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zorg
03-25-2005, 09:07 AM
I was wondering why not most pros use a vibration dampener. This question is mainly to safin. Because i use the LM Prestige, i know how much it vibrates. Does the PC600 vibrate that much alos? If so, why doesn't he use one?

Venetian
03-25-2005, 11:10 AM
All vibration dampers do is changed the sound the racquet makes upon hitting, or so I hear. I tried using them a few years ago and didn't notice any difference at all, so now I'm back to plain strings. I use the HPS 6.1 btw.

zorg
03-25-2005, 11:50 AM
lol, no. They change how much the racket handle vibrates

Lambsscroll
03-25-2005, 01:04 PM
It has nothing to do with the handle although with some of these very light stiff racquets it may help a little. When the strings vibrate it makes a pinging sound and some guys dont like that sound so they put in a dampener. I have noticed a slight reduction in power when i use one but its hardly noticable.

alan-n
03-25-2005, 01:15 PM
I was wondering why not most pros use a vibration dampener. This question is mainly to safin. Because i use the LM Prestige, i know how much it vibrates. Does the PC600 vibrate that much alos? If so, why doesn't he use one?

They use basically the same thing / effect. They use power pads, or just a piece of leather in between the bottom mains in the throat area of the racket. I've tried it once and didn't like it.

Lambsscroll
03-25-2005, 01:22 PM
Those power pads help to reduce string breakage. By lifting the string you reduce the sharp corner the string goes around.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 01:48 PM
lol, no. They change how much the racket handle vibrates
Hhahahahaha......WRONG!!! Venetian is correct. All the damper does is mute that pining sound that middle mains produce after the ball has made contact.

Dampers does not effect how the racquet vibrates. I suggest reading "Tennis Science for Tennis Players" by Howard Brody. He is Physicists and was a Professor at University of Pennsylvania. He did many studies on the science of Tennis, and he addressed that the dampers are just merely to mute the main strings from vibrating to make that pinging noise that some or most people do don't care for.

alan-n
03-25-2005, 04:56 PM
Those power pads help to reduce string breakage. By lifting the string you reduce the sharp corner the string goes around.

Not with modern grommets which are already molded rounded. This was true back in the wood racquet days. Now they are used as a vibration dampener.

tennissavy
03-25-2005, 05:16 PM
Most pros do not use dampeners. Some do though I believe it is to reduce the "ping" sound which the dampeners effectively accomplish. If the dampeners really reduced vibrations and alleviated arm strain, all the pros would use them since it is their livelihood on the line. I have used them but definitely did not notice any vibration reduction. I believe that it is the power of suggestion at work here- if you don't hear the "ping" the vibrations are eliminated. Unfortunately, it is not true. At least, I don't think it is true. You know what works for minimizing vibrations? Answer: Adding weight to your racquets which all the touring pros do.

bc-05
03-25-2005, 05:30 PM
do powerpads work like a rubberband?

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 05:33 PM
do powerpads work like a rubberband?From my experience, powerpads does not mute the ping as much as an actual string damper. It does a little, but not as much. IMHO, it's more of a hassle making and putting those in than it is to put on a rubberband or any dampers on the center mains. Powerpads do look nicer though. My 2 cents.

aj_m2009
03-25-2005, 05:35 PM
Hhahahahaha......WRONG!!! Venetian is correct. All the damper does is mute that pining sound that middle mains produce after the ball has made contact.

Dampers does not effect how the racquet vibrates. I suggest reading "Tennis Science for Tennis Players" by Howard Brody. He is Physicists and was a Professor at University of Pennsylvania. He did many studies on the science of Tennis, and he addressed that the dampers are just merely to mute the main strings from vibrating to make that pinging noise that some or most people do don't care for.

Then why did I have arm pain when my HH 6.2 didn't have a dampener on it but when it had one on it I didn't feel any pain? Please explain that to me.

zorg
03-25-2005, 05:35 PM
You guys may be correct, but do any of you use the LM Prestige? If so, you can actually FEEL the vibrations when no rubber band/ vibration damper is on. Since you can FEEL it, it most likely does reduce vibrations. All of those who use the LM prestige withought adding weight, try it.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 05:44 PM
Then why did I have arm pain when my HH 6.2 didn't have a dampener on it but when it had one on it I didn't feel any pain? Please explain that to me.In your case, I can't explain. But, if curing an arm pain or tennis elbow for that matter by using a simple damper, then you should win the Nobel Peace Prize for such discovery.

There are many factors that can contribute to arm pain and many factors to relieve it. But using a damper is very unlikely. Would you show me some scientific studies that dampers actually relieve arm pains?

You do know that there tennis players with arm pains/tennis elbows that play with dampers right?

Again, I recommend reading the book by Brody.

bc-05
03-25-2005, 05:52 PM
i think the pinging noise what makes him feel as if it vibrates.. to be honest if it was me.. when i play without the rubberbands.. i always felt like as if the tension becomes lower... and the annoying noise oughhh.. hate it.. oh yeah dude.. now the way i tie my knot is the normal way (like how u do it).. just to let u know.. its as effective anyway.. about the powerpads what are they for then? if they dont dampen as much as the dampener?

aj_m2009
03-25-2005, 05:53 PM
In your case, I can't explain. But, if curing an arm pain or tennis elbow for that matter by using a simple damper, then you should win the Nobel Peace Prize for such discovery.

There are many factors that can contribute to arm pain and many factors to relieve it. But using a damper is very unlikely. Would you show me some scientific studies that dampers actually relieve arm pains?

Again, I recommend reading the book by Brody.

No thanks, I have all of the proof that I need. And you can choose to believe me or not, it doesn't matter to me, all I know is it had something to do with it. And if you want me to I will go out the next time I play tennis and take of the rubberband and play without it and see if I have any pain(**note that I do use a different racket than that now but I believe it is actually stiffer than the HH). And notice you said it was unlikely that a dampener would "cure" it, you didn't say it was impossible.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 06:00 PM
i think the pinging noise what makes him feel as if it vibrates.. to be honest if it was me.. when i play without the rubberbands.. i always felt like as if the tension becomes lower... and the annoying noise oughhh.. hate it.. oh yeah dude.. now the way i tie my knot is the normal way (like how u do it).. just to let u know.. its as effective anyway.. about the powerpads what are they for then? if they dont dampen as much as the dampener?Back in the days of wooden racquets the pads were means of damping the string vibration to reduce the pings. The actual dampers we have now came much later. I'm not sure when.

I think you are right about "the pinging noise that makes one to believe they feel the whole racquet is vibrating". Its all in the head. IMHO.

aj_m2009
03-25-2005, 06:15 PM
...Its all in the head...

I knew you would say that sooner or later. I have an idea, you go demo a HH 6.2 OS and play with it for a few days without a dampener and see if you get any pain, then put a dampener(preferably the Wilson US Open dampener because that is what I used)and see if it doesn't go away. If it doesn't go away or you get no pain in the first place then I will agree with you and say it is all in the head.

alan-n
03-25-2005, 06:20 PM
I think you are right about "the pinging noise that makes one to believe they feel the whole racquet is vibrating". Its all in the head. IMHO.

gmlasam, It is very possible that the vibrations from the strings may cause injury / pain and I can explain as this is an engineering nightmare. Car (or any structure for that matter) manufacturers go through great lengths to make sure that any vibrations occur are dampened or do not cause any structure to resonate, this will easily loosen bolts up and cause quality problems. The same can occur with a tennis racquet, especially wood racquets. If you were to misshit and cause the string bed to vibrate at the woods natural frequecy.... what happens is constructive interference of those small vibrations which become very large vibrations in the racquet head. That energy gets transferred to the racquet handle and transferred to your hand.... arm.... shoulder where it is absorbed = pain.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 06:29 PM
gmlasam, It is very possible that the vibrations from the strings may cause injury / pain and I can explain as this is an engineering nightmare. Car (or any structure for that matter) manufacturers go through great lengths to make sure that any vibrations occur are dampened or do not cause any structure to resonate, this will easily loosen bolts up and cause quality problems. The same can occur with a tennis racquet, especially wood racquets. If you were to misshit and cause the string bed to vibrate at the woods natural frequecy.... what happens is constructive interference of those small vibrations which become very large vibrations in the racquet head. That energy gets transferred to the racquet handle and transferred to your hand.... arm.... shoulder where it is absorbed = pain.yes, but the damper in question, the piece of rubber that goes between the two center mains, is not enough to dampenen the whole string bed. So how does that small piece of damper can actually make such dramatic effect as relieveing arm pain? That damper is was not designed or intended as a shock absorber. It is a noise reducer.

aj_m2009
03-25-2005, 06:33 PM
...That damper is was not designed or intended as a shock absorber. It is a noise reducer.

Do you have proof to back up this claim?

alan-n
03-25-2005, 06:40 PM
yes, but the damper in question, the piece of rubber that goes between the two center mains, is not enough to dampenen the whole string bed. So how does that small piece of damper can actually make such dramatic effect as relieveing arm pain? That damper is was not designed or intended as a shock absorber. It is a noise reducer.

Gmlasam, it takes energy to make noise which in this case is friction and possibly even portions of the racquet resonating. In order to reduce that noise you have to absorb some of that energy, which in this case is the high frequency vibrations of the string bed. Its no different than having a rubber engine mount, mount something that vibrates like an engine on a solid piece of metal and see if you can commute to the grocery store without a headache. A small piece of ruber is all that it takes to aborb the high frequency vibrations which would otherwise resonate the racquet head causing excessive shock.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 06:43 PM
I knew you would say that sooner or later. I have an idea, you go demo a HH 6.2 OS and play with it for a few days without a dampener and see if you get any pain, then put a dampener(preferably the Wilson US Open dampener because that is what I used)and see if it doesn't go away. If it doesn't go away or you get no pain in the first place then I will agree with you and say it is all in the head.aj_m2009,

I've been playing tennis for over 20 years, started playing when I was 8, and have come across many racquets, flexible and very stiff. The stiffest is the PS 6.1. There was a period where I did not play with any damper, 4 years in fact and have not encountered any arm pains or tennis elbow, with or without dampers. I play a POG which many consider to be very stiff, and in fact it is the racquet I learned how to play tennis on.

I can demo the HH 6.2 at my local pro shop, but the demo is only for a day, not enough time to actually replicate your claim.

Why don't you play with your HH 6.2 without the damper and see if you still have the pain. I highly doubt the damper has anything to do with reducing your arm pain though.

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 06:45 PM
Do you have proof to back up this claim?

Logically, how does a small piece of rubber attached on the two center mains absorb the shock of the entire stringbed, all 14, 16, or 18 mains, and 19 or 20 crosses?

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 06:51 PM
Do you have proof to back up this claim?

Here is an abstract on a scientific study on such subject. The proof

Look HERE (http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=7cd1bedf5984470a8eaefc11045a 350a&referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,10;journal,5,93;linkingpublicationr esults,1:100184,1)

Here is the conclusion of the study:
In conclusion, we found that string dampers do not reduce the amount of racket frame vibration received at the forearm. We suggest that string dampers remain a popular accessory among tennis players because of their acoustic effects and psychological support rather than any mechanical advantage.

zorg
03-25-2005, 07:09 PM
Hmm, i have a simple way to prive it. Look at a Wilson pre-strung racket. THey have vibration dampeners, but on them they say SHOCK ABSORBERS. which means they absord SHOCK. It is just a black piece of rubber, like a vib dampener. Here is such a racket :
http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/gradslamracket.html

gmlasam
03-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Hmm, i have a simple way to prive it. Look at a Wilson pre-strung racket. THey have vibration dampeners, but on them they say SHOCK ABSORBERS. which means they absord SHOCK. It is just a black piece of rubber, like a vib dampener. Here is such a racket :
http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/gradslamracket.htmlI'm done with this subject. Please read "Tennis Science for Tennis Players" by Howard Brody as it is very informative and "REFUTES" many of the myths found in this messageboard. Also, read that study I linked HERE (http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=7cd1bedf5984470a8eaefc11045a 350a&referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,10;journal,5,93;linkingpublicationr esults,1:100184,1) regarding the dampers. I'm done.

Venetian
03-25-2005, 07:47 PM
Just because it says SHOCK ABSORBER doesn't mean it is one. Look at the little cardboard cover on that Wal-Mart racquet and note the picture of Federer volleying with that same $20 racquet painted in his hands. Do you think Roger really uses it just because the picture shows him with it?

The dude on that one actually appears to be Pete or Dent.

Heck, I could print SHOCK ABSORBER on a bunch of t-shirts and sell them. Does that mean those t-shirts absorb racquet vibrations?

zorg
03-25-2005, 08:08 PM
It's Dent :-O

JoostT
03-26-2005, 03:18 AM
:arrow: :| :mad: [COLOR=Sienna]

POGO
03-26-2005, 05:12 AM
Here is an abstract on a scientific study on such subject. The proof

Look HERE (http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=7cd1bedf5984470a8eaefc11045a 350a&referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,10;journal,5,93;linkingpublicationr esults,1:100184,1)

Here is the conclusion of the study:
[/b]
Nice!!!!!!!! Great find gmlasam. I've always thought the dampers were to reduce arm shock, but after reading your points I was wrong. I guess it is all in the head as you put it, and that link you provided really proofed it.

So that book you highly recommend is that good huh? I'll go check it out.

bc-05
03-26-2005, 06:30 AM
yes, but the damper in question, the piece of rubber that goes between the two center mains, is not enough to dampenen the whole string bed. So how does that small piece of damper can actually make such dramatic effect as relieveing arm pain? That damper is was not designed or intended as a shock absorber. It is a noise reducer.

actually come to think about it.. it actually dampens vibration.. im not lying.. it does.. maybe not the shock that will effect ur arm.. but it affects the vibration.. like when i hit without it feels like the racquet is vibrating.. a bit im talking about a little.. it might be vibration from the sound.. that ping what makes it feel like it vibrates other than that trust me it doesnt do nothing.. if ur talkin about arm pain.. i doubt it will affect that much.. but as for dampening the whole string bed.. it eliminates at like 20-30% though.. i mean think about it the strings are connected to each other therefore even if u only dampen the middle 2 middle 2 connects to the whole string bed.. eventhough its only little man it does affect the whole string bed.. but i agree with u.. it wouldnt do anything to help ur arm.. it just kills the annoyingness.. but ill tell u what i feel though.. does putting rubberband increase the tension? coz it feels more dead when u put rubberband.. or once again its the pinging noise?

POGO
03-26-2005, 06:59 AM
bc-05,

How did you come up with the damper damping the whole stringbed like 20-30%? That is alot. Is that your estimate or you actually have some information about that? It would nice if you can post that info to go against the link gmlasam provided.

It seems like the post and the info gmlasam provided seems to be most compeling, specially the link he provided. Did you happen to read that link?

It is pretty interesting read.

equinox
03-26-2005, 07:03 AM
Then why did I have arm pain when my HH 6.2 didn't have a dampener on it but when it had one on it I didn't feel any pain? Please explain that to me.
Pains all in your mind.

fedex27
03-26-2005, 07:07 AM
i hate vibration so much that i use powerpads, rubber bands on everystring on the bottom and the side mains and the top. It may look stupid but it really helps

really all the dampender does is get rid of the noise it really matters on the racquet and the strings if they make the ping or not

bc-05
03-26-2005, 07:56 AM
bc-05,

How did you come up with the damper damping the whole stringbed like 20-30%? That is alot. Is that your estimate or you actually have some information about that? It would nice if you can post that info to go against the link gmlasam provided.

It seems like the post and the info gmlasam provided seems to be most compeling, specially the link he provided. Did you happen to read that link?

It is pretty interesting read.

ohh yeah.. i read it on the packet of the wilson dampener.. it said dampens upto 25% vibration.. and from my experience rubberband kills more pinging noise than these wilson dampener so if theyre 25% then rubberband should be in the area.. but thats just what the packet says though.. i dunno if its true or not.. sorry i didnt reference.. my bad

zorg
03-26-2005, 06:54 PM
You realize ppl that noice is made from vibrations. So you can make the naoice without the racket vibrating. THat is why when it doesn't vibrate, via dampener, less sound.

zorg
03-26-2005, 06:56 PM
Wow, i really misspelled some stuff in that last post. Let me do that over. You realize ppl that noise is made from vibrations. So you cannot make the noise without the racket vibrating. That is why when it doesn't vibrate, via dampener, less sound.

alan-n
03-26-2005, 07:11 PM
I don't mean to counter anyones arguments here just want to add an observation.

That scientic "study" provided zero evidence in their own conclusions. There are many "studies" like this who conclude with an opinion. In order for it to be a valid study, than test cases need to be set up along with measurements. There were no test cases, there were no measurements. Just an opinion. So how can their tests be validated?

As for shock dampeners... Think about how it is like to drive your car with stiff shocks... This is no different than what a dampener does to the string bed, yes it does dampen the energy that would otherwise be transfered through the handle/grip and through your arm / body.

POGO
03-26-2005, 07:34 PM
I don't mean to counter anyones arguments here just want to add an observation.

That scientic "study" provided zero evidence in their own conclusions. There are many "studies" like this who conclude with an opinion. In order for it to be a valid study, than test cases need to be set up along with measurements. There were no test cases, there were no measurements. Just an opinion. So how can their tests be validated?

As for shock dampeners... Think about how it is like to drive your car with stiff shocks... This is no different than what a dampener does to the string bed, yes it does dampen the energy that would otherwise be transfered through the handle/grip and through your arm / body.

I think in fairness the link is an "abstract" it is a condensed version of the actual study. Abstracts are not as detailed, but a summary of the actual study. I went back to the link and found the site to be valid, they contain professional journals that are commonly required for college research papers for references.

I found also a different study on the subject that claim what gmlasam has already stated.

Journal of Sports Sciences
Publisher: Taylor & Francis
Issue: Volume 17, Number 5 / May 1, 1999
Pages: 379 - 385
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.1080/026404199365894

The effect of tennis racket string vibration dampers on racket handle vibrations and discomfort following impacts

CLAIRE L. STROEDE, LARRY NOBLE, HUGH S. WALKER

Abstract:

In this study, we evaluated the effect of the use of tennis racket string vibration dampers on racket handle vibrations, and perceptions of hand and arm discomfort experienced by tennis players owing to stationary racket impacts. Twenty tennis players (10 males, 10 females) aged 18-29 years volunteered for the study. Two different racket models were impacted at the geometric centre of the racket face and 100 mm distal to the centre both with and without string vibration dampers in place. The participants could neither see nor hear the impacts, and they indicated their discomfort immediately after each impact using a visual analogue scale. An analysis of variance (2x2x2 factorial) was performed on the scaled discomfort ratings with the factors damping condition, racket type and impact location. No significant differences in discomfort ratings between damped and undamped impacts or between the two racket types were found. Also, central impacts were found to be more comfortable than impacts 100 mm distal to the centre (P< 0.05). There were no significant interaction effects. Vibration traces from an accelerometer mounted on the racket handle revealed that string vibration dampers quickly absorbed high-frequency string vibration without attenuating the lower-frequency frame vibration. In conclusion, we found no evidence to support the contention that string vibration dampers reduce hand and arm impact discomfort.

Keywords:

Racket;Striking Implement;Tennis;Vibration;Visual Analogue Scale

The references of this article are secured to subscribers.


Journal of Sports Sciences
Publisher: Taylor & Francis
Issue: Volume 22, Numbers 11-12 / November-December 2004
Pages: 1041 - 1052
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.1080/02640410410001729982

String vibration dampers do not reduce racket frame vibration transfer to the forearm

F-X Li A1, D Fewtrell A2 A3, M Jenkins A2

A1 Perception-Action Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences University of Birmingham Birmingham UK
A2 Materials Science Research Centre, School of Engineering University of Birmingham Birmingham UK
A3 Department of Technology University of Central Lancashire Preston UK

Abstract:

In this study, we examined the effect of string vibration damping devices on reducing racket frame vibration transfer to the forearm. Twenty participants volunteered to hold a tennis racket stationary in a forehand and backhand stroking position while tennis balls were fired at 20 m · s−1 towards two impact locations, the node of vibration and the dead spot. A three-way analysis of variance with repeated measures on damping condition, impact location and stroke condition was performed on the data. The resonant frequency of the hand-held racket was found to be ∼120 Hz. No significant differences in amplitude of vibration at the resonant frequency were found for the wrist or the elbow when damped and non-damped impacts were compared. Impacts at the dead spot produced greater amplitudes of vibration (P  < 0.01) but no interaction between impact location and string dampers was evident. The string dampers had no effect on the grip force used or the muscle electrical activity in the forearm after impact. In conclusion, we found that string dampers do not reduce the amount of racket frame vibration received at the forearm. We suggest that string dampers remain a popular accessory among tennis players because of their acoustic effects and psychological support rather than any mechanical advantage.

Keywords:

electromyography, grip force, string dampers, tennis, vibration

The references of this article are secured to subscribers.

POGO
03-26-2005, 07:38 PM
alan-n,

This topic is becoming very interesting. Would you mind finding some studies that counter these findings?

Datacipher
03-26-2005, 08:15 PM
alan-n,

This topic is becoming very interesting. Would you mind finding some studies that counter these findings?

LOL. Poor gmlasam! I thought the myth of the "dampers" had been universally debunked 15 years ago! I'd certainly be interested in opposing finding from studies, but I doubt you'll find any as I have never seen any to date. In fact every tennis authority I know of, acknowledges that dampers have little or no effect on frame vibration.

mido
03-26-2005, 09:00 PM
I think TW Learning Center clarifies that issue perfectly:
"Rubber string dampers reduce string vibration only - they have no effect on frame shock or vibration".

Vibration (Frame): The lingering, low-frequency oscillation of the racquet after ball contact that players feel. Generally, more flexible racquets produce greater low-level vibration than stiffer frames. Often confused with string vibration, frame vibration has a shorter duration and cannot be reduced using small, rubberized string vibration dampers. Some handle systems are effective at reducing frame vibration. Also, hitting the Node area of the sweetspot produces the least amount of frame vibration. Post-production methods for reducing frame vibration include adding weight and stringing at mid-range. String vibration dampers will not reduce frame vibration.

Damping (or Dampening): Generally refers to vibration and/or shock damping. Handle systems, such as Prince's Air+ Comfort Handle, Wilson's Triad Technology with Iso.Zorb and Head's ShockStop are designed to reduce frame shock and vibration before they reach the player's hand. Weight is also effective in decreasing shock and vibration. Rubber string dampers reduce string vibration only - they have no effect on frame shock or vibration (it's simple physics - a 2 gram string damper versus a 250-350 gram racquet striking a 60 gram ball...).

Shock (frame): Initial, high-amplitude oscillation (jarring) of the racquet during or immediately after ball contact. Often confused with frame vibration, frame shock is generally believed to contribute more to wrist, elbow and/or shoulder injuries than vibration. Generally, a smaller, stiffer, lighter racquet strung at high tension will produce more shock than a larger, flexible, lightweight frame strung loosely. Off-center hits also increase the amount of shock transmitted to the hand and arm. In fact, if you can hit the Center of Percussion (COP) area of the sweetspot each time, your shots will be shock-free. Certain handle systems (for example, Prince's Air+ Comfort Handle and Head's ShockStop) are effective in reducing shock before it reaches the hand. Additionally, Wilson's Triad Technology and Pro Kennex's Kinetic System Technology are designed to absorb frame shock. After-market methods of reducing frame shock include adding weight to the frame, lowering string tension, using a thinner gauge string and increasing grip size (to a point) to reduce torque. String vibration dampers are ineffective at reducing or absorbing frame shock.

POGO
03-26-2005, 09:06 PM
mido,

thanks for that info. I didn't realize TW has such information already. This pretty much concludes this whole subject.

Gmlasam is right after all.

Thanks gmlasam for your info.

equinox
03-27-2005, 01:29 AM
Guys!, String dampeners don't reduce shock or vibration travelling from racquet to your arm.

All they do is stop the strings vibrating and in the process reduce the ping noise that some people find annoying.

POGO
03-27-2005, 05:01 AM
Guys!, String dampeners don't reduce shock or vibration travelling from racquet to your arm.

All they do is stop the strings vibrating and in the process reduce the ping noise that some people find annoying.

I agree with that now, but for some reason aj_m2009 and alan-n seem to believe otherwise.

alan-n
03-27-2005, 12:03 PM
When you play a game based on how the tool (racquet) feels... Sometimes science can conclude one thing and reality can conclude another. For example, a 5% difference in tension and resiliency would be concluded to be "neglible". On the court with a competant player that 5% difference could easily translate into the ball sailing 2ft long. So much for "neglible" difference. Science is more often wrong than you think..... And that is the difference between Engineering and Science. Lab and Real World. Theory and Reality.

I would like to see a a better study done. The bottom line and reality is this: If cushioned grips absorb a perceivable amount of frame shock. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that a piece of rubber on the frame string bed wouldn't. The energy would be transfered and absorbed just the same, just at a lesser amount... It may be concluded that 2% (or whatever) is neglible by a non tennis playing scientist, but can my be noticable to the player.

POGO
03-27-2005, 04:44 PM
When you play a game based on how the tool (racquet) feels... Sometimes science can conclude one thing and reality can conclude another. For example, a 5% difference in tension and resiliency would be concluded to be "neglible". On the court with a competant player that 5% difference could easily translate into the ball sailing 2ft long. So much for "neglible" difference. Science is more often wrong than you think..... And that is the difference between Engineering and Science. Lab and Real World. Theory and Reality.

I would like to see a a better study done. The bottom line and reality is this: If cushioned grips absorb a perceivable amount of frame shock. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that a piece of rubber on the frame string bed wouldn't. The energy would be transfered and absorbed just the same, just at a lesser amount... It may be concluded that 2% (or whatever) is neglible by a non tennis playing scientist, but can my be noticable to the player.
alan-n,

Interesting points, but would you find and post some studies or any evidence to support your argument? All you have stated so far are from your "personal opinions". I would like to see some studies to support your opinion on this.

So far you and ajm_2009 are the minority here.

I think at this point you are like trying to prove planet Earth is still flat, which is pretty much a moot point.

matchpoints
03-27-2005, 05:04 PM
I nominate alan-n to do the study ;)

racingdad23
03-27-2005, 06:30 PM
Try this.....put in earplugs. Hit without dampener, then hit with dampener. If sound is the contributing factor then remove it and rely on your other senses to determine if there is a difference.

In racing you would be surprised just exactly what you can hear and feel when you cancel out the noise factor.

This simple experiment may (or may not) help determine if its the harmonic vibration or dynamic vibration that is softened by string dampeners??

zorg
03-27-2005, 06:34 PM
I just tried that. I put ear plugs in my ears, and hit a ball around with no dampener. I deffinetly felt vibrations. Then, i put on the dampener and there was a lot less vibrations.

Noelle
03-27-2005, 07:12 PM
Perhaps a distinction can be made between vibrations from the racquet and vibrations from the strings.

alan-n
03-27-2005, 08:19 PM
I nominate alan-n to do the study ;)

LOL, I'll pass. Anyways, its amazing how much tennis facts end up becoming tennis farts from technique to racquets to strings.... The ear plug test is interesting, you do it yourself, better yet if you prefer music and listen while hitting that will do the same, I feel much more vibration through the leather grip of my racket without the dampener than I do with it.... Wilson PS 6.1 95 with leather grip... go figure.

To each their own.

bamboo
03-27-2005, 08:22 PM
Perhaps a distinction can be made between vibrations from the racquet and vibrations from the strings. Exactly - the string vibrations damped by the grommet or rubber band may produce a sound you don't like, but have no effect on the arm. The Physics and Technology of Tennis confirms this on page 67 with an oscilloscope of two waves showing the frame vibration from a racquet with a dampener in the stingbed and one without - they are identical.

charles_boey
03-27-2005, 08:57 PM
howdy

dampeners only do what they are named after. the kill the string vibrations by dampening it. eg.. a toutly stretch string will vibrate when u pluck at it. but to stop the string from vibrating u put your finger on it and the finger will absorb the vibrations. so that's why sometimes the dampeners actually pop out during play. cause it's absorbing so much vibrations that it just couldn't remain in the slot anymore.

BUT dampeners are not SHOCK ABSORBERS. by shock absorbing i'm referring to the force of the impact that is generated from hitting the ball. so the amount of force generated depends on the construction, design, mass and even the area of impact (off centre hits).

so basically i stand on the side that says tennis elbow has nothing to do with playing with or without a dampener. it might be that a racket is too light (in most cases) or off centre hits.

jura
03-28-2005, 06:22 PM
Then why did I have arm pain when my HH 6.2 didn't have a dampener on it but when it had one on it I didn't feel any pain? Please explain that to me.
It has to do with "comfortable feeling". You get pain in your arm when you don't feel well in moment of hitting the ball. The dampener gives you a different feedback from the racquet. For you this feeling seems to be more comfortable. Your muscles don't cramp (is this the right word?) that much. So the vibrations "hit" a more relaxed muscle. That's why you have no more pain.

donnyz89
03-31-2005, 09:15 AM
you really have understand sound and vibration. my dad is an expert. there cant be SOUND if the strings arnt moving which is a sound WAVE, the dampener will make the wave shorter thus lowering the sound to a deeper pitch. idk if the wave can effect the handle but a very stiff racquet will need one. idk, i wasnt paying too much attention when my dad said it, but its pretty much stopping the string from moving, enough to lower the sound but idk if its enough to make a dif in the game.

barry
03-31-2005, 09:18 AM
So can we conclude from this thread string dampers do nothing and are a waste of time?

If so, I will toss mine out!

charles_boey
03-31-2005, 07:16 PM
i won't say it's a waste of time barry.. sometimes a dampener makes volleying much better by giving it a crisp feel. it's depends on your game really. if u feel that u play better with one..then by all means, pls continue to do so.
as for myself i rarely venture into the net and i hit from the baseline 80% of the time. i don't use a dampener cause it gives me feedback in terms of feel.

:)

35ft6
04-01-2005, 06:36 AM
I just tried that. I put ear plugs in my ears, and hit a ball around with no dampener. I deffinetly felt vibrations. Then, i put on the dampener and there was a lot less vibrations. I definitely FEEL a difference, too. There have been times I've forgotten to put in my dampener when switching rackets and for 5 or 10 minutes I was thinking to myself "dang, my racket feels like crap." It's happened like twice.

I don't quite understand the "it makes less noise but doesn't reduce vibration" argument. The noise is vibration, they're not too different things. And the string is connected to the racket.

DX_Psycho
04-01-2005, 12:15 PM
a lot of people at my school tell me that without it they can feel the MASSIVE SHOCK RUNNING UP THEIR ARMS.

i just tell them it's in their head and go on.

however, i do use a dampener and when i use different dampeners it does feel different to me. i can't explain it. maybe it's just the sound. when there's no pop it makes it feel like it's tighter. i should just wear earplugs and play and see if there's a difference.

my favorite dampener is still the technifibre vibra clip because it sounds so nice.

need2paint
04-01-2005, 12:54 PM
My favorite dampener is also the Tecnifibre vibra-clip.

I don't notice any difference in feel or power or anything with/without dampeners. I use them because I can't stand the sound racquets make without them.

silent bob
04-03-2005, 01:24 AM
Some of my favourite scientists:

Sampras - yes
AA - yes
Hewitt - yes
etc etc etc

Like them, I have my reasons.

gchen
04-03-2005, 10:43 AM
To zorg,
I use the LM prestige and the I prestige. Varying the string may change the vibration...I use wilson NXT and don't get much vibration.

spicyfruit
04-03-2005, 11:55 AM
they reduce not just the ping but also deaden the strings a tad and give a bit more dwell time for those of us who do not accelerate the racket head as fast as the pros...thus a little more control..they do not significantly reduce elboe starin.

I had the opertiona an found the only cure was looser strings and good technique..hitting the ball earlier with bodyweight behind the ball is the only solution...that;s wahy the good guys do not get elbow...hit the ball in front as the coaches say...hesitation involves more efffot and huge strain on elbow...body weight behind ball!!!

AAAA
04-03-2005, 08:03 PM
Exactly - the string vibrations damped by the grommet or rubber band may produce a sound you don't like, but have no effect on the arm. The Physics and Technology of Tennis confirms this on page 67 with an oscilloscope of two waves showing the frame vibration from a racquet with a dampener in the stingbed and one without - they are identical.

Can you recite the entire text relating to the experiment word for word for the benefit of the doubters, i'm one of them?

spicyfruit
04-04-2005, 04:56 AM
However the most improbable devices do actually work..check this out

http://www.tennis-elbow.com/

I have a chronic golfers elbow from years of forcing my forehand and if I haven't been playing for a while or am just having an off day and don't use this thing even if i'm not hitting hard my elbow swells up where the tendon has been reattached on the inside of the elbow (They cut off an inch which had lots of scar tissue and reaatched the tendon a bit further down).


I used to use it in combination with elbow braces (keeping it warm helps) but have found that just wearing it makes a massive difference. I do not have shares in this company by the way.

Plus I string at 53 lbs a 300 g head light racket (Head I tour) as opposed to tigher strings on what they call elbow friendly rackets which are light and head heavy and therfore rather cumbersome usually.

And in winter in England it gets so cold the strings go brittle so I take it down another lb or two.

yes you lose some control but I would normally choose about a 285 g bat like the Wilson H tour. I have gone a bit heavier and loosened the strings to compensate.

Plus i use a string dampener but that's just for feel..i don't like em too pingy.

Am I boring?

xbzzagent
06-29-2007, 08:19 PM
any updates?

jdelcue
06-29-2007, 08:46 PM
It has nothing to do with the handle although with some of these very light stiff racquets it may help a little. When the strings vibrate it makes a pinging sound and some guys dont like that sound so they put in a dampener. I have noticed a slight reduction in power when i use one but its hardly noticable.

I agree with most of this in my case. I'm using a LM Rad OS and I just replaced the strings recently...

Decided to play with and without the clear/red Head logo dampener to see the difference:

1) There is definitely a TINY amount of difference in power (a TAD less is exerted when the vibra dampener is on, for whatever reason -- and only noticeable when you just drop the ball on the bed). But not at all noticeable during real play...

2) There is definitely some vibration that runs through my handle without it.

3) The sound is obviously muted when it's on.


But having said all this...I actually am starting to like the way my stick (with these new strings) feels WITHOUT a vibration dampener. I can play with and without one, but I'm kinda liking the feedback I get without one right now...

jkonecne
07-01-2007, 09:52 PM
Yeah I've heard all kinds of scientists doing studies on sports and things. Yet when I play I find them to be wrong. They try all this high tech stuff yet nothing beats just going out there and doing it the old fashion way; play the damn sport and go from there. Vibration dampeners do more that just stop that annoying sound.

Shinpachi222
07-01-2007, 10:28 PM
The type odf dampener changes your game. A Gamma with that Zorbican stuff will do alot mre to reduse power than a normal, small logo dampener.

migjam
07-01-2007, 10:37 PM
It's funny how many people use dampener's these days. Back in the wood racquet days, I would never of used a dampener, I wanted to be able to hear the ping of the strings.

bagung
07-01-2007, 10:38 PM
happened to buy a japanese made dampener, it explains the dampener takes away the high pitch sound only.....

Andres
07-02-2007, 07:08 AM
I don't have any credentials, or info about it, I just can state my own opinion, from my own experience.

My PS 6.1 vibrates like hell. Vibrated like hell with syn gut, and vibrated lot less with poly, but still vibrated. Had a ping sound, but I was OK with the sound. I liked how the ball bited the strings.

Now I've placed a small dampener, and the feel IS different. The racquet feels, and hits differently. I don't know if it doesn't vibrate or whatever. I don't know if the SHOCK is going to my arm or not, but it DID change the way the ball hits the strings. With the dampener, the racquet feels boardy, and every stroke was hit cleaner, more solid.

I tried the same thing with my PC600, and happened the same thing: the racquet hit cleaner and had a boardy feel.

That's my experience. I decided to stick with dampeners. It made me feel the stroke a little bit more.

I don't know if it vibrates less, or reduces the shock, or WHAT THE HELL does it do for real.... But it IS different. The way the ball impacts the stringbed IS different. And it feels different.

Bobble
07-02-2007, 08:31 AM
lets get back to the original statement. Actually, many pros obviously do use dampeners...especially the young guns. Other than murray, it seems to me that Nadal, Djokovic, Gasquet, Bagdhatis, Monfils, Berdych all use dampeners, so to say that pros dont use them is silly.

And an interesting side note is that there seems to be small correlations across some nations. I.E. most russian and argentine players don't use them and yet Croats, Spai*****, and Frenchmen seem to use them more.

Andres
07-02-2007, 08:34 AM
And an interesting side note is that there seems to be small correlations across some nations. I.E. most russian and argentine players don't use them and yet Croats, Spai*****, and Frenchmen seem to use them more.
Not so sure. Acasuso, Puerta, Squillari, Gaudio used them. Not so sure if Acasuso still uses it, and I'm not sure about Zabaleta.

Nalbandian, Caņas, Coria and Chela don't use them ;)

Bobble
07-02-2007, 12:01 PM
Not so sure. Acasuso, Puerta, Squillari, Gaudio used them. Not so sure if Acasuso still uses it, and I'm not sure about Zabaleta.

Nalbandian, Caņas, Coria and Chela don't use them ;)

lets see, in the current top 100, nalbandian, coria, canas, calleri, monaco, zabaleta, berlocq, vassallo-arguello, guzman, and roitman all play without dampeners.

only chela, acasuso, gaudio, del potro, and hartfield use them. Call me crazy but i think that clarifies my point that Most argentines play without dampeners

Hessam
07-02-2007, 01:11 PM
I definitely FEEL a difference, too. There have been times I've forgotten to put in my dampener when switching rackets and for 5 or 10 minutes I was thinking to myself "dang, my racket feels like crap." It's happened like twice.

I don't quite understand the "it makes less noise but doesn't reduce vibration" argument. The noise is vibration, they're not too different things. And the string is connected to the racket.

I agree... the noise is sound waves as a result of actual physical vibrations....so when you put on a dampener and hear less noise...it's effectively because there are less actual physical vibrations to produce that noise.

jkonecne
07-02-2007, 05:39 PM
I agree... the noise is sound waves as a result of actual physical vibrations....so when you put on a dampener and hear less noise...it's effectively because there are less actual physical vibrations to produce that noise.

Exactly, maybe it's just some people can feel the vibration and other people can't. Either way it still does more than control the sound.

phamphihung
07-03-2007, 10:28 AM
Guys,

Read this.

The effect of tennis racket string vibration dampers on racket handle vibrations and discomfort following impacts
Authors: Claire L. Stroede; Larry Noble; Hugh S. Walker
DOI: 10.1080/026404199365894
Publication Frequency: 14 issues per year
Published in: Journal of Sports Sciences, Volume 17, Issue 5 May 1999 , pages 379 - 385
Subject: Sport & Exercise Science;
Number of References: 15
Formats available: PDF (English)
Purchase Article: US$25.00 - buy now add to cart [ show other buying options ]

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Abstract
In this study, we evaluated the effect of the use of tennis racket string vibration dampers on racket handle vibrations, and perceptions of hand and arm discomfort experienced by tennis players owing to stationary racket impacts. Twenty tennis players (10 males, 10 females) aged 18-29 years volunteered for the study. Two different racket models were impacted at the geometric centre of the racket face and 100 mm distal to the centre both with and without string vibration dampers in place. The participants could neither see nor hear the impacts, and they indicated their discomfort immediately after each impact using a visual analogue scale. An analysis of variance (2x2x2 factorial) was performed on the scaled discomfort ratings with the factors damping condition, racket type and impact location. No significant differences in discomfort ratings between damped and undamped impacts or between the two racket types were found. Also, central impacts were found to be more comfortable than impacts 100 mm distal to the centre (P< 0.05). There were no significant interaction effects. Vibration traces from an accelerometer mounted on the racket handle revealed that string vibration dampers quickly absorbed high-frequency string vibration without attenuating the lower-frequency frame vibration. In conclusion, we found no evidence to support the contention that string vibration dampers reduce hand and arm impact discomfort.

Hessam
07-05-2007, 02:20 PM
I have tried all the vibration dampeneres out there, and I like the feel of the rubber band, and the "REAL PETE SAMPRAS Vibration dampener" (not the fake unique ones), better than all of them.

All the other dampeners including the Unique Pete Sampra Dampener, deaden the string bed too much for my taste.

I feel like the electrical cable grommets give the best feel from my string bed. Plus you can get them in differernt sizes ( 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch, 1/2 inch, etc...) to fit the string pattern of your tennis racket.

For example on my prestige I use the 3/8 inch size grommets. but when I played with a more open string pattern I used the 1/2 inch size grommets.

the feel i like the best is for the dampener to push against the strings gently, but not press to hard against them. that way you get the best combination of feel, and noise/vibration deadening.