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crystal_clear
07-21-2009, 05:02 PM
I seem to forget the split-steps all the time...:confused:

masterxfob
07-22-2009, 11:09 AM
not sure if it helps, but i run a few line drills when i warm up. every time i come to a change in direction, i split step.

charliefedererer
07-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Always split step as your opponent strikes the ball on every shot.
Just always do it in practice and when playing.

wihamilton
07-22-2009, 12:14 PM
I seem to forget the split-steps all the time...:confused:

You can try some verbal cues... every time your opponent is swinging up to the tennis ball say, "split!" That way you should have started your split -- be in the air -- when your opponent makes contact w/the tennis ball. And you'll be landing more or less at the same time you figure out where the ball is going, which is what you want.

KonTrol
07-22-2009, 02:07 PM
even when warming up do it.. or playing for fun you will be used to it after

SethIMcClaine
07-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Play hop-scotch :-P

They have training aids (they are ment for kids, but they can work for adults too) that are a 6 sided ball. when it hits the round it bounches in a random direction. if you get ahold of one of those, toss it up in the air (probably about 10 feet up, and 10 feet out), and hit your split step as the ball contacts the court, then get to the ball.

crystal_clear
07-23-2009, 01:20 PM
Thanks everyone for your advice~

crystal_clear
07-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Play hop-scotch :-P

They have training aids (they are ment for kids, but they can work for adults too) that are a 6 sided ball. when it hits the round it bounches in a random direction. if you get ahold of one of those, toss it up in the air (probably about 10 feet up, and 10 feet out), and hit your split step as the ball contacts the court, then get to the ball.

Do you have a video?

SethIMcClaine
07-23-2009, 09:43 PM
Do you have a video?
sorry, I dont. I would make one but I'm running on dial up

ra7686
07-23-2009, 09:59 PM
I know the ball that Seth is talking about I think. It's called a reaction ball, hexagon shaped or with spheres attached to the sides so that it jumps in a different direction every time it hits the ground. We use them for agility at training sometimes (I'm a junior). I'll see if I can find a link.

Here you go: http://static4.matrixsports.com/images/products/81/c95d737ea42ce090687d553a92a8868e.jpg

Not sure if that's the best thing to make sure that you split-step consistently in matches, although it'll certainly help your reaction time and explosiveness off the ground. What everyone else has said so far will work, the determining factor is just if you are remembering to be focussed on split-stepping everytime you play, and on every shot. After a while it'll become habit and you'll do it without thinking.

The way I learned this was having my coach on my back all the time when I forgot about it for a shot or two, but most people won't have a coach there to correct them constantly.

Barring that, I think the verbal cues are a great idea. You could hit with a friend and ask them to practice it with you. Have them yell out "split" when you hit, and vice versa. After a day or two, stop yelling "split" and just focus on it internally.

Hopefully this helps!

-r.a.

topher.juan
07-23-2009, 10:16 PM
You need to be practicin' yo' crank dat, know what I'm sayin'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLGLum5SyKQ

ra7686
07-23-2009, 10:19 PM
hahaha.

Truly, you never know. A little Soulja Boy Tell 'Em just might dial up your tennis game.

Can't hurt, at least.

SethIMcClaine
07-24-2009, 07:01 PM
I know the ball that Seth is talking about I think. It's called a reaction ball, hexagon shaped or with spheres attached to the sides so that it jumps in a different direction every time it hits the ground. We use them for agility at training sometimes (I'm a junior). I'll see if I can find a link.

Here you go: http://static4.matrixsports.com/images/products/81/c95d737ea42ce090687d553a92a8868e.jpg


Yeah thats what I was talking about. (I use the kong dog toy sold at pet stores :-P )

SethIMcClaine
07-24-2009, 07:03 PM
You need to be practicin' yo' crank dat, know what I'm sayin'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLGLum5SyKQ
Let me know how this works out for you?

crystal_clear
07-24-2009, 08:58 PM
I know the ball that Seth is talking about I think. It's called a reaction ball, hexagon shaped or with spheres attached to the sides so that it jumps in a different direction every time it hits the ground. We use them for agility at training sometimes (I'm a junior). I'll see if I can find a link.

Here you go: http://static4.matrixsports.com/images/products/81/c95d737ea42ce090687d553a92a8868e.jpg
-r.a.

Thank you~ It is quite interesting.

crystal_clear
07-24-2009, 09:05 PM
You need to be practicin' yo' crank dat, know what I'm sayin'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLGLum5SyKQ

LOL~ They do have some similarity...split steps, very relax, good rhythm...

What do you call this dance move?

crystal_clear
07-24-2009, 09:07 PM
You can try some verbal cues... every time your opponent is swinging up to the tennis ball say, "split!" That way you should have started your split -- be in the air -- when your opponent makes contact w/the tennis ball. And you'll be landing more or less at the same time you figure out where the ball is going, which is what you want.

I am going to ask my coach to say "split" when he is swinging up to the ball.

crystal_clear
07-28-2009, 04:41 AM
I had my coach said, "split" everytime he swinging up to the ball yesterday. It works! I improved my timing a little bit and I felt I have more time to hit balls. Thank you Will~ Great advice~

Bungalo Bill
07-28-2009, 07:57 AM
Footwork only needs to be learned naturally. ;)

larry10s
07-28-2009, 08:20 AM
Footwork only needs to be learned naturally. ;) BB do you think split stepping and especially correct timing of the split step is natural? for me its an ongoing conditioned, practiced movement. i started tennis at 49. im 56 now

princess bossass
07-28-2009, 08:32 AM
Kind of unrelated, but does anyone know if volleyball players use split step?

Raid
07-28-2009, 08:53 AM
Kind of unrelated, but does anyone know if volleyball players use split step?

not that I am aware of

Bungalo Bill
07-28-2009, 09:10 AM
BB do you think split stepping and especially correct timing of the split step is natural? for me its an ongoing conditioned, practiced movement. i started tennis at 49. im 56 now

Hi Larry,

I was just kidding with my comment. By now, you should know I will never let up on the importance of footwork. It is thee most important part of a players tennis game. It is also one where you need to practice to become proficient at it so it becomes smooth and natural for you.

It is utter nonsense to think that if a player moves his left foot before his right (and he shouldn't) that we should leave them alone because that is "natural" even though he can get a a ball. However, what about the 10th ball? When do we step in when we start noticing a breakdown in the footwork that prevented a player from getting that 10th ball?

Footwork is not always "natural" for many people and even for those that it comes easier for, they may not be so good moving to a certain side. And when a player gets tired, footwork is one of the first things to go.

Here is an example of that:

“He’s not satisfied,” Stefanki said. “He’s looking for ways to get better at his level. The guy has been one in the world and won a Slam. He wants to win another. What’s it going to take?”

Stefanki said he and Roddick had worked on Roddick’s footwork and backhand technique, trying to improve his movement to that wing and bring his contact point in closer to his body. Stefanki said the emphasis had been on three primary areas: Roddick’s returns, his net play and his ability to do more with the frequently weak retorts — Stefanki calls them “dead balls” — to his powerful serves.

“That’s what he’s focused on the last six months, and that’s what’s going to win the U.S. Open on a faster surface and Wimbledon,” Stefanki said.

So, we have an outstanding tennis player going back to the basics to help him improve. However, there are some that will make people believe here that footwork is natural or just evolves. Tell that to Roddick after six months of training. And we are not talking about pie-in-the-sky training. He is preparing to win Wimbledon (which he nearly did) and win the US Open, which he very well could.

So, when it comes to footwork, you need to practice it because you need to mix different patterns together and they require timing, footspeed and quickness to be able to execute them faster and faster and faster.

Split-steps are a timing pattern and with timing, you need to practice it.

larry10s
07-28-2009, 10:09 AM
thanks for the reply BB. since the main focus when i started was more on "the swing" then we got to the core and legs and now finally footwork. not to say that was the teaching pros syllabus on how to teach ut that is how my development is/has taken place. now that i focus more on footwork every thing else is improving:)my first volley in serve and volley is stronger since i am better balanced when i hit it (duh) so im holding serve more in singles and doubles . the footwork and agility drills i do help with the little steps around the ball so i am in better position for the ground strokes. it hasnt been natural but i am determined and the hard work is paying off.

Bungalo Bill
07-28-2009, 10:43 AM
thanks for the reply BB. since the main focus when i started was more on "the swing" then we got to the core and legs and now finally footwork. not to say that was the teaching pros syllabus on how to teach ut that is how my development is/has taken place. now that i focus more on footwork every thing else is improving:)

And for me, the closest thing to the Holy Grail for a tennis player is to improve their movement and conditioning for tennis. This can only be done through committment and dedicated disciplined training.

When a player truly focuses on footwork and their tennis conditioning (not general conditioning), conditioning that is focused on getting them to another level, it is amazing how quickly a player improves. Players do need to continue improving their technique (just like Roddick had to do) but when you do it with lower body training, you really improve fast.

Not many coaches now days have tough lessons designed to improve the lower body as the core aspect of the lesson. If you found one, hold on to that coach.

my first volley in serve and volley is stronger since i am better balanced when i hit it (duh) so im holding serve more in singles and doubles . the footwork and agility drills i do help with the little steps around the ball so i am in better position for the ground strokes. it hasnt been natural but i am determined and the hard work is paying off.

Yup, confidence also increases because right away, without seeing your opponents strokes, you know you will beat him with your conditioning and training.

larry10s
07-29-2009, 04:46 AM
^^^^^Not many coaches now days have tough lessons designed to improve the lower body as the core aspect of the lesson. If you found one, hold on to that coach.
bb do you have any drills or lessons i could "suggest" to my teaching pro you wish to share?

crystal_clear
08-24-2009, 07:50 PM
I tried to split step when return of serve in the class today and it works. :)

Fedace
08-24-2009, 08:02 PM
You can try some verbal cues... every time your opponent is swinging up to the tennis ball say, "split!" That way you should have started your split -- be in the air -- when your opponent makes contact w/the tennis ball. And you'll be landing more or less at the same time you figure out where the ball is going, which is what you want.

Question is WHEN do you split step ??? You can't teach the same thing you teach to the Junior comptetive player to the 50 year old amateur. the Timing of When you split step is completely different.
YOu would teach a fast Junior to split step Just before the ball hits the racket strings of your opponent vs you would teach a older amateur player to split step as the ball hits the ground of your opponent as it bounces.
Why ???? cause older amateur is much slower in reacting to the ball so need more time to react to the shot coming off of their opponent.

Bungalo Bill
08-24-2009, 08:20 PM
^^^^^Not many coaches now days have tough lessons designed to improve the lower body as the core aspect of the lesson. If you found one, hold on to that coach.
bb do you have any drills or lessons i could "suggest" to my teaching pro you wish to share?

Hi Larry,

I sprinked a bunch of drills around here. I am sure others know where they are.

crystal_clear
08-24-2009, 08:47 PM
Question is WHEN do you split step ??? You can't teach the same thing you teach to the Junior comptetive player to the 50 year old amateur. the Timing of When you split step is completely different.
YOu would teach a fast Junior to split step Just before the ball hits the racket strings of your opponent vs you would teach a older amateur player to split step as the ball hits the ground of your opponent as it bounces.
Why ???? cause older amateur is much slower in reacting to the ball so need more time to react to the shot coming off of their opponent.
Also the speed of the split step makes difference. When I stay at the net, I do a quick split step(small hop)
while I do a bigger split step at the baseline for return of serve.

teachestennis
08-25-2009, 08:15 AM
BB do you think split stepping and especially correct timing of the split step is natural? for me its an ongoing conditioned, practiced movement. i started tennis at 49. im 56 now

I'll bite on this one given Bungalow Bill is probably being facetious here given there is a school of thought led by Oscar Wegner that teaches beginners to emphasize natural footwork while they develop their finding the ball skill and learning to power the ball to the finish by hitting up and across.

MTM coaches teach footwork through drills. Every single one of my players learns to split step, but I might not start emphasizing it until I've finished showing them the biomechanical techniques of the double bend windshield wiper forehand which begins with teaching the swing from the contact point forward to the finish by bending the arm and then learning to associate the butt of the racket with the direction of the ball.

We then teach students to hit the ball watching it come down walking BACKWARDS from the net to the baseline with slow natural steps backwards, not turning the feet, just learning to make the arms independent of the feet.

Then we teach them to walk forwards from the baseline to the net, again, just "touch the ball" then "touch the shoulder."

After we have a FH and a BH, then we introduce the can drill or the figure eight drill as it's known. This drill is our main drill all the way to the pro level, it just gets harder as you take the student on a learning gradient. We teach just pivoting and turning around the can and allow the student to learn to find the ball on the run, then stroke it and pull their body across back to the can in the middle of the baseline.

This is where we introduce the split step and I show how you lift up and then land the feet. Since Oscar's Weekly Tennis Tip a few days ago dealt with this issue, I'll let you see how Oscar teaches footwork. We teach a lot of footwork, but we teach it creatively and through drills that teach the student to feel the difference between standing flat footed and springing from what is known as split-step. It's just that we teach it differently and emphasize footwork in much later stages. I have found in my 30 years of teaching that the less I emphasize specific emphasis on the feet, and then just give the student a visual picture and then a drill to test the different ways to move their feet, they invariably figure it out. That is what MTM means by teaching the split step naturally.

Tennis Tip from www.tennisteacher.com August 20, 2009: Oscar's own words. You be the judge. Oscar is referring to the new tennisone video done by Doug King last week. These tips go out to over ten thousand players weekly, so Oscar is not afraid to put himself out there. You would be surprised if you know how many top coaches use this system based on the Power of Simplicity. The reason we started certifying MTM coaches was to make sure all our coaches knew how to teach MTM properly given as Bungalow Bill can tell you, a lot of "Wegner Method" coaches out there had misconceptions given there was no ongoing training or clarification about what Oscar really taught and how he taught it. It's bad enough there are myths about Oscar which I have tried to clear up. Any teaching can be misinterpreted unless their is some method or procedure to clear it up, and that is why MTMCA was formed. Therefore we are about to go public with Modern Tennis Methodology Coaching Academy which we tested for a year working out the kinks. We think it's the best coaching value for the money and is only to set the foundational biomechanical techniques and allow each coach to get instant results with the masses that are not produced by any other teaching method. Anyone can coach the better athletes, but MTM brings tennis to the masses and that is the role Oscar Wegner chose to adopt for himself. Many of our coaches are USPTA and PTR certified (like myself). Several are former Davis Cup coaches, former top players (at least one in top 80 in the world) and I assure you there are former top players who are current top coaches who use these tenets. Evidence and history prove that no system has enjoyed the succcess of MTM. The USPTA keeps changing every few years; now it's load and explode, and if you don't think Oscar influenced their moving to phase out conventional coaching, then you might want to read the History of Tennis Instruction on www.moderntenniscoaches.com. Our latest MTM certified coach is the Head Woman's Tennis Coach from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. Must work for him.

What's The Problem? By Oscar Wegner

I just read a tip from a top teacher that counsels you to stay on the balls of your feet while playing.
I would find it very tiring. You relax at times, resting on your whole foot, but ready to move when needed.

Furthermore, being on your toes or the balls of your feet in between moves does not mean your heels are off the ground, but rather that you are ready to put pressure on the front of the foot for your next move.

The split step is sometimes taught as a big separation of the feet, and then it becomes a stop that inhibits a quick motion to either side. I would describe it as a gentle bouncing of the body which helps timing the start of the run to the ball.

Another thing that I read in this same article is that there is a new concept, losing balance to get the body moving. I totally agree with this concept, and I have been teaching it since 1968, so I don't consider something 40 years old new. It includes lifting or dragging the inside foot so you lose balance towards that side, helping you start the run. Some players go head first, others keep the head up, but it is the fastest way to start the run.

Overall, don't think of your feet and don't try hard. It is better to be swift and to glide than to exert too much force on your legs. The core of your body will coordinate the torso and the legs for a perfect move.

The Optimal Solution

Be natural and as slow as possible, relax and enjoy the game as if you have a lot of time.

Rushing and being constantly in movement could be an aerobic advantage, if you desire to burn calories, but in a game I would conserve energy and take my time.

Thinking, by the way, is a SLOW and ABSORBING activity. It traps attention that should be directed to observe the ball and the reality of the situation. Incredibly, if you take your time you feel that you have MORE time.

Give it a try.

Move slowly, gracefully, drag your feet a bit, use your balance or unbalance to move at will and to stroke the ball. You'll learn from yourself that tennis is an easy and slow sport.

The rush people create involves them in more and more rush. On the contrary, calmness and observation leads to more time.

teachestennis
08-25-2009, 08:59 AM
Hi Larry,

I was just kidding with my comment. By now, you should know I will never let up on the importance of footwork. It is thee most important part of a players tennis game. It is also one where you need to practice to become proficient at it so it becomes smooth and natural for you.

It is utter nonsense to think that if a player moves his left foot before his right (and he shouldn't) that we should leave them alone because that is "natural" even though he can get a a ball. However, what about the 10th ball? When do we step in when we start noticing a breakdown in the footwork that prevented a player from getting that 10th ball?

Footwork is not always "natural" for many people and even for those that it comes easier for, they may not be so good moving to a certain side. And when a player gets tired, footwork is one of the first things to go.

Here is an example of that:

“He’s not satisfied,” Stefanki said. “He’s looking for ways to get better at his level. The guy has been one in the world and won a Slam. He wants to win another. What’s it going to take?”

Stefanki said he and Roddick had worked on Roddick’s footwork and backhand technique, trying to improve his movement to that wing and bring his contact point in closer to his body. Stefanki said the emphasis had been on three primary areas: Roddick’s returns, his net play and his ability to do more with the frequently weak retorts — Stefanki calls them “dead balls” — to his powerful serves.

“That’s what he’s focused on the last six months, and that’s what’s going to win the U.S. Open on a faster surface and Wimbledon,” Stefanki said.

So, we have an outstanding tennis player going back to the basics to help him improve. However, there are some that will make people believe here that footwork is natural or just evolves. Tell that to Roddick after six months of training. And we are not talking about pie-in-the-sky training. He is preparing to win Wimbledon (which he nearly did) and win the US Open, which he very well could.

So, when it comes to footwork, you need to practice it because you need to mix different patterns together and they require timing, footspeed and quickness to be able to execute them faster and faster and faster.

Split-steps are a timing pattern and with timing, you need to practice it.

Hi BB, I would not disagree with what you said, I just approach it when to emphasize it differently and I agree totally with what Stefanki said. You are right about how even pros go back to the basics, but I would say that Roddick moving his contact point inward is more a function of how he finds
the ball, and the can drill is used at every level to teach people to move to the wing, but Seles used small steps whereas Venus will use larger steps. That is a personal preference. They do not use the same patterns to get to the wing. How does this strike you? Do you disagree with anything I typed out below given it's how I explain it.

"Good positioning is obviously an important piece of the game. By consciously focusing on taking small steps takes away from allowing your mind to think and decide what shot you are going play. Small unneeded steps can actually result in poor balance. I believe that good footwork needs to be efficient and according to the situation. Your footwork needs to be smooth and fluid and “happy feet” does not promote this. It is much more effective to quiet your feet and let them react more naturally. Don’t get me wrong, there are times when small adjustment steps are necessary but you are not being efficient if you take 10 little steps to a shot that need 2 regular balanced steps."

I demo what the pros do, and teach them to emulate the pros footwork, I just guide the, that's the difference. And balance is key also. Nadal likes to lean over with his head, Federer likes to lean with his shoulder, something Oscar taught me. Both are very different, but very personal. Players should be given choices as to what works best. As a coach, I allow my players to create, and find what works best for them, even though I have to sometimes be honest with them that they are not getting great results, while accepting that it's a process, on a gradient, and that they have to take responsiblity for their own conditioning and fitness level, which yes, aids proper footwork.

Bungalo Bill
08-26-2009, 11:12 PM
I'll bite on this one given Bungalow Bill is probably being facetious here given there is a school of thought led by Oscar Wegner that teaches beginners to emphasize natural footwork while they develop their finding the ball skill and learning to power the ball to the finish by hitting up and across.

More Oscasr Wegner BS. Great. Where are the Jumpulse folks when you need them? Thank god Oscar is the only one in the universe that knows what to do!

I could give a darn what the so-called "Father of Tennis" says. There are some coaches that don't teach footwork for awhile. There are those coaches that teach basic patterns with stroke development right away. What is natural footwork? And does everyone show up with the same exact ability to exercise this natural footwork? The answer is no.

MTM coaches teach footwork through drills. Every single one of my players learns to split step, but I might not start emphasizing it until I've finished showing them the biomechanical techniques of the double bend windshield wiper forehand which begins with teaching the swing from the contact point forward to the finish by bending the arm and then learning to associate the butt of the racket with the direction of the ball.

No kidding. The split-step is a timing step and it is not what I consider a basic pattern that is learned for beginners. Beginners usually can't time things with their feet, body, and stroke all at the same time unless you slow the feed down a lot and they have had a chance to progress a bit. Still, with beginners, it is better to just use shuffle steps and move them eventually toward split-steps.

Wow, I finally feel I have arrived. I am one with Oscar in mind, soul, and body. Thank you Lord Oscar for your invention of the modern stroke and your learn tennis in 2 hours. Nobody can do what you do.

We then teach students to hit the ball watching it come down walking BACKWARDS from the net to the baseline with slow natural steps backwards, not turning the feet, just learning to make the arms independent of the feet.

Then we teach them to walk forwards from the baseline to the net, again, just "touch the ball" then "touch the shoulder."

Really? All of that? I can teach a forehand and backhand with some basic non-timing related footwork in an hour. What is taking Oscar so long???

After we have a FH and a BH, then we introduce the can drill or the figure eight drill as it's known. This drill is our main drill all the way to the pro level, it just gets harder as you take the student on a learning gradient. We teach just pivoting and turning around the can and allow the student to learn to find the ball on the run, then stroke it and pull their body across back to the can in the middle of the baseline.

I am just amazed that you are the only one on the planet that has players move and hit a ball.

This is where we introduce the split step and I show how you lift up and then land the feet. Since Oscar's Weekly Tennis Tip a few days ago dealt with this issue, I'll let you see how Oscar teaches footwork. We teach a lot of footwork, but we teach it creatively and through drills that teach the student to feel the difference between standing flat footed and springing from what is known as split-step. It's just that we teach it differently and emphasize footwork in much later stages. I have found in my 30 years of teaching that the less I emphasize specific emphasis on the feet, and then just give the student a visual picture and then a drill to test the different ways to move their feet, they invariably figure it out. That is what MTM means by teaching the split step naturally.

Unbelievable. Where have I been. You teach in such profound ways, that I have no clue. You make me look so old. I am one of those coaches that Oscar described is a detriment to tennis. I have never heard of teaching students how to move and hit a ball. Never.

I had them stand on one side of the court, fed a ball real fast to the other side of the court and yelled at them for not getting to the ball. WOW! WOW! WOW!! AM I A DUMMY!

I also have them stand on their head balancing themselves with both hands and racquet next to them. I (in fun) like to joke with the student at this time to loosen them up a bit so we both have fun and play Simon says. While standing on their head I say "Simon says, clap your hands." If they don't fall over, I say, "Simon says raise both your hands to your feet." Hahaha, it always works!! They always fall over!!

I had no idea that you had them move. "Find the ball and whalla, you are a tennis player." Damn!! I missed that!

Tennis Tip from www.tennisteacher.com (http://www.tennisteacher.com) August 20, 2009: Oscar's own words. You be the judge. Oscar is referring to the new tennisone video done by Doug King last week. These tips go out to over ten thousand players weekly, so Oscar is not afraid to put himself out there. You would be surprised if you know how many top coaches use this system based on the Power of Simplicity. The reason we started certifying MTM coaches was to make sure all our coaches knew how to teach MTM properly given as Bungalow Bill can tell you, a lot of "Wegner Method" coaches out there had misconceptions given there was no ongoing training or clarification about what Oscar really taught and how he taught it.

Well, I wrote back and forth to Wegner himself. Gave him plenty of rope to hang himself with. I asked him why do these photos in 1926 show the western forehand and modern swing? I thought he claimed he invented it. He actually started to talk about Scientology garbage then. I then showed him exactly what I meant on preparing early and prepared my case, this time he didn't answer.

Now why not? Is Oscar afraid? The "Father of Tennis" and his Scientology bent is a flat out joke.

However, I am glad he is finally coming around and softening his "method". Maybe he figured he looked pretty stupid when video evidence is everywhere that pros prepare well before the bounce of the ball.

It's bad enough there are myths about Oscar which I have tried to clear up. Any teaching can be misinterpreted unless their is some method or procedure to clear it up, and that is why MTMCA was formed. Therefore we are about to go public with Modern Tennis Methodology Coaching Academy which we tested for a year working out the kinks. We think it's the best coaching value for the money and is only to set the foundational biomechanical techniques and allow each coach to get instant results with the masses that are not produced by any other teaching method. Anyone can coach the better athletes, but MTM brings tennis to the masses and that is the role Oscar Wegner chose to adopt for himself. Many of our coaches are USPTA and PTR certified (like myself). Several are former Davis Cup coaches, former top players (at least one in top 80 in the world) and I assure you there are former top players who are current top coaches who use these tenets. Evidence and history prove that no system has enjoyed the succcess of MTM. The USPTA keeps changing every few years; now it's load and explode, and if you don't think Oscar influenced their moving to phase out conventional coaching, then you might want to read the History of Tennis Instruction on www.moderntenniscoaches.com (http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com). Our latest MTM certified coach is the Head Woman's Tennis Coach from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. Must work for him.

Oh so now they are Oscar tennis myths. Poor misguided souls from Oscars brainwashing school that go out explaining the "Oscar way" in the "wrong way". Shame on those people. However, wouldn't you think after I showed him photos and videos he would have commented?

Bungalo Bill
08-26-2009, 11:29 PM
Hi BB, I would not disagree with what you said, I just approach it when to emphasize it differently and I agree totally with what Stefanki said. You are right about how even pros go back to the basics, but I would say that Roddick moving his contact point inward is more a function of how he finds
the ball, and the can drill is used at every level to teach people to move to the wing, but Seles used small steps whereas Venus will use larger steps. That is a personal preference. They do not use the same patterns to get to the wing. How does this strike you? Do you disagree with anything I typed out below given it's how I explain it.

Huh? So now Roddick is using Oscar the Cookie Monsters methods? I had no idea that you folks now look for pros and make claims they are using your methods. Wow, wonder what Roddick would say.

BB: "Hi Roddick, I really saw you working on your footwork and incorporating yoru movement to the ball and being able to recgnoze the short ball sooner."

Roddick: "What kind of drugs are you on man! Hahahaha, and you call yourself a coach? I wasn't doing any of that. I was simply "finding the ball" and I didn't prepare early either. You really need to get your head examined and learn what to look for before you call yourself a coach. Just want to say Hi to Oscar, my game would be nowhere without you. Get lost BB and go learn something.

"Good positioning is obviously an important piece of the game. By consciously focusing on taking small steps takes away from allowing your mind to think and decide what shot you are going play. Small unneeded steps can actually result in poor balance. I believe that good footwork needs to be efficient and according to the situation.

I must have missed something. Did someone say that you need to constantly make small steps? Or is this another one of those "Oscar putting words in someones mouth." Maybe Oscar also spreads myths about himself and others.

Your footwork needs to be smooth and fluid and “happy feet” does not promote this. It is much more effective to quiet your feet and let them react more naturally. Don’t get me wrong, there are times when small adjustment steps are necessary but you are not being efficient if you take 10 little steps to a shot that need 2 regular balanced steps."

Now this is what separates you from me. Wow, I had no idea that footwork should be smooth. I taught my students to take big clumps towards the ball. In fact, we had them balance a glass full of water on their heads. As soon as they moved, we wanted the glass to go to the floor and break. Large big ol' clumpy steps is what we are (were) after. I thank god for you. You rescued me.

I demo what the pros do, and teach them to emulate the pros footwork, I just guide the, that's the difference. And balance is key also. Nadal likes to lean over with his head, Federer likes to lean with his shoulder, something Oscar taught me. Both are very different, but very personal. Players should be given choices as to what works best. As a coach, I allow my players to create, and find what works best for them, even though I have to sometimes be honest with them that they are not getting great results, while accepting that it's a process, on a gradient, and that they have to take responsiblity for their own conditioning and fitness level, which yes, aids proper footwork.

You allow players to just create. Wow. I have them take a crap a certain color. They have to pick their nose at the top of the hour or at the bottom of the hour, pick their butt.

I am so darn rigid that they have to move their feet exactly like Federer does and only Federer. I never want them to learn on their own. I want clones.

But thanks to you, I am now free. I had no idea I could teach footwork patterns and efficient/effective ways to move to the ball and allow them to build in their preferences! I had no idea!

THANK YOU LORD WEGNER FOR FREEING ME.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 05:10 AM
Chill Bil,

You are one of the most knowledgeable men on this forum, and I respect you very much, and I have learned a lot from you over the years, I had a different name on here years ago.

Oscar has a following because twenty million people quit tennis and he feels tennis instrctuion must be simplified. He also chose to set a base foundation with the correct biomechanical techniques, and though many coaches always want the most determined and the most athletic, since I teach MTM I observe very average athletes wanting to and being able to emulate pro strokes in form and efficiency, certainly not at those speeds.

Everyone has their role in tennis. I chose to cast my lot at the grassroots and help reform tennis instruction because after 25 yaers, I knew something was wrong and if the USA does such a great job teaching their coaches how to teach tennis, then why did we go from 69 top players to a dozen?

Genetic mutants in Serbia? Nothing else to do in Russia except tennis? Hate to tell you but the facts are Russians up to age 13 often play tennis less than half what their american counterparts do, and I'm talking about the ones who grow up to be champions. Todd Martin played five hours a week, never went to an academy, discovered in his first year on tour he had to redo his entire game to learn the topspin game, quit stepping into the ball, and hit off the back foot (that's his words, which I have posted right here below this, not mine).

Too bad you feel demeaned. I come on here to help people and to get them to look at a different viewpoint, and I notice some people respond very positively and even thank me, even someone who has worked with you.

Everyone has their role. I can't change every mind, but I can help a few players breakthrough because this forum is so popular exactly because everyone wants help.

Oscar never claimed to invent modern tennis, he observed from the 1920s pics and film you mentioned that there should be a RETURN to that swing used by Bill Tilden and Bill Johnston, who played in seven US Open finals with a big severe western grip hitting the ball on the same side of the strings.

I even cover this in my History of Tennis article on www.moderntenniscoaches.com in the MTM library.

Also, Oscar was not even the first to suggest emulating the pros best strokes individually. I make that very clear in the History article. Tom Stow in print in 1948 was unless I missed something in the 250 tennis books I researched. But he was the only coach emphasizing open stance and the windshield wiper to take it to the masses and try and force the governing bodies to do so. Spain happened to be the first country to buy into it over the objections of coaches like you, apparently. Good thing they didn't listen to their coaches and tested the evidence. There was a reason they brought Oscar to Spain and gave him a group of kids and said "let's see what you do with them." In six months, his kids were dominating and he won his argument on court.

If the USA keeps doing the same thing they did, they'll get the same results. Who did Patrick McEnroe hire to reform our top juniors play? A Spaniard. Where do we send our top juniors now to learn to play? Spain!

Something is not right in our teaching system.

Is Todd Martin wrong? #4 in the world and now working with Djokovic. In his own words.

But there’s no more damning myth than to tell somebody to move their feet more. This became clear to me at the US Open a few years ago. It was hot and Lleyton Hewit and Gustavo Kuerten came on the court to hit after us. Both of them are great players and were at this time. I was most amazed that they took no more than two movements for any ball after the split step, and I just couldn’t believe that. It called into question so many things I had learned. I grew up watching Jimmy Connors with happy feet, literally machine gun feet, and here I was watching two of the best players on the tour, doing one tenth the amount of work that Jimmy Connors did, and probably half the work that I tried to do for each ball, and they did so without ever losing balance, they were always well loaded for their shots, and they were never late, never late at all. What I’ve come to know is that all those steps that I took because I was so concerned about being in the right position took time away from me, there just wasn’t enough time for me to get into the right position because the ball was coming back and forth too quickly, and now efficiency of movement is much more important than the quickness of the movements.

This brings me to loading, which I would say is at least misinterpreted or misunderstood often. I can’t stand hearing the statement “hit off the front foot.” I think the back foot lays the ground work for every groundstroke. If that back foot is not in position and not fully loaded, we are incapable of hitting quality consistent ground strokes. Indeed, sometimes we fire from out back foot to our front foot, and that’s understandable, but more times than not, at least at the professional level, the loading and the firing continues the player in another direction other than forward . Compare it to a shortstop. Derek Jeter has to go to his right to field a ground ball. The first thing he does, if it’s within range, he gets his right side loaded behind the ground ball, backhands the ball and fires from that right side towards first base. Imagine Jeter being taken further into the hole, and he doesn’t’ have time to plant and fire towards first base, what does he do? He jumps to create energy so he can throw the ball back in the direction that he is moving away from, not moving towards, and I think this is very similar to the way to especially hit a forehand, but a backhand as well. In tennis, as players, what we have to do as players is fight to get behind the ball and then fire, fire whatever direction we can, but fire. This loading is essential and for us, I think we’re just fortunate we have tennis rackets to do it with rather than throw from the shortstop hole.

The paragraph I asked you to cite criticizing happy feet is from Kelly Jones' article top ten overrated teaching methods. Is Kelly Jones wrong?

He was #1 world ranked in doubles, and coached one junior to #17 in the world, another to #35 in the world, and coached Xavier Mallise to his first tour win as well as many others. He was a USTA national coach who left the USTA because he knew something was wrong and there was a better way.

Truth withstands any attack, Bill. Also I taught the shuffle to beginners exactly like you did and then when I tested the evidence on court I discovered that when I never teach a shuffle to beginner students I got much better results from the student as they excitedly realize they don't have to focus on footwork patterns that detract from their finding the ball and pulling across it. I simple ask them to not shuffle and instead just pivot (turns their shoulders automatically) and step out to the ball with their outside foot and pull across the finish with the butt of the racket pointing to where they want the ball to go. I still don't know why it works so well, but it works better than any other way I've seen and I have tested just about everything, I believe. Later on, I teach them to shuffle naturally, to conserve energy, to glide across the court with balance, with often produces a natural shuffle as they develop their footwork....with purpose. My experience is shuffling serves no real purpose in the beginning. I had a hard time with this, but who cares if it works.

Russian coaches teach one technique. I document that here:

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18


Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I even use things I learned from you, Bill, but the old ways have got to go if we are to restore tennis to it's rightful place as a sport for the masses like it is in other countries. I'm tired of excuses for why the USA can't develop more champions.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 06:01 AM
Bill, I also asked you was anything wrong in the History of Tennis Instruction I posted. I even wanted and asked for your feedback because I respect you so much. I even mention in it Nicky B is probably considered the coach with the greatest influence on the game even though personally I would rather credit a man who has brought tennis to the masses and forced entire teaching organizations to step back and realize there might be a better way. It was Oscar Wegner that tennisone.com acclaimed as "History Proved Him Right" not Nicky B, yet I observe what the public thinks, which may or may not be true. As we know, Mozart was not famed or credited as the genius he was until he died. I suspect Oscar will not get such credit while alive given revolutions are never without spilled blood, even in tennis, and I guess it's hard for the old horses to change, It's all right here in the History of Tennis Instruction.

People are being led to believe that coaches aren't teaching the old way when look at this.

2009 USTA Quickstart Manual:

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/quickstartfh.jpg

Paul Annacone just stated to Gene Garber that kids want to emulate the pros. Well, does this swing in the USTA 2009 manual look like teaching how to emulate the pros? It's the old 1960, turn step and hit and nothing likely destroys tennis players like teaching false muscle memory that they will have to undo later.

Contrast this above with how the Russians teach and I quote them at Spartak using words like "feel" and "finish more thoroughly" both fundamentals of MTM.

Notice the open hips the rackets down the spine of the back, the student almost kissing the elbow, exactly as Oscar teaches for beginners of all ages. The girl on far right has a western grip, something Lansdorp claims ruins american juniors. Good thing the Russians don't listen to the guy who claims to be the best tennis coach in the world (which Bollettieri claims he without doubt is). Oscar never has claimed such. When he gave a copy of his book to Nick personally in 1992, he inscribed it "To the best American Tennis Coach." If you want to know the truth about where Oscar has been for forty one years and compare what he was teaching with everyone else on a timeline, it's all on www.moderntenniscoaches.com in the MTM library.

These are normal kids off the street and yet with no private lessons, no strategy and tactics taught nor playing in tournamets for the first three year, this little run down tennis club with ONE indoor court produces more top twenty players than the entire USA the last seven years. Good thing they don't start their tiny tots with the USTA method above, I guess, or should they be?

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/spartaktinytotweb.jpg

Oscar has only invented a methodology, a blue print, the fastest proven way to play like the pros. You can get there a hundred ways, Dr. Pete Fischer figured this out on his own, hundreds of coaches did through time by observing what works, but no one before Oscar laid it out in a simple step by step progression that works for the masses and for the greatest number of players. That is all he claims he does and then it's up to rest of the coaches to allow their players to create upon that foundation. As a tennis coach, he taught me my job is to not introduce misconceptions, such as stepping into the ball for more power, for which there is even a separate thread on here on front page, which is too bad, as that player will likely never know an alternative viewpoint to test the data. I agree with Todd Martin ccompletely. People on this forum need to see different viewpoints. Why can't you just let them see a different viewpoint and test the data without attacking or misrepresenting Oscar's views such as he claimed to invent this or that, or that he's the only one who's right. Someone has to stir the pot and keep tennis instruction simplified and in the right direction. Evidence and history are on his side. I don't follow Oscar; I follow his results. Show me something that gets better results and I'll promote it with every bit of passion I do with MTM.

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/Tom Okker.jpg

This is a 1975 modern tennis swing that looks suspiciously like Federer's and is described as the most lethal topspin forehand in 35 years by the editors of Tennis magazine in their Best of Tennis Strokes compilation. They also tell that to hit the most lethal topspin in 35 years this way is WRONG, a "mechanical and cramped style" and they attack it despite it's effectiveness. This is why the USA went down: we didn't allow players to play biomechanically correct, and a few broke through in spite of, not because of what the alphabet soups were advocating. They all thought this swing was wrong. It's the exact swing Oscar believed should be taught to everyone from day one and he taught it to every student in Spain and since that time. What is wrong with that? I only explained how MTM teaches to play better tennis, and point out that people have a choice between the contradictory data that is given on this site.

Or is Kelly Jones wrong when he claims that "Don't Wait for the Ball" is a myth. As you know, Oscar advocates "wait for the ball until the last second" in order to see the ball in present time and not through mental image pictures of where you think the ball will go. Something very unorthodox and I hard a hard time understanding at first.

Kelly Jones in his own words: "Here in America we are taught to never let your opponent back into the court and always take time away from them. Learning to wait for the ball changed my career. Much of this philosophy is a result of playing on faster surfaces. The problem with this method is that players get in a panic mode. They will tend to rush easy put-a-way balls and often miss because of rushing. All the great players today know how to do what is called “hold” the ball. What does holding the ball mean? Well, they have essentially learned to wait for the ball. By waiting or holding the ball the players take the time to hit the right shot or take time to let their opponent make a move and then play the appropriate shot. The concept of “holding the ball” often can leave many of your opponents literally incapable of making a move for your shot. Sometimes you’ll take away your opponents’ time and other times you will deliberately hold the ball until your opponents made a move before you hit the shot."

firstblud
08-27-2009, 09:15 AM
^^

so MTM teaches only open stance forehand? what about neutral stance (like in the child's drawing picture above)? i believe fuzzy yellow balls teaches the forehand "the old 1960, turn step and hit" neutral stance way.

is there only one stance for the backhand too with MTM (open?)?

thnx

Cindysphinx
08-27-2009, 09:52 AM
Question is WHEN do you split step ??? You can't teach the same thing you teach to the Junior comptetive player to the 50 year old amateur. the Timing of When you split step is completely different.
YOu would teach a fast Junior to split step Just before the ball hits the racket strings of your opponent vs you would teach a older amateur player to split step as the ball hits the ground of your opponent as it bounces.
Why ???? cause older amateur is much slower in reacting to the ball so need more time to react to the shot coming off of their opponent.

Really?

There's no way I would split-step so early. I mean, I wouldn't even have finished my recovery if I split when the ball bounces on my opponent's side.

Keep in mind that the ball is going a lot more slowly for an older amateur than a pro or competitive junior. So if a geezer such as myself splits when my ball bounces, I will be holding a split step for an eternity.

I personally don't follow any hard and fast rule about when to split. I split whenever it seems right to split, which is usually when my opponent is about to make contact. I don't try to time it any more exactly than that, because if I do then I will have a beautifully timed split-step and nothing else. :)

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 10:41 AM
^^

so MTM teaches only open stance forehand? what about neutral stance (like in the child's drawing picture above)? i believe fuzzy yellow balls teaches the forehand "the old 1960, turn step and hit" neutral stance way.

is there only one stance for the backhand too with MTM (open?)?

thnx

In the beginning, MTM emphasizes an open stance forehand. We quiet the feet, teaching them to simply find the ball and from the contact point forward bend their arm by pulling right to left and finishing over their shoulder with the butt on their shoulder teaching them to associate the butt of the racket with where they want the ball to go. I often have to take adults who have been playing for years and put their toes on the service line, then lay a racket on their left foot, and then ask them to find the ball and bend the arm and kiss their elbow like you see the little Russian girl from Spartak. I teach that to every single beginner and intermediate, and as they hit more across the ball, the finish will then come down more near their shoudler or their bicep. But kids have to develop their forearms a bit before coaches should allow a severe down by the hip finish such as some pros windshield wipering across so fast they would break their collar bones if they tried to finish like the little girl. Djokovic still finishes up near his shoulder, though, and I think he has a top five forehand.

We teach open stance and then natural footwork, and show them that a closed stance forehand occurs incidentally or when you are moving in the course of "stalking" the ball (stalking or tracking means keeping both hands on the racket in front of you, as if you were going to catch it, keeps the ball within your range). Even when the pros start from a closed stance, they finish with an open stance because they hit so fast ACROSS the ball. So there is not "turn, step, and hit finish with a closed stance" in tennis unless by accident. It's important to teach beginners to emulate the pros movements from day 1.

We teach 1HBH closed stance but show by pulling across (MTM never teaches to hit conciously through the target line) but that you can hit an occasional 1HBH from on open stance. We teach to use the back muscles and long muscles on the bh but lifting up and squeezing your shoulder blades together as tightly as possible.

MTM teaches an open stance 2HBH first (Azarenka, Hingis, and Venus and Serena all use primarily open stance 2HBH) and then in the course of our teaching we show them that you can find the ball from a closed stance 2HBH and allow them to choose which works best and we help them discover which works best under each situation, given open stance 2HBHs provide power as well as a quicker recovery and allow you to hold the ball longer and hide it from your opponent.

I read fuzzyyellowballs carefully. He is teaching what the USTA believes is the best way to start beginners but I disagree totally, when I tested MTM versus the turn step and hit, I have never had a student go off my court not feeling like tennis is a lot simpler to play than they thought. The main reason the open stance forehand is easier for little kids is try to shake hands from a closed stance. It's awkward and finding the ball from the contact point forward by bending the arm to the finish is proven to be the best way to get instant results. I know why the USTA teaches the way they do, I read all USPTA, PTR and USTA literature for my upcoming book research. We (the USA) lost twenty million tennis players, didn't we, nearly all who took lessons and found tennis too difficult for all but the most gifted or most determined and disciplined. I personally will quit teaching tennis before I ever teach a closed stance FH again to beginners and lose most of my players like I did for 25 years listening to the so called "experts." This doesn't mean I don't use one occassionally or I don't show my students how to finish with an open stance on all forehands and 2HBHs (like the pros do), but that's my experience.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 10:48 AM
Chill Bil,

You are one of the most knowledgeable men on this forum, and I respect you very much, and I have learned a lot from you over the years, I had a different name on here years ago.


I even cover this in my History of Tennis article on www.moderntenniscoaches.com (http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com) in the MTM library.

Also, Oscar was not even the first to suggest emulating the pros best strokes individually. I make that very clear in the History article. Tom Stow in print in 1948 was unless I missed something in the 250 tennis books I researched. But he was the only coach emphasizing open stance and the windshield wiper to take it to the masses and try and force the governing bodies to do so. Spain happened to be the first country to buy into it over the objections of coaches like you, apparently. Good thing they didn't listen to their coaches and tested the evidence. There was a reason they brought Oscar to Spain and gave him a group of kids and said "let's see what you do with them." In six months, his kids were dominating and he won his argument on court.

If the USA keeps doing the same thing they did, they'll get the same results. Who did Patrick McEnroe hire to reform our top juniors play? A Spaniard. Where do we send our top juniors now to learn to play? Spain!

Something is not right in our teaching system.

Is Todd Martin wrong? #4 in the world and now working with Djokovic. In his own words.

But there’s no more damning myth than to tell somebody to move their feet more. This became clear to me at the US Open a few years ago. It was hot and Lleyton Hewit and Gustavo Kuerten came on the court to hit after us. Both of them are great players and were at this time. I was most amazed that they took no more than two movements for any ball after the split step, and I just couldn’t believe that. It called into question so many things I had learned. I grew up watching Jimmy Connors with happy feet, literally machine gun feet, and here I was watching two of the best players on the tour, doing one tenth the amount of work that Jimmy Connors did, and probably half the work that I tried to do for each ball, and they did so without ever losing balance, they were always well loaded for their shots, and they were never late, never late at all. What I’ve come to know is that all those steps that I took because I was so concerned about being in the right position took time away from me, there just wasn’t enough time for me to get into the right position because the ball was coming back and forth too quickly, and now efficiency of movement is much more important than the quickness of the movements.

This brings me to loading, which I would say is at least misinterpreted or misunderstood often. I can’t stand hearing the statement “hit off the front foot.” I think the back foot lays the ground work for every groundstroke. If that back foot is not in position and not fully loaded, we are incapable of hitting quality consistent ground strokes. Indeed, sometimes we fire from out back foot to our front foot, and that’s understandable, but more times than not, at least at the professional level, the loading and the firing continues the player in another direction other than forward . Compare it to a shortstop. Derek Jeter has to go to his right to field a ground ball. The first thing he does, if it’s within range, he gets his right side loaded behind the ground ball, backhands the ball and fires from that right side towards first base. Imagine Jeter being taken further into the hole, and he doesn’t’ have time to plant and fire towards first base, what does he do? He jumps to create energy so he can throw the ball back in the direction that he is moving away from, not moving towards, and I think this is very similar to the way to especially hit a forehand, but a backhand as well. In tennis, as players, what we have to do as players is fight to get behind the ball and then fire, fire whatever direction we can, but fire. This loading is essential and for us, I think we’re just fortunate we have tennis rackets to do it with rather than throw from the shortstop hole.

The paragraph I asked you to cite criticizing happy feet is from Kelly Jones' article top ten overrated teaching methods. Is Kelly Jones wrong?

He was #1 world ranked in doubles, and coached one junior to #17 in the world, another to #35 in the world, and coached Xavier Mallise to his first tour win as well as many others. He was a USTA national coach who left the USTA because he knew something was wrong and there was a better way.

Truth withstands any attack, Bill. Also I taught the shuffle to beginners exactly like you did and then when I tested the evidence on court I discovered that when I never teach a shuffle to beginner students I got much better results from the student as they excitedly realize they don't have to focus on footwork patterns that detract from their finding the ball and pulling across it. I simple ask them to not shuffle and instead just pivot (turns their shoulders automatically) and step out to the ball with their outside foot and pull across the finish with the butt of the racket pointing to where they want the ball to go. I still don't know why it works so well, but it works better than any other way I've seen and I have tested just about everything, I believe. Later on, I teach them to shuffle naturally, to conserve energy, to glide across the court with balance, with often produces a natural shuffle as they develop their footwork....with purpose. My experience is shuffling serves no real purpose in the beginning. I had a hard time with this, but who cares if it works.

Russian coaches teach one technique. I document that here:

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18


Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I even use things I learned from you, Bill, but the old ways have got to go if we are to restore tennis to it's rightful place as a sport for the masses like it is in other countries. I'm tired of excuses for why the USA can't develop more champions.

You are full of it to think I am going to let you apply your methods on eveyr pro. You are full of it to think I am going to allow you to claim Oscar is god for tennis teaching. You are full of it to think I am going to sit here and let you promote Wegners teaching as the Holy Grail and that he deserves all credit for the modern strokes we see today that have hit the masses without considering yesteryear technology, instruction, racquets, courts, grips, strings, etc...and mostly you are full of it if you think I am going to sit here and read your BS on "your way is the only way" to teach tennis and label everyone that isn't is using USPTA old teaching instruction because they are too stupid to see it any other way.

You are going to get a lot of flack from me on this because I know something about this. I also have tried to converse with your Scientology Guru. Your footwork position is hilarious. You really think you cornered the market on when to introduce split-steps or the building blocks to footwork training. I am flabbergasted as to how numb you have become to the chip-on-the-shoulder mantras of Wegner and his lieutenants.

I am getting a bit tired of people like you that think Wegner is the only to teach tennis.

I am getting a bit tired of people like you that think Wegner is the only one that teaches building blocks to footwork and incorporates footwork training in their development of a player.

I am getting a bit tired of people like you that think coaches outside of your BS don't allow for a players natural ability and coordination to develop through training. It is pure nonsense and insulting.

I am getting a bit tired of the propoganda of Wegner follows labelling other coaches mindlessly following USPTA systems when they don't.

I am getting tired of hearing that only Wegner and his followers can teach someone tennis in 2 hours and nobody else can because we teach from the 1800's.

It is absolutely ridiculous to apply this nonsense to the masses to promote your way as the only way or that other coaches that don't use your way are simply out of touch.

If you continue with this nonsense I will drag this conversation down to h_ _ _.

You insult me with your "higher than thou" approach to teaching me how to introduce footwork into a players development. You insult me with your preaching that I am antiquated with my teach when I will run circles around your BS. You insult me period and I wont let this go until you realize that Wegner is a way of teaching and there are other ways of teaching that are modernized and do not follow the USPTAs book on teaching tennis.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 10:49 AM
Really?

There's no way I would split-step so early. I mean, I wouldn't even have finished my recovery if I split when the ball bounces on my opponent's side.

Keep in mind that the ball is going a lot more slowly for an older amateur than a pro or competitive junior. So if a geezer such as myself splits when my ball bounces, I will be holding a split step for an eternity.

I personally don't follow any hard and fast rule about when to split. I split whenever it seems right to split, which is usually when my opponent is about to make contact. I don't try to time it any more exactly than that, because if I do then I will have a beautifully timed split-step and nothing else. :)

I couldn't have said it better, Cindy. You really are waiting to the last second and then trusting your instincts and we call what you described as learning natural footwork, "your" natural footwork timed with your physiological capability. You can teach the split step to any of my students anytime.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 11:10 AM
I couldn't have said it better, Cindy. You really are waiting to the last second and then trusting your instincts and we call what you described as learning natural footwork, "your" natural footwork timed with your physiological capability. You can teach the split step to any of my students anytime.

This is why Wegner is great for beginners. This is what we have been saying all along. This is what Wegner your guru didn't have the guts to answer. His teaching is for beginners. End of story, we agree.

Since the ball takes more than a second to go from one side of the court to the other, a beginner and their moon balls can wait to prepare later rather than earlier. Obviously.

Wegners propoganda takes a dump in the toilet when the ball speeds up at the 4.0 and above level. And please dont tell me the pros have all grown up solely using his methods. We already called Oscar "Father" Wegner on that one.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 11:52 AM
You are full of it to think I am going to let you apply your methods on eveyr pro. You are full of it to think I am going to allow you to claim Oscar is god for tennis teaching. You are full of it to think I am going to sit here and let you promote Wegners teaching as the Holy Grail and that he deserves all credit for the modern strokes we see today that have hit the masses without considering yesteryear technology, instruction, racquets, courts, grips, strings, etc...and mostly you are full of it if you think I am going to sit here and read your BS on "your way is the only way" to teach tennis and label everyone that isn't is using USPTA old teaching instruction because they are too stupid to see it any other way.

You are going to get a lot of flack from me on this because I know something about this. I also have tried to converse with your Scientology Guru. Your footwork position is hilarious. You really think you cornered the market on when to introduce split-steps or the building blocks to footwork training. I am flabbergasted as to how numb you have become to the chip-on-the-shoulder mantras of Wegner and his lieutenants.

I am getting a bit tired of people like you that think Wegner is the only to teach tennis.

It is absolutely ridiculous to apply this nonsense to the masses to promote your way as the only way or that other coaches that don't use your way are simply out of touch.

You insult me with your "higher than thou" approach to teaching me how to introduce footwork into a players development. You insult me with your preaching that I am antiquated with my teach when I will run circles around your BS. You insult me period and I wont let this go until you realize that Wegner is a way of teaching and there are other ways of teaching that are modernized and do not follow the USPTAs book on teaching tennis.
Bill,

Kind of like going to a fight and seeing a hockey game break out! :) I don't teach this is the only way. I made that clear I just claim its' a simple play by feel method that gets incredible results. I never said you were antiquated, I only said that there are tons of grassroots coaches out there how teach antiquated, and they do. I admire you, Bill, and I even quote you and refer to your posts to some who ask me for advice.

I'm just pointing out that there are different viewpoints and players should be able to choose and coaches should also be aware of the different viewpoints. I see kids hitting great who have never heard of Oscar. I have had some come to me. Oscar is a minimalist, first of all. He reduced tennis to one mechanic, from the ball to the shoulder, and if you don't think he was the first coach to publicly advocate the windshield wiper from an open stance, then let me know. He took his theories to Bob Sasano of the USPTA back in 1971 but they weren't interested; but then Spain decided to hire him. Johnny Yandell editor of tennisplayer admitted in May 2009 not one player on tour does not use a windshield wiper since Henman switched in his early '20s. I researched 250 tennis books at least and can't find anyone teaching what is known as the modern tennis swing from day one to students until Oscar appeared. I just showed you Tennis Magazine criticizing and claiming the Modern Tennis Swing is WRONG. How many USA students were just discouraged from copying Laver and Tom Okker's forehands by coaches who were trying to force a predetermined method on them. That is my story, in 1975, I was told I could not swing like Bjorn Borg and not get injured hitting off my back foot. I went from being considered college scholarship junior to a has been who hustled harder than anyone else on court and tried to turn pro with zero success, losing to players I mashed before they changed my swing.

It's interesting that millions of new players take up tennis every year and most of them aren't playing five years later. If all the people thought tennis was simple and easy to play and were taught to quickly rally and have some instant success right away, they might not want to give up the game so easilty. I don't claim others can't get great results. Braden was my mentor up until Oscar but I went with what got the best results. When I first called Oscar and ordered the DVDs and spoke with him I told him Braden was my guru and he never said one thing bad about Braden, just asked what made me order the videos and was surprised when I told him I had ignored him for ten years because Braden told me to be skeptical of anyone who claimed "Tennis in 2 Hours." I had two videos for a year and was just as skeptical as you were. I also believe every pro today plays per Oscar's tenets because he was the first to advocate open stance forehands, emphasis on topspin, using the windshield wiper, and finishing with the butt of the racket wrapping across the body. I, like you, thought his stuff was for beginners. When I mentioned I used to play against some great college pros such as Flach and Seguso, Oscar mentioned he had taught a kick serve to Robbie Seguso after he taught a great one to his sister Karen, a great player also, and I told Oscar I did not know he worked with advanced players. He told me when you work with pros, that to keep it simple and play by feel is even more important because one false piece of data can ruin a players game.

I only claim Oscar's MTM is good (I never implied he was a god), only that he was the Mozart of tennis teaching, because it keeps it simple and build correct muscle memory from the very first strokes. If's he Mozart, that doesn't mean Stow is not Bach, and Higueras (who met Oscar and witnessed everything Oscar did in Spain as young 19 year old pro) is not Beethoven. All are great, and all make great music, but each person plays to a different audience. Oscar's audience is the masses, though.

For the readers, it's only fair to point out that Oscar took skeptical guys throughout the years and met them on the court to prove his theories. One tennis photographer who shot all the best tournaments, is coaching a small college tennis team. He sees Oscar who is then the Spanish tennis commentator teaching some very "weird" stuff. Being a tennis photographer, he sees merit in Oscar's claims versus the literature he's reading. He starts taking lessons from Oscar and brings him some soccer players who have never played tennis and in one week, they are able to beat some college tennis players (Div III, mind you). This photographer is impressed enough he starts his own weekly column Turbo Tennis in 1996, his version of MTM, how to quickly play like the pros. His column is one of the most widely read on the internet.

In October 2008, Ron Waite of Turbo Tennis wrote: “The aforementioned Oscar Wegner has written a wonderful book entitled, Play Better Tennis in 2 Hours. Although the claim made in this book's title is a bit difficult to believe, I assure you that Oscar has many examples to prove its veracity. Oscar is a most unconventional tennis teacher. Some doubt his methods and insights, but I would beg to differ. In many ways, I believe Oscar was the "forerunner" with respect to the modern game. His "unorthodox" doctrine has made him an outcast of sorts. But, his devotees will certainly support that he knows what he is doing. I am one. His unorthodox methods and techniques have in major measure become a new orthodoxy! Check this out for yourself.”

What's wrong with letting people check this out for themselves? I make no such claims as you claim I do, only that there are too many coaches teaching outdated and contradictory data, and I stand by that claim, and the USA fall in the rankings is probably and likely due to teaching poor technique to beginners.

Cliff Drysdale told me personally when I asked (not knowing he was a big fan of Oscar's, just caught him during a break) that Oscar has great ideas for tennis teaching, and when he and Oscar reunited at the Home Depot tournment in Los Angeles, they shared memories from their days on tour.

Please chill Bill. I am emailing several people who have contacted me privately with free tips from this forum and they seem to be wanting more and I do all this for free. All I am doing is offering help and a different way of teaching. I never said you didn't teach correctly or that you or everyone taught the USPTA way. I'm PTR Pro certified and I only keep my certification to keep reading the literature but I would quit teaching before I teach turn, step, take adjusting steps, and then hit.

Tennis teaching is changing, and the students need to see the choices and test the data themselves, that is all I represent.

Remember Bill, I only seek to keep it simple for the students. Tennis is not rocket science. I teach "find it, feel it, and finish it" and the students seem to enjoy a high degree of success with that as my core fundmentals.

One last thing, though Oscar is a scientologist, which is a philosophy more than a religion, I find it ironic so many of his followers are devout Christians, and I say that because it's very true in my experience given I meet a lot of coaches and players who use MTM. I always wondered if it's because Christians are open minded truth seekers by nature. At least most of them.

mike53
08-27-2009, 12:00 PM
People are being led to believe that coaches aren't teaching the old way when look at this.

2009 USTA Quickstart Manual:

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/quickstartfh.jpg

Paul Annacone just stated to Gene Garber that kids want to emulate the pros. Well, does this swing in the USTA 2009 manual look like teaching how to emulate the pros?


Last night, I was watching some of the 1981 US Open Mens Final, Borg vs McEnroe, on ESPN2 and both those guys had almost exactly this shot.

2009-1981 = 28 years (behind the times)

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 12:22 PM
This is why Wegner is great for beginners. This is what we have been saying all along. This is what Wegner your guru didn't have the guts to answer. His teaching is for beginners. End of story, we agree.

Since the ball takes more than a second to go from one side of the court to the other, a beginner and their moon balls can wait to prepare later rather than earlier. Obviously.

Wegners propoganda takes a dump in the toilet when the ball speeds up at the 4.0 and above level. And please dont tell me the pros have all grown up solely using his methods. We already called Oscar "Father" Wegner on that one.

Never said the pros grew up using his methods, though many did such as Guga Kuerten, one of the all time great ball strikers of all time, and Paradorn Scrichaphan, whose father used the videos to train him in Thailand, that great tennis hotbed. Even Richard Williams said Oscar's techniques made so much sense he had his Venus and Serena watch them everyday (I assume until they learned them, and they might be the first two Americans who appeared hitting open stance off both sides when they broke through, exactly as Oscar advocates). Your blood must be boiling when you read these posts, I only said that they play per his simple tenets of open stance, ball rotation with topspin emphasis, and hitting with a windshield wiper and letting the complete finish help shape the shot. That is the foundation of MTM.

When the ball speeds up, MTM applies pretty much the same way, in fact, "waiting" is even more important, or is Kelly Jones, who has a record 99 percent of people on this forum would envy, wrong also? I coach a lot of players above 4.5 fairly quickly and I teach the same tenets to 6.0 players (I have given lessons to three satellite tour players, all fans of MTM). I was once Head Pro of a 19 court facility which we filled up with MTM emphasis and the players loved it.

Let's see, Vince Spadea Sr., a piano teacher who learned MTM watching Oscar teach his three young children, hired Oscar again (Oscar had started off the Spadea kids, all three who became national champions) to teach Vince Jr again right before he turned pro. Must have been to get Vince Spadea Jr to hit all those moonballs and with all those 4.0 players. Hate to tell you, but he taught Vince the same principles. But Oscar is not without controversy as all revolutionaries are. When I was in California, Vince Spadea Jr (then coached by Pete Fischer who coached him to the Australian quarters in '08) said he was surprised that Oscar's first book sold so well because coaches really didn't like it at the time. Apparently you are one who still does not like it.

Do I want to listen to Kelly Jones, a top tour player and top coach who claimed that "waiting" saved his career or to contradictory advice? Seems to me I might want to test this theory on court before I just dismiss it out of hand. The readers deserve to know all their options, Bill.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 01:19 PM
Never said the pros grew up using his methods, though many did such as Guga Kuerten, one of the all time great ball strikers of all time, and Paradorn Scrichaphan, whose father used the videos to train him in Thailand, that great tennis hotbed.

Really? I have heard Guga was aware of his methods but didn't use them full on for every single practice. I heard he only just was more of an endorsement than anything else. More like getting paid to say something that weren't his real words or experiences. Sort like me saying "drink Coca Cola" but I prefer to drink Pepsi in real life.

However, who cares for your one person that you bring up, we can bring up hundreds who didn't need Oscars garbage and can actually beat Oscar raised robots.

Even Richard Williams said Oscar's techniques made so much sense he had his Venus and Serena watch them everyday (I assume until they learned them, and they might be the first two Americans who appeared hitting open stance off both sides when they broke through, exactly as Oscar advocates).

Again, compared to what? To the USPTA book that is outdated that nobody uses?

Do you really think you have cornered the market on dissemenating tennis information? That you are the savior to us old broken and rotten coaches that just don't "get it"?

There are a lot of excellent coaches that can paint a picture to a student and teach just as good and even better than Wegner. Further, if people pay attention, teaching tennis isn't rocket science. You have movement, technique, conditioning, and judgement. These are the things players need to learn as they grow in tennis. From there you have strategy and tactics. The other areas are practiced.

You mentioned movement, etc...so what you are saying is unless I have a player move backwards for awhile to setup whatever footwork pattern is coming of that, that I can't use any other exercise or method to do the same thing? It means that because I dont bow down and kiss your butt, that I am in the boat of teaching USPTA by the book stuff?

YOu are out of your mind and this is the reason I am going to read every single post to find and pull what is falls out of your information.

Your blood must be boiling when you read these posts, I only said that they play per his simple tenets of open stance, ball rotation with topspin emphasis, and hitting with a windshield wiper and letting the complete finish help shape the shot. That is the foundation of MTM.

You bet it is boiling. I cant stand people that throw coaches who dont use Oscars ways in one bucket and say they teach this way when you have no clue what you are talking about!!!

Your guru was challenged. He squirmed away from the issues at hand. He started humming and moaning with his little Scientology chants. He was a whoosey.

When the ball speeds up, MTM applies pretty much the same way, in fact, "waiting" is even more important, or is Kelly Jones, who has a record 99 percent of people on this forum would envy, wrong also? I coach a lot of players above 4.5 fairly quickly and I teach the same tenets to 6.0 players (I have given lessons to three satellite tour players, all fans of MTM). I was once Head Pro of a 19 court facility which we filled up with MTM emphasis and the players loved it.

LOL!!! yeah it is called prepare early BEFORE the ball bounces with is evident in countless of videos which your master has failed to recgonize.

Let's see, Vince Spadea Sr., a piano teacher who learned MTM watching Oscar teach his three young children, hired Oscar again (Oscar had started off the Spadea kids, all three who became national champions) to teach Vince Jr again right before he turned pro. Must have been to get Vince Spadea Jr to hit all those moonballs and with all those 4.0 players. Hate to tell you, but he taught Vince the same principles. But Oscar is not without controversy as all revolutionaries are. When I was in California, Vince Spadea Jr (then coached by Pete Fischer who coached him to the Australian quarters in '08) said he was surprised that Oscar's first book sold so well because coaches really didn't like it at the time. Apparently you are one who still does not like it.

No, I am the only one that sees through your BS. You have no claim to inventing the modern tennis game. Your methods are for beginners, because at some point in time, the ball will travel fast from one end of the court to another faster than the player can handle preparing AFTER the ball bounces. That means they must prepare BEFORE the ball bounces or good fricking luck if you don't.

Do I want to listen to Kelly Jones, a top tour player and top coach who claimed that "waiting" saved his career or to contradictory advice? Seems to me I might want to test this theory on court before I just dismiss it out of hand. The readers deserve to know all their options, Bill.

Why would I listen? I can teach a player how to hit a forehand, backhand, run around forehand, serve, volley, and work on footwork in 1 1/2 hours. Your blowhard guru says 2 hours.

I WIN.

firstblud
08-27-2009, 01:23 PM
^^ lol @ I WIN

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 01:26 PM
I will even do it with that crusty old book from the USPTA in 1 hour and 45 minutes (15 minutes to scan through it).

I WIN AGAIN.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 01:34 PM
I can teach a player how to pick his nore, perform a back flip faster than Oscar can "find" the ball. I win.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 01:36 PM
I can even find the ball faster than Oscar and can do it before the point starts, when the point is in progress, and after the point is over. I can even find the ball in the servers hand before he hits the darn ball.

I WIN AGAIN.

Poor Oscar the Cookie Monster.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 01:52 PM
I will even do it with that crusty old book from the USPTA in 1 hour and 45 minutes (15 minutes to scan through it).

I WIN AGAIN.

I thought you woke up on the wrong side of the bed but at least you have not lost your sense of humor.

Oscar only quit writing you when you made it personal. He's always busy working with coaches behind the scenes but will work with anyone being reasonable in my experience. Who cares what religion he is?

Regading the truth about "Guga", how dare you spread such a false rumor. Passos took Guga to the pros but is no doubt very sensitive and jealous of Oscar's having developed him since age 6 working with Carlos Alves and Guga for eight years. Coke versus Pepsi? Do you think Guga would let someone make such a lie and not sue? Even Richard Williams called up Oscar and corrected something on his website to ensure it's accuracy because Oscar had a word wrong on the quote from Richard. I work with Fernando Periera of Brazil who not only used MTM to win a scholarship and play singles at Mississippi, a D1 school, but he witnessed personally what Oscar did in Brazil. Fernando Periera is an MTM certified coach also and works with Oscar Wegner closely as Fernando works with the Brazilian Tennis Federation. Be careful what you say, Bill for your own benefit.

The truth is right here. When Oscar coached Borg, I don't tell you what Oscar said or what I think, I used newspaper reports to tell the results why Bjorn Borg claims Oscar is an amazing coach, making the most advanced concepts of the game simple. Let the readers see the facts. They are all right here. I'm going to publish a book and I've done my homework and continue to do so. This is the real history of what happened year by year. It's just excepts, but read it and feel free to come back here and offer feedback. Bill, I bet you didn't read it.

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13

Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 02:00 PM
I thought you woke up on the wrong side of the bed but at least you have not lost your sense of humor.

Oscar only quit writing you when you made it personal. He's always busy working with coaches behind the scenes but will work with anyone being reasonable in my experience. Who cares what religion he is?

Regading the truth about "Guga", how dare you spread such a false rumor. Passos took Guga to the pros but is no doubt very sensitive and jealous of Oscar's having developed him since age 6 working with Carlos Alves and Guga for eight years. Coke versus Pepsi? Do you think Guga would let someone make such a lie and not sue? Even Richard Williams called up Oscar and corrected something on his website to ensure it's accuracy because Oscar had a word wrong on the quote from Richard. I work with Fernando Periera of Brazil who not only used MTM to win a scholarship and play singles at Mississippi, a D1 school, but he witnessed personally what Oscar did in Brazil. Fernando Periera is an MTM certified coach also and works with Oscar Wegner closely as Fernando works with the Brazilian Tennis Federation. Be careful what you say, Bill for your own benefit.

The truth is right here. When Oscar coached Borg, I don't tell you what Oscar said or what I think, I used newspaper reports to tell the results why Bjorn Borg claims Oscar is an amazing coach, making the most advanced concepts of the game simple. Let the readers see the facts. They are all right here. I'm going to publish a book and I've done my homework and continue to do so. This is the real history of what happened year by year. It's just excepts, but read it and feel free to come back here and offer feedback. Bill, I bet you didn't read it.

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13

Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

I am tired of Wegner clones telling me or other good coaches that they aren't worth a darn unless we teach the way of the Enlightened One.

I don't care for much for that, especially since he bases it on exaggerations and lies.

I can teach graduating building block footwork patterns and don't need Oscars BS. It isn't rocket science, Oscar is not the Father of Modern Tennis, and he didn't teach Guga.

UnforcedError
08-27-2009, 02:02 PM
Last night, I was watching some of the 1981 US Open Mens Final, Borg vs McEnroe, on ESPN2 and both those guys had almost exactly this shot.

2009-1981 = 28 years (behind the times)


Borg hit nothing like that. He definitely hit open stance and often hit reverse forehands although they weren't called that at the time. I don't think they had a name. It was definitely true at that time coaches (I was around several) taught not to hit like Borg, you would get an earful if you tried to emulate him.

I caught a little of the Sampras/Agassi classic US Open match last night and it did seem like Agassi often kept both hands on the racket and would start preparing for the forehand right about the time the ball was bouncing and Sampras was blistering the ball.

I'm coaching agnostic but I would listen to anyone if I thought they could help. I'm always trying to learn ways to improve.

mtommer
08-27-2009, 02:21 PM
You can't teach the same thing you teach to the Junior comptetive player to the 50 year old amateur. the Timing of When you split step is completely different.


You have to teach it the same because the split step has nothing to do with the age of the player. It has to do with having your body weight down but not yet moving to a side so that you can transition to one side or the other more easily as the down motion normally imposed with turning is already facilitated. Which side to turn to is dependent of course upon when the opponent hits the ball. That's what you are reacting to and when this happens has nothing to do with how fast you can react. How fast you can react determines what pace you can handle but that's beside the point. Your opponent doesn't take into account your split step "timing" when they hit the ball. In other words, either be prepared or not when the opponent hits their ball.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 02:22 PM
I thought you woke up on the wrong side of the bed but at least you have not lost your sense of humor.

Oscar only quit writing you when you made it personal. He's always busy working with coaches behind the scenes but will work with anyone being reasonable in my experience. Who cares what religion he is?

Made it personal? LOL!!!!! Now that is funny!

Is that what the coward said? LOL!!!

Wow, the "Enlightened One" was crying. Booo..fricking...hooo.

Poor little baby. And the religion thing? I didn't bring it up. HE BROUGHT IT UP! Of course, in his little indirect sneaky way. I just simply exposed that lie ince he did bring it up and he disappeared because he couldn't refute it. What could he say?

However, before the Scientology garbage happened, I wanted him to give me an answer about the picture that I posted of a player using modern forehand technique in 1926.

I simply asked the "Ageless One", if he taught that person in the picture. I can imagine I might have dented His Majesties ego a bit, maybe that is why he scowered away. The "Father of Lies" Beelzebub himself went into his chanting with his ears plugged. "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...ooooooooooooooooommmmmm...nee, nee, nee, nee, nee, nee, nee...ooooooooooooooooommmmmm..."

You ought to talk to Yandell some time about his encounter(s) with His Majesty Father Tennis the Enlightened One.

Regading the truth about "Guga", how dare you spread such a false rumor. Passos took Guga to the pros but is no doubt very sensitive and jealous of Oscar's having developed him since age 6 working with Carlos Alves and Guga for eight years. Coke versus Pepsi? Do you think Guga would let someone make such a lie and not sue? Even Richard Williams called up Oscar and corrected something on his website to ensure it's accuracy because Oscar had a word wrong on the quote from Richard. I work with Fernando Periera of Brazil who not only used MTM to win a scholarship and play singles at Mississippi, a D1 school, but he witnessed personally what Oscar did in Brazil. Fernando Periera is an MTM certified coach also and works with Oscar Wegner closely as Fernando works with the Brazilian Tennis Federation. Be careful what you say, Bill for your own benefit.

Oh geeeza, man, now why would I be careful now with what I say? I am who I am. Controversial. Tell it like it is. Tell you if you are full of BS and ask you to prove it. I offer my services for nothing.

I have been around tennis way to long to hear the BS that comes out of Oscars the Cookie Monster's camp. Much too long. I have seen this sport mature and it still has a long way to mature. Instruction evolves, coaches evolve, players evolve, equipment evolves and some things are ahead of the game and other things need to catch up.

However, to say Oscar has a corner on the market to the modern way to play tennis is just absolutely foolish. Further, to say that the rest of the coaches fall into one boat "THE OLD CRUSTY ONES", is BS as well. I have not met one coach that pulls out the USPTA tennis manual and says "well, the book says, you are suppose to do it this way."

Now, what I will admit is many coaches lack a process or a method of teaching. They dont know how to put together a lesson, etc...and if they think the Sacred One's lesson plan is great? By all means use it. But dont come here and tell me that you are the only one that discovered gradual building block footwork for players when I know darn well you haven't.

The truth is right here. When Oscar coached Borg, I don't tell you what Oscar said or what I think, I used newspaper reports to tell the results why Bjorn Borg claims Oscar is an amazing coach, making the most advanced concepts of the game simple. Let the readers see the facts. They are all right here. I'm going to publish a book and I've done my homework and continue to do so. This is the real history of what happened year by year. It's just excepts, but read it and feel free to come back here and offer feedback. Bill, I bet you didn't read it.

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13

Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

Oh, Oscar, my Savior, pray for me. I am needing a bop in the head so I can wake up to see your ways. Help me to believe your lies. Help me to believe you are the Father of Tennis even though I have a 1926 photo that says you are not. Help me to believe your ever changing ways to incorporate what has been told to you that you refused to believe. I am so in awe of you Oscar oh' Grand Poobah.

I can show a 1926 photo of a modern style forehand in two seconds which is faster than Oscar can finish his "ooooooooooooooom" chant.

I win again.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 02:32 PM
The reason Oscar walked away is because I had evidence of someone using modern technique back in 1926 that I wanted him to comment on. He attested to something, I had my facts that said otherwise, I wanted him to explain the evidence I had. He didn't and then said I made him cry?

Wow, do you realize that I am an auditor by trade? Do you realize that my passion is to learn what the facts are, to hear both sides of the story and then stand my ground like a bear until you realize your fault? I will not give up and if I go down, you are going down with me. I will stand my ground even if it is not popular to do so.

I have no issue with someone wanting to learn Oscars methods. However, please don't come in here and imply or say that (among other things):

1. He has the only way to develop footwork in a player.

2. He is the Father of Modern Tennis.

3. That he includes everyone that doesn't teach his ways as being in the dark and clueless to teaching because we only teach from the USPTA's tennis teaching book.

I will eat you alive if you do. I will set you up to hang yourself. Withhold my evidence until the last minute and drop you like a bad habit. I could care less how many players used his methods. I am concerned about the other things. The lies about his Fatherhood, his invention of the modern game, his constant bashing of good coaches who dont use his ways, his refusal to accept hard evidence that contradicts his little claims, and his propoganda machine from clones like you.

Do you know why the USPTA's book isn't updated? HAs Oscar told you yet? And do you know why Oscar is mad at the USPTA???? Ask him, I am dying to hear King Cryon's answer.

film1
08-27-2009, 02:50 PM
Take a pen and write a small s on the top of you hand.
The constant reminder will help.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 02:59 PM
Last night, I was watching some of the 1981 US Open Mens Final, Borg vs McEnroe, on ESPN2 and both those guys had almost exactly this shot.

2009-1981 = 28 years (behind the times)

And this is more stupidity. Do you realize that players that want to learn tennis come in all shapes, sizes, age, athletic coordination, and goals?

Would you teach a Western grip forehand with a windshield wiper to your grandma? A little kid?

Without getting picky and stupid about things, did my "pat-the-dog" instruction make me "old" or "behind the times"? Please carry on, I have to hear this.

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 03:21 PM
Bill, I also asked you was anything wrong in the History of Tennis Instruction I posted. I even wanted and asked for your feedback because I respect you so much.

Come on man, please. You have something to sell and I am not buying it. That is why you want me to review your stuff.

Look, again, I dont mind someone learning Oscar's methods. Just dont come in here and think you are the only one that "gets it." There are a lot of coaches that have not even looked at the USPTA book because we have other ways to teach stuff. We teach modern grips, swings paths, footwork patterns and many of us have never cracked open the USPTA manual or Oscar's books.

Quit throwing everyone in one boat and telling people that if they dont teach Oscar's ways, they are teaching the USPTA old way. That is flat out not true. If you did your history lesson you would realize that the USPTA doesn't endorse any way for tennis instruction and leaves that up to the market to develop. Sure they provide a little book for those that have no clue.

However, any tennis player brought up in the late 80's and 90's would look at that book and know it is outdated. All USPTA professionals are not forced to teach USPTA methods or ways at all. Many forums and classes aren't even close to opening the USPTA way and say "okay guys, this is what the book says, why aren't you teaching it this way."

The book is out dated because the USPTA is not in the business of promoting a certain way to teach tennis. So it is unfair to say they are and all coaches with the USPTA are clueless because they only go by this manual! I am not. I know others that are not. So are we the minority or did you get your facts wrong?

As we know, Mozart was not famed or credited as the genius he was until he died. I suspect Oscar will not get such credit while alive given revolutions are never without spilled blood, even in tennis, and I guess it's hard for the old horses to change, It's all right here in the History of Tennis Instruction.

Hahahahaha, boy, you are taking some good drugs. Yup, ol Oscar is going have a Pyramid built in his name for fuguring out what others are clueless on. Yup, got to hand it to Oscar.

Notice the open hips the rackets down the spine of the back, the student almost kissing the elbow, exactly as Oscar teaches for beginners of all ages. The girl on far right has a western grip, something Lansdorp claims ruins american juniors.

Really? Well I dont subscribe to the Western grip either. I teach the SW grip. Am I old? Can you tell me what is drastically wrong about the SW grip?

Further, I have this, a photo from 1926. Is he kissing his elbow????

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Modern/modern5.jpg

Here is your picture and you do know a coach can get to this position in the followthrough from the steps prior to this right? I never focus on the finish and let the finish take care of itself from the chosen swing path. It is old teaching to do so.

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/spartaktinytotweb.jpg

Oscar has only invented a methodology, a blue print, the fastest proven way to play like the pros.

Fast "proven" way huh? This is where the BS begins like nobody but him has done so. Many coaches dont market their methods you know.

The only thing Oscar is all upset about is because the USPTA refused to endorse his way of teaching for the USPTA and said it was open and up to the coaches to teach what they should teach. Is that right or wrong? That is a different story, however, your little boss is all ****y about it because, afterall, he is the Father of Tennis.

More photos for your Father.This is like 1926!!!! Was our father here too?
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Modern/modern2.jpg

More for the Father of Tennis. Did he teach this guy too?

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Modern/modern1.jpg

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 03:58 PM
More stuff

http://jbbeh.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/2008_05_08_federer_02.jpg

http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/uploads/images/quickstartfh.jpg

So, Oscar teaches the wrap arounf the neck version of the forehand. I find that detrimental to teach the finish of the stroke over the contact and forward swing of the stroke. You can find my reason by doing a search.

The above pictures are displayed for comparison purposes. Obviously one is real life and the other is cartoonish if you will. Obviously a artist rendering of the real deal is going to be a bit hampered, however, can we get the idea from here?

Coaches are allowed to fill in the blanks and often coaches will teach a couple swing paths to get a certain finish. We have the wrap around the neck finish. The towards the shoulder finish and we have the towards the elbow finish which is usually from a strong WW swing pattern.

On Federers photo I am labelling across:

1. Top row: 1- 3

2.Bottom row: 4 - 6

3. The little guy in the drawing is 1 - 4.

STANCE ANALYSIS
The player in the drawing is using a neutral or forward stance. Federer is using an open stance. Both stances are used in today's tennis for the forehand including the semi-open stance.

Conclusion: Since both stances are used in today's tennis at all levels in different frequencies, this is not an issue. Some coaches want to have their students learn several different stances depending on the goals of the player and style of their game.

GRIP ANALYSIS
Rodger obviously uses a mild SW grip. Let's just say SW for simplicity purposes. The little guy in the photo, well, is probably in an Eastern grip. The Eastern grip for many coaches is outdated, however, some have found teaching this grip useful for their own methods and purposes with good success. The pro game of tennis is much different than at the recreational level. Therefore, the Eastern grip is a viable grip for today's club player for a variety of play. Players who participate in doubles may find this grip most beneficial for the normal serve and volley type play most doubles players should mostly use. Further, the Eastern grip and a modified swing path can hold its own against players of a different more Western grip.

Conclusion: Because the Eastern grip is still a viable grip amongst club level players, depending on the goals of the player this is still viable. Some coaches have moved on the the SW grip for teaching and others to the WEstern. Depending on the players goals, coaches should recommend a good grip for the players style of play. This is not an issue.

FOUR POINT SWING PATH ANALYSIS
We will use Rodger Federers 1st, 2nd, and 4th picture to compare to the little person in the drawing.

Because it is a drawing as compared to the real thing, benefit of the doubt that the drawer tried to resemble as close as possible what was trying to be communicated. The only photo that should be corrected in the photo from a technical perspective is the second photo of the drawing. In today's tennis most players have the racquet face parallel to the ground and not perpendicular. However, some beginners may find this easier to hit the ball and depending on their goals may want to stick with a more traditional swing path. For me it is a little "gateish" which could lead to flat swinging.

Conclusion: The Nike swoosh swing path is demonstrated here which is still a viable swing path. Most coaches and players have moved on to a hybrid swing path and/or a full windshield wiper swing path. However, given the Eastern grip, this swing path is technically correct for the grip used minus a few drawing specifics that could have made the example better such as being somewhat bent at the waist instead of more at the knees in the 2nd drawing. I am not going to be picky because I "get it". I will give these drawings the benefit of the doubt as not being exact. However, they do provide a basic Nike Swoosh swing path that can be used in today's tennis. Depending on how you look at tennis, this can be just right or dated. It really depends on the direction of the player, their goals, what type of player they are, their age, etc...

Overall opinion is although the drawings are quiet exact, they can be used to demonstrate general form. However, they are just drawings and they are not perfect by any means. A better way would have used a photo sequence as Rodger's above and showing sequences of varius grips, swing paths, and stances that are used in today's tennis.

Cindysphinx
08-27-2009, 06:58 PM
This is why Wegner is great for beginners. This is what we have been saying all along. This is what Wegner your guru didn't have the guts to answer. His teaching is for beginners. End of story, we agree.

Since the ball takes more than a second to go from one side of the court to the other, a beginner and their moon balls can wait to prepare later rather than earlier. Obviously.

Wegners propoganda takes a dump in the toilet when the ball speeds up at the 4.0 and above level. And please dont tell me the pros have all grown up solely using his methods. We already called Oscar "Father" Wegner on that one.

Uh oh. Does this mean that my answer was wrong?:confused:

Bungalo Bill
08-27-2009, 07:11 PM
Uh oh. Does this mean that my answer was wrong?:confused:

Cindy,

I dont know what your answer is but here is something I have repeated over and over again.

I have nothing against Wegners methods of teaching tennis. He has developed a way to teach tennis using a certain set of intruction or method. That is great! Many coaches dont have a method with some just "trying" things out without seeing its purpose to do so.

A good coach has a way to teach. A good coach can do what Wegner does, teach quickly without wasting someones time or money. And they can get results quickly. Many of these coaches do not use Wegners exact ways. However, they have similar ways and exercises that get to the same place.

There is no secret.

Now, the only thing I argue about is this bragging about Wegner as the guru to modern tennis and his relentless BS surrounding this. He simply markets himself more mostly at the expense of other good coaches whom he wants to group together into the old foggie group. If the nut would just back off on this, I might look at his lessons, until then I won't.

So, continue as you are...:) This is my fight.

teachestennis
08-27-2009, 09:39 PM
Hi Bill,

Nice surprises here from Bill and in my email as I just got home late as I taught tennis until 9:30 and I want to thank the four people who have emailed their support and asked me to keep posting and not leave because they want to hear a new viewpoint. Three of them loved the History of Tennis Article, one said it was terrific, another fascinating, and one wrote "keep it up...I learned a lot." The fourth said they are sorry Oscar is hated by you because a lot of the things I say make sense. I never made the claims you say I did against all coaches who don't teach MTM. I just said this is how we do it and it's a proven way which I have researched to be the best. You admit other great coaches don't have a written system. Well, if tennis is to grow, we need a repeatable system to stop the loss of millions of tennis players quitting the game. That's all I'm looking for and asking the USTA to provide. The Russians teach technique is everything and they all teach one techniques. Maybe if we did we might get the same results they do, going on 20 players in the top 100 and a constant rotation of five in the top ten. Venus and Serena weren't even USTA, USPTA, or PTR products. They didnt' even come up the traditional USTA tournaments. Richard just worked built two B-52 bombers in his backyard and wow, both of them took off perfectly and flew exactly as per their mission.

All I have to say is that if you had looked at www.tennisteacher.com and read it carefully, you would have seen that Oscar always pointed out that open stance forehands had been around and that Bill Tilden used one but that problem with tennis was that they did not know how to teach like they played because they were enamored of the turn, step, and hit method. So what you are saying makes no sense because Oscar in his definition of MTM on his site points out that the best players in time often played this way; but no one was teaching it. I am even trying to confirm and give credit to Peter Burwash for trying to get Eve Kraft to hold a forum on the efficacy of the open stance in the late 1970s, I am trying to be a historian and just state the facts.

I have not only these same pics that you do, but many more. Oscar has seen these pics way back in 2004 at least by my personal experience. I have one posted on my site in the History from 1895 if you are so concerned about making a point. Does that mean I win because my pic is older than your pic. I even point out that by 1925, their has probably been nothing invented new regarding tennis strokes. That proves to me you did not read my History. What am I selling in that article besides the facts. Those are free excerpts that a couple thousand people have looked at and the worst email or comment I've gotten is that too many run on sentences. It's very favorable to Bollettieri and I even defend him which is not easy to do given he's such an easy target like when he claimed to have invented System 5 and had to retract it after Tennis Canada's lawsuit and claims that it was stolen from them.

Truth withstands any attack, Bill. I will defend what I say and if I say something wrong or rude, I will apologize for it. I read everything on tennisone and tennisplayer so I know what is going on maybe more than you think I do. I even point out many great coaches from time in my History and none of them had MTM. I was born in St. Louis which had a group of coaches such as Bill Price, Dick Hudlin, Lloyd Brown, and others who produced a group of tennis pros that were the envy of any region including California and Florida. St. Louis was at one time the tennis capital of the USA if you counted number of pros per capita population.

And again, thanks for your support. At least a half dozen people have enjoyed my posts as stated on the forums and mentioned they are having success with some of my tips. Five people before all this started took me up on my offer to help them privately through emails. I will stay because Bill does not scare me and I believe others should have the option of seeing different teaching methods. My Todd Martin and Kelly Jones quotes are causing a lot of people to look at things differently because though I'm unknown and work behind the scenes, I think they are great coaches and I hope to send my best students to Kelly Jones someday. We are already starting to promote him as the best academy coach out there. Just an opinion based on my research and conversations with Kelly.

You can't shut down someone who is trying to debate honestly, Bill. There is no use even trying to answer some of those accusations, such as did he say all coaches teach a certain way. He only said that conventional teaching has got to go before we lose another ten million. The USPTA must have listened when they announced a five year phaseout and went to "load and explode." The problem is the grassroots, Bill. In St. Louis, I see Quickstart taught exactly per the 2009 manual and I dont' see results

Want to see an average 5 year old kid who has never touched a racket in his life pick up a racket for the first time and rally for ten balls within ten minutes with foam balls? The kid could barely hold the racket. Here is a video clip from an upcoming Mommy, Daddy, and Me Tennis DVD by Susan Nardi, a PTR clinician/tester and USPTA P1. She gets these results with all tiny tots, some sooner than later, but I learned a lot working with her in California for six months.

http://gallery.me.com/suznardi

Bungalo Bill
08-28-2009, 08:21 AM
Hi Bill,

Nice surprises here from Bill and in my email as I just got home late as I taught tennis until 9:30 and I want to thank the four people who have emailed their support and asked me to keep posting and not leave because they want to hear a new viewpoint.
http://gallery.me.com/suznardi

My gosh, are you saying that nobody gets emails except you? Do you know how many I get? Is this another one of your ploys to make you feel like you are doing something? Again, I dont care if you promote your instruction, however, if you do, be prepared to answer questions about your methods. In other words, dont run and hide like Oscar did.

Again, because you seem a bit dense, I am getting tired of you trashing other coaches to promote your ways. Just because the USPTA didn't adopt Oscars ways, doesn't mean that the USPTA was wrong or Oscar is right. It simply means they dont want to endorse one way of teaching tennis and leaves that up to the coaches.

Tell me, if you value Oscars teaching, would the USPTA prevent you from becoming certified in their program?

So, I am not trying to shut you down chump! Just trying to get your to stop bashing other coaches and the USPTA and being a flase witness for them.

I and many coaches know know that USA tennis teaching needs to improve. I already know US tennis instruction is behind the times.

However, it is not necessarily behind the times in technique and stroke development. What we are behind the times in is incorporating footwork training with stroke training.

This was evident when I as teaching for Vic Braden and a couple of Spanish coaches were touring and reviewing various facilities. I asked them what they thought. They said, "American tennis is behind the times in incorporating footwork and strokes, which is why foreginer are doing better in the sport. If America changes that, they will be super strong in tennis once again."

By the way, you mentioned that it is Oscar that teaches the "kiss the elbow." Did you talk about this in history? I think that is a terrible way to teach a stroke and it promotes more people to use shortened strokes than any other method.

However, giving you the benefit of the doubt, did Oscar teach these guys too? Or is he taking a claim on something that has been long part of tennis? Did Oscar teach these players?

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Modern/modern5.jpg

Keep going, I have more.

Wegner
08-28-2009, 08:21 PM
Hi, Bungalow Bill, I did not receive those pictures, but I totally concur with you now that I see them. There were many players in the early 1900's that bent the arm, and many of them were top players. Tilden did something similar in most instances, as did Jack Kramer, Rod Laver, Manolo Santana, John Newcome, and many others. Today's modern forehand, with such extreme windshield wiper, ends up a bit lower but they still hit across the body. I did not invent it. I started teaching it because I found it the easiest way to produce good players.
I see you have many followers on all your threads, here and in TennisW. I wish I had more time to get into the fray. I commend your enterprising and articulate manner, Bungalow Bill, which really helps make tennis more popular. In my case, because I don't have the time, I like to get people to tennisteacher.com, my website, and have them see the few free samples of the teaching techniques I propose. Then to send me their comments or questions, and I answer them daily as much as possible. Obviously, I did not invent the game. I just proposed copying the best strokes of all time, the Basics which the top players have in common, and let students develop their own style. Sometimes by themselves, sometimes with a parent, sometimes with a coach.
My apologies for those who my matter of fact approach offends. I studied Engineering prior to my days on the tour, and that is the way engineers operate. Either a bridge is soundly designed, or you know it could come down.
In my website I have free teachings on the modern forehand, backhand, volleys, serve, movement, etc., all concise and easy to apply. I believe the future of tennis is in simplifying and making the game more accessible and easier, for kids, for beginners, for everyone, including coaching top pros.
Some people like debate. I like to let results speak for themselves. This way we are more practical and we help more people.
Thank you, Bungalow Bill, for your enthusiasm and beign such a prolific writer and debater. It helps grow the game.

firstblud
08-28-2009, 08:28 PM
The father of modern tennis graces us with his presence!

rxs10is
08-29-2009, 09:33 AM
My first post here, and in a thread with Oscar Wegner participating! This is fantastic!

Oscar, I have been an avid follower of your teachings, I have read your books and studied the tapes you made with Brad Holbrook. It has improved my game greatly, and increased my appreciation of this great game. Thank you very much for your dedication!

Ray

Bungalo Bill
08-29-2009, 12:42 PM
Hi, Bungalow Bill, I did not receive those pictures, but I totally concur with you now that I see them. There were many players in the early 1900's that bent the arm, and many of them were top players. Tilden did something similar in most instances, as did Jack Kramer, Rod Laver, Manolo Santana, John Newcome, and many others. Today's modern forehand, with such extreme windshield wiper, ends up a bit lower but they still hit across the body. I did not invent it. I started teaching it because I found it the easiest way to produce good players.

Yes, you are right, you didn't invent it. However, what is implied from your website can be taken as if you did because you also don't refute it. Whether the "designation" of the Father of Modern Tennis was given to you or you hinted about it to someone and it caught on innocently or on purpose, to continue to accept it, promote it, and use it is a bit arrogant amongst the company you keep wouldn't you think?

The "Father of Modern Tennis" can also imply you are the founder of it. When you and I (and many others) both know you weren't.

I see you have many followers on all your threads, here and in TennisW. I wish I had more time to get into the fray. I commend your enterprising and articulate manner, Bungalow Bill, which really helps make tennis more popular. In my case, because I don't have the time, I like to get people to tennisteacher.com, my website, and have them see the few free samples of the teaching techniques I propose. Then to send me their comments or questions, and I answer them daily as much as possible. Obviously, I did not invent the game. I just proposed copying the best strokes of all time, the Basics which the top players have in common, and let students develop their own style.You are exactly right. What you have developed is a way to teach tennis whether accepted or not. You analyzed and recognized the game of tennis and the strokes employed by top professionals were changing. You were smart enough to develop instruction so that it could be deployed consistently.

I do not have a problem with your methods or teaching of tennis. At times, I have encouraged people to review your tennis material to see if it makes sense to them.

What I have a hard time with is for a person that has risen to the top of the tennis world and has developed a system of teaching tennis why do you come across as a person that puts down other coaches? Organizations?, and those that painstakenly went before you doing the best they could?

You would go a lot further if you embrace them. Honor them. Respect them. Listen to them. You may not agree just like I don't agree with some of your insights, however, you would gain favor so they would listen to you.

Take for instance the USPTA manual that is often mentioned by your followers. Do you know that I don't know one coach that uses that manual? However, it is constantly referred to or implied as the "bible" for the USPTA in teaching a stroke by them. That is what they point to when they are comparing your program to "conventional" tennis teaching. I hav never met a coach that teaches out of that manual. In fact, what I have heard is many coaches have consistently asked the USPTA to update it. Since the USPTA has limited resources, many of the coaches have adopted modern game teaching on thier own and with other resources much like you did. Some research, study, analyzing, putting together a lesson plan or system, and off they go.

Now, my circle may be considerably small compared to yours. However, I do believe that my circle can be projected with reasonable accuracy that the coaches that teach the modern game (in various grades of quality) are of the many and not the few. In other words. I believe my sample reasonably and accurately reflects the population where I can provide an opinion. Now, I could be totally wrong in my projection because there is sampling risk that my sample didn't represent the population. Or maybe I was tainted by a certain part of the United States and it does not represent the population. For that, I am willing to accept my error and readjust my analysis.

When you point to a manual that is rarely used, and are not careful in what you say, you can easily come across as someone who has labeled (whether you did or not) the majority of coaches (including myself) as old and outdated and worse, the reason why tennis is unpopular, unsuccessful, and why the United States of America is suffering. That is a heavy dose to take especially where I can show you that you are wrong to assume that or imply that.

Do we have areas that need to improve? Absolutely. Do we have coaches that need to be trained in human learning theory, instructional design, communication, and to learn new methods to teach the game of tennis? Absolutely. That is why I am here and hopefully I am providing an easy way to learn the modern game of tennis. However, I am not restricted to one method or philosophy. I meet the student half-way, kick them in the rump to get going, and work with them to get their game to where it should be or they want it to be.

I can not teach on the courts anymore. For health reasons (some skin cancer, back issues, knee issues), I have had to bow out of court teaching as a living except with a few friends that I occasionally take out and train. So, in order to be involved in tennis, I devote myself to writing about it because communication is my strength whether in writing or verbally. This may not be the mest medium to teach tennis, but it works for me and by the way it sounds, others as well.

So, from that perspective, I feel I can say this directly to you:

I am ticked-off that you have allowed your people to fantail a disturbing misguided and misinterpreted message that coaches that don't teach the modern game your way are antiquated, old, a detriment to the sport, holding the US tennis back, the reason US Tennis has failed, and on and on. I will knock the Be-Jesus out of anyone of your people that come in here and flaunt their stuff as if they are in the know about things.

I hold you responsible for allowing these messages to perpetuate. There are a lot of excellent coaches that teach the modern game that don't use your techniques or they use a portion of them. I use part of your technique but not all of them. And just because a coach doesn't use your methods or uses a part of it does not mean they can't teach tennis in an easier way, or are "conventional", and outdated.

From my perspective you have displayed an attitude of arrogance and for a person with your intelligence, your level of play, your talent, and your love for the sport of tennis I am embarrassed for you.

I will not tolerate anyone (even you) to come in here and promote your way as the only way to learn modern tennis because I know it isn't. Or your way is the only way that has cornered the market in tennis instruction and everyone else just doesn't get it because they are still reading out of the USPTA manual.

My apologies for those who my matter of fact approach offends. I studied Engineering prior to my days on the tour, and that is the way engineers operate. Either a bridge is soundly designed, or you know it could come down.Nobody in their right mind would deny that tennis is a fragmented sport from a teaching perspective. It needs to come together better. I lay blame to the current establishments that I believe have a weak business model and are stuck. However, to be fair, partially this is do to the nature of the game itself, the characters that play tennis, our history, etc....

I also work with engineers and many of them don't frame their words with empathy and a dose of humility to couch their words. Many don't understand that their message came across negatively and detrimental to their intent.

If your true goal is to promote a better way of teaching and better way of playing tennis, then understand this, you will go much farther if you couch your words with empathy, listen to others who see the game differently, have an ounce of humility, honor/respect those that came before you working with limited and poor resources, and respect those that are on those courts working hard to further the game with or without your methods. When you attack an establishment, you attack all the people who are members or were members of that establishment and that my friend will bring about debate, or worse, war.

Wegner
08-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Bungalow Bill, first of all, I want to thank you for responding in such a civilized manner. Some of my detractors resort to name calling, without being reasonable or knowing the real facts, and that is why I usually don't answer them.
You are absolutely right in many instances on your comments, and I completely recognize that the teaching profession has experienced a big turn in the last decade. Maybe I was a big influence, with my "forceful" manners, as you say, to bring attention to the fact that tennis teaching was not optimum in the USA, or maybe not. I think my overseas actions forced the hand.
Being so observant, you must have noticed that the USA was reticent to change their teaching techniques. Now they are doing so well, I commend especially the USPTA, and that encouraged me to rejoin them as a member. But, as none of those institutions have given me a word of encouragement nor any credit, I "arrogantly" speak for myself and my accomplishments. You are right, I should have more humility, more understanding of the process. But it is my firm belief that if I had not initiated the war with the USPTA in 1971 and gone to Spain to show them I was right when they laughed at me, then to South America (Brazil) in 1982 when they laughed at me again, then wrote a marking book in 1989 that ended up with the Russian Tennis Federation and the Moscow coaches, then nobody might have noticed that there were some problems in the field of teaching tennis in the USA. The most embarrasing moment was in 2004 when the then President of the USTA, appearing for the US Open trophy ceremonies not on his best behavior, and pointed to the fact that there were 4 Russian women semifinalists and 5 in the top ten.
The fact that fundamental elements of my teaching system have been gradually adopted by coaching institutions, including popular "modern" coaches and websites, is proof of the viability of my methodology. The "new" modern techniques that have emerged in recent years were considered "new" when I initiated them in 1968 as well.
I didn't "father" modern tennis. I simply distilled the best technical threads from the best players of all time into a single unified and simplified teaching methodology that produces optimal results.
If someone else accuses me of fathering "modern tennis", I humbly take responsibility for my actions and will be willing to take a paternity test.
You can't say now that I am avoiding speaking my mind in this Forum.
I hope, again, that my openness doesn't tick you off.
Best wishes and fast recovery from your health problems, Oscar

rxs10is
08-30-2009, 06:46 AM
I didn't "father" modern tennis. I simply distilled the best technical threads from the best players of all time into a single unified and simplified teaching methodology that produces optimal results.
If someone else accuses me of fathering "modern tennis", I humbly take responsibility for my actions and will be willing to take a paternity test.
You can't say now that I am avoiding speaking my mind in this Forum.
I hope, again, that my openness doesn't tick you off.


Ha ha! Hats off to you Oscar, you are one classy person for responding with kindness and humor to these vicious attacks. But then, it looks like you've been doing it from 1968, long before I was born!

Bungalo Bill
09-02-2009, 10:49 AM
...I completely recognize that the teaching profession has experienced a big turn in the last decade. Maybe I was a big influence, with my "forceful" manners, as you say, to bring attention to the fact that tennis teaching was not optimum in the USA, or maybe not. I think my overseas actions forced the hand.

I am in 100% agreement with you. Since I can't teach on court, I voice my knowledge and understanding of the sport of tennis through here. Tennis teaching in the USA is a fragmented industry. It is a hodge-podge of many different "cowboys" in the wild frontier of teaching tennis. Perhaps the USPTA chose the wrong business model and didn't envision what the teaching profession would look like considering how coaches get courts, their business model, and the need for information as the sport changed to name a few.

In the past, as you know, different tracks spurred on different developments of the sport.

1. We had the ground game. This is where I showed you the 1926 pics of forehands reasonably immitating the groundstrokes today. Obviously, we are talking about 83 years ago? So, it isn't going to be exact. And back then, many of the things in tennis was experimental also.

2. Then came the S & V game. This had players use grips and swings that complimented that style of game. Much of which is called "classic tennis" or maybe your term "conventional tennis". The pinnacle of success was Edberg and Sampras, however as racquet technology changed the pendulim swung back to the ground game.

3. Now, we have hints of the game swinging more towards an "all-court" game or a game with varying degrees of a forward court game vs. a back court game. Some even say S&V is still a viable style to use at the lower club levels where strokes and play isn't as consistent.

I have also moved away from traditional stances and grip instruction. I start players in the SW and open stance. I work on the other stances as necessary because I teach an all-court game. Movement is taught and managed from day one and is phased in from basic to intermediate to advanced footwork as the student progresses.

Being so observant, you must have noticed that the USA was reticent to change their teaching techniques. Now they are doing so well, I commend especially the USPTA, and that encouraged me to rejoin them as a member.

Well that is good to hear that you rejoined them. Tells me all that your main goal is to improve tennis instruction and the sport of tennis as a whole.

But, as none of those institutions have given me a word of encouragement nor any credit, I "arrogantly" speak for myself and my accomplishments. You are right, I should have more humility, more understanding of the process. But it is my firm belief that if I had not initiated the war with the USPTA in 1971 and gone to Spain to show them I was right when they laughed at me, then to South America (Brazil) in 1982 when they laughed at me again, then wrote a marking book in 1989 that ended up with the Russian Tennis Federation and the Moscow coaches, then nobody might have noticed that there were some problems in the field of teaching tennis in the USA.

Yes, you are right. They should have listened. Oscar, I appreciate you sharing your past with the teaching organizations. You should be commened for your persistence in getting your instruction and insight to the game of tennis out to the public.

It sounds like some personal agendas got in the way with your vision. You were a change agent (and rightly so) and nobody likes change. I have learned in my auditing career that when the Big Cheese laughs (and others join in for political reasons) at your recommendations or takes an aggressive posture, you usually hit the nail on the head. Nobody likes to feel they got sand kicked in their face whether percieved or actually said.

However, regardless if they accept your recommendation or not, that is their issue and their risk to assume. For you to stand by your recommendations for many years and seek those that would listen is something I personally commend you for because you believed in it so much. That is what I do. In this day and age, many people usually don't stand by and defend their position or beliefs.

The most embarrasing moment was in 2004 when the then President of the USTA, appearing for the US Open trophy ceremonies not on his best behavior, and pointed to the fact that there were 4 Russian women semifinalists and 5 in the top ten.

The fact that fundamental elements of my teaching system have been gradually adopted by coaching institutions, including popular "modern" coaches and websites, is proof of the viability of my methodology. The "new" modern techniques that have emerged in recent years were considered "new" when I initiated them in 1968 as well.

I didn't "father" modern tennis. I simply distilled the best technical threads from the best players of all time into a single unified and simplified teaching methodology that produces optimal results.

If someone else accuses me of fathering "modern tennis", I humbly take responsibility for my actions and will be willing to take a paternity test.
You can't say now that I am avoiding speaking my mind in this Forum.
I hope, again, that my openness doesn't tick you off.
Best wishes and fast recovery from your health problems, Oscar

Hahaha, well a paternity test is not necessary. So no peeing in a cup (or whatever they do) :) to prove it is your kid.

You brought a system of teaching tennis together in a world full of hodge-podge tennis facts and myths. You ketp the facts, created instruction for the current game and brought it to the masses.

The game was changing, certain instructors were aging, and tennis needed a new shot in the arm concerning instruction. The game of tennis was swinging back to a baseline game due to technology, the need for younger and younger players among other things. The critical masses were in need of a safe way to learn the current game that didn't exist. The perfect storm for you.

I appreciate you willingly and humbly telling all of us this. I especially appreciate knowing what you went through. It shows me that you are willing to be transparent and open about your insights and feelings of the game. However, the most important thing I appreciate is you didn't have to do this. You took the time to explain what you faced (adversity) and possibly an opponent (me).

It shows me that you truly believe in what you have. You set aside your accomplishments in the game and I could tell you spoke from the heart. Thanks Oscar for taking the time and explaining your side, I appreciate that.

Bungalo Bill
09-02-2009, 10:53 AM
Ha ha! Hats off to you Oscar, you are one classy person for responding with kindness and humor to these vicious attacks. But then, it looks like you've been doing it from 1968, long before I was born!

Geeez, dude, grow a set would ya? These are bulletin boards and conversations can go from a heated debate to mutual understanding to off-beat conversations.

Everyone has a position. Everyone sees it differently. What you mistake as "vicious attacks" is called passion whether misdirected or not. Oscar was kind enough to offer his side of the story. I can see it from his side. I am not ignorant enough to ignore honesty, however, you being clueless is another story.

My gosh, if people can't challenge each other with passion on these boards then why don't you go start a new bulletin board called "FOR ALL THOSE TENNIS PLAYERS THAT DON'T WANT TO GROW A SET." What a putz.