unf. err) was from the 1995 Wimbledon F?? Coupled with Sampras' 68 winner, 7 unfrced error performance it should make the list.Not if we're looking at both players, since Becker made 15 double-faults (and 7 other UE's by Moose's count). Still haven't found Becker's official numbers.

krosero
06-15-2009, 05:26 PM
taking all that into account, this was the best winner to error ratio I've seen:

Kuerten-Mirnyi '01 USO 3rd Round(from the official website)

Kuerten: 103 winners, 13 unforced errors
Mirnyi: 71 winners, 25 unforced errors

More on that match:

The Independent (UK):

At the outset of Kuerten's third round match on Sunday night against Mirnyi, a strapping, 24-year-old Belarussian with an attacking style, the consensus was that either Mirnyi would win in three sets or Kuerten would prevail in five. A win for Kuerten from two sets down was another option: in some respects he is a creature of habit. Three and a half hours later, Kuerten was hailed by the crowd after illuminating the tournament with a triumph, 6-7, 5-7, 7-6, 7-6, 6-2, having retrieved a two-set deficit for the fourth time in his career and extended his five-set record to 14-7.

The lateness of the hour did not deter the media from marvelling at the match statistics: Kuerten hit 104 winners, 33 of them aces, and committed 13 unforced errors, one with a double-fault. His serve was only broken once, in the second set. Mirnyi's ratio of winners to errors was 72-25. He hit 22 aces and double-faulted five times. His persistent approaches to the net gladdened the eye and reaped 27 volley winners.

New York Times:

The performances of Kuerten and Mirnyi were at the highest levels. Through five sets, Kuerten committed just 13 unforced errors, found 33 aces and delivered 104 winners.

For most of four sets, Mirnyi was right there with Kuerten in brilliance. What would pass for impeccable most nights, Mirnyi served 22 aces, committed 25 unforced errors and came up with 72 winners.

Moose Malloy
06-16-2009, 10:22 AM
But Martina's 1986 Wimbledon 7-6, 6-3 (one break) win over Mandlikova was extremely high quality. If my memory serves me correctly, they combined for over 50 winners and less than 10 unforced errors. Mandlikova lost the first set in a tiebreak and only committed ONE unforced error.

These were the stats NBC gave after the 1st set:

Martina - 74% 1st Serve, 18 winners, 4 unforced
Hana - 63%, 21 winners, 2 unforced

I wonder what the numbers were like in the '85 USO final between these 2.

krosero, have you come across any womens matches in recent years that had high published winner counts?

I see Serena had 44 winners in last year's 2 set USO final. And Venus had 60 vs Jankovic at the '07 USO. I would think they got high numbers vs Hingis as well.

rod99
06-16-2009, 10:50 AM
the stats regarding unforced errors are greatly skewed in some of the matches where both players are coming to net (esp on a fast court). if you've got 2 serve/volleyers then pretty much all errors are considered "forced" (unless there is an easy volley or overhead miss). a passing shot will not be considered an unforced error. so while the stats may say that a player only had 7 unforced errors for the match, it wasn't necessarily a cleanly played match. a good example of this is the sampras/rafter gs cup match referenced above.

Drop Shot 11
06-16-2009, 11:18 AM
Roddick

vs.

El Anouyi

krosero
06-16-2009, 12:12 PM
krosero, have you come across any womens matches in recent years that had high published winner counts? Haven't really looked, the only one that comes to mind was the one I did, Serena's final at the 2007 AO (28 winners).

Moose Malloy
06-16-2009, 12:23 PM
According to wimbledon's website, Ivanovic had 72 winners in her 2nd round win over Dechy last year(it was a long match though, 67, 76, 10-8)

Mansewerz
06-16-2009, 12:27 PM
Anyone have stats for AO 2005, Federer v.s Safin. HQ match right there!

Moose Malloy
06-16-2009, 01:01 PM
Anyone have stats for AO 2005, Federer v.s Safin. HQ match right there

Safin: 16 aces, 1 double, 65 winners, 60 unforced
Federer: 22 aces, 8 doubles, 72 winners, 59 unforced

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/aus/2005-01-28-safin-hope_x.htm

thalivest
06-16-2009, 02:55 PM
I see Serena had 44 winners in last year's 2 set USO final. And Venus had 60 vs Jankovic at the '07 USO. I would think they got high numbers vs Hingis as well.

When Serena and Venus play people like Hingis and Jankovic, Serena and Venus always have a ton of winners but a ton of unforced errors as well. Hingis and Janovic have very few winners and low number of unforced errors as well. It is a never a case with anyone hitting alot of winners combined with very few unforced errors, other than maybe Serena herself a couple times Serena played Hingis (2001 U.S Open semis and 2002 Miami quarters perhaps). That is really almost without exception, other than on clay Jankovic's winner count also rises significantly when she plays Venus compared to their matches on other surfaces.

BTURNER
06-16-2009, 03:02 PM
I know when I posted this thread, I sure did not view a count of winners as the criteria for a clean match. The error stat is just as vital. It is the ratio that matters. I mean the total on both sides of the net.

Moose Malloy
06-16-2009, 04:27 PM
I know when I posted this thread, I sure did not view a count of winners as the criteria for a clean match

I know, I was just curious what women have had the highest winner counts. In recent years men have had some ridiculous counts(Kuerten, Gasquet) so it would seem likely that some women, esp the sisters, have as well.

Federer's cat
06-16-2009, 04:32 PM
US Open '08 Serena Williams vs. Jelena Jankovic, one of the greatest women's matches I ever saw. Really cleans hitting, it's a shame it didn't go into 3 sets (Jankovic has about 2-3 set points too).

Moose Malloy
06-21-2009, 03:42 PM
The one I heard about was the 87 semi Navratilova vs Evert. Certainly the best played by both of their rivalry per the numbers. Have it on DVD the stats on the first two stats were incredibly clean. Can't remember the exact stats on hand but there was a cumulative both player total ratio of almost 3-1 winners to errors with both over 75% average first serves.

I don't see any winner stats during the NBC feed of this match. All they have are unforced errors & serve %'s after 2 sets(12 for Martina, 8 for Evert)

After 2 sets of the '85 W Final, they have Chris at 26 winners, 8 unforced & Martina at 33 winners, 21 unforced.

BTURNER
06-21-2009, 04:40 PM
I rember the offered them Now I have to look again. They never gave the final numbers on winner/error ratios at the end. What they gave was a total winner and error number for BOTH players at the end of the first game of the third. If you got the match, and got nothing else to do....Moose ol buddy....

Moose Malloy
06-22-2009, 09:49 AM
What they gave was a total winner and error number for BOTH players at the end of the first game of the third.

That is the graphic I was referring to. No winners were given, just errors & serve %'s.

krosero
06-22-2009, 10:51 AM
There was an earlier graphic at 4-5 in the second: Navratilova 32 winners and 10 ue, Evert 30 winners and 8 ue.

BTURNER
06-22-2009, 01:02 PM
THATS THE ONE! Sadly I never got final total. I tried to do one of your little tallys thereafter. I went crazy.

krosero
06-22-2009, 01:29 PM
THATS THE ONE! Sadly I never got final total. I tried to do one of your little tallys thereafter. I went crazy.Presuming you counted both winners and UE: I've never done this with UE because mixing in my own judgment calls with the judgments of another statistician somehow doesn't seem coherent. If we're not judging things the same way, then what would any final number mean?

With winners I tend to think it's safer, if I'm confident that the official stats only include a few, obvious judgment calls -- like balls that are deflected off the opponent's racquet and are obviously unreturnable. Then I could count forward from a midmatch graphic and confidently keep track of any such judgment calls. But it's not always certain how NBC or any other source might be counting winners. If I know or suspect that they're making very generous judgment calls on winners, then I don't even try to complete their midmatch stats. I just get my own count from start to finish (the only really safe way of counting).

Borgforever
06-22-2009, 02:40 PM
I agree krosero -- the safest IMO is total errors and winners (and then the array of the "usual suspects" such as 1st serve percentage, point won 1st/2nd serve et al)...

UE judgment-calls seem to be paper-thin ice IMO...

BTURNER
06-23-2009, 04:08 PM
In case I am being to subtle, any chance one of you fine statistician type gentlemen can do a breakdown on this match if you have the DVD? I have a will that is due for an overhaul, and not enough relatives to divide up my multi-million dollar fortune...I haven't seen any matches of Evert/Navratilova get one in awhile and I think this one is better played than either the RG finals or even the Us OPEN 84. It's a great candidate.

krosero
06-23-2009, 04:48 PM
I've had it on my list for a while, might as well do it now. Look for it in the next weeks.