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ohplease
07-15-2009, 10:19 AM
With a playoff spot on the line, two captains collude and neglect to report scores in their final match until they see how the other teams do. Upon seeing the results, in which they're both mathematically eliminated from the post-season, they then not only lie about the results of their final match, but attempt to go back and edit the scores from their previous match, earlier in the season, to tilt the standings in their favor.

Who needs sandbagging? All you need to do is change your scores in the computer. In fact, why even play the matches? Classically, the USTA dragged their feet on this one, too - and the matter was settled only after the colluding captains' own teammates stood up and told the truth.

The USTA is completely asleep at the wheel. It's no wonder there are so many alternative leagues popping up around the country.

beernutz
07-15-2009, 11:29 AM
In my opinion, both captains should both be banned from USTA league play for at least 5 years if these charges are proven to be true.

schap02
07-15-2009, 11:33 AM
I commented on a previous post with regards to some people not having anything better to do.
These captains are NUTZ -

jrod
07-15-2009, 11:42 AM
...The USTA is completely asleep at the wheel. It's no wonder there are so many alternative leagues popping up around the country.

Exactly. In my opinion, it's been this way for quite some time. Personally, I don't find the USTA offers me anything unique. I have plenty of people I can play at all different levels. There are other leagues to join as well. If a business enterprise ran things the way they do, they'd be filing for Chapter 11 in no time flat.

I wonder how difficult it would be to overhaul the entire organization, restructure it and run it like a real business, with a real charter, producing real results for US tennis? As it stands today its a completely dysfunctional entity and provides essentially little benefit to the vast majority of americans who want to or already play tennis.

bmwfool
07-17-2009, 04:07 PM
I disagree. Tennis is recreational for all of us and having USTA gives us some competitive atmosphere we are all fortunate to experience. USTA didn't anticipate the cheating, wrong doing, and unethical nature that took place here, so they didn't build the security in the site to catch such a maneuver. USTA should not be punished for this, the individuals who committed this crime should! To go to those lengths to get a playoff spot is disgusting. USTA is a non-profit organization with many staff members volunteering their time. USTA leagues are very inexpensive for what you get. We should feel privileged for what we have.

Spokewench
07-17-2009, 04:20 PM
It is not the USTA's fault that these captains were cheating. The rules are set up so that this does not hapen, but you cannot make all people do the right thing.

beernutz
07-17-2009, 05:11 PM
It is not the USTA's fault that these captains were cheating. The rules are set up so that this does not hapen, but you cannot make all people do the right thing.

Right, and the steroids problem in baseball is JUST the fault of the players.

WBF
07-17-2009, 05:38 PM
If there is a remotely complex system, people will cheat it. Implement as many controls as you can; if the system is usable, it will be vulnerable.

Particularly when it is being used by humans.

Complain all you want. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on resolving this particular issue though.

Keifers
07-17-2009, 05:49 PM
I disagree. Tennis is recreational for all of us and having USTA gives us some competitive atmosphere we are all fortunate to experience. USTA didn't anticipate the cheating, wrong doing, and unethical nature that took place here, so they didn't build the security in the site to catch such a maneuver. USTA should not be punished for this, the individuals who committed this crime should! To go to those lengths to get a playoff spot is disgusting. USTA is a non-profit organization with many staff members volunteering their time. USTA leagues are very inexpensive for what you get. We should feel privileged for what we have.

It is not the USTA's fault that these captains were cheating. The rules are set up so that this does not hapen, but you cannot make all people do the right thing.
The OP did not complain that the USTA enabled the cheating by these captains. He complained that the USTA was very slow in investigating and settling the matter. And I have to say that I'm not particularly surprised about that...

Exactly. In my opinion, it's been this way for quite some time. Personally, I don't find the USTA offers me anything unique. I have plenty of people I can play at all different levels. There are other leagues to join as well. If a business enterprise ran things the way they do, they'd be filing for Chapter 11 in no time flat.

I wonder how difficult it would be to overhaul the entire organization, restructure it and run it like a real business, with a real charter, producing real results for US tennis? As it stands today its a completely dysfunctional entity and provides essentially little benefit to the vast majority of americans who want to or already play tennis.
It's my distinct impression, built up over many years and talking with many people (and playing in USTA leagues myself), that the USTA is in many ways dysfunctional or at least under-performing in significant ways.

For most members and for non-members who want to try/play tennis, the USTA is invisible -- it has almost no presence other than the automated league play systems and the local league coordinators. And I'm not aware of any sustained, effective efforts to attract new people to tennis.

Where their presence is "felt" by members is in the rules and (lack of) organization of USTA leagues -- the self-rating system and laissez-faire attitude towards monitoring and enforcing rules about people sandbagging shows up quite regularly in all leagues, and cheapens the competitive tennis experience for the vast majority of league players (who don't sandbag).

That there has been no response to the thousands of complaints about the self-rating system is one of the primary indications to me of a dysfunctional, stagnant and hopelessly bureaucratic organization that badly needs shaking up. I suspect that that will happen only with new leadership and a commitment to really listen to members and a commitment to make a real difference to tennis-playing Americans.

Likely? Alas, no. But I'd love to be surprised!

NLBwell
07-17-2009, 09:27 PM
One year a 4.5 team I captained lost out on the playoffs (as second place) when the team that went to the playoffs entered their loss to the top team as all two sets to one losses and beat us out by one set. I found out later that the top team had swept all the sets.

Jim A
07-18-2009, 06:56 AM
This is simple. If you are caught cheating, manipulating or trying to defraud the system, you are banned from all USTA tournaments, leagues and events forever.

Extend the ban to all members of the team, that way someone will hold them accountable. Even on my team there are 3-4 out of the 12 who keep tight tabs on the results.

robby c
07-18-2009, 09:12 PM
This happened in my local league in the late 90's. 2 captains's reported a match score from a rainout where they didn't actually play. It was the same scenario as above. 2 teams from our local were going to State. These 2 captains were friends and wanted their teams to go to State. One problem: they forgot to tell their teammates about the scam.
The 3rd place captain called the level coordinator because the scores were so one-sided.The coordinator called the individual players to ask about the match scores. Of course, they didn't know anything about it and the whole fiasco blew up.
Both captains were banned for ten years and both their teams pulled from playoffs. Furthermore, no more than 2 players from either team could play together the following year.
The incident got the strong penalty it deserved. It pretty much destroyed our local from fielding a strong team for several years. Neither captain has played leagues since.
Robby C

darrinbaker00
07-18-2009, 09:50 PM
My question is, why is there so much cheating in USTA League play? Do district and/or national champions receive prize money?

Keifers
07-19-2009, 01:38 PM
My question is, why is there so much cheating in USTA League play? Do district and/or national champions receive prize money?
I think the amount of cheating is directly related to how easy it is to get away with it. If monitoring is lax and sanctions are few, some will cheat... and then more will cheat because they don't want to be disadvantaged -- and they figure they will get away with it too.

And then it's a race to the bottom, making league play a cheapened competitive-tennis experience.


No, no prize money. And, to me, limited glory because of the sandbagging that teams have had to engage in to advance to districts, sectionals and nationals. It's all a pretty sorry joke, isn't it?

JavierLW
07-19-2009, 01:52 PM
I disagree. Tennis is recreational for all of us and having USTA gives us some competitive atmosphere we are all fortunate to experience. USTA didn't anticipate the cheating, wrong doing, and unethical nature that took place here, so they didn't build the security in the site to catch such a maneuver. USTA should not be punished for this, the individuals who committed this crime should! To go to those lengths to get a playoff spot is disgusting. USTA is a non-profit organization with many staff members volunteering their time. USTA leagues are very inexpensive for what you get. We should feel privileged for what we have.

Non profit doesn't mean that they are not taking in money. It just means that some of their money is going to a "charity" that is also "non-profit".

Usually some Tennis Education Foundation which may do great things but the people who run those are not poor, I can tell you that from experience.

It is not "inexpensive" for us around here, if a player wants to play on a team, they pay around $65 for dues and league fees.

Im not saying this has anything to do with this particular incident but stop using "non profit as an excuse for poor performance.

We pay money for a product and if we see a less then desirable product we have a right to complain.

We do not have to "feel privileged" for what we have. If I was on the team that got totally screwed by this, i would be very insulted by that remark!!!

Luckily around here we have a Independent (we call them Renegade) League which plays the same format, same basic rules and is only $60 for the entire team. The seasons are a lot longer as well.

There is no real playoff system beyond the local league but that almost seems to keep cheating to more of a check since you dont have 3.5 teams going out finding 5.0 players so they can get past Sectionals or what have you.

For the team that wants to just "play tennis" and "feel privileged", that's definately the way to go and for Men's teams at 3.5 and 4.0 they have almost as many teams now as USTA. (a lot of them were USTA and just got tired of all the BS)

Cruzer
07-19-2009, 04:30 PM
To those that complain about the way the USTA administers itself, if you don't like they way they do things then don't play USTA tennis. The USTA is not administered perfectly and it never will be. Considering the tens of thousands that play USTA tennis across the country there will always be a select few that look for ways to win. These poor saps either had unhappy athletic experiences in their childhood and they now feel athletically superior in their adult years or they are so competitive at everything they do it carries over to a recreational activity like USTA tennis.
If people know who the suspected cheaters are in their areas then don't play them. If they have a team in your league then tell your captain that you don't want to play them.
As previously mentioned the USTA is staffed with a lot of volunteers. To the complainers feel free to call your USTA section office and volunteer your time. I am sure they would be happy to get the offer.

Bud
07-19-2009, 04:36 PM
Why are team captains even allowed to edit their past results without first going through some sort of verification system?

Once a week of time elapses, that result should stick permanently. There are enough eyes looking at it to catch a mistake within the course of 7 days.

JLyon
07-19-2009, 06:18 PM
ask Southern about changing scores, from 4 months prior. Big reason why a certain Southern Men's Team won National lasy year, by a score being changed (Southern says error corrected) 4 months later that allowed a DQ'ed player to play at Nationals and go 5-0.

Bud
07-19-2009, 06:58 PM
ask Southern about changing scores, from 4 months prior. Big reason why a certain Southern Men's Team won National lasy year, by a score being changed (Southern says error corrected) 4 months later that allowed a DQ'ed player to play at Nationals and go 5-0.

Yep. definitely not right.

Keifers
07-19-2009, 07:40 PM
...

Luckily around here we have a Independent (we call them Renegade) League which plays the same format, same basic rules and is only $60 for the entire team. The seasons are a lot longer as well.

There is no real playoff system beyond the local league but that almost seems to keep cheating to more of a check since you dont have 3.5 teams going out finding 5.0 players so they can get past Sectionals or what have you.

For the team that wants to just "play tennis" and "feel privileged", that's definately the way to go and for Men's teams at 3.5 and 4.0 they have almost as many teams now as USTA. (a lot of them were USTA and just got tired of all the BS)
Sounds great. I'd join such a league.

Keifers
07-19-2009, 07:52 PM
To those that complain about the way the USTA administers itself, if you don't like they way they do things then don't play USTA tennis. The USTA is not administered perfectly and it never will be. Considering the tens of thousands that play USTA tennis across the country there will always be a select few that look for ways to win. These poor saps either had unhappy athletic experiences in their childhood and they now feel athletically superior in their adult years or they are so competitive at everything they do it carries over to a recreational activity like USTA tennis.
If people know who the suspected cheaters are in their areas then don't play them. If they have a team in your league then tell your captain that you don't want to play them.
As previously mentioned the USTA is staffed with a lot of volunteers. To the complainers feel free to call your USTA section office and volunteer your time. I am sure they would be happy to get the offer.
An inane argument. What? just because it's staffed by volunteers, people don't have the right to question or complain?

And "The USTA is not administered perfectly and it never will be" is reason enough not to expect or hope or try for any improvement?

HookEmJeff
07-19-2009, 08:27 PM
An inane argument. What? just because it's staffed by volunteers, people don't have the right to question or complain?

And "The USTA is not administered perfectly and it never will be" is reason enough not to expect or hope or try for any improvement?

Sure everyone has the right to question or complain. But, at least do it in a constructive, sensible manner and direct your response at the right people. Volunteering is not an "inane argument" as you say.

If you're that proficient and understanding of League Tennis then the USTA definitely needs or wants your input, like any functioning non-profit organization reliant on volunteers would. I know if it was my business I would certainly want that.

So, hopefully, everytime you (or any of us on this board) see something amiss with League Tennis in your area you are telling your local USTA or Section people instead of just posting your complaints on TennisWarehouse.

And remember those volunteers are helping you even HAVE a tournament in the first place most times. I wonder how many people actually thank the tournament directors or volunteers at the tournaments they play in for helping put on or run the tournaments? It's pretty sad if you don't.

Don't be one of those guys or girls that gives those people a dirty look when they're out of free bananas or water bottles.


Jeff

bad_call
07-19-2009, 08:48 PM
An inane argument. What? just because it's staffed by volunteers, people don't have the right to question or complain?

And "The USTA is not administered perfectly and it never will be" is reason enough not to expect or hope or try for any improvement?

recently heard from a coach how far the USTA has fallen. play club league or try the open tourneys.

Keifers
07-19-2009, 11:17 PM
Responses embedded in the quote...

Sure everyone has the right to question or complain. But, at least do it in a constructive, sensible manner and direct your response at the right people. Volunteering is not an "inane argument" as you say.

If you're that proficient and understanding of League Tennis then the USTA definitely needs or wants your input, like any functioning non-profit organization reliant on volunteers would. I know if it was my business I would certainly want that.

-> But that's exactly why so many of us are frustrated. Concerns, complaints and suggestions are routinely ignored by this organization. I believe that you would want feedback if it was your business. Unfortunately, the USTA doesn't act like that.

So, hopefully, everytime you (or any of us on this board) see something amiss with League Tennis in your area you are telling your local USTA or Section people instead of just posting your complaints on TennisWarehouse.

-> I've done that, as have many others I know, and the lack of response has been the most common result by far.

And remember those volunteers are helping you even HAVE a tournament in the first place most times. I wonder how many people actually thank the tournament directors or volunteers at the tournaments they play in for helping put on or run the tournaments? It's pretty sad if you don't.

Don't be one of those guys or girls that gives those people a dirty look when they're out of free bananas or water bottles.

-> I've been a club volunteer many times, so I make a point of thanking volunteers in any event I enter.

-> Excusing poor organization or performance just because much of the work is being done by volunteers is just wrong-headed. Much better to give honest feedback and constructive suggestions -- and many of us have done that, before expressing our disappointment and frustration here.

Jeff

Rabbit
07-20-2009, 05:15 AM
It's, the USTA leagues, gotten so bad around here that I've begged our club pro to give us one of the clubs one night a week to let the members play in competition with the leagues. There was a big to do around here that was kind of like the OP. Guys were "suspended" from league play...blah blah blah.

The leagues should just die. They started out as a way to play tennis and have now turned into a competition for who can cheat the best. I still remember a guy b!tching about a player on another team, how he played D1 tennis and was now playing 4.5. I replied to him "well your #1 singles player played for Kansas, didn't he?" The guy said "Well yeah, but he's lost some matches...". I said "So what you're really mad about is that they cheated better than you did, right?"

Now the USTA has taken the verification out of the leagues and it's like the inmates have total and complete control. Whenever we say that we're playing leagues for fun, they say it's a competition and has rules. When we call them on the rules, their reply is "well, it's really for fun".

It's gotten so bad we even had some senior players get bumped based on their results.

Fedace
07-20-2009, 05:41 AM
With a playoff spot on the line, two captains collude and neglect to report scores in their final match until they see how the other teams do. Upon seeing the results, in which they're both mathematically eliminated from the post-season, they then not only lie about the results of their final match, but attempt to go back and edit the scores from their previous match, earlier in the season, to tilt the standings in their favor.

Who needs sandbagging? All you need to do is change your scores in the computer. In fact, why even play the matches? Classically, the USTA dragged their feet on this one, too - and the matter was settled only after the colluding captains' own teammates stood up and told the truth.

The USTA is completely asleep at the wheel. It's no wonder there are so many alternative leagues popping up around the country.

That is hilarious. I wonder what would happen if there actual prize money involved ??? I don't get it cause if their team isn't good enough to make the playoffs then they aren't going to go far in district and regionals anyway. I dont' see the point in their stupidity....:):evil:

slice bh compliment
07-20-2009, 05:57 AM
It's, the USTA leagues, gotten so bad around here that I've begged our club pro to give us one of the clubs one night a week to let the members play in competition with the leagues. There was a big to do around here that was kind of like the OP. Guys were "suspended" from league play...blah blah blah. ....

Pretty cool pro if he booked you guys a couple of courts for pure, casual, non-league play. Unless you're still in college or tournament tennis, that's what I think is the best part of the game. 2, 3 or 4 people getting together, having a great time on a tennis court. Pure. No politics.

I listen to a few of my buddies talk about their league/team. Some good times, some sad stories [line-up shenanigans, recruiting chicanery, the win-at-all-costs mentality, vicious blog entires, blatantly waiting for an injured recent DI college player (clear 5.5) to sit out a couple of years and persuade him to slum it on a 4.5 team, comments like, "yeah, he'll get bumped after a season, but he'll make a nice difference for us".
Please.
Is it really any fun for the star? Unless he plays another star player who also ought to be playing open tournaments? But then half the time there is stacking, so they don't even play eachother. Lame.

Yeah, it's probably nice to have a built-in, scheduled team match....and it takes a little more effort/creativity to set up your own tennis with friends near your level, but, at least for me, it's way better to play casually and enter the occasional tournament.

BTW, great line above about how angry people get when someone cheats better than they do. Truth.

goober
07-20-2009, 06:04 AM
That is hilarious. I wonder what would happen if there actual prize money involved ??? I don't get it cause if their team isn't good enough to make the playoffs then they aren't going to go far in district and regionals anyway. I dont' see the point in their stupidity....:):evil:

Wow are sure you play actually USTA league tennis? The goals of many teams is to make it to playoffs. In fact I have been on 2 different teams where that was the explicitly stated goal for the season. A successful season is judge by whether or not you make it to playoffs. I am not condoning their behavior, but that is a really common goal.

Beyond that most people are realistic that their teams chances of going far a crapshoot. There are some captains that are building teams for Nationals, but I actually have rarely seen such teams.

JavierLW
07-20-2009, 08:13 AM
Wow are sure you play actually USTA league tennis? The goals of many teams is to make it to playoffs. In fact I have been on 2 different teams where that was the explicitly stated goal for the season. A successful season is judge by whether or not you make it to playoffs. I am not condoning their behavior, but that is a really common goal.

Beyond that most people are realistic that their teams chances of going far a crapshoot. There are some captains that are building teams for Nationals, but I actually have rarely seen such teams.

Yes but you have to point this out:

NORMAL
--------

You may have a goal to go to the playoffs. But you are there to play tennis.

If you dont make the playoffs hopefully you still had fun and received some fulfillment out of the experience, otherwise to be honest there was no real reason for you to be there.

And if you do make the playoffs it's much more fulfilling that way because you got there by working hard on your game, having a better run team, and of course being able to pull out the much needed wins. You didnt get there by cheating at all costs to go to the playoffs.

ABNORMAL
-----------

You are only there to go to the playoffs. If you dont, you are miserable, you'll likely stop showing up to matches and you'll feel you are wasting your time and you'd rather go out and golf or do something else.

Unfortunately a lot of teams and players are weird that way when you look at these NTRP leagues, they are only there for the thrill of winning a pen, they dont actually care about playing tennis.

The fact that prize money is not involved makes someone like that even more ******** to me.

Fedace
07-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Yes but you have to point this out:

NORMAL
--------

You may have a goal to go to the playoffs. But you are there to play tennis.

If you dont make the playoffs hopefully you still had fun and received some fulfillment out of the experience, otherwise to be honest there was no real reason for you to be there.

And if you do make the playoffs it's much more fulfilling that way because you got there by working hard on your game, having a better run team, and of course being able to pull out the much needed wins. You didnt get there by cheating at all costs to go to the playoffs.

ABNORMAL
-----------

You are only there to go to the playoffs. If you dont, you are miserable, you'll likely stop showing up to matches and you'll feel you are wasting your time and you'd rather go out and golf or do something else.

Unfortunately a lot of teams and players are weird that way when you look at these NTRP leagues, they are only there for the thrill of winning a pen, they dont actually care about playing tennis.

The fact that prize money is not involved makes someone like that even more ******** to me.

GREAT POINTS, Javier. Mark the Words of Vic Braden. If you had fun today, you are a Winner, no matter what the score. YOU are a Winner Twice over if you had fun and won the match. but if you won but didn't have any fun then you lost the day. :)

JavierLW
07-20-2009, 08:28 AM
Sure everyone has the right to question or complain. But, at least do it in a constructive, sensible manner and direct your response at the right people. Volunteering is not an "inane argument" as you say.

Jeff

Actually not all league officials are volunteers, they are paid in some cases.

I know because they've complained to me about how little they are paid as if that's some excuse for doing a slip shot job.

So apparently the "excuse" for them is that since they are paid very little, it's okay if it's a bad product.

That's a really nice attitude.

Next time you go sit down at a restaurant to eat and you have to wait 25 minutes for your server, and you have bugs in your salad and the water glasses are dirty, dont complain. After all they are paid "very little" so how dare you expect to get decent service for the $$$ you've paid.

And that's the bottom line, we are paying money for league tennis, and despite what some say it's not a "little" amount of a money compared to some other leagues.

That's the problem with the USTA in some of these cases, they do not understand that we are their customers, we are not receiving "free" or "cheap" services, and they are not "doing us a favor" by giving us tennis, anymore then a restaurant is "doing you a favor" by giving you good service either.

Although again, not sure this applys to the OP's case. I can imagine if you accuse them of colluding, you have to spell out a clear cut case and you probably need to file grievance and they have to go over it.

Im not sure you can expect a quick and exact response, this is not Iran, if you accuse someone of wrongdoing they have to follow up to go over the facts before punishing anyone. (otherwise you'll have paranoid imbeciles accusing everyone of cheating left and right and someone could get in trouble for something they didnt do)

skiracer55
07-20-2009, 09:29 AM
I think the amount of cheating is directly related to how easy it is to get away with it. If monitoring is lax and sanctions are few, some will cheat... and then more will cheat because they don't want to be disadvantaged -- and they figure they will get away with it too.

And then it's a race to the bottom, making league play a cheapened competitive-tennis experience.


No, no prize money. And, to me, limited glory because of the sandbagging that teams have had to engage in to advance to districts, sectionals and nationals. It's all a pretty sorry joke, isn't it?

...when you start figuring out how limited the glory really is. Everybody knows who won the 2008 Wimbledon Men's Singles title. Does anybody even care who won the 2008 4.0 Nationals? Besides whoever won, that is.

I'm amazed (but not really) that (1) there's this level of cheating going on and that (2) people are still playing NTRP leagues. What I am not amazed at is that the USTA isn't doing anything about this and other problems with NTRP and USTA leagues. NTRP and leagues started off as an allegedly noble experiment to get more people into tennis...back during the tennis bust of the 70s. Of course, the price of getting involved in tennis was a USTA membership plus league fees...which obviously helped the USTA's budget problems. Now let's just imagine for a minute that the whole NTRP league tennis/NTRP was just a ploy to swell the USTA's coffers...would you, the USTA, care if anybody cheated or not, as long as the $$$$ kept coming in?

ohplease
07-20-2009, 09:43 AM
That is hilarious. I wonder what would happen if there actual prize money involved ??? I don't get it cause if their team isn't good enough to make the playoffs then they aren't going to go far in district and regionals anyway. I dont' see the point in their stupidity....:):evil:

Actually, one of the teams in question (let's call them Team A) went to nationals last year. The problem is their standard operating procedure of rating management via putting in scrubs against weak teams and taking fake losses to clearly the weakest particular players in the local league backfired on them this time.

How? The other colluding team (Team B) brought in some ringers, who were bumped, which reversed a bunch of wins throughout the local league and promoted 2 completely different teams into the playoffs, mathematically eliminating both theses scumball teams in the process. If Team A had actually played to their ability instead of playing possum, they'd be in the playoffs, easy. Instead, they're sitting at home, wondering how long they'll be banned.

So, after all this, if you're Team A or B - what are you left with? Score editing, of course.

As to the question of how well the USTA is or isn't serving it's members, I'd argue that everything that's been good about my USTA experience has little, if anything, to do with the USTA itself and everything to do with my teammates, my club, and the decency of other USTA league participants.

In other words, I've patronized their product DESPITE, not because, of anything the USTA is doing. We shall see if I, or others, continue to do so. Obviously, some of the people who care about the quality of the USTA experience have been ignored, and are voting with their feet and playing elsewhere. The absolute worst part about it is the impression that the USTA simply doesn't care. In fact, I doubt they'd care if league participation dropped in half, cause that's not junior development, or the US Open, or whatever else is their real priority.

There are so many different, better ways to do handicapped competitions and consequently grow the sport. But instead we're stuck with a broken, cynical, and frankly lazy system that's instead chasing people away. Tennis deserves better.

LafayetteHitter
07-20-2009, 10:07 AM
In Lafayette it's a complete joke!

goober
07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Yes but you have to point this out:

NORMAL
--------

You may have a goal to go to the playoffs. But you are there to play tennis.

If you dont make the playoffs hopefully you still had fun and received some fulfillment out of the experience, otherwise to be honest there was no real reason for you to be there.

And if you do make the playoffs it's much more fulfilling that way because you got there by working hard on your game, having a better run team, and of course being able to pull out the much needed wins. You didnt get there by cheating at all costs to go to the playoffs.

ABNORMAL
-----------

You are only there to go to the playoffs. If you dont, you are miserable, you'll likely stop showing up to matches and you'll feel you are wasting your time and you'd rather go out and golf or do something else.

Unfortunately a lot of teams and players are weird that way when you look at these NTRP leagues, they are only there for the thrill of winning a pen, they dont actually care about playing tennis.

The fact that prize money is not involved makes someone like that even more ******** to me.

I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying there are a lot of teams that fall into your abnormal category. If you have have a significant number of teams that fall into this category, then the behavior is no longer considered abnormal but in fact with in the range of normal for the the league. Note of course outside and inside observers could still consider this abnormal behavior.

I think the psyche of these teams goes beyond winning a pen as you put it. There are a lot of people who want to win very badly even if nothing materially significant on the line. I think it goes back to sports in as kids and in high school. Many people are ingrained with the Lombardi mentality of "Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing" .

JavierLW
07-20-2009, 04:51 PM
I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying there are a lot of teams that fall into your abnormal category. If you have have a significant number of teams that fall into this category, then the behavior is no longer considered abnormal but in fact with in the range of normal for the the league. Note of course outside and inside observers could still consider this abnormal behavior.

I think the psyche of these teams goes beyond winning a pen as you put it. There are a lot of people who want to win very badly even if nothing materially significant on the line. I think it goes back to sports in as kids and in high school. Many people are ingrained with the Lombardi mentality of "Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing" .

I guess this assumptions on my part, but I just dont see the number of teams that are only there to win and nothing else, as "significant".

Typically if you look at it from the local level, this is a handful of teams who usually are either the same ones that seem to win every single year, or they are the ones that show up out of the blue for a quickie.

I know how they think, from their perspective they are moving onto the playoffs every year, and they feel that they are hitting a bump in a the road somewhere in there, so from their point of view "everyone is like that", or when it comes to cheating "everyone does it". (Ive heard that argument before)

But that's because they totally ignore and discount the local league. You can pretty much win most local leagues before even one match is played just by who you can manage to get on your team. (especially if you can cheat and get away with it) Im not saying that everyone is a cheater who wins their league but Ive seen it happen.

And you are right, there are individuals who meet my description of "abnormal". They only want to win. If they could stay in 3.0 and win all the time they'd do it forever because they love it. If you forfeit and they win, they will take that as well, they dont care.

They probably dont even REALLY like tennis but they just happen to be in a situation (ie... someone who is clearly better then 3.5 but keeps appealing to stay in 3.5) which is allowing them to win a lot and allowing them to feel good about themselves.

But once they lose they are miserable and they think something is wrong. Then they dont show up to matches, and they make lame excuses about how they have so much else to do.

They are actually afraid of losing so these are the same people who sometimes if they split sets with you, they'd rather forfeit and give you a cheap win, then they would play the 3rd and risk losing.

But that's just an experience of one individual.

Playing in the league and running a team is something different. It should be about the experience and the effort. If you win you should feel you've accomplished something because you had to work hard to get there.

But there are whole teams of "abnormal" people with "abnormal" behavior. They are not in the league because they enjoy playing in the league, they are only there to win a cheap prize (as a team).

You are right, many people blindly follow simple slogans because they dont have enough brains to actually think for themselves.

But since they think that way, here's another one which I think is by Lombardi:

"Being a winner isnt just about winning, it's about how you deal with losing as well."

Jim A
07-20-2009, 05:28 PM
I think part of what brings all this about is that for many of the USTA players, this is their first go-round in organized athletics, so they want the glory at all costs. For once in their lives, they can be a winner and it just gets out of control.

That being said, I'm not surprised at all that they cheat, manipulate, throw games and flat-out lie to try to win a championship since I see how they act with their kids teams. We had to forfeit a team out of a semifinal at a recent national championship because they were using an illegal player (player didn't play any of the prior games). Then they can't understand why "since its for the kids" that they can't at least finish the game?? You just made a mockery of a national semifinal...

This is the biggest issue I have playing adult tennis in any sort of league form, the people who are the biggest abusers when it comes to cheating, all of a sudden are my opponents across the net.

I haven't found too much wrong as of yet with USTA League (1st rodeo) and will have my first districts exp soon enough. I expect to play quality opponents, B/C rated players who are now a solid 3.5 level and will give it my best. In the end, and not in this thread per se, how you do develops one's perspective (i.e. my teammate who retired after getting throttled 6-1 in by a guy I eventually beat in the Finals 5-7, 6-1, 6-1) saying he was such a sandbagger etc.when he just didn't have a game plan ( I hit down the middle)

JavierLW
07-20-2009, 06:02 PM
I haven't found too much wrong as of yet with USTA League (1st rodeo) and will have my first districts exp soon enough. I expect to play quality opponents, B/C rated players who are now a solid 3.5 level and will give it my best. In the end, and not in this thread per se, how you do develops one's perspective (i.e. my teammate who retired after getting throttled 6-1 in by a guy I eventually beat in the Finals 5-7, 6-1, 6-1) saying he was such a sandbagger etc.when he just didn't have a game plan ( I hit down the middle)

He retired because he was physically unable to play, or retired because he was losing?

If he retired just because he didnt like losing then he has no credibility. (people like him are part of the reason why the USTA is very defensive about people who complain about cheating)

The biggest problem is that we're playing a sport that is supposed to be a gentleman's game. There is supposed to be some sort of honor and respect involved and people who are only out there to win at all costs do not belong in this sport.

On those grounds, if anyone is found cheating just to win, they should be thrown out of the league permanently because that goes against the spirit of the game.

(but Im just talking about the cases where we clearly have evidence of cheating, not the cases where someone "seems" too good and someone crys "sandbagger" just because they are losing)

max8176
07-20-2009, 08:03 PM
I am not surprise that teams try to manipulate the scores to win. I am just surprise that this actually just happen in our park that when everyone is talking about this issue.

As far as I known, the captain of the 3.5 team in our park has asked the captain of their last game to lose on purpose so they can make playoffs. I think it came down to my park's 3.5 team and two other teams in the flight fighting for two playoff spots. They all had the exact win/ loss, match win/loss and set win/ loss so it would determine by counting each crucial game. Someone told me that our park's captain had continuously called or emailed the other captain to put pressure on him so that his team would lose on purpose. The captain being pressure was really depressed and didnt know what to do. In the end, my park's 3.5 team only won 4-1 and they need to win all 5 matches to clinch playoff. So what did they do? My park's captain entered the score 5-0 on purpose and hoped that the other captain didnt notice about it and let it slide. For a brief moment, my park's 3.5 team became the #1 seed in the playoff and the next moment they were out of the playoff. I guess the other captain finally said something to correct the score.

Fedace
07-20-2009, 08:05 PM
What do you get if you win the Nationals. Little cheapy plate ??? do you get anything nice, like Rolex or Pure gold Nationals winner trophy ?????? Noooooootttt.............