Women's champion, gender in question

[raiden031]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/08/20/athletics.worlds.berlin.semenya.gender/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

Interesting story. I'm wondering what the discovery will be.

I looked at some pics on google and am not surprised by the accusations. I doubt she cheated, but I think there will be some kind of medical condition going on with her.

[pingu]

It is interesting especially in this crazy world. Can't tell which is which any more :)

[chess9]

Did you see the adam's apple on that girl? ;)

But, you can't tell for sure by looking at anyone.

DNA testing is the way, I assume.

-Rober

[albino smurf]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/08/20/athletics.worlds.berlin.semenya.gender/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

Interesting story. I'm wondering what the discovery will be.

I looked at some pics on google and am not surprised by the accusations. I doubt she cheated, but I think there will be some kind of medical condition going on with her.

Is having a penis a medical condition?

[pingu]

Did you see the adam's apple on that girl? ;)




Good eye :)

[albino smurf]

They can get Jamie Lee Curtis to play her in the movie version.

[raiden031]

Is having a penis a medical condition?

No thats cheating.

[albino smurf]

You shouldn't use them for evil, only good.

[フェデラー]

in america, there are more intersexed people than jews.

[pabletion]

Is having a penis a medical condition?

no, but maybe having a penis AND a vagina qualify as a medical condition.
That could be one guess..... maybe shes hermaphrodyte, or has a hormonal imbalance, but that chick, er.., dude...., that person doesnt look all female.

[albino smurf]

no, but maybe having a penis AND a vagina qualify as a medical condition.

touche. get all technical and ****.

[raiden031]

no, but maybe having a penis AND a vagina qualify as a medical condition.
That could be one guess..... maybe shes hermaphrodyte, or has a hormonal imbalance, but that chick, er.., dude...., that person doesnt look all female.

Judging by her running outfits, its doubtful there is any penis under there (unless she's pulling a Ray Finkel/Lois Einhorn type thing). But maybe she has some kind of hormone imbalance that produces too much testosterone. Its unclear to me how such a situation should be handled, especially if it gives her a clear advantage over the rest of the field.

Or maybe her dad put her through some elaborate sex change plan in order to produce a world class runner. Thats possible I guess.

[David_Is_Right]

"The gender verification test is an extremely complex procedure," said IAAF spokesman Nick Davies."

Establishing sex through DNA is hardly a complex procedure now.

[raiden031]

Establishing sex through DNA is hardly a complex procedure now.

No the procedure involves a gynecologist, psychologist, gender specialist, etc. It is no simple procedure. I'm surprised they are willing to go through such an invasive procedure with no real probable cause other than instant success and the manly appearance of the woman.

[David_Is_Right]

But maybe she has some kind of hormone imbalance that produces too much testosterone.

Or we could just opt for the simpler and more likely explanation that she's juiced up to hell like 99% of the other track and field athletes.

[David_Is_Right]

No the procedure involves a gynecologist, psychologist, gender specialist, etc. It is no simple procedure.

Why on earth would you need a gynecologist or a psychologist to determine a person's sex? How are these people going to shed light on how many Y chromosomes she has?

[raiden031]

Or we could just opt for the simpler and more likely explanation that she's juiced up to hell like 99% of the other track and field athletes.

Something tells me they would probably test her for drugs prior to testing for her gender. Seems like it would be an easier test to do.

[raiden031]

Why on earth would you need a gynecologist or a psychologist to determine a person's sex? How are these people going to shed light on how many Y chromosomes she has?

They need to prove that she never once had a penis or that she's not a hermaph. I don't know why they need a psychologist though.

[David_Is_Right]

Determining her sex through DNA will rule those things out.

[David_Is_Right]

Something tells me they would probably test her for drugs prior to testing for her gender. Seems like it would be an easier test to do.

I think it's a harder test. That's why they never caught Marion Jones!

[chess9]

Other evidence:

1. She only played with boys;
2. She dressed like a boy;
3. She looks like a boy;
4. She runs faster than 99% of boys, and all girls;
5. She either has a bad goiter condition or she has an Adam's Apple the size of Kansas;
6. She doesn't like boys.

Still... probably not enough.

-Robert

[ubermeyer]

LOL 5 people (including me) voted shemale...

[chess9]

Actually, WADA probably has tested her already. And they can test to parts per billion for many drugs, including steroids. She probably wouldn't benefit much from EPO. That test, if done right, is expensive, and takes awhile as I recall.

Interestingly, when I started taking a corticosteroid for my asthma, I figured since I was inhaling the drug it wouldn't be detected by a drug test. Even though only a very small fraction makes it to the blood stream, WADA would declare me a drug cheat if I didn't seek an exemption. A bit crazy for an age group athlete, but the likelihood of ever being tested is almost zero.

-Robert

[AAAA]

Found this on another forum

'With so many medical specialists involved, I'm wondering about a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia with virilisation, untreated. It would explain the need for an endocrinologist and psychologist'.

and CAH according to this .gov site

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/MEDLINEPLUS/ency/article/000411.htm

------------------------------
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia can affect both boys and girls. People with congenital adrenal hyperplasia lack an enzyme needed by the adrenal gland to make the hormones cortisol and aldosterone.

Without these hormones, the body produces more androgen, a type of male sex hormone. This causes male characteristics to appear early (or inappropriately).

About 1 in 10,000 to 18,000 children are born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
--------------------------------

[CCNM]

When I first saw her picture I thought perhaps she was born a man and is undergoing a sex change.

[Moz]

Some good articles on the complexities of determining sex.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/08/caster-semenya-male-or-female.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/08/sex-determination-in-sport.html

Incidentally, the way this whole affair was handled is an absolute disgrace to the sport.

[bhupaes]

Newsflash: Caster Semenya, the athlete whose victory is under a cloud due to questions surrounding her gender, made matters murkier when she responded to noisy reporters at a news conference: "S*ck my d*ck, you scumbags!"

(j/k :) )

[raiden031]

Newsflash: Caster Semenya, the athlete whose victory is under a cloud due to questions surrounding her gender, made matters murkier when she responded to noisy reporters at a news conference: "S*ck my d*ck, you scumbags!"

(j/k :) )

"Oops I mean eat my..."

[chess9]

I watched the race several times just now on youtube.

If I had to guess, I'd say 'she' either has extraordinarily high androgen levels (her t/e ratio is more like a male's) or she is intersexed or transsexed, or something like that.

Moz, I agree this might be very hard on 'her', but she's at the World Championships! She also beat a pretty English girl. ;)

Something else. Her parents and neighbors are all saying "Oh, she's a girl", but how would they know?

I really do hope we are all wrong and look like dirty old men. (I'm guilty already!).

-Robert

[raiden031]

Something else. Her parents and neighbors are all saying "Oh, she's a girl", but how would they know?

I really do hope we are all wrong and look like dirty old men. (I'm guilty already!).

-Robert

Well I'm guessing her parents changed enough diapers to know. The neighbors maybe they did as well.

[chess9]

Well I'm guessing her parents changed enough diapers to know. The neighbors maybe they did as well.

Changing diapers won't tell you someone's gender every time. That's my point!

-Robert

[raiden031]

Changing diapers won't tell you someone's gender every time. That's my point!

-Robert

So its possible to have a V but still be considered a male? If she has that congenital hyperplasia... mentioned earlier, does that make her a male or female?

[raiden031]

Watch this interview and see if it influences your decision for the poll. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-bqET22vEU

[AAAA]

So its possible to have a V but still be considered a male? If she has that congenital hyperplasia... mentioned earlier, does that make her a male or female?

That's the problem. I skimmed through some of those links. Gender and sex may be interchangeable terms in normal everyday use but medically they are not the same thing, so I read, and gender or was that sex isn't a binary condition, there are gray areas such as not 'all female' or 'all male'. Complication is that at which point do the experts agree someone is male or female enough to be classified in the male-female dichotomy society in general uses to group the sexes.

[chess9]

Watch this interview and see if it influences your decision for the poll. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-bqET22vEU

We need a bass in our quartet! Perfect!! ;) She'd have to shave the moustache though....

She can have one X and one Y chromosome. Or, two XXs. Or, two XXs and a Y. Something like that. She could have genetic anomalies that might make determining gender impossible.

-Robert

[raiden031]

That's the problem. I skimmed through some of those links. Gender and sex may be interchangeable terms in normal everyday use but medically they are not the same thing, so I read, and gender or was that sex isn't a binary condition, there are gray areas such as not 'all female' or 'all male'. Complication is that at which point do the experts agree someone is male or female enough to be classified in the male-female dichotomy society in general uses to group the sexes.

So where do you draw the line in sports? I mean what if all the top female competitors have some type of condition where they are slightly male genetically, even though its not obvious like it is in this woman's case. This makes me think of athletes like Mauresmo who has man-like features.

[AAAA]

So where do you draw the line in sports? I mean what if all the top female competitors have some type of condition where they are slightly male genetically, even though its not obvious like it is in this woman's case. This makes me think of athletes like Mauresmo who has man-like features.

I'm hardly in a position to answer that. If Caster Semanya has the CAH condition then classification as either male or female will not meet with universal acceptance between the viewing public+media, Caster + family and the other competitors. Without universal acceptance the event and achievements are tarnished with the unfair slur. What to do?

So many people see the world in black or white terms. It not always like that so when a person doesn't fit our nice models we cling onto a problem arises. The problem isn't the person, it's the way society divides the world such that there sometimes isn't 'room' or a place for those who don't neatly fit in.

[raiden031]

I'm hardly in a position to answer that. If Caster Semanya has the CAH condition then classification as either male or female will not meet with universal acceptance between the viewing public+media, Caster + family and the other competitors. Without universal acceptance the event and achievements are tarnished with the unfair slur. What to do?

So many people see the world in black or white terms. It not always like that so when a person doesn't fit our nice models we cling onto a problem arises. The problem isn't the person, it's the way society divides the world such that there sometimes isn't 'room' or a place for those who don't neatly fit in.

There has to be a line though if this woman is destroying the competition and there's nothing they can do about it because of some biological abnormality that makes her more like a guy.

It really sucks for her because she will probably be banned from women's competition, yet won't be good enough for men's competition. So she'll be somewhere in limbo.

[Jay_The_Nomad]

It's not always obvious.

Sarah Gronert.


http://www.totalprosports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sarah-gronert.jpg

[Bud]

Did you see the adam's apple on that girl? ;)

But, you can't tell for sure by looking at anyone.

DNA testing is the way, I assume.

-Rober

She looks like a man, talks like a man, runs like a man, has no boobs and a package in 'her' shorts. 'She' is also close if not over 6' tall.

There is no doubt in my mind this is a male.

[Bud]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00603/BOY2_585x435_603327a.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00603/BOY1_585x435_603330a.jpg

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00603/Semenya_603297a.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2009-08/48770655.jpg

[Bud]

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00871/SNF21262-682_871477a.jpg

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00871/SNF21264-682_871476a.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090820/af-semenya-s-village/images/0f654420-67c3-4177-adaa-47055daaf899.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/19/article-0-061D19E9000005DC-924_306x423.jpg

[Bud]

http://dailycontributor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Caster_Semenya.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/8/20/1250795242372/Caster-SemenyaJenny-Meado-001.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/20/article-0-061D2FCE000005DC-87_468x587.jpg

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/photo/competitions/competition/04/96/47/49647_full-prt.jpg

[Bud]

^^^ Sorry, but that is not a woman, in the traditional sense and I think the fact she's competing with other women is grossly unfair.

This 'girl' came out of nowhere and is shattering running records left and right at 18 years of age.

[Moz]

Looking at her record of times there is little doubt that things aren't normal. At this rate she will be breaking 1:50 in a few years.

For Caster the nightmare is just beginning.

[Sentinel]

Forget this babe. Did you ever see jarmila Kratochvilova --- PHEW !! Talk of muscles, even Nadal would have shrunk in front of her.
(image: Jarmila (http://srocespodogona.blox.pl/resource/kratochvilova.jpg))
A long while back there was a east european field athlete banned for being a man, or not beig a woman. She later (after retiring) got pregnant and had a child. I don't recall whether that was Tamara Press or someone else.


Ewa Kłobukowska was also the first Olympic athlete to fail a gender test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_K%C5%82obukowska#cite_note-0) Having registered "one chromosome too many", she failed an early form of the chromatin test in 1967 and was subsequently banned from competing in professional sports. The exact type of her chromosomal anomaly was never revealed.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_K%C5%82obukowska#cite_note-1). It has been reported that a number of years later she became pregnant and gave birth to a son[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_K%C5%82obukowska#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_K%C5%82obukowska#cite_note-3).
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewa_K%C5%82obukowska).

[Sentinel]

Newsflash: Caster Semenya, the athlete whose victory is under a cloud due to questions surrounding her gender, made matters murkier when she responded to noisy reporters at a news conference: "S*ck my d*ck, you scumbags!"

(j/k :) )
ROTFL !!!!!

There seems something strange in the name Semenya. Anyone else notice, or is it just me ????

^^^ Sorry, but that is not a woman, in the traditional sense and I think the fact she's competing with other women is grossly unfair.

This 'girl' came out of nowhere and is shattering running records left and right at 18 years of age.
Many years ago a bunch of chinese girls also came out of nowhere, shattered a bunch of records left and right, and then went back into nowhere too !!!

Talented guys like Said Aouita were also breaking records (in the Juniors) literally in the first year of running.

[Sentinel]

See the case of Stella Walsh (earlier Stanislawa W....) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz), too.

Walsh was a bystander in an armed robbery in Cleveland, Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland,_Ohio) on 4 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_4) 1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980), and was killed at the age of 69. An autopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy) showed that she possessed male[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-AP-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Britannica-7) genitalia, although some sources suggest she also displayed some female characteristics.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-S.C5.82onimski-8) Detailed investigation has also revealed that she had both an XX and an XY pair of chromosomes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Snochowska-Gonzales-1)
The controversy on her gender remains unresolved, and the situation is further complicated by the fact that many earlier documents, including her birth record, state that she was female.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Snochowska-Gonzales-1) There was also some controversy as to whether all her records and achievements should be erased.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Snochowska-Gonzales-1)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Smith-9)

Legacy

The case of Stanisława Walasiewicz (Stella) is often regarded as one of the reasons why the IOC has gradually dropped gender determination tests.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz#cite_note-Snochowska-Gonzales-1) In the end, such a requirement was dropped prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Summer_Olympics), as it was decided that genetic gender is not necessarily equal to social or biological gender.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] However, the issue is once again of importance with the International Association of Athletics Federations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_Athletics_Federations ) ordering and conducting gender determination testing on South African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa) Caster Semenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya), in August 2009. Results are yet to be published.

[chess9]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/sports/21runner.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&th&emc=th

"The Bantu, a group of indigenous South African people, often are hermaphrodites but they do not always have obvious male genitalia, said Dr. Maria New, an endocrinologist at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. They are genetically female yet have both testes and ovaries."

-Robert

[chess9]

If gender cannot be definite, then women and men should compete against each other.

-Robert

[pingu]

...women and men should compete against each other.

-Robert

LOL I thought that's what women have been doing :)

[chess9]

Yes, and they are winning! ;)

They need to stop that.

-Robert

[pingu]

Yes, and they are winning! ;)
...

-Robert

I think that's the problem :(

[albino smurf]

So Semenya! of dubious gender is sponsored by Tuks?? Maybe she should contact Nads hair removal as well.

[fps]

^^^ Sorry, but that is not a woman, in the traditional sense and I think the fact she's competing with other women is grossly unfair.

This 'girl' came out of nowhere and is shattering running records left and right at 18 years of age.

she hasn't broken any significant records that i'm aware of. and if she is able to have children, as far as i'm concerned, she's a woman, so we'll see what the result of the test is. "looking mannish" is not a reason to disqualify someone. what is your definition of "in the traditional sense", and could it be applied fairly to all female athletes regardless of aesthetics?

first time i saw her i definitely did a double take, and that was before all this gossip was given substance by the disgraceful timing and publicising of the tests, clearly designed by the IAAF to cause maximum embarrassment to the athlete and disruption to the athlete's preparation for the final, possibly to try and force her to pull out.

we must wait for the results. there is no suggestion that semenya knows anything about possibly genetically being a man, no suggestion she has deliberately cheated. poor girl, 18 years old, being forced to endure this.

they should drug test her, of course, but that goes for all athletes.

[chess9]

She's been drug tested. Nothing was found.

These are the world championships and she is already running times that, as Moz suggested, indicate she could go as low as the very low 1:50s.

Yes, she's probably an innocent victim of biology, but no one guarantees anyone a free emotional ride on this planet. We must all endure our slings and arrows.....

Is she a victim of racism? I hope not, and haven't seen any evidence of that.

At some point, athletic organizations need to confront this problem head on and reach agreement.

-Robert

[AAAA]

Forget this babe. Did you ever see jarmila Kratochvilova --- PHEW !! Talk of muscles, even Nadal would have shrunk in front of her.


Back in in the day when I did track & field unsuccessfully in school I remember watching her compete on TV. She still holds the 800m womens record. Semenya wasn't close to that. Jarmila faced the same suspicions in her day.

[raiden031]

she hasn't broken any significant records that i'm aware of. and if she is able to have children, as far as i'm concerned, she's a woman, so we'll see what the result of the test is. "looking mannish" is not a reason to disqualify someone. what is your definition of "in the traditional sense", and could it be applied fairly to all female athletes regardless of aesthetics?

first time i saw her i definitely did a double take, and that was before all this gossip was given substance by the disgraceful timing and publicising of the tests, clearly designed by the IAAF to cause maximum embarrassment to the athlete and disruption to the athlete's preparation for the final, possibly to try and force her to pull out.

we must wait for the results. there is no suggestion that semenya knows anything about possibly genetically being a man, no suggestion she has deliberately cheated. poor girl, 18 years old, being forced to endure this.

they should drug test her, of course, but that goes for all athletes.

I think her own country's track & field governing body dropped the ball on this one. They claimed they only use athletes who are cleared to compete as the gender they say they are. But from comments by one of their officials about her external genitalia being sufficient, that shows they are ignorant of really what makes someone a man or woman. They should have known there is more to it than whats on the outside. They thought that as long as there is nothing dangling, she is clear.

Unfortunately thats not fair because as we learned she can have physiology of a man without the external parts and blow out the competition. I kinda feel like the best course of action is to allow her results to stand, but forbid her from competing in any future events, assuming tests show she is too manly to compete with the women fairly.

[David_Is_Right]

If gender cannot be definite, then women and men should compete against each other.

I don't understand the problem? You either have a Y chromosome or you don't. Any amount of hormones, sex changes, etc. won't change that...

[David_Is_Right]

Actually, WADA probably has tested her already. And they can test to parts per billion for many drugs, including steroids.

They did that with Marion Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones) too. They didn't catch her during her career; she admitted it after she retired and went to jail. These athletes easily beat drugs tests.

[chess9]

This from Dr. Ross Tucker, editor of The Science of Sport:

"From sad to ugly: Semenya's detractors "are racists of the highest order"

I suppose it was inevitable. Given the charged nature of the debate, given the controversy that can see 200 comments written to an article, the debate around the sex of Caster Semenya was always going to provoke emotive responses.

But how about this one:

"This is about racism," Chuene said. "These rumours come from South Africa. Why did these people write to the IAAF?

These are the same people who don't want the 2010 World Cup, the same people who bring black people down and the same people who refuse to believe that Africans can make it on the world stage."

You might think this is random statement made in the heat of the moment. But then you discover that this is a statement made by the President of Athletics South Africa, Leonard Cheune. And he is not alone. The Young Communist League here in South Africa said:

""This smacks of racism of the highest order. It represents a mentality of conforming feminine outlook within the white race,"

Of course, all are entitled to their opinion. It does not escape my attention that one of the most celebrated races of the entire world champs was the women's 10,000m, where Linet Masai outkicked Melkamu for gold.

ASA denies all responsibility

However, what I'm more concerned with is the following statement by Cheune:

Chuene denied that ASA could have put out fires before they started if they had tested Semenya before she rose to the highest stage of international athletics.

"The responsibility of the federation (ASA) is to train children and take them to the championships," Chuene said. "When a child is born, the parents don't take them for tests to find out if it is a boy or a girl, they simply look.

"The family will bring us a child and say they have given us a girl, and we accept that.

"We then prepare her, which we did, and she went on to win gold, so we've done our job. You tell me what more we could have done."

The reality, Mr Cheune and ASA, is that there was a lot of reason to suspect, because Caster Semenya has herself said that she has faced allegation and rumor ever since she was young. Similarly, her coach, Michael Seme, has said many times that she has been questioned, all through her career.

And finally, I have it on very good authority that people from South Africa had objected long before world championships. This is a problem that has existed for years.

ASA's responsibility and possible actions

Next, it is VERY MUCH ASA's responsibity to manage Semenya's the athlete, which surely includes this aspect. It is only in a completely amateur organization, which has zero strategic plan, where a federation can limit it's responsibility to training athletes only.

To put this as simply as possible, there are only four possible scenarios here:

ASA did not do a single test on Semenya. If this is true, they have ignored the controversy, and the very obvious impending situation, and sent her into the Worlds, where this problem was going to surface. In this case, we have a case of neglect and irresponsibility.
ASA did do some tests, but only cursory tests, which they believe sufficed. As we've explained, and many of you have commented, the sex determination test is enormously possible, with a risk of false results. If this is what happened, then it is a case of carelessness. And yet Semenya was sent, without proper process being followed, ASA should be held accountable.
ASA did a very comprehensive tests, or did a minimum level of test, and uncovered that there was in fact grounds for suspicion. If this was true, then there is no way ASA should have entered Semenya, because they knew that a problem would arise. If they did, effectively playing Russain roulette with a young women's life, it would be despicable.

ASA did a very comprehensive test, and discovered no reason at all to doubt her sex. If this was true, ASA would be in the clear, and no problem would exist. I think it's safe to say that this was NOT done, because Cheune would have said so in his interview and this problem would have been managed.
I'm not sure if there is anything I'm missing here? The way I see it, these are the only three options. What of the IAAF? People have accused them of bringing this on themselves.

I disagree. I know that the IAAF sent a letter to ASA requested a report, on July 31 this year - that was after Semenya ran 1:56 in Mauritius. This letter is crucial, because it indicates that there were grounds for suspicion, that ASA knew of the potential problem (which makes a mockery of Chuene's claims).

My wish is to find out what the ASA response to that request was. What did ASA say in response to the IAAF? Was testing conducted? How was it done? And most important, what did it find? If it found any evidence at all for a problem, then there should be grave consequences indeed.

But to blame racism for this...that only compounds the problem.

How sad. Disgraceful.

Ross"

-Robert

[chess9]

They did that with Marion Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones) too. They didn't catch her during her career; she admitted it after she retired and went to jail. These athletes easily beat drugs tests.

Testing is much better today at WADA.

-Robert

[chess9]

I don't understand the problem? You either have a Y chromosome or you don't. Any amount of hormones, sex changes, etc. won't change that...

No, gender runs on a continuum from male to female. This harks back to the days when "humans" were probably either hermaphroditic, or intersexed, or some biologically similar structure. The Bantu are probably remnants of that time.

-Robert

[David_Is_Right]

Where are you getting this stuff? Sex in mammals is determined by XX and XY chromosomes.

There is no evidence to suggest that sex ("gender" has no biological definition) runs on a continuum in mammals, or that humans used to be hermaphroditic. This makes no biological sense whatsoever.

[chess9]

Where are you getting this stuff? Sex in mammals is determined by XX and XY chromosomes.

There is no evidence to suggest that sex ("gender" has no biological definition) runs on a continuum in mammals, or that humans used to be hermaphroditic. This makes no biological sense whatsoever.

See the links previously posted above on sex differentiation. Let's not bother to further discuss the possibility of humans being like, say, sea horses, as it confuses the debate. You can check on that bit of biology yourself, if you disagree.

-Robert

[David_Is_Right]

The sources above don't verify the claims you made. There are extremely rare cases that involve X or Y chromosomal anomolies, but this doesn't mean that sex in humans is on a "continuum" or that humans used to be hermaphrodites. This is simply false.

Sex in humans is determined by either an XX or an XY chromosome (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v451/n7178/full/451527a.html).

[raiden031]

I can't believe there is accusations that this is racially motivated. I highly doubt that if she was a white girl with muscles, a deep voice, mustache, and blew her opponents off the track that she would be accepted as a legitimate competitor.

[chess9]

David:

Here is a simple discussion of this rather complex issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation

Whether one is male or female is not merely a question of what chromosomes one has.

I'll be offline for a bit and catch you tomorrow. :)

-Robert

[Bud]

she hasn't broken any significant records that i'm aware of. and if she is able to have children, as far as i'm concerned, she's a woman, so we'll see what the result of the test is. "looking mannish" is not a reason to disqualify someone. what is your definition of "in the traditional sense", and could it be applied fairly to all female athletes regardless of aesthetics?

first time i saw her i definitely did a double take, and that was before all this gossip was given substance by the disgraceful timing and publicising of the tests, clearly designed by the IAAF to cause maximum embarrassment to the athlete and disruption to the athlete's preparation for the final, possibly to try and force her to pull out.

we must wait for the results. there is no suggestion that semenya knows anything about possibly genetically being a man, no suggestion she has deliberately cheated. poor girl, 18 years old, being forced to endure this.

they should drug test her, of course, but that goes for all athletes.

I don't think anyone's implying she's deliberately cheated. However, I think there is more to this story... we'll see if it grows legs :oops:

She's currently only 2.2 seconds off the world record... set 25+ years ago by a Czech. It's also interesting that most women peak at the 800 meter distance from about 25-30 years of age.

"Caster Semenya is a star, winning the gold medal in the women's 800 meters at the IAAF (International Association of Athletics Federations) World Championships in Berlin. Semenya posted a blistering time of one minute, 55.45 seconds that blew away the field, beating Janeth Jepkosgei of Kenya, who won this event last year, by 2.45 seconds. It was the world's best time this year, and who knows - the world record of 1:53:28, set by Jarmila Kratochivlova in 1983, may be within reach. At the age of 18, Semenya is a bona fide sensation in the track and field universe."

http://www.betus.com/sports-betting/other/articles/caster-semenya-is-the-800-meter-champ-but-is-she-a-she/

[Bud]

Back in in the day when I did track & field unsuccessfully in school I remember watching her compete on TV. She still holds the 800m womens record. Semenya wasn't close to that. Jarmila faced the same suspicions in her day.

Semenya just posted a time less than 2.5 seconds off Jarmila's 1983 world record.

- - -

This is quite an accomplishment in the span of less than 1 year: She trimmed nearly 9 seconds off her time in the span of 12 months.

Semenya participated in the 2008 World Junior Championships (July of 2008), but did not advance past the 800 metres heats. Later that year, she won gold in the 800 m at the 2008 Commonwealth Youth Games with a time of 2:04.23 in the final.

Semenya won the 800 m and 1500 m at the 2009 African Junior Championships with times of 1:56.72 and 4:08.01 respectively (July of 2009). The 800 m time was the fastest in 2009 when it was set. It was also a national record, championship record, and she bettered a previous personal best (2:00.58) by almost four seconds. The previous South African record, 1:58.85, was held by Zelda Pretorius and she also beat Zola Budd’s national Junior record (2:00.9).

Semenya won gold in the 800 m at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics (August of 2009) with a time of 1:55.45 in the final, a personal best and the fastest time in the world that year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

[raiden031]

This is quite an accomplishment in the span of less than 1 year: She trimmed nearly 9 seconds off her time in the span of 12 months.



Don't they say men peak later than women? :)

[Bud]

Where are you getting this stuff? Sex in mammals is determined by XX and XY chromosomes.

There is no evidence to suggest that sex ("gender" has no biological definition) runs on a continuum in mammals, or that humans used to be hermaphroditic. This makes no biological sense whatsoever.

The sources above don't verify the claims you made. There are extremely rare cases that involve X or Y chromosomal anomolies, but this doesn't mean that sex in humans is on a "continuum" or that humans used to be hermaphrodites. This is simply false.

Sex in humans is determined by either an XX or an XY chromosome (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v451/n7178/full/451527a.html).

It's WAY more complicated than this. Your thinking is from 30 years ago... and based on a high school biology class.

BTW, the link you posted is simply an abstract. What does the rest of the article say?

[Bud]

Watch this interview and see if it influences your decision for the poll. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-bqET22vEU
We need a bass in our quartet! Perfect!! ;) She'd have to shave the moustache though....

She can have one X and one Y chromosome. Or, two XXs. Or, two XXs and a Y. Something like that. She could have genetic anomalies that might make determining gender impossible.

-Robert

Seriously... she does have what looks like a shaved mustache and her voice is lower than nearly 100% of females.

There is no doubt in my mind, based on the evidence that 'she' is more male than female.

[AAAA]

Bud, 2.5 seconds is a big difference in an 800m race at world class level.

The rest of the post is irrelevant if she is only now tapping into her potential. What you posted doesn't indicate one way or the other to me.

Based on some of the links already posted which do appear genuine and valid I know I'm not qualified to judge from a scientific or medical angle. I'll look out for the verdict and that will be it for me. I'll accept the science before any of my socially conditioned responses in this situation.

[Bud]

Bud, 2.5 seconds is a big difference in an 800m race at world class level.

The rest of the post is irrelevant if she is only now tapping into her potential. What you posted doesn't indicate one way or the other to me.

Based on some of the links already posted which do appear genuine and valid I know I'm not qualified to judge from a scientific or medical angle. I'll look out for the verdict and that will be it for me. I'll accept the science before any of my social conditioning.

Not when she started seriously training in the last 12 months (at 17 years of age) and has already shaved almost 9 seconds off her time in that period.


BTW, here is the current woman's world record holder in the 800m:

http://srocespodogona.blox.pl/resource/kratochvilova.jpg

[David_Is_Right]

It's WAY more complicated than this. Your thinking is from 30 years ago... and based on a high school biology class.

Would you discount Newton's second law just because it's high school physics?

Of course it's more complicated than that. This complexity results from the genotypic differences between XX and XY.

You can't reference evidence that sex in humans is a "continuum" or that humans began as hermaphradites because there isn't any.

[Sentinel]

Semenya just posted a time less than 2.5 seconds off Jarmila's 1983 world record.

- - -

This is quite an accomplishment in the span of less than 1 year: She trimmed nearly 9 seconds off her time in the span of 12 months.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Bud,
a girls performance, or how fast she achieved it, or at what age does not make it illegal or make her a man. you are stressing something that is completely irrelevant.

[David_Is_Right]

The most likely scenario is that she's juiced up to hell.

[Bud]

Bud,
a girls performance, or how fast she achieved it, or at what age does not make it illegal or make her a man. you are stressing something that is completely irrelevant.

I disagree. Shaving that kind of time in the span of 12 months, for a fairly new competitive runner... to go within 2 seconds of the world record is significant.

At this pace, as others stated... she'll be shattering the world record, soon... and heading into the elite mens world record territory. Amazing accomplishment for someone who basically broke onto the scene 12 months ago.

[AAAA]

Not when she started seriously training in the last 12 months (at 17 years of age) and has already shaved almost 9 seconds off her time in that period.


Bud, that doesn't to me disagree with anything I said. 12 months of professional level training for unrealised potential is plenty of time to make huge gains for someone who appears to be genetically beyond the norm or accepted norm. Like I said she will be classified as one or the other after the tests.

[chess9]

Don't they say men peak later than women? :)

No, generally it's the other way around. Women don't hit their VO2max until their mid to late 30's. Sprinters generally lose a bit of their speed at a younger age, and distance runners gain a bit of speed with age. So, in two-ten years this 'girl' could hold the men's record at this rate. ;) The 800 has become a sprinter's race these days, like the 400. I think in this race they ran something like :56 for the first quarter. That's fast for women. My best 400 time ever was 52.3 and I think I was genetically male at the time. ;)

-Robert

[pingu]

It just made me LOL reading your responds CHESS :)

[chess9]

It just made me LOL reading your responds CHESS :)

Thanks, mate! ;)

-Robert

[chess9]

Testing for gender is very expensive, which is why it hasn't been implemented in large part. The SA officials couldn't afford to do that for every suspicious female athlete. In fact, it would bankrupt most sports federations.

Also, you won't always get agreement whether an athlete is male or female. A psychiatrist might say she thinks she's a female, she dresses like a female, and has female genitalia, therefore she is female. But, a geneticist might say that despite having a vagina and ovaries and a uterus she has a Y chromosome, so therefore she is male. This is vastly oversimplified for our purposes here, but you get the idea.

So, without an accepted standard for what constitutes being male and female, we have a QUANDARY sports fans, and a CONUNDRUM. ;)

-Robert

[Dedans Penthouse]

There seems something strange in the name Semenya. Anyone else notice, or is it just me ????That was a cleve little word play trick they employed when they changed her original name which was Caster Manbutter.

[chess9]

That was a cleve little word play trick they employed when they changed her original name which was Caster Manbutter.

LOL! They should have called her Castrato....

-Robert

[Bud]

That was a cleve little word play trick they employed when they changed her original name which was Caster Manbutter.

LOL! They should have called her Castrato....

-Robert

:lol::lol::lol:

[chess9]

http://www.slate.com/id/2225810/

"You can't tell for sure if an athlete is a man or a woman just by glancing at his or her genitalia. That's because some people are born with ambiguous sex organs, and others have a visible anatomy that doesn't match up with their sex chromosomes. Fears that male Olympic athletes might be competing as women led to mandatory physicals for females in the 1960s, which soon gave way to chromosome-based gender testing. Officials collected mouth scrapings and ran a simple test for the presence of two X chromosomes. The method proved to be unreliable, since it's possible for a biological male to have an extra X chromosome (XXY) or a female to only have one X chromosome.

The gender of an embryo is determined during its early development. If certain sex-determining genes are present, the fetus will develop testes, which in turn produce testosterone. It's the testosterone that makes the fetus into a boy. The genes that are important for this switch are generally located on the Y chromosome. By the 1992 Winter Games, officials started testing for one of these genes, called SRY—if you had it, you couldn't compete as a woman.

That test didn't work, either. Having the SRY gene material, or even a Y chromosome, doesn't always make you a man. Some people born with a Y chromosome develop all the physical characteristics of a woman except internal female sex organs. This can result from a defect in one of the genes that allows the body to process testosterone. Someone with this condition (known as "androgen insensitivity syndrome") might be XY, and she might develop testes. But she'll end up a woman, because her body never responds to the testosterone she's producing. Other signs of AIS include hairless genitalia and the absence of menstruation.

Since testosterone helps in building muscle and strength, a case of androgen insensitivity syndrome wouldn't give an XY-female athlete any kind of competitive advantage; if anything, it would be a liability. Seven of the eight women who tested positive for Y-chromosomal material during the 1996 Summer Games in Atlanta had some form of AIS. They were allowed to compete.

By the late 1990s, the International Olympic Committee turned to a more comprehensive evaluation by a panel of specialists to account for all these ambiguities. The panel now includes gynecologists, endocrinologists, psychologists, and experts on transgender issues. The examiners still test for the Y-chromosomal genes; gynecologists perform physical exams; endocrinologists diagnose gene disorders and resulting hormonal conditions; and athletes may be given psychological help to deal with the situation.

Mandatory gender testing of Olympic athletes was stopped altogether in 1999, but Olympic and IAAF rules allow for gender tests if an athlete's gender is challenged by another athlete or team, or event officials. ....Some athletes are called in for a complete exam after they give their urine sample during a doping test. Officials watch the whole process to make sure the athletes don't swap in someone else's pee, so they can flag anyone whose genitalia don't appear consistent with his or her stated gender.

Athletes who have undergone sex-reassignment are allowed to compete alongside their new gender, provided they follow regulations."


-Robert

[Sentinel]

LOL! They should have called her Castrato....

-Robert
That was another glaring one, but i just couldn't think of anything funny to say with that !!!

Manbutter -- lol, the kind of words invented in the US (assuming its a standard term now :-D )


So, in two-ten years this 'girl' could hold the men's record at this rate. :wink: The 800 has become a sprinter's race these days, like the 400. I think in this race they ran something like :56 for the first quarter. That's fast for women. My best 400 time ever was 52.3 and I think I was genetically male at the time. :wink:

Actually today the top women do run faster than the fastest men of most countries. A 100m of 10.4 or 10.5, or a marathon of 2:18 ?? or even 2:22 would be a winner in most countries.

Even the Olympic Men's Marathon, how many people run under the Women's world record time ? Not many. (Yes, you can argue tactics etc but still).

[Moz]

Actually today the top women do run faster than the fastest men of most countries. A 100m of 10.4 or 10.5, or a marathon of 2:18 ?? or even 2:22 would be a winner in most countries.

Even the Olympic Men's Marathon, how many people run under the Women's world record time ? Not many. (Yes, you can argue tactics etc but still).

Sorry, that's nonsense! The women's world record times in most events are the equivalent of the performance of a very strong club runner. That's even including those circumstances where the women's records are obviously drug assisted.

[Sentinel]

Sorry, that's nonsense! The women's world record times in most events are the equivalent of the performance of a very strong club runner. That's even including those circumstances where the women's records are obviously drug assisted.
You are obviously taking into account countries already leading in athletics. USA ? Some European countries ? A few african nations ? How many does that make.
In most asian countries the (women's) world 5k, 10k and marathon times are rarely touched by men. Maybe once in 10 years or so. My countries NR for the marathon is 2:11 run 20 years back or so. Routinely races are won in 2:25 or so.

Similarly in the 100m finals (nationals and equiv) only one person or 2 would go under the women's record (FloJo's 10,4 iirc).

I don't know what "club" runner means, but if you mean state level runners, do they run 2:18 marathons ? Or 29 minute 10k's ?
How many US male athletes ran under 30 minutes for the 10,000 in the last couple years ?

IIRC, once Zola Budd ran 14:48 in the 5000. That would have got her a 3rd place in my country's nationals (men's) in that year. (Men's NR 13:45, but first place usually 14:00 to 14:20).

[chess9]

Well, going 2:18 is NOT a big deal these days, even for, say, Maylasia, or Kuwait, or Ecuador. Consider that the top 400 times in the world are all under 2:09! That's about, what, 20 seconds a mile faster? That kind of pace differential at the top is beyond huge.

As an aside, during my mid 30's I ran with a group of fast guys but one of the guys had gone something like 29:30 or so for 10K. Most of us were running in the 32 to 35 minute range, like a decent woman runner :) . Anyway, on the Sunday morning 10 milers he would run with us for about 10-12 minutes, and about the time we were hitting the hammer, or so we thought, he was effortlessly moving away from us. We might have been doing a steady 5:30 pace or so and he could do anything from 4:30 to 5:00 with what seemed fluidic ease. Just too disgusting. ;) You are born with that talent....

-Robert

[raiden031]

I ran the Baltimore marathon last year and just browsing the results I found the following involving the top 4 men and women runners

Top 4 men - 2:12 - 2:14 (broke the women's record)

Top 4 women - 2:36 - 2:46

So I don't know if this event has the world's top athletes, but there's definitely a big difference here.

[Moz]

You are obviously taking into account countries already leading in athletics. USA ? Some European countries ? A few african nations ? How many does that make.


Well, I would say every European nation, every commonwealth nation and most african / south American nations.

To give you an idea, in the UK this year alone:

100m woman's world record has been beaten by 26 athletes (despite that the women's record is believed by the IAAF to have been run with illegal wind assistance).
200m woman's world record has been beaten by 27 athletes.
400m woman's world record (despite being generally regarded as drug assisted) has been beaten by 34 athletes.
800m woman's world record (despite being generally regarded as drug assisted) has been beaten by 139 athletes.
1500m woman's world record has been beaten by 90 athletes.
5000m woman's world record has been beaten by 37 athletes.
10000m woman's world record has been beaten by 10 athletes (although track 10k's are very rare in the UK).

Consider that the UK is hardly a running powerhouse it could be said your statement is pretty misleading. Unfortunately the stats are against you. The fact is that the women's world records are beaten every year by thousands of relatively ordinary male athletes.

That of course doesn't detract from the brilliance of the women's world records.

[hankash]

After watching the interview, and noticing how all the women are wearing the same attire except him/her with the long spandex as opposed to the short, I'm thinking guy, or hermaphrodite.

[Sentinel]

ok ok Moz you win !!!

I am in India (pop 1 billion). I rarely see 2:18's by men although our NR is 2:11 in 1978. I stopped following our nationals and even the Asian Games a long while ago due to the dismal performances.

If there are lots of club runners running 2:18 marathons in the UK/USA then i am totally off. My apologies.

I seem to have forgotten how this even pertains to Semenya's manhood (oops, womanhood) so lets call it off with a win to you.

Well, going 2:18 is NOT a big deal these days, even for, say, Maylasia, or Kuwait, or Ecuador. Consider that the top 400 times in the world are all under 2:09! That's about, what, 20 seconds a mile faster? That kind of pace differential at the top is beyond huge.

Someone mentioned Malaysia. I just googled and found 2:29 to be the NR for men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_records_in_the_Marathon

Kuwait seems to be 2:34 from 1978. don't know how updated these are ???

My point wasn't that there are only a few who can run faster than 2:18, i am quite aware of the numbers who can run a 2:09. When you see the list of participants at the Olympics and their best times, they are quite staggering. The Beijing Olympics had only 28 runners under 2:18.

[chess9]

Moz:

With all due respect, the UK, on a per capita basis, is probably one of the most genetically gifted, and under-appreciated groups of athletes in the world. I think it's your media that will not 'give it a rest', as they are always criticizing, or so it seems, very good efforts. Henman was crucified unmercifully in the English press, and Murray has borne some of that. Also, the English tend to understate their achievements, for the most part. Erm, well, you do have a few loud-mouthed soccer stars. ;)

-Robert

[chess9]

ok ok Moz you win !!!

I am in India (pop 1 billion). I rarely see 2:18's by men although our NR is 2:11 in 1978. I stopped following our nationals and even the Asian Games a long while ago due to the dismal performances.

If there are lots of club runners running 2:18 marathons in the UK/USA then i am totally off. My apologies.

I seem to have forgotten how this even pertains to Semenya's manhood (oops, womanhood) so lets call it off with a win to you.


Someone mentioned Malaysia. I just googled and found 2:29 to be the NR for men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_records_in_the_Marathon

Kuwait seems to be 2:34 from 1978. don't know how updated these are ???

My point wasn't that there are only a few who can run faster than 2:18, i am quite aware of the numbers who can run a 2:09. When you see the list of participants at the Olympics and their best times, they are quite staggering. The Beijing Olympics had only 28 runners under 2:18.

I just threw those countries' names out without checking on their times. ;) But, having the sort of VO2max that would produce fast times isn't enough. You must have a structure in place for finding and training those athletes, which is really where I was going with all of that. You are born with that ability. Yes, some populations have higher genetic abilities than others, but certainly 10 million Maylasions could produce one decent marathoner IF the requisite training was in place. Also, climate is a huge factor. Who wants to run in Ecuador? ;) A cool day on the South Downs is much more enjoyable.

-Robert

[maddogz32]

difinetly a she male

[Moz]

ok ok Moz you win !!!



All in good fun!

Moz:

With all due respect, the UK, on a per capita basis, is probably one of the most genetically gifted, and under-appreciated groups of athletes in the world. I think it's your media that will not 'give it a rest', as they are always criticizing, or so it seems, very good efforts. Henman was crucified unmercifully in the English press, and Murray has borne some of that. Also, the English tend to understate their achievements, for the most part. Erm, well, you do have a few loud-mouthed soccer stars. ;)

-Robert

Actually I was surprised at the middle distance depth that remains in Britain when looking up the times. The problem is that it seems that our distance runners cannot compete with the african countries so it appears that they poor. At least not when kids prefer computer games over running!

A bit like the US it seems we lost a decade when people started taking the low mileage training route, but that may be changing. Will be interesting to see what sort of athletes we can get together in 2012.

[Bud]

You are obviously taking into account countries already leading in athletics. USA ? Some European countries ? A few african nations ? How many does that make.
In most asian countries the (women's) world 5k, 10k and marathon times are rarely touched by men. Maybe once in 10 years or so. My countries NR for the marathon is 2:11 run 20 years back or so. Routinely races are won in 2:25 or so.

Similarly in the 100m finals (nationals and equiv) only one person or 2 would go under the women's record (FloJo's 10,4 iirc).

I don't know what "club" runner means, but if you mean state level runners, do they run 2:18 marathons ? Or 29 minute 10k's ?
How many US male athletes ran under 30 minutes for the 10,000 in the last couple years ?

IIRC, once Zola Budd ran 14:48 in the 5000. That would have got her a 3rd place in my country's nationals (men's) in that year. (Men's NR 13:45, but first place usually 14:00 to 14:20).

Isn't that the wench who intentionally tripped Mary Decker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QF9vOnkzvk

Watch at 7:30

[Bud]

After watching the interview, and noticing how all the women are wearing the same attire except him/her with the long spandex as opposed to the short, I'm thinking guy, or hermaphrodite.

I noticed that, as well. I think 'she' would have been freeballin in those hip-huggin running shorts the rest of the field were wearing :oops:

[heycal]

. "looking mannish" is not a reason to disqualify someone.

From a sporting event you mean?

This harks back to the days when "humans" were probably either hermaphroditic, or intersexed, or some biologically similar structure.

Like, back in 1920's or so?

However, I think there is more to this story... we'll see if it grows legs :oops:

Or a beard.

difinetly a she male

Definitely not. She-males generally look much more femine than this person does.

Isn't that the wench who intentionally tripped Mary Decker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QF9vOnkzvk

Watch at 7:30

Ah, that was a good one.

In any event, given the complex nature of this situation, and with no obvious solutions at hand, why don't we just restrict women's events to obviously feminine looking girls, like Playboy bunnies or something. Anyone more masculine looking than them must compete as a man, and that's that.

[Sentinel]

Isn't that the wench who intentionally tripped Mary Decker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QF9vOnkzvk

Watch at 7:30
Yes sir, i did see it on telly and it did seem to me a clear intentional trip, althou IIRC the Committee who reviewed it said it was not.

[Sentinel]

In any event, given the complex nature of this situation, and with no obvious solutions at hand, why don't we just restrict women's events to obviously feminine looking girls, like Playboy bunnies or something. Anyone more masculine looking than them must compete as a man, and that's that.
Ah thankfully we wont have to make any changes in the WTA since the Williamses, Safina, Kuzzie Stosur etal all look like Barbie dolls.

[Sentinel]

Moz:

With all due respect, the UK, on a per capita basis, is probably one of the most genetically gifted, and under-appreciated groups of athletes in the world. I think it's your media that will not 'give it a rest', as they are always criticizing, or so it seems, very good efforts. Henman was crucified unmercifully in the English press, and Murray has borne some of that. Also, the English tend to understate their achievements, for the most part. Erm, well, you do have a few loud-mouthed soccer stars. ;)

-Robert
*SIGH* -- I remember the days of Sebastian Coe, Ovett and also as a sidenote Dave Moorcroft (running a 13:00 minute 5000, or was it the first 12:59), and Steve Cram.
I still have Seb's auto/bio with me.:)

[Moz]

Isn't that the wench who intentionally tripped Mary Decker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QF9vOnkzvk

Watch at 7:30

Ah, you've got to be kiding me. You mean the one where Decker-Slaney tripped over through her own clumsiness?

Decker herself said:

“The reason I fell, some people think she tripped me deliberately. I happen to know that wasn’t the case at all. The reason I fell is because I am and was very inexperienced in running in a pack."

Decker later had a silver medal stripped for failing a drugs test.

*SIGH* -- I remember the days of Sebastian Coe, Ovett and also as a sidenote Dave Moorcroft (running a 13:00 minute 5000, or was it the first 12:59), and Steve Cram.
I still have Seb's auto/bio with me.:)

They were great days - what's Seb's book like?

Moorcroft's was the last non-african to hold the 5000m world record. His best time was agonisingly close to sub-13:00 at 13:00.41 - a race not run with pacemakers. He still holds the world record for the mile for over 40's.

[Sentinel]

They were great days - what's Seb's book like?

Moorcroft's was the last non-african to hold the 5000m world record. His best time was agonisingly close to sub-13:00 at 13:00.41 - a race not run with pacemakers. He still holds the world record for the mile for over 40's.
Yes, that was the time, your memory rules. That timing was burned into my mind for a long time. Now I do recall a dope test too for Mary.

Seb's book was Running Free (wuth David Miller). I liked it, read it back then in the early 80's (or whenever it came out). Pics and descriptions of many great races he ran. A lot of snippets of training runs. I enjoyed it.

A lot of details of the 80 Olympics and how he lost the 800 which was expected to be his race. iirc, the book brought that era alive.

I've read many others too (like Marty Liquori's book) and others. This must have been the best. I think i've thrown the others away in relocating.

[chess9]

HeyCal:

Regarding the hermaphroditism of humans, I'm sure it started during a Republican Administration, but probably not until Nixon. ;) Actually, hermaphroditism may be atavistic in the biological sense, but that is more conjecture than fact. Sequential hermaphroditism might be a survival mechanism.

Some interesting facts/opinions on hermaphroditism and gender:

"Fausto-Sterling contends that sex is a continuum rather than a collection of discretely defined phenotypes. She proposes that along this continuum are five points: male, ferm (female pseudohermaphrodite), hermaphrodite, merm (male pseudohermaphrodite), and female. Each has variations that shade into the neighboring point. She estimates the frequency of all sexually mosaic conditions (hermaphrodites and pseudohermaphrodites) in humans to be about 1% of the population.

Hermaphrodites have a long history. Indeed, many traditional cultures believed that the original person was perfect. Perfection means having no wants that need to be satisfied, so the first person was hermaphrodite. This can be seen in Plato's Symposium, where the original form of humanity was hemaphrodite, but when they got too numerous Zeus, decided to split them in half. After having done so, he finds that the now-separate sexes spend all their time trying to join themselves back together. Zeus decides to help these creatures by moving their genitalia such that when any two embraced, they might conceive and thus propagate. In some interpretations of Genesis, the primal Adam was a hermaphrodite, and the cleaving of this original person into male and female is evidence of the Fall. So, as the saying goes, "No one's perfect." From this site: http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=17&id=266

"A disproportionally high incidence of true hermaphroditism is seen among the South African black people, constituting 51% of children in local study on all intersex types. These patients were different from the commonly reported patients with true hermaphroditism in that the common gonad was a mixed type of ovotestis, making the management of such patients problematic. The aim of this study was to establish a protocol for the management for children with true hermaphroditism in Southern Africa. METHODS: Seventy-one children, over a 16-year period, were diagnosed with true hermaphroditism. After a decision on the child gender status, part of the management consisted of excision of all discordant and ovotesticular gonadal tissue. The histology of these gonads was then compared with the initial biopsy results. RESULTS: The histology of the initial gonadal biopsies showed that 55% of all gonads were ovotestes, 26% were ovaries, and 19% testes. Thirty-five patients had 44 gonads excised. Comparing the 2 sets of histology showed that the initial histology of the discordant gonads was insufficient to show all the ovotesticular tissue in 22% of gonads. Initial biopsies that showed testicular tissue only were misdiagnosed in 82% of cases. CONCLUSION: It is suggested that, in Southern African true hermaphrodites, all ovotestes, discordant gonads, and all gonads that show only testicular tissue be excised as part of the initial corrective management." From: http://www.gendercare.com/library/Page55.html

If you believe Fausto-Sterling, few of us are all male or all female.

This is a good news/bad news story for the 'girl' in question. She may have to face some awful conduct and comments by people who will not understand her condition. She may also have to actually compete as a male, assuming the decision goes that way. (NB: The studies of Bantus indicate 46, XX SRY negative chromosomes, so I will not be surprised if they declare her a FEMALE. But, she probably has testes and ovaries combined.) The good news is that she will know her true gender, even if it is mixed.
-Robert

[Objective Danny]

^^^ Sorry, but that is not a woman, in the traditional sense and I think the fact she's competing with other women is grossly unfair.

This 'girl' came out of nowhere and is shattering running records left and right at 18 years of age.


No need to apologize.

That is 100% a male! He shouldn't be allowed to compete with real women!

[chess9]

No need to apologize.

That is 100% a male! He shouldn't be allowed to compete with real women!

How would you know? ;)

-Robert

[Bud]

Yes sir, i did see it on telly and it did seem to me a clear intentional trip, althou IIRC the Committee who reviewed it said it was not.

I agree. I think there was some pushing and elbowing between Decker and Budd prior to the trip and I think Budd just wanted to get in one last, good dig prior to the final kick (pardon the pun) toward the finish line - in order to momentarily break Decker's concentration (as Decker was a notoriously strong finisher).

However, Budd stepped over a bit further than she intended into Decker as she looked surprised when Decker tripped and fell into the grass. I don't think she intentionally tried to injure Decker and take her out of medal contention. She did, however, go for a final hefty shove.

Looking back, Budd could very well have taken both Decker and herself out, had she intentionally tried that move as a trip.

[Bud]

Ah, you've got to be kiding me. You mean the one where Decker-Slaney tripped over through her own clumsiness?

Decker herself said:

“The reason I fell, some people think she tripped me deliberately. I happen to know that wasn’t the case at all. The reason I fell is because I am and was very inexperienced in running in a pack."

Decker later had a silver medal stripped for failing a drugs test.



They were great days - what's Seb's book like?

Moorcroft's was the last non-african to hold the 5000m world record. His best time was agonisingly close to sub-13:00 at 13:00.41 - a race not run with pacemakers. He still holds the world record for the mile for over 40's.

See my above post.

Budd got what she deserved... a finish to resounding boos from the stadium crowd.

What drug did Decker test positive for... Nandralone?

Did you notice that Budd was running barefoot in that race? :shock:

http://neuroanthropology.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/budd_decker.jpg

[Bud]

No need to apologize.

That is 100% a male! He shouldn't be allowed to compete with real women!

How would you know? ;)

-Robert

:oops::oops::oops:

[chess9]

:oops::oops::oops:

Just kidding him. He knows it. :)

-Robert

[goober]

See my above post.

Budd got what she deserved... a finish to resounding boos from the stadium crowd.

What drug did Decker test positive for... Nandralone?

Did you notice that Budd was running barefoot in that race? :shock:

http://neuroanthropology.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/budd_decker.jpg

Interestingly Zola Budd is living Myrtle Beach these days and competing in local events. Last year she competed in a cross country meet against 200 college runners and won the race at age 42:shock:

[Moz]

I agree. I think there was some pushing and elbowing between Decker and Budd prior to the trip and I think Budd just wanted to get in one last, good dig prior to the final kick (pardon the pun) toward the finish line - in order to momentarily break Decker's concentration (as Decker was a notoriously strong finisher).

However, Budd stepped over a bit further than she intended into Decker as she looked surprised when Decker tripped and fell into the grass. I don't think she intentionally tried to injure Decker and take her out of medal contention. She did, however, go for a final hefty shove.

Looking back, Budd could very well have taken both Decker and herself out, had she intentionally tried that move as a trip.

So, you are saying your opinion of the trip is more relevant than that of Decker's? Really? What do you think of what Decker said regarding the incident?

Decker was a strong finisher, but this happened early. Are you suggesting that she did this in anticipation of her kick barely halfway through the race (1700m)? This occured nowhere near the finish line.

See my above post.

Budd got what she deserved... a finish to resounding boos from the stadium crowd.



Budd got nothing like what she deserved. A 17 year old scapegoat for the local golden girl's idiocy. An overrated girl who wasn't even favourite for the race running into trouble of her own accord. The crowd's treatment was disgraceful and uninformed. What I would expect from jingoistic spectators who would only ever watch athletics when the olympic games are in their own backyard.

[/QUOTE]



What drug did Decker test positive for... Nandralone?



Testosterone / epitestosterone ratio.



Did you notice that Budd was running barefoot in that race? :shock:

http://neuroanthropology.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/budd_decker.jpg



Not sure what difference that makes. If you've ever run a tight track race such as this you'd be wanting to steer clear of trouble if you are bare-footed.

I hate to say this to a respected member of the boards, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about in this instance.

"Track officials initially disqualified Budd for obstruction, but she was reinstated just one hour later once officials had viewed films of the race."

[Moz]

Interestingly Zola Budd is living Myrtle Beach these days and competing in local events. Last year she competed in a cross country meet against 200 college runners and won the race at age 42:shock:

I think I read that interview. Interesting to hear how she appeared to be used a political pawn at the time. Often we forget these are under age people we are pontificating about / criticising.

Even the subject of this thread is 18 years old, but she seems to be fair game for anything,

[Bud]

I hate to say this to a respected member of the boards, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about in this instance.

Great, then we can agree to disagree :wink:

[heycal]

Great, then we can agree to disagree :wink:

Don't stop bickering on our account. I love seeing a catfight over an ancient sporting event I'd all but forgotten about. My curiousity has been piqued and I'll watch the tape myself and read up on it.

Next up, a knock down, drag out fight over the 1972 Olympic basketball final!

[Sentinel]

Hey gentlemen, lets not fight over Zola and Mary. What happened happened. :-D

I am sure I need not remind you folks how nasty the men's races could be with the "boxing" that used to happen. Your memories are far better than mine. And by boxing i mean "creating a box around" and not punching.

I vaguely recall Sebastian Coe talking about how to break out of the box, and that involved (if my weak memory serves me correct) throwing one arm out and lunging out of the box.

There were lots of ugly elbowing incidents - maybe it was Seb's book where it was mentioned. Anyway, moz, its good to know you have a sharp memory of those days.

[Moz]

Great, then we can agree to disagree :wink:

Yes, let's do that. :)

I apologise for the tone of my post. I'd had a few beers and had my cape crusader outfit on! My new pc will come with a breathalyser.

Don't stop bickering on our account. I love seeing a catfight over an ancient sporting event I'd all but forgotten about. My curiousity has been piqued and I'll watch the tape myself and read up on it.

Next up, a knock down, drag out fight over the 1972 Olympic basketball final!

Ha ha. Perhaps we can find a Frenchman who still believes they won at Waterloo to argue with.

Hey gentlemen, lets not fight over Zola and Mary. What happened happened. :-D

I am sure I need not remind you folks how nasty the men's races could be with the "boxing" that used to happen. Your memories are far better than mine. And by boxing i mean "creating a box around" and not punching.

I vaguely recall Sebastian Coe talking about how to break out of the box, and that involved (if my weak memory serves me correct) throwing one arm out and lunging out of the box.

There were lots of ugly elbowing incidents - maybe it was Seb's book where it was mentioned. Anyway, moz, its good to know you have a sharp memory of those days.

I must admit I thought it was getting more polite on the track these days, but these world championships have been pretty rough. Did you all see what happened in the women's 1500m at the world champs yesterday? The winner got disqualified:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeRfy28P7ms&feature=related

I think the British Athletics Federation used to run elbow-sharpening workshops back then.

I've been surprised how easily spikes draw blood. I clipped a couple of heels this year in races and came off with quite a few cuts.

[Bud]

I must admit I thought it was getting more polite on the track these days, but these world championships have been pretty rough. Did you all see what happened in the women's 1500m at the world champs yesterday? The winner got disqualified:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeRfy28P7ms&feature=related

I think the British Athletics Federation used to run elbow-sharpening workshops back then.

I've been surprised how easily spikes draw blood. I clipped a couple of heels this year in races and came off with quite a few cuts.

What she did in that video is ultimately no different than what happened in the Budd-Decker affair, IMO. They bumped and one runner went down. She didn't push that runner down on purpose. So, why was she disqualified in this case?

At the time (I was watching it live on TV in 1984), the Budd situation seemed different because of the distance her left foot deviated from it's straight path and shot out to the left... in front of Decker's path of travel.

Like I stated yesterday... after reviewing the video, it appeared Budd thought Decker was next to and slightly behind her and she wanted to give her a final shove (as they'd apparently made contact a number of times throughout the race). When Budd went to 'bump' Decker, no one was there... so she ended up stepping over to her left as she went off balance. In order to re-balance her weight and stay in her lane, her left foot shot out in front of Decker... and Decker's leg was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I still feel that Budd wanted to impart one final 'bump' to Decker... but did not intend to trip her or knock her down.

[chess9]

THIS STORY HAS TAKEN A BIZARRE TWIST:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6078171/World-Athletics-Caster-Semenya-tests-show-high-testosterone-levels.html

"A source close to the investigation into the 800 metres gold medallist has confirmed that tests carried out before the start of the World Championships indicated that the runner had three times the normal female level of testosterone in her body.

Telegraph Sport can also reveal that the head coach of the South African team is Dr Ekkart Arbeit, the former East German coach who was accused by a female athlete of giving her so many anabolic steroids that she was forced to undergo a sex-change operation and live the rest of her life as a man."

-Robert

[goober]

THIS STORY HAS TAKEN A BIZARRE TWIST:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6078171/World-Athletics-Caster-Semenya-tests-show-high-testosterone-levels.html

"A source close to the investigation into the 800 metres gold medallist has confirmed that tests carried out before the start of the World Championships indicated that the runner had three times the normal female level of testosterone in her body.

Telegraph Sport can also reveal that the head coach of the South African team is Dr Ekkart Arbeit, the former East German coach who was accused by a female athlete of giving her so many anabolic steroids that she was forced to undergo a sex-change operation and live the rest of her life as a man."

-Robert


Wow what made the South African team hire that guy? His rep I thought would be too tarnished to get such a high level position. They must want to win real bad...

[chess9]

He apparently trained a British runner as well. This may not have anything to do with him at all, but it certainly sensationalizes the process. If he's given 'her' some steroids, his career is over. However, she'd been found earlier to have no EXOGENOUS anabolics in her system.

What the story ISN'T saying is that women are allowed to have up to 50% of the max male levels of T, as I recall, so she may not be over that level. Some women do have naturally high levels of T. Nonetheless, she probably has T levels higher than most males on this board who are over 30. ;)

-Robert

[Bud]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00604/Caster_Semenya_604420a.jpg

"In a school photograph taken shortly before her 15th birthday, Semenya stands awkwardly under the blinding African sun. A full head and shoulders above her classmates, she is dressed in men’s pleated trousers and an unflattering shirt. Her friends wear knee socks and skirts."

"The turning point in her life came just three weeks ago, on July 31, when she won the African junior championships in Mauritius. She ran the fastest 800 metres in the world this year — by anyone, junior or senior. Within a week the Athletics South Africa hierarchy had catapulted her into the world championship squad." - which she also won, missing the world record (set in 1983) by a bit over 2 seconds.

"At 18 she is only just beginning as a middle-distance runner. Experience shows that such athletes become more powerful as they grow older. There is no reason why she could not compete for another 15 years — if the IAAF decides she can participate as a woman and if she can cope with the scrutiny and suspicion."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6806403.ece

[chess9]

If they decide she's a man, why not run as a man? She's very talented and would beat most men with her speed. If she drops just a few seconds a year for the next three or four years, she'll be a world class MALE competitor. :)
What's the current men's record? Around 1:42?

Anyway, that might be an even better story!

-Robert

[Bud]

If they decide she's a man, why not run as a man? She's very talented and would beat most men with her speed. If she drops just a few seconds a year for the next three or four years, she'll be a world class MALE competitor. :)
What's the current men's record? Around 1:42?

Anyway, that might be an even better story!

-Robert

That's a great point.

Even if she's forbidden to compete as a woman and the drug tests show she's not doping... why not just compete with the men? Once she breaks the women's 800 meter record (which she will), she's a mere 10 seconds from the world record men's time in the 800 meters. That said, she won't peak for another 10-12 years.

She's been a 'senior' runner for less than a month after winning the junior title at the end of July 2009 at 18... and nearly set a world record running in her first senior event.

Semenya is a talented runner, period... regardless of her true gender.

Those SA people pulling the race/gender/nationality card are quickly losing their credibility... as another black female from Africa (Kenya) placed second behind Semenya, winning the silver medal. So, even if Semenya loses her gold medal due to gender issues... another black African woman wins the gold medal. That's what kills the gender, racial, national argument.

http://berlin.iaaf.org/results/racedate=08-19-2009/sex=W/discCode=800/combCode=hash/roundCode=f/results.html

[chess9]

Yes, and her parents have lost a daughter but gained a son. And none of this is her fault probably. She'd also make more money running as a man.

So, this may turn out ok in the end, if she isn't an emotional wreck when it's over! If someone told me "We've just looked at your DNA and you are an hermophrodite", I'd probably be very upset for awhile, then laugh my ass off. ;) Her mileage may vary.

-Robert

[Moz]

You would expect her to peak in her mid 20's as a middle distance runner.

The world record is 1:41.11 and the current world best for a junior was set last year at 1:42.69 although 1:46 is generally competitive at the top. She wouldn't get anywhere in the men's ranks unless she is running her current times while severely undertrained.

[chess9]

Wasn't her first 800 race just about a month ago? :)

I'd guess she hasn't been trained optimally since she joined the national team, what, two weeks ago? And how much was she holding back? ;) You know, when you are winning 5-0, it's kind of hard to put the hammer down. ;) In the World Championship race she hardly looked pressed. I'll bet she's got five seconds less in her right now.

This could get very interesting....

-Robert

[Moz]

Yes, you're probably right she is very undertrained.

It certainly could get interesting unless of course she is found to be a woman and then the winner of all future big 800m races is already decided!

[Bud]

Wasn't her first 800 race just about a month ago? :)

I'd guess she hasn't been trained optimally since she joined the national team, what, two weeks ago? And how much was she holding back? ;) You know, when you are winning 5-0, it's kind of hard to put the hammer down. ;) In the World Championship race she hardly looked pressed. I'll bet she's got five seconds less in her right now.

This could get very interesting....

-Robert

Yes, she placed first in the 800m on July 31, 2009 at the African Junior Championships with a time of 1:56.72

Currently with her senior time of 1:55.45, she is the 11th fastest woman in the 800m of all time. She'd been training for 2 weeks post-junior and has already shaved off approximately 1.27 seconds at the 2009 World Championships in athletics in Berlin.

http://www.africanathletics.org/?p=243

In October of 2008, she won the 800m at the Commonwealth Youth Games in Pune, India. There, she ran a time of 2:04.23

http://results.cygpune2008.com/resultbysportabca.html?sportid=AT&sportName=Athletics

[Moz]

The IAAF have an interesting dilemna.

What would be best for the sport?

Having a woman so dominant over 800m that each race is a non-event with the rumours accompanying her everywhere (and perhaps over 400 / 1500m too).

Or say she's a man and sweep her under the carpet that way.

I wonder how independently the tests are being administered.

There's no way a junior woman is running these times.

[Bud]

The IAAF have an interesting dilemna.

What would be best for the sport?

Having a woman so dominant over 800m that each race is a non-event with the rumours accompanying her everywhere (and perhaps over 400 / 1500m too).

Or say she's a man and sweep her under the carpet that way.

I wonder how independently the tests are being administered.

There's no way a junior woman is running these times.

It sounds like we've convinced you :)

[Bud]

Yes, she placed first in the 800m on July 31, 2009 at the African Junior Championships with a time of 1:56.72

Currently with her senior time of 1:55.45, she is the 11th fastest woman in the 800m of all time. She'd been training for 2 weeks post-junior and has already shaved off approximately 1.27 seconds at the 2009 World Championships in athletics in Berlin.

http://www.africanathletics.org/?p=243

In October of 2008, she won the 800m at the Commonwealth Youth Games in Pune, India. There, she ran a time of 2:04.23

http://results.cygpune2008.com/resultbysportabca.html?sportid=AT&sportName=Athletics

The IAAF have an interesting dilemna.

What would be best for the sport?

Having a woman so dominant over 800m that each race is a non-event with the rumours accompanying her everywhere (and perhaps over 400 / 1500m too).

Or say she's a man and sweep her under the carpet that way.

I wonder how independently the tests are being administered.

There's no way a junior woman is running these times.

Moz, with this time (1:56.72) as an untrained/undertrained junior female runner and her latest accomplishment of 1:55.45 (2 weeks into competing at senior level events)... what kind of times are possible in the years ahead for Semenya if she's allowed to continuing competing as a woman... Low to middle 1:40's?

[chess9]

Yes, and there is a tragic possibility. She could be judged a MALE, but because of a defect in her gestation she might not have enough testosterone to be a true world class male runner. Although, from a physiological perspective, testosterone is less important from middle distances onward I suspect. You would certainly expect a fast marathoner to have lower levels of T than an Olympic boxer, for instance. Oxygen metabolism is much more important.

-Robert

[chess9]

They should test her VO2max. :) If she's pulling 80's, well....

-Robert

[Moz]

It sounds like we've convinced you :)

Yes, the more I think about itthe more it cannot be so.

Moz, with this time (1:56.72) as an un/undertrained junior female runner... what kind of times are possible in the years ahead for Semenya if she's allowed to continuing competing as a woman? Middle to low 1:40's?

Well she ran 1:55 in the 800m final leading from the front and won by a long way, pretty comfortably. I just watched it again and I'm pretty sure she could have broken the world record.

I'd take a guess at 1:46-ish with normal development. The difficulty in going any quicker will be that she will basically be running solo time trials.

I would also guess that she could win the 400m at the 2012 olympics and if she's running sub 1:50 by then also the 1500m.

My guess is she gets thrown out as this cannot be allowed to happen for the sport.

[Bud]

Yes, the more I think about itthe more it cannot be so.



Well she ran 1:55 in the 800m final leading from the front and won by a long way, pretty comfortably. I just watched it again and I'm pretty sure she could have broken the world record.

I'd take a guess at 1:46-ish with normal development. The difficulty in going any quicker will be that she will basically be running solo time trials.

I would also guess that she could win the 400m at the 2012 olympics and if she's running sub 1:50 by then also the 1500m.

My guess is she gets thrown out as this cannot be allowed to happen for the sport.

What would happen if she ran an 800m race with a group of elite male 800m runners? That would give her some drafting benefits... plus she'd be pushed by the pace.

[Moz]

What would happen if she ran an 800m race with a group of elite male 800m runners? That would give her some drafting benefits... plus she'd be pushed by the pace.

I would guess that 1:46 would be her limit anyway, so maybe 1:48 without pacers / male athletes. For record purposes I don't believe times run in mixed track races are eligible (although okay for road).

The bottom line is that if she can break 1:52 in the next 12 months with apparently so little training she is either on drugs, not a woman or a new type of semi-woman!!

[Moz]

Incidentally - when you are talking about someone running 1:48 for the 800m you are talking about the level of athlete who could break a 4 minute mile.

[chess9]

I doubt she would be the men's world record holder. Even if she were already a man that is a stretch. BUT...she could be very competitive as a male and might be one of the top two males in South Africa. She'd be a good addition to the 4 x 400 team. (Will that be an event in London?) And who knows, maybe she's really a miler or 5,000 meter girl?

Or, boy/man.

-Robert

[chess9]

Regardless, this is one of the most fascinating sports stories in quite awhile.

-Robert

[AAAA]

Indeed, after Usain Bolt, Semenya is the probably the next biggest story emerging from Berlin 2009. It shouldn't have reached this stage but that can be said about far more serious global events.

[Sentinel]

They should test her VO2max. :) If she's pulling 80's, well....

-Robert
Prolly more. I remember reading about 20 years back or more, that Said Aoiuta was 93 or 94.

I don't think male and female is as cut and dried as XX and XY. Isn't that just an arbitrary definition we have evolved ? (Just WONDERING).
For nature is it not child-bearing capabilities that make one female? Whether they are fully functional is another issue.

Back to hte definition, an XX could have a higher natural production of male hormones that other females (or even average males) giving an advantage.

Another thought i have is that nature is always trying out. it does not create clones and copies. So our human concept of "normal" does not apply to nature. IF nature starts creating stronger females, do we start disallowing them from competition. What if over a period of time these become the norm?

Also, aren't all Olympians genetically superior anyway to the others. Coming from India i know how our genetics is nowhere on par with Africans or even whites in terms of athletics.

If we look at the average height of males throughout the world with CHina and India taking a sizeable percentage, I think i could put up a case that anyone over 6' should be disallowed fomr competing in Basketball cause there's no way the "average" male can compete. I know i am being ridiculous but i am only trying to highlight the possibility that the Olympics and top level sports is all about genetic advantages anyway.

[raiden031]

I wonder what percent I am a woman? Like 1% maybe?

[Bud]

I wonder what percent I am a woman? Like 1% maybe?

I'd say closer to 50% :lol:

[Sentinel]

I'd say closer to 50% :lol:
Do you mean that one X chromo makes us half woman ?

Is it true that if you have too much alcohol (or was it steroids or what?) that a guy can start lactating.

[Trainer]

I have questions about Ana Ivaovic's geder.... I volunteer to check this out if the WTA would like.

[Bud]

Do you mean that one X chromo makes us half woman ?

Is it true that if you have too much alcohol (or was it steroids or what?) that a guy can start lactating.

Dunno... try it and let us know :oops:

[Bud]

I have questions about Ana Ivaovic's geder.... I volunteer to check this out if the WTA would like.

You mean Ivo Karlovic? :twisted:

[Sentinel]

Is it true that if you have too much alcohol (or was it steroids or what?) that a guy can start lactating.

Dunno... try it and let us know :oops:
I just had a double chocolate rum milkshake 30 minutes ago and I've grown teats, udders and the works.

:):)

[Bud]

I just had a double chocolate rum milkshake 30 minutes ago and I've grown teats, udders and the works.

:):)

Nice avatar :p

[AAAA]

Do you mean that one X chromo makes us half woman ?

Is it true that if you have too much alcohol (or was it steroids or what?) that a guy can start lactating.

There are guys with moobs so you might be onto something.

[chess9]

The IAAF have an interesting dilemna.

What would be best for the sport?

Having a woman so dominant over 800m that each race is a non-event with the rumours accompanying her everywhere (and perhaps over 400 / 1500m too).

Or say she's a man and sweep her under the carpet that way.

I wonder how independently the tests are being administered.

There's no way a junior woman is running these times.

I was thinking something even stranger could happen. Suppose they determine 'SHE' is a female because she is intersexed with an XX chromosomal makeup. Suppose further, that she breaks the men's record as a female because she has supra-physiological levels of testosterone and a VO2max over 95? :)

I know that women the world over would go nuts! And what about guys who run the 800? ;)

EDIT: Oh, and here's a way to see if she REALLY has balls: Ask her if she will run against the men regardless of the results of her genetic testing! If she answers "Bring 'em on", then will the IAAF have to let her run against the men? ;)

-Robert

[chess9]

Love your avatar Sentinel. It has a certain je ne sais quois! ;)

Please report immediately to Dire Desire for a moderator's check of your equipment. ;)

-Robert

[chess9]

http://running.competitor.com/features/what-is-caster-semenya_4836

Dr. Ross Hunter:

"History of Gender Verification in Athletics

These two examples highlight the problem with a straightforward observation, which is actually what the sex verification process used to consist of. When sex verification was introduced in 1966, female competitors had to stand naked in front of a committee and were subjected to inspection of their external genitalia, in what where called “nude parades”.

That ill-conceived standard was replaced by a chromosome test of sorts, which looked for something called a Barr Body, which only exists when there are two X chromosomes. As we’ve seen, those two X chromosomes don’t necessarily indicate female gender, and so this test was not accurate by itself either.

The limitations discovered in these early verification procedures are the reason the current sex verification process is so complex. It now involves a multidisciplinary approach, which includes genetic, gynecological, psychological, internal medicine and endocrine experts, and is only done when suspicion or a challenge arises (compulsory screening having been scrapped in 2000).

We’ve already explained why the first two specialists are needed. The internal medicine specialist investigates the presence of internal structures that are male or female, while the psychological assessment involves assessment of the brain, since testosterone and other sex hormones influence the brain as well.

Finally, there is an endocrine assessment, and this is where the real functional differences are often found. Endocrine experts assess hormone levels, and the biggest difference between males and females is the level of testosterone, and other hormones like it. Collectively, they are called androgenizing hormones, and they’re responsible for the biggest differences between men and women with respect to exercise."

-Robert

[Sentinel]

Love your avatar Sentinel. It has a certain je ne sais quois! ;)

Please report immediately to Dire Desire for a moderator's check of your equipment. ;)

-Robert

Thanks, I love the avatar too, in fact, i've fallen in love with the lady, too!

Just read in the papers that the First Lady of SA Sport returned home to a rousing welcome. Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/25/caster-semenya-welcomed-home).

[Bud]

Thanks, I love the avatar too, in fact, i've fallen in love with the lady, too!

Just read in the papers that the First Lady of SA Sport returned home to a rousing welcome. Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/25/caster-semenya-welcomed-home).

Regardless of her final gender determination, I admire her strength, courage and dignity during a most trying time.

I hope she comes out of this controversy a stronger, better person and athlete.

[Sentinel]

I was thinking something even stranger could happen. Suppose they determine 'SHE' is a female because she is intersexed with an XX chromosomal makeup. Suppose further, that she breaks the men's record as a female because she has supra-physiological levels of testosterone and a VO2max over 95? :)


-Robert
I just got a snippet on the news that her testosterone levels are normal.

What could happen is that this controversy could trouble her to the point where she either cannot perform, or just disappears.

I can't remember the parallel. There's another story i read that comes to mind of an African long distance runner, married girl, (iirc very gifted) but none of these gender problems. Her brother (a road runner) travelled to Europe or the US and died in a car accident and she was too devastated to continue. I must have read this in the Runners World or some such mag, where else ? 1980's.

Yeah, best wishes to her.

[chess9]

One source, which I quoted above, said she has three times a normal woman's testosterone.

-Robert

[Sentinel]

Yes, i googled "caster semenya testosterone level" and got 3 times average.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/semenyas-testosterone-levels-three-times-average-20090826-eygn.html

There's a frightening line in the second para about another athlete.

High hormone levels do not always translate to a failed drugs test. Testosterone levels can vary widely.
The results contributed to the International Association of Athletics Federations' request for detailed "gender verification" tests on the star teenager.
The Telegraph also revealed the South African athletics team's head coach was Dr Ekkart Arbeit, a former East German coach accused by a female athlete of giving her so many anabolic steroids she was forced to have a sex-change operation.
It was not clear how closely Dr Arbeit worked with Semenya, the Telegraph reported.

[Sentinel]

Jenny Meadows has slammed the treatment of 800m gold medallist Caster Semenya as "dehumanising" and said she has no interest in a medal upgrade.


Meadows, who will move up to silver if Semenya is disqualified following a 'gender verification test', said: "Caster should never have been put in that position - it's dehumanising her.
"She's gone and got a world gold and she didn't even get to do a lap of honour.

"She didn't make much eye contact with anybody. I think she was half embarrassed by the whole situation herself.

"I hope for the sake of everyone in the competition that I keep the bronze and my third place is legitimate."


Former Olympic champion Denise Lewis described the 18-year-old South African's treatment as "absolutely dreadful".

[chess9]

It is too bad that all of this was made public and so soon, but the 'girl' is proving to be resilient so far and she has the support of her community and country regardless of the outcome. No race or sport is worth destroying someone.

-Robert

[Wakenslam]

Let's set hormone levels aside for a moment. Did anyone check between this athelete's legs? Wouldn't that settle things very quickly? :oops:

[chess9]

Let's set hormone levels aside for a moment. Did anyone check between this athelete's legs? Wouldn't that settle things very quickly? :oops:

No. You need to read some this thread!

-Robert

[Trainer]

No. You need to read some this thread!

-Robert

Still, I would think that it'd be the first thing to check off the list...

[Bud]

Let's set hormone levels aside for a moment. Did anyone check between this athelete's legs? Wouldn't that settle things very quickly? :oops:

Still, I would think that it'd be the first thing to check off the list...

She may possess a micropenis... that resembles female genitalia :|

[heycal]

She may possess a micropenis... that resembles female genitalia :|

Is a micropenis a real thing? I thought my friend just made it up as a disparaging insult.

[Steady Eddy]

How come no one's said "gender bender" yet? The media loves that ryhme..

[Bud]

Is a micropenis a real thing? I thought my friend just made it up as a disparaging insult.

It's real... wanna see a pic? :twisted:

[Steady Eddy]

^^You have a pic of one? I wouldn't admit it. No good can possible come from admitting such a thing.

[Bud]

^^You have a pic of one? I wouldn't admit it. No good can possible come from admitting such a thing.

:oops::oops:

I was joking :lol:

However, Google it and you'll see it's a real condition :wink:

[Steady Eddy]

However, Google it and you'll see it's a real condition :wink:
No thanks. I'll just take your word for it.

[Sentinel]

Let's set hormone levels aside for a moment. Did anyone check between this athelete's legs? Wouldn't that settle things very quickly? :oops:
I don;t think that brilliant idea occured to anyone. But the girls were wondering what that five-o-clock shadow was doing there.

[Sentinel]

It is too bad that all of this was made public and so soon, but the 'girl' is proving to be resilient so far and she has the support of her community and country regardless of the outcome. No race or sport is worth destroying someone.

-Robert
That's a really kind thought. I read that in India Santhi Souderajan attempted suicide due to ill-treatment and stigma etc. Seems she now has a coaching academy or something and has produced some good half-milers.

[Sentinel]

Offtopic but running related.
Was seeing a program on Nat Geo. Shows ostriches which of course run on 2 legs like humans, but can run at 50-60 kms per hour. Thin legs, awkward bodies but 60 kmph !!!!!!

**** !!!!

[albino smurf]

this is just sad at this point.

[Bud]

Offtopic but running related.
Was seeing a program on Nat Geo. Shows ostriches which of course run on 2 legs like humans, but can run at 50-60 kms per hour. Thin legs, awkward bodies but 60 kmph !!!!!!

**** !!!!

Aren't they like 8 feet tall, though? :)

Some other facts from Wikipedia:
They have been clocked as high as 72 km/h (45 mph)
Can grow to 9.2 feet tall (males)
Can weigh nearly 350 lbs. (males)
Have an eye diameter of approximately 2" (largest of any land vertebrate)

[Sentinel]

72 kmph on TWO legs....... maan, i can keep dreaming !!! :-D

the TV program showed that they run on their toes, and iirc, each stride is 2 or 2.5 meters long. They then made some contraption so a girl could run ostrich-like. They timed here striding across a football (soccer) field, and said she was striding at 35 kmph.

[Sentinel]

There's talk of a race over 700 meters between Bolt and Bekele. :-D

And for those of us who love fighting over the GOAT topic and how "arrogant" Roger is, Bekele says he is the greatest.

Bekele Thinks He, Not Gebrselassie, Is the Greatest Distance Runner

http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/

[chess9]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6158424/Caster-Semenyas-gender-test-results-force-IAAF-to-call-in-outside-help.html

Gender tests were sufficiently complex that more experts have been called in.

Though the results will not be made public, if 'she' runs her next race as a man, or stops running altogether, we will know she is not entirely female with a modicum of certainty.

-Robert

[Moz]

There's talk of a race over 700 meters between Bolt and Bekele. :-D

And for those of us who love fighting over the GOAT topic and how "arrogant" Roger is, Bekele says he is the greatest.


http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/

Must admit you can't deny Bekele this title. He is the consumate racer. His record is incredible.

He has now won 29 5 and 10k's in a row. He has never been beaten over 10k. He holds the indoor and outdoor records for the 5k and 10k and 11 world cross country titles and this year became the first man ever to win both the 5 and 10k at the world champs. He's still in his 20's.

One man whose arrogance isn't misplaced - particularly as he isn't given his due in international sport. Federer's domination is nothing like this guy's.

Bekele has a best of 3:32 over 1500m and would destroy Bolt over 700m - no contest. 500 - 600m would seem more appropriate.

[Sentinel]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6158424/Caster-Semenyas-gender-test-results-force-IAAF-to-call-in-outside-help.html

Gender tests were sufficiently complex that more experts have been called in.

Though the results will not be made public, if 'she' runs her next race as a man, or stops running altogether, we will know she is not entirely female with a modicum of certainty.

-Robert
Not likely she'll run as a man.

She could stop running due to the pressures, embarassment and ambiguity. What if they can't prove it, but the rumors follow her everywhere ? That could make her quit.

[chess9]

Yes, I suspect her career may be over if s-he refuses to run as a man.

-Robert

[chess9]

This web site says s-he is an hermaphrodite: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26056981-401,00.html

This web site says s-he is a 'woman' but that more information is needed: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=4&art_id=nw20090910134824220C968200

Note that the IAAF has asked 4 recent athletes to quit competing, ostensibly as females.

"Now, let's just very quickly look at the claims - the presence of testes, and the absence of a uterus, would suggest that she is genetically male (has a Y chromosome, possibly XY, possibly XXY). In order to develop as a female, she may be insensitive to androgens, or have a deficiency in an enzyme in the androgen pathway. This means that if the reports are accurate, she may have AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) or alpha-5-reductase deficiency, or possibly a genetic abnormality that is much rarer than these (which are pretty uncommon themselves) and results in the development of an under-masculinized male (there are three categories of condition - under-masculinized males, masculinized females and hermaphrodites).

What people need to know is that AIS, if complete, as well as alpha-5-reductase deficiency, are both conditions which the IAAF policy says are "allowed". The problem is with partial AIS, where it becomes a decision around whether she has an advantage or not. And that is exactly the same position as we were in before, though now we have a possible biological piece of the puzzle to add to yesterday's debate."-Dr. Ross Tucker
-Robert

[Sentinel]

Keep us posted, chess9.

Thx.

[Objective Danny]

What did I tell you! I knew she was a man!

He should be banned from the sport!

[raiden031]

What did I tell you! I knew she was a man!

He should be banned from the sport!

[S]he should just compete from now on with the men.

[chess9]

Apparently, the USOC has a history of allowing many intersexed females compete as females on a finding that they got no significant benefit from the condition.

One of the interesting issues in this debate is that this runner may find out s-he has testes and can avoid the almost inevitable cancer that occurs with the condition by having them out. Then SHE can compete as a female.

-Robert

[Lee James]

I think that what's really sad about this is that not only does she find this out now, but the fact that the world is finding it out with her. Just can't imagine how I'd feel to hear I'm technically a woman in certain ways at that age and having the whole world know about it. Granted, I'm sure there were days when she felt or thought she wasn't quite like every other woman, but still, sad. I just think this could have been handled a lot better, and played more closely to the vest by all parties involved.

[chess9]

I think that what's really sad about this is that not only does she find this out now, but the fact that the world is finding it out with her. Just can't imagine how I'd feel to hear I'm technically a woman in certain ways at that age and having the whole world know about it. Granted, I'm sure there were days when she felt or thought she wasn't quite like every other woman, but still, sad. I just think this could have been handled a lot better, and played more closely to the vest by all parties involved.

No kidding.... "Hey Lee, I heard you flunked your DNA GENDER TEST!" said in a loud voice at the club on a Saturday afternoon. :) No wonder the South African people are almost uniformly PISSED OFF.

Having said that, s-he must have long suspected something wasn't right in the knickers department.

-Robert

[Moz]

This saga is in danger of turning into the Crying Game.

[chess9]

This saga is in danger of turning into the Crying Game.

LOL! Well spotted. With the ANC involved, maybe we can wrangle a race war out of it.

Oh, did that sound like hyperbole? Check this out! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6174711/Caster-Semenya-Sports-minister-warns-of-world-war.html

-Robert

[Bud]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/SPORT/09/11/athletics.semenya.gender.iaaf/art.vertical.jpg


"The international governing body for athletics urged caution Friday after reports that the world-champion South African runner Caster Semenya has both male and female organs.

The front cover of You magazine shows Semenya after a recent makeover.

The Sydney Morning Herald in Australia and The Sun newspaper in Britain reported that gender tests ordered by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) show the 18-year-old is a hermaphrodite."


http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/09/11/athletics.semenya.gender.iaaf/index.html

[chess9]

Talk about over the top....Sheezh....Almost laughable if it weren't so tragic.

S-he is probably not technically hermaphroditic, since it's being reported s-he doesn't have two full sets of gonads. S-he apparently has a set of internal testicles that should be surgically removed to prevent the oft occurring cancer that develops in them.

-Robert

[pabletion]

no, but maybe having a penis AND a vagina qualify as a medical condition.
That could be one guess..... maybe shes hermaphrodyte, or has a hormonal imbalance, but that chick, er.., dude...., that person doesnt look all female.

I called it! Chick with a..............richard

[raiden031]

I think that what's really sad about this is that not only does she find this out now, but the fact that the world is finding it out with her. Just can't imagine how I'd feel to hear I'm technically a woman in certain ways at that age and having the whole world know about it. Granted, I'm sure there were days when she felt or thought she wasn't quite like every other woman, but still, sad. I just think this could have been handled a lot better, and played more closely to the vest by all parties involved.

Of course she knew she wasn't normal and could be a hermaph, but I think she was told by somebody not to worry about it because there's nothing disqualifying on the outside. I mean has she never been to a doctor before? I'm sure a doctor would suggest the possibility given that she has the build of a man, a mustache, and a deep voice.

[Sentinel]

Hey gentlemen, can we atleast show enough respect to call her "she" instead of "s-he" or "[s]he" etc.
For she is as she was born, in her natural state.

[ubermeyer]

Hey gentlemen, can we atleast show enough respect to call her "she" instead of "s-he" or "[s]he" etc.
For she is as she was born, in her natural state.

but (s)he's kind of in the middle as far as gender goes...

[Bud]

I called it! Chick with a..............richard

So... you're a hermaphrodite expert :-D

[chess9]

Hey gentlemen, can we atleast show enough respect to call her "she" instead of "s-he" or "[s]he" etc.
For she is as she was born, in her natural state.

Until we know what sex she is, you prefer the default designation? ;)

We need a BRIGHT LINE on gender in sports in fairness to the women competitors. I'm sure CinCin doesn't want to be competing against some "Charlita" with a moustache and voice that makes Tennnessee Ernie Ford sound like a castrato.

-Robert

[chess9]

I called it! Chick with a..............richard

No 'richard', but s-he could take over for Hillary. ;)

-Robert

[chess9]

Semenya withdraws from race. Isn't feeling so pretty good. ;)
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930

-Robert

[Bud]

Semenya withdraws from race. Isn't feeling so pretty good. ;)
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Semenya-withdraws-from-race-amidst-reports-she-s?urn=oly,188930

-Robert

"Yesterday, unsubstantiated reports from Australia and England said that Semenya's tests showed that she has no womb or ovaries and produces testosterone levels three times higher than a normal woman."

:oops:

[chess9]

I hear s-he has a new sponsor: Gillette. ;)

-Robert

[pabletion]

So... you're a hermaphrodite expert :-D

hahaha wise guy eh???????????

that was my guess, cause she does have manly features and I didnt think she was on any kind of 'hormonal treatment', as cheating or something like that.

Its not her fault, but poor girl, to have to deal with that at this age.

[Bud]

hahaha wise guy eh???????????

that was my guess, cause she does have manly features and I didnt think she was on any kind of 'hormonal treatment', as cheating or something like that.

Its not her fault, but poor girl, to have to deal with that at this age.

Just because she looks, speaks, runs, dresses like a man and has thick facial hair? :oops:

I can't believe her gender wasn't questioned prior to this. She and/or her parents had to realize she had no ovaries and no womb. Based on that, I assume Semenya also did not get her period.

Like someone else stated... it may be a blessing in disguise since 'testicular' cancer in people like Semenya is extremely high. This 'discovery' may have saved her life.

[Sentinel]

The world champion 800 metres runner Caster Semenya was subjected to humiliating sex tests in South Africa before her triumph in Berlin last month, her former coach said.
The claims by Wilfred Daniels contradict repeated denials from the country’s athletics chiefs that any such tests took place.
Mr Daniels, who has resigned over the issue, told Johannesburg’s Star newspaper that Semenya, 18, was left “humiliated and distressed” by the tests, which were carried out at a hospital in Pretoria at the behest of Athletics South Africa (ASA). He said that her feet were placed in stirrups during the examination and that her genitals were photographed.
“The worst part was that she thought she was going for doping tests ... She was in no way prepared for what happened,” Mr Daniels was quoted as saying.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article6837572.ece

[Bud]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article6837572.ece

"Caster Semenya was forced to have sex test, coach says..." :shock:

[Sentinel]

^^
I wonder BY WHOM.

:-D

[chess9]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6209525/Caster-Semenya-Leaked-email-forces-apology-from-SA-chief.html

"The head of South African athletics has apologised to the country for his mishandling of the Caster Semenya controversy, after admitting that a gender test was carried out on the teenager prior to last month’s World Championships in Berlin. "

-Robert

[PCXL-Fan]

One thing i find odd, is that this topic is discussed on a number of forums but in comparison to other topics its fairly devoid of any women (in comparison to males) discussing this. This being an issue in female sports impacting women, i find that odd. (where are all the female members of this forum for example)

I wonder if it could be because after rightly pushing to fight to get into so many areas wrongly exclusive to men, that now the tables are turn a good portion of them would rather keep silent then show they are against something that could threaten their gender exclusivity in an area of society (this case being female sport's top podiums).

In america its acceptable for women to criticize behavioural trends/traits of men, but unacceptable for men to criticize trends/traits of women.

[Bud]

One thing i find odd, is that this topic is discussed on a number of forums but in comparison to other topics its fairly devoid of any women (in comparison to males) discussing this. This being an issue in female sports impacting women, i find that odd. (where are all the female members of this forum for example)

I wonder if it could be because after pushing to rightly fighting to get into so many areas exclusive to men, that now the tables are turn a good portion of them would rather keep silent then show that they are against something that could threaten their sport.

In america its acceptable for women to criticize behavioural trends/traits of men, but unacceptable for men to criticize trends/traits of women.

That's a good observation :)

Yeah, double standard as far as the bolded portion. C'est la vie :-P

[chess9]

I don't think that's it. I think most women are revolted that this poor woman has been subjected to the international sneers, smears, and sex innendoes of millions of males. If I were a woman, I'd find it all very disturbing, if not tawdry. But, I'll await CinCin to come and clear things up, since I do have an X and Y chromosomal pairing, so my objectivity is questionable. :)

-Robert

[AAAA]

One thing i find odd, is that this topic is discussed on a number of forums but in comparison to other topics its fairly devoid of any women (in comparison to males) discussing this. This being an issue in female sports impacting women, i find that odd. (where are all the female members of this forum for example)

I wonder if it could be because after rightly pushing to fight to get into so many areas wrongly exclusive to men, that now the tables are turn a good portion of them would rather keep silent then show they are against something that could threaten their gender exclusivity in an area of society (this case being female sport's top podiums).

In america its acceptable for women to criticize behavioural trends/traits of men, but unacceptable for men to criticize trends/traits of women.

Most of the posts are discussing whether Caster is classified as s/he. I'm interested in the ramifications for the sport, whether Semenya will be allowed to compete in future? A life has effectively been ruined. I don't understand how it was allowed to reach this stage.

[chess9]

Well, her life needn't be ruined, and, in fact, this may help a lot of people understand that gender isn't quite so black and white, and maybe we've all (or many of us) had some quaint outmoded ideas about gender. Even if s-he is of mixed gender, so what? Semenya is a human being, and that fact should be in our focus at all times.

Semenya appears to be well centered, and handling this affair appropriately. We might be surprised at how this all turns out, and pleasantly so.

-Robert

[Bud]

"The president of Athletics South Africa has admitted that he lied about gender tests on runner Caster Semenya before her gold-medal win at the World Athletics Championships last month."

"After receiving the results of the tests, the South Africa team doctor requested the 18-year-old Semenya be withdrawn from the 800-meter race she ended up winning, Chuene said.

"But Chuene said he refused to do it because the sport's international governing body did not request withdrawal. He also said withdrawing Semenya might have looked bad."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/09/19/athletics.caster.semenya.chuene/index.html

- - - - - - - - - -

The SA athletic body knew before Semenya ran the now infamous race that they should have withdrawn her from competition, based on the gender test results that were conducted at least a week before the event.

So, her own country sacrificed her for a probable gold medal... and then tried to play the victim card when questions arose. Just despicable.

[flyinghippos101]

Until we know what sex she is, you prefer the default designation? ;)

We need a BRIGHT LINE on gender in sports in fairness to the women competitors. I'm sure CinCin doesn't want to be competing against some "Charlita" with a moustache and voice that makes Tennnessee Ernie Ford sound like a castrato.

-Robert

Till we are absolutely certain of her gender, we can refer to her/him as mary carillo

[Sentinel]

One thing i find odd, is that this topic is discussed on a number of forums but in comparison to other topics its fairly devoid of any women (in comparison to males) discussing this. This being an issue in female sports impacting women, i find that odd. (where are all the female members of this forum for example)

I wonder if it could be because after rightly pushing to fight to get into so many areas wrongly exclusive to men, that now the tables are turn a good portion of them would rather keep silent then show they are against something that could threaten their gender exclusivity in an area of society (this case being female sport's top podiums).

In america its acceptable for women to criticize behavioural trends/traits of men, but unacceptable for men to criticize trends/traits of women.

PCXL, the reason its only been men here discussing, is because the thread is athletics related, and I think we're mostly runner/ex-athletes here.
Also, we've been discussing from the perspective of how do you determine gender.

Well put in a previous post, she's a human being first. I feel sad reading the previous post.

[Bud]

Most of the posts are discussing whether Caster is classified as s/he. I'm interested in the ramifications for the sport, whether Semenya will be allowed to compete in future? A life has effectively been ruined. I don't understand how it was allowed to reach this stage.

It seems that SA Athletic Commission had Semenya gender tested prior to the Berlin race but decided to pan the recommendation of pulling her from the competition... probably because they wanted a gold medal. Now, look at the mess they caused by lying to the world.

[Bud]

Athletics chief faces quit calls over Semenya

PRETORIA, South Africa (CNN) -- A South African government minister called on Leonard Chuene to resign after the national athletics chief admitted he knew Caster Semenya had undergone a gender test prior to the world championships.

Chuene was forced into a humiliating climbdown after previously denying that Semenya had been tested before going to Berlin to win the women's 800m title.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/SPORT/09/20/athletics.caster.semenya.chuene.oosthuizen/art.semenya.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/09/20/athletics.caster.semenya.chuene.oosthuizen/index.html

[chess9]

"Boys Will Be Boys". http://www.globerunner.org/blog/?p=235

"I doubt I am the only one who feels that Semenya could have run that world final some four or five seconds faster, had she been so inclined. Which is to say, somewhat faster than the world record of Jarmila Kratochvilova of then Czechoslovakia who, I daresay, without fear of contradiction, everyone feels must have been using drugs to achieve that time of 1.53.28 back in 1983."

Exactly my views. Watching the race, one can see Semenya won quite easily. If she'd been pressed, or even 'rabbitted' by a strong male runner, she might have run 1:50.

Why should Semenya be allowed to run as a female? To do so would destroy womens' athletics.

-Robert

[Sentinel]

^^ I wonder who the British (female?) athlete is whom he does not mention (drug suspect).

The Indian girl mentioned is hoping that if Semenya is cleared, then she (the indian girl Soundarajan) could ask for her medal back.

[Sentinel]

Another sad tale:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/27102009/3/andreas-won-gold-doping-victim-heidi.html

[chess9]

Another sad tale:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/27102009/3/andreas-won-gold-doping-victim-heidi.html

Yes. Krieger is a tragedy, but he sounds as though he's got his head together these days.

-Robert

[albino smurf]

I feel bad for making light of this situation. Sorry world. This is a terrible story and I feel really sorry for Ms. Semenya.

[Serve em Up]

People need to lay off of this poor woman.

People have different traits: How is naturally occurring testosterone levels any different than being tall, muscular, or any other trait.

Until someone can demonstrate that she is not a lady, by virtue of physical structure, or is in some way artificial via use of steroids/ synthatic testosterone etc, her win should stand.

[Bud]

People need to lay off of this poor woman.

People have different traits: How is naturally occurring testosterone levels any different than being tall, muscular, or any other trait.

Until someone can demonstrate that she is not a lady, by virtue of physical structure, or is in some way artificial via use of steroids/ synthatic testosterone etc, her win should stand.

She's a hermaphrodite... read the rest of the thread :oops:

[chess9]

People need to lay off of this poor woman.

People have different traits: How is naturally occurring testosterone levels any different than being tall, muscular, or any other trait.

Until someone can demonstrate that she is not a lady, by virtue of physical structure, or is in some way artificial via use of steroids/ synthatic testosterone etc, her win should stand.

This woman wasn't well served by her Athletic Association. She should have been tested and counseled long before this matter got this far. It is tragic for her, but she will come to some accomodation-emotionally-about all of this once it's been sorted biologically. She has to. She can only accept herself.

This is a bitter pill for her to swallow, but she will get past this.

Meanwhile, I don't think she should race with the women. It's not fair to the other women.

-Robert

[Bud]

This woman wasn't well served by her Athletic Association. She should have been tested and counseled long before this matter got this far. It is tragic for her, but she will come to some accomodation-emotionally-about all of this once it's been sorted biologically. She has to. She can only accept herself.

This is a bitter pill for her to swallow, but she will get past this.

Meanwhile, I don't think she should race with the women. It's not fair to the other women.

-Robert

I believe her athletic association knew but did not disclose the facts (it was a breaking news story). IIRC, the SA athletic director also resigned over this debacle.

[chess9]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6508147/Caster-Semenya-affair-Athletics-South-Africa-president-suspended.html

"In the desert of the heart
Let the healing fountain start."-W.H. Auden

-Robert

[Sentinel]

Athletics South Africa (ASA) has issued a formal apology to women's 800 metres world champion Caster Semenya for their handling of her gender verification tests.
"Athletics South Africa wishes to publicly and unconditionally apologise to Caster Semenya and her family, the president of South Africa as well as to all South Africans for the handling of her gender verification processes and the subsequent aftermath," ASA said in a statement Thursday.
"ASA's board will lead a delegation to meet with Caster, her family and government for discussions on the matter," it added.
The apology comes in the wake of an African National Congress (ANC) statement last month which said they thought the ASA and its doctor had a case to answer.
"They could have handled the matter better. They could have taken the leadership of the country into confidence and avoided lying with regard to their role in this saga," the ANC said.


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/05112009/2/asa-apologises-semenya-gender-tests.html

[Bud]

Athletics South Africa (ASA) has issued a formal apology to women's 800 metres world champion Caster Semenya for their handling of her gender verification tests.
"Athletics South Africa wishes to publicly and unconditionally apologise to Caster Semenya and her family, the president of South Africa as well as to all South Africans for the handling of her gender verification processes and the subsequent aftermath," ASA said in a statement Thursday.
"ASA's board will lead a delegation to meet with Caster, her family and government for discussions on the matter," it added.
The apology comes in the wake of an African National Congress (ANC) statement last month which said they thought the ASA and its doctor had a case to answer.
"They could have handled the matter better. They could have taken the leadership of the country into confidence and avoided lying with regard to their role in this saga," the ANC said.


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/05112009/2/asa-apologises-semenya-gender-tests.html

They lied, allowing her to compete for a (good) chance to win them a gold medal... and subsequently exposed her unusual condition to world scrutiny.

Nice going SA... you should be proud!

[chess9]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/11/19/athletics.semenya.test.gold/index.html

Her running career is over. When will "his" begin?

-Robert

[Topaz]

One thing i find odd, is that this topic is discussed on a number of forums but in comparison to other topics its fairly devoid of any women (in comparison to males) discussing this. This being an issue in female sports impacting women, i find that odd. (where are all the female members of this forum for example)

I wonder if it could be because after rightly pushing to fight to get into so many areas wrongly exclusive to men, that now the tables are turn a good portion of them would rather keep silent then show they are against something that could threaten their gender exclusivity in an area of society (this case being female sport's top podiums).

In america its acceptable for women to criticize behavioural trends/traits of men, but unacceptable for men to criticize trends/traits of women.

I have been following this thread, but haven't posted until now. Most of the women on *this* board are pretty well trained to 'keep on moving' when we see a thread with such clear gender implications (with me and Cindy being the possible exceptions!). This is also in the 'rants and raves' subforum, which I know I tend to stay out of.

And why? Well, for me, I've been called lots of nasty and vicious names when I even dare to enter into gender discussions. Just not worth my time and effort. Look at some of the disrespectful and juvenile stuff posted about women, just not on this thread, but on this whole board on a daily basis.

When I first read this story (and I read it when it broke since I also run and follow a running forum) my first reaction was sadness and pity for Caster. She has a lot more pain and suffering to face than probably any of us can imagine. I read much more in the personal side of this story than any implication on sports...that part is secondary in my mind.

That's a good observation :)

Yeah, double standard as far as the bolded portion. C'est la vie :-P

Actually, no, it isn't a good observation. Just read this board. Men criticize traits of women every day. 'Ugly, too fat, too skinny, no butt, butterface, etc etc'.

I don't think that's it. I think most women are revolted that this poor woman has been subjected to the international sneers, smears, and sex innendoes of millions of males. If I were a woman, I'd find it all very disturbing, if not tawdry. But, I'll await CinCin to come and clear things up, since I do have an X and Y chromosomal pairing, so my objectivity is questionable. :)

-Robert

Robert, you are right on.

Till we are absolutely certain of her gender, we can refer to her/him as mary carillo

And here is just one comment that I will quote as an example...oh, we should give him an award, he dissed two females in one sentence! That takes talent!



Well put in a previous post, she's a human being first. I feel sad reading the previous post.

Sentinel, well put and worth repeating...she is a human first. Not an object.

[Sentinel]

Caster Semenya will keep her world gold 800 medal and the results of her gender testing will not be made public, the South African sports ministry said Thursday. The ministry said Semenya's lawyers, South Africa's government and the IAAF athletics' world governing body had reached "total agreement" on her title won amid a storm over her gender at the Berlin championships in August.


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/19112009/3/semenya-keep-gold-medal-despite-gender-probe.html

[chess9]

Caster Semenya will keep her world gold 800 medal and the results of her gender testing will not be made public, the South African sports ministry said Thursday. The ministry said Semenya's lawyers, South Africa's government and the IAAF athletics' world governing body had reached "total agreement" on her title won amid a storm over her gender at the Berlin championships in August.


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/19112009/3/semenya-keep-gold-medal-despite-gender-probe.html

Yes, but notice no one is saying she will be running any races. I suspect her running career may be over. But, if she keeps training and improving she might come back and run as a male. Also, surgery is occasionally recommended in cases like this, so she might have surgery and return to running as a female after her testes are removed.

-Robert