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CourtingYou
07-13-2009, 05:11 PM
So I tried to find this in already made threads but I couldn't seem to. I was just wondering if USTA tournaments are in seasons (like yearly seasons or something) and if after each season the points are deleted and you have to start over? Or if when you age up the points are deleted and you have to start over at that age level? I guess its not really fair if aging made you lose points but I just want to make sure.

ClarkC
07-13-2009, 06:55 PM
So I tried to find this in already made threads but I couldn't seem to. I was just wondering if USTA tournaments are in seasons (like yearly seasons or something) and if after each season the points are deleted and you have to start over? Or if when you age up the points are deleted and you have to start over at that age level? I guess its not really fair if aging made you lose points but I just want to make sure.

You lose points when you age up. How could it work any other way? How long do you think a 13 or 14 year old should get credit for beating 10 and 11 year old players back when he was in the 12 and unders, for example? How would you compare his points to the points of a player who has not played 12 and under for more than a year?

Sorry, but the "not fair" whine is getting very old to my older generation ears.

CourtingYou
07-13-2009, 07:12 PM
Maybe you didn't understand. I was suggesting that it would be unfair if they lost all the points. Like if someone was born in July and in the middle of the year they lost all their points which would set them in an impossible position to regain a top ranking.

tennismom42
07-13-2009, 08:12 PM
Maybe you didn't understand. I was suggesting that it would be unfair if they lost all the points. Like if someone was born in July and in the middle of the year they lost all their points which would set them in an impossible position to regain a top ranking.

points reset after 365 days. So then the same tournament's results are NOT showing up in the "pot" at the same time. So, let's say someone is 14, but they want a challenge & play in a 16s, during Spring 2008. Then, in Spring 2009, they are playing that tournament for real -- they are similar age (15 -16) as all others. The results of Spring 2009 show up & the Spring 2008 fall off. Now it's not uncommon for someone to play the same tournament 3 times. So, Spring 2010 rolls around, they can & should play it again.

Contact someone at your sectional office & they will have someone explain the points to you. Know the endorsement requirements too!

Your section may have circuits or compass draw tournaments. ALWAYS do those as they are a guarantee of at least 4 matches. Also, ALWAYS do doubles as those wins count toward singles rankings.

about a week ago I posted some stuff on endorsement requirements. You could go read those. Either click on my handle & read my history or search for "endorsement" on the Search button.

Good luck & be leary of chasing points. Play to get better.

CourtingYou
07-14-2009, 10:11 AM
points reset after 365 days. So then the same tournament's results are NOT showing up in the "pot" at the same time. So, let's say someone is 14, but they want a challenge & play in a 16s, during Spring 2008. Then, in Spring 2009, they are playing that tournament for real -- they are similar age (15 -16) as all others. The results of Spring 2009 show up & the Spring 2008 fall off. Now it's not uncommon for someone to play the same tournament 3 times. So, Spring 2010 rolls around, they can & should play it again.

Contact someone at your sectional office & they will have someone explain the points to you. Know the endorsement requirements too!

Your section may have circuits or compass draw tournaments. ALWAYS do those as they are a guarantee of at least 4 matches. Also, ALWAYS do doubles as those wins count toward singles rankings.

about a week ago I posted some stuff on endorsement requirements. You could go read those. Either click on my handle & read my history or search for "endorsement" on the Search button.

Good luck & be leary of chasing points. Play to get better.

Awesome information. Thank you so much.

10isDad
07-14-2009, 11:11 AM
tennismom42's advice is sage. I would like to clarify something, however.

Say you're 14 and turn 15 on August 18th (just picked a day out of the air). If you have only played 14s events (never played up in another age group), you will lose ALL your points on August 1st - not just points >365 days.. For this reason, while it is wise to play in your own age group unless you're really a top player, it is also wise to play some events in older age groups prior to aging up. Most kids tend to play weaker, smaller local events in a higher age group as a way of getting the most amount of points (deserved or not) in the least number of tournaments.

tennismom42 is also keen to point out she prefers tennisrecruiting.net's (TRN)ratings over USTA rankings. Because TRN is graduating class based instead of age based, the same is NOT true for TRN ratings. Because you're not "aging up", all your previous 12 months point totals will continue to appear within the guidelines of how TRN tallies their ratings.

So, if you don't ever play up, you would go to zero points when you age up for the USTA, however, you would maintain a similar TRN ranking.

Make sense? This is one of the reasons you see what appear to be big upsets in national tournaments. Some pretty good players are only playing national tournaments in their age group, therefore when they age up, their national ranking tends to be pretty low. If/when they get into national tournaments, these same players often beat much higher ranked players (including seeds).

tennismom42
07-14-2009, 04:26 PM
......

Make sense? This is one of the reasons you see what appear to be big upsets in national tournaments. Some pretty good players are only playing national tournaments in their age group, therefore when they age up, their national ranking tends to be pretty low. If/when they get into national tournaments, these same players often beat much higher ranked players (including seeds).

this brings to mind another problem with the USTA rankings. The inclusion of doubles points in a competitor's rankings sometimes over-inflates the perception of their rankings/abilities. For instance, a comptetitor's "bucket" may include a lot of doubles points, which causes them to get seeded in singles. This causes early-round upsets. (They got seeded because of the # of points in their "bucket," but they didn't have the (singles) ability (yet) to hold their singles seeding.)

SoCalDominates
07-14-2009, 05:44 PM
this brings to mind another problem with the USTA rankings. The inclusion of doubles points in a competitor's rankings sometimes over-inflates the perception of their rankings/abilities. For instance, a comptetitor's "bucket" may include a lot of doubles points, which causes them to get seeded in singles. This causes early-round upsets. (They got seeded because of the # of points in their "bucket," but they didn't have the (singles) ability (yet) to hold their singles seeding.)

while this is true, remember that only 15% of doubles points count for singles, so its pretty rare to find someone way over ranked due to doubles

tennismom42
07-14-2009, 07:15 PM
while this is true, remember that only 15% of doubles points count for singles, so its pretty rare to find someone way over ranked due to doubles

estimated # of times my son was seeded at a national and lost 1st round = approx 6 times. Each time we were shocked & upset that he was seeded. Each time it was because he had "bought" his way up the rankings with doubles.

While they only count for 15%, it does happen.

CourtingYou
07-14-2009, 07:28 PM
Brilliant. The point system is extremely clear to me now. With the endorsements requirements are you referring to the endorsement list or to brand sponsorships? i understand the sponsorships but I don't quite get the endorsement list. I think I saw a thread about it though. I guess I'll go check that out. You all are such great help.

SoCalDominates
07-14-2009, 07:30 PM
estimated # of times my son was seeded at a national and lost 1st round = approx 6 times. Each time we were shocked & upset that he was seeded. Each time it was because he had "bought" his way up the rankings with doubles.

While they only count for 15%, it does happen.

haha why wouldnt you want your son to be seeded? what is he ranked?

tennismom42
07-14-2009, 08:49 PM
haha why wouldnt you want your son to be seeded? what is he ranked?

He's been top 100 for about a year now in 18s.

There are times when it's nice to be seeded and there are times when it sucks. If you get seeded because 60% of your points are in doubles, it doesn't mean you're a great singles player (yet). Still people buy into the farse that seedings mean something (in USTA rankings). I don't!

Right now, approximately 50% of the tournaments in his rankings "bucket" are doubles wins. So does that ranking make him a good singles player or a bad singles player? You tell me. I understand the USTA's position to encourage players to participate in more doubles. It is a great idea. I just think they should have the software to create a separate rankings system (again) that is just a doubles rankings.

After all my soap-box rants on this site, you really don't know how I prefer the accuracy of TRN to the USTA system? oops, there I go again, being confrontational again. Look out, ....here come the ranking-system-comparison warmongerers.

Here's my standard challenge: give me 1 week before any national, pick the tournament. I'll draw up the stats of USTA seeds vs. what TRN rankings are. I still assert that TRN will have a more accurate prediction of those kids' wins vs. the USTA seeds.