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Guru
06-23-2009, 09:14 PM
Who's the best female player since Steffi Graf ?

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Serena. Serena > Henin. End of story. Those are the 2 logical choices, w/ Venus @ 3rd.

maverick66
06-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Serena Williams. I am not a fan but she is. She takes time off, shows up out of shape, and wins. She is always a favorite no matter what she has been doing prior to the tournament.

Nadal_Freak
06-23-2009, 09:18 PM
Henin owns Serena.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:19 PM
How so? Explain your logic, NF.

Guru
06-23-2009, 09:22 PM
Serena > Henin. End of story. Those are the 2 logical choices, w/ Venus @ 3rd

You think Venus is a better player than Hingis ?

At her best Henin was much more consistent than Serena
she spent longer at number one and won 41 titles compared to Serena's 33 titles.

Hingis won more than both with 43 titles in her career.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:27 PM
It's tough to say. Hingis is more accomplished, but Venus's definetly the better player. Just off of the head, 5 Wimbledons is pretty impressive, compared to 1 for Hingis. Venus has 8 (I think) GS titles to Hingis' 5. To me, that's what puts Venus over.

Hingis is like the Hewitt of the WTA. Probably going to be forgotten b/c of all the greats that came after her, but still a great player during her run. Just got overpowered and injured at the end of her run. I'd put Venus over her.

Nadal_Freak
06-23-2009, 09:27 PM
How so? Explain your logic, NF.
Before she retired, she beat Serena in like 3 straight slams (French Open, Wimbledon, and US Open). She had Serena's number. She burned out but it was obvious who the better player was.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:30 PM
Prime Serena (Serena slam era) owns Prime Henin, IMO. If out of shape Serena still came close to prime Henin, I'd say in shape Serena would have won 7 of 10 meetings.

Claudius
06-23-2009, 09:31 PM
Prime Serena (Serena slam era) owns Prime Henin, IMO. If out of shape Serena still came close to prime Henin, I'd say in shape Serena would have won 7 of 10 meetings.

Henin owns. She has everything Serena doesn't

egn
06-23-2009, 09:32 PM
It is a tough call but I edge Serena over Henin. Sure in Serena's peak she beat Henin and vice versa and their head to head is close. However last time I checked Serena had 10 slams..Henin had 7. Serena has one on every surface..Henin does not. Henin has more titles but Serena has the better winning percentage..Henin has more tour final championships..Serena has more tier 1...Henin has more #1 years..Serena has more top 10 years..

You can go backand forth I edge Serena on the sole fact that if you put the two I feel at their best I see Serena winning on three surfaces, hard, grass, indoor and Henin only winning on clay. Achievement wise right now they are close but Serena can still change that if she continues to work at it. Henin quit too early but she looked like she was on a down, Serena has been down for a while due to her own bad habits and is still coming through

Guru
06-23-2009, 09:33 PM
It's tough to say. Hingis is more accomplished, but Venus's definetly the better player.

Better player at Wimbeldon maybe but nowhere else
what has Venus done in the last five years apart from win Wimbeldon ?

She's starting to look like a grass court specialist.


Just off of the head, 5 Wimbledons is pretty impressive, compared to 1 for Hingis

three Australian Open titles is impressive, compared to none for Venus.

Nadal_Freak
06-23-2009, 09:34 PM
It is a tough call but I edge Serena over Henin. Sure in Serena's peak she beat Henin and vice versa and their head to head is close. However last time I checked Serena had 10 slams..Henin had 7. Serena has one on every surface..Henin does not. Henin has more titles but Serena has the better winning percentage..Henin has more tour final championships..Serena has more tier 1...Henin has more #1 years..Serena has more top 10 years..

You can go backand forth I edge Serena on the sole fact that if you put the two I feel at their best I see Serena winning on three surfaces, hard, grass, indoor and Henin only winning on grass. Achievement wise right now they are close but Serena can still change that if she continues to work at it. Henin quit too early but she looked like she was on a down, Serena has been down for a while due to her own bad habits and is still coming through
Henin was a freaking backboard in her prime. It would be hard for anyone to beat her playing like that. She was even winning on fast surfaces that didn't suit her.

paulorenzo
06-23-2009, 09:34 PM
Before she retired, she beat Serena in like 3 straight slams (French Open, Wimbledon, and US Open). She had Serena's number. She burned out but it was obvious who the better player was.

oddly enough, the out of shape serena had more longevity than justine.
i do however think that serena had what justine lacked, and vice versa.

serena had the power, the offensive return and the big serve.
justine had the all court game, shot selection, transition game and footwork/footspeed. i think it's a toss up regardless of slams and career titles won.
albeit both were/are terrific shotmakers

paulorenzo
06-23-2009, 09:37 PM
Henin was a freaking backboard in her prime. It would be hard for anyone to beat her playing like that. She was even winning on fast surfaces that didn't suit her.

henin was also med-fast court player.
albeit she has never won, she has mad a few finals appearances at wimby.

egn
06-23-2009, 09:37 PM
Henin owns. She has everything Serena doesn't

Huh wimbledon?


Before she retired, she beat Serena in like 3 straight slams (French Open, Wimbledon, and US Open). She had Serena's number. She burned out but it was obvious who the better player was.

Hmm 7-6 h2h and Serena won their last meeting...wasn't Serena also burnt out, out of shape and too busy opening her loud mouth spewing **** to pay attention to tennis...

oh no right excuses can only be made for Nadal and Fed losses.

egn
06-23-2009, 09:38 PM
henin was a med-fast court player. she did not excel as much on clay or most slow surfaces, hence the fact that she has no RG trophy.

dude henin has 4 French Open trophies..fail >.>

egn
06-23-2009, 09:40 PM
Henin was a freaking backboard in her prime. It would be hard for anyone to beat her playing like that. She was even winning on fast surfaces that didn't suit her.

Serena won on the slow surfaces in her prime? She won Rome against Justine Henin of all people and the French Open...

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:40 PM
I think it goes down to one thing. Serena has the career slam. If this is enough to put Federer over Sampras (in some's minds), why is it not enough in this case? Besides the fact, 10 slams to 7?

egn
06-23-2009, 09:43 PM
I think it goes down to one thing. Serena has the career slam. If this is enough to put Federer over Sampras (in some's minds), why is it not enough in this case? Besides the fact, 10 slams to 7?

Serena's attitude and bothersome manners will always lead her to be disliked. Even if she is better than Henin and won 5 out of 6 slams she entered in her prime >.> a feat Henin never came close too. All of Henin's losses to Serena's don't count as they were either pre prime or when she was burnt out or they were luck and all of Henin's wins show superior skill.

If Serena was not such an *** she might get the reputation she deserves but she is an *** so she doesnt fair trade off for bad manners.

vbranis
06-23-2009, 09:43 PM
To answer the question directly, Henin was a better player. Henin had all the shots, tremendous variety/versatility, and speed.

Sure, Serena has more accomplishments, but she is NOT the better player. The numbers can only say so much. Skill-wise, Henin was clearly better.

Nadal_Freak
06-23-2009, 09:45 PM
I think it goes down to one thing. Serena has the career slam. If this is enough to put Federer over Sampras (in some's minds), why is it not enough in this case? Besides the fact, 10 slams to 7?
Henin owned Serena most of her career and would've surpassed Serena if she stayed dedicated to the sport. Strange that she just disappeared after losing to Safina a couple times.

Guru
06-23-2009, 09:47 PM
Venus has a winning record against Henin
but Henin didn't play Venus between 04-06.

Serena also has a winning record against Henin
but again those wins came early in Justine's career
between 03-07 Justine went 5-1 against Serena.

In 2007 she knocked Serena out of three Grand Slams.

Justine may not have a Wimbledon title
but she does have an Olympic gold medal
and two WTA championships, things that Serena doesn't have.

egn
06-23-2009, 09:48 PM
Henin owned Serena most of her career and would've surpassed Serena if she stayed dedicated to the sport. Strange that she just disappeared after losing to Safina a couple times.

In 2008 she had lost to Safina, Ivanovic I believe, Jankovic and Serena ...she felt off her groove and with her weak mentalness quit.

paulorenzo
06-23-2009, 09:50 PM
I think it goes down to one thing. Serena has the career slam. If this is enough to put Federer over Sampras (in some's minds), why is it not enough in this case? Besides the fact, 10 slams to 7?
i agree with the comparison, getting to and winning slams is what separates the two.
but keep in mind, serena didnt play as much as henin did, as of the last few years, she would lose early in smaller tournaments regularly and show up big in the slams.
i'm not saying she is the only one that does this, but she certainly is one of the strongest cases.

egn
06-23-2009, 09:50 PM
Venus has a winning record against Henin
but Henin didn't play Venus between 04-06.

Serena also has a winning record against Henin
but again those wins came early in Justine's career
between 03-07 Justine went 5-1 against Serena.

In 2007 she knocked Serena out of three Grand Slams.

Justine may not have a Wimbledon title
but she does have an Olympic gold medal
and two WTA championships, things that Serena doesn't have.

Hold on so 04-06 counts for Serena when she was off and on >.> but 01-02 does not count...and 08 either. So once again if Henin is winning it counts. To say Serena was at her best from 04-07 is absurd...I don't know compare 02-03 to 04-07...lets be real here in each other's respective peaks they were dominating one another.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 09:56 PM
Henin has the ''prettier'' game, the more classic one, so people rate her over Serena.

Let's not forget, Henin's serve was a liability for most of her career. Her forehand was good, but could be attacked. Great backhand and net game.

Compare that to Serena, big serve, forehand and backhand. Albeit error prone. But when on her game, unbeatable (See: AO final 07)

A lot of the opinions are impacted by peoples personal opinions on Serena and love for Henin. I don't like Serena's attitude either. But you gotta give credit where credit is due. 10 slams, considering she had knee injuries that may have cut short her prime, is still very impressive, and more impressive to me than Henin.

Guru
06-23-2009, 09:57 PM
Hold on so 04-06 counts for Serena when she was off and on >.> but 01-02 does not count...and 08 either. So once again if Henin is winning it counts. To say Serena was at her best from 04-07 is absurd...I don't know compare 02-03 to 04-07...lets be real here in each other's respective peaks they were dominating one another.

I didn't say that those wins didn't count
but Serena never beat Henin in her prime
she also lost when it mattered the most.

Henin knocked Serena out of four Grand Slams
where as Serena only got one win against Henin in a Slam.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:06 PM
I didn't say that those wins didn't count
but Serena never beat Henin in her prime
she also lost when it mattered the most.

Henin knocked Serena out of four Grand Slams
where as Serena only got one win against Henin in a Slam.

they are 2-4 in slams.
Serena beat Henin in 2003, 2007 and 2008.

At Serena's best 2000-2004 she is 5-3 against Henin
At Henin's best 2003-2007 she is 5-2 against Serena
and in 2008 when neither were at their best Serena is 1-0.

Serena took Henin out of 2 slams the 2001 US Open and 2003 Wimbledon
Henin took her out of 4.

So really I don't see where you give this amazing edge to Henin as if 2000-2002 is not Henin's prime than 2005-2007 is definitely not Serena's

Brned
06-23-2009, 10:09 PM
Henin did not shriek like a pig.
Henin did not fist pump after every single point won.
Henin did not said she was the real number 1 (while se was #2) and lost at the first round in her next match (boy that was funny).
Henin had a beatiful backhand.
Henin got winners using angles and not just power alone.
Henin outplayed while others overpowered.
And the list goes on

Serena may have a better career but IMHO Henin just played better.

Guru
06-23-2009, 10:13 PM
So really I don't see where you give this amazing edge to Henin
as if 2000-2002 is not Henin's prime than 2005-2007 is definitely not Serena's

Her edge is eight more titles, two WTA championships
and an Olympic gold medal.

Henin also spent longer as world number 1
and during that time she owned Serena between 03-07
she beat Serena five in a row which included four wins in Grand Slams.

She also has a win against Serena at Wimbledon
Serena never beat her at the French Open.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:13 PM
Prime Serena (Serena slam era) owns Prime Henin, IMO. If out of shape Serena still came close to prime Henin, I'd say in shape Serena would have won 7 of 10 meetings.

Serena's prime only lasted 18 months. She hardly had a prime. Henin's prime lasted 4 or 5 years. I doubt Serena would win over a third too with both in their primes since Henin still wins every clay meeting and that is already a third of the matches if they are evenly distributed, and since Henin would win some on hard courts it would be almost a tie even with both in their primes.

Anyway it doesnt matter though. Henin gave up any chance to be the best of her generation by quitting when she hadnt yet quite surpassed Serena in slam wins although quickly closing the gap, and having not yet completed the career slam. Thus the only answer is Serena.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Henin did not shriek like a pig.
Henin did not fist pump after every single point won.
Henin did not said she was the real number 1 (while se was #2) and lost at the first round in her next match (boy that was funny).
Henin had a beatiful backhand.
Henin got winners using angles and not just power alone.
Henin outplayed while others overpowered.
And the list goes on

Serena may have a better career but IMHO Henin just played better.

What's the need for that? Nobody's bringing up personal stuff, no need for that kinda talk in here. There's plenty of bad one could say a/b Henin...but let's leave that stuff for the flame wars, ok?

chrisdaniel
06-23-2009, 10:15 PM
Henin owned Serena most of her career and would've surpassed Serena if she stayed dedicated to the sport. Strange that she just disappeared after losing to Safina a couple times.

Yeah, you mean the same Serena that also slacks off and still manages to win slams. This goes to Serena in my opinion. 2007 was a good year for Henin. 2003 the wins were all on clay. I give clay to Henin over Serena. The other match in 2003 Serena straight sets over Henin on grass. Not to mention Serena took her out at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open as well. She wins the head to head regardless. has more slams. If you look at the head to head with Henin and Sharapova, they both took each other out twice in slams. The last two Sharapova won, does that mean Sharapova has accomplished the same as Henin or even close. It's crazy these two did not play for 3 years. You also can't just say that she would have surpassed Serena had she dedicated herself. That is like saying Serena could win 20 grand slams had she actually cared enough. Serena wins this in my opinion

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:15 PM
Venus should be a poll option before Hingis btw. I rate Venus behind both Serena and Henin, but over Hingis. Hingis was a flash in the pan. If Davenport didnt get so much bad luck in the majors I would rate her over Hingis but unfortunately hard to rate 3 major winner over a 5 major winner.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:19 PM
Venus has a winning record against Henin
but Henin didn't play Venus between 04-06.

Venus's head to head with Henin is a huge JOKE with a capital J. All of their matches except one where when Venus was at her absolute peak (which like Serena's was a short one) and before Henin's prime sort of began in spring of 2003 when she won her first slam. If Venus didnt suck too much almost all of 2004-2006 to get far enough to play Henin she would have gotten owned during this period and their head to head quickly evened out if not Henin even passing Venus in it. Not to mention Venus sucks too much on clay to get to play Henin there often where she even got schooled 6-4, 6-1 by a pre prime almost relative nobody Henin at her own 2001 peak.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:21 PM
Her edge is eight more titles, two WTA championships
and an Olympic gold medal.

Henin also spent longer as world number 1
and during that time she owned Serena between 03-07
she beat Serena five in a row which included four wins in Grand Slams.

She also has a win against Serena at Wimbledon
Serena never beat her at the French Open.


Stop staying false facts.

2003-04-07 Charleston Clay F Henin 6-3 6-4
2003-05-26 Roland Garros Clay SF Henin 6-2 4-6 7-5
2003-06-23 Wimbledon Grass SF Williams 6-3 6-2
2007-03-19 Miami Hardcourt F Williams 0-6 7-5 6-3
2007-05-28 Roland Garros Clay QF Henin 6-4 6-3
2007-06-25 Wimbledon Grass QF Henin 6-4 3-6 6-3
2007-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt QF Henin 7-6(3) 6-1

There is the true restults of those 5-2 time you talk about. 4 were slams but there was never 5 in a row.

Here is there complete head to head with dates >..

2001-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt R16 Williams 7-5 6-0
2001-10-29 Sanex Championships Indoor Hardcourt QF Williams 6-3 7-6(5)
2002-05-06 Berlin Clay F Henin 6-2 1-6 7-6(5)
2002-05-13 Rome Clay F Williams 7-6(6) 6-4
2002-09-23 Leipzig Indoor Carpet SF Williams 6-4 6-2
2003-04-07 Charleston Clay F Henin 6-3 6-4
2003-05-26 Roland Garros Clay SF Henin 6-2 4-6 7-5
2003-06-23 Wimbledon Grass SF Williams 6-3 6-2
2007-03-19 Miami Hardcourt F Williams 0-6 7-5 6-3
2007-05-28 Roland Garros Clay QF Henin 6-4 6-3
2007-06-25 Wimbledon Grass QF Henin 6-4 3-6 6-3
2007-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt QF Henin 7-6(3) 6-1
2008-03-24 Miami Hardcourt QF Williams 6-2 6-0

Damn sheesh there make real things up don't spread your wrong information.

Serena has a world championship and more tier 1 titles and hell Serena has a bunch of doubles slams if you want to count the gold as more significance..so really in this argument of yours full of wrong facts..Serena should win as she has the career slam in both singles and doubles..can Henin claim either?

Sorry but wrong facts get me so angry.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 10:21 PM
Serena's prime only lasted 18 months. She hardly had a prime. Henin's prime lasted 4 or 5 years. I doubt Serena would win over a third too with both in their primes since Henin still wins every clay meeting and that is already a third of the matches if they are evenly distributed, and since Henin would win some on hard courts it would be almost a tie even with both in their primes.

Anyway it doesnt matter though. Henin gave up any chance to be the best of her generation by quitting when she hadnt yet quite surpassed Serena in slam wins although quickly closing the gap, and having not yet completed the career slam. Thus the only answer is Serena.

How do you say that? 4-5 years? When Sharapova was beating her in slam finals in 2006 and Myskina was winning the French in 2004? I'm sorry, but 2007 was Henin's prime year.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:21 PM
It is a tough call but I edge Serena over Henin. Sure in Serena's peak she beat Henin and vice versa and their head to head is close. However last time I checked Serena had 10 slams..Henin had 7. Serena has one on every surface..Henin does not. Henin has more titles but Serena has the better winning percentage..Henin has more tour final championships..Serena has more tier 1...Henin has more #1 years..Serena has more top 10 years..

You can go backand forth I edge Serena on the sole fact that if you put the two I feel at their best I see Serena winning on three surfaces, hard, grass, indoor and Henin only winning on grass. Achievement wise right now they are close but Serena can still change that if she continues to work at it. Henin quit too early but she looked like she was on a down, Serena has been down for a while due to her own bad habits and is still coming through

I like this post best.

Guru
06-23-2009, 10:23 PM
Hingis was a flash in the pan.

Flash in the pan :-? She made 12 Grand Slam finals and won five
and she won 43 singles titles as well as two WTA championships.

chrisdaniel
06-23-2009, 10:23 PM
hard to rate 3 major winner over a 5 major winner.



Kinda like hard to rate a 7 time grand slam winner over a 10 time slam winner ???

I don't know, there are cases in both sides I guess, but I still choose Serena in this poll

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 10:24 PM
19-6 Henin? WTF? I could see Henin winning on these boards, but 19 to 6? Come on people.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:24 PM
How do you say that? 4-5 years? When Sharapova was beating her in slam finals in 2006 and Myskina was winning the French in 2004? I'm sorry, but 2007 was Henin's prime year.

So if you dont win everything you arent in your prime. That is ******** logic. As has already been noted one of Serena's edges is Henin was never as dominant as Serena the 18 month period of 2002-mid 2003. So she had a fluke loss at the French in 2004, she still won the Australian and Olympics that year, the year in 2003 before that the French and U.S Open, 2006 was in all 4 slam finals and won the WTA Championships, then her 2007 year of course. Sharapova has beaten Serena too in a slam final, even more badly than she did Henin and Maria was only 17 then, your point? Maria isnt at the level of Serena, Henin, or even Venus yet but she has 3 slam titles at only 21. She isnt some chump and has the potential of beating anyone on a given day.

I would say Henin's prime was spring 2003-end of 2007. So she had a longer prime than Serena IMO. I already said I rated Serena tops over Henin all things considered, and was one of the only 6 to vote for your beloved hero so far so get off your high horse.

Grass_for_cows
06-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Henin did not shriek like a pig.
Henin did not fist pump after every single point won.
Henin did not said she was the real number 1 (while se was #2) and lost at the first round in her next match (boy that was funny).
.

It wasn't so funny when she cheated on important points and also cheated Mauresmo of a sporting win. Serena may get on some people's nerves, but she has always played fairly and honestly. Henin is by far the more despicable player, and besides Bartoli owns her.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:26 PM
Flash in the pan :-? She made 12 Grand Slam finals and won five
and she won 43 singles titles as well as two WTA championships.

hingis was probably more talented than both but such a flake at points she should have 10+slams easily

Guru
06-23-2009, 10:27 PM
Stop staying false facts.

There is the true restults of those 5-2 time you talk about.
4 were slams but there was never 5 in a row.


Check it out for yourself...

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~9044~3541,00.html

Five wins in a row for Henin and four came in Grand Slams

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 10:27 PM
If Henin's so great, how'd she lose 3 slam finals in 2006? 2 to Mauresmo and 1 to Sharapova. I'm sorry, but Henin's getting a bit overrated on here. In one of her best seasons, she lost in 3 of the 4 slam finals. In Serena's best season, she won 3 slams and 5 of 6 slams. Serena at her best is better than Henin at her best, no question to me.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:29 PM
Check it out for yourself...

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/HeadToHead/0,,12781~9044~3541,00.html

Five wins in a row for Henin and four came in Grand Slams

lmao you are so stupid.

1 (1) 2003WIMBLEDONGRASSSS.WILLIAMS6-3 6-23 (3)
1 (1) 2003FRENCH OPENCLAYSJ. HENIN6-2 4-6 7-54 (4)
1 (1) 2003CHARLESTONCLAYFJ. HENIN6-3 6-44 (2)
8 (8) 2007FRENCH OPENCLAYQJ. HENIN6-4 6-31 (1)
9 (8) 2007US OPENHARDQJ. HENIN7-6(3) 6-11 (1)
8 (7) 2007WIMBLEDONGRASSQJ. HENIN6-4 3-6 6-31 (1)
18 (13) 2007MIAMIHARDFS.WILLIAMS0-6 7-5 6-31 (

LOL DO YOU LOOK AT EVENTS.

So in 2003 wimbledon came after the french open? they just reworked the schedule...

oh yea miami the spring hardcourt major came after all 3 majors of the year. Once again wimbledon came after the US Open...charelston a lead up clay event is also after the french open.... man I posted the head to head with dates lol..now you have made my day. >.> I am supposed to trust your tennis opinion yet you obviously don't even know how the yearly schedule works.. let me help you

French
Wimbledon
US Open... got that, it's kind of the order the slams have been for oh the past century.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST CLAIMED. It is obvious the WTA site is screwed up there.. do you read these matches >.> go do some research..look up the dates of those events and than come back and you will realize the most Henin won in a row was 3.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:30 PM
If Henin's so great, how'd she lose 3 slam finals in 2006? 2 to Mauresmo and 1 to Sharapova. I'm sorry, but Henin's getting a bit overrated on here. In one of her best seasons, she lost in 3 of the 4 slam finals. In Serena's best season, she won 3 slams and 5 of 6 slams. Serena at her best is better than Henin at her best, no question to me.

So before 2006 wasnt part of Henin's prime and now it is. Make up your mind atleast. You want to deny my comment of Henin having a longer prime by cutting it to only 2007, then turn around and mock her losses in 2006 while calling it one of her best seasons. By the way if you are now stepping back and giving 2006 as being part of Henin's prime than 2003 was also part of it as it was a better year for her than 2006, so in your attempt to demean her you already have to award her a triple longer prime than your initial 1 year minimization. Your sig is a joke btw. You only wish the man in your username had the talent to tie Safin's shoelaces.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:31 PM
So before 2006 wasnt part of Henin's prime and now it is. Make up your mind atleast. You want to discredit Henin having a longer prime by cutting it to only 2007, then mock her losses in 2006 and calling it one of her best seasons. By the way if you are now stepping back and giving 2006 as being part of Henin's prime than 2003 was also part of it as it was a better year for her than 2006, so in your attempt to demean her you already have to award her a triple longer prime than your initial 1 year minimization. Your sig is a joke btw. You only wish the man in your username had the talent to tie Safin's shoelaces.


Prime for Henin 02-08
Prime for Serena 00-present

Peak for Henin 03, 05-07
Peak for Serena 02-04

case end and point. at least imo.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:35 PM
Prime for Henin 02-08
Prime for Serena 00-present

Peak for Henin 03, 05-07
Peak for Serena 02-04

case end and point. at least imo.

Actually differentiating prime and peak is a good idea. Since you put it that way I would say:

Prime for Henin 2003-2007
Prime for Serena 1999-2004, 2007-present

Peak for Henin spring 2003-spring 2004, 2006, 2007
Peak for Serena march 2002-August 2003

So put that way I would say Serena has a longer prime and Henin a longer peak, but Serena's peak was still higher, and might have been longer without the injury, although Henin's too would have gone longer without her viral in Spring 2004 so both had setbacks I guess. I couldnt count 2002 as even part of Henin's rough prime though. She was such a totally different player then, being owned still by way past her prime Seles, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters (all whom she would start owning in 2003 onwards), and even the likes of Hantuchova and Dokic, LOL!

egn
06-23-2009, 10:39 PM
Actually differentiating prime and peak is a good idea. Since you put it that way I would say:

Prime for Henin 2003-2007
Prime for Serena 1999-2004, 2007-present

Peak for Henin 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007
Peak for Serena 2002, 2003

So put that way I would say Serena has a longer prime and Henin a longer peak, but Serena's peak was still higher. I couldnt count 2002 as even part of Henin's rough prime. She was such a totally different player then, being owned still by way past her prime Seles, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters (all whom she would start owning in 2003 onwards), and even the likes of Hantuchova and Dokic, LOL!

I would only count 2002 as she had established herself similar to Serena in 99 but was still suffering a few early losses. Serena should be thankful that Henin lost so early in 2002 french open or it would probably be henin's today. I would not think of 2004 as peak for Henin or 2005 when I come to think of it both were average years and I would have to at least mention 05 as a prime serena just she did win a slam even if she did not participate so much.

Guru
06-23-2009, 10:40 PM
lmao you are so stupid.

Calm down :lol: theres no need to cry about it

Makes no difference either way because Henin still beat her in four slams
doesn't matter what dates they all happend.

now you have made my day

Then you must be having a pretty bad day if that's what gets you excited.

If Henin's so great, how'd she lose 3 slam finals in 2006?

If Serena's so great then why didn't she win them ?
Henin made the finals of those three Slam while Serena was doing what :confused:

egn
06-23-2009, 10:42 PM
Calm down :lol: theres no need to cry about it

Makes no difference either way because Henin still beat her in four slams
doesn't matter what dates they all happend.


Good than Serena leads the head to head 7-6 as after all it does not matter what dates it happened


Then you must be having a pretty bad day if that's what gets you excited.


Well my day has been going for about an hour and 50 minutes so nothing really exciting has happened and I don't see anything exciting happened as it will consist of a trip to the bank and work.


If Serena's so great then why didn't she win them ?
Henin made the finals of those three Slam while Serena was doing what :confused:

probably attempting to be some fashion star or some other stupid serena williams activity.

hewittboy
06-23-2009, 10:44 PM
I would only count 2002 as she had established herself similar to Serena in 99 but was still suffering a few early losses. Serena should be thankful that Henin lost so early in 2002 french open or it would probably be henin's today. I would not think of 2004 as peak for Henin or 2005 when I come to think of it both were average years and I would have to at least mention 05 as a prime serena just she did win a slam even if she did not participate so much.

Fair enough. We will have to agree to disagree a bit on 2002 though. Like I said she was still owned by so many top players (not even talking the Williams here) who she quickly began to own in 2003 for the rest of her career it just seems night and day to me almost. Also her 2001 in many ways was alot better than her 2002. I see what you are saying though. I also agree she was a contender for the French in 2002, but in 2001 she was too I think. Had she not choked away that semfinal which she had all but wrapped up vs Kim I am not sure Jen is the champ that year, especialy when she couldnt even beat Henin on grass a month later. Henin is so far and away the best player of this generation on clay (the way the Williams both are on grass) that she probably had some shot of winning not only non-peak but even non-prime years.

I corrected my peak years for Henin some. You are right that in 2004 she wasnt the same after Indian Wells. Basically illness took Henin down somewhat until the start of 2006, just like injury took Serena down after Wimbledon 2003. Bad luck for both really.

Yeah good point on the 2005 Aussie. I had forgotten that briefly. Although she sucked royally the rest of the year for Serena standards it was a slam win so should count that as a prime year too. So yeah I guess 2006 was Serena's only non prime year since 1999 if we distinguish peak from prime. Pretty incredibly lately, even if her peak wasnt as long as some would wish from such a great player.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 10:45 PM
I was putting 2006 as her 2nd best behind 2007, b/c she made the finals of all 4 slams. But I see why you put 2003 as her 2nd best, seeing as how she won the French and USO that yr.

But most forget, Serena had won 5 of 6 GS in 2003, before she was put out by the knee injury and had to miss the USO, which Henin won. Serena was really never the same player after the knee injury in 2003. Despite this, she's still been able to win 4 slams since then and make it back to #1 in the world. You have to say that Serena's knee injury had at least some part in Henin being able to win the US Open in 03 and Australian Open in 04.

egn
06-23-2009, 10:47 PM
I was putting 2006 as her 2nd best behind 2007, b/c she made the finals of all 4 slams. But I see why you put 2003 as her 2nd best, seeing as how she won the French and USO that yr.

But most forget, Serena had won 5 of 6 GS in 2003, before she was put out by the knee injury and had to miss the USO, which Henin won. Serena was really never the same player after the knee injury in 2003. Despite this, she's still been able to win 4 slams since then and make it back to #1 in the world. You have to say that Serena's knee injury had at least some part in Henin being able to win the US Open in 03 and Australian Open in 04.

However Henin oddly enough missed all the slams Serena has won since she came back...05, 07, 09 Aussie and the 08 US open..though I admit the most recent Henin would have not won it is safe to say she was a heavy favorite for at least the 05 and 07 Aussie.

Guru
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
Good than Serena leads the head to head 7-6
as after all it does not matter what dates it happened

She has the winning record but Henin won when it mattered the most
winning in Miami and Rome is all good but winning at the French Open means more
so it's 4-2 where it matters most.

probably attempting to be some fashion star
or some other stupid serena williams activity

Maybe, who knows what the sisters where doing back then
if i remember right (and i might not) didn't Venus get knocked out by Jankovic
at Wimbledon when Muresmo won the title back in 06 ?

By the way size is another thing to take on board
Serena and Venus are much taller and heavier than Henin
they where both born with more physical advantages.

grafselesfan
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
You have to say that Serena's knee injury had at least some part in Henin being able to win the US Open in 03 and Australian Open in 04.

If you want to play that game one could say Serena has won all 4 of her slams since 2003 Wimbledon now with Henin not in the field. That is right, Serena hasnt won a slam in 6 years with Henin in the field. While she cant do anything about that now with Henin retired she failed from the 2004 French to the 2008 Australian Open to win even a single slam with Henin and her both in the field. Her only 2 slams between Wimbledon 2003- U.S Open 2008 were Aussie Opens Henin didnt even play. Sorry if we want to play that what if game it would give Henin even more leverage than Serena.

Your signature is ridiculous. Henin and Safin the two most overrated players in the game!?! You already are a fool just for having a byline like that.

grafselesfan
06-23-2009, 10:59 PM
I would have to go with Serena. Her overall achievements simply surpass Henin. 10 slams to 7, the career slam, the non calender slam. I think Henin could easily have taken the title of best of her generation had she not retired, but she did so that is her own loss, or gain if it is what makes her happy and she is at peace with what she is potentialy giving away by retiring at 25 in which case good for her. Being happy is what is most important in life, just like in tennis. Of course Serena probably could have won 20 slams already if she worked the way Graf and Navratilova did. Her sheer talent level and athletic ability stacks up to any women in history, but she doesnt always have the commitment to maximize it fully. What if games could go on forever.

egn
06-23-2009, 11:00 PM
Your signature is ridiculous. Henin and Safin the two most overrated players in the game!?! You already are a fool just for having a byline like that.

>.> I did not even notice that..I can think of a good portion of women and men more overrated than Safin and Henin...Henin is not overrated >,< the race between her and serena is tight...you can seriously argue every element of this.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 11:00 PM
We don't need to play what ifs, just what is. 10 slams to 7, 7-6 h2h, Henin won 84% of her slam matches while Serena's won 86%. Career slam to no Wimbledon title. To me, Serena gets the edge over Henin.

And I'm sorry, but 21 votes to 8 is overrating her, IMO.

egn
06-23-2009, 11:01 PM
I would have to go with Serena. Her overall achievements simply surpass Henin. 10 slams to 7, the career slam, the non calender slam. I think Henin could easily have taken the title of best of her generation had she not retired, but she did so that is her own loss, or gain if it is what makes her happy and she is at peace with what she is potentialy giving away by retiring at 25 in which case good for her. Being happy is what is most important in life, just like in tennis. Of course Serena probably could have won 20 slams already if she worked the way Graf and Navratilova did. Her sheer talent level and athletic ability stacks up to any women in history, but she doesnt always have the commitment to maximize it fully. What if games could go on forever.

exacto mundo =]

egn
06-23-2009, 11:03 PM
We don't need to play what ifs, just what is. 10 slams to 7, 7-6 h2h, Henin won 84% of her slam matches while Serena's won 86%. Career slam to no Wimbledon title. To me, Serena gets the edge over Henin.

And I'm sorry, but 21 votes to 8 is overrating her, IMO.

Remember a personal opinion on a player plays huge weight and the fact is Serena acts like an ***..people are not going to like her..you will support the player who does not make a fool of herself on a general basis. Face it character judgment always comes into play. I would not be suprised if Venus had Serena's achievements that the poll would be much closer..I think the Venus Henin poll was actually closer would have to look, but personality is going to play a huge aspect. Stay calm 20 years from now Serena will get the edge because she will still be loud enough to talk about herself.

grafselesfan
06-23-2009, 11:07 PM
>.> I did not even notice that..I can think of a good portion of women and men more overrated than Safin and Henin...Henin is not overrated >,< the race between her and serena is tight...you can seriously argue every element of this.

Oh I can easily think of many people more overrated than both. As for Safin he is one of the most talented 2 time slam winners ever, he beat two of the greatest players of all time in amazing performancs to win his 2 slams!

Players more overrated than Henin easily: Capriati, Sabatini, Sharapova, Safina, Dementieva, Petrova, Pierce, Jaeger

Players more overrated than Safin easily: Gasquet, Berdych, Monfils, Nalbandian, Moya, Philippoussis, Rios, Ancic

I am sure there are alot of others too

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 11:14 PM
Stay calm 20 years from now Serena will get the edge because she will still be loud enough to talk about herself.

Haha true, true. :)

Like I said earlier, Serena's a bad sport- never gives opponents who beat her credit, disowning Safina as #1, etc. But I guess I don't allow that to cloud judgement, that 10 slams > 7 slams. Plus, like I said, most people liked Henin's "classic" game, and decry the smash and bash of today's WTA "Serena, Sharapova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Safina, etc) So that clouds judgement in favor of Henin, which is unfortunate.

As for my sig, just my opinion after seeing Safin treated as if he could've won 10+ slams and people treating Henin as the Navrilatalova of this generation, saying stuff like "since Henin left, WTA sucks" That sorta stuff rubs me the wrong way, since I actually have nothing against women's game by and large. But hey, that's another discussion for another day.

EtePras
06-23-2009, 11:15 PM
Serena is the talented player, while Justine Henin was the workhorse who could not win without being 100% committed to the sport. She knew this, so she retired when she lost the intensity.

joeri888
06-23-2009, 11:17 PM
Serena. Serena > Henin. End of story. Those are the 2 logical choices, w/ Venus @ 3rd.

I rate Henin's level of play higher than Serena's. Also, I like her attitude much better.

royer
06-23-2009, 11:18 PM
It wasn't so funny when she cheated on important points and also cheated Mauresmo of a sporting win. Serena may get on some people's nerves, but she has always played fairly and honestly. Henin is by far the more despicable player, and besides Bartoli owns her.

Yup! I agree.

Say what you will about Serena, but Henin's sportsmanship and integrity leave MUCH to be desired as well! I won't go so far as to call her a cheater, but her "less-than-honest" actions (French Open vs. Serena) and her total flake-out against Mauresmo at The Australian, leave a bad taste in my mouth. Never liked a quitter!

I know the poll is not about "personality," it's about "skill." That's why I picked Serena. I believe that she is (overall) the better player. BUT, when people throw stones at Serena for her personality (deservedly so I'll admit), make sure you hurl a few Henin's way as well!

Polaris
06-23-2009, 11:26 PM
Serena Williams, Hingis and Henin and Venus are all in the conversation.

If Serena had been more focussed on her tennis, she could have approached Graf's mountain of Grand Slams.

Bloodshed
06-23-2009, 11:33 PM
I think it goes down to one thing. Serena has the career slam. If this is enough to put Federer over Sampras (in some's minds), why is it not enough in this case? Besides the fact, 10 slams to 7?

Serena has the career slam just because her sister let her win on purpose just like every script match they play once they are vs each other. (Dementieva seems to think so as well)

Sure most people will think they give their all but in the end it's just a WWF match that they do. (US 08 is a great example how bad their matches are scripted).

But the fact that 10 GS > 7GS still puts her over Henin even if I hate to admit that.

Bloodshed
06-23-2009, 11:37 PM
Yup! I agree.

Say what you will about Serena, but Henin's sportsmanship and integrity leave MUCH to be desired as well! I won't go so far as to call her a cheater, but her "less-than-honest" actions (French Open vs. Serena) and her total flake-out against Mauresmo at The Australian, leave a bad taste in my mouth. Never liked a quitter!

I know the poll is not about "personality," it's about "skill." That's why I picked Serena. I believe that she is (overall) the better player. BUT, when people throw stones at Serena for her personality (deservedly so I'll admit), make sure you hurl a few Henin's way as well!

Henin's sportsmanship is miles ahead of Serena's stupid shrieking to intimidate opponents or her awful post conferences after she loses.

jamesblakefan#1
06-23-2009, 11:41 PM
Serena has the career slam just because her sister let her win on purpose just like every script match they play once they are vs each other. (Dementieva seems to think so as well)

Proof or it didn't happen. This has been said time and time again, no proof other than needless hearsay and conspiracy theories. First it was their matches are never close, then they had close matches last yr at Wimbledon and USO. So what proof do you have? None, exactly. So leave that kinda talk to the side.

Dutch-Guy
06-24-2009, 01:46 AM
Henin owned Serena most of her career
No.h2h Serena leads 7-6.
and would've surpassed Serena if she stayed dedicated to the sport.
lmao N_F.Isn't Serena the one who always has been accused of not being dedicated to sport? Image what a fit,healthy,dedicated to tennis Serena 'd have done to Henin? Still remember the "Serena Slam" (mid 2002-early 2003)?
Henin never dominated the tour like that.

Leublu tennis
06-24-2009, 01:52 AM
deleted
15chars

Dutch-Guy
06-24-2009, 02:09 AM
Henin's sportsmanship is miles ahead of Serena's stupid shrieking to intimidate opponents or her awful post conferences after she loses.

Henin's sportmanship? Do you still remember the "hand incident" against Serena at the FO 03 and the let down against Maursemo at the AO?

P_Agony
06-24-2009, 02:11 AM
Henin for me was the Federer of the WTA tour. Very stylish game, and a big domination, plus a 1-handed backhand.

I choose Henin even though she retired too quickly. I want her back.

Cesc Fabregas
06-24-2009, 02:39 AM
Serena Williams is the right answer.

Underhand
06-24-2009, 02:49 AM
15chars

What's this, inflation?

chrisdaniel
06-24-2009, 02:57 AM
Serena is so underrated here

Dutch-Guy
06-24-2009, 03:16 AM
Serena 10 slams >>>Henin 7 slams
Serena has more Tier I titles than Henin.
Serena took her losses like a (wo)man :) while Henin cowardly "fled" where she repeatedly got her *** spanked.

Giggs The Red Devil
06-24-2009, 03:25 AM
Serena. But still, half of Graf > Double Serena.

Guru
06-24-2009, 06:20 AM
Most people seem to be saying Serena was better
yet the poll is over onesided in Henin's favour :neutral:

What about Martina Hingis ?
Her record against Serena was 6-7 and her record against Venus is 11-10
she also knocked them both out of the Australian Open back in 2001.

cknobman
06-24-2009, 06:24 AM
Skill wise it would be Henin all the way.

Serena wins more off her power than anything else.

I dont think its a huge gap but I still think Henin > Serena.

Grass_for_cows
06-24-2009, 06:49 AM
What about Martina Hingis ?
Her record against Serena was 6-7 and her record against Venus is 11-10
she also knocked them both out of the Australian Open back in 2001.

I agree that she is underrated, although I believe she definitely belongs below Serena on the ladder. Hingis had such great hands and balance, it was pure joy to watch her play. I voted Serena for obvious reasons, but Hingis was my favorite player to watch in the WTA.

Grass_for_cows
06-24-2009, 06:52 AM
Serena 10 slams >>>Henin 7 slams
Serena has more Tier I titles than Henin.
Serena took her losses like a (wo)man :) while Henin cowardly "fled" where she repeatedly got her *** spanked.

I agree with this post. Hard to argue with real numbers and evidence. Want to add: as much as Serena may not capture the ideal of femininity, she still looks much much more womanly than Henin. Serena is an unattractive woman, but that only makes her average in the WTA, and should not detract from her status us the best in the world at women's tennis.

grafrules
06-24-2009, 07:07 AM
Serena has the career slam just because her sister let her win on purpose just like every script match they play once they are vs each other. (Dementieva seems to think so as well)

I agree Venus has handed Serena some gift slams on a silver platter- 2008 U.S Open most notably. However the only slam Serena hasnt won multiple times is the French Open. Serena is a much better clay courter than Venus, Venus ever being in a French Open final was a miracle upon itself. Venus was never going to beat Serena in that match, so Serena was always going to have the career slam regardless. If Henin hadnt had a leg injury and been upset 1st round though it is quite possible Serena doesnt have the career slam any longer.

grafrules
06-24-2009, 07:08 AM
lmao N_F.Isn't Serena the one who always has been accused of not being dedicated to sport? Image what a fit,healthy,dedicated to tennis Serena 'd have done to Henin? Still remember the "Serena Slam" (mid 2002-early 2003)?


In 2003 when Henin was just starting to come into her own, this peak Serena of 2003 you refer to lost 2 out of 3 matches to Henin.

zagor
06-24-2009, 07:11 AM
Serena clearly has a better career,no question about it.I would watch Henin play over Serena any day of the week though,WTA is pretty much crap for me without her.

royer
06-24-2009, 08:33 AM
Henin's sportsmanship is miles ahead of Serena's stupid shrieking to intimidate opponents or her awful post conferences after she loses.

Your opinion is your opinion. But, to reiterate, cheating and quitting put no one "miles ahead" of someone else when it comes to sportsmanship. At least Serena isn't known as a quitter! Say what you will, but a quitter is the lowest of the low in my book!

TheNatural
06-24-2009, 08:37 AM
Henin was the best for a few years, but Serena is the best since Graf.

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-24-2009, 08:42 AM
...and would've surpassed Serena if she stayed dedicated to the sport...

...so does this mean she was not dedicated when she bailed like a coward with her fake illness against Mauresmo in th AO final? Mauresmo was schooling Henin, and Henin bailed with the still controversial (fake) illness excuse.


Oh, and I guess she was not dedicated when Bartoli convincingly booted her out of Wimbledon (as though Henin did not care about the tournament title that was never meant to be hers)?

T1000
06-24-2009, 08:44 AM
serena williams

DRII
06-24-2009, 08:46 AM
Who's the best female player since Steffi Graf ?

"the best" can mean different things. I personally feel Venus Williams at her best beats anyone else, at their best, on any given day. She has the most pace, one of the heaviest balls off the ground and off the serve, shes the best mover and most athletic woman tennis player in modern history. Now thats when shes playing her best, which was the summer of 2001. Her Wimbeldon and US Open performances of that year were the most dominant I have ever seen from anyone in the WTA.

However, she clearly is not the most consistent. Serena has proven to be more reliable on more surfaces. And Justine Henin problably had the most pure talent of any of the modern day women players. And who knows what Seles would have done is she were not stabbed. Also Lindsay Davenport deserves a nod for hitting the cleanest hardest ball in tennis.

But my vote would be Venus.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 08:49 AM
38-17 Henin? This is ridiculous. I guess to be expected on a board that hates Serena and loves Henin so much.

Cesc Fabregas
06-24-2009, 08:55 AM
38-17 Henin? This is ridiculous. I guess to be expected on a board that hates Serena and loves Henin so much.

Looking at your sig you hate Henin.

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-24-2009, 08:57 AM
38-17 Henin? This is ridiculous. I guess to be expected on a board that hates Serena and loves Henin so much.

Exactly. Hate fuels this poll, certainly not facts.

Gorecki
06-24-2009, 09:00 AM
it's a toss up between the 2 biggest pansies in this game's story... Fed and Nad

navratilovafan
06-24-2009, 09:00 AM
1. Serena
2. Justine
3. Venus
4. Hingis
5. Davenport

Is the correct order of the 2000s decade players.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 09:03 AM
I don't hate Henin, just tired of so many saying stuff like "since Henin left WTA, I stopped watching". Maybe it's me, but I don't like people saying that kinda stuff when there's still plenty of good young players out there.

lambielspins
06-24-2009, 09:08 AM
I don't hate Henin, just tired of so many saying stuff like "since Henin left WTA, I stopped watching". Maybe it's me, but I don't like people saying that kinda stuff when there's still plenty of good young players out there.

The WTA sucks with or without Henin these days. There are you happier. :) Who the heck are these good young players you refer to? A bunch of choking slamless wannabees I bet.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 09:14 AM
Wozniacki, Azarenka, Cirstea, Radwanska. Most people say stuff like that w/o even giving it a chance.

Mauresmo was a choking slamless wannabe I guess until she beat...Henin to win two slams. So give these players time. I guess it's to be expected tho, since Sampras fans probably stopped watching when he retired.

zagor
06-24-2009, 09:15 AM
38-17 Henin? This is ridiculous. I guess to be expected on a board that hates Serena and loves Henin so much.

Look,the polls on this site are mostly joke.Obviously many people prefer Henin's game to Serena's hence the poll results but it doesn't change the fact that Serena has a better career,it's not even a contest.Henin is my favourite player of all time but it's stupid to say she's greater than Serena,she clearly isn't.

lambielspins
06-24-2009, 09:16 AM
Wozniacki, Azarenka, Cirstea, Radwanska. Most people say stuff like that w/o even giving it a chance.

Mauresmo was a choking slamless wannabe I guess until she beat...Henin to win two slams. So give these players time. I guess it's to be expected tho, since Sampras fans probably stopped watching when he retired.

Those players you mentioned havent even been to a slam semifinal yet for crying out loud. Those are your young players people should be getting excited about and stop talking about past greats, ROTFL! Mauresmo wasnt that good anyway but atleast she reached a slam final when she was only 19, beating then World #1 Davenport in the semis to do so.

lambielspins
06-24-2009, 09:17 AM
Look,the polls on this site are mostly joke.Obviously many people prefer Henin's game to Serena's hence the poll results but it doesn't change the fact that Serena has a better career,it's not even a contest.Henin is my favourite player of all time but it's stupid to say she's greater than Serena,she clearly isn't.

While I agree Serena overall had the greater career one thing to remember is Henin was clearly a better player than Serena from 2004-2007. That is 4 straight years which is a pretty long time.

zagor
06-24-2009, 09:21 AM
While I agree Serena overall had the greater career one thing to remember is Henin was clearly a better player than Serena from 2004-2007. That is 4 straight years which is a pretty long time.

Yes,agree with that but if look at their careers,it's just not close for me.Serena-10 slams with a career slam(or Serena slam because it was in a row),Henin-7 without winning the most prestigious slam.Where is Henin's edge in that? I just don't see it.I wouldn't care even if her H2H with Serena was 15-0 overall,she just can't match Serena's results.

Henin could have overtaken Serena if she stayed and was motivated,it's her own fault she left even though she was owning Serena in 2007.If Henin was playing in her 2007 form right now,she would be picking up slams left and right but she left,that's just the way it is.

grafrules
06-24-2009, 09:24 AM
Henin in her 2007 form would probably have won 3 or 4 of the last 5 slams, but Henin wasnt in her 2007 form in early 2008 to begin with.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 09:28 AM
Those players you mentioned havent even been to a slam semifinal yet for crying out loud. Those are your young players people should be getting excited about and stop talking about past greats, ROTFL! Mauresmo wasnt that good anyway but atleast she reached a slam final when she was only 19, beating then World #1 Davenport in the semis to do so.

You've gotta give people time to develop. Safina was looked at as a lost cause before her breakthru at the French last yr, now she's #1 in the world. So just give it time, and new stars will emerge. Everyone can't be Seles, you know. But all the players I mentioned have shown signs of having the right stuff and have big wins in their careers. So don't just write them off.

Gorecki
06-24-2009, 09:32 AM
The WTA sucks with or without Henin these days. There are you happier. :) Who the heck are these good young players you refer to? A bunch of choking slamless wannabees I bet.

if he was talking about shizuka arakawa and irina ****skaya you would probaly have heard of... but since he was talking about tennis players...

lambielspins
06-24-2009, 09:33 AM
You've gotta give people time to develop. Safina was looked at as a lost cause before her breakthru at the French last yr, now she's #1 in the world. So just give it time, and new stars will emerge. Everyone can't be Seles, you know. But all the players I mentioned have shown signs of having the right stuff and have big wins in their careers. So don't just write them off.

All Safina does it choke away all her big finals, put on some kind of embarassing freak show each time she is in a big match. A slamless #1 at only 24 years old in the worst field in womens tennis history. She is looking like someone who could set a new all time record for worst record in slam finals ever, and doing it even amongst the worst field ever. So if those players you mention could someday become a Safina that is hardly cause for enthusiasm. The embarassment of Safina at #1 only serves as another benchmark to why people long for any past players of even reasonable substance to return and bolster the field.

I think a reason some people are voting for Henin over Serena is simple. Serena her injury in mid 2003 has fallen off drastically in both quality of play and fitness. She had won only 2 slams in a 5 year span since then. She is all of a sudden starting to win slams again, 3 of the last 9, while not improving her play or fitness any from what it had dropped down to. In other words in many of her recent slams to bolster her career tally she has lucked out to be well past her prime, not recovering any of her old form, and only starting to win more again because of the field collapsing around her- Henin retiring, Clisjters retiring early, Venus even more washed up than Serena, Maria toast with injuries. The people you mentioned are clowns until proven otherwise, sorry.

zagor
06-24-2009, 09:42 AM
All Safina does it choke away all her big finals, put on some kind of embarassing freak show each time she is in a big match. A slamless #1 at only 24 years old in the worst field in womens tennis history. She is looking like someone who could set a new all time record for worst record in slam finals ever, and doing it even amongst the worst field ever. So if those players you mention could someday become a Safina that is hardly cause for enthusiasm. The embarassment of Safina at #1 only serves as another benchmark to why people long for any past players of even reasonable substance to return and bolster the field.

I think a reason some people are voting for Henin over Serena is simple. Serena her injury in mid 2003 has fallen off drastically in both quality of play and fitness. She had won only 2 slams in a 5 year span since then. She is all of a sudden starting to win slams again, 3 of the last 9, while not improving her play or fitness any from what it had dropped down to. In other words in many of her recent slams to bolster her career tally she has lucked out to be well past her prime, not recovering any of her old form, and only starting to win more again because of the field collapsing around her- Henin retiring, Clisjters retiring early, Venus even more washed up than Serena, Maria toast with injuries. The people you mentioned are clowns until proven otherwise, sorry.

Again,Serena might be taking advantage of the sucky field but what stopped Henin from hanging around and doing the same? Serena can only play whomever is in front of her and at the end of the day her numbers blow Henin's numbers away.Plus she's very likely to add to her slam tally before she retires while Henin has finished her career.

julesb
06-24-2009, 10:13 AM
Nobody. They all suck. There isnt a player today who even rates top 50 all time. What a bunch of losers.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Nobody. They all suck. There isnt a player today who even rates top 50 all time. What a bunch of losers.

I thought you said Jankovic would own Graf. What happened to that great idea?

Gorecki
06-24-2009, 10:49 AM
Nobody. They all suck. There isnt a player today who even rates top 50 all time. What a bunch of losers.


I thought you said Jankovic would own Graf. What happened to that great idea?

http://banardices.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/owned2.jpg

Claudius
06-24-2009, 10:52 AM
http://banardices.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/owned2.jpg

hahahahahahaa

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-24-2009, 11:12 AM
I thought you said Jankovic would own Graf. What happened to that great idea?

...probably following Jankovic's career down the same toilet.

julesb
06-24-2009, 11:21 AM
I like Jelena but she is dissapointing me now by not playing the great tennis she is capable of. Her best tennis is clearly better than the most overrated female player ever- Steffi knife champion Graf, everyone with a brain knows that.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 11:24 AM
I like Jelena but she is dissapointing me now by not playing the great tennis she is capable of. Her best tennis is clearly better than the most overrated female player ever- Steffi knife champion Graf, everyone with a brain knows that.

So Graf's not in your top 50 then?

http://www.fallen-legion.eu/news/data/upimages/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

julesb
06-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Graf won almost all her slams beating women in their 30s, women who were 15 years old, women who were stabbed with a knife, or moonballers like Sanchez and Sabatini. No she is not top 50 all time, anyone who thinks she is when almost all her wins were a joke is a fool.

Claudius
06-24-2009, 11:28 AM
I like Jelena but she is dissapointing me now by not playing the great tennis she is capable of. Her best tennis is clearly better than the most overrated female player ever- Steffi knife champion Graf, everyone with a brain knows that.

You have lost all credibility by saying Graf isn't top 50. Don't tell me you never said that because you did. Don't post anything about women's tennis again.

julesb
06-24-2009, 11:34 AM
Graf is an overrated loser. Look at who her slams came against:

87 French- women who turned 31 later that year on her worst surface
88 Australian- 33 year old women
88 French- some bum in her only slam final, Zvereva was her name.
88 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
88 U.S Open- Gabriela Flakeatini
89 Australian- some clumsy tall storkish lady who lost all 4 of her slam finals, Sukova was her name.
89 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
89 U.S Open- women who turned 32 later that year
90 Australian- some skinny bulimic looking teenager in her first slam final, who would lose all 3 of her slam finals in her career- Mary Joe Ferandez
91 Wimbledon- Gabriela Flakeatini who choked serving for it
92 Wimbledon- Seles on grass only because Seles couldnt grunt and she sucks on grass anyway- by far her worst surface
93 French- that same bulmic chick who went 0-3 in slam finals
93 Wimbledon- Jana choke Novotna
93 U.S Open- Sukova the stork again
94 Australian- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with tendonitis in her knee. Still only won because of bad line call in first set.
96 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with terrible shoulder injury.
99 French- the crowd won her this one

Claudius
06-24-2009, 11:35 AM
name 50 players who are better than Graf

Oh.dear God.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry, I was too busy counting to 22 to read your bs reasoning and dumb logic.

Dutch-Guy
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
In 2003 when Henin was just starting to come into her own, this peak Serena of 2003 you refer to lost 2 out of 3 matches to Henin.

Serena was at her peak between may 2002-februari 2003.After that things started to go downhill for her.
Anyhow she annihilated Henin last year 6-2,6-0 in Miami.And Henin was at her peak...

flying24
06-24-2009, 11:55 AM
Serena was at her peak between may 2002-februari 2003.After that things started to go downhill for her.
Anyhow she annihilated Henin last year 6-2,6-0 in Miami.And Henin was at her peak...

Another clueless poster. You are a complete idiot if you think Henin was still at her peak in 2008. As well Serena was most definitely at her peak all of 2003 until her injury and still lost 2 out of 3 times to Henin who was just starting to be a champion then. She also lost to Henin 2002 when Henin was a nobody. Arent you the one who thinks Kuznetsova won the French only because she played great and nothing to do with the fact Safina basically gave her the match. So many clueless posters on TW these days.

JeMar
06-24-2009, 11:57 AM
Henin owns Serena.

lol, what?

Henin has one more slam, but Serena has all four in the bag, along with multiple doubles majors, as well as Olympic gold. Serena also has the lead in their head to head. Oh, and she didn't flame out at 25.

Now, I much prefer Justine's demeanor and style to Serena, who I find to be practically unwatchable, but Serena's had a much better career than Justine.

flying24
06-24-2009, 12:00 PM
lol, what?

Henin has one more slam, but Serena has all four in the bag, along with multiple doubles majors, as well as Olympic gold. Serena also has the lead in their head to head. Oh, and she didn't flame out at 25.

Now, I much prefer Justine's demeanor and style to Serena, who I find to be practically unwatchable, but Serena's had a much better career than Justine.

Neither played owned the other one. Both had wins over the other at various points in their careers, both have beaten the other on every surface at some point, and they had a huge hole of time they didnt even play as well.

I agree Serena has the better overall career though which is why I voted for her. Not because of doubles though which is pretty much meaningless today, and Henin is the only one of the two that has the Olympic singles gold (the only one that really matters) but Serena has Wimbledon which is far bigger than the Olympic singles gold.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 12:07 PM
The one thing I think people are choosing to overlook is that Henin won everything BUT Wimbledon. That's a big deal in my mind. Wimbledon is bigger than the other majors, IMO.

Considering not just that she didn't win it, she didn't win it when she was expected to win it. She lost in 06 to Mauresmo, in what was a toss up match, ok. But that loss to Bartoli in 07, after being in control and looking like that was her year, is inexcusable to me. The fact that she never won Wimbledon is a big hole in her resume, to me, and is what's going to keep Henin from being mentioned as "all-time great".

flying24
06-24-2009, 12:12 PM
Serena her injury in mid 2003 has fallen off drastically in both quality of play and fitness. She had won only 2 slams in a 5 year span since then.Henin started to rsie when Rena was falling off.

Serena did not have an injury February 2003, it was in July of 2003 after Wimbledon. Henin only starting to come into her own had already beaten her 2 out of their 3 meetings that year before the July 2003 injury where I already pointed out was when she started to go down. Like I said you are clueless.

By the way Serena has only started to rise and win more often again since Henin retired. What a coincidence.

Aren't you the one who always takes credit away from those that fought hard to win a match?

Yeah Kuznetsova had to fight so hard vs a tanking/mentally collapsing Safina in that French Open final. Good one. :lol:

Aykhan Mammadov
06-24-2009, 12:13 PM
Henin was a player despite she was not naturally very healthy and strong. Her game and backhand was charming as Federers.

julesb
06-24-2009, 12:35 PM
Serena and Henin would both crush in their primes together. Serena was only 17 when she beat a prime Graf at Indian Wells in 1999. Henin does everything Graf does but with much better volleys, bigger backhand, and better return of serve.

jamesblakefan#1
06-24-2009, 12:36 PM
This thread isn't about Graf, GTFO!

julesb
06-24-2009, 12:39 PM
It is since the poll says "since Graf" when all these players are better than Graf. Venus, Serena, Henin, Hingis, Davenport, Jankovic, Ivanovic, Sharapova, Safina, are all better than Graf so how can they be the best player "since Graf" when all are better than her.

JeMar
06-24-2009, 12:43 PM
It is since the poll says "since Graf" when all these players are better than Graf. Venus, Serena, Henin, Hingis, Davenport, Jankovic, Ivanovic, Sharapova, Safina, are all better than Graf so how can they be the best player "since Graf" when all are better than her.



Did Steffi Graf like... I dunno, not autograph something for you once? You're way too freaking obsessed over her.

DRII
06-24-2009, 01:02 PM
Venus is the best at her best...

LDVTennis
06-24-2009, 01:27 PM
It is since the poll says "since Graf" when all these players are better than Graf.

Don't feed the troll!

egn
06-24-2009, 02:48 PM
Another clueless poster. You are a complete idiot if you think Henin was still at her peak in 2008. As well Serena was most definitely at her peak all of 2003 until her injury and still lost 2 out of 3 times to Henin who was just starting to be a champion then. She also lost to Henin 2002 when Henin was a nobody. Arent you the one who thinks Kuznetsova won the French only because she played great and nothing to do with the fact Safina basically gave her the match. So many clueless posters on TW these days.

Henin was no nobody in 2002 that is a huge knock to Henin in my opinion and makes her sound less of a force than she was. Henin would have done a lot of damage in 2002 French Open had she not been upset so early. Come on she was top 5 in the world, she had been to a slam final and a semi and grabbed her firs tier 1 title that year. She had established herself as a top player that year. Also Henin did beat Serena twice in 2003 but both were on clay and lets face it Henin in 2003 had one of her best clay seasons ever she was 20-1 won 2 clay master series and the French Open the only clay season shehad better was 2005 when she was 24-0. Henin in 2007 did definitely dominate Serena but Serena in 2007 was nothing like the Serena of 2002-2003 where Henin won on clay and Serena won on everything else. I think there head to head actually is just fine at 7-6, it favors neither really. If Henin and Serena had not been injuried, Serena spent more time dedicated to the game and Henin not quitting early I imagine the two would still be where they are but it would be more like 14-14 or something like that.

Lets face it talent wise they are pretty much the same just they played different styles. Serena was overpowering while Henin was finesse. The two were both amazing players form the past 10 years and both should have accomplished more than they did respectively. Injuries hurt both Serena from 03-05 and Henin from 04-05 and in those periods tennis really suffered. Davenport not winning slams was topping the tour as inconsitent Sharapova, Clijisters, Henin + Williams themselves were in and out. Both in a way benefited at times from the other, Henin benefited in late 03-early 04 with Serena injuried and than due to Serena's lack of dedication, while Serena benefited from Henin's burnout and missing of tournaments. The two as a whole are probably two of the most disappointing players when you think about it. They both have the game but don't seem to have the heart. Henin burned out and Serena is too busy getting caught up in the media. However when it is broken down Serena will always seem to get the edge because she won more and has that career slam. They both had short dominate periods when you compare them to other women greats, both have low slam counts compared to other greats (10,7) compared to (24,22,18,18) yet both were extremely talented. So really this whole arguement should be put to rest and we should focus on attempting to get the two to focus again and start playing up to their level so we can have an actually rivalry and two top players who aren't half assing it.

Case. End and point.

All-rounder
06-24-2009, 02:53 PM
My opinion Serena

Guru
06-25-2009, 02:23 AM
Henin won everything BUT Wimbledon. Wimbledon is bigger than the other majors, IMO.

It's a Grand Slam but how is it any bigger than the other three Slams?

I agree it's a hole in her resume but Pete Sampras didn't win all four majors either.

Henin did make the final twice at Wimbledon.

Serena has Wimbledon which is far bigger than the Olympic singles gold

Wimbledon is every year where as the Olympics is every four years.

jamesblakefan#1
06-25-2009, 04:01 AM
Wimbledon is every year where as the Olympics is every four years.

Nicolas Massu has a gold medal. Is he on the same level as a GS winner? I don't think so. The olympics are a different animal all together, and not enough to equal or be greater than a slam win, IMO. If anything, the Olympics is closer to a tier 1 event than a GS, accomplisment wise.

The fact that it's held every 4 years makes it an anomaly. For instance, if it was in 2003 instead of 2004, what's to say Serena wouldn't have a gold medal instead? I don't know, I have a problem making the Olympic gold that important in this discussion.

And Wimbledon, to me, is far more important than an Olympic Gold.

Guru
06-25-2009, 04:06 AM
Wimbledon, to me, is far more important than an Olympic Gold.

It is but winning Gold is still a major win for any player
all the top players turn up to the Olympics and they all want to win.

It comes around every four years so it's harder to win
because you will only get two or three chances to play for gold.

grafrules
06-25-2009, 08:34 AM
Henin was no nobody in 2002 that is a huge knock to Henin in my opinion and makes her sound less of a force than she was. Henin would have done a lot of damage in 2002 French Open had she not been upset so early. Come on she was top 5 in the world, she had been to a slam final and a semi and grabbed her firs tier 1 title that year.

Henin's slam results in 2002:

Australian Open- destroyed in 2 lopsided sets by Clijsters in quarters. This was also pre-prime Clijsters, the same Clijsters Henin would own in Clijsters's prime.

French Open- lost in 1st round to some Kapros girl.

Wimbledon- destroyed in semis by Venus. Still by far best slam showing of year with grass being worst surface, something that could even conceivably happen in her prime.

U. S Open- lost in quarters to Hantuchova

She also wasnt top 5 in 2002, she was top 10. At best she was a very marginal top player, not even one of the top 6 or 7 really. Clearly behind Venus, Serena, Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Capriati, a past her prime Seles. So she was definitely not in her prime yet in 2002. As for winning her first tier 1 title Henin went on to be by light years the best clay courter of her generation, on another planet from Serena, Kuznetsova, or anyone else on that surface, which surely you will concede. So even clearly not in her prime she can be a major contender on that surface, of course in her prime she is untouchable by anyone of the current generation on that surface unless she is sick or injured.

grafrules
06-25-2009, 08:36 AM
Lets face it talent wise they are pretty much the same just they played different styles. Serena was overpowering while Henin was finesse. The two were both amazing players form the past 10 years and both should have accomplished more than they did respectively. Injuries hurt both Serena from 03-05 and Henin from 04-05 and in those periods tennis really suffered. Davenport not winning slams was topping the tour as inconsitent Sharapova, Clijisters, Henin + Williams themselves were in and out. Both in a way benefited at times from the other, Henin benefited in late 03-early 04 with Serena injuried and than due to Serena's lack of dedication, while Serena benefited from Henin's burnout and missing of tournaments. The two as a whole are probably two of the most disappointing players when you think about it. They both have the game but don't seem to have the heart. Henin burned out and Serena is too busy getting caught up in the media. However when it is broken down Serena will always seem to get the edge because she won more and has that career slam. They both had short dominate periods when you compare them to other women greats, both have low slam counts compared to other greats (10,7) compared to (24,22,18,18) yet both were extremely talented. So really this whole arguement should be put to rest and we should focus on attempting to get the two to focus again and start playing up to their level so we can have an actually rivalry and two top players who aren't half assing it.

Case. End and point.

I agree with all that.

boredone3456
06-25-2009, 10:45 AM
In terms pf most accomplished player of course its Serena, but in terms of total overall talent...I would have to lean in Favor of Henin. Even pre-prime Henin was able to give both Williams sisters difficulties, while prime Henin had little trouble slapping aside Serena in 3 straight slam quarters in 2007. You can say Wimbledon...but if you ask me Serena got lucky to get to the quarters there that year because Hantuchova couldn't capitilize after Serena collapsed with cramps and Serena who was limping around afterwards won, Hantuchova blew a huge chance. Overall in terms of ability I will likely always rate Henin higher, especially given Serena's current fitness and dedication level, with which she is still able to win thanks to the gaggle of choking girls around her. In terms of accomplishment though, Serena wins because of her majors, even though if Henin had stayed that to could have turned out different.

Guru
06-28-2009, 09:12 AM
Serena never beat Henin at the French Open
but Henin did beat Serena at the US Open and Wimbledon
(williams home slam and henin's worst surface)

NadalandFedererfan
06-28-2009, 10:08 AM
I dont see how this is even a question. I respect Henin, the only other truly great player from this generation other than the Williams sisters. However 10 slams > 7 slams. Career slam > no career slam. No comparision. Yeah there ar some years Henin was better than Serena, and in 2007 she was clearly the best player of that year but then she started bad in 2008 and retired. Her career is what it is, and the body of work just does not measure up to Serena overall. A better poll should be who is the 2nd best player of this era between Henin and Venus. Now that is a real question. Yet not only is Henin trouncing Serena on this poll by a distrubingly one sided margin, but Hingis is even included in this poll over Venus who as I said is really neck and neck for Henin as 2nd best of this era and clearly superior to Hingis. The hatred for the Williams on this forum is blindingly apparent.

boredone3456
06-28-2009, 01:18 PM
^^^^ If you want to give it to Serena and the ask the question of whether Venus or Henin is second best to her...there is no question it is Henin. Venus is shaping up to be just a Wimbledon phenomina even though she also has 2 US Opens. Henin also has 2 US Opens and her career outside of Wimbledon blows Venus out of the water (more variety of slams and accomplishment at them, better showings at her worst major, more weeks at number and a longer period of true domination of the rest of the tour). We had a poll about those 2 a while back...and if I remember correctly Henin had the clear advantage.

EtePras
06-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Graf won almost all her slams beating women in their 30s, women who were 15 years old, women who were stabbed with a knife, or moonballers like Sanchez and Sabatini. No she is not top 50 all time, anyone who thinks she is when almost all her wins were a joke is a fool.

Good post, players of the past simply suck at tennis.

NadalandFedererfan
06-28-2009, 01:22 PM
^^^^ If you want to give it to Serena and the ask the question of whether Venus or Henin is second best to her...there is no question it is Henin. Venus is shaping up to be just a Wimbledon phenomina even though she also has 2 US Opens. Henin also has 2 US Opens and her career outside of Wimbledon blows Venus out of the water (more variety of slams and accomplishment at them, better showings at her worst major, more weeks at number and a longer period of true domination of the rest of the tour). We had a poll about those 2 a while back...and if I remember correctly Henin had the clear advantage.

Yes but seeing as another poll has 7 time slam champion Henin crushing 10 time slam champion and winner of the non Calender Slam Serena, how much stock can you put in the results of a poll on TW involving a Williams? As I said it is clear alot of people have a certain bias against the Williams.

I agree it would be nice if Venus's record was more balanced and that is a knock against her somewhat. However Wimbledon is still arguably the biggest event in tennis and Venus winning that 5 times is incredible. Henin's failure to win Wimbledon is a black mark against her. In terms of consistency Henin crushes Venus I would admit. However in terms of longevity Venus has already crushed Henin, with Henin winning all her slams from 2003-2007 and now retired. Venus was winning tier 1 titles before Henin even played her first match on tour, and has won Wimbledon and the WTA Championships after Henin retired. I would probably go with Henin at this point but still think Henin vs Venus is a tough call, and a more reasonable debate than Henin vs Serena.

That Hingis would be put on this poll over Venus at all is yet another additional reflection of a certain bias against the Williams sisters IMO.

boredone3456
06-28-2009, 01:37 PM
Yes but seeing as another poll has 7 time slam champion Henin crushing 10 time slam champion and winner of the non Calender Slam Serena, how much stock can you put in the results of a poll on TW involving a Williams? As I said it is clear alot of people have a certain bias against the Williams.

I agree it would be nice if Venus's record was more balanced and that is a knock against her somewhat. However Wimbledon is still arguably the biggest event in tennis and Venus winning that 5 times is incredible. Henin's failure to win Wimbledon is a black mark against her. In terms of consistency Henin crushes Venus I would admit. However in terms of longevity Venus has already crushed Henin, with Henin winning all her slams from 2003-2007 and now retired. Venus was winning tier 1 titles before Henin even played her first match on tour, and has won Wimbledon and the WTA Championships after Henin retired. I would probably go with Henin at this point but still think Henin vs Venus is a tough call, and a more reasonable debate than Henin vs Serena.

That Hingis would be put on this poll over Venus at all is yet another additional reflection of a certain bias against the Williams sisters IMO.

The reason Henin is probably crushing Serena in these polls is because people are acknowledging the fact that Serena has had little to no real competition to win her last few slams in a field heavily depleted by the retirement of Henin, the absense of Sharapova and the fact that her Sister hibernates everywhere else except for Wimbledon, the US Open, and occasionally the tour championships. In terms of the most accomplished player its is obviously Serena...but that is not what the poll asks, it asks for the best..and best does not necessarily mean the most accomplished, they are not in some eyes one in the same.

As for Venus, yes its incredible that she has won 5 Wimbledons and may yet add more, but coonsidering how bad the current grass court field is, it would be shocking if she didnt have so many. But for everyone of those she wins, her disparity everywhere else shows all the more. This year she lost in the 3rd round of the first 2 majors, and considering she was seeded to reach at least the quarters of both that is sad. Yes she has always been bad on clay, but it still is as much a mark against her as Henin's inability to win wimbledon.

Despite that Henin made 2 finals there, and either equals or surpasses Venus in slam finals and slam titles everywhere but at Wimbledon. Wimbledon may be the most important, that is up for debate as now the slams are equal more than they may have ever been...but if Venus's 7 slams were all Wimbledon's would anyone really say she was beter than Henin who has one 3 of the 4 and 7 overall herself? I really don't think so. Venus has not played a non Wimbledon slam final since 2003, she has not won a non Wimbledon slam since 2001. She may have more longevity but in that longer career she has accomplished very little outside of Wimbledon. Henin in a shorter spanse accomplished more overall than Venus when as you said...Venus had longer to do it.

NadalandFedererfan
06-28-2009, 01:54 PM
The reason Henin is probably crushing Serena in these polls is because people are acknowledging the fact that Serena has had little to no real competition to win her last few slams in a field heavily depleted by the retirement of Henin, the absense of Sharapova

Perhaps so but people must consider Serena won 6 or 7 of her current 10 slams vs a much stronger field than todays. So this winning vs a weaker field of players is true of about a third of her slams so far but not most. As the field seems to building back up again with some young emerging talent I suspect it will remain the majority of her slams will have been won vs a very strong field.

Also 2 could play at that game. Henin won 4 of her 7 slams at the French Open where who is her competition? The Williams sisters worst surface by far is clay, and Henin still had a very hard time beating Serena in 1 of their only 2 meeting there. Sharapova sucks completely on clay. That leaves only her regular pigeons to munch on- Clijsters and Kuznetsova mainly. Faced with the surfaces that provide her with more competition Henin has prevailed at times but often fallen as her 0-2 record in Wimbledon finals, and overall 1-3 record in slam finals in 2006 reflects.

and the fact that her Sister hibernates everywhere else except for Wimbledon, the US Open, and occasionally the tour championships.

Yes this is true. However Henin in what should still be the prime of her career is hibernating from everywhere now as a retired 25 year old. To abruptly retire only 4 months after her most dominant year ever, seemingly as a knee jerk reaction to just a few dissapointing performances, does not exactly cast herself in the best light.

In terms of the most accomplished player its is obviously Serena...but that is not what the poll asks, it asks for the best..and best does not necessarily mean the most accomplished, they are not in some eyes one in the same.

When there is that big a spread in achievements, and it is two players about 8 months apart in age playing virtually the same field over a long span of 8 years or more, I dont see how the two can be distinguished.

As for Venus, yes its incredible that she has won 5 Wimbledons and may yet add more, but coonsidering how bad the current grass court field is, it would be shocking if she didnt have so many.

Like I said earlier you could say the same thing about Henin's Frenchs vs the current clay court field. It is tic for tac.

But for everyone of those she wins, her disparity everywhere else shows all the more. This year she lost in the 3rd round of the first 2 majors, and considering she was seeded to reach at least the quarters of both that is sad. Yes she has always been bad on clay, but it still is as much a mark against her as Henin's inability to win wimbledon.

Yes I do understand your point here.

Despite that Henin made 2 finals there, and either equals or surpasses Venus in slam finals and slam titles everywhere but at Wimbledon. Wimbledon may be the most important, that is up for debate as now the slams are equal more than they may have ever been...

I agree the slams are much more equal now than they used to be, but I think even the players will still tell you Wimbledon is the most prestigious and important of all, all things being equal. Why do you think Rafa talked about dreaming to win Wimbledon when he was so dominant on clay, and when clay was clearly his comfort zone. Yet he was so determined to work his butt off to win Wimbledon, despite it going against all conventional logic when he first arrived on the scene. Dont you think that is telling enough to its still pre-eminent positon even amongst its sister slams? Henin had a more natural game to win Wimbledon than Rafa but wasnt able to muster the same determination to do it.

but if Venus's 7 slams were all Wimbledon's would anyone really say she was beter than Henin who has one 3 of the 4 and 7 overall herself? I really don't think so.

No I wouldnt in that case. The thing is Venus doesnt have 7 Wimbledons only though. She has 2 U.S Opens as well, the same # as Henin.

Venus has not played a non Wimbledon slam final since 2003, she has not won a non Wimbledon slam since 2001. She may have more longevity but in that longer career she has accomplished very little outside of Wimbledon. Henin in a shorter spanse accomplished more overall than Venus when as you said...Venus had longer to do it.

I see your points and again I am not saying I would rank Venus over Henin. However I am saying Henin vs Venus is still a much closer debate than Serena vs Henin IMO. I think people should be discussing who is 2nd between Henin and Venus, more than who is 1st between Serena and Henin, and yet Henin with over double the votes of Serena as best of this era, and Hingis included on a poll over Venus. Sorry that just doesnt look right to me, and seeing all the vitriol and hate the Williams seem to get around here there just seems to be a very anti-Williams sentiment around here.