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View Full Version : Another good one for the USTA!!


srvnvoley
07-12-2009, 02:56 PM
Not gonna mention te state or the region. But this weekend my firend participated in 4.5 regional tournament. Found out that a singles player had participated in satellite/challenger tournaments from 1993-2004. Filed appeal against player. Here is the USTA respnse.
We acknowledge his previous tennis experience = yes we know hes was a pro
Due to his recent results we will not DQ him at this time= He can drop games
He will be bumped at end of year = you wont have to face him next year
The kicker is if you look up his results he hides in doubles for most of year except for 4 singles matches in which he loses no more than 3 games. He wins first matc at regionals 6-2 6-2 against benchmark. After appeal is known he some how loses a set in his next singles match, very interesting. Then says he has broken toe plays doubles and wins easy. Then in the finals by some sort of miracle the toe heals and he beats another benchmark 6-1 6-1. Its not sour grapes over my friends team lost it is for guys like me and others that cant play any tennis because USTA says we are to good. Before you know it the highest level will be 3.5.

Steady Eddy
07-12-2009, 03:56 PM
I don't know that I'd blame the USTA. If so many people are determined to sandbag, what can be done? I don't get the player's motivation, though. If you're a former professional, what fun is there in winning 4.5 matches? Wouldn't he even damage his tennis reputation more by playing at the 4.5 level than he would enhance it by winning there? People are weird.

zapvor
07-13-2009, 07:22 AM
its something you have to live with. you know theres tons of sandbagging. personally i relish the chance to play against someone much better.

raiden031
07-13-2009, 07:43 AM
Whats unfortunate is that these players don't have alot of choice but to sandbag. So many areas only go up to 4.5 due to lack of available players at higher levels. So that handful of 5.0+ players either doesn't play competitively without traveling great distances, or they have to sandbag at 4.5. There's no point in creating a 5.0 league in an area with like 5 players good enough to play in the league. I think people should just get over it because the sandbaggers are always a small minority anyways, and most matches should be between at-level players.

srvnvoley
07-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Read this again. He is not a 5.0 he is not some ex college player. Everyteam there this weekend has thhose guys. Especially at that level everyone walks the line and pushes the rules. There were many matches that I watched where all four players were definetely 5.0's. This guy was not he was a proffesional player that played the circuit on and off for 10 years. Thats not a challenge to play even if you were a consistent college player, thats just not even close to being in the spirirt of the game.

JavierLW
07-13-2009, 08:38 AM
Whats unfortunate is that these players don't have alot of choice but to sandbag. So many areas only go up to 4.5 due to lack of available players at higher levels. So that handful of 5.0+ players either doesn't play competitively without traveling great distances, or they have to sandbag at 4.5. There's no point in creating a 5.0 league in an area with like 5 players good enough to play in the league. I think people should just get over it because the sandbaggers are always a small minority anyways, and most matches should be between at-level players.

That's a silly excuse, especially for someone with the resume that supposably this guy has.

There are tons of Open Level tournaments out there. Depending on where they live they could probably play one every single week and do quite well. That's why they are "OPEN" level.

The reason why there may not be too many players at 5.0 or "Open" in most areas is that those players just dont bother playing League tennis. They tend to concentrate on tournaments.

Your argument is flawed because where do you draw the line? What if there is no 4.5 level, then it's okay for them to play 4.0?

Besides the fairness aspect of it, it's also not fair to 4.5 players because they have no chance at getting moved down to 4.0 (if that's where they belong) if they keep "winning" free games to sandbaggers.

That's just life, people need to realize that just because it happens to benefit you (because "unfortunally" you supposably have no where to go), that doesnt make it right.

JoelDali
07-13-2009, 08:44 AM
I'm on the phone with my attorneys now. We're going to move forward with a lawsuit on your team's behalf.

The punitive damages will certainly reach 10 figures.

Hopefully the USTA has good insurance.

I smell victory for all NTRP GOATS who are subjected to play former pros and experience great pain and mental suffering. Its simply unfair.

http://northerndoctor.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/401px-ripe_grapes.jpg

raiden031
07-13-2009, 08:47 AM
That's a silly excuse, especially for someone with the resume that supposably this guy has.

There are tons of Open Level tournaments out there. Depending on where they live they could probably play one every single week and do quite well. That's why they are "OPEN" level.

The reason why there may not be too many players at 5.0 or "Open" in most areas is that those players just dont bother playing League tennis. They tend to concentrate on tournaments.

Your argument is flawed because where do you draw the line? What if there is no 4.5 level, then it's okay for them to play 4.0?

Besides the fairness aspect of it, it's also not fair to 4.5 players because they have no chance at getting moved down to 4.0 (if that's where they belong) if they keep "winning" free games to sandbaggers.

That's just life, people need to realize that just because it happens to benefit you (because "unfortunally" you supposably have no where to go), that doesnt make it right.

The line is drawn where there are enough players to have a tournament draw, or league. I don't see what the big deal is. I have run into more players in tournaments who are too weak for their division than players who are too strong for it. That has got to be almost equally as frustrating.

I think its wrong for any player to tank games and/or matches as well. But I don't think a 4.5 who plays lets say 8 matches and only 1 or 2 of them are sandbaggers has alot to complain about.

gameboy
07-13-2009, 08:51 AM
Is winning really that important?

To me, a chance to play against a former pro in a competitive environment is a pretty good tradeoff for getting my butt whupped. A lot of people will actually PAY to have the experience.

How important is winning really when we are not exactly talking about Wimbledon here?

ronray43
07-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Until the USTA figures out the bottom line is about winning and losing, and modifies the secret forumla to account for this, NTRP will remain a cluster. Think Federer cares about how close his Wimbledon final was in 2008 or Roddick cares about how close the 2009 Wimbledon final was? . . . . nope, either you win or you lose.

Baseball, football, basketball, etc., etc., etc., closeness of the games are irrelevant--one team wins, one team loses, and ranking, playoffs, draft choices, etc., are based on win/loss records. Even in pro tennis, winning and losing are all that count for ranking points and dollars--would be nice if our rankings and NTRP ratings were based on the same.

But noooooo, as long as a guy drops a set or two here and there and tanks a few games per set, he can go 100 - 0 over the course of a year and not get moved up--and the USTA thinks this is how it should be . . . .

JoelDali
07-13-2009, 09:02 AM
No doubt. I look forward to the open tourneys. Its fun playing against people that are way above you. In corporate league this year I beat a strong 5.5 guy simply because my game is elevated when I play better people. I actually play better against better players. When I play 3.5 cheeseballers, my game drops to their level for some stupid reason and find myself unable to turn their pace around.

I do not think it is fair at all for a former pro to be playing 4.5. But, how good was he? Unbelievably good? Good enough to beat any 4.5 in the entire league?

Look, the USTA leagues are a joke. Don't take it so serious. Be happy to play good players, it sucks to lose, yes, but its not the end of the world. Whats one loss? Win the other 4 matches and you've got the victory.

JoelDali
07-13-2009, 09:05 AM
I guess the USTA needs to have a hidden roaming referree at every match to gauge NTRP. I guess thats the only way to really root out all these destroyers of fair play.

rod99
07-13-2009, 12:01 PM
if he filled out his tennis history fully when he self-rated then there is no way that the appeal would have bumped him down to a 4.5 (well, unless he's like 65+ years old or has had his knees replaced). i don't see how that is possible.

OrangePower
07-13-2009, 02:51 PM
Not gonna mention te state or the region. But this weekend my firend participated in 4.5 regional tournament. Found out that a singles player had participated in satellite/challenger tournaments from 1993-2004. Filed appeal against player. Here is the USTA respnse.
We acknowledge his previous tennis experience = yes we know hes was a pro
Due to his recent results we will not DQ him at this time= He can drop games
He will be bumped at end of year = you wont have to face him next year
The kicker is if you look up his results he hides in doubles for most of year except for 4 singles matches in which he loses no more than 3 games. He wins first matc at regionals 6-2 6-2 against benchmark. After appeal is known he some how loses a set in his next singles match, very interesting. Then says he has broken toe plays doubles and wins easy. Then in the finals by some sort of miracle the toe heals and he beats another benchmark 6-1 6-1. Its not sour grapes over my friends team lost it is for guys like me and others that cant play any tennis because USTA says we are to good. Before you know it the highest level will be 3.5.

Probably not the same guy (unless by extreme coincidence), but...

I have a friend who was playing satellites several years ago until severe shoulder injury caused him to completely give up the game for a few years. Then a couple of years ago he started playing again, but as a leftie (he is naturally right handed). Given his natural ability, it only took him two years to get to 4.5 as a leftie, which is where he now plays. Needless to say though, he is nowhere near the player he used to be when playing right handed.

Not saying this is the case with the guy in the OP, but sometimes there's more than meets the eye. But it sure is easy to complain against the USTA and sandbaggers though :-)

HookEmJeff
07-13-2009, 10:43 PM
The line is drawn where there are enough players to have a tournament draw, or league. I don't see what the big deal is. I have run into more players in tournaments who are too weak for their division than players who are too strong for it. That has got to be almost equally as frustrating.

I think its wrong for any player to tank games and/or matches as well. But I don't think a 4.5 who plays lets say 8 matches and only 1 or 2 of them are sandbaggers has alot to complain about.

So Raiden, what if both of those 2 matches are at a Section Championships or a National Championship event and you're on the opposite side? How would you have felt at your 3.0 National last year if you had run into a true 4.5 player? I'm not sure how old this Florida person is that this thread was started about...but if this guy is around 35 or under...it's a supreme joke! How long has this guy been in the computer?

The crux of this whole matter is policing abnormalities at the LOCAL level. If these captains wait for stuff to iron out at the end of the season, it's too late usually for them and certainly for the others who will face these beasts. Three matches in and players are in the system and become untouchable at this point (especially if they have score managed).

So, note to Captains: Really scrutinize your player's history and those of opposing players. Ask questions. And be sure players are filling out their ratings properly under the Elite Player Guidelines. On the flipside of that, make sure opposing captains are doing the same. No one wants to be the bad guy, but a former DI guy comes into your 4.5 league at 28 years old, red flags should be going up all over the place and something should be done. I thought I recalled someone in here saying that there were players like that (late 20-something strong strong DI guys) on the Southern team that won the 4.5 Nationals last year.

I really don't have much sympathy for 3.5's getting beat by 4.0's. I do have sympathy watching a 4.5 player get throttled by a former top level NCAA player or certainly a professional player held out or hid in doubles and basically out there for "ringer purposes" ...likely because that pro player decided he had no competitive options and likely because the captain was hunting for a ringer to help him get his water bottle and towel from the National championships.

Since most 4.5 players are pretty solid players and have skills and weapons, it's not as obvious or thought of as bad when someone whoops them up pretty badly. But, from what I have seen of League tennis, 4.5 possesses as many (if not more and certainly more egregioous) out of level players. Steady Eddy makes a good point ---why would a player at that level really want a 4.5 champion's trophy? That'd be like Federer winning a USTA Pro Circuit event in Godfrey, Ill. and getting psyched.

5.0 and Open levels suffer from relatively low numbers nationally as it is a difficult number to attain in the computer. It takes a lot of wins over good players, especially if you're climbing the ladder. I would also argue the 5.0 and above levels suffer from an extreme apathy (usually by the players themselves) when it comes towards organizing teams as well. I live in Phoenix and there are NO 5.0 teams in the city. You're trying to tell me in one of the largest cities in the US there are no 5.0's? Gimme a break. There are certainly enough to form at least a couple of teams.

It's the players themselves who see 5.0 as the tipping point giving up. For some reason, the bulk of these players tend to be teaching pros, not regular Joes, and tennis pros aren't exactly lining up to rush into competition at that level. Ever heard the "playing pro is a hungry pro" line?

5.0 and Open should be a badge of honor, especially for a "graduated club player". It shouldn't be a death sentence for your league play, but it does seem to be.


Jeff

HookEmJeff
07-13-2009, 10:56 PM
Until the USTA figures out the bottom line is about winning and losing, and modifies the secret forumla to account for this, NTRP will remain a cluster. Think Federer cares about how close his Wimbledon final was in 2008 or Roddick cares about how close the 2009 Wimbledon final was? . . . . nope, either you win or you lose.

Baseball, football, basketball, etc., etc., etc., closeness of the games are irrelevant--one team wins, one team loses, and ranking, playoffs, draft choices, etc., are based on win/loss records. Even in pro tennis, winning and losing are all that count for ranking points and dollars--would be nice if our rankings and NTRP ratings were based on the same.

But noooooo, as long as a guy drops a set or two here and there and tanks a few games per set, he can go 100 - 0 over the course of a year and not get moved up--and the USTA thinks this is how it should be . . . .

I'm about 125% sure the USTA doesn't think this is how it should be. They can't be in 500,000 places at once watching every match with trained eyes.

This is, in a sense, like cheating on your taxes or exploiting loopholes in the system. People pay a lot of money to find those....so they can what???...have more money! Does that make it right? Of course not.

You would really hope players would have the integrity to, in a sense, not "cheat on their taxes", but that's not very likely. And you can't design a system that's going to fool the cheaters without penalizing the honest, hard-working guys. You would think honor of competition would prevail when the prevailing sense is you're out of level (re: you've played at the NCAA National championships, played and succeeded at even a minor league pro level).

There's also the counter to that---just like the other poster with the grapes image said (very nice by the way). Some people think that they must win everything. To them they are in the right level when they are winning 95% of their matches. WRONG! You're in the right level when it's a 50-50 toss-up everytime you take the court.


Jeff

JavierLW
07-14-2009, 07:06 AM
Until the USTA figures out the bottom line is about winning and losing, and modifies the secret forumla to account for this, NTRP will remain a cluster. Think Federer cares about how close his Wimbledon final was in 2008 or Roddick cares about how close the 2009 Wimbledon final was? . . . . nope, either you win or you lose.

Baseball, football, basketball, etc., etc., etc., closeness of the games are irrelevant--one team wins, one team loses, and ranking, playoffs, draft choices, etc., are based on win/loss records. Even in pro tennis, winning and losing are all that count for ranking points and dollars--would be nice if our rankings and NTRP ratings were based on the same.

But noooooo, as long as a guy drops a set or two here and there and tanks a few games per set, he can go 100 - 0 over the course of a year and not get moved up--and the USTA thinks this is how it should be . . . .

You seem to be yet another person who doesnt know the difference between a RANKING (a way of ordering players by who's the best), and a RATING (a number which competitive skill level).

Sure Federer gets to be #1 because he wins all the time but they dont put him in his own very special league.

If a match is competitive then those two players belong at the same level. (that's why it's called a SKILL RATING) It doesnt matter who won or lost.

If you assume that every single person with a winning record that doesnt get moved up is cheating and sandbagging then you are just being paranoid and crazy.

JavierLW
07-14-2009, 07:09 AM
There's also the counter to that---just like the other poster with the grapes image said (very nice by the way). Some people think that they must win everything. To them they are in the right level when they are winning 95% of their matches. WRONG! You're in the right level when it's a 50-50 toss-up everytime you take the court.


Jeff

No, actually you are both wrong. You are in the right level when all of your matches are truely competitive (baring sandbagging and intergalactic interference), it doesnt matter if you win or not.

The league has that part right, others dont because they can only focus on winning or losing. (the same people sometimes who just cant get over the hump at their level are the people you are talking about who would love to get moved down and slaughter everyone at the next lowest level)

ronray43
07-14-2009, 08:17 AM
It might be different in your sections, but we have many 4.0s in the Colorado Intermountain section who routinely to 25-1 or 25-2 year after year and never get moved up. Then we have quite a few guys like me who are 0-8 this year and haven't won a set, were 1-15 last year and won a couple of sets, and the same thing the year before, but we keep getting rated the same as the guys going 25-1 year after year. All I'm saying is that win-loss record should have some role in the NTRP computation formula and that it should count for something, although not everything, in the NTRP rating computation formula.

I did send an algorithm that would do this fairly to the USTA national office, and did receive a response, but they clearly believe win/loss records should have no role in NTRP computation, even for those folks going 25-1 or 0-25 on a regular basis.

Will find the paper I submitted to the USTA and post the proposed win/loss adjustment algorithm to the forum so you can take a look.

ttbrowne
07-14-2009, 08:51 AM
My guess is he knows someone at the USTA who is taking care of him. You caught the guy and they're covering their tracks by moving him up for next year. Until someone files suit against the USTA, and it makes it to court will we know of all their shady dealings.

OrangePower
07-14-2009, 08:59 AM
Regardless of what we think is fair or not, the NTRP algorithm works based on games won/lost differential in each match, not on the outcome of the match. As Javier has explained, it makes zero difference who actually wins or loses the match.

In fact, you can lose a match and still have your rating go up. The more obvious way is if you lose a close match to a player who has a higher dynamic rating than you. Even though you lose, if you lose by less then the computer thinks you ought to, your rating will increase.

The less obvious way is if you play someone with an identical dynamic rating, and lose say 6-2 6-7 1-6. The rating algorithm counts the third set as a single game going to the winner. So according to the computer, in this case you won 6+6+0=12 games, and your opponent 2+7+1=10 games. Meaning that the outcome is considered by the computer as favorable to the loser!

The ironic thing is that a player going 25-1 could actually have his/her rating drop during the course of the season, and conversely a player going 0-25 could see their rating increase! Not very likely but still possible...

raiden031
07-14-2009, 08:59 AM
So Raiden, what if both of those 2 matches are at a Section Championships or a National Championship event and you're on the opposite side? How would you have felt at your 3.0 National last year if you had run into a true 4.5 player? I'm not sure how old this Florida person is that this thread was started about...but if this guy is around 35 or under...it's a supreme joke! How long has this guy been in the computer?


I honestly expected to face some serious ringers at Nationals (mainly because of all the talk on this board), so it wouldn't have bothered me one bit because I was there for the fun of the event. I was actually surprised that my team was so dominant so it was just icing on the cake that we went the distance.

rod99
07-14-2009, 09:00 AM
our 4.5 team in north carolina is pretty solid but at the state tournament, we keep running into self-rated ringers who played Div I college tennis. for next year, i'm going to research every self-rated player on each section's top team to find out if they did play div 1 tennis. then i'm filing an appeal early in the regular season. if you wait until right b/f the state tournament to file an appeal then it's too late (they might get DQed after the tournament but they can still play in the tournament).

JavierLW
07-14-2009, 10:19 AM
I honestly expected to face some serious ringers at Nationals (mainly because of all the talk on this board), so it wouldn't have bothered me one bit because I was there for the fun of the event. I was actually surprised that my team was so dominant so it was just icing on the cake that we went the distance.

That's what typically happens when YOU are the ones who are the serious ringers. :-)

JoelDali
07-14-2009, 11:12 AM
for next year, i'm going to research every self-rated player on each section's top team to find out if they did play div 1 tennis. then i'm filing an appeal early in the regular season. if you wait until right b/f the state tournament to file an appeal then it's too late (they might get DQed after the tournament but they can still play in the tournament).

Good work, here is your badge.

http://rlv.zcache.com/hall_monitor_star_badge_button-p145466952915923681t5sj_400.jpg

JLyon
07-14-2009, 03:27 PM
I am guessing a proper appeal was not filed and sufficient evidence was not presented. If you were to file a grievance now officially provide documentation (Paper, Ranking, Results on Pro Level) then it is cut and dry. Just telling the coordinators that said player played Challengers is not good enough, you need paper trail in order to win appeal otherwise it is heresay.

sgulla
07-15-2009, 07:40 AM
Whats unfortunate is that these players don't have alot of choice but to sandbag. So many areas only go up to 4.5 due to lack of available players at higher levels. So that handful of 5.0+ players either doesn't play competitively without traveling great distances, or they have to sandbag at 4.5. There's no point in creating a 5.0 league in an area with like 5 players good enough to play in the league. I think people should just get over it because the sandbaggers are always a small minority anyways, and most matches should be between at-level players.

Exactly. I moved to CT recently and was told you won't play any tennis if you stay rated at 5.0 and above. No more 5.0 leagues in the state so EVERYONE plays in the 4.5 league.

LuckyR
07-15-2009, 08:11 AM
Whats unfortunate is that these players don't have alot of choice but to sandbag. So many areas only go up to 4.5 due to lack of available players at higher levels. So that handful of 5.0+ players either doesn't play competitively without traveling great distances, or they have to sandbag at 4.5. There's no point in creating a 5.0 league in an area with like 5 players good enough to play in the league. I think people should just get over it because the sandbaggers are always a small minority anyways, and most matches should be between at-level players.



This makes sense in Idaho, but the OP is from Florida. If there isn't a 5.0 league in Florida, we are all in trouble. The guy is an A-1 loser of the highest degree.

zapvor
07-15-2009, 08:17 AM
Is winning really that important?

To me, a chance to play against a former pro in a competitive environment is a pretty good tradeoff for getting my butt whupped. A lot of people will actually PAY to have the experience.

How important is winning really when we are not exactly talking about Wimbledon here?

thats my sentiments exactly

raiden031
07-15-2009, 10:38 AM
That's what typically happens when YOU are the ones who are the serious ringers. :-)

It isn't what it seems (I know we've all heard that before).

Most of our players from this team are only mediocre 3.5s even a year later. There are only 2 self-rated players that I would say were ringers, and one of them went from beginner to solid 4.0 in 2 years time. Can't completely blame him since when he joined the team he had been playing for like 6 months total. The other guy might've been good enough to play at 4.0, but he did have some competitive matches at Nationals, as did I and I was computer-rated. So while we were the best team, we didn't win all our matches easily, but depth played a huge role as well. We had more depth than most other teams so we were fresher on courts in the hot weather.