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TJK
06-18-2009, 05:55 PM
Hi,

I'm in a 3.5 NorCal league, I have a 3.5 computer rating.

This year we formed a team based on just a bunch of people who came out to play near a park where I live. The problem is, many of them are self-rated since they haven't played league games before. And we have been winning - a LOT. We currently have a 8-2 record and at #1 in our flight.

So, did we cheat and put a bunch of sandbaggers? I don't think so. The thing is, I can beat them in singles 60% of the time (and nearly 80% in doubles), and so if I am rated 3.5 correctly by the USTA computer, then they should also be 3.5. (And I've played in 3.5 leagues normally - no appeals, no throwing matches, etc)

But the USTA computer doesn't know this - the wins I have against these 3.5 self-raters in my team are games played during practice with members of my own team. In the official USTA matches, we have one guy who currently has a 6-0 record (2 of them are tie-breakers), another with 6-1 record, etc. I hate to do this, but should I advice my members to intentionally throw away a game?

I hate to win through cheating - I'd rather not, but since I (3.5c) can beat these guys, they can't be 4.0.

What should we do? I guess I will be bumped up to 4.0 at the end of the season (6-1 win record) which is fine, but I don't think my teammates should be DQ because they can't beat even me more than half the time.


Do you agree? Disagree? Comments welcome...

amarone
06-18-2009, 06:06 PM
Can you provide a link to the TennisLink record for this team?

Win-loss records are irrelevant. It is the margin of victory/loss and strength of opopnents/partner that counts.

Topaz
06-18-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, since you are likely getting bumped up, it seems that most of your guys would be 4.0s. It doesn't sound like you guys did this on purpose though (unlike other 'crafted' teams). Some of the wins were close and competitive, and your team does have two losses.

As far as the DQs, maybe go back and take a close look at the players' individual records and see if you can tell where a strike (or two) may have occurred?

Jim A
06-18-2009, 07:07 PM
How soon after a player has had their (4) matches against C/B rated opponents does his rating change from S to D?

Here is one self-rated on our team and matches in order of the season

W 5-7, 6-4, 6-2 vs (C) Player is 3-3 in league
W 7-6, 6-2 vs (S) is 3-1 in league
W 6-2, 6-0 vs (B) is 2-2 (0-1 singles)
L 3-6, 7-5, 6-3 vs (S) is 6-0 (2-0 singles/4-0 #1 dubs)
W 7-6, 6-2 vs (C) is 2-2 singles in league
W 4-6, 6-2, 6-0 vs (C) is 4-1 league play (2-1 singles)

A couple sets have been closer than they should have been and given a couple away due to lapses, which probably helps in the computer aspect of it all (ie. should have won last night 2 and 2 and beaten the self-rated a couple weeks back)

Topaz
06-19-2009, 02:48 AM
^^^IMO, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Those are close scores, not blowouts (except the one at 2 and 0), plus there is a loss in there.

kylebarendrick
06-19-2009, 06:06 AM
Never mind...

amarone
06-19-2009, 06:45 AM
How soon after a player has had their (4) matches against C/B rated opponents does his rating change from S to D?
A player gets a dynamic rating after only two matches. If you play a self-rated player who has not played or only played one match, that will not affect you as they have not established a dynamic rating. That is why when looking at results such as in this thread, it is important to consider not just that someone is self-rated but if they had played twice or more by the time they played the match in question.

And it is not only against C/B players. Matches against A and D also count.

amarone
06-19-2009, 06:49 AM
Here is one self-rated on our team and matches in order of the season

W 5-7, 6-4, 6-2 vs (C) Player is 3-3 in league
W 7-6, 6-2 vs (S) is 3-1 in league
W 6-2, 6-0 vs (B) is 2-2 (0-1 singles)
L 3-6, 7-5, 6-3 vs (S) is 6-0 (2-0 singles/4-0 #1 dubs)
W 7-6, 6-2 vs (C) is 2-2 singles in league
W 4-6, 6-2, 6-0 vs (C) is 4-1 league play (2-1 singles)

Repeating my comment from post 2: win-loss records are unimportant. To try assess the strength of the opponent you need to see the margin of victory and, in turn, try assess the strength of their opponents. For example, the one loss in the results above could have generated a strike. If the opponent had been winning his matches easily, he may have a high dynamic rating by now, and a three set loss to him could have dragged your player up to that level.

saeta119
06-19-2009, 07:21 AM
The first time someone plays in a league yes you will probably end up rating yourself lower than you should, if you have a good record you will be bumped and will not be able to play the same rating league again.

In the end you will end up playing people that are of your level so it's ok.

I started on a 3.5 league, next year bumped to a 4.0, year after 4.5, I couldn't beat 4.5's as easily and haven't been bumped ever since.

TJK
06-19-2009, 10:04 AM
Can you provide a link to the TennisLink record for this team?

Win-loss records are irrelevant. It is the margin of victory/loss and strength of opopnents/partner that counts.

I'd love to be able to do that, but then I lose any remaining plausible deniability I have, because I understand that throwing away matches under any reason is not considered kosher.

Here's the match results for one of the players (with a little obfuscation - e.g. 6-4 was actually 6-3, etc.):

6-2, 6-3 doubles against 3.5s & 3.5c
6-3, 6-4 doubles against 3.5b & 3.5b
6-1, 2-6, 1-0 singles against 3.5b
6-3, 6-3 doubles against 3.5a & 3.5s
6-3, 3-6, 1-0 doubles against 3.5s & 3.5a
6-1, 6-3 doubles against 3.5a & 3.5c


Again, I personally don't mind myself being bumped up at the end of the year - I like playing with and against players better than me. But then, it sucks to have team members DQed when the computer can't see their actual game or our own practice match results.

Topaz
06-19-2009, 10:11 AM
^^^Obfuscation? As in...lying? If the score is 6-3, you put in 6-3. Jeez.

amarone
06-19-2009, 11:00 AM
6-2, 6-3 doubles against 3.5s & 3.5c
6-3, 6-4 doubles against 3.5b & 3.5b
6-1, 2-6, 1-0 singles against 3.5b
6-3, 6-3 doubles against 3.5a & 3.5s
6-3, 3-6, 1-0 doubles against 3.5s & 3.5a
6-1, 6-3 doubles against 3.5a & 3.5c
I'd be surprised if that was a DQ, although we do not know the strength of the opponents in general, but there are a few clues. Also, we do not know the strength of partner, which also counts.

In all of what follows, remember that to get a strike the dynamic rating has to be that of a good 4.0.

Match 1: competitive. This may not even count, if the 3.5s had not played two matches to generate a dynamic rating.

Match 2: competitive. We do not know the strength of opponents. Did they get their benchmark status while 3.5, or are they bumped from 3.0? Even if they were 3.5, all we know is that they are likely to be above average strength because they were on a team that did well. Even so, beating them in a close match does not indicate a level of play of a good 4.0.

Match 3: Competitive. As match 2.

Match 4: Competitive. We do not know the strength of the 3.5s. We do know that the 3.5a started the season right at the top of 3.5. There is a chance that this match could generate a strike if both the 3.5a and the 3.5s have dynamic ratings of approaching mid 4.0 or better.

Match 5: As match 4 but a strike is less likely as the match result was closer.

Match 6: Similar to match 4 but it is perhaps less likely that the 3.5c has risen to mid 4.0 than the 3.5s in mtach 4. But the match was a bit more one-sided. So there is a possible strike.


By making a few assumptions, it is possible that there are three strikes in that set of matches, but I think it very unlikely. There may even be none. A DQ is more likely if this person was playing with a weak player.

kylebarendrick
06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
OK, I'm convinced I know who the player is that you are talking about. One theory is that the first match goes a long way towards defining the dynamic rating of a self-rated player. That match was an easy, but not blow-out win against two weak 3.5 players. I would take that along with the 3-set singles win against someone just bumped from 3.0 and the 3-setter against an everage 3.5 pair and say he's safe from being DQ'd.

Don't even consider throwing games. That is exactly the sort of behavior that messes up the system and creates all of the sandbagging threads you'll see around here.

Say "hi" to Joshua for me.

Raiden.Kaminari
06-22-2009, 12:00 PM
NorCal's website makes it so easy to find which team you are on compared to tennis link. Especially after Kyle's "Joshua" comment.

AP is in danger as a singles player. He seems within range as a doubles player.

EK is fine.

JA appears to be fine.

RC should be fine.

You shouldn't worry about your teammates getting 3 strike disqualified. I wouldn't be surprised if the DC/W makes it to Nationals again.

amarone
06-22-2009, 02:14 PM
One theory is that the first match goes a long way towards defining the dynamic rating of a self-rated player. It is certainly true that the first match can have a big effect. The dynamic rating is calculated by averaging up to the last four dynamic ratings (it will be fewer than four if you have not yet played four). Hence the first match is not diluted at all by being averaged with any earlier ratings. A high rating will then carry into the calculation after the second match and can have a big effect on that too.

Let us consider a high 3.0 player who plays four matches. In three of them he plays exactly to a rating of 2.98 and in one to 4.0. If he plays the 2.98 matches first, his exact rating after each match will be 2.98, 2.98, 2.98, 3.235. No strikes.

If he starts with a 4.0 followed by three 2.98s, his rating will be 4.0 (strike), 3.49 (strike), 3.32 (strike, DQ).

the_playa
06-29-2009, 12:40 PM
amarone knows his stuff.

TennisND
07-20-2009, 05:57 AM
I got one of the team member I think he is very close to be bumped thus I need your guys' advice here.

Below is his record:
Jan 09: 3.0
May 09: 3.5 (got DQ and bump up)
Starting June, he got into 2 leagues:
1. Single Men 3.5 league: 4-0 so far
1st game: 2 and 1 (vs self rate 3.5)
2nd: 0 and 2 (vs 3.0 player)
3rd: 3 and 1 (vs decent 3.5 player)
4rd: 0 and 1 (vs self rate 3.5)

2. Mixed double 7.0: 2-1 (his partner is 3.0)
1st game: 1 and 3 (vs 3.5+3.0)
2nd game: 2 and 3 (vs 2 decent 3.5 players)
3rd: lost 6 and 3 vs (1 strong 3.5 and 1 decent 3.5).

He will attend a double combo in my team. I am worrying pairing him with our 4.0 player since he might got DQ and ruin our score.

Please help. What do you think of him being bumped up again second time?

cak
07-20-2009, 06:13 AM
Mixed doesn't count. Nor does combo. He could get DQ'd if your section allows out of level grievances in those leagues, but that means someone would have to complain, and thus far he doesn't seem that out there.

zebano
07-21-2009, 12:22 PM
Could someone explain what a/b/c/s is?

conditionZero
07-21-2009, 12:29 PM
Could someone explain what a/b/c/s is?

Key to Type of Rating
S - Self-rate or Medical Appeal
A - Appeal
B - Benchmark - advanced to playoff or championship round
C - Computer
D - Dynamic
M - Mixed Exclusive Year-end Rating
T - Tournament Exclusive Year End Rating