PDA

View Full Version : What wins you the most points when Serving?


In D Zone
07-14-2009, 03:08 PM
I wanted to take a poll and your NTRP rating. Do you think having a Roddick like serve would get you more 'W's or easy point?
Or, do you think going with placement using average speed serve is the key on earning those quick points.

Why do you go for the big serve? Was it to get more ace? Do you think you can win the set by having more aces?

How good and effective is your 2nd serve?

mikegaotennis
07-14-2009, 03:17 PM
first serve: pick a corner, hit it as hard as you can while maintaining a fluid, controlled motion

second serve: get it to the backhand side, don't give on the racket speed

pvaudio
07-14-2009, 03:20 PM
First serve is always my flat serve into one of the corners of the box. The second serve is always a mild kicker to whatever wing is garbage that day. I say mild kicker because Just having a load of spin on the ball doesn't do ****, you need pace on it still to make it effective. Note Andy Murray's second serve vs. Federer's second serve: Murray has almost no pace on it so it just sits up and floats for people to attack it. Federer's had the same spin, but he drives it into the court at the same time making it particularly effective.

Claudius
07-14-2009, 03:24 PM
I normally serve about 5 aces per match on average. I believe I'm a normal 4.5, maybe 4.0. I use my serve to get free points. If I hit a powerful serve and place it well, my opponent may shank the return or hit a short one which would allow me to hit an easy put away shot and ever so often my serve turns out to be an ace!

My 2nd serve is always a kick serve. I hit it with a mixture of topspin and slice which causes it to curve to the left and kick right. My 2nd serve usually comes back, but if I hit it with a lot of spin, which I usually do, it bounces above my opponent's head and they usually shank the ball or hit a poor return.

I recently improved my serve (both 1st and 2nd) and it made my game much more easier to execute.

Just a word of advice, my 2nd serve improved dramatically when I did this. I tossed the ball slightly to the left and behind me and swung my racquet as if I was going to throw the racquet out of the court. The ball clears the net by about 3 ft but kick's outward and to the right like crazy! When I first started doing this. My opponent gave me a "Are you kidding me?!?" type of look. It's a beauty to watch your opponent reach up to handle a ball like that. I'll post some videos soon.

Claudius
07-14-2009, 03:25 PM
You need to accelerate the racquet on your 2nd serve - swing as fast as you can.

pvaudio
07-14-2009, 03:42 PM
I normally serve about 5 aces per match on average. I believe I'm a normal 4.5, maybe 4.0. I use my serve to get free points. If I hit a powerful serve and place it well, my opponent may shank the return or hit a short one which would allow me to hit an easy put away shot and ever so often my serve turns out to be an ace!

My 2nd serve is always a kick serve. I hit it with a mixture of topspin and slice which causes it to curve to the left and kick right. My 2nd serve usually comes back, but if I hit it with a lot of spin, which I usually do, it bounces above my opponent's head and they usually shank the ball or hit a poor return.

I recently improved my serve (both 1st and 2nd) and it made my game much more easier to execute.

Just a word of advice, my 2nd serve improved dramatically when I did this. I tossed the ball slightly to the left and behind me and swung my racquet as if I was going to throw the racquet out of the court. The ball clears the net by about 3 ft but kick's outward and to the right like crazy! When I first started doing this. My opponent gave me a "Are you kidding me?!?" type of look. It's a beauty to watch your opponent reach up to handle a ball like that. I'll post some videos soon.Just a word of advice, be EXTREMELY careful. That movement gets you a HUGE load of spin. Unfortunately, it puts a HUGE load on your rorator cuff. Look at Patrick Rafter's second serve. That ball kicks like a soccer player. Look at Patrick Rafter's MRI before his rotator cuff surgery, and then consider if it's worth it.

edit: I did not mean to lead in my paragraph the same way as you did lol

ZPTennis
07-14-2009, 04:19 PM
I normally serve about 5 aces per match on average. I believe I'm a normal 4.5, maybe 4.0. I use my serve to get free points. If I hit a powerful serve and place it well, my opponent may shank the return or hit a short one which would allow me to hit an easy put away shot and ever so often my serve turns out to be an ace!

My 2nd serve is always a kick serve. I hit it with a mixture of topspin and slice which causes it to curve to the left and kick right. My 2nd serve usually comes back, but if I hit it with a lot of spin, which I usually do, it bounces above my opponent's head and they usually shank the ball or hit a poor return.

I recently improved my serve (both 1st and 2nd) and it made my game much more easier to execute.

Just a word of advice, my 2nd serve improved dramatically when I did this. I tossed the ball slightly to the left and behind me and swung my racquet as if I was going to throw the racquet out of the court. The ball clears the net by about 3 ft but kick's outward and to the right like crazy! When I first started doing this. My opponent gave me a "Are you kidding me?!?" type of look. It's a beauty to watch your opponent reach up to handle a ball like that. I'll post some videos soon.


Nice, get that video up. :)

ubermeyer
07-14-2009, 07:02 PM
well if I had a roddick like serve that could go at 155- I'd beat everyone I know and then some

darthpwner
07-14-2009, 07:58 PM
1st and 2nd serve aces :). 1st serve is usually a hard flat or a slice 2 either corner or the body. 2nd serve is aimed mostly 2 the weaker side wich is usually the backhand

darthpwner
07-14-2009, 08:00 PM
well if I had a roddick like serve that could go at 155- I'd beat everyone I know and then some

first u have 2 get it in tho and get the shot over if they do return it. Otherwise you would b like karlovic

Nonentity
07-14-2009, 08:04 PM
I usually serve just as hard and flat on my 2nd serve as my 1st.
This always catches them off guard no matter how many times i do it. I only double fault about 1 or 2 times in 3 service games. Also I see a lot of errors when i mix in wide slices or kick serve into my 1st serves.

RoddickAce
07-14-2009, 08:17 PM
Power first serve or kick jamming second serve.

itracbui3
07-14-2009, 09:01 PM
id hit my first serve (flat or slice) very out wide with great pace and my second serve is a massive kick down the T

obnoxious2
07-14-2009, 09:54 PM
2nd serve racquet head speed should be the same as first serve flat serves.

Jay_The_Nomad
07-14-2009, 10:01 PM
Place a 1st serve in the corners with some spin.

Throw in a flat 1st serve into the opponent's body once in a while to keep him honest.

RM05
07-14-2009, 10:50 PM
my 1st and 2nd serve is just about getting it over...w/ some luck. :T gotta learn/practice on placing 'em better though.

OTMPut
07-15-2009, 03:09 AM
Not much difference between my first and second in terms of pace. I go for corners with the first and into the body for the second.

p.s.
Applying some basic game theory, i randomize my placements.
Even I do not know where i am going to serve :)

kuhdlie
07-15-2009, 05:09 AM
does anyone use power topspin first serve? it's a bit slower than flat serve but really heavy and knocks the racquet back of the opponents. i do this more when my flat serves aren't all going in consistently.

GuyClinch
07-15-2009, 05:14 AM
does anyone use power topspin first serve? it's a bit slower than flat serve but really heavy and knocks the racquet back of the opponents. i do this more when my flat serves aren't all going in consistently.

Yes. But I am a casual player. Its a good tatic if you don't play that often or for that long. If your playing every day you should likely learn to hit flat serves in more often.

kuhdlie
07-15-2009, 06:03 AM
Yes. But I am a casual player. Its a good tatic if you don't play that often or for that long. If your playing every day you should likely learn to hit flat serves in more often.

i do about 75-80% flat, 25-20% topspin/slice, but sometimes when the flat isn't going in, i do 50-50.

kuhdlie
07-15-2009, 06:04 AM
doesn't sampras do a lot of topspin first serves too?

10nistennis
07-15-2009, 06:16 AM
First serves I mainly do flat serves that have a bit of slice on them. I also mix it up sometimes and do kickers, and I would serve and volley.

Second serves I almost always do kickers, and usually I will follow those and serve and volley also.

makinao
07-15-2009, 07:38 AM
Variety. Flat, topspin, slice, to the body, down the t, wide, full-speed, 3/4, everything. It keeps my opponent guessing. And that guessing makes him a valuable split second less to prepare for his return.

ZPTennis
07-15-2009, 09:30 AM
doesn't sampras do a lot of topspin first serves too?


Sampras would hit unreadable flatter first serves that he could put on a dime.

Kick Serve 14
07-15-2009, 09:57 AM
Serving bombs is my thing, it got me to the quarters of the ohio state highschool tournament for DII.

kuhdlie
07-15-2009, 01:58 PM
Sampras would hit unreadable flatter first serves that he could put on a dime.

but his serves are supposed to be 3000-4000rpm, so can't be flat serves, the spin makes it very heavy to hit.

pvaudio
07-15-2009, 04:02 PM
but his serves are supposed to be 3000-4000rpm, so can't be flat serves, the spin makes it very heavy to hit.
You really can't be serving in the high 130s to low 140s and still be imparting a huge amount of spin. It isn't physiologically possible; your body cannot create enough kinetic energy to drive the ball forward, and whip up on it to give it a huge amount of topspin. Even if you could, that motion would eventually wear on your body so much that he would have gotten injured. His bomb serves were almost always flat. Watch slow-mo vids of him serving and you'll see what I mean.

maddogz32
07-15-2009, 04:57 PM
im all for a first serve that is flat and hard. but it wont always give you the point. if you dont have control you could end up putting the ball right at the forehand of your opponent. therefore the opponent would just get it back. try to hit it hard but with placement. if you miss, then just make the second serve as hard as the first serve but with more spin so it goes in

WildVolley
07-15-2009, 06:08 PM
Off the serve, the body serves hit over 100mph get me the most easy points, the return usually doesn't land in the court or sometimes people will just jump out of the way. However, I'm usually not playing very good players.

I find aces hit to the corners more satisfying, but I find it easier to just hit hard to the middle rather than to try to hit a corner. Placement is harder to come by than pace.

raiden031
07-15-2009, 06:15 PM
NTRP - Weak 4.0

1st serve - Hard flat serve to the corners

2nd serve - Kick serve, more often to the backhand

When my 1st serves go in alot, I win alot of free points and rarely get broken. Against 4.0s if my 1st serve doesn't go in, I'm toast. Against 3.5s, I can still win free points with my 2nd serve, or win the rallies often enough to hold most of the time. If I'm having a really bad 1st serve day, I usually switch to kick serves on both, which doesn't do me much good other than keeping my double fault count down so at least my opponents have to earn the points more.

kuhdlie
07-15-2009, 06:33 PM
You really can't be serving in the high 130s to low 140s and still be imparting a huge amount of spin. It isn't physiologically possible; your body cannot create enough kinetic energy to drive the ball forward, and whip up on it to give it a huge amount of topspin. Even if you could, that motion would eventually wear on your body so much that he would have gotten injured. His bomb serves were almost always flat. Watch slow-mo vids of him serving and you'll see what I mean.

well it's been studied that he does impart spin, it's not a theory. they even have specific rpm rotation speed.

pvaudio
07-15-2009, 08:28 PM
well it's been studied that he does impart spin, it's not a theory. they even have specific rpm rotation speed.

I know this, I'm reading an article on it right now :)

Let's start by looking at velocity. Interestingly, the two players averaged virtually the same initial ball speed. This is the speed off the racket, the same speed as recorded by the radar gun at pro events. In the events in our study, Sampras's serve averaged 117mph. Rusedski averaged 118mph, virtually identical.

His high 130 to low 140mph bombs had far less spin than his high 1(teens) to low 120s serves.

edit: A bit more info since we're on the topic:

So was the spin after the bounce the same for Sampras and Rusedski? Surprisingly the answer was no! Every other factor was essentially identical. The same initial ball speed off the racket. The same initial ball spin. The same speed loss at the time of the return. The big difference was the amount of spin after the bounce. Both players' serves picked up spin from the bounce off the court. Rusedski gained over 2100rpm after the bounce. But Pete gained 2800rpm.
What caused Greg's serve to gain less spin at the bounce?

Rusedski went from about 2500rpm off the racket to about 4700rpm after the bounce. Sampras went from 2500rpm to almost 5300rpm. That's 700 more rpm after the bounce. So Sampras picked up about a third more spin.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/speed_and_spin/speed_and_spin.html

SlapShot
07-16-2009, 08:40 AM
NTRP: 4.0

1st Serve: Mixture of topspin, slice, and kicker. I tend to serve based on the opponents returning position. If they're favoring their forehand on the deuce, for example, by moving more toward the middle of the service box, I'll try and hit a slice out wide. Normally, though, I'm trying to hit to backhands at least 70% of the time.

2nd Serve: Almost always a kick serve. Will occasionally mix in a slice, but not often. On a day when I'm well rested, my kick serve makes it to the baseline at 6+ feet, making it a tough ball to return.

I win most of my service points on unreturnable serves - I can usually create 1-2 unreturnables per service game.

NLBwell
07-17-2009, 08:37 PM
When I was young and strong it was to hit the 110+mph kicker in the deuce court down the centerline that crossed the baseline about 2-3 feet on the ad side. Pretty much always an ace. Similar serve on the ad side, but I couldn't place it as well. That and my serve return was why I could play open level with not really much of a tennis game. Now that I am old and have little elbow, shoulder, or knee left, I just hope to manage to get one of the two serves in and not have the 4.0 level returner crush it at me so hard it hurts me physically.

In D Zone
07-21-2009, 02:52 PM
I would go for the hard 1st serve to guage the level of the return from my opponent.

Most of the time I noticed if the opponent has a strong fh shot or like to camp a little to the back to hit a hard return (4.0 or 4.5)- I would then switched to more placements on my serve. I found this to be more effective because I keep these guys guessing, otherwise, I'll get killed.