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Eph
07-26-2009, 09:05 AM
How's my serve looking? I really don't know.. I don't think I'm using my arm as much for power. It's more accurate, but when I watch the videos, the motion looks horrible.

I guess my end goal is to play on the intramural team at my university (D1 school) next year. I'd appreciate your commentary on how I can get to that, too.

Thanks!

http://vimeo.com/5769736 - side view
http://vimeo.com/5769746 - front view


To compare to June 8th: http://vimeo.com/5067013

zapvor
07-26-2009, 09:26 AM
not bad. looks like you have the foundation mostly down. lots of little things to be tweaked, so let me just say this. when you bring your tossing arm up, do it more slowly, deliberately. my 2 cents

Eph
07-26-2009, 09:29 AM
Thanks.

I realise I'm not following through. What do I do to correct this (sans attaching a weight to my serving arm).

Why do I want to bring my tossing arm up slower? I'm not doubting you - just wondering why?

Have things improved since June 8th? I personally thought after watching the video that my serve was more horrible than before...

zapvor
07-26-2009, 09:38 AM
i didint watch june8th. one thing i noticed was hitches. you have a very good starting motion, where you have ball against racket. but instead of going smooth, you kind of do a hitch as you start the motion. so among other things, i just picked out one element-bring your arm up slower so you are not tossing as much as placing the ball, then you can watch te ball, then swing to it. yoru racket arm has hitches too, but one thing at a time

zapvor
07-26-2009, 09:39 AM
oh if you saw my youtube serves, you will see i suck just as bad, so this is not exactly pro advice lol

StuckInMalibu
07-26-2009, 10:17 AM
I guess my end goal is to play on the intramural team at my university...I'd appreciate your commentary on how I can get to that, too.


I thought you only have to sign up to play intramural tennis? That's how I got in at my university. I was surprised about the skill level of the players tho. Many were former varsity players, but some were exceptionally good. A few had incredibly powerful serves and forehands. I would sign up now and get some tennis partners.

On your serve, you might want to keep the tossing arm up a bit longer. You can improve your racquet drop. The drop should happen by itself when you swing with a loose arm. If you can stand in front of a mirror, or record yourself again, try to make your arm like a wet noodle. When you swing up on a serve, you should be able to see the racquet drop straight down without a conscious effort at dropping it. This should increase racquet-head speed. Of course, you can make any adjustments after you get the idea.

Another trick is to hold the racquet at the bottom of the handle without your pinky touching. You can't muscle the serve that way; instead you'll rely on racquet-head speed.

Eph
07-26-2009, 10:22 AM
>>Another trick is to hold the racquet at the bottom of the handle without your pinky touching. You can't muscle the serve that way; instead you'll rely on racquet-head speed.<<

I already do this! :)

Are there any other recommendations you can give me to get out some of my hitches, and to follow through?

Finally, do you see a positive difference from when I last videod myself playing?

StuckInMalibu
07-26-2009, 11:09 AM
>>Another trick is to hold the racquet at the bottom of the handle without your pinky touching. You can't muscle the serve that way; instead you'll rely on racquet-head speed.<<

I already do this! :)

Are there any other recommendations you can give me to get out some of my hitches, and to follow through?

Finally, do you see a positive difference from when I last videod myself playing?

I honestly can't tell the difference between the videos. But don't let me discourage you.

Right now you do not have much movement of the racquet. It's almost like casting a fishing rod.

I think instant replay of any changes you make will guide you. If you have a large room with a mirror, or your camera is easily accessible, just try any trick that you think will help.

One trick is to simply start at the trophy pose. Your tossing arm is pointed straight up, and your racquet is up and behind you. Try to visualize the racquet drop and swing away. Look at yourself in the mirror or camera after a few swings to see if you achieved the racquet drop. I thought of all sorts of analogies until the wet noodle stuck in my mind. The instant feedack from watching myself in the mirror helped tremendously.

You can try throwing something before you serve. Try to throw a tennis ball a few times and see if you can land the ball in the service box. A serve is essentially a throwing motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqj1F-DCskM&feature=related

I think Sampras is a good example. He does nothing special to achieve the racquet drop. He just lets his arm go as he swings. I bet he doesn't have any tension in his arm or thinks about hitting the ball hard.

volusiano
07-26-2009, 01:02 PM
Eph, like the other posters said, the first obvious improvement you can do is on the toss. Right now you're "throwing" the ball up. This leads to a very inconsistent toss because it's harder to place the ball where you want up in the air. It's obvious to see in the video that you "throw" it because you swing your tossing arm backward to gain momentum for the "throw" and your ball goes up pretty high. Another ugly side effect of trying to do this is you stick your belly forward and swing your racket backward to counterbalance your throwing arm swinging back. This does not help promote you to be in the trophy position that you should be in following your toss.

What you need to do is just "lift" the ball up instead. Don't swing your tossing arm backward anymore. Just start "lifting" your arm up from where you start (keep elbow locked, and palm faced upward, but holding the ball with your fingers and not on your palm), then release the ball from your fingers at the highest point. Some signs of a good toss is your ball won't fly up so high and it shouldn't be spinning much at all and there should be no trajectory. The ball should just be going straight up and fall straight down and not be so high that you have to wait for it to go down low enough time your hit.

The next key thing to work on after fixing your toss is to learn to be in the trophy position next. This means your tossing arm points straight up, your knees are bent, your racket is ready in for take back, your left shoulder is above your right shoulder.

For a guy with your physique, I would recommend you try out the abbreviated racket take back instead of the loopy take back you have right now. That means to raise your racket back into the back scratch position directly instead of dropping it back and low and loop it around to the back scratch position. This helps minimize your tendency to stick out your belly forward on the serve (which is undesirable), and also allows you more time to be ready to strike the ball sooner because your ball toss is not so high now like before.

pvaudio
07-26-2009, 02:31 PM
That video is one of the most awkward service motions second only to my own from a year ago. You really need to keep videoing your serving, because you're wasting enough energy to power a damn city. The problem is that your serve is not a cohesive and fluid movement, rather, it's individual parts of a service motion executed one after the other. Instead of having your body move smoothly from one into the other, you go from the toss, jerk to the backscratch, jerk to the trophy then somehow get to the followthrough. I would recommend a completely new motion since it looks to me as though there's too much wrong to fix it, although you have ENORMOUS potential. That's really what's griping me, is that you could have a monster on your hands, but it would take too much to work that into what you're already doing. Look at videos of great servers: sampras, phillipousis, djokovic. They all do relatively the same thing, with only minor personal variations. Servers like Karlovic, Roddick and Goran are good at what THEY do, but it's too unique to copy properly. I made a post in another serving thread about the various parts to the serve, I'll see if I can't find it and send it to you (note that I am NOT a coach, but that my serve is my best stroke because I used to be rather large and needed to rely on my serve to set up easy points since I couldn't move quickly).

Eph
07-26-2009, 02:35 PM
Thanks.

I know it's extremely jerky and I want to make it more fluid, but I'm not sure where to begin.

I've watched millions of videos of Sampras and I try to model my game after his.

I'm going to work on the toss, but I don't see what the difference is between what volusiano suggested and what I am doing? Perhaps you could tell me...

Any other help/suggestions?

Eph
07-26-2009, 02:37 PM
I just watched the video again. Maybe you can help explain to me how to get from the toss to the trophy pose to start?

pvaudio
07-26-2009, 02:43 PM
I just watched the video again. Maybe you can help explain to me how to get from the toss to the trophy pose to start?
I need to string a few racquets, but I'll be happy to do whatever I can tonight. I'm not kidding when I'm telling you that you could have HUGE serve. :)

Eph
07-26-2009, 02:47 PM
Thanks! I'll be around then.

That would be nice (to have a huge serve). I'm going to be walking on an extremely competitive intramural team so any advantage I can have would be wonderful.

Do you think I could produce a fluid service motion in the next month? I've been playing tennis for ca one year.

volusiano
07-26-2009, 05:38 PM
Thanks.
I'm going to work on the toss, but I don't see what the difference is between what volusiano suggested and what I am doing? Perhaps you could tell me...

Any other help/suggestions?

Eph, watch your video closely at the beginning of each toss. Don't you see your left throwing arm swinging back a little before the toss? Don't do that. Just start raising your tossing arm up directly from your pose. Don't swing it back like that and try to toss too hard.

Next, do you see yourself arching from front chest and belly up a little as you tilt your head back and open up your racket and loop it back low? You're doing that because you're trying to lean back to toss that ball up too hard. This shifts your weight backward in the wrong place and throws you off balance. Fix that toss first and maybe this will go away.

Those are your 2 biggest downfalls you need to fix first before even thinking about the next steps. Maybe post a new video after you fix these 2 things and go from there.

Eph
07-26-2009, 06:21 PM
Yeah, I see that in my toss! Nobody has mentioned that to me before. I'll work on that tomorrow. Can I post a video then and get a critique?

I notice what you mean in my chest/belly twitch, too. What am I suppose to do here? Nothing. Just stay stationary and start moving into the trophy pose? How do I make the correct trophy pose instead of what I'm doing? (Yes, I've watched the videos on fuzzy yellow balls)

volusiano
07-26-2009, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I see that in my toss! Nobody has mentioned that to me before. I'll work on that tomorrow. Can I post a video then and get a critique?

I notice what you mean in my chest/belly twitch, too. What am I suppose to do here? Nothing. Just stay stationary and start moving into the trophy pose? How do I make the correct trophy pose instead of what I'm doing? (Yes, I've watched the videos on fuzzy yellow balls)

Hey Eph, glad to see that you notice it now. You know, it's easy to watch a video and point out what you see wrong, but it's an entirely different thing to start to try to coach people online on what they're supposed to do correctly next. That's such an interactive thing that's probably best left to live coaching. I think even people on this board who are qualified coaches would probably recommend that you get live coaching instead.

pvaudio
07-26-2009, 07:21 PM
Okay, where to begin? I guess let's just go through the different parts of the motion in order and what to do to improve them:

1. The toss. There is no other word for it, your toss is atrocious. I'm not going to be kind and say it's "not bad" or it just "needs work", because that's not the case. It's bad, and I only am that blunt because it's holding you back from having a beastly motion. Go out onto the court with 2-3 balls (really only need one, but if one gets away from you, you don't have to stop). You want to focus on placing that ball in the air where you want it, not tossing so you can hit it. That's a huge part of having a good serve: having a consistent toss. Now, take two racquets out of your bag, or take your own and borrow one from someone else. If no one else has one, go to the store and get a plastic grocery bag. Basically anything with an area of about 100sq in will do. Your ideal tossing height should be 1 racquet head above your maximum extension. What that means is to take your racquet, extend all the way up into the air, and then visualizing tossing the ball one racquet head higher than that. This allows you to have time to load your legs which I'll get to later. Any lower, and you don't get full extension and lose power and accuracy. Any higher and your toss will be all over the place AND by the time the ball gets back into your strike range, it will be traveling a lot faster thanks to gravity.

Put one of the racquets on the ground, or put the bag or borrowed frame on the ground. You want to put it about 18-20" in front of you, just in line with your ear or a little bit to the right. If you put it to the left, you'll be falling to the left at impact and you'll end up losing power and accuracy. Further to the right and you'll end up torquing your shoulder trying to get it into the deuce box. Stand on the baseline and practice just tossing the ball in the air and having it land on the strings of the frame or on the bag. Do this for at LEAST 50 tosses or until your deltoid is screaming in agony, then do it for 20 more. I can't stress enough how vital the toss is to the serve. Once you can hit that bag/frame at least 3 times in a row, move on to my 2nd suggestion. I'll make the next few into a single post, but my netbook is f'ing up and I don't want to lose this. :)

Eph
07-26-2009, 07:33 PM
Thanks! Will work on this drill tomorrow.

StuckInMalibu
07-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Here are some videos for your consideration.

Freeze your serve (side view) at 19 sec. Compare that to what fuzzyyellowballs.com shows about the racquet drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t0S1btK2Ag

Your racquet arm is straight when you swing. If it was loose, your arm would be bent, your elbow pointing up, and the racquet head pointing straight down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woH8uZlDjUg&feature=related
(How to do the racquet drop)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwp5cCo2vgs&feature=related
(skip to two minutes for drills)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxvNcftCR7E&feature=channel_page
(drill for tossing)

I'm glad to hear your intramural program is competitive.

pvaudio
07-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Okay, onto part two.

2. The introduction. I am not going to spend too much on this part of the serve as it is the part that you need to make your own. This actually comes before the toss, but the toss is the most critical and independent component, so I consider this the first part of the actual motion. Here you're doing whatever it is that you want. I notice that you want to bounce the ball with your hand a few times. That's fine. I also notice that you lean forward into the court while doing it. That's fine too. What I also want you to do is to do it the SAME way every time. With the exception of a few servers, most notably Jokea***** and Rafa, all servers have a routine that never deviates. It only deviates when something unexpected happens: a let, down a match point, after being ****ed at the umpire, etc.

If you want to bounce the ball a few times, do it the same number of times. I saw you variate between 2, 3 and 4. Pick one. Chances are that once you begin to learn different types of serves, you'll do something slightly different for each serve type which after a few games will be easy to notice. Keep it the same every time. Finally, at the end of your introduction, end with your weight balanced either neutrally, or on your rear foot. I'll explain why in the next part.

3. The load. Here is where you're preparing to generate some serious pace. The reason why you want your weight to either be neutral or rear biased is so that you can get as much out of the load as possible. If your weight is forward, you're already gravity's ***** and can't use it to your advantage. I would say to practice this part separately with the next part too just to see if the mechanics are in order. Begin by after releasing the ball for the toss, keeping the tossing arm as straight as possible. You want to be facing the deuce alley since you're right handed; this is important to get as much power as possible. Reach up for the sky if you can. While reaching, begin to bend your knees, with your rear leg holding more of the weight than the front. Again, it's either neutral or rear, not forward. At your lowest point of the knee bend, you'll end up in your "trophy pose". Your rear shoulder should be below the level of your front shoulder, thus giving you a textbook looking serve motion. Focus on making this transition SUPER smooth. Tossing arm up, bend, trophy pose. When done as one motion, you won't even feel it happening. Onto the next part.

4. The explosion. Here's where you are actually generating the pace. Once you're in your trophy stance from the previous part, it's time to unload. The key to this part is to NOT jump. Jumping does jack **** for you. Servers come off the ground during their motions because they have generated so much potential energy from the knee bend that it's the only solution to regain equilibrium. If you compress a spring while it's sitting on the counter and release it, it won't just go back to where it was before you touched it, it'll shoot off the counter. Same concept.

Try to bring your torso up to the ball, and your legs will follow. Don't use your legs to jump to the ball, if the legs are bent, physics will take care of everything else. Focus on getting your torso up to that ball so that it's in your strike range. While you are bringing your torso up, you'll naturally enter the backscratch position. Again, like the trophy pose, this isn't something you think about: it just happens. Practice loading and exploding in succession. If done properly, you should end up coming off the ground a few inches and being in front of where you started by about a foot or more. You're going to end up landing on your left foot BUT, you will be facing forward and not to the left. In your videos, you sometimes ended up facing the next court! Bad balance my friend. Next section.

5. Contact. The explosion and this are going to end up happening at the same time, but since there are specific mechanics to this part, I'll try and clear things up by separating them. At the end of the explosion, you should be in a straight line being propelled up AND into the court. You should still be facing whatever side of the court your handedness is i.e. right handed players will be facing the deuce alley, leftys, the ad alley. Since you're a righty, you'll be facing to the right while exploding.

Now, you consciously have to do this unlike many parts of the serve (when first starting), you're going to want to whip your right shoulder forward while pronating through the ball. Note that I said your right shoulder forward, not the right forward AND the left backwards. Twisting on an axis doesn't help you. You need to transfer your weight forward while swinging for two reasons: saving your shoulder from just arming through the ball, generating serious momentum and racquet head speed. Bringing y our right shoulder forward quickly so that you'll end up facing the net at contact adds a good bit of pace to your stroke. After contacting, you'll end up falling onto your left foot and be facing wherever you served. Try do do all these motions without actually hitting the ball first, then bring the ball into it.

That's about it. If you want me to clear up anything, or if anyone disagrees with me on any and everything, please say so since this is merely my opinion and is only there to help a fellow tennis player. Remember, smoothness=power, consistency=accuracy. A smooth, consistent motion will yield you both. Happy serving. :)

JoshDragon
07-27-2009, 09:43 AM
Thanks.

I know it's extremely jerky and I want to make it more fluid, but I'm not sure where to begin.

I've watched millions of videos of Sampras and I try to model my game after his.

I'm going to work on the toss, but I don't see what the difference is between what volusiano suggested and what I am doing? Perhaps you could tell me...

Any other help/suggestions?

Try to accelerate through your service motion, so that you snap through the ball when you make contact.

The biggest thing you'll need to work on is adding consistency to your toss.

Eph
07-27-2009, 04:46 PM
I think I at least worked out the problem with my toss which helped me get a better trophy pose. We'll see tonight after some videos.

Thanks!

Eph
07-27-2009, 08:00 PM
Well, I think the twitch is gone. I'm not moving my arm slow enough though, I notice. Also, I can't place it accurately. I *do* think I'm getting the trophy pose...

What do you think?

http://vimeo.com/5794861

JoshDragon
07-27-2009, 08:12 PM
I think you still need to practice a little bit more.

Serving takes a lot of practice to get the hang of. It took me about 10 months to really master the flat serve with a continental grip.

Also, try to make contact with the ball sooner and you can toss the ball higher if you need to. Tossing the ball higher will give you a greater margin of error when serving.

volusiano
07-28-2009, 02:25 AM
Eph, I saw that you don't swing back your tossing arm anymore, which is good. But you're still "throwing" the ball too high, that's why you had to abort several tosses in the beginning of your video. You only want to "lift" your ball up with your arm and just release it by opening up your fingers, but you don't want to "throw" it. If you "throw" it, your ball will go too high and the higher it goes the less chance it'll come down at the perfect spot where you want.

I totally disagree with some other poster's statement that the higher ball toss gives more margin for error. This doesn't make any sense. Try throwing the ball up 10x higher than you normally would and see if you can expect it to land in the same spot every time. So you only want to "lift" the ball up just high enough but not any higher, because 1) it'll land more precisely where you want and 2) you don't have to mess up your timing waiting for it to come down to the perfect height.

Also try to toss the ball more into the court and not above your head. This will help you jump into the ball for more pace and better placement.

You're not in the proper trophy position yet because: 1) your knee bend is not low enough, 2) Your right arm is not already folded in with the hand at your head level and the racket head above your head, 3) your right shoulder is not sufficiently lower than your left shoulder (because of 1 and 2).

I really don't like how you loop your racket back low and open up your racket face like that at the start of your toss. This is bad because 1) you're doing this to have a counterweight to help you "throw" the ball up (an undesirable thing), and 2) as a result, your right arm is not taken back, ready in the trophy position (with racket above your head) in time when needed. You should really consider changing to an abbreviated racket takeback to fix this issue.

NotAtTheNet
07-28-2009, 03:56 AM
2) Your right arm is not already folded in with the hand at your head level and the racket head above your head, 3) your right shoulder is not sufficiently lower than your left shoulder (because of 1 and 2).

I really don't like how you loop your racket back low and open up your racket face like that at the start of your toss. This is bad because 1) you're doing this to have a counterweight to help you "throw" the ball up (an undesirable thing), and 2) as a result, your right arm is not taken back, ready in the trophy position (with racket above your head) in time when needed. You should really consider changing to an abbreviated racket takeback to fix this issue.

http://activewellinc.com/eph.jpg

I've seen your service video for the past year and they all just never looked right. I think Vols hit it on the head. Your right arm in the trophy position... you need to bend that arm.

Think of it this way, how do you throw a baseball... you wind up your arm by bending your elbow (like scratching your back), your right hand kind of goes behind your head, etc... you don't pitch it out with a straight arm. Same thing with the serve. Try it, pretend like you're going to throw a baseball (assuming you know, you don't throw like a girl) and freeze at the wind up. Thats how your right arm should feel in the trophy position, albeit with your left arm and body pointing up and etc...

pvaudio
07-28-2009, 06:59 AM
Tee hee hee I can see it coming together. Notice how you're leading with your hip now, fantastic. A couple things:

1. Toss is behind your head, keep fixing that

2. Dropping the racquet down low is fine...if done properly. Don't open the face up to the sky, leave it parallel to your rear leg or parallel to the net by your rear leg. This minimizes your difference in weight balance. Bringing it so far behind you will naturally offset your toss and bring it over your head.

3. Get some knee bend into that. You really need to get some in there to make use of everything else people are talking about.

NotAtTheNet
07-28-2009, 09:44 AM
2. Dropping the racquet down low is fine...if done properly. Don't open the face up to the sky, leave it parallel to your rear leg or parallel to the net by your rear leg. This minimizes your difference in weight balance. Bringing it so far behind you will naturally offset your toss and bring it over your head.

Yes that is true, but look, this is the extent of his wind up/backscratch, whatever.. its nonexistent. He is basically taking his straight arm down from his "trophy" position, and windmilling it up into contact. Thats just not right...

http://activewellinc.com/eph2.jpg

It makes his serve motion seem very polarized in a 2 stage process... After the toss his right arm should be wound up, elbow down, ready to smack the crap out of the ball as he comes out of his knee bend... but he doesn't, he then has to "wind up" (he doesn't, at least not much) and then come down on the ball. Thats why his motion always seems so clunkly. Somewhere in his serve progression he needs to be in that "arm loading". It can be early (Roddick goes straight to it) as he tosses the ball, or after, but I just don't see him really doing it in his motion.

NotAtTheNet
07-28-2009, 09:58 AM
In fact if we could trace the motion of his racquet head during his swing it would look like the following... a pete townshed windmill strum (image on the left)... it should look like the image in the right.

Racquet comes up as you toss, then down as you do the backscratch, then down, up and down. Of course this would be much better illustrated in 3 dimensions so you can see the pitch and yaw but hopefully you get my point...
http://activewellinc.com/eph3.jpg

smoothtennis
07-28-2009, 10:41 AM
Eph -

First of all the serve has improved over the past year for sure. You still have a tendency to rotate on your front foot before you swing the racket - BUT....BUT...you are starting to get away from that as you did at 51 seconds. Look at just your feet, and compare that to last year. I think the weight coming down is helping that part.

It definately looks better, but others here have given things that could still be worked on.

volusiano
07-28-2009, 12:30 PM
NotAtTheNet, I love how you do those freeze frames with the red comments/drawing on them. Pictures are worth a thousand words!

NotAtTheNet
07-28-2009, 01:01 PM
NotAtTheNet, I love how you do those freeze frames with the red comments/drawing on them. Pictures are worth a thousand words!

Lol thanks. I'm a firm believer in video taping yourself and going over your strokes. I had to rebuild my game from a 1.5 a over a year ago and wasn't able to get coaching. Thanks to the board commenting on my initial vids, I was able to figure out how I wanted to hit and execute.

I can proudly say I recently stood on the opposite side of the net from Drakulie and Panterka and didn't wet myself.

EPH has been on the boards for a while, and while he has made some progress, he really should be making alot more. I watched a ton of his vids on vimeo and youtube and just couldn't figure out why his motion was so clunky. Turns out he's windmilling. EPH, serious, pretend like your throwing a baseball. you get a ton of more power when you wind up and do a backscratch, than when you windmill arm it right? same thing goes for the serve!

Eph
07-28-2009, 01:04 PM
I'm trying, I'm trying.

I was a left handed pitcher who threw 90. Unfortunately, I'm not a left handed tennis player - attempts failed badly - so I'm stuck trying to relearn the pitching motion with my right hand. It's tough!

Hopefully I make some good progress this weekend!

pvaudio
07-28-2009, 01:07 PM
Yes that is true, but look, this is the extent of his wind up/backscratch, whatever.. its nonexistent. He is basically taking his straight arm down from his "trophy" position, and windmilling it up into contact. Thats just not right...

http://activewellinc.com/eph2.jpg

It makes his serve motion seem very polarized in a 2 stage process... After the toss his right arm should be wound up, elbow down, ready to smack the crap out of the ball as he comes out of his knee bend... but he doesn't, he then has to "wind up" (he doesn't, at least not much) and then come down on the ball. Thats why his motion always seems so clunkly. Somewhere in his serve progression he needs to be in that "arm loading". It can be early (Roddick goes straight to it) as he tosses the ball, or after, but I just don't see him really doing it in his motion.Of course my friend, of course. I didn't say that everything was bang on, since it's merely been what, four days since his first post? :)

Keep practicing, and the more you improve, the more you'll understand what we're trying to teach here. My man I quoted here is a great source of help, so listen to what he has to say.